A conversation with Laskas (Kasongo Kaloka), recorded October 20, 1974, at J. Fabian’s home in Lubumbashi.
|1. F: ...na: kila mara tunaanza tu na: na ulizo/ sasa wee
uli: ulizaliwa wapi?
L: minazaliwa na Kalemie/
F: na Kalemie?
F: ahaah/ mu mwa: mwaka gani?
L: mille neuf cent cinquante/
F: cinquante/ munaangaliki batoto/
F: sasa uko vingt-quatre:
F: na: ulikomea Kalemie?
L: hapana/ minakomea Kalemie na deux ans: nakuwa kufanya Lubumbashi cinq ans:
F: cinq ans?
L: oui/ après: Likasi: ilikuwa: un an/
F: ulifwata: wazazi?
L: ndiyo/ mais wazazi waliisha kupotea...
F: wote wawili?
L: wote wawili: minabakia mu mukono ya wanduku tu/
F: ya wanduku?
L: ndiyo/ distants/
F: tangu utoto?
L: tangu utoto eh/
L: na hivi sasa minatumika kazi/
L: minabakia mi moya sasa/
F: ulibapotea namna gani? paka pa: paka pa ku vita ao?
L: hapana/ balikufia paka hivi moya moya kama kiyana/
F: aah/ mm/ [pauses] Kalemie/ na banduku balikuwa ku Gécamines?
L: minafanya engagement mi moya/
F: hapa sasa?
F: wale wanduku walikuwa tu: na kazi ingine/
L: moya: moya alikuwa à l’Union Minière/ gendarme/
F: mm/ kweli bamingi balikuwa: balikuwa bamingi balikuwa gendarmes/
L: sh/ [chuckles]
F: ah: kumbe: ulifwata masomo Lubumbashi?
F: ulianza: na: na: na primaire?
L: minafwata Lubumbashi na: sixième/ minaisha na prémière CO/
F: prémière CO:
L: ndiyo/ njo mwisho: kuongeza Likasi deuxième CO: minaacha/
F: ahah/ uliacha: ulichoka?
L: hapana/ [chuckles] akili iliisha/
F: akili iliisha?
F: [chuckles] mu deuxième CO?
L: kiisha: nilipata mayele: alafu mianaona: ...?... mi sahabu: kiisha wakati/
L: sawa vile don yangu nilipata ile: nilizo: nilizoeza paka vile: kupenta paka peintures sawa vile/
|1. F: ...we always start with a question. Where were you
L: I was born in Kalemie.
F: In Kalemie?
F: I see. What year was that?
L: Nineteen fifty.
F: Fifty. You people are still children.
F: Now you are twenty-four.
F: And did you grow up in Kalemie?
L: No. Growing up I lived in Kalemie for two years, five years in Lubumbashi.
F: Five years?
L: Yes. After that it was one year in Likasi.
F: You went along with your parents?
L: Yes, but the parents had died...
F: Both of them?
L: Both of them. I was left in the care (lit. the hands) of relatives.
F: Of relatives?
L: Yes. Distant (relatives).
F: Since you were a child.
L: Since I was a child, yes.
L: And now I am working.
L: I live by myself now.
F: How did you lose (your parents)? Was it in the war?
L: No. They just died one after the other when they were still young.
F: I see. Mm. [pauses] Kalemie. And your relatives worked for Gécamines?
L: I got the job myself.
F: Just recently?
F: Those relatives had other jobs.
L: (Except) one who was a security guard at the Union Minière.
F: A security guard?
F: Mm. True, there were many who worked as security guards.
L: Well. [chuckles]
F: So, you went to school in Lubumbashi?
F: You started in primary school?
L: In Lubumbashi I got to sixth grade. The I finished the first grade of CO.
F: First grade CO.
L: Yes. That was it. In Likasi I went on with second grade CO but I dropped out.
F: I see, You dropped out. Were you tired of it?
L: No [chuckles]. I had reached my limit.
F: You had reached your limit?
F: [chuckles] In second grade CO?
F: And then?
L: Then I came up with an idea but I saw ...?... I forgot about it after a while.
L: I had this gift and I took up the habit of just painting pictures.
F: I see.
|2. F: mais ulianza na peinture namna gani?
L: peinture: njo kusema: nilianza tangu nilizala mutoto nilikuwa ...?... kupima na crayon:
L: fanya croquis: mi iko: favorable: sawa ku watu/
L: petit à petit: minaanza ku ...?... peinture: mais peinture yangu nalianza ...?... ilikuwa flou/ alafu mina ...?... ya ku ?abirer ma: madessins mingi mingi ya bantu/
L: et puis mina: minakata ile ma...?...
F: peinture yako ilikuwa flou?
F: flou namna gani?
L: ça veut dire ...?... dessiner bintu: nalikuwaka tu capté/
F: eeh/ ulipenta: ile wakati ulipenta nani? paka penti ya: sawa hii penti ya mafuta ao?
L: hapana peinture ya mafuta/
L: parce-que: yee iko introuvable...?...sawa mwetu/
L: tubes: mais: très rare ça/
F: ...?.../ si ulifunda kwa: kwa muntu wenye kujua peinture?
L: hata siko moja/
F: hata siku moya/
F: bon: ulienda: kumbe: ulitoka ku masomo/
F: ulikuwa na mwaka sawa: quatorze?
L: ku masomo? minatoka na mwaka kumi na sita/
F: kumi na sita/
F: ulitafuta kazi?
L: kupata: hapana/
L: sh [chuckles]]
L: ndiyo minabakia paka na peinture huyu/
F: hii wakati hii?
L: ndiyo/ dépuis soixante: soixante-onze:
F: soixante-onze: non/ ulipasha: kama ulikuwa se: seize ans:
F: ulipasha: kuwa na soixante-six/ soixante-six ulianza?
F: si ulizalikwa: ulizalikwa nani: eh: cinquante?
L: soixante-six mi nilianza kufanya mais: mi hapana kuuzisha/
F: [overlapping] hapana kuuzisha/
L: minafanya minaweka mu nyumba yangu/
F: mais ile wakati ulianza: ulikuwa plus: Likasi?
L: minaanza tangu ku mukini/
F: non non/ sawa mu soixante-six:
L: oui/ mu soixante-six niko pa Kalemie/ minaanza minapenta...
L: oui oui/
F: ulirudia tena kuwa kule?
L: nilikuwa kule soixante-six/ soixante-cinq: hapa/
F: soixante-cinq hapa?
L: hapa Lubumbashi/
F: soixante-six: kule?
L: soixante-six kule/
F: ulibakia mwaka ngapi?
L: nilifanya mwaka moya/
F: mwaka moya tu?
|2. F: But how (exactly) did you begin with painting?
L: Painting – I began with it (almost) from birth, when I was a child...?...I tried with a pencil.
L: Making sketches, people liked it.
F: I see.
L: Slowly, I began with...?... painting. But when I started painting...?... it was fluent and I ...?... made lots of pictures of people.
L: And then I cut those...?...
F: Your painting was fluent?
F: How so, fluent?
L: It means...?... drawing things was something that just captivated me.
F: I see. What kind of paint did you use then, just oil paint, or?
L: No oil paint
L: Because it cannot be found here where we live.
F: (By oil paint I mean the kind that comes in) tubes.
L: In tubes, but that is very rare.
F: ...?... Did you train with someone who knew painting?
F: Not at all.
L: Not a single day.
F: Not a single day.
F: Alright, so then you left school.
F: You were about fourteen.
L: (When) I left school? I left when I was sixteen.
F: You looked for work?
F: Finding (some)?
L: Finding – no.
L: Sh [chuckles].
F: You were unemployed?
L: Yes, all I had was just the painting.
F: At that time?
L: Yes, until seventy-one.
F: Seventy-one – no, it would have been when you were sixteen.
F: It would have been in sixty-six. You started in sixty-six?
L: In sixty-six.
F: Weren’t you born in, when was it again, in fifty?
L: That’s right.
L: In sixty-six I started making (paintings) but did not sell them.
F: [overlapping] Without selling them.
L: I kept what I made in my house.
F: But at the time when you started (painting) you were no longer in Likasi?
L: I began when I was still (living) in the village.
F: No, no, I mean in sixty-six.
L: Yes, in sixty-six I was in Kalemie. I began painting...
F: ... in Kalemie?
L: Yes, yes.
F: So you returned to stay there?
L: I was there in sixty-six, in sixty-five (I was) here.
F: In sixty-five (you were) here?
L: Here in Lubumbashi.
F: I see.
F: And in sixty-six your were there (in Kalemie)?
L: In sixty-six (I was) there.
F: How many years did you stay there?
L: I did one year.
F: Just one year?
|3. F: kule Kalemie uliona baartistes
balifanyaka hii tableaux?
L: hapana: kulikuwa muntu moya: ni muntu moya mbali sana: minazani alikuwa: Kigoma: ou bien Tanzania comme ça/ moya alikuwa: alikuwa anafanya siku moya moya tu anafanyafanya: mais:
F: muntu wa Tanzania?
F: mm/ alif: yee alifanyaka matableaux gani?
L: he? yee anafan: parce-que yee alikuwa kufanya hata ...?...moya/ yulu ya kilalo iko na matari/ maimages iko naona mbali/
F: yeeye: yee inyewe alikala julu ya nani:
L: ya kilalo ya mayi/
L: anaishimama pale anafanya matériaux yake: puis anapenta: tout justement ile: bintu alianza kuona:
L: non non muntu mweusi/
F: [overlapping] hapana/ muntu mweusi?
F: mm/ njo ba: peintre moya: ulikuta kule: mais: hauo: hauono: haukuone ingine?
L: hapana/ sikuone na ingine/
|3. F: In Kalemie, did you see artists there who made this
kind of paintings.
L: No. There was only one like that, someone from far away, I think, from Kigoma or Tanzania, or so. There was one, he worked on certain days only but...
F: A person from Tanzania?
F: Mm. What sort of pictures did he make?
L: What? He was doing one...?... On a bridge that had...?..., images he saw in a distance.
F: I see.
F: What was it he stood on?
L: On a bridge over water.
F: A bridge?
L: He would stand there, prepare his utensils, and then he painted exactly what he saw.
F: A European?
L: No, no. A black man.
F: [overlapping] No. A black man?
F: Mm. So that was one painter you met there but you did not see any other?
L: No, I did not see another.
|4. F: kumbe ulifanya mwaka moya: kurudia:
F: kule Likasi?
F: njo ule: njo kule ulianza kuuzisha?
L: minaanza na Likasi kuuzisha/
F: namna gani? mu: tout un coup ulianza kuuzisha/ bantu baliona kama ah: sasa:
L: [overlapping] il y a: donc: eh...
L: ...ilikuwa présentable: ilikuwa kiloko kiloko/
L: eh/ petit à petit: moya moya nachanger style paka vile/
F: alafu mu Likasi: mulikuwa na: mulikuwa bamingi?
L: mule mu Likasi mulikuwa baartistes mingi sana/
F: mingi sana?
F: kupita Lubumbashi?
L: no non/
F: non non/
L: mu Lubumbashi iko mingi zaidi kupita/
F: eh/ na: na kule: ni kule ulikutana na: na Tshibumba?
L: hapana: Tshibumba: minakutanisha: Kipushi/
L: minakutanisha Tshibumba Kipushi/
|4. F: So you spent a year (in Kalemie and then you)
F: There, (meaning) Likasi?
F: That was where you began selling (paintings)?
L: In Likasi I began selling.
F: (Really) selling?
F: How did it go? All of a sudden you began selling, people saw, ah now...
L: [overlapping] There was something...
F: ... he has grown up.
L: ... that was worth showing even though it was still very little.
F: I see.
L: Yes. Little by little, I changed my style until (it became) what it is now.
F: But in Likasi, were there many of you?
L: In Likasi, there were lots of artists.
F: More than in Lubumbashi?
L: No, no.
F: No, no.
L: In Lubumbashi, there are many more.
F: Yes. And it was there that you met with Tshibumba?
L: No, Tshibumba I met in Kipushi.
F: I see.
L: I met Tshibumba in Kipushi.
|5. bon: ulianza: ulianza ku: penta kule
F: ile wakati ulianza: uliuzisha: tableaux ya namna gani?
L: ni kusema wakati nilianza: nilianza kuuzisha tableaux: donc ni maidées depuis: pale nikingali mutoto: mahistoires balianza tunaconter: minafanya paka ile maidées polepole: kama inatoka bien minaingisha: et puis sourtout photos hii: humu mwetu ni photo moya balipenda sana kwa bantu/
F: photos ya bantu?
F: ya nani: ya?
L: histoire ya humu mwetu...
F: ...ya ya: ya: ya: ya yee: Lumumba/
L: [overlapping] Lumumba/
F: mansula ulifanya?
L: oui/ minafanya hata nsula ya muntu: njo: surtout tout: portraits:
L: mule: minasimama comme ça/ minafanya portraits mu Likasi weee/ hata ya wabibi ya bazungu:
L: bantu mweusi minafanya: ya bakubwa minafanya/ comme ça banazobelea et puis Gécamines nayee ana...?... [claps] ilikuwa sawa chance: mi a: alinituma ku Kipushi / njo na vile na sasa kule/
F: ulipata gani: kazi gani kule?
L: kule baliniweka mineur tuseme/
F: mineur? sasa uko tena na wakati ya ku: penta? si njo unachoka?
L: ah kama mina: minarudia mu kazi saa ilikuwa kumi: minapenta tu vile/
F: kila mara?
F: na banauza?
L: njo sawa banauza paka makati ya prime/ sawa mu le quinze vile:
F: mu le quinze/ ya malipo/
F: ingine bana: banauza ku mandeni?
L: puisque mi hapana penda kukongolesha hapana/
L: ndiyo/ [chuckles]
F: kukongolea hapana/
F: kukongolea hapana/
L: kukongolea iko mubaya puisque: unauza mapeintures: unauza matoiles: et tout ça: mais: hauna profit/
|5. Alright, so that was where you began painting and
F: ...(your) paintings.
F: At that time, when you began selling paintings, what kind were they?
L: That is to say, when I started out selling paintings – well, it was ideas (I got) when I was still very young, stories we used to tell. Slowly I began to paint those ideas. When it came out well I really got into it. And then, it was above all those photograph. Here it was above all one photograph that people really liked.
F: Photographs of people?
F: Of what, of?
L: Of the history here in our country...
F: ...of, of him, Lumumba?
L: [overlapping] Lumumba.
F: So you did faces?
L: Yes. I did above all the face of a person, in other words, portraits.
L: There, in Likasi, I stuck to that, doing portraits for a long time, even (portraits) of the wives of Europeans.
L: I did (portraits) of Africans and of important people. People got used to that – and then it was Gécamines who...?... [claps] it was a chance. They sent me to Kipushi, that’s where I am now.
F: What kind of work did you get there (at Gécamines)?
L: There they gave me (work) as a miner.
F: As a miner? And now you still have the time to paint. Aren’t you tired?
L: Ah, when I get back from work, even at ten o’clock , I just paint.
F: And (people) buy?
L: There (at Gécamines)?
L: The way it is they buy only the get their bonus, like on the fifteenth.
F: On the fifteenth. Payday.
F: Do some buy on credit?
L: Because I don’t like give credit.
L: No. [chuckles]
F: No credit.
F: No credit.
L: Giving credit is bad because you buy the paints, the canvasses, and all that, but you make no profit.
|6. F: mais ile toiles una: unapata wapi?
L: minaona: minauzayo mètre/
F: un mètre?
L: hata deux mètres/
F: na kutayarisha? ulifunda wapi?
F: si unapasha kufunda?
L: kufunda jua peinture?
F: kutayarisha nani: toiles/ mbele ya ku: kuanza naye/
L: mbele ya kuanza naye...
F: [overlapping] ya kuweka nani...
L: ...kiisha mina: minatendre: nani: toile:
L: minapikilia musumari: minakamata latex/
L: oui/ peinture ya mayi/
L: minapakala: après ça kama inakuwa...
F: ...hapana bunga:
L: ya muhogo?
L: bunga ya muhogo ...?... qu’il y a: nani: latex/
F: ya latex/
L: mm/ mina ...?... vile/
L: après ça minafanya croquis: fini basi ..?... [claps]
|6. F: But where do you get the canvasses?
L: I look around and buy (cloth) by the meter.
F: One meter?
L: Even two meters.
F: And where did you learn how to prepare them?
F: You must have learned (how to do this), no?
L: (You mean) study painting?
F: To prepare canvases before you begin with (painting).
L: Before beginning with...
F: [overlapping] before putting...
L: ... then I put the canvas on a stretcher.
L: I nail it (together) and I take latex paint.
L: Yes, watercolor.
L: I put it on and when it is...
F: You don’t work with flour.
L: Manioc flour?
L: (Why) manioc flower...?... if there is latex.
F: Latex paint.
L: Mm. That’s how I work.
L: And then I make a sketch and that’s it. [claps]
|7. F: Laskas: njo ni: jina ya: eh: mina: minashangaa/ ni
L: njo kusema Laskas ni jina: inasignifier mu kyakwetu: laka: bakeni/
F: eh? laka:
L: ndiyo/ ce que veut dire: njo kusema: iko sawa:
F: mu: mu chikwenu ni: ni nini?
L: eh? chaka baki...
F: ...kikwenu ule: lugha yenu ni nini?
L: lugha yetu: tuko baHemba/
F: [pauses] baHemba/ baHemba/ kule Kongolo?
F: donc: la...?
L: laka bakeni/
F: njo iko nini? njo nini? laka?
L: parce que hii ma: minaemployer sawa dessin yangu iko souvenir niko nalaka nayo bantu/
L: pale fasi ile minafika: mina: banauza: inabaka souvenir yangu...
F: mu laka?
L: [overlapping] mu laka: oui/
F: bageni ni: [pauses] ah: laka: bakieni?
F: [pauses, in French] qu’ils restent? kulaka/
F: laka ni: njo nini?
L: laka ça veut dire: ya: ts: pour signifier laka c’est très difficile/ laka:
F: ni mu kiHemba?
L: non/ ...
F: ... ni mu Swahili?
L: c’est en Swahili/ bon/ laka: iko kusema...
F: si njo sawa ra: raka?
L: [overlapping] dire ...?...
L: [overlapping] si iko saw: iko sawa: au revoir/ eh/
F: oui oui/
L: si minasema au revoir: d’accord/
L: iko sawa minaidonner au revoir: mais: kabee yangu ule munabakia naye/
F: mm/ laka bakieni/
F: ulifanya Laskas?
L: ndiyo/ mina: décomposer juu ya: ikuwe mot moya/
L: propre: hee/ [chuckle]/
F: alafu jina yako?
L: jina yangu tu propre Kasongo/
F: [pauses] mais bantu banakufahumu:
L: banafahamu paka Laskas/
F: [chuckles] Laskas/ alafu kama bo banasema Laskas: banajua maana yake? hapana/
L: [overlapping] anasoma Laskas mara moya mais ata: anajua: maana ni: sema ni dessin tu: mais hapana kuyua kintu/
|7. F: Laskas. That is a name I find intriguing. What kind
L:...Laskas is a name that means in our language laka bakeni.
F: What? Laka...
L: Yes. [In French] Which means, it’s like...
F: (When you say) in your language, what is it?
L: What? Chaka baki...
F: ...this language you speak at home, what is it?
L: Our language – we are Hemba.
F: [pauses] Hemba. Hemba. Over there in Kongolo.
F: So (how does it go), la...?
L: Laka bakeni.
F: What is this laka?
L: I use this like my logo, with it I leave a souvenir with the people.
L: Wherever they buy (one of my painting) something remains to remember me by...
F: In the laka.
L: [overlapping] In the laka, yes.
F: Bageni is... [pauses] Ah, (now I understand). Laka bakieni?
F: [pauses, in French] They should remain? Kulaka.
F: What is this laka.
L: Laka means, well, to say what it means is very difficult. Laka...
F: Is this in Hemba?
F: ... is it in Swahili?
L: It’s in Swahili. Alright. Laka is to say...
F: ... is it not something like raka?
L: [overlapping] It is like saying...
L: [overlapping]... goodbye, that’s it.
F: Yes. Yes.
L: Yes, it’s like saying goodbye, right.
L: It is like I am taking my leave but I leave something of mine with you.
F: Mm. Laka bakieni.
F: (And) you made Laskas of it?
L: Yes. I took parts from it to make one word.
F: I see.
L: (A word) of my own. [chuckles]
F: But your (real) name is?
L: My real name is Kasongo.
F: [pauses] But people know you as...
L: They only know Laskas.
F: [chuckles] Laskas. But when they say Laskas do the know what it means? No.
L: [overlapping] If one reads Laskas just once he’ll know it’s just a logo, not what it stands for.
F: I see.
|8. [pauses] ah sasa: mm? sema/
L: unajua kiSwahili: njo kusema unakuwa mwalimu ao ma...
F: hapana/ nilifunza tu ku: nani: ku: nilifunda ku: université: njo kazi yangu/
F: ...?...kufunda Swahili: na kadiri ya: ya nani: ya recherches yetu: sawa Madame anakutana na baartistes: hata mi kama bana: minabaona/ mais juu ya ku: kusumbulia naye: nabo: inafaa:
L: sikilizana vizuri/
F: [overlapping] kusikilizana mu sa: mu Swahili/
F: sawa sasa: wee unasemaka: Français: minasemaka Français: alakini inaachana/
L: inaachana oui oui/ [chuckles]
L: aheh/ hata kiSwahili: mais: sawa kiSwahili ya Kalemie na hii ya huku: inaachana/
F: [overlapping] inaachana/ oui oui/
L: différent kabisa/
L: puisque ya huku iko sawa....
F: ...minaanza kusikia maneno nilitumika ka: tena hata: ku recherches yangu: nilitumika mu: ts: atélier ya: ya Berquin/ Chenge/
F: wee unajua?
L: non non/
F: ule: ule anafanyaka mameubles: sculptés:
L: ah oui/
F: na: tena: nduku yake: ni: peintre artiste/
F: wee una: ku: kuona matableaux yake?
L: mi bado kutembea mingi ...?...
F: beko mu ...?.../
F: na bo banatoka na: Kalemie/
F: bo: na bantu yabo ya kazi bote/ presque bote/ banatoka ku Kalemie/ kumbe niliisha kusikia ile Swahili yabo/
L: puisque hii Swahili ya huku iko tradition/ banamélanger na: ma: langues: mamots ingine ya matribus:
F: oui oui/ ya baLamba: [claps]
L: oui tout ça/ njo inacomposer na wa Swahili ya huku/
F: mm/ hii wakati ulifika hapa: uli: uli: uliona kama ni nguvu ya kufunda?
L: ndiyo mais: nilifika hapa: directement nilianza na kufunda/
L: na siku ...?... ?sept heures na ku hivi/ inafanya sawa na minaabandoner...?..
L: alafu pale niliona famille: anakuwa un peu faible ya: minerval: tout ça: bon: minaabandoner: minatacher paka ku ...?...: minaanza ku...?... mapaysages kiloko kiloko: minaorner paka ku nyumba yetu/
|8. [pauses] Now – yes? Tell (me).
L: You know Swahili, so you must be a teacher (of Swahili) or...
F: No, I have been studying it at the university, that’s my work.
L: I see.
F: ...?... studying Swahili is part of our research. Madame meets with artists, so do I when I see them. But to have a conversation you must...
L: ... understand each other well.
F: [overlapping] Be able to communicate in Swahili.
F: Take (what we are doing) right now. You can speak French, I can speak French, but (if we were to communicate) in French it would be different.
L: Yes, it would be different indeed. [chuckles]
L: Yes. It is Swahili but the Swahili of Kalemie and the one (they speak) here are different.
F: [overlapping] They are different, yes.
L: Really different.
L: Because the local Swahili is like...
F:... I begin to understand (Kalemie Swahili) because for my research I worked in the atelier of Berquin, Chenge (as he is called now).
L: I see.
F: You know about him?
F: He is the one who does carved furniture.
L: Ah, yes.
F: And there is his brother, he is a painter.
L: I see.
F: Have you seen his paintings?
L: I don’t get around a lot.
F: They live in ...?...
F: And they come from Kalemie.
L: I see.
F: All the people who work for them, almost all of them, come from Kalemie. So I have been listening to their Swahili.
L: Because in local Swahili there is a tradition of mixing it with words from tribal languages.
F: Yes, from Lamba, (for instance). [claps]
L: Yes, all that, and that is how local Swahili is made up.
F: Mm. At the time when you came here did you find it difficult to learn.
L: Yes, but as soon as I got here I began learning.
L: (Working on it)...?... seven hours a day. Eventually I had to give up.
L: I saw that the school fees were a bit too much for my family, so I gave up on it and tried it with landscape (painting), little by little, just to embellish our house.
|9. F: sawa uliisha kuoa bibi?
F: mm/ kumbe: sawa sasa uko na kazi yako/ kumbe mineur kule/ mineur ya cote gani?
L: oh: mineur simple/
F: kwan: ya kwanza?
L: ya kwanza/
F: kumbe unapata sawa: [pauses] kama ni trente-cinq Zaire:
F: trente-cinq quarante Zaire?
L: trente-cinq Zaire tu/
F: trente-cinq: na kaprime kaloko vile vile/
L: [chuckles] ...?... [claps] ah: wapi.
L: mwisho: paka trente-cinq/
F: bon/ alors: sawa vile unaendelea na hii kazi: na unauzisha: matableaux: si vile?
L: d’accord/ mais: puisque: siishe kuya: kuuza ba: banduku...?...baZairois: kuuza kwa bantu mingi sana/
F: hau: hau: hauzishe mingi?
L: mi hapana kuuzisha mingi/ minauzisha par mois: peut-être hata trois: deux/
L: deux bule/ puisque mi ...?... sipenda ku: fanya mapaysages mingi ou bien nani: portraits mingi/ minapenda paka portraits ya bantu:
L: kama minafanya hata trois: d’accord par mois ...?... vile vile/ hii ...?...
F: ... tena portraits inaleta bei/
L: aah/ puisque portraits minafanya: trente ?centimètre/
L: minafanya ku eh: nani: deux Zaire cinquante/
F: deux Zaire cinquante/
F: unapata au moins kiloko ya: kuuza boga na ...?...
|9. F: Are you married?
F: Mm. So you have your job as a mine worker. What is your rank?
L: Oh, just a simple miner.
F: On the lowest rank.
L: On the lowest.
F: So you get about... [pauses] something like thirty-five Zaire.
F: Thirty-five, forty Zaire?
L: Just thirty-five Zaire.
F: Thirty-five. And a small bonus as well.
L: [chuckles] ...?... [claps] No way.
L: Just thirty-five net.
F: Alright, so now it seems you are getting somewhere with this work. You are selling paintings, right?
L: Sure, but I have not gotten to the point where, among our Zairian brothers, people buy a whole lot.
F: You don’t sell many?
L: I don’t sell many. I sell about three or two a month.
L: Just two. Because I don’t like to do a lot of landscapes or portraits. What I do like is portraying people.
L: If I do just three per month its o.k., that way...?...
F: ... besides, portraits get a (good) price.
L: Yes. Because the portraits I do, thirty centimeters large...
L: ...I do for two Zaire fifty.
F: Two Zaire fifty.
F: So you make a little something to put on your plate.
|10. F: sawa: kumbe vile wee: wee haupende hii sawa: nani: ule:
ule ndugu yenu: ts: Kapenda?
L: Kap: aah non non/
F: banafanyaka banafanyaka banafanyaka...
L: ule yee hapana artiste hapana/
F: [laughs] ni nani?
L: siyue: iko nauzi: iko na jina yake yee moya/ [chuckles]
L: mais Kapenda anapakala bintu bule: mina: hauna ...?... sikia ni bintu gani/ en une fois par jour: kama ni trois cent: deux cent: même/ ...?.../
L: deux cent tableaux? c’est possible? uni: pakala comme ça?
F: [chuckles] alafu anauzisha/
L: anauzisha trente Makuta/
F: trente Makuta?
L: mais: mitaitirer?
|10. F: So, you don’t like this colleague of yours,
L: Kap(enda), ah no.
F: He (and his partner) just keep turning them out.
L: This guy is not an artist.
F: [laughs] So what is he?
L: I don’t know, he goes on my nerves. He is unique (lit. he has a name all by himself).
L: Kapenda just paints trash, I don’t understand what this is supposed to be. Three hundred, two hundred (paintings) a day, at once.
L: Two hundred paintings, is that possible? To paint like that?
F: [chuckles] But he sells.
F: He keeps selling.
L: He sells them for thirty Makuta.
F: Thirty Makuta?
L: Could I survive (if I would I work for that kind of price)?
|11. hapa sasa: banakuomba: surtout: banakuomba nini?
L: ku batu?
F: clients yang: eh: ye: yako/
L: oui/ ku baclients surtout: beko banalomba mi paka portraits/ ya...
L: oui/ puisque banabakia na muntu: na photo passeport:
L: analomba nifansie: minafanya/
F: ao: mamba muntu?
L: mamba muntu tena: ts: kwangu hawalombe mingi hapana/
F: sawa: sawa be: banaona: ba: banaenda ba: kwa bengine?
L: puisque banauza ile ya baKapenda: ile ya bamatrente: [claps] eh: vingt:
L: [overlapping] dix ya: ça va/
F: [chuckles] inaenea/
F: tena: manani? oa maGécamines: ao mashua: si njo banaomba/ vita?
L: Gécamines na mavita: mais: mi sifanyake hapana/
F: wee haufanye?
L: oui/ minafanya bile bintu paka commande ya muntu: ananipa franga:
L: minaandika ku carnet: minamupa date ya kurétirer tableau yake/
F: njo mwisho?
F: sawa yetu: ulibeba wee: ulifanya tu?
L: hii nilikuwa très pressé/ nafanya hii maneno ya kuwaprésenter tu/
F: très pressé/
F: haukuwa na wakati ya kumaliza?
F: [to himself] haukuwa na wakati/
|11. Right now what (kinds of paintings) are most in
L: Among the people?
F: Among your customers.
L: Yes. Customers are asking above all for portraits of...
L: Yes. They have a passport photo of a person.
L: A person asks me to do a portrait, I do it.
F: Or – what about Mamba Muntu?
L: Mamba Muntu also, but they don’t ask me for many of those.
F: Is it because they see them and go (to buy them) from other painters.
L: What it is, they buy them from the likes of Kapenda, those who do them for thirty, twenty (Makuta).
F: That’s all.
L: [overlapping] Even ten (Makuta), no more.
F: [chuckles] That’s all.
F: Then – what else is there? – don’t they ask (paintings) of the Gécamines smelter or of (the attack on) the train, of the war?
L: Yes, Gécamines and war scenes, but I don’t do those.
F: You don’t?
L: No. This sort of stuff I only do on order for someone who puts down the money.
L: I write it down in a notebook and give him a date when he (can come and) pick up his painting.
F: That’s it?
F: Take the paintings you brought to us, did you just do them (even though you had no orders)?
L: Those -- I really was in a hurry and did them just to show them to you.
F: Really in a hurry?
F: You did not have the time to finish them?
F: [to himself) You did not have the time.
|12. ile unafanya: [pick up painting] ile ya Lumumba:
uliisha kufanya zamani?
L: nilifanya zamani eeh/
F: unafwata nini? unafwata photo? ao?
L: ya Lumbumba?
L: hapana/ minafanya croquis bule/ bichwa...?... [claps] kintu inaisha/
F: sawa ile globe: niliona: niliona kwa ...?... sijue kama ni nini/ kwa nani/ [answers himself] Tshibumba/
L: Tshibumba oui/
F: si njo alikuwa na: na pose moya hivi? Lumumba na: globe ya dunia/
F: mara ingine uliona mu photo? sijui/
L: ah: puisque papier yake ni moya bule inabakiaka/ depuis: alikufa/ ile papier iko paka moya/ fashi yote/
F: fashi yote? ile photo yake?
L: oui oui/
F: ni huyu?
L: paka yee Lumbumba/
F: na ile pose?
L: paka ile ile pose/
F: ni ile banauzishaka mu nani: ma: hata mu magasins?
L: hata malibrairies: nili...?...
L: oui: par accident: mais: ts: kama inapata tu ...?...
F: mm/ kumbe wee ulifwata hii modèle hii?
L: oui oui/ ...?... minaona mara moya: minakamata ule: ah minaenda kufanya/
F: sawa ya ile: ulifasha: uliisha kufan: kufanya mingi?
L: aah naisha kufanya mara mingi/
F: mara mingi/
L: sawa mu Li: mu Kipushi minafanya: quatre/
F: sasa kama bantu banaomba: Lumumba: juu bana: banaombaka juu ya nini?
L: ah: puisque...
F: mara ingine: mara ingine: banapend: bengine banapenda tu paysages: bengine...
F: kama ni mamba muntu:
L: kuko bengine hawapende hii: minapenda paysage: minapenda mamba muntu:
F: ao ...?...
L: mwengine anakatala byote hii anasema: unifanye mi mwenyewe/
L: [chuckles] anapenda nsula yake: iko mu nyumba sawa/
F: kumbe bamingi beko naye? na Lumumba?
L: na Lumbumba?
F: eh/ mi sikuona mara mingi/
L: sawa mu Likasi iko mingi/
F: na mu Likasi ni: beko mingi?
L: iko mingi/
|12. This one you did [picking up a painting], the one of
Lumumba, did you do it some time ago?
L: I did it some time ago, yes.
F: What was your model? Did you do it after a photograph, or?
L: The one of Lumumba?
L: No. I made a sketch of the head...?... [claps] and the thing was finished.
F: About this globe, I have seen this [in a painting] by – who was it again? – [answers himself] Tshibumba.
L: Tshibumba, yes.
F: Was he not depicted in this kind of pose, Lumumba with a globe of the world?
L: (With a) a globe.
F: Perhaps you saw this on a photograph, I don’t know.
L: Well, the thing is that only one documentary picture of his was preserved after he died. Everywhere it is the only document.
F: Everywhere. That photograph of his?
L: Yes, yes.
F: It’s this one?
L: That’s him, Lumumba.
F: In that pose?
L: Exactly in that pose only.
F: Is it the one they sell even in shops?
L: Even in bookshops, I...?...
F: In bookshops?
L: Yes. But, well, finding it is a matter of chance.
F: Mm. So you followed that model?
L: Yes, yes. I saw it once, picked it up, and went on doing (pictures of Lumumba).
F: Have you done many of them?
L: Of him?
L: Aah, many times.
F: Many times.
L: In Kipushi, for instance, I did four of them.
F: Now, when they ask for (a painting of) Lumumba –why do they keep asking for it?
L: Well, because...
F: It may be that some only like landscapes, others...
F: ...perhaps a Mamba Muntu.
L: There are some who don’t like this one. I like a landscape (they say), I like a Mamba Muntu.
F: Or a ...?...
L: Another one rejects all of them and says, I want you to do (a picture of) myself.
F: I see.
L: [chuckles] He likes his own face in his home.
F: So many people have a picture of Lumumba?
L: Of Lumumba?
F: Yes. Because I have not seen it all that often?
L: Like in Likasi, there are many.
F: In Likasi, there are many of them?
L: There are many.
|13. F: mamba muntu: c’est vrai: niliona...
L: ... ah: nyumba yote/
F: mingi: mu nyumba yote/
L: [chuckles] ile ni mu nyumba yote/
L: banamupenda shiyue kama ni juu ya ile nyoka: ile mi shiyue/
F: oui oui/ tusumbulie juu ya mamba muntu/ [picks up painting] ile minaona: inaachana kiloko/ acha [handles paintings] président ulikamata tu photo?
L: oui/ photo yake ile ya: ku calendrier:
F: wa calendrier/ oui oui/ minaona: hata: nani: Tshibumba: iko na: ah na photo moya vile/
F: na bene: banapendake?
L: yee banatafuta sana:
L: maneno iko muzuri:
L: weka mu...
L: ...boutiques yabo: juu ya kuprésenter tu/
F: tena unauzishaka ngapi? kwa bantu/
L: ku bantu?
F: ku bantu oui/
L: portraits tu yote minauzisha minajaa deux na cinquante/
F: deux Zaire cinquante/ kama ni portrait: deux Zaire cinquante/
F: [puts down painting] sasa mamba muntu minaona: bado: bado kumaliza?
L: oui/ mais hakuishe tu: puisque ni tu ...?...saa ya bushiku/
F: [overlapping] bado kuisha eh?
F: aah: si kintu uta: uteanda naye: tu ka: mara ingine utaisha tu muzuri:
F: na: utaacha kwa: kwa Tshibumba/
|13. F: Now about Mamba Muntu. It’s true, I have seen (her
L:... ah, in every house.
F: Lots, in every house.
L: [chuckles] That one is in every house.
L: They love it, I don’t know, perhaps because of that snake. I don’t know...
F: Yes, yes. So lets talk about Mamba Muntu. [picks up painting] The one I am looking at is a little different. Wait a moment [handles paintings], (this painting of) the president you did after a photograph, right?
L: Yes, a photo of his in a calendar.
F: From a calendar, yes, yes. I saw that Tshibumba also had a photo like this.
F: People like it?
L: This one is much in demand.
L: Because it is beautiful.
F: I see.
L: To put it up...
F: [overlapping] ...?...
L: ... in their little shops, to show something presentable.
F: I see.
F: For how much do you usually sell them, to the people?
L: Among the people.
F: Among the people, yes.
L: All portraits I sell for no more than two fifty.
F: Two Zaire fifty. If it is a portrait – two Zaire fifty.
F: [puts down painting] Now, this Mamba Muntu I am looking at – it is not finished yet?
L: No. It was not quite finished because ...?... it got to be late at night.
F: [overlapping] So it isn’t finished, right? I see.
L: I am...
F: It doesn’t matter, just take it along and finish it nicely...
F: ... and leave it at Tshibumba’s.
|14. F: mais: [pauses] ts: minaona ni: ni sawa muntu:
[pauses, looking around in the room] ile mamba muntu: sijue: hatuna naye
tena/ tulikuwa naye...
F: ...ku bibambashi/ ah/ si njo madame:
L: shsh [an embarrassed chuckle]
F: madame muzungu?
F: sasa yako: ts: kwa rangi: eko muzungu ao nini?
L: yee iko na hii roho kabisa/
L: eh: ah/ [chuckles]
F: ku rangi?
L: iko mamba muntu: iko mwengine anaenda sawa muzungu mais: forme anaenda sawa Zairois ingine/
F: paka nsula sawa muzungu?
F: ye: yake hapa?
F: Za: Zairoise?
L: iko sawa Zairoise/
F: alafu na nywele yake:
L: manywele yake inakuwa sawa muzungu sasa/
F: ahah/ [pauses] juu ya nini?
L: ah puisque ni: ni muntu moya ku: d’après façon wanaexpliquer puisque mi shinamuonaka/
F: hata uni: unielezea arisi/
L: aha/ njo kusema façon bana: expliquer ule na miye: iko na bintu mingi: iko sawa: ni [hesistates] yee iko na bintu yote sawa ya bazungu: manywele paka ya bazungu: na tout ça ma: ni iko analanda kama mu masikio yabo ile: hii ya mu masikio: maboucles/
F: na: ma?
L: boucles dorées/
F: [overlapping] boucles: boucles dorées/
L: aseme bitu ile iko nayo na mi shiyue/
F: tena na:
F: anapashwa kuwa na saa/
L: masaa mais mi shiyue hii: kama ni mi ya kuona/
|14. F: But [pauses], well, what I see, it is like a person
[pauses, looking around in the room]. This Mamba Muntu, I don’t know – we
don’t have it anymore. We used to have it...
F: ... on one of the walls. Ah (now I see it). Is it not (a portrait of) a Madame?
L: [an embarrassed chuckle.
F: A European lady?
F: Now the one you painted, as far as the color goes, is she European or what?
L: She really has that spirit.
L: Yes, well. [chuckles]
F: As far as color goes?
L: It’s a Mamba Muntu. There are some that come off like a European but the shape is that of a Zairean.
F: So only the face resembles that of a European?
F: What about the face of this one?
L: This one?
F: (Is she) Zairean?
L: She resembles a Zairean woman.
F: But her hair...
L: ... her hair makes her a European, in this case.
F: I see. [pauses] Why is that so?
L: Well, because she is a person who -- the way people explain it, I have not seen her...
F: ...just tell me the story.
L: Right. The way it was explained to me, she has a lot of things. She has [pauses] all those European things, the hair of Europeans, all that. She is showing off those earrings they wear.
F: Those what?
L: Golden earrings.
F: Earrings. Golden earrings.
L: About the things she wears -- I don’t really know
F: And then also...
L: ... things like...
F: ...she has to have a wristwatch.
L: Wristwatches. But I don’t know about these things from observation.
|15. F: sasa: anaikala mu mayi/
L: anaikala mu mayi/
F: njo yote/
L: ...?... anachunga: shiyue kama njo: [claps] ana: fanyaka nini mu zizi ...?.../
F: maana yake ya nyoka: wa: ...?...
L: nyoka? mais: mishi: puisque mi shiyamuonaka:
L: sijue kuleta hii idée muzuri/
F: uliona tu kwa: tableaux ingine?
L: bananiexpliquer paka fanya mamba muntu anaikalaka hivi: minafanya/ [claps]
F: wee unafanya/
L: oui oui/ [chuckles]
F: sasa bantu banawaza nini: kama: kama banauza?
L: ah: shiyue: peut-être bo banaisha kuona: na mi hakuona maidées mingi asema c’est vrais: njo vile tulionaka siku fulani: kumbe ni iko hivi/ [claps]
F: [pauses] banauza juu ya nini? paka ku: ku: kuangaria: kubafurahisha: ao: juu ya nini?
L: eh: bana: bamingi wanauza maneno ya: kuona tu ile forme ya mamba muntu: puisque: ni: chimwilimwili yake:
L: ...?... mu le torse/
F: oui oui/
L: kumbe iressembler sawa muntu mais: kule ku mukila sawa samaki/
F: samaki/ sasa minashangaa: banasema mamba muntu/ alafu a: si mamba/ si: ni samaki?
L: [chuckles] puisque/ mais banaita mamba muntu puisque: au lieu ya kuita mamba samaki: bana: iko mot moya iko mulefu...
L: [overlapping] paka mamba muntu...
F: sawa: muntu samaki?
L: [chuckles] hapana/
F: muntu samaki ...
L: she uzoezo ya vile mamba muntu/
F: mamba muntu/
|15. F: Now, (Mamba Muntu) lives in the water.
L: She lives in the water.
F: And that’s all.
L: She guards the ...?... I don’t know what it is [claps] she does in her abode.
F: What about the significance of the snake?
L: The snake? I have never seen (Mamba Muntu).
L: I cannot give a good explanation of the idea behind it.
F: You just saw it in other paintings?
L: When people explain it to me, do a Mamba Muntu like this, I do it. [claps]
F: You do it.
L: Well yes. [chuckles]
F: Now what do people have in mind when they buy (a Mamba Muntu)?
L: Ah, I don’t know. Maybe they have seen one. I haven’t come across many who thought that she really existed (saying), this is what we saw on a certain day, therefore (we know) she looks like this. [claps]
F: [pauses] (Still,) why do they buy (the painting)? Just to look at it because they get pleasure from it, or why?
L: Well, many buy it just to look at the shape of Mamba Muntu. Because of her body is something to behold.
L: (Especially her) chest.
F: Yes indeed.
L: So, it looks like a human being except for the tail of a fish.
F: A fish. Now, there is something that intrigues me. They call her Mamba Muntu but it isn’t a mamba, it’s a fish, no?
L: [chuckles] Still, they call it Mamba Muntu instead of calling it Mamba (Muntu) Fish, that would be a long word.
L: [overlapping] Just Mamba Muntu...
F: ... (why not) Muntu Samaki, fish person?
L: [chuckles] No.
F: Muntu Samaki ....
L: We are used to saying Mamba Muntu.
F: Mamba Muntu.
|16. F: [chuckles, pauses] banasema kama ni ngambo: ngambo
L: kule anaonekana?
L: mais: sawa ngambo ya Kalemie:
L: ngambo Kalemie inaanza kuonekana mara moya moya...?... sasa hapana/
F: [aside to I. Szombati who went through the room] Ilona, I think we’re done/ kale: ngambo ya Kalemie?
F: [pauses] bengine banasema baliisha kuona/
F: bengine banasema: kama: baliisha kuona/
F: ça [pauses]: si njo sawa lawa? bantu banaona sawa lawa/
L: puisque: shiwazie.
F: [overlapping] ... analeta butajiri:
L: banasema unamuona: utapata franga mingi: una: unamuona saa ingine anakupa montre: kama ni montre pendant: ni ma: mamiloires yake ile:
F: mais: inafaa kumu: kumuona na mecho?
L: mais: shee hatuyue kama utamuona comme ça ou bien: utamulota: et puis unaenda kumuona yee/
F: sasa hii: ni ma: ni mambo ya kushangaa/ bantu bote beko naye/
F: bantu bote beko naye/ hii mi sisikie/ sawa mara ingine bana: banapenda: kama balipenda: banauza: mais bote bote bote beko naye/
L: puisque histoire yake iko nguvu/ iko s: par example sawa histoire ya bwana Yesu: mutaniuza mingi/ sitapata possibilité ya kuiexpliquer/
F: ya bwana Yesu?
L: oui/ puisque: utasikia mu bitabu mais: sikusikia justement fasi ile alikuya: ou bien niliona: non/
F: tena minaona zamani/
F: ha? mbele ya: balianza na mamba muntu s: sawa mu mwaka gani? wee unaona: ilionekana:
L: parce que makati ile ...?... banaanza ma...
F: wakati ulikuwa mutoto: uliisha kuona?
L: nilikuwa mutoto: mais wakati banaanza peinture: ku bantu mweushi: mais shienee kupréciser totalement/
F: mais mbele ya: kuweka ku: peinture ku: ku nani: manguo:
F: baliweka wapi? wa: walipenta/
L: bale bantu wa ku: bakudessiner?
F: aah/ [corrects himself] non: hata mamba muntu/
L: oui/ mbele ya kuanza ku: kumudessiner?
L: utatumika sawa nani: tableaux yote/
F: si baliweka mu: kibambasi?
L: ts/ hapana/
F: wee bado kuona? hata mu mabars?
L: ku mabars wataweza kupenta tableaux ya bambashi/
L: puisque: kama unafanya ku nguo: si batapasula: uliisha: muntu kama anaisha kamata: ah oui/
F: ah oui kama anaisha kamata kaver:
L: [chuckles] he/
|16. F: [chuckles, pauses] What do they say about the place
(where she appears)?
L: Where she appears?
F: (Where) she appears.
L: Well, around Kalemie, for instance.
L: In the region of Kalemie she began to appear now and then ...?... not now anymore.
F: [aside to I. Szombati who went through the room] Ilona, I think we’re done.
There, in the region of Kalemie?
F: [pauses] Some say they have seen her.
F: Some say that they have seen her.
L: I see.
F: This [pauses] – isn’t it something like a magic charm. People regard it as a charm.
L: Well, I don’t think about it (that way).
F: [overlapping] ...something that brings wealth.
L: They say, if you see her you’ll get a lot of money, some other time she will give you a wristwatch, a watch as a pendant, or those mirrors she has.
F: But you must see her with your eyes?
L: Well, we don’t know if you see her like that or if you see her in a dream.
F: Now this is fascinating. Everyone owns (a Mamba Muntu).
F: Everyone has one. I don’t understand this. (I can imagine) that some people like it and buy one – but everybody has one.
L: Because the story that goes with (Mamba Muntu) is powerful. It’s like the story of Lord Jesus, for instance. People will buy from me many (paintings) of that story. I (still) won’t be able to explain (the story).
F: Like (the story of) Lord Jesus?
L: Yes. Because you hear about it in the books but that does not mean that you know exactly the place where he lived. It is not as if I had seen (that place), no.
F: Another thing – according to my observations in earlier years...
F: ...right? Before (people began to buy Mamba Muntu (paintings) – in fact, what was the year, when did you notice that (these paintings) appeared?
L: Because in those times...?... when they started with...
F: Was this when you were a child, did you see them then?
L: I was a child. But it started when painting became popular among black people. But I just cannot be precise about it.
F: Still, before they did paintings on canvasses...
F: Where did they put them? Those who painted.
L: Those people who drew pictures?
F: Yes. [corrects himself] No, specifically Mamba Muntu.
L: Yes. (You mean) before drawing a picture of her?
L: You would work as you do with every painting.
F: Didn’t they put (her) on walls?
L: No, not really.
F: You never saw this, even in bars?
L: It is possible that, in bars, they painted pictures on walls.
L: Because when you paint them on canvasses they could get damaged if a person had one (too many), ah yes.
F: Ah yes, if a person had had a little glass.
L: [chuckles] Yes.
|17. F: sawa: ulio: uli: ulisema: hapa sasa ni: kintu moya
ya nguvu ya kusikia: sawa vile: arisi ya bwana Yesu/
F: na minaona: zamani: bantu bote: si balikuwa na hata ka: ka: nani: kafeuille ya calandrier:
F: na bwana Yesu ao bikira Maria/
F: si vile?
L: ile: hata hapa sasa/
F: hapa sasa: haiokon: hai: haionekane zaidi hapana/
L: ndiyo/ sikia:
F: paka yee [knocking on painting of Mamba Muntu]
L: sawa na Kipushi:
L: kuko bantu wana: penda mambo ya religion/ atakuya na photo kiloko ya Bwana Yesu/
L: anakupa: fanya aggrandissement: minafanya aggrandissement/ iko mingi nawafanyisha/
F: na wee unafanyaka?
L: minafanya tu/
F: bantu banani ba...
L: nafanya muzuri sana/ bantu ya ile banapenda mareligions: puisque: ngambo mwetu magroupes iko mingi sana ya mareligions [claps]:
L: kuko Témoins de Jehova: mais: bamagroupes ingine...
L: ba baTshibangu: ya nani: [claps] ah tout ça/
L: ahah/ bote wanalomba/
L: aah/ [chuckles]
F: baJamaa vile: vile vile?
L: mais oui oui/ bote wanafanyishe paka photo ya Bwana Yesu/
F: kumbe unafanya/
L: minafanya muzuri sana/
F: mm/ [pauses] maneno ni mawazo nilikuwa naye: ni kusema: ni sawa mamba muntu anaanza kukombola/
F: anaanza kukombola: eeh:
L: hapana/ puisque...
F: bwana Yesu na bikira Maria/
L: hapana/ puisque hii dessin: ushikumbuke asema ni: presque mu manyumba ya bantu bote hapana/ minawaza: na plus part beko na hii photo: ni bale ba: habaku: funda zaidi hapana/
F: ba kufunda zaidi hapana?
L: mm/ puisque bale balifunda zaidi bo hapana kuomba hii kitu ya hivi/ banapenda au moins paysages ingine ingine tu ya bule: comme ça eko ...?...
F: bale mwenye kufunda?
F: paka: paka paysages?
L: paysages oui/ alafu waniquêter wengine: puisque wanapenda ya ile mahistoires ya zamani/
L: ...?...nkambo yake asema: angaria mu: muntu moya: eko na mukila sawa samaki: anabambaka bantu: comme ça analomba yee/
|17. F: You just said something I find difficult to
understand – about the story of Lord Jesus.
F: Long ago I noticed that everybody had at least a little cut-out from a calendar.
F: (With a picture of) Lord Jesus or the Virgin Mary.
L: Even nowadays.
F: Today this does not appear all that often.
L: Yes. Listen.
F: Just her [knocking on painting of Mamba Muntu].
L: In Kipushi, for example.
L: There are people who like religious things. A person will have (at least) a small portrait of Lord Jesus.
L: He’ll give it to you, asking, do an enlargement, so I do an enlargement. There are many for whom I did this.
F: And you do it?
L: I just do it.
F: Who are the people who...
L: I do it very well. People who (ask for this) like religions. Because here in our country there are lots of religious groups. [claps]
L: There are Jehovah’s Witnesses but also other groups...
F: ...the Bapostolo...
L: ...the followers of Kimbangu and who else [claps], all those groups.
F: The followers of Kimbangu.
L: Yes, they all pray.
F: The members of the Jamaa.
L: Aah [chuckles].
F: The Jamaa, too?
L: Yes, of course. They all want me to do portraits of Lord Jesus.
F: So you do them.
L: I do them very well.
F: Mm. [pauses] Because I had this idea that (paintings of ) Mamba Muntu are about to take the place...
F: ... that they begin to take the place...
L: No, because...
F: ... of Lord Jesus and the Virgin Mary.
L: No. Because you should not think that this (kind of) picture is in the houses of almost everybody. Most of those who have this picture are people who did not have much education.
F: People without much education?
L: Mm. Because people who are well educated don’t ask for things like that. They like landscapes and those other meaningless (pictures). That is how...?...
F: (And) people with an education?
F: Just landscapes?
L: Landscapes, yes. But others ask me for those stories of the past they like.
L: ...?... his grandparent told him, look there is this person who has a tail like a fish and catches people – so he orders a painting (of Mamba Muntu).
|18. F: sawa: bon: njo mamba muntu: anakala tu ku mutoni:
mais [picks up painting] inafaa kumaliza/ sasa tuko na: na mbili/ [noises,
handling paintings] mbili: hapa:
F: minaona: lakini inafanana/
F: ni bantu: bantu beusi banarudia/ balikuwa kulumbata/
F: mm/ tena: kule bantu beusi bana: banabeba tu: nyama: ule muzungu haiyue/
L: ndiyo/ [chuckles]
L: ndiyo: makati ya colonisation ile/
F: kumbe hii: ni wakati ya colonisation?
L: ndiyo/ [claps]
F: ahah/ bon: mais unielezee/ njo yote?
L: ahah/ njo paka vile/ puisque: hapa tu sawa ni mu retour ya mu chasse/
L: hata wa mu chasse/ haba wanduku tena walumbaji/
F: muzungu na: bunduki yake:
L: na bunduki yake anashimama/
F: na anavwala nani? anavwala costume yake:
F: ya buzungu/
F: na nani: kofi/ hapana: ts: kofia/
L: kofia oui/
F: kofia/ [pauses] hapa: kule banarudia ku: ngambo ya bazungu?
L: ndiyo/ hapa: njo kusema ni wa: wawindaji: wanatoka...
L: wanatoka ku windo: walibamba chui: et wanaenda kupeleka ku nyumba/ juu ya kutosha ngozi muzuri muzuri/
F: banaweza kukamata chui tu: tu bule bule hivi?
L: hapana/ minawaza wanapashwa kubamba: hii banaita bupinde/ arc/
L: njo ...?... ile voilà/
F: na bupinde/
L: iko ingine: ?bwana ...?... pamoja: mais imbwa yangu:
F: imbwa anamufwata/ bale benye ya ba: bazungu habana na imbwa?
L: hapana/ ah puisque: batabeba imbwa namna? pale banakuwa: banakuwa [chuckles] dominés?/
L: si bale banakuwa dominés ile wakati?
F: balikuwa dominés?
L: oui oui/
F: kumbe haba: hawezi: habakuwa na namna ya ku: ku: tembea na imbwa?
L: hapana/ [chuckles] hatatembea naye mule/
F: comment? hii mi sisikie/
L: mais si iko dirigé pale?
F: oui/ kama uko dirigé:
L: hakuna moyen wee: puisque: kama ukingali: par exemple kama unaoa bibi/
L: bibi: est-ce bibi que lui atakuonyesha asema: wvala hii koti chacha hii? ao kama ni manguo ya mu nyumba: ou bien byakula na ku ...?... bukulyayo uiache? iko impossible/ mwee utakulya ile kintu unapenda/ njo sawa na bo beko sawa: hii makati: tulikuwa sawa tungaliki bamuti/
F: wee mulikal: muli: angaliki: aah/
L: ile makati nilingali mutoto: ni histoire bule: wanakuwa kuniraconter ku wagrandsfrères: comme ça...
F: kumbe: hamukuwe hata na imbwa ya kucommander?
L: imbwa sawa ku: bantu banaikala sawa mabrousses: balikuwa naye/
L: mais sawa muntu sawa kwenda kubeba bintu ya: vile: ali...
F: alikuwa sawa imbwa wa:
L: anakwenda nayee bule tu: pashipo muti: pashipo nini/ ka: banaua: yee anafungwa pa kulewa bule/
F: mm/ [pauses] paka muzungu: anape: anatembea na bunduki yake/
|18. F: Alright, so much about Mamba Muntu, the one who
lives in a river. But [picks up painting] we must get through (with the paintings).
Now we have those two here [noises, handling paintings]
F: But I see that they are alike.
F: There are people, black people, coming back from hunting.
F: Mm. And then, the black people there are carrying game without this European being aware of it.
L: Yes. [chuckles]
L: Yes. This was during the times of colonization.
F: So this (painting is about) the time of colonization?
L: Yes. [claps]
F: I see. Alright, but explain this to me. Is that all?
L: Yes. That’s what it is. (What we see) here is the return from a hunt.
L: From a hunt, they are our brothers who were still hunters.
F: The European has his gun.
L: He is standing there with his gun.
F: And what is this he wears? He is wearing this outfit of his...
F: ...(that marks him) as a European.
F: With a kofi (slap in the face), no, what do you call it, a kofia (hat).
L: A hat, yes.
F: A hat. [pauses] So the place where they return, is this in the European part (of town)?
L: Yes. So (what we see here) are hunters coming back...
L: They return from the hunt. They caught a leopard and carry it home so they can skin him carefully.
F: Can they take a leopard just like that?
L: No. I think the must get it with what is called a bupinde, a bow.
F: A bupinde?
L: There you see one.
F: With a bupinde.
L: There is another one. And there is one (hunter) together with his dog.
F: The dog follows him. The others, the ones that belong to the Europeans don’t have dogs?
L: No. Because how could they take dogs with them when they (themselves) were dominated?
L: Weren’t they dominated at that time?
F: They were dominated?
L: Yes, yes.
F: So (this means) they could not walk around with a dog?
L: No. [chuckles] He is not going to walk with a dog in that scene.
F: Was it prohibited?
F: How so, I don’t understand this.
L: But, is he not taking orders in that scene?
F: Yes. When you are taking orders...
L: It’s impossible for you to – for example, take the situation where you are married.
L: The wife, is she going to tell you, put on this coat and hurry up? Or clothes one wears in the house? Or food she brings (telling you), eat this or leave it? That’s impossible. You are going to eat what you like. That was like the situation people were in. At that time we were like a trees.
F: You were like – aah, now I understand.
L: In those days hen I was still a child it was just a story my older brothers would tell me. That way...
F: In other words, you did not even have a dog to order around?
L: Well, people who lived in remote areas had their dogs.
L: But someone who carried burdens like this, he...
F: ... he was like the dog of a...
L: He walked around without anything, without a stick or anything. They would kill (him), lock him up just for being drunk.
F: Mm. [pauses] Only the European walked around with his gun.
|19. F: [taking up another painting] tandis que: hapa: ni
wakati: ni wakati ya sasa ao ya wankambo?
L: ni paka wakati ya zamani/
F: ya zamani/ na bo banatembea na: na nani? arc:
F: na imbwa yabo/
F: kule banamu: banamuongojea? muzungu/
L: njo kusema ni: mimi sasa niko naprésente: ile banakuya na nyama/
F: madame yake?
F: eeh/ hapa ni ku mugini?
L: ni ku mugini ndiyo
F: [pauses] ts: hii: ni idée tu ya sasa? ao uliisha kufanya mara ingine?
L: niliisha kufanya mara ingine tu/ minafanya ...?... forme kiloko ya yee tu/
F: sasa: bantu banaomba: bana: sawa hii/ baliisha kuomba? hapa banaisha: banaisha ku: ku:
L: ah: hii tulirudisha paka mara tatu mu Likasi/
L: ndiyo/ puisque ni histoire na ya zamani/ anauza juu ya: inbabakia souvenir paka vile/
F: banasema ni arisi ya:
L: ya wakati ya colonisation/
F: eeh?[pauses] maneno bengine banafanyaka tu juu: juu ya kukumbusha: colonisation: banafanyaka tu: fimbo:
L: fimbo: tout ça: eh: manani: maimpôts ile makati ya ma impôts: maprisons/ façon ba: baprisonniers banatumika: yote tu ile tunafanyaka tu ...?... territoire/
F: na wee uliwaza hii wa mamazo?
L: yaa [chuckles] minafanyaka tena na territoire ingine/
F: ni wapi? paka ku: mu kizungu?
L: ni mu kizungu c’est que veut dire fashi bule/ déterminé hapana/
F: déterminé hapana: paka vile moya sawa Likasi ao?
L: oui/ mais: jina ni paka mu Zaire/ [chuckles]
|19. F: [taking up another painting] Whereas this painting
here – (does it depict) the present or the time of the ancestors?
L: (It depicts) the past.
F: The past. And the people walk around with a bow?
F: And their dog(s).
F: Over there, are they waiting for him, for the European?
L: What I am showing now is how they arrive with the game.
F: I see.
F: His wife?
F: Yes. The scene is in a village?
L: (The scene) is in a village, yes.
F: [pauses] Is this an idea you had just now or did you do (paintings like this) before?
L: I have done them before, in a smaller version.
F: Now, are people asking for (paintings) like this? Did you have orders for it?
L: This one I did on order just three times in Likasi.
F: People bought it?
L: Yes. Because it is a story of the past. A person buys it because then he has a souvenir.
F: It is said to be a story of...
L: ...the time of colonization.
F: Is that so? [pauses] Because when others paint reminders of colonization they do (the scene with) the whip...
L: ... the whip, that sort of thing, the time when taxes were collected, prisons, prisoners at work, all that we do ...?... and also the territory.
F: And you thought this up?
L: Well [chuckles] I have been doing other (paintings of ) the territory.
F: Where is this set? In the world of the Europeans?
L: It’s in the world of the Europeans in general, not in any particular place.
F: No particular place, (unless you name one), like Likasi, right?
L: Yes. But what it says is simply “in Zaire.” [chuckles]
|20. F: bon/ [pauses] tulisumbulia kiloko juu
ya: bale bengine sawa Kapenda/ pa kujua kama fulani ni artiste/ ya kweli/
mbele: muko na: neno: mu Swahili? ya kusema artiste?
L: neno ya mu Swahili artiste: artiste njo kusema ni mufundi/
F: fundi/ kwenu? a:
F: mfundi ataweza kuwa: tena ataweza ku: mwenye kuchonga:
L: mwenye kuchonga: mwenye: ku: [hesitates]
F: mwenye kush: ku: kusuka/
L: mwenye kushuka: mwenye ku: ku: jenga udongo:
F: kujenga udongo:
L: oui/ ule ya mafanya monument/
F: bote beko: mfundi?
L: eheh/ mfundi/
F: mm/ hapa...
L: hata mwenye kushona nguo:
F: ...pa kushona nguo/ mm/ menusier? sawa...
L: ... ni mfundi/
F: njo mfundi?
L: yote/ en général/
F: mais: hapa: [knocks on painting] banasemaka tu:
L: huku banaita paka artiste yee/ bo hapana yua kiSwahili/
F: peintre artiste/
F: peintre artiste/
|20. F: Alright. [pauses] We already talked a little about
the likes of Kapenda. In order to know that someone is a true artist – but
first something else, do you have a word (for artist) in Swahili? To say
L: A word for artist in Swahili – an artist is called mufundi.
F: Mfundi. (Is that what you say) back home?
L: In Swahili.
F: Back home?
L: In Kalemie.
F: Mfundi could also mean someone who can carve.
L: Someone who can carve, someone who knows how to... [hesitates]
F: ...who knows how to weave.
L: Who knows how to weave, someone who can build with clay.
F: Build with clay.
L: Yes, what they do when they make a monument.
F: They all are called mfundi?
L: Yes, mfundi.
F: Mm. Here?
L: Even someone who knows how to sew clothes.
F: ...sewing clothes. Mm. What about a carpenter? Like...
L: ... he is a mfundi.
F: Sermali (in Swahili), a carpenter.
L: A mfundi.
F: That is the meaning of mfundi?
L: All of that, in general.
F: (Or is it) sermala?
F: But here [knocks on painting] for this they say....
L: Here they call him an artiste, they don’t know Swahili.
F: (Or) peintre artiste.
F: Peintre artiste.
|21. sasa: [pauses] juu ya: juu ya
F: baartistes ya kuachana kuachana/ mm? sawa unona moya asema aah eeh: si artiste/ comme ça Kapenda anfanya tu/ bintu ya ovyo ovyo/ ungine: sijue kama Tshibumba: uaona: eko artiste?
L: Tshibumba: d’accord/ ni puisque: yake...
F: ao: ulete mufano ingine mais: tuseme Tshibumba tu: maneno tunamufahamu/
L: hapana/ Tshibumbu: anaen: anayua: anayua dessin mais: anafondre: mu portraits/
F: mu portraits?
L: oui/ puisque anayua kufanya portrait: mais haitakuwa textuellement/
F: ah/ textuellement?
L: oui/ itakuwa un peu différent: kiloko/
L: mais: tandisque haba bengine bote: ataenea kufanya kintu moya sawa paysages mais: haiprésenter kintu/ unaweka mbali pamoya/ unaweka karibu iko hapa mule/
F: minaona hii: nani: [picks up painting, shows] wee unfanana: una: una: una: hafamiana na: Tshibumba? si vile?
F: si njo: siku moya aliomba: alikuomba wee: kufanya maphotos yetu?
L: ya: ya kuleta huku?
F: hapana/ yee alileta/ si njo alikuomba ku: ku: kumusaidia?
F: maneno tulikuwa na photo yetu: nayee madame: paka ile namna/
F: ile namna tu/
L: mais: alifanya muzuri/
F: yee: alifanya? yangu alifanya très bien/ ya madame: ça va/
L: ah oui/
F: eko nguvu/
L: c’est comme ça puisque: portrait: haina asema utaenea kuréussir: nsula yote hapana/ kuko ingine nsula ya muntu ingine unashindwa ingine alafu/
L: peut-être aliréussir: tout justement ni vile/
|21. Now [pauses] for the sake of comparing....
F: ... different artists, right? You may see one and tell yourself, ah, he is not an artist. Like Kapenda who only does worthless stuff. Another one – I don’t know, take Tshibumba. Do you consider him an artist?
L: Tshibumba, yes. That is because his...
F: ... or you may give another example, but let’s just say Tshibumba because we know him.
L: No. Tshibumbu (sic) knows how to draw but falls short when it comes to portraits.
F: With portraits?
L: Yes. Because although he can do a portrait but it will not be an exact likeness.
F: I see. An exact likeness?
L: Yes. It will be somewhat different, a little.
F: I see.
L: Whereas all those others – such a person will be able to do one thing (only), like landscapes, but he doesn’t represent a thing. (Painting like that) you do (something that is) far the same (size) as things that are far away.
F: What I notice is [picks up painting, shows] You and Tshibumba know each other, right?
F: Didn’t he ask you once to do our portraits?
L: (You mean) that I should bring them to this place?
F: No, he brought them but didn’t he ask you to help him (with the painting)?
F: (I thought so) because we had our portraits, also one of Madame, they were much like (the portraits you paint).
F: Exactly the same.
L: But he did them nicely.
F: Did he do them? Mine he did very well, the one of Madame was just so.
L: Ah, yes.
F: She was difficult (to do).
L: That’s how it is because when it comes to portraits you can’t succeed with every face. There are some faces of a person you cannot do well.
L: Maybe he managed to get it just so, that’s how it is.
|22. F: bon turudie ku: ku ile maulizo/ ah: pa kujua kama fulani ni: ni artiste ya kweli: fulani ni: pa: pa: nani: kutumika humu/ utajua namna
L: njo kusema kwa kutafuta kujua: hii inaonyesha paka: ufundi wake/ wa kutumika:
L: na façon: kintu yake inaonekana ku macho/
F: [pauses] njo yote? hauwezi ku: kama unaangaria na we: sawa uko na: na tableau yake...
L: ...d’accord/ puisque...
F: si: si utaweza kuangaria hapa: alafu: nani: miti: alifanya namna gani/ nyasi na: na nani: nyumba: alifanya namna gani/ bantu: sawa pose ya bantu: sawa imbwa: alifanya namna gani/ hauna namna ya ku: sema?
L: ya: namna ya kuonyesha?
L: puisque iko: mapeintures ingine: kama ni dessinés pressé:
L: iko inaonekana macoups de pinceau yote inaonekana/
F: coups de pinceau?
L: oui/ mais: kuko ingine: kama anaitumika tu mais: na soin: hautaona macoups de pinceau: itakapotea na: na inaingiana najiri ya mu..?... comme ça:
F: kumbe: kwa: kuona coup de pinceau haina muzuri?
L: oui/ kama unaona coup de pinceau: ça veut dire ni...
F: ... surtout kama: portrait...
L: ... artiste: yee hapana kutumika muzuri/
F: c’est vrais?
|22. F: Fine, let’s get back to those questions. How do you
know that a certain painter among those who work here is really an artist?
L: If you want to know this – it simply shows up in his craftsmanship, in the way he works.
L: And the way his work appears to the eye.
F: [pauses] Is that all? When you look at someone’s painting can’t you...
L: ...that, yes. Because....
F: If you look at this one here could you not talk about how he did the trees, the grass, and the house? Or the people, their pose, and how did he do the dog? Can’t you tell?
L: The way (the painter) shows (all this)?
L: Well, there are some paintings, if they are done in a hurry...
L: ...where every brushstroke shows.
L: Yes. But there others where, if (the artist) worked with care, you won’t see brushstrokes. They will disappear, one will flow into the other..?...like that.
F: So, if the brushstrokes are visible this is not good?
L: Right. If you see brushstrokes that means...
F: ...especially if it is a portrait.
L: ...there is an artist who does not work well.
F: Is that true?
|23. F: angarie yee/ [points to a painting]
L: yee: puisque...
F: ...ule: ule mu: hii munene:
L: hii: puisque haina juste: haina pamoya ni hii/ hii banaita...
F: ...asema: donc: ile tableau ya: ya hapa: ku kibambashi ile munene: inaachana:
L: ...na hii/
F: kwa sawa kwa mufano kwa: ile nsula:
L: ya Mobutu/
F: ya Mobutu/
L: puisque/ ile: kama unafika karibu: unaona eko matâches/
L: ya bule/
L: alafu kama unaenda mbali: inaprésenter kintu moya/ njo ile/
F: njo ile?
F: sasa unaona namna gani?
L: ku ile?
L: iko mi kintu moya muzuri: anatumika vizuri sana/ puisque: ni muntu alifundia ile bintu...
L: ...?... surveillance moya ya kupita/
L: aah minamufahamu sana/
F: ulikutana nayo?
L: hapana/ puisque tunaonanaka tu: comme ça mais: hanifahamu na yee mi hapana/
F: [pauses] toka mu Luba/
F: si njo mu ngambo ye: karibu ...?...
F: non/ eko na: anatoka Malemba Nkulu/
L: ah oui/ mais pas: à Kalemie/
|23. F: Look at that one [points to a painting]
L: That one...
F: ...that one over there, the big one.
L: That one does not fit, it’s not of the same kind as this one. That one they call...
F: So, the painting we have here on the wall, the large one, is different...
L: ...than this one here.
F: Because, for instance, this (is a) portrait...
L: ...of Mobutu.
F: Of Mobutu.
L: Because, if you get close to that one (on the wall) you (just) see spots.
L: Nothing else.
L: But from a distance (lit. if you walk far), it does present something. That’s it.
F: That’s it?
F: Now, what is your view (of that painting)?
L: That one?
L: It is a beautiful piece, he works very well. Because he is someone who studied these things...
F: ... Do you know him?
L: ...?... (he is) completely in control.
F: Do you know (him)?
L: Ah, I know him very well.
F: Have you met, the two of you?
L: No, we just saw each other in passing but he does not know me.
F: [pauses] He is from Luba country.
L: I see.
F: Isn’t that the region close to...
F: No, he comes from Malemba Nkulu.
L: Ah, yes, but not from Kalemie.
|24. F: sawa ule ingine: ku kibambashi ingine
ule/ mandege na: na nani: na nyama/ una: unaona:
L: jina yake ni?
L: Kanyemba/ eh/ nani: ba sasa bale?
L: puisque bale: baartistes ya zamani humu: moya ku Likasi: humu iko Mwenze: mu Likasi Amisi Pascal/ Burozi:
F: sawa bulozi?
L: eh/ puisque ni muntu...
L: Amisi Pascal ah oui/
F: Amisi Pascal?
L: ekoako/ puisque yee hapana tumika tu comme ça wee: anafanya tu: paka commandes naye/ bintu sawa ...?... ndugu ya wazoea na naye/
F: sawa: sawa ile bale bazungu banataka...?...
L: eeh/ njo yake anapenda sana yee/ yee hapana penda...
F: njo Amisi?
F: na ile: eh: Bulozi?
L: Burozi: nayee paka anafanya paka mapaysages: na bintu ya sawa/
L: puisque nayee na branche yetu paka: kapeintures/
F: peintures/ tube?
L: unaona: paka peinture à l’huile
F: à l’huile?
F: na bo balifundaka?
L: oui/ Burozi alifanya ku Tanzanie/
F: ku Tanzanzie?
F: ekoako sasa?
L: ekoako hapa kisasa/
F: c’est vrai?
F: Burozi/ njo métier yake? njo ule tu anafanyaka?
L: yee hapana na kazi: kazi yake paka ile/
F: aah/ [pauses] alafu ile cha kule: wa kule ku Lubumbashi: ya Kanyemba: unaona namna gani?
L: mais: iko paka meilleur/
F: iko paka?
L: iko meilleur/
L: oui/ puisque hii tableau kama unasimama mbali: inaonyesha kintu/ iko tableau muzuri/ ni bien travaillé/
F: mais: unaona: macoups de pince/
F: sawa: sasa uliisha kusema: kama unaona: macoups de pinceau inaonekana: ni mubaya/
L: iko mubaya/ sawa ku peinture hii/ ile si banaita nani? ts/ [pauses] minasahabu jina yake ni gani/
F: ile namna ile?
L: oui/ ile façon banatumika naye/ ah: minamupotea:
F: njo ile/
L: eh/ inaachana pamoya na ile/
L: kazi ya ile haina ...?... puisque hii: hata eko karibu: mais iko inajiprésenter sawa papier/ hata iko mbali: iko sawa papier/
L: ni ile iko inaonekana: mpaka mbali mais kama unaikala karibu unaona matâches hii/
L: ni mbali inaprésenter kintu mwiko mayele kabisa/
F: bantu banapate: bana: banapendaka hii namna?
L: d’accord/ ni bantu banapenda mais: puisque: sawa muntu anafunda: mingi: anayua peinture:
L: qu’est que c’est/
L: anapenda bintu ya namna hii/
L: alafu na muntu ule yee hapana kufunda:
L: yee anauliza ni bitu gani unafanya?...?... sawa hivi: atakuuliza ni bintu gani unafanya hivi?
F: mm/ hivi ya:
F: ya Mwenze?
L: ndiyo/ alafu muntu wa kufunda: anayua asema ah: ...?... ni kweli: bintu yako répésentables...
F: sawa wee unaona nini? ni sujet gani?
L: njo kusema ni sujet ...?... ni nyama wanakimbia: kama kule ngambo nazani moto inawaka/
F: sawa wanasema: feux de brousse/
F: [pauses] mm/ na mingi banafanyaka feux de: feux de brousse kila mara: si vile?
|24. Take this other one there on the wall. Birds and what?
Wild animals, as you see.
L: What’s his name?
F: Kanyemba, I see. Who is he, one of those who came up recently?
F: You don’t know him?
L: (No) because those early artists here – there is one in Likasi, here (in Lubumbashi) there is Mwenze, in Likasi Amisi Pascal. (And) Burozi.
F: (Sounds) like bulozi (sorcery).
L: Yes, he is someone...
F: (What about) Amisi?
L: Amisi Pascal, ah yes.
F: Amisi Pascal?
F: Is he around?
L: He is around. But he doesn’t keep working just like that, he only paints on order, things ...?... his friends are used to.
F: Like (things) Europeans are after...?...
L: Yes, that’s what he likes most, he doesn’t like...
F: That’s Amisi?
F: And this Bulozi?
L: Burozi, He only does landscapes and things like that.
F: I see.
L: Because he is in our business (lit. branch), just minor paintings.
F: Paintings – using paint (that comes in) tubes.
L: You see only oil paint.
F: Oil (paint)?
F: And those (painters), did they study (art)?
L: Yes. Burozi did that in Tanzania.
F: In Tanzania?
F: Is he around nowadays?
L: He is around at the present time.
F: Burozi. Is (painting) his métier? Is this all he does?
L: He does not have a job. (Painting) is his work.
F: I see. [pauses] But this stuff by people who come from Lubumbashi, Kanyemba’s (for instance), what is you opinion of it?
L: Well, it’s just superior (lit. better).
F: It’s just?
L: It’s superior.
L: Yes. Because, (take) that painting. If you stop (to look at it) from a distance it shows something. It is a beautiful painting, well done.
F: But you see the brushstrokes.
F: But then, earlier you said, if you see brushstrokes this is bad.
L: It is bad. Take this painting. What do they call this, ts [pauses] I don’t know what the term is.
F: This way (to paint)?
L: Yes, this manner in which they work. Ah, I forgot.
F: (Is it) “decorative?”
F: That’s it (then).
L: Yes. It differs from that one.
L: The work in this one is not...?...Because, no matter whether it is close or far it presents itself like paper.
L: It’s that (other) one that becomes recognizable only from a distance but when you stand close (to it) you (only) see those spots.
F: Do people like this style?
L: Well, there are people who like it because a well-educated person knows ...
L: ... what it is.
L: He likes things in this style.
L: Whereas a person who has no education...
L: ... he will ask, what is this stuff you are painting? ...?... (seeing something) like this he is going to ask you, what is this stuff you paint like that?
F: Mm. Like that of...
F: ...like (the work) of Mwenze?
L: Yes. But an educated person, he knows (what it is about), your stuff, he’ll say really represents something.
F: What is it you see? What is the subject (of this painting)?
L: The subject is ...?...just animals fleeing and over there, I think, a fire is burning.
F: Like what they call a bushfire.
F: [pauses] Mm. And there are many who do (paintings) of brushfires again and again, right?
|25. [pauses] ts/ sasa: [pauses] unaona
baartistes ingine/ bale banatumikaka tu ka: namna yabo sawa: wee/ bana: banapenta/
kupenta njo nini mu Swahili?
L: ah: kupenta c’est ...?... kupeindre/
F: ao: kudessiner? muko na neno?
L: kudessiner: njo iko kudessiner/ sinon mu Swahili ni kupakala tu/
L: ndiyo/ hee [chuckles]
F: alafu kufwatula?
L: d’accord/ c’est la même chose/ fwatula puisque le mot kufwatula là: inatoka paka ku tradition ya huku/
L: ni Swahili yabo ya huku/
F: ya Lubumbashi?
F: mwenu/ mu Kalemie: utasema nini?
L: ah: ni tu sema ule muntu anapaka penti/
L: anapaka penti/ [chuckles]
F: anapaka penti?
|25. [pauses] Well, now [pauses] You see other artists,
those who work in a style like yours. They paint – (by the way) what is “to
paint” in Swahili?
L: Well, to paint, kupenta, is kupeindre.
F: Or to draw (kudessiner)? Do you have a word for it?
L: Kudessiner is kudessiner, in Swahili it is just kupakala.
L: Yes. [chuckles]
F: But what about kufwatula?
L: Alright, it’s the same thing. Fwatula, the word kufwatula – that comes from local usage.
L: It’s their Swahili, (the one they speak) here.
F: (The Swahili) of Lubumbashi?
F: At home, in Kalemie, what would you say?
L: Ah, one would just say, this person anapaka penti, puts on paint.
F: Put on?
L: He puts on paint. [chuckles]
F: He puts on paint?
|26. F: eh mm/ est-ce que ni kazi sawa kazi ingine?
L: ile lakini ni kweli/ ni kazi iko sawa kazi ingine/ tena kazi moya nguvu/ tena yalomba mayele ya mu kichwa yako/ kama maidées hapana: hata banakufundisha mais: peut-être: utakuwa paka na: unashinda tu/
F: mbele ya kuingia ku Gécamines:
F: ulikuwa tu: na ile kazi?
F: ali: ulipata engagement sa: paka sasa?
L: engagement minapata: mu décembre: soixante-onze/
F: soixante-onze/ na unfanya: miaka tatu/
F: mbele yake uliuzisha tu tableaux?
F: ni yote? sasa ulikuwa na ngapi kila mwezi?
L: mbele ya kuengager? eeh: donc:
L: après engager?
F: ile wakati ulifanya tu...
L: mu usine?
F: ... rien que: hii kazi/ ya: ya: ya:
L: ya tableaux?
F: ya tableaux/
L: ah oui/ ile: par accident: puisque ile makati ya ku mbele: sikuwa natumika na: courage asema nilifanya dix mais: parfois: sinon: par semaine nilifanya hata trois: quatre/
F: trois: quatre par semaine?
F: kuuzisha kwa:
L: minauzisha tu: hata bei kiloko kiloko tu ya kuenea/ un Zaire: deux Zaire: comme ça/ minapata franga kucheza nayo bule/ [chuckles]
F: franga ya kucheza naye?
F: mais: ulikulya: kwa banduku?
L: ndiyo/ [chuckles]
F: [laughs] sasa unaona: si kama uli: uli: kama ukifanya tu: [knocks on painting] ki ?kaandiko hii: kufanya tu kazi ya peinture/
L: njo kusema...
F: ... si mara ingine utapita: salaire yako kule ku Gécamines?
L: mais: d’accord/ unaenea kupata courage ya kusema: nitabakilia na kazi ya peinture: kama baclients bekoako/ mais: sawa mu Zaire: clients ya peinture iko kiloko/
F: [incredulous] ni kiloko?
L: oui kiloko/ puisque...
F: sawa minaona: minaanza kuona kama minatembea ku: acha [noise, something falling] ku manyumba ya bantu: presque: la moitié des maisons:
L: beko na:
F: beko na: tableaux/
L: [overlapping] tableaux/ mais d’accord/ kama: la moitié ya mamaisons iko na matableaux:
L: na baartistes beko mingi/ haitakuwa profit ya muntu moya/
|26. F: Mm. Is the work (you do) like other work?
L: What you say is true, it is work like other work. Moreover, it is a difficult sort of work and it asks for a clever head. If there are no ideas you may fail even though you had training.
F: Before you joined the Gécamines...
F:...you only had this work?
F: You were hired just recently?
L: I was hired in December, seventy-one.
F: In seventy-one, so you finished three years (by now).
F: Before that, all you did was selling paintings?
F: That was all. How many did you have (to sell) every month?
L: Before I was hired? Or rather...
L: ...after I was hired?
F: At the time you only did ...
L: ...(to work) in the plant?
F: ... this kind of work, nothing else. The work of...
L: ... (painting) pictures?
L: Ah yes, (now I understand). As it happened – because in those days before (I had a job) I did not have the courage to do, say, ten (paintings) a week, I only did three, four.
F: Three, four, a week?
F: Selling them at...
L: I was selling them very cheap, just to break even. One Zaire, two Zaire, something like that. (That way) I got some money to play around with. [chuckles]
F: Money to play around with?
F: But you were eating at your relatives’?
L: Yes. [chuckles]
F: [laughs] Now, in your view, if you were only to do these things [knocks on painting], only the work of painting...
L: That is to say...
F: ... wouldn’t you maybe make the equivalent of your wages at Gécamines?
L: Agreed, if you get up enough courage and tell yourself, I’ll stick to the work of painting and if there are customers around. But in Zaire customers for painting are few.
F: [incredulous] There are few?
L: Yes, few. Because....
F: What I am beginning to observe when I get around – wait a moment [noise, something falling] – visiting the homes of people, almost half of the households...
F: ....have paintings.
L: [overlapping]...paintings. Agreed, but (even) if half of the households have painting...
L: ... and the artists are many, no single person is going to earn much.
|27. F: kumbe wee hauna na courage ya: kuacha kazi ingine:
paka ku: fanya kazi ya artiste?
L: mais non/ mi hata minatumika: kama muntu anafanya commande yake/ suivant façon tutasikilizana mi ni capable ya kutumika/ minatoka mu kazi: minatumika: durant ile siku tuta: tutaleta delais: minaisha ile kazi: ...?... [claps]
F: [pauses] mais: maneno kazi ya mineur iko nguvu/
L: oui d’accord iko nguvu puisque: kazi tu minatumika: huit heures de temps tuko chini/
F: hauna na namna ya kuendelea?
L: kuendelea na kazi ya mineur?
F: ya: kupanda ku macotes?
L: impossible puisque: iko madifficultés mingi sana/
F: Kipushi [pauses] paka bana: banku: engager: unakala tu mu cote moya/
L: [chuckles] puisque: ni paka vile/ nitafanya namna gani?
L: ya kuservir uta...?... kiloko paka na ile situation/
F: mm: c’est vrais/ oui ile: minaisha: kujua/ tena kama unapata matata na kapita: ao: mm/ mais: [pauses] ts: kumbe kwako ni paka kazi: mpembeni: ya kuuzisha: peintures?
F: paka juu ya: paka juu ya ku: kujifu: furahisha: ao juu ya: kamata ma: Makuta kiloko mpembeni?
L: minafanya maneno ya Makuta/
F: maneno ya Makuta/
L: puisque: kama unafanya maneno ya kujifurahisha:
L: kuenea paka hata quatre: kwa mufano dis unifansie tableau: minaofanya gratuitement bule/
F: ah oui/
L: ou bien ilikuwa impossible kufanya gratuitement/ puisque utaenda kuuza toile: mi si Makuta ya mufuko na huyu/ peinture unauza/
L: pinceaux unauza/ kumbe sasa: main-d’oeuvre yako/ minakwenda ovyo/ donc il faut: paka banakupayer/
F: donc: ina: inaf: inafaa absolument: kufwata macommandes/
L: ndiyo/ puisque ...?...tu kufanya: sawa bintu sawa mapaysages paka ...?...? et puis unaenda sawa mu marché mais: au Zaire ...?... utafika nayo mu marché: peut-être deux jours: haupata muntu ya kuuzika: sawa unakuwa cher sana/
L: c’est plus ou moins kama unafanya portraits: muntu ule wa nsula yake anapenda: anaretirer: ça va/
F: eko sûr/
L: naprofiter Makuta/
F: ah ndiyo/
|27. F: So you don’t have the courage to quit this other
job and just work as an artist?
L: But no, (that’s not it) I work if someone places his order. Depending on what we agreed on I am able to do the work. I get off at work and I work. During those days we’ll set for the deadline I finish the work...?... and that’s it. [claps]
F: [pauses] But being a mine worker is a hard job.
L: Of course it’s hard, in my line of work we are underground for eight hours at a time.
F: Is there no way for you to improve your situation?
L: Improve as a mineworker?
F: By rising to a higher rank?
L: Impossible, because there are lots of difficulties.
F: At Kipushi. [pauses] So you get yourself hired and then stay on at one and the same rank.
L: [chuckles] Exactly. What am I going to do?
L: It’s a matter of accepting it, you are going to accomplish little in such a situation.
F: Mm, that’s true. Yes, I know about those things. Especially if get into trouble with the foreman. Mm. [pauses] So, in your case this work is just a sideline, selling paintings?
F: Just for your own pleasure, or to make a little money on the side?
L: I do that for the money.
F: For the money.
L: Because if you do it for you own pleasure....
L: ...four paintings would be enough. For instance, if some friend asks me, do a painting for me, I do it for nothing.
F: I see.
L: Then again, it would be impossible to do it for nothing. You are going to buy the canvas – I don’t have money for that in my pocket – you buy the paint...
L: ...you buy the brushes. Furthermore, there is the work you put into it. And I get nothing. So they must pay you.
F: Therefore, you really must go for orders.
L: Yes. Because (even) if all you do as a painter is things like landscapes ...?...and then you go to a market, but in Zaire ...?... if you get to a market (with your paintings) it may happen that (you wait for) two days without finding a customer. That way you are going to have a lot of expenses.
L: It’s more or less alright if you do portraits. A person who likes a picture of his face will come and get it, that’s alright.
F: It’s sure.
L: (In that case) I make some money.
F: Ah, yes.
|28. F: bon/ mara ingine wee uku na kintu
ya ku: kuniuliza?
L: ndiyo/ ah: njo kusema una: unaenea ku: kuniexpliquer muzuri muzuri: façon niko na: uza:
L: na: namuna minatumika naye namna gani/
F: kuko: kuku: kukuelezea?
F: hapana/ twiko: mbele tunakutana na baartistes/ sijue kama madame alikutana naye: na: na Maurice/
F: namna gani/ tena tuna: tunaangaria tu: tunataka kama: kila artiste: abebe tu série yake: sawa: tunaisha tuna: tunaita série/ si njo uko na: uko na:
L: wingi wa:
F: nombre: na wingi fulani:
F: ya: ya tableaux ya kuachana/ eh? kila artiste eko na: na: na wa: sawa kabila yake/
L: kabila yake ya kutoka ndiyo/
F: eh? wee kusema ah: mi banafanya tu: mi: minafanya tu yote: yo: non/
L: hapana/ [chuckles]
F: pengine muko spécialisés/ sawa wee: zaidi zaidi ni ma: portraits/ mansula:
F: ao mansula ya bakubwa ya inchi: ao: mansula ya: mwenyewe: [claps] kufanya commande/
F: tena: sawa ile/ [points to a painting] ile: utaweza kutaya namna gani? ni: ni:
L: mu kiSwahili?/
F: ni kabila gani ya tableaux?
L: hii tableau? iko paysage/
F: iko paysage?
F: hii ingine vile vile?
L: ile nayee iko paka paysage/ puisque...
F: paka paysage?
L: oui/ ku images: paka vile tu/
F: njo paysage?
L: oui/ tunaconsiderer sawa un peu gani: puisque portrait tu banaita paka: personnellement ...?...
F: ... ah: mamba muntu?
L: [chuckles] ah: tena naconsiderer nayo paka sawa paysage/ puisque inaréprésenter ma: bintu bingine mule ndani/
F: iko paysage vile vile?
F: [pauses] bengine balisema: ni kintu ya: sawa ni ukumbusho/
L: ndiyo/ ...?...
F: [overlapping] kama: kama banafanya: banafanya colonie/
F: si njo ukumbusho?
F: bantu banaomba? unifansie ukumbusho?
L: d’accord mais: puisque ku: banaita souvenir/
F: souvenir ya: ...?...?
F: [pointing at painting] sasa hii: ni souvenir ao ni paysage?
L: nayee iko paka souvenir/
F: kumbe itakuwa: itaweza kuwa: maneno minaona kila mara: kama minaona: bengine banafikaka: [claps] paysage ni kusema: ni mugini: miti: mawingu: mayi: tena muntu ya kulo: mwenye kulopola: kunaisha/ njo paysage/ hakuna arisi/
L: puisque façon ya....
F: ... hakuna arisi ndani/
L: façon ya ...?...
F: sasa wee ulinielezea: ya ile mbili:
F: pa kutoka ku: ku nani: ku windo/ mm?
F: ulinielezea: arisi yake/ ilikuwa na arisi/
L: arisi ya: bale bantu?
L: si ndiyo: histoire/
F: ...mais: normalement mu paysages:
F: muko na histoire?
L: d’accord/ kuko histoire/ pale minakuexpliquer: balikwenda ku: ku: kuwinda:
L: ndiyo/ kule kuwinda balikwenda: namupata:
F: c’est ça/
L: léopard/ et puis: banatuer léopard: banafunga ku ile miti: juu ya kubeba facilement: banaanza kwenda ku nyumba sasa/
F: tena uliongez: uliongeza: asema: ah: hii ni wakati ya: ya bankambo: ya bankambo...
L: ...ndiyo: si paka wakacheza nayo?
F: bon/ kumbe: minaona hii tableau hii:
F: ni sawa: eko histoire: iko arisi/
L: iko histoire moya ...?...
F: ...alakini si paysage bule/
L: mais: kuita très facilement: ku: kujua: kufaire comprendre muntu: iko paka paysage/
F: [claps] bon/
L: puisque yee ba: la plus part ya population: inayua tu paysage: ni: kintu moya banaitumika comme ça/ comme ça banataya paysage d’accord: banacomprendre faciliment/
L: sawa/ kama unasema...
F: ...kama: kama banafika kwako: banaomba: nafa: unifansie: mawingu?
L: ah/ kama analomba...
L: ...mawingu: donc: il faut pa kuya...
F: ...banataya nini? neno: neno bana: banatumia ni nini?
L surtout? sur: donc: eh: zaidi banatumia paka paysage/
F: [pauses] paysage/ ao mamba muntu/
L: ao mamba muntu/
F: ao photo/
L: ao photo/
|28. F: Alright. Perhaps there is something you want to ask
L: Yes. Well, let’s just say you really managed to explain to me (what it means that) I sell (paintings).
L: And the way I work with them.
F: Explaining this to you?
F: No. (What we do is) first we meet with artists. I don’t know (what happened) when Madame met with Maurice...
F: ...how this went. Then we just observe. We like every artist to bring a series of his works – we have been calling it a series. Don’t you have one...
L: A quantity of...
F: ...a number (of them), a certain quantity...
L: I do.
F: ... of different paintings, right? Every artists has something like his own kind (of paintings).
L: His own group or origin, yes.
F: Right? You are not going to say I just do every kind, no.
L: No. [chuckles]
F: Maybe you specialize. Like in your case it’s portraits, faces.
F: Either portraits of the country’s important people or portraits of someone particular who [claps] put in an order.
F: Another thing, like this one [pointing to a painting] how are you going to call it? It’s a...
L: In Swahili?
F: What kind of painting is it?
L: This painting? It’s a landscape.
F: It’s a landscape?
F: This other one also?
L: That, too, is just a landscape. Because...
F: Just a landscape?
L: Yes. Going on the images, it is just the same.
F: That makes it a landscape?
L: Yes. We consider it a bit, how shall I say? Because they call a portrait just (a portrait). Personally...?...
F: ... ah, what about Mamba Muntu?
L: [chuckles] Ah, that one I also think of as something like a landscape because it represents all sorts of things (lit. other things).
F: So it is a landscape, too?
F: [pauses] There are some who said it is something like a reminder.
L: Yes. ...?...
F: [overlapping] When they do (a painting of) the Colony.
F: Isn’t that a reminder?
L: A reminder.
F: (Is that how) people ask for it? Make a reminder for me?
L: Yes, but – they also call it a souvenir.
F: Souvenir of ...?...?
F: [pointing at painting] Now, this one, is it a souvenir or a landscape?
L: That, too, is a souvenir.
F: So it could be – because, what I observe as others come by [claps] they say a landscape, that’s a village, tree, clouds, water and (perhaps) someone who is fishing, and that’s it. That is a landscape. There is no story, arisi.
L: Because the way of ...
F: There is not story in it.
L: The way of...
F: Now, you explained to me – about those two (paintings).
F: Where people return from a hunt, right?
F: You told me what the story was. It had a story.
L: A story about those people?
F: A story.
L: Of course (there is) a story.
F: But, normally, in landscapes...
F: ... do you have a story?
L: Agreed. There is a story (in this painting), as I explained to you then: They went out hunting.
L: Right, (at the place) where they went hunting they caught...
F: That’s what I mean.
L: ...a leopard. And then they kill the leopard, tie him to a pole so as to carry it easily, and begin to walk back home.
F: Furthermore, you added something. You said that this was in the time of the ancestors...
L: ...It was. (Don’t you see) how they were dancing with it?
F: Alright. So then, when I look at this painting...
F: ...it is as if it were a story, histoire, a tale, arisi.
L: It’s a story...?...
F: But it is not just a landscape.
L: But (calling it a landscape) is a matter of using a designation that comes easy, one that let’s a person understand that this is just a landscape.
F: [clap] Fine.
L: The way it is, most people only know (the term) landscape, it’s something that they employ just like that. That way if (a painting) is called a landscape they understand without a problem.
F: I see.
L: For instance, if you say...
F: When (customers) come to you do they ask you to do a painting of mawingu, clouds, for them?
L: Well, if the person asks...
F: (Meaning) a landscape.
L: ...for mawingu. In that case one must, to come...
F: What do the call it? What is the word they employ?
L: Most of the time? Well, most of the time they use (the French term) landscape, paysage.
F: [pauses] Paysage. Or (those terms for other kinds of paintings like) Mamba Muntu.
L: Or Mamba Muntu.
F: Or a portrait, photo
L: Or a portrait.
bengine balisema: artiste: eko na: artiste eko na vocation/ vocation mu
Swahili kama ni wingu? kama: kama ni nini? sawa kuwanye: kuwaonyesha bantu:
bintu ya zamani: hautakuwa ku: kumbusha?
L: ah/ artiste eko nawakumbusha/
F: njo kazi yake?
L: ndiyo/ anakumbusha: mambo iliyopita/
F: kila artiste anafanya vile vile?
L: ah mais: kuko bengine: habana baartistes/
L: sawa vile nakuonyesha sawa baba baKapenda/
F: bale baKapenda oui/
L: puisque: uko mungine: anabeba ile kintu ile baliisha kumuonyesha: sawa afanye hivi: fini mbila tu/
L: mais: eko incapable wa kufanya hata croquis: sawa vile anaangaria anafanya na crayon: iko incapable [claps] yee anashinda/ muntu: muntu ya vile yee hapana yua dessin/ mm/
F: kumbe: artiste ya kweli:
L: artiste anayua kufanya croquis: rapidemenet:
L: et puis: anafanya dessin moya: m: mbio mbio sana: ile iko anaona na macho/
L: puisque: artiste yee hapana kuemployer surtout paka photo: eko anacalquer ou bien anafanya tout ça/
F: mm/ na: sawa vile ulisema: zaidi kazi yake ni ku: kukumbusha/
F: bantu/ [pause]
|29. F: There were some who said that an artist has a
vocation. Vocation, in Swahili, is it something like a calling,
or what is it? Something like (the calling) to show people things of the past
that you wouldn’t (otherwise) recall?
L: Ah, an artist is someone who reminds them.
F: Is that his occupation?
L: Yes. He recalls matters that happened.
F: Every artist does this?
L: Yes, but there are some who are no artists.
L: For instance, as I pointed out to you, people like Kapenda.
F: The likes of Kapenda, yes.
L: And then there is this person who picks up something he was shown and asked to do. (He just does it) and that’s it.
L: But he is incapable of even doing a sketch. He looks and (begins to) make a pencil drawing but he is incompetent, he does not manage. Such a person knows nothing about drawing. Mm.
F: Therefore, a true artist...
L: ...an artist can do a sketch in no time.
L: Furthermore, he quickly makes a drawing of something he see with his eyes.
L: An artist is not someone who uses a photograph most of the time or copies something by tracing, all that.
F: Mm. As you said, above all, his job is to make remember.
F: (Make) people (remember). [pause]
niliisha kuelezea: kazi yetu? ao uko na ulizo ingine?
F: kiisha yake: bon: donc: donc tunauza moya moya moya:
F: tableaux/ kiisha tunasumbulia na baartistes/ mm? maneno: tutaweza kuwa: kufanya namna mbili/ paka kuuza tableau: minaangaria: mina: minaona ni: nani/ mm? kwa mufano/
F: tunaona: bantu banarudia: kwa kuwa kulumbata: mbele/ mais kwa mufano ulili: uliniambia kitu moya: mi siwezi kujua/
F: maana yake: ya imbwa/
L: ya imbwa/
F: sijue nini imbwa inakosa kule: na iko/
L: ainsi dire/
F: ikoako mu: ile: ulinielezea/
F: mm? ni kusema ni mufano/ infaa donc: juu ya kusikia zaidi/
F: mawazo ya artiste: Zairois:
F: inafaa tusumbilie naye/
F: parce: parce que wee wa mu: si uliona mufano?
F: mi sikukuwa na namna ya kusema ah: kama alisahabu imbwa: kama ni kitu gani/
L: [chuckles] mais: par example: kama unaenda ku chasse/
L: wee unalamuka mu nyumba: unataka kwenda ku chasse: personnellement:
L: mais utabeba imbwa: ou bien sacoche: si ile unapenda?
L: eh? suivant:
F: sacoche na...
L: ...roho yako...
F: na bintu yako ya:
L: oui unabeba sacoche yako na wee/
L: mais yeeye ata: atabeba bintu gani?
L: puisque yee iko obligé/
L: oui/ pita huku twende/ anapita/
L: on part: c’est fini/ hana kitu ya kubeba/
F: mm/ ndiyo/ sasa minasikia/ mais: si unaona: inafaa kusumbulia na baartistes/
L: eh ndiyo/
F: inafaa bani: banielezee/
F: mm? njo kazi yetu/
F: njo kazi yetu/ kiisha: kama tunamaliza: tunafanya sawa ma: ?quasi état:
F: tutaona: bon: baartistes ku Zaire: banaikalaka namna gani/ banatumika: namna gani/ beko banawaza juu ya ma: juu ya: ufundi yabo: banawaza nini/
F: mm? tena bantu banauz: bananu: bale bantu banunua: tableaux: beko na mawazo gani/ mm? banatafuta zaidi: banatafuta nini/ maneno: iliichana/ nilipita mara ya: kwanza/ mu mwanzo: nilipita: mu soixante-six/ hapa/ mi sikuona kintu ku ma: ku manyumba/ matableaux/ ao kama ilikuwa tu kiloko sana: mi si: sikuona: enfin: haikuingia ku: ku mecho/ mm? tandis-que sasa: tunatembea:
L: puisque hapa sasa: maneno zamani artiste si alikuwa na mikanda/ eh?
F: artiste: alikuwa?
L: na mikanda/
F: mikanda ya mi:
L: puisque hakuwa: hakuwa artiste alikuwa anauzisha bintu: partout comme ça/
L: alikuwa kuuzisha bintu paka: mu fasi ile: ya ku fundi tu fini/
L: mais jusqu’à présent: bale baartistes beko mingi: banakuisha masomo: bengine ni don paka vile/ une fois anenda ku: saidia ule makufunda:
L: anabakilia na ile idée mu kichwa: fini: nayee anakuwa sawa niko artiste paka vile mais c’est pour celà banakuwa mingi/
F: mm/ [pauses] oui oui/ bon/ nazani ni mwisho/
|30. Alright. Did I manage to explain what our work is
about? Or do you have another question?
F: At first, we bought here and there.
F: Paintings (I mean). Then we had conversations with the artists. Right? Actually, we could do it two ways: Just buy a painting, look at it and see what it is about. For example.
F: At a first glance we see that there are people who come back from hunting. But in this particular case you told me something that I could not know.
F: The meaning of the dog.
L: Of the dog.
F: I don’t know what is wrong with the dog there but there is something.
L: In a manner of speaking.
F: It’s in (the painting), you explained this to me.
F: Mm? This is an example, showing that one must, if one really wants to understand...
F: ... the thoughts of a Zairean artist.
F: One must talk with him.
F: You saw the example, didn’t you?
F: I had no way of telling (what was wrong), was it that (the hunter) forgot (to take along) his dog, or what was it?
L: [chuckles] But, for example, when you go hunting.
L: You wake up in your house and you want to go hunting – speaking for myself.
L: You are going to take the dog along and also a bag Isn’t that what you like (to do)?
L: Right? It depends on...
F: (You mean) a bag with...
L: ...how you feel.
F: ...with your gear.
L: Yes, you take along your own bag.
L: But this person there, what kind of things is he going to carry?
L: Because he has to.
F: He has to.
L: Yes. (If he is told), go this way, let’s go, he goes along.
L: We are leaving, that’s it. He does not have a thing to take along.
F: Mm. Yes, now I understand. But you see one must talk with the artists.
L: Well, yes.
F: They need to explain (things) to me.
F: Right? That is our work.
F: That is our work. Then, when we are finished (talking) we do something like an inventory.
F: And we are going to see what the situation is of artists in Zaire. How they work, what they think about their profession.
F: Right. Also, what the people think, those who buy paintings. Right? What they really are after. Because things used to be different. The first time I came and stayed here, that was in sixty-six. I didn’t see a thing in the houses, (I mean) paintings. Or if there were very few I did see them. They didn’t register (lit. enter the eyes), right? Whereas now, when we get around...
L: Nowadays – because in the past an artist had papers, you understand?
F: An artist had?
F: Papers of...
L: That means that an artist was not able to sell his stuff just anywhere.
L: He used to sell things only in places where there was there was education, and that was it.
L: But at the present time, many of those artists finished school while for others (painting) is just a gift. (Such a person) would sometimes help one who had training...
L: He would keep this idea in his head and this way he, too, would become an artist. That is why there are so many artists (nowadays)..
F: Mm. [pauses] Yes, yes. Alright. I think we have come to the end.
|31. F: sasa:
tutafanya namna gani? juu ya: tusikilizana mbele juu ya bei/
L: ah/ bei?
F: bei/ ulisema: iliichana: inaachana na ma: nani: mansula: na mapaysages inaachana/
F: uombe tu/
L: mapaysages minafanya deux Zaire/ hii maportraits minafanya deux Zaire cinquante: sawa ya Lumumba trois Zaire/
F: trois Zaire ya Lumumba?
F: maneno ya ile mu: munene sana?
F: alafu mamba muntu?
L: mamba muntu?
L: minafanya un Zaire cinquante/
F: un Zaire cinquante?
F: inafaa kuma: kuisha mais:
L: aah paka inaisha/
L: tena mitaleta maexemplaires ingine kama: mina: puisque nilikuwa juu ya kujua adresse convenablement/
L: comme ça kama minaisha: ku ile minayua: nitaenda kufansia...
F: hata mu le nani: mu le vingt-cinq:
F: tunapashwa kufika Kipushi/
L: d’accord/ comme ça nitaisha...
F: [overlapping] ...?...
L: ...maexemplaires ya mingi: kiloko: kiloko:
F: bon/ aah: nazani tu: tukamate tu: mbele tukamate nani: hii mbili/ [picks up painting] hii:
F: Lumumba: [picks up painting] Lumumba: na: hii mamba muntu: utaisha mbele/
F: mm? kama tunapita Kipushi:
F: ça va?
L: puisque nitafanya deux: ...?... utachagula ile temps kwa: bengine/
F: oui/ ça va?
F: o.k. – Madame...
[end of recording]
|31. F: Now, how are we going to do this? Let’s first come
to an understanding about the price.
L: Ah, the price?
F: The price. You said it was different for portraits and landscapes.
F: Just name it.
L: For landscapes I make it two Zaire, for these portraits two Zaire fifty, and for the one of Lumumba three Zaire.
F: Three Zaire for (the portrait of) Lumumba?
F: Because it is quite large?
F: But what about Mamba Muntu?
L: Mamba Muntu?
L: I make it one Zaire fifty.
F: One Zaire fifty?
F: But it needs finishing.
L: Yes, only when it is finished.
L: And then I’ll bring along other examples because (today) I just came so I would know your address.
L: That way I know, when I am finished with this one I am going to do ...
F: On the twenty-fifth...
F: We are supposed to be in Kipushi.
L: Alright. That way I’ll finish...
F: [overlapping] ...?...
L: ... quite a few examples.
L: I’ll do them for you.
F: Fine. Let’s see, first we’ll take those two. [picks up painting] This one.
F: (Of) Lumumba. [picks up painting] Lumumba, and this Mamba Muntu you are going to finish first.
F: Mm. When we come through Kipushi.
F: We’ll buy it.
L: Actually, I’ll do two of them and you will have a choice then.
F: Yes. Alright?
F: O.K. – Madame...
[end of recording]
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