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A conversation with Tshibumba Kandu Matulu, recorded December 12 and 16, 1973 at J. Fabian’s home in Lubumbashi.
| 1. F: ... utasema na mi: eh? T: bon/ F: oui/ T: sawa namna gani: pardon? F: eh: mwanzo: T: mwanzo ya kazi yangu? F: c'est ça/ sawa: mwanzo yako/ ah: ulizaliwa: mu mwaka gani? T: na quarante sept/ F: na quarante sept? T: eeh/ F: hapa mu Lubumbashi? T: na Lubumbashi/ F: na jina yako ni Tshibum: T: Tshibumba Kanda Matulu/ F: Kanda Matulu/ T: eheh/ F: hapa Lubumbashi? T: Lubumbashi/ F: mu commune ao? mu Gécamines ao? T: non: na zone Kenya/ F: na zone Kenya/ T: ichangaliki zamani: mais: commune Lubum: nani: Nyashi/ F: ya/ na bazazi yako: balikuwa kufika: balitoka wapi? T: bazazi yangu ni bantu ya: Kasai Oriental/ F: ya Kasai Oriental/ T: eeh/ F: balikuwa kufika hapa: T: banafika hapa juu kazi/ F: kwa kutumika kazi yabo: T: alitumika kazi: na Amato Frères/ F: ...?.../ na Amato Frères? T: na Amato Frères/ mbele alitumika na: KDL: BCK ya zamani: F: aah/ T: kisha accident ya Kalule Nord: wakati ya basoldats Anglais: anaanguka na mashua: anatoka anaacha kazi/ F: aaah na Kalule: Kalule Nord ya pont kule? T: ah: ya pont eeh/ F: ali: ali: alian: T: yee njo alianguka na mashua ile/ F: baba yako? T: baba yangu mm/ F: eyo/ T: pamoja na: nkundi yote ya basoldats na ma: wagons: sawa nani: mavoitures: yote ilianguka mule/ F: mm/ T: nayee alitoka muzima/ |
1. F: ...just talk to me. T: Good. F: Yes. T: And how, for example? Sorry. F: Well, about the beginning. T The beginning of my work? F: That's it. So, to start with your beginning: What year were you born? T: In 1947. F: 1947? T: Yes. F: Here in Lubumbashi? T: In Lubumbashi. F: And your name is Tshibum... T: Tshibumba Kanda Matulu. F: Kanda Matulu. T: Yes. F: So, you were born here in Lubumbashi? T: Lubumbashi. F: In a township or in the workers' camp of the Gécamines mining company? T: No, in Kenia township. F: Kenia township. T: In a small place that had been there for a long time, called Nyashi (lit. straw-covered huts). F: And your parents were immigrants. Where did they come from? T: My parents are people from East Kasai. F: From East Kasai. T: Yes. F: So they were immigrants to this region? T: The came here for work. F: To do their work. T: Father worked at Amato Frères. F: ...?... At the firm of Amato Frères? T: Amato Frères. Before that, he had worked for the KDL railway company, the one that used to be called BCK. F: Ahah. T: After the accident he had near Kalule North station -- the time when a train with English soldiers went down a ravine -- he quit and left his work. F: I see, Kalule North, Kalule North, that's where the bridge is? T: Yes, the place where the bridge is. F: So he fell... T: He went down with that train. F: Your own father? T: My father, mm. F: I see. T: Together with a whole group of soldiers, the railway cars, everything went down there. F: Mm. T: And he came out of it alive. |
| 2. F: na wee ulifwata masomo? T: mimi nalifanya deux ans: section commerciale c'est fini/ F: mm/ kiisha ulitoka/ T: nalitoka/ kisha kutoka: naanza ku: pima peinture kidogo: kidogo: kidogo: ku nyumba/ na hivi naendelea/ kuendelea na soixante et un: eeh: minakwenda ku: Kambove: F: mm/ T: kutumika kazi ya: ya: quoi: kontrak eeh? kiloko/ nasaidia kule na Cofoka: ...?... Cofoza zamani/ F: mm/ T: kisha natoka kule: nakuya na: na Likasi/ kutoka Likasi nabebana na baba mu soixante neuf: le vingt trois juin: tunakwenda pa: Luena/ tunaanza na kuanza paka pale/ na baba: F: ku: ku: kutumika kazi? T: kutumika kazi ya peinture/ F: ya peinture kule? T: aah: njo naanza: sasa kunaisha/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ natumika weee: tunakwenda na Kamina/ c'est à dire mu: le: ilikuwa tulitoka ma le dix-sept: oui: le dix-sept septembre mu soixante neuf: F: mm/ T: tunafika pa Kamina/ natumika Kamina weee: nafanya mwaka napata nazania tatu/ natoka tena: minakuya huku/ kisha kutoka huku: nakuwa kupanda nakwenda Kalemie/ F: eyo/ T: aah/ toka Kalemie: eh: nakwenda: ah: Kindu/ F: Kindu/ T: natoka Kindu nafika Bukavu/ kisha tena: narudi tena huku/ sasa pale nakuya mi moja/ kiisha tena natoka pale: nakwenda weee: mpaka Luluabourg: na: Port Franqui ya zamani: sasa Ilebo/ F: Ilebo/ T: aah/ kisha tena minarudia/ nakuwa kufika mu Likasi: nakamata tena njia: nakuwa kala mu Kipushi/ F: mm/ T: sababu ku Likasi ya kuweza kutembea/ F: aah/ T: eeh ni fasi ...?... F: mu Kipushi kule una na nyumba yako ao? T: mu Kipushi niko na nyumba yangu/ F: unalipa? T: na nyum: nalipa eeh/ F: aah/ T: eeh/ F: na unaikala mu: pamoya na baba yako? T: apana/ sasa niko mi moja na ...?... bibi yangu/ F: aah/ T: baba anabakia na Likasi: iko na parcelle yake kule/ |
F: Did you go to school? T: (After elementary school) I got to doing two years of trade school, that's all. F: Mm, and then you quit. T: The T: I quit. After I quit I began to try a little painting at home. And that is what I went on doing until 1961 when I went to Kambove. F: Mm. T: I was there to do occasional work as a day laborer for the Cofoka ...?... as the Cofoza (construction company) used to be called then. F: Mm. T: Then I left there and went to Likasi. From Likasi I moved along with my father in 69, on June 23, 1969 we went to Luena. There we started out again and Father... F: To work? T: To do the work of painting. F: Painting, in that place? T: Well, that is what I started with, but now it's definitive. F: Mm. T: Anyhow, I worked for a while, then we went to Kamina. The date on which we left was September 17, 1969. F: Mm. T: We arrived in Kamina and there I worked for quite a while, about three years, I believe. Then I left again and arrived here (in Lubumbashi). After that I left and went up to Kalemie.. F: I see. T: From Kalemie I went to Kindu. F: Kindu. T: I left Kindu and got to Bukavu. After that I came back to this place. Here I was just by myself, so I left again and went all over the country, to Lululabourg, the former Port Franqi, now called Ilebo. F: Ilebo. T: Yes, and then I came back. I got to Likasi but then took the road again and now I live in Kipushi. F: Mm. T: So that I can get easily to Likasi. F: I see... do you have your home in Kipushi? T: In Kipushi I have my home. F: Are you renting? T: Yes, I am renting. F: I see. T: Yes. F: And do you live together with your father? T: No, right now I am by myself together with ...?... my wife. F: I see. T: Father stays in Likasi. He owns a piece of land there. |
| 3.F: ah bon/ [closes door] kumbe ulianza kazi ya peinture: ulianza
mwanzo: ulianza hapa: Lubumbashi ao mu Likasi? T: non Likasi njo nalianza ku nyumba ya baba/ F: ah bon/ T: mm/ c'est que na dix sept ans sawa naliwezea kuelezea: njo fasi nalianza ...?... F: una: fahamu mapeintres ingine: ba: mwenye kutoka Likasi? T: benye kutoka Likasi? mi nafahamu/ F: sasa be: banatumika hapa? T: banatumika hapa/ F: jina yabo? T: eh: ts: quoi: Nkulu: F: Nkulu wa Nkulu? T: Nkulu wa Nkulu: eh naa: quoi: jina yake ni nani? K: (his otherwise silent companion prompts): Kapenda/ F: Kapenda/ T: ah oui Kapenda/ sababu unafika kwake tena vilevile: tulisumbulia naye: alirudi/ F: c'est ça/ c'est ça/ bale bawili/ T: eeh/ F: bale: ah: T: na batteurs: F: balikuelezea? T: ya: hapana: pardon: hapana habakunielezee/ F: kama shee tulikuwa kufika kwake? Kapenda? T: hapana/ F: tuli: tuliku: tulifika kwake/ T: kwake eh? F: mm/ T: bon/ ni sawa/ F: tulisumbulia: tuliuza ma: ...?... ta: tableaux ingine: T: bon/ |
3. F: Alright
then, [closes door] so you first began with the work of painting here in
Lubumbashi, or was it in Likasi? T: No, it was in Likasi where I started, in my father's house. F: I see. T: Mm, I could add that I was seventeen when I started there. F: Do you know some other painters that come from Likasi? T: From Likasi? I know some. F: And now they work here? T: They work here. F: What are their names? T: Oh, wait, what was it again? Nkulu. F: Nkulu wa Nkulu. T: Nkulu wa Nkulu, yes, and, what was it, what was his name? K: (his otherwise silent companion[2] prompts) Kapenda. F: Kapenda. T: Ah, yes, Kapenda. Because you also went by his place we talked to him and he came back. F: That’s it. That’s it. Those two. T: Yes. F: Then, those... T: And (I know) some who beat (copper). F: Did he tell you (about us)? T: That – sorry, no, they did not tell me. F: That we visited him? Kapenda? T: No. F: We visited him. T: Him? F: Mm. T: Alright, that’s how is. F: We talked and we bought...?...some paintings. T: Alright. |
| 4. F: na: bien/ ah: ts: kumbe: ulianza/ ulianza
peinture mwaka gani? T: s: eh: peinture nalianza: normalement nalianza ma soixante neuf: njo nali: kamata kazi na mikono/ F: ah bon/ T: eeh/ F: kutoka soixante neuf: T: na soixante six: soixante six: nilikuwa nikuwa nafunza tu/ F: mm/ ni kufunda wapi? T: nilianza kufunza mi mwenyewe peke/ kupima/ F: kupima? T: eeh/ F: pasipo kufwata: T: apana: pasipo kufwata masomo: F: masomo ao: T: wala muntu ...?... F: ao: mamodèles ya: T: hapana/ F: ya peintres ingine? T: yangu tu: mu kichwa yangu/ ku mwenye peke/ F: eyo/ T: eeh/ F: na: mm/ kutoka hii wakati: ya soixante neuf: ulikuwa paka tu: kutumika hii kazi? T: paka kazi ii weee na leo ii/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ na kila siku natumikaka kila siku: kwa kila siku tu/ F: sawa: mu: una: unafanya matableaux ngapi kila siku? T: kwa siku: F: ao kila: kila: juma? T: ...?... sawa: paysage: puisque shina fort ku paysage eh? F: mm/ T: niko fort sawa ku ile tableaux uliona ingine ku nyumba na mahistoire eh? F: mm/ T: sawa histoire: niko fort/ nitaweza kufanya fimbo ile: [points to a picture of the Belgian Colony] tatu/ ou bien Lumumba nitaweza kufanya mbili kama minatumika nguvo/ F: mm/ T: c'est que sababu yapashe ni: tafute paka kutengeneza ndani/ F: mais: mapaysages: donc: T: paysages: nitaweza kufanya ao tano: ao shita/ F: mm/ T: saa ingine kumi: kama mina: nalamuka tu muzuri nitatumika nguvu/ F: mm/ mm/ T: eeh/ F: mm/ na kiisha uta: una: unatembea ku: kuuzuisha? T: kuuzisha? ka: mi mwenyewe nakuyaka wakati minatumaka batoto/ F: na mafasi yote? T: ku fasi ingine ni minakwendaka mi mwenyewe peke/ [recording interrupted] |
4. F: Alright
then, so, what was the year when you started painting? T: Let's see, I took up painting steadily in 1969. That’s when I took the work into my hands. F: I see. T: Yes. F: From 1969 on. T: Actually, it was in 1966, but I was only learning then? F: Mm, where did you learn. T: I began learning all by myself, trying. F: Trying? T: Yes. F: Without following (lessons)? T: No, without going to a school. F: A school or... T: ...or learning from some one else. F: Or did you have models? T: No. F: Other painters (I mean)? T: No, it was in my head, (it came) from me alone. F: I see. T: Yes. F: So, since 1969 you have been doing only this sort of work? T: Just this work, all the time up to this day. F: Mm. T: Yes, every day, I work every single day, day after day. F: How many pictures do you make each day? T: Per day? F: Or every week. T: ....?... (Well, it depends.) Landscapes are not my strength, right? F: Mm. T: I am good, for instance, at the kinds of pictures you saw in my house, the historical ones, right? F: Mm. T: In history, I am strong. Of the flogging there [points to a picture of the Belgian Colony] I can do three a day. Pictures of Lumumba I can do two a day if I work hard. F: Mm. T: Because you must seek to work with care on detail. F: But landscapes? T: Landscapes, I could do five or six. F: Mm. T: Sometimes ten, if I get up well and work hard. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Mm, and then you go around to sell them? T: Selling? I do it myself whenever I have the time, (otherwise) I have young people working for me. F: Everywhere? T: There are some places where I go alone. [recording interrupted] |
| 5. F: ... juu ya kazi/ tulikuwa kusumbulia juu ya: ah:
kazi: kazi/ na: shi: minasahabu sawa vile: ii point ya mwisho ilikuwa nini? T: point ya mwisho: nitaweza kukumbuka nazania/ uliuliza kama unafanyaka kazi: yako: peke: ou bien? unafanyaka kazi ingine? F: ah bon/ c'est ça/ T: na minasema kama nafanyaka tu paka kazi yangu peke tu/ F: peke/ T: akuna kazi ingine mm/ F: hakuna kazi ingine/ uko na: na bengine eh eh: ya kumus: ya kukusaidia? mu kazi? T: ku: paka mutoto hapa anasaidiaka kidogo/ tunaanza naye: F: ...?... T: nazani tuko na juma moja/ F: juma moja? T: eeh/ F: na kusaidia namna gani? T: kunisaidia sawa kunipasulisha mbao: F: mm/ T: na kunipopesha manguo/ F: kuni? T: kupopesha/ F: kupopesha/ T: nguo/ kule ku cadrement/ F: mm/ T: kisha kupopa: tuna: minapenta: yee anapakala latex: minafanya ma: croquis: naanza kupenta kule/ F: mm/ T: aah/ F: mm/ na: pa kuuzisha: unatembea kila sika na unapashwa kufika hapa mu ville ao? T: pa kuuzisha: sawa madérangements ya: ya m: ya bakubwa eh? ku mambo ya mukanda eh? sawa shee bado kupata mukanda ya kanuni/ njo tunatembea: tunakwenda: tunauzisha: katikati ya ville: kule: ku mpembeni/ F: mu: inafaa: we unapashwa kuwa na carte: T: carte? F: d'identité? T: non carte ya nani: carte de: carte des artistes enfin/ F: unapashwa kuwa nayo? T: ah yapashwa kuwa nayo: kwa baartistes bote: hata yee nani: ana nayee/ shee bado kupata sasa/ kwa hii mwaka/ sababu ku mwaka ku mwaka/ F: bana: banaleta wapi? T: banaleta ku: affaires culturelles/ F: affaires culturelles? T: aah/ F: na banaleta na kila muntu anafika sawa miye niko artiste? T: hapana: kama unapata: kama unapele: ah oui: beko naleta vile/ kama unapeleka makuta: F: makuta gani? T: deux zaires: na trois zaires: cinq: cinq zaire/ sijue: F: cinq zaire? T: sijue condition kama namna gani beko nafwata/ F: ah ah/ T: aah/ F: sasa: bapoliciers mara ingine bataweza kukubamba: T: katikati ya ville eh? F: eh/ T: ni katikati ya ville banakataza/ paka sawa kama unauza ile: karibu sawa finances/ eeh/ kama unauza: carte yako ku mwaka: kisha mwaka tena utauza ingine/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ F: kumbe muko ba: bamingi? T: ku? F: ya artistes/ T: artistes: bantu beko mingi sana/ baartistes/ mais inafwata kazi na mikono kutumika/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ |
5. F:....about
work. We were talking about work. I forgot, what was the last point we made? T: The last point, let me think about it. You asked, are you doing your work alone, or are you doing some other work? F: Ah, alright, that's it. T: I said that I do my work all by myself. F: Alone. T: There is no other work, mm. F: No other work. But you have some other people to help you with you work? T: Just this young man here, he helps a little. We started with him ... F: ...?... T: I think, it has been a week now. F: One week? T: Yes. F: And how does he help you? T: He helps me with cutting the lumber. F: Mm. T: And with nailing the canvas for me F: Doing what? T: Nailing. F: Nailing. T: The canvas, onto the stretcher. F: Mm. T: After that, I paint. He puts on the latex ground, I make a sketch, and then I begin to paint. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Mm. And to sell, you walk around every day and have to get here to the center of town? T: To sell -- there are the troubles with the authorities[3], with the papers. Because we don't have a legal permit yet. So we go and sell in the middle of town, but on the sly. F: Do you need a card? T: A card? F: An identity (card). T: No – what is it called? -- an artist's card. F: You must have it with you? T: You must have it with you, all the artists must have one, even he though he does not have one either. For this year, we haven't got one. Because you have to renew it each year. F: Where are they issued? T: At the department of Cultural Affairs. F: Cultural Affairs? T: That's it. F: And are they issued to every person who comes and says I am an artist? T: No, they issue them only when you bring money. F: How much? T: Two, three, five Zaire, I don't know. F: Five Zaire? T: I don't know exactly the current rate. F: Well, well. T: Yes. F: So the police may stop you occasionally? T: In the center of town? F: Yes. T: In the center of town it is forbidden to sell unless you have a permit like those that are issued next to the Department of Finance. Each year you have to buy a new card. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: So, there are many of you? T: Doing what? F: Artists. T: There are lots of artists. They are artists, but it is like manual work. F: Mm. T: Yes. |
| 6. F: sasa hii kazi ya artiste inaachana namna gani ya kazi ingine? T: ku kazi: ku ka: kuachana na kazi ya namna gani? kazi iko mingi/ sawa kazi ya société ou bien? F: mm/ T: ah sababu ile: inaachana na ile sababu tuko natumika: na kisha kutumika banunua bintu/ tuko naona muzuri/ inaachana vile/ sababu uko napata makuta yako: kwa wakati unapenda/ nguvu yako ya wee mwenyewe/ kama hauna nguvu: ah ah/ F: njo yote? T: aah/ nazania ku: sema kuachana ya kazi tuseme? oui inaachana mu namna mingi/ na ina: inaachana ku: kupata franga sawa vile: sawa muntu yote anatumikaka juu ya franga ya kupata/ eeh/ F: mm/ T: na inaachana: aiachane ku kintu ingine: iko pamoja sababu kazi ni kazi moja/ F: sawa kazi ya sermali: kazi ya nani: ya: T: menuisier/ F: menuisier ya: inafanana: T: hapana ile sasa ni akili ya muntu/ iko sawa don ya Mungu mwenyewe/ F: mm/ T: kama unapenda: utaweza kuya artiste: aiachane kazi: kazi ni moja/ alafu kutumika: tunafia na kutumika/ na ku: mufano sawa kupata na kuzobelea ile kazi minaisha kuzobelea/ F: ii kazi: sawa vile wee unaona: zamani: balikuwa baartistes bamingi sawa sasa? T: hapana/ zamani ilikuwa kiloko sana/ na tulianza kufanya: kama unaona ile: muntu eko nafanya: utaweza kusagaa unauliza namna gani eko nafanya/ mais sasa: tunakuya mingi kabisa/ na batoto kidogo: F: mm/ T: ...?... na bo wanafanya tu/ F: beko banafanya mingi? T: aah/ |
6. F: Now, how
does the work of an artist differ from other kinds of work? T: How does the work of an artist differ from other kinds of work? There are many kinds of work. You mean compared to working for a company, or? F: Mm. T: Ah, it is different from that kind of work because we work and when our work is finished it is bought. That's how we like it and that is how it differs. You make your own money whenever you feel like it. It depends on your own strength. If you don't have the strength -- ah. F: And that is all there is to it? T: Yes, I believe. But you were asking how it differs from ordinary work. Yes, it is different in many ways. The difference lies in how you make money. Everyone works for money. F: Mm. T: So it is different but in others respects it isn't. It's the same because work is work. F: Let's take the work of a carpenter, or ... Is it like the work of a carpenter? T: [in French] Carpenter. F: A carpenter can be compared too... T: No, the artist's work is a matter of a person's intelligence. It is like a gift from God himself. F: Mm. T: If you like it you can become an artist. The work is not different, work is one. But when we work, we die for our work. Just think of all time I needed until I got used to this work. F: This sort of work -- how do you see it, were there many artists in the old times like there are now? T: No, in the old days, there used to be very few. And when we started it went like this: You would see someone working as an artist and you would be intrigued and ask him how he does it. But nowadays, we are very many. Even small children. F: Mm. T: They, too, ...?... do it. F: Are there many of them? T: Yes. |
| 7. F: pa ku: kuangaria matableaux: sawa vile: T: bon/ F: minaweza ku: kusema: kujua: kwa kama: hii tableau ni yako: hii tableau ni ingine: na: na ingine: mais: kile kintu kinafanya artiste: mm? T: mm/ F: ni nini? T: kwa kuonyesha artiste? ni style tu/ style: mu: muntu yote iko na style yake/ F: style? T: ah style/ c'est à dire: mufansio ya muntu/ aah: ni yake/ kama unaona: ile mufano niko nafwatayo: ii tableau ya muntu fulani/ na kama muntu anafatirisha: utajua kama ni fatirisha ya muntu fulani/ ni vile/ F: sawa ku tableau ile kule? T: aah/ bon/ F: aah: [take up a painting] T: sawa ile? F: sawa ii/ T: ah/ F: (aside) Ilona would you please close the door, we are.... I: sorry ...?... F: aah/ sawa kule: tableau kule: T: ah/ F: pa kuuu: kuona: ni style yako/ T: bon/ F: nitaona namna gani? T: style yangu? F: mm/ T: kwa muntu tunaisha kuzobelea na nayee: kama artiste mwenzangu sawa yee ya Nkulu: ataaona tu/ kama ni couleur yangu: mufano niko nachanga: atafahamu kama: ni: artiste fulani/ na dessin yangu nafanya/ F: sasa hauwezi kunielezea? sawa ku: T: kukuelezea ile maana hivi? F: eh/ T: ile maana: F: ile style: ii style: maana yako/ T: ile dessin: maana yake? F: ah/ T: tableau eh? F: ah/ T: ile tableau iko hivi/ F: non non non non/ non non/ tutaf: ii tutafanya: T: eh/ F: mwisho: mais: kwanza: ulisema ni style yangu/ T: bon/ kufanana/. F: mais style yako: inaonekana wapi? T: style yangu inaonekana ku kuchanga kwangu kwa couleurs/ buchangio ya couleurs/ sawa ile tableau: F: ku couleurs? T: pale: unaona kama: style yake: iko ingine/ F: aah/ T: bon: kama ukaone fasi ingine sawa: kama minaisha kutembea naonana naye: nitasema ii tableau ao yee hapana kuandika jina nitaweza kuwaza ni ya mutu fulani/ bon/ kama kuko artiste ali: alifatirisha ile: F: mm/ T: bon: pale tutajua asema ooh tiens: kumbe ule alifatirisha: muntu fulani fasi kule/ F: na kama uko: kama uko na style: una: unapashwa kuwa: kuchanga? ku: kuchanger? ku? T: nitaweza kuchanger/ F: utaweza kuchanger? T: iko sawa mimbo eh: bale ba: ba quoi: ba: bamusiciens/ F: mm/ T: bamusiciens: unajua kama: kama eko naimba: bakiweka disque: utashikia asema: ii disque iko ya musicien fulani/ na kisha kusoma utasema oui ni musicien fulani/ akifatirisha mara moja utashikia oh: anafatirisha muntu fulani/ F: mm/ T: na vilevile na shee baartistes/ F: mm/ T: bapeintres pardon ni vile/ shee bote tuko baartistes/ |
7. F: When
looking at a picture, as we do now. T: Yes. F: Can I recognize that this painting is yours, and that one somebody else's? But the thing that marks an artist, mm?. T: Mm. F: What is it? T: That which reveals an artist? It's the style, quite simply. Style, everyone has his style. F: Style? T: Yes, style. That is to say, the manner in which a person works is his own. When you see the way I draw you know that this painting is by a certain person. Whenever someone draws you will know that the drawing was done by a certain person, that's how it is. F: So let's take that picture there. T: Ah, alright. F: Ah. [tale up a painting] T: One like that? F: Like this one. T: Ah. F: (aside) Ilona would you please close the door, we are.... I: sorry ...?... F: Well, like over there, the painting over there. T: Yes. F: To see that it is your style. T: Alright. F: How will I recognize it? T: My style? F: Mm. T: Someone, a fellow artist, who is used to my work, for instance this Nkulu, he'll see it. It may be from my way of mixing colors. He will recognize the artist (who made this painting). Also from the way I draw. F: Now, can’t you explain this to me (in detail? For instance... T: Explain to you the manner? F: Yes. T: This manner. F: This style – this style, what makes it yours. T: The drawing, how it is done? F: Yes. T: The painting, right? F: Yes. T: This painting is like this. F: No, no, no, no. no. No, no. We are going to do this...[4] T: Yes. F: ...at the end. But first, you said, this is my style. T: Alrigh, it’s about comparing. F: Where does your style show up? T: My style shows up in the way I mix colors. It’s the mixture of colors. F: In the colors? T: That’s were you can see that (a painter’s) style is distinctive.. F: I see. T: Alright, if you saw (a painting) somewhere -- for instance, when I get around and see one, I know who did it even if (the artist) did not sign his name. F: Mm. T: We’ll know, well look at that, so-and-so painted this in such-and-such a place. F: So you have your style, do you need to change it (sometimes)? T: I can change it. F: You can change it? T: It is like with the songs, with musicians. F: Mm. T: You know how it is with the musicians. When one of them sings, when it is recorded, you’ll listen and know this record is by a certain musician. Then you may read (the cover) and you'll say, it's this musician. And so, from just one drawing, you will be able to tell who did it. F: Mm. T: That's how it is with us artists. F: Mm. T: Sorry, I should say painters. Because we all are artists. |
| 8. F: sasa unaenda: una: una: unaona maendeleo: ya
avenir/ kwa baartistes ya hapa: uta: utaona namna gani? T: ya baartistes Zairois? F: mm/ T: oui: minaona mwendo iko muzuri/ mais sinon: l'état anatunégliger/ état yetu anatunégliger sana/ njo ile nazania/ mwendo iko muzuri sana/...?... F: habakusaidie ao? T: hatusaidie hapana/ banatusula sana sana na zaidi/ F: eyo/ na muko na asses: association ya artistes? na nkundi? T: hakuna association/ hakuna association/ F: sababu nini/ T: hatuna association hapana/ F: sababu gani? T: ni sababu masikilizano: shee benyewe pa nkundi yetu hakuna hapana/ iko sawa: vile nalikuelezea: F: maana yake? T: eh? F: maana yake ya: T: maneno ya s: ah: masikilizano? F: eh/ T: sababu hatu: patane na shee: tunasikilizana tufanye ni hivi: juu tufanye: association/ F: mais sasa: masikilizano hakuna? T: masikilizano: kwiko masikilizano kwa kufika ku mwenzako munasumbulia/ F: oui/ T: na kisha unarudia/ F: bon/ mais: T: mais: hakuna masikilizano ka panga: kanuni tuseme/ mu Kiswahili inyewe/ F: mm/ T: kusema di: angalia tuko nafanya kazi fulani: tutumike mu nyumba moya: na kisha yake itaweza kutoka galerie: tutaendelea inakuwa munene: hakuna [claps] pale/ F: sababu ya nini? bana: T: minazania ni: tamaa ya franga: kwa kusema tunaweka pamoja: eeh: yeye ata: eh? kama atakuwa mukubwa atabeba franga yote: ao kama namna gani: sijue/ F: kumbe wee hauf: haufahamu: haujue hata moya: groupe moya ya: ya baartistes hapa mu Lubumbashi? T: ku: ku: nani? ku Shaba? F: mwenye kutumika vile: T: hapana/ F: vile ule... T: hapana: mi bado kuona baartistes banaikala nkundi hii kipande/ F: hapana? T: aah/ sawa kipande hata ya Kipushi: apana/ wala Kamina: apana/ paka mi: tuliweza kupima na baba moja: ku Kamina/ F: mm/ T: alafu: Mungu alikatala: yee alikufwa/ F: alikufa? T: eeh/ Nyembo/ Albert/ F: mm/ T: ni jina yake ya zamani alibeba/ F: Nyembo? T: Nyembo Albert/ jina ya zamani Albert: alikufwa kwa lakini/ |
8. F: Now, how
do you see development among the artists here? T: Among Zairean artists? F: Mm. T: Yes, I see that it will go well except that the State neglects us. Our State really neglects us. That's what I think but the prospects are very good. F: You get no support, or? T: They don't help us, they are just after us all the time. F: I see. Do you have an association of artists, a group? T: There is no association. There is no association. F: Why is that? T: It's because there is no mutual understanding among us, as I told you before. F: But what is the reason? T: Eh? F: The reason for this. T: Because (of what I said about) mutual understanding? F: Yes. T: It is because we don’t get together to agree that we should set up an association. F: So, right now, there is no mutual understanding? T: There is some to the point where you can go to a fellow artist and talk with him. F: Yes. T: But then you go home. F: Fine, but... T: But there is no agreement on order, lets say on rules, in proper Swahili.[5] F: Mm. T: To say, look, this is the work we do, let's work together in one house, which then could turn into a gallery and that is how we will make progress, it will be - - this sort of thing does not [claps] exist. F: Why is that? Do they.... T: I think it is greed for money. Let's say, if we were to put our money together there would always be one who has the power and he will take it all, right? Or whatever, I don’t know/ F: So you don't know a single group of artists here in Lubumbashi? T: Where? In Shaba? F: That worked (by pooling the money). T: No. F: Like that... T: No. So far, I haven’t seen artists in this region who were organized in a group. F: No? T: No, not in Kipushi or in Kamina, no. I –we tried it once with someone in Kamina. F: Mm. T: But God refused, he died. F: He died? T: Yes, it was Nyembo Albert. F: Mm. T: That was his Christian name then. F: Nyembo? T: Nyembo Albert, that used to be his Christian name, but he died. |
| 9. F: [pauses] mm/ sawa ile matableaux unaona hii/
hapa/ [pointing to paintings displayed in living room] T: mm/ F: uliisha kuona: tena? T: niliisha kuona mara ingine tena/ F: unamufahamu? T: apana/ siwezi namufahamu hapana/ F: Kanyimba/ Kanyemba/ T: Kanyemba? apana/ F: hapana? T: aah/ F: na Kabinda? T: Kabinda/ apana/ nalisoma mara ingine kule Kabinda: mais sibafahamu apana/ F: ...?... na kule hii: kule kule: chini mpembeni? T: ile chini? apana/ F: ...?... T: ah jina nani? jina yake nani? F: Mwenze/ T: Mwenze: Mwenze naisha ku: nafahamu jina yake/ nayee mwenyewe nafahamu tena/ F: ulimufahamu s: namna gani? ulimuona? T: nalikuwa tena: F: na mecho? T: nalikuwa nazania mutoto wakati ile/ F: aah/ T: nalisikia tu/ na mi nazania ni mu kile kipande ya soixante: soixante et un: eeh/ mi bado tu kuanza: nasikia tu jina yake: na sasa yee/ F: na hii jina ya hii ingine wee bado kusikia? Pilipili/ T: Pilipili: Pilipili: non/ mi bado kusikia/ F: mm/ T: naisha kusikia nazania ni kidogo/ najua eh: ts: nani: Mwenze: na: ah ts: ingine inanikimbia sana nashinda/ F: mm/ bon: muzuri/ T: mm/ |
9. F: [pauses]
Mm. About those painting you see here. [pointing to paintings
displayed in living room] T: Mm. F: Have you seen them before? T: I saw them now and then. F: Do you know (the painter)? T: No, I wouldn’t know him. F: Kanyimba (or rather) Kanyemba. T: Kanyemba? No. F: No? T: No. F: And Kabinda? T: Kabinda, no. Perhaps I read (the name) Kabinda there but I don’t know him. F: And that one over there, on the side below? T: That one below? No. F: ...?... T: Well, who is it, what is his name? F: Mwenze. T: Mwenze. Mwenze, I am familiar with his name. And himself, I know him. F: How did you get to know him? Did you see him? T: I was still... F: With you own eyes? T: I think it was when I was still a child. F: I see. T: I just heard (about him). I think it was around sixty, sixty-one. And now he.... F: And the name of those others, you haven’t heard yet? (For instance) Pilipili. T: Pilipili, Pilipili. No, I haven’t heard (the name) so far. F: Mm. T: I think I heard a little (about them). Mwenze and, who else? (His name) escapes me, I really can’t come up with it. F: Alright, find. T: Mm. |
| 10. F: eh: sasa tutaweza ku: kuelezea/ utaweza kutuelezea juu ya
maana yake ya kila: T: kila tableau eh? F: kila tableau/ nitakamata tableau kwanza acha/ aah/ bon: tuanze na: T: mm/ F: (aside) could you get the other paintings: his other paintings for explanation? I: yea/ F: could you get his paintings for explanation? I: yea, I will bring them in/ lets go through this one: I want to buy ...?... F: yea sure but: but: I'm I'm I: and then I will bring them out/ F: I'm recording now explanations/ so I would: I: yea/ F: bon/ [recording interrupted] ...huyu ni: T: sirène/ F: sirène/ T: mamba muntu tunaita shee vile/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ c'est que mamba muntu: ni: adisi ya bakubwa: shee tulikuwa kusikia/ na vilevile tunasema kwetu inatoka dawa/ muntu anaweza: muntu muzima: ataweza kuikala: anakwenda ku maji/ anafika ku maji: ataweza kuchanger mwili yake/ analeta yee/ bon: kama munachukiana muko chuki ndani: ataweza (claps) anafanya ma: quoi: magie yake: ni majivu/ F: mm/ T: anakukamata: anakupoteza/ na shee sasa pale tunaona bengine banafanya hii: tunafanya ça: tunifatirisha/ ni akili ya batu mingi/ na shee tunafanya mu akili yetu/ F: mm/ T: njo ile mamba muntu/ |
10. F: Well,
no we can get to explanations. You could explain to us the meaning of each... T: ...each painting, right? F: Each painting. I’ll pick a painting first. Wait. Alright, fine, let’s start with... T: Mm. F: [aside to I. S.] Could you get the other paintings, his other paintings for explanation? I. S.: Yes. F: Could you get his paintings for explanation? I. S.: Yes, I will bring them in. Lets go through this one: I want to buy ...?... F: Yes, sure but: but: I'm, I'm I. S.: And then I will bring them out. F: I'm recording now explanations, so I would... I. S.: Yes. F: Fine [recording interrupted]...this one is... T: A sirène (mermaid). F: Sirène. T: Mamba Muntu, that’s how we call her. F: Mm. T: Yes. The thing is, Mamba Muntu is a story we used to hear from the old people. Also, back home we say it has to do with magic charms. An ordinary person goes near water. When he gets there he may change his body so that he becomes like (Mamba Muntu). Alright, if there is mutual hatred someone could resort to magic, it’s a matter of self-importance.[6] F: Mm. T: (Such a person) will grab you and do away with you. So, when we observe some doing this we paint it. It’s what many people imagine and we do it in our imagination. F: Mm. T: That is what Mamba Muntu is about. |
| 11. F: mais: eh: mamba muntu ni moya ao ni: bamingi
ao? T: non: mamba muntu: atujue na shee bote sasa pale: wala artistes wote ataweza kusema kweli ajue hapana/ mamba muntu ni mawazo: na akili ya bale ba: bakubwa eh? ku mambo ya mu magie yabo/ F: ahah/ T: voilà/ F: ...?... wee muli: mulipata hii mufano yake? T: mufano yake: tunapata ku matableaux ingine: par example ma: galeries: mamagazins: eh? muko baartistes bengine sawa vile kuchangiliki batoto tuliona balifanya mamba muntu/ na shee tunafanya sasa/ F: ile wakati ulianza ku: tumika kazi yako: ulikuta te: ulikuta tena mamba muntu? T: nilikuta mamba muntu zamani sana/ F: ya mingi? T: mingi sana/ F: ku manyumba? T: eeh: zaidi/ F: eyo/ T: eeh/ F: sasa: bantu banasema nini: anaikala wapi? mu mutoni ao? T: bengine banasema anaikala mu: Bukama: pale nalif: nalikuwa na ma: nani: na ts: eh: Luena eh? F: aah/ T: banasema eko pa Bukama hapa: anakamataka batu/ F: mm/ T: bon: bengine banasema eko anaikala ku Lubilanji: kipande ya Kasai/ bengine banasema kila mutoni ya Zaire: Tanganyika kule ku Kalemie: F: mm/ T: banasema mamba muntu anatokaka/ unakwenda ku Ilebo: ku po: ku nani: ku fleuve Zaire: utashikia asema: kama ni fleuve Zaire: nazania: utashikia asema oui: anatokaka tena/ fasi yote tu wanasema kama anatokaka/ F: ni kintu moja ina: inaanza mu Zaire ao: ao: nani: bengine bana: baliingisha hii mambo mu Zaire ao sijue? T: nazania ni mawazo ingine iliingia mu Zaire/ kwa sababu na shee tulikuta/ she tunatumika ku mawazo ya bengine tena/ F: mm/ T: sasa kwa adisi: tunashikia bakubwa banasema: bale tulikuta/ banasema kama hii kintu: iko natoka sawa m: dawa: F: mm/ T: na mu magie: iko natoka/ |
11. F: But – is there one Mamba Muntu or are there many? T: No, none of us actually knows about Mamba Muntu, nor is there one among the many artists who could truly claim such knowledge. Mamba Muntu is thoughts, and imagination among those elders, you understand? It belongs to their magic practices. F: I see. T: There you are. F: ...?... Where did you get her likeness from? T: Her likeness we get from other pictures, in galleries or shops, right? When we were still children we observed other artists painting Mamba Muntu. So we do it now. F: At the time when you began with your work did you already find (pictures of) Mamba Muntu? T: I came upon Mamba Muntu a long time ago. F: (Were there) many (pictures of her)? T: Lots of them. F: In (peoples’) houses? T: Yes, mostly. F: I see. T: Yes. F: Now, what are people saying, where does she live? In a river, or? T: Some say she lives in Bukama. There I met with – wait, it was in Luena, right? F: Yes. T: They said, she lives in Bukama, and she snatches people. F: Mm. T: Alright, others said she lives in the Lubilashi (river) in the Kasai region, still others said, in every river in Zaire and in (Lake) Tanganyika there at Kalemie. F: Mm. T: There is talk that Mamba Muntu appears all the time. You go to Ilebo, I believe you’ll hear that she lives in the river Zaire. Yes, and that she keeps appearing. Everywhere people say that she keeps appearing. F: Is this something that originated in Zaire or did others introduce this in Zaire? Or – I don’t know. T: I think it is a foreign idea that entered Zaire. Because we found it and we work with ideas that come from others. F: Mm. T: As to the stories (about Mamba Muntu), we heard the elders we met tell them. They said that this is something that came up like a magic charm. F: Mm. T: In magic (practices), that’s where it came up. |
| 12. F: anaikala paka peke yake? ana na: hana na bwana
yake? T: ni fasi moya ya nguvu sana: mi bado kushikia: naliisha kuuliza mais: sishikie ata/ anaikalaka na bwana: wala apana/ mais kwa masiku ...?... mwenzetu artiste vilevile alifanya bwana ku mpembeni: nayee vilevile bana...?... F: uliisha kuona vile? T: nalifika kwa: nani? Kapenda/ F: Kapenda? T: aah/ alifanya vile/ F: yee alifanya vile/ T: eeh/ nali: na mi nalimuuliza ...?... F: paka yee moya? T: yee moya/ na mi nalimuuliza asema oui: voilà ni akili di: niko tafuta akili/ eeh/ F: aah/ très bien/ na: [pauses] kisha: nyoka/ maana yake ni nini? T: ah: nyoka banasema ni ule iko namuchunga/ F: kuchunga? T: eko namuprotéger: c'est à dire eko naye kila mara tu/ protection/ F: protection? T: ah njo kusema eko namuchunga tu: F: si njo kintu kya hatari? T: eeh/ ni kitu yake: njo buzhima yake/ F: mm/ T: ataweza kumutuma: anaofanya mambo ile anapenda: kiisha anarudia/ F: na sasa hii: [points out on painting] hii bintu hii? T: bon/ ile saa: banasema kama iko: or: saa ya or/ bon ...?... asema saa ya or/ F: mm/ T: ah njo kusema ni saa moya ya magie/ kama kuko mambo: ataweza kuangaria: saa inamuelezea: yee atafanya mambo ile ana: anawaza/ F: mm/ T: anakwenda kule rendez-vous: kama kuko mambo ao ndani ya maji ao fasi gani ile aliacha kitu yake: sawa ya: bracelet: ou bien kama: ile mashikio iko naanguka: F: mm/ T: atafwata kama anaangaria pa saa/ ah/ ile ni kichanuno yake: kama anafika mpembeni ya maji: akiisha kunawa ataweza kuchanuna: na likalashi iko nabamba anajiangalia ndani/ F: hii kalashi? T: eeh/ F: mirroir? T: mirroir eh/ F: mm/ |
12. F: Does
(Mamba Muntu) live alone? Doesn’t she have a husband? T: That is a very difficult point. So far, I never heard about that though I did ask. She either lives with a husband or not. But one day one of our fellow artists painted her with a husband on her side. F: You saw that? T: (When) I visited – what’s he called – Kapenda. F: Kapenda? T: Yes. I did a painting like that. F: He did a painting like that. T: Yes. And I asked him... F: Is he the only one? T: Only he. And when I asked him he said, yes, that is what I look for in imagination. F: I see, fine. And [pauses] then there is the snake. What does it stand for? T: Well, about the snake they say it is the one who watches over her. F: Watching? T: It protects her. In other words, it is always with her (for) protection. F: Protection? T: Yes, it means it watches over her. F: Is (a snake) not something dangerous? T: Well, its hers, it’s there for her well-being. F: Mm. T: (Mamba Muntu) may send (the snake) away to do what ever she likes done, after which it comes back. F: And what about this, [points out on painting] these things? T: Alright. There is this watch. They say it is a golden watch. F: Mm. T: Well, in other words, it is a magic watch. If there is something (she wants to do) she can look (at the watch) and the watch will explain it to her. (Then) she’ll carry out her plan. F: Mm. T: She goes to a meeting-place and if there is something to be done, either in the water or wherever, she leaves a thing of hers, like a bracelet, or it may happen that her earrings fall off. F: Mm. T: She’ll trace them back by looking at the watch, yes, and this is her comb. When she comes to the shore after bathing she can comb (herself). And she picks up the kalashi and looks at herself in it. F: This kalashi? T: Yes. F: [in French] A mirror? T: A mirror, yes. F: Mm. |
| 13. alafu: mu matableaux yote tunaona: kama inaonekana: anaonekana
tu: kila mara anaonekana sawa mwanamuke muzungu/ T: bon/ vilevile anaonekana mwanamuke muzungu: ni mawazo sawa vile nalikuelezea: ni mawazo ya mutu/ F: minakuelezea/ T: quoi? ah/ F: sababu ya nini? T: mais: ni mawazo ya mutu: na minajibu/ ni mawazo ya mutu anafanya: anatosha ile akili ya muzungu/ sijue kama ni akili iliweza kutoka mpembeni: inafika kwetu/ mais kwa kuona mi naliona artiste moja ...?... nakuambia rafiki yangu: Nyembo ule alikufwa: pa Kamina: alifanya yee: mamba muntu: muntu mweusi/ F: muntu mweusi? T: aah/ muzuri sana tena/ F: kweli? T: eeh/ F: mi bado kuona/ T: yeye alifanya: muzuri sana tena vilevile anapenta tena/ F: na bantu baliuza? T: na batu baliuza/ iko: par example: iko kwa Katunya: paka mu Kamina mule ku bar moya: eko boutique moja ya buvette eh? sorte ya buvette/ F: kama utupatia: nitauza/ T: eeh/ kama minaf: tumika yee? nitaweza kutumika mu akili ile alifanya yee/ F: aah/ T: kwa akili ya ule baba alikufa/ F: mais hapa mi bado kuona/ T: uh: mais: F: sijaona hapa/ mu: mu: eeh: manyumba ya bantu? mi bado/ T: umu apana/ mais ku Kamina: naliona: anapenta muzuri sana/ F: sasa m: mu mawazo yako ali: maana yake alikuwa nini? T: mawazo yake alifanya paka vile na mwili: alikata: kisha aliweka tena mukila na nyoka/ F: oui mais: sababu ya: sa: sababu ya nini? bote bengine banafanyaka tu: bazungu: nayee alifanya: T: sasa sawa vile muntu anaisha kupotea: F: mm/ T: alipotea na ile mawazo: atujue kile aliwaza/ anaisha kufwa/ mm/ F: nayee hakusemaka kintu? T: yeye ah: sawa vile aliweza kusema na miye: alianzia kusema tu mambo ya kazi: tumika: fanya nguvu: kwa sababu alikuwa ancien combattant jusqu'à ...?... na alikuwa kupata akili ...?... F: alikuwa muzee? T: alikuwa muntu muzee kabisa je crois: F: muzee/ T: peut-être na: s: septante ou bien ...?... F: eyo: T: ou bien soixante/ soixante cinq/ F: na yee alianza kazi yake ya peintre sawa mu mwaka gani? T: oh: mais: sababu cahier yangu nalikuwa nayee nileweza kuandika mambo yote: yee alianza kazi yake ya peintre: paka Kisangani tu/ mais sijue mwa: mwaka alianza/ F: nani ataweza kuandika? iko na nd: nduku: nduku yake: T: nduku: ali: eko na mutoto moja tu/ F: mm/ T: mutoto moja bule/ eeh/ mwanaume: anaisha kuwa muntu mukubwa kabisa/ eeh/ ni yee ataweza kusema mambo yake/ F: mm/ T: na bibi yake tena alibakia paka Kamina vilevile/ F: Kamina? T: mm/ F: mm/ ah oui/ Nyem: T: Nyembo Albert/ F: Nyembo Albert/ c'est ça/ T: na tableau yake nalikuta tena mu mara ingine: matableaux yake ingine/ F: hapa? T: eeh/ mu camp/ Vangu/ F: utubebe/ T: eh? F: utaweza kutubeba? T: ah nitaweza: sababu ule ali: lomba tena tableau ile ya Lumumba ya kufunga: F: mm/ T: alisema le vingt ukuye: iko kwake ku nyumba/ mm/ F: ya Nyembo? T: ya Nyembo/ F: ya: ni nini? paysage ao? T: non/ mamba mutu/ F: mamba muntu? T: eeh/ F: utubebe/ T: eh? F: utubebe/ T: eh: ata kama/ F: tutalipa muzuri/ hii tutalipa muzuri/ T: kama tu: kama tunakwenda eh? F: ah/ T: tutaweza kumukutanisha: ataweza kusumbulia muzuri/ F: ku Vangu? T: ah ku Vangu/ F: non wee: wee utas: wee utasumbulia/ T: bon/ nitasumbulia naye: mi nitabeba: nitamurudisha ingine: nitamu: nitamu: F: c'est ça/ utaweza kumu: T: kumurudishia eh/ mm/ F: mm/ utaweza kusema: kama wee uko besoin naye: sawa modèle ao: T: mm/ F: kintu gani/ T: o lala/ kama nikuwa na foto yake: ilikuwa muzuri: foto yake yote ilibakiaka/ F: non uta: ufanye nguvu ya kuteleta: T: ya kuleta leta ile tableau tu ça ah/ F: bon/ kiisha: T: bon/ F: tutaendelea na: T: ...?... F: uko na kintu ingine ya kuongeza: T: ya mamba mu: ya kusema? apana kule/ F: hapana/ I. S.: What? F: Whether there is something else/ to be said/ I. S: eh: how: how do they know: do they know women? they imitate? F: sawa vile madame ali: aliomba: kama una: penta hii/ nsula ya: madame/ foto ya: mmwanamuke: T: mamba muntu eh/ F: una: unafwata modèle gani? ma: T: non/ inatoka mu akili yangu tu/ F: paka wako? T: eeh/ ?kintu minafanya tu kwa kusema ni: picha: nipime tu/ F: mm/ T: inatoka mu akili yangu/ |
13. But on the
all the paintings we see that (Mamba Muntu) looks like a European woman. T: Alright. If she looks like a European woman this is an idea, as I explained to you, it is someone’s idea. F: I’m asking you.[7] T: What? Well. F: Why is it? T: But I already answered, it is someone’s idea. It an idea someone paints, imagining (Mamba Muntu) as a European. I don’t know, it is possible that it is an imagination that originated elsewhere and that came to our country. However, I did see that one artist – I told you about my friend Nyembo who died in Kamina – who painted Mamba Muntu as a black person. F: A black person. T: Yes. And very beautiful. F: Really? T: Yes. F: I never saw that. T: He did it, he painted it quite beautifully. F: And people bought it? T: And people bought it. For example there is one at Katunya, there in Kamina, in a bar, it’s a small drinking place, you understand? F: If you can get it for us I’ll buy it. T: Yes. What if I paint (one like) it. I could work it following what he imagined whe he did (the painting). F: Well. T: As the baba who dies imagined it. F: But I never saw (a painting like that). T: Still. F: Never around here. In peoples’ houses? I haven’t seen one yet. T: Not around here but I saw it in Kamina, he did a beautiful painting. F: Now, when you think about it, what was its meaning? T: His idea was to do it such that he diveded the body and then he added the tail of a snake. F: Yes, but why? All the other (painters) always depict Europeans, whereas he painted.... T: Since has disappeared... F: Mm. T: He disappeared with this idea. We don’t know what he thought, he is dead. Mm. F: And he did not tell you anything? T: He – well, when he spoke to me he would talk about matters of work to do, that I should make an effort. Because he was a war veteran ...?... and he had imagination. F: Was he old. T: He was quite old, I believe. F: Old. T: Maybe seventy or ...?... F: I see. T: Or sixty, sixty-five. F: What was the year when he began working as a painter? T: Oh, (I can’t tell you now) because it is possible that I wrote all this in my copy book. He began working as a painter in Kisangani but I don’t know the year. F: Who could write? Does he have a relative? T: A relative – he only had one child. F: Mm. T: Just one child, yes, a boy who is now and adult. Yes. He could talk about (his father’s) affairs. F: Mm. T: And his wife is also still around in Kamina. F: Kamina? T: Mm. F: Mm. Ah yes, Nyem.... T: Nyembo Albert. F: Nyembo Albert, that’s it. T: And I came upon his painting (of Mamba Muntu) once, and some other paintings of his. F: Here? T: Yes, at Camp Vangu. F: Bring it to us. T: Eh? F: Could you bring it to us. T: Well, I could, because the person (who has it) also order this painting of Lumumba in prison. F: Mm. T: He told me to come on the 20th, that’s when he is at home. Mm. F: (A painting) by Nyembo? T: By Nyembo. F: Of what, a landscape? T: No, a Mamba Muntu. F: A Mamba Muntu? T: Yes. F: Bring it to us. T: Eh? F: Bring it to us. T: Well, perhaps if... F: We’ll pay well. For that one we’ll pay well. T: If we went together, you understand? F: Yes, T: We could meet the person and could have a good conversation. F: At (Camp) Vangu? T: At Vangu. F: No, you should talk with him T: Alright, I’ll talk with him. I’ll bring (the painting) and give him back another one... F: That’s it, you could... T: ...give him back (another one). Mm. F: Mm. You could tell him that you need as a model or (something like that). T: Mm. F: Whatever. T: (That’s an idea), it would be good if I had a photograph of it. A photograph of it could survive. F: No, make an effort to bring us (the painting). T: To bring the painting itself. F: Alright, then... T: Alright. F: ... we continue with... T: ...?... F: (Unless) you have something to add. T: About Mamba Muntu? Not at this point. F: No. I. S.: What? F: Whether there is something else/ to be said/ I. S: eh: how: how do they know: do they know women? they imitate? F: What Madame aked was whether, when you paint (Mamba Muntu’s) face as that of a European lady, you do this from a photograph of a woman. T: Mamba Muntu, yes. F: What is the model you follow? T: No, it comes from my imagination only. F: Only from your (imagination)? T: Eh? What I paint is just a picture I want to try. F: Mm. T: It comes from my imagination. |
| 14. F: bon/ kisha: tuko na: [pick up painting] kabila
ingine/ T: mm/ F: hii ni ya nini? T: ii tableau: ni mumbunda ya Gécamines/ F: ni mumbunda ya Gécamines? T: ya Gécamines mm/ F: kumbe bantu banaomba hivi? T: batu? F: mm/ T: bantu banalombaka eh/ F: njo mingi? T: inalombaka mingi/ F: mm/ bon/ kumbe maana yake ni nini? T: maana yake? F: mm/ T: ni kusema: eh: mais haina politique: mais ni mambo tunasema sawa hivi mambo ilipita eh? F: aah/ T: ni histoire ya zamani: makati ile ya vita eh? F: mm/ T: eh: makati ya: cession au Katanga/ kama secession au Katanga: pardon: njo kusema: kulikuya baONU: na bagendarmes Katangais: bali: eh: kombanaka/ balikombania pa ile: mumbunda/ c'est que: bawa: bagendarmes balikuwa mule ndani ya: mumbunda mule/ bon/ kiisha pale baliona: maavions ya baONU gambera alikuya: kupika: F: ya? ani: avenue? T: non: F: eh eh eh avion de l'ONU? T: à réaction/ avenue: eh: nani: ts: avion à réaction/ F: gambele? T: gambera/ F: gambera? T: eeh/ F: njo modèle yake/ T: njo ile banaanza kuita: na shee bote tuliita ile: nani: avion vile/ F: gambera/ T: bon/ ilianza kam: kama inakuya: ina: ina: tupa/ hapana bombe: hapana: inatupa: quoi? kama ni magrenades atufahamu/ F: mm/ T: et puis: basoldats banakimbia: sawa vile unaona ungine kule: anabamba chapeau kichwa anatupa bunduki: F: mm/ T: kwa kujiponyesha ku maji ya Lubumbashi: ou bien mu ile poli ingine/ F: mm/ T: bon/ bengine ba nguvu balikuwa asema: tupike ile avion na: na fal: bunduki ya fal/ nipike: kama ataweza kuanguka: ni ule ungine [pointing to another figure on the painting]/ aba ingine: banaanza kupiga masasi: ku baONU banaanza kuwa pembeni/ njo tu explication ya ile tableau/ ni mambo ya: F: na pa ku: pata ii: tableau: uli: ulienda karibu na: na Gécamines? kuona? T: apana/ F: paka mu: T: ni mu akili sawa wee ulinielezea: ... ?... étage: nani: mumbunda ya Gécamines: na mi nalipika tu mu akili: minafanya sawa ...?... F: mm/ T: aah/ F: kumbe kila: na kila tableau unafanyaka: unaenda tu: haua: una: inatoka tu ku akili? T: bon: inatoka ku akili/ I. S: Johannes? F: yea/ I. S: has he ever been to the Gécamines ...?... to see what it is really like? F: mais ulipita ku Gécamines? T: napitaka: njo njo njia yetu ya Kipushi: F: oui oui/ T: pa kupita na: naona: kama minaona hii: F: ni karibu wa: T: karibu? ah naisha kupita na karibu na kuingia ndani vile eh/ F: mm/ T: niliisha kuona/ F: uliisha kuona? T: eeh/ F: ii mukini kule? T: ile ni: z: nani: zone Kenya eh? F: zone Kenya? T: aah/ kama unaikala kule utaona zone Kenya na ile sentier inapita mule ndani: F: mm/ T: kidogo kidogo/ F: mm/ bantu banapenda tena? T: batu: kupenda ku: kununua? F: banapenda kununua? T: ah: banapenda kununua/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ F: sababu ya nini? bana: banaona nini? T: banaone ile: événements ikoako: inabarappeler mambo ile ya: ya zamani ilipita/ F: mm/ T: banatamini kupata ile histoire/ bakia kwabo ku nyumba/ |
14. F:
Alright, so then we have [pick up painting] a different kind. T: Mm. F: This is (a picture) of what? T: This painting is the Gécamines smoke stack. F: The Gécamines smoke stack? T: Of the Gécamines (plant), yes. F: So people ask for (pictures) like that? T: People? F: Mm. T: People keep asking for it, yes. F: Does this mean lots of them? T: It is much in demand. F: Mm. Fine. So, what is its meaning? T: Its meaning? F: Mm. T: Well, it is nothing political, just matters we talk about, like things that happened, you understand? F: Yes. T: It is a story from the past, from times when there was this war, right? F: Mm. T: Yes, the times of the Katanga cession, or rather Katanga secession, sorry. In other words, when there was fighting among the UN troops and the Katanga Gendarmes. They were fighting near the smoke stack. The way it was, the Gendarmes were there, inside, where the smoke stack is. Fine. Then they saw the UN gambela airplaines coming to attack. F: What? Avenue? T: Non. F: Eh, (now I understand), the avions of the UN? T: Jet (fighters). Avenue, wait, avions that were jet-propulsed. F: (The were called) gambele? T: Gambera. F: Gambera? T: Yes. F: That was the type? T: That’s what we called them, that’s what all of us called this plane. F: Cambera.[8] T: Alright. They came and began to throw, not bombs – what was it again? Some kind of grenades we didn’t know. F: Mm. T: And then the soldier ran away, as you see, one of them keep the hat on his head and dropping his gun. F: Mm. T: To save himself in the Lubumbashi river or somewhere in the bush. F: Mm. T: Alright. Others had the strength fire their FAL rifles at those planes, saying, if I fire it may come down. It’s this one [pointing to anothr figure on the painting], and those other began to fire rounds on UN troops who were approaching from the side. That’s the explanation of this painting. It’s things that.... F: And to get this painting right, did you go close to the Gécamines? To have a look? T: No. F: (You painted it) just from... T: Just from imagination. When you explained to me (that you wanted a picture) of the building, or rather, of the Gécamines I composed it in my imagination, that’s how I did it. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: So, this is the case with every painting you do, you just go ahead and it comes from your imagination. I. S: Johannes? F: Yea. I. S: Has he ever been to Gécamines to see what it is really like? F: But you did go by Gécamines? T: I go by all the time, it is on our road to Kipushi. F: Yes, yes. T: When I go by I look and when I see this... F: It is near by... T: Nearby? Well, I passed nearby and I also went inside, yes. F: Mm. T: I have seen it. F: You have seen it? T: Yes. F: (And what about) this settlement there? T: That is Kenya township, right? F: Kenya township? T: Yes. When you stand there you’ll see Kenya township and this footpath that leads there. F: Mm. T: A tiny (path). F: Mm. People still like (this picture)? T: People – you mean, do they like to buy it? F: They like to buy it? T: Yes, they like to buy it. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Why is that? What do they see in it? T: The see those events happening, it reminds them of those things that happened in the past. F: Mm. T: They have a desire for this story, to live with it at home. |
| 15. F: sawa vile hii ingine/ T: bon/ F: tunaona kule/ T: bon bon/ F: [picking up another painting] ili: ili...?... uko nayo? T: sawa ii? F: mm/ T: [noise]seems to dust off the picture with a few strokes) ii ni: wakati mwee munajua eh? tulikuwa ni: makati ya: ya Belges/ colonie belge eh? sawa: kila inchi yote yapashwa ikuwe colonisé/ après: banapata indépendance/ sawa vile kama ni indépendant/ bon/ sawa hapa sasa nazania ni wakati ile tulikuwa mu utumwa: F: mm/ T: banaanzaka: kama uko ku buloko: bon: unafanya nkosa/ kama walikuambia kata kuni: unakatala/ kama balikutuma maji: unakatala/ bo batasema utakwenda ku ra: ku rapport/ F: mm/ T: njo banaanza kuita vile/ banakwenda banapeleka ile mastari yako kule: utafika asubui: banakularika chini/ banakuambia batakupika fimbo kumi na mbili/ bon: bataanza kupika fimbo ile/ banapika: moya: mbili/ F: mm/ T: ni moja tu/ F: eyo/ T: eh/ baki?luisha tena ingine mbili: ikukuwe inne vile: ni inne: njo sema ni mbili: fimbo mbili kule/ F: mm/ T: pa kusema kumi na mbili: njo sema douze multiplié par deux: vingt quatre: bon: banasema sasa lamuka/ na kisha unalamuka: unapika salut: allez: kwenda sasa unakwenda/ kama kesho unakosa tena: batapika tena/ F: mwee uli: uliona tena hivi? T: mimi? kama nasikia: F: ...?... T: non/ ba: bakubwa banasema bababa vilevile/ baba: baba yee aliona vile/ F: mm/ T: aah/ F: sasa? T: bon/ nazania ile:[pointing out] ule ni cli: ah: ule commi: ni commissaire eh? c'est que administrateur: kama walikuta vile nazania/ kama anakuya: anashimama yee: pa ile wakati: asema pika yee: yee brigadier: anapika/ F: sawa hii pipe: ni kintu ya wazungu? T: pipe: ni kitu ya bazungu: tumbako yake fasi anaanza kuvutia/ anaweka tumbako: eko navuta/ F: mm/ T: aah/ F: bon: kisha: T: eh: F: huyu? askari? T: askari: njo mwenyewe brigadier: wa ku: eko nau: napika bantu tuseme/ F: mm/ T: sawa ku bam: ma: materritoires yote: na mavilles ingine: ilia: balibapa majina yabo tuseme/ F: mm/ T: kuko majina/ na asubui: bamama bale balikuya: kwa kusema tulete: chai: na chakula kwa baba: akule/ F: mm/ T: njo banakuta eko ku: ku mfimbo/ banaongojea bakiisha mfimbo: ata: batamupatesha kula yake/ F: mm/ T: na bale: bengine: beko nakata kuni: baliweza kushikia asema: mukate kuni: banakata paka kuni/ F: eyo/ T: aah/ haba banabeba maji: kwa kwenda kubeba maji: tena kurudia nayo/ F: mm/ T: kubeba maji: kurudia nayo/ kwa ku: pelekea kama ni bibi yake na brigadier/ F: na: ulipata modèle yake: ulipata wapi? T: ile akili ni baba yangu alinipatia asema: tumika mbele hii: kama utapata baclients/ F: ah/ T: na pale alileta moya mbili: F: mais: ku: sawa modèle: hii: ya: ya: ya bamama mbili: hii? T: oui/ ni paka yee alisema: fanya hivi mbele pima hivi: na mi nalipima: na ilitoka tableau sawa vile/ F: mm/ T: mm/ F: na sasa: unafwata paka hii modèle/ T: na ile modèle moja/ naona inauziwa kabisa kabisa kipande ya kule kote: na huku kwetu/ eeh/ F: mm/ T: na ni tableaux banapenda sana: ukitosha tu: ukiexposer: apashe tu bauze yote ku banduku/ F: mm/ T: bale banapenda tableaux ile ya: ya histoire/ F: mm/ |
15. F: Like this other one. T: Alright. F: The one we see there. T: Alright, fine. F: [picking up another painting] Was it....?... do you have one? T: Like this one? F: Mm. T: [noise] That is a time – you know about it, don’t you? The time of the Belgians when we were a Belgian colonie, right? It seems that every country had to be colonized. After that they granted independence and (the country) is, as it were, independent. Alright. (What we see) here, I think, is the time when we were under slavery. F: Mm. T: What they began with – if you were in prison it was because you committed an offense. If you were told to cut fire wood and you refused, if the sent you (to get water and you refused, they told you to show up roll call. F: Mm. T: Then your name was called and then they would bring up the case against you. When you showed up in the morning they made you lie down and told you that that they would give you twelve lashes with the cane. Alright they would start beating you with this cane, once, twice. F: Mm. T: That (counted) as one stroke. F: I see. T: Yes. If they gave you to more it would make four strokes. In other words, it was two strokes with the cane. F: Mm. T: That means that twelve strokes was twelve multiplied by two, which makes twenty-four. Alright, then they said, now get up. Then you got up and saluted. Step down, they would say, and you would leave. If you committed another offence the next day they would beat you again. F: Did you still see this? T: Me? (You mean) did I witness it? F: ...?... T: No. Older people, of my father’s generation, talked about it. My father, he saw this happening. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Recently? T: Alright, I think this one [pointing out], that is the commissaire, right? The kind of administrator people would meat, I think. When he arrived he would stand there and give the order, beat him, and the corporal would do the beating. F: What about that pipe, is this something European? T: The pipe is something European. A person would put his tobacco (in the pipe) and start smoking. He put in tobacco and smoked. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Alright, and then. T: Yes. F: What about this one, is he a soldier? T: A soldier – that’s the corporal whose task was to beat people, let’s say. F: Mm. T: In all the territories and in some towns people would give them (nick-) names. F: Mm. T: There were names. And in the morning those women would come and bring tea and food so the man could eat. F: Mm. T: That’s when they found him getting his beating. They waited until the beating was finished to get his food to him. F: Mm. T: And those other ones, they are cutting fire wood. Probably they had an order, cut wood, so they cut wood. F: I see. T: Yes. Those there carry water, they went to get water and come back with it. F: Mm. T: Get water and come back with it, to bring it to the corporal’s wife. F: And where did you get the model for this (painting)? T: This was an idea my father gave me. Just paint this, he said, and you’ll get clients. F: I see. T: And he brought one or two right away. F: But, what was the model for those two women? T: Yes. It’s what he said, paint it like this, try it. So I tried and out came a painting like this. F: Mm. T: Mm. F: So now you just follow that model. T: Just this one model. I noticed that it got sold a lot everywhere as well as here in our country, yes. F: Mm. T: And they are paintings people really like. If you put them an exhibition our brothers are bound to buy all of them. F: Mm. T: Those who like paintings of history. F: Mm. |
| 16. F: bon: tuta: endelea na be: bengine/ T: mm/ F: mais acha: inafaa ku: sema [picking up paintings, laying them out together]: hii tableaux: inne/ inaonyesha nini? T: hii tableaux inne eh? F: tuanze tena: kumbe na hii/ T: tutaanza na hii eh? F: oh: tutaanza namna gani? T: tuanze hivi/ tuanze hivi/ non: oui: tuanze hivi/ sababu ile: iko: ile na bilikuwa ya kwanza ile eh? F: oui/ T: kisha utumwa: nazania: kulikuwa bakubwa balilomba indépendance/ eh? F: mm/ T: kiisha kulomba indépendance: eh: Lumumba: le trente juin pardon/ F: mm/ T: le trentre juin: kulikuya meeting pa: place kama nationale ya: ya Kinshasa mi shijue ni place gani/ F: na ii jina: galerie: T: galerie saint Laurent Marcel/ ile ni jina yangu ya zamani/ nilikuwa laurent marcel/ alors na mi naliwaza akili ... F: aaah [laughs] ji: ilikuwa jina yako? T: ilikuwa jina yangu/ F: eeh/ T: bon: sasa: shiku ile bali: proclamer indépendant: iliisha/ bon/ unaisha(?) bantu wanafurahi: sawa vile unaona/ ni tableau moya: ku histoire ya Zaire/ F: ...?... T: Baudouin alifika ile siku kwa kuleta: eh: indépendance ku baZairois/ F: aah/ T: changaliki baCongolais zamani/ na kisha kuleta indépendance: Lumumba alikuwa premier ministre: Kasavubu alikuya: eh: président wa république/ F: mm/ T: bon/ kisha machutes ya m: ya: ya politique: |
16. F:
Alright, let’s go one with the others. T: Mm. F: But wait, we must talk [picking up paintings, laying them out together], these four paintings, what do they show? T: You mean these four paintings? F: So let’s begin with this one. T: Let’s begin with this one, right? F: Well, how should be start? T: Let’s begin like this. Let’s begin like this. No. Yes, let’s begin like this. Because this one is about what happened first, right? F: Yes. T: Then slavery came an end, I think, when politicians demanded independence, right? F: Mm. T: After demanding independence come Lumumba, sorry, (the painting) of June 30.[9] F: Mm. T: On June 30, there was the meeting in Kinshasa, on the national square or whatever it was called, I don’t know. F: And what about the name, Galerie ... T: Galerie St. Laurent Marcel. That used to be my name. I was Lauent Marcel, so I thought this up in my imagination... F: I see [laughs]. That was your name? T: It was my name. F: Yes. T: Alright, now, on that day they proclaimed independenc, and that was the end of it. Alright, then people were full of joy, as you see. It is one of the paintings (showing) the history of Zaire. F: ...?... T: (King) Baudouin arrived on that day to grant independence to the Zaireans. F: I see. T: Who were (called) Congolese in the past. After independence was granted Lumumba was Prime Minister, Kasavubu was the President of the Republic. F: Mm. T: Allright, then there came the political upheavals. |
| 17. F: mais: u: u: kwanza hii/ [points to painting]
maana yake? T: oh: bon/ ile tena vilevile ni livre d'or/ uku ni pale ku bulaya: banasigner kitabu/ sawa buindépendance yenu: tunaleta sasa: F: ah ilikuwa mu bulaya? T: non ilikuwa mu bulaya/ F: kweli? T: kisha kuleta indé: ku: iko sawa table ronde/ F: mm/ T: kiisha yake: balileta ile indépendance/ yeye nani: Lumumba anarudia mu Zaire/ F: kumbe: ii: ya: ya kitabu: T: ni ya kwanza/ F: ni mbele ya: T: bon/ F: indépendance? T: eeh/ kisha kubeba: nani: indépendance: njo anakuya sasa: anakuwa kusema: meeting/ F: mm/ T: bon: kisha kusema meeting: sawa vile ...?... mambo ya bantu bakubwa politique ilipita shee hatujue: balimu: balikuwa kumufunga/ F: mm/ T: na kisha kumufunga: atujue na sasa wanasema kama ni héros national: ni mukubwa mwenyewe ule iko hapa sasa Mobutu anasema ni héros national/ F: mm/ T: na shee tunapata nguvu wa kutumika sawa ni héros: tuonyeshe ile picha na: adisi yake ibakie/ F: mm/ T: aah/ njo vile/ F: adisi yake ya? T: sta: na histoire yake/ F: ndiyo/ T: aah/ ibakie/ |
17. F: But
first this one [points to painting]. what is it about? T: Well, alright. Then there is (the painting titled) Livre d’Or.[10] That was in Europe, when they signed the book meaning, now we grant you your independence. F: Ah, that was in Europe? T: It was in Europe. F: Really? T: After granting inde(pendence) – (it was in Europe) like the Table Ronde. F: Mm. T: After independence was granted he, Lumumba, returned to Zaire. F: So the (painting of) of the book... T: ...comes first. F: It was before... T: Alright. F: ...independence? T: Yes, after that, after achieving independence, (Lumumba) addressed the meeting. F: Mm. T: Alright, after addressing the meeting, all sorts of things happend among the big politicians, we don’t know, and they locked him up. F: Mm. T: Then they locked (Lumumba) up, we don’t know. Nowadays the say he is a national hero. The boss right now, Mobutu, says he is a national hero. F: Mm. T: With him being a hero we get the strength to work and to show this picture so that his story stays alive. F: Mm. T: Yes, that’s how it is. F: His story? T: And his history F: Yes. T: Yes, it should stay alive. |
| 18. F: [picks up next painting] kumbe hii: ya: ya
tatu: inamuonyesha mu: mule mu avion: mu: mu plaine d'aviation/ T: ya Luano/ eeh/ wakati walimufunga ku Kinshasa: banamuleta na le dix sept: eh: janvier: njo aliweza kupotea tuseme/ F: bale bantu batatu? T: bale bantu tatu ni: ba: agents ya Sûreté/ zamani ilikuwa Sûreté: sasa ni CND/ F: mm/ T: kwa sababu: pa kutuma muntu: ao pa kufanya mambo: yapasha Sûreté nani: détail ajue/ ni vile/ F: na nani: na valise yake? T: na valise yake/ F: ya Sabena/ T: bon/ ni adisi moya mukubwa sana kwa lakini/ F: eeh? T: minasema ni adisi moya mukubwa sana/ F: sana/ ni vile/ |
18. F: [picks
up next painting] So this is number three. It shows (Lumumba) there at the a
the airplane, or rather, the airport.[11] T: Luano (airport), yes. After they had locked him up in Kinshasa they brought him (to Katanga) on January 17. That was when he probably disappeared, let’s say. F: What abou those three people? T: Those three people are agent of the Sûreté. It used to be Sûreté, now its the CND. F: Mm. T: Because, to send a person or to arrange an affair, the Sûreté had to be informed in detail. That’s how it was. F: And, that is his suitcase? T: And his suitcase. F: (Inscribed) Sabena. T: Alright, but it is a very important story. F: Eh? T: I said it is a very important story. F: Very, that right. |
| 19. kiisha: hii: T: ii ni mukubwa sawa vile anafanya sasa/ F: ya sasa/ T: eeh/ F: mm/ T: eko pale/ juu ya fête ya: bonne année: na vingt quatre novembre ii ilipita/ njo tulitosha ile tableau/ F: acha nipime kama nilisikia ii yote uliandikayo/ T: mm/ F: dix sept janvier? T: bon/ F: ni: ni kusema? T: dix sept janvier: ni shiku yee alipotea/ iko sawa: F: shiku ya ku: kuua: T: Lumumba/ F: Lumumba/ T: eeh/ F: kiisha: Gécamines/ kiisha: minoterie: T: de Matadi/ F: de Matadi/ T: eeh: ilifunguliwa sasa/ F: ilifunguliwa sasa? T: ah: ku Matadi/ F: mm/ T: yee: yee mu: F: mais uliweka sababu ya nini? pa ki: maneno ya nini? T: kwa sababu: ni: histoire yake: mambo yake ile ndani/ ni yeye nguvu yake njo iko nafungula ile bitu yote/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ F: Nsele/ T: Nsele: unafahamu? F: mm/ T: cité ya Nsele/ Kinshasa/ F: mm/ Sonas/ T: Sonas/ société nationale kama ya nani ya: F: na ki: kilo? T: pardon [looks at painting]: F: huyu/ T: hu: quartier de l'OUA/ F: quartier de? T: de l'OUA F: loyia? aah: quartier de l'OUA/ à Kinshasa/ T: eeh/ F: quartier de l'OUA/ le dix sept novembre? T: le dix sept? F: novembre/ T: fête ya bamilitaires/ F: ni ya fête ya bamilitaires/ T: aah/ F: le quatre janvier/ T: eh: jours ya bamartyrs ya Zaire/ F: eyo/ T: eeh/ F: na le dix huit mai? T: siku mama Yemo alikufa/ F: mama Yemo alikufa/ T: eeh/ F: maaa: Maluk? T: Maluku/ olalalala/ F: Maluku? T: mm nakotola: nani: u/ F: u/ T: ah/ F: ni: ni kusema nini/ T: Maluku? eh: ni: ts: ni nini: ni quartier tena: ni nani: ah quoi: ni société moya alifanya kule mais sifahamu muzuri/ F: mm/ T: na banaimba ndani mimbo kila mara/ F: aah ndani ya mimbo/ T: ya mimbo/ F: ya: ma disques? T: ah non: ndani ya mimbo ya nani: ya: révolution/ F: na révolution? T: aah/ F: ah bon/ Inga ni: na authenticité: Force Armée Zairoise/ T: Zairoise oui/ F: ah/ Sodimiza/ KDL: Kamoto/ vingt mai? T: vingt mai? F: mm/ T: fête ya: MPR/ F: ya MPR/ mm/ bon/ ts/ bien/ |
19. Then comes
this one. T: This one shows the chief (of state), what he does nowadays.[12] F: Nowadays. T: Yes. F: Mm. T: There he is. The occasion was the celebration of New Year and of last November 24. That’s when I came up with this painting. F: Wait, let me understand all the things you inscribed (on this painting). T: Mm. F: “January 17” T: Alright. F: Meaning? T: January 17, the day (Lumumba) disappeared. It’s like... F: A day to remember... T: Lumumba. F: Lumumba. T: Yes. F: Then, „Gécamines.“ Then, „Flower Mill“ T: ...of Matadi. F: Of Matadi. T: Yes, it was opened recently. F: It was opened recently? T: Yes, at Matadi. F: Mm. T: It was on.... F: But why did you put that down. What for? T: Because, it is part of (Mobutu’s) history, it represents what he does. It is him, his power that starts all those thing. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: “Nsele.” T: Nsele, you know about that? F: Mm. T: The cité of Nsele, in Kinshasa. F: Mm. “Sonas.” T: Sonas, Société Nationale, whatever (it is called). F: And “Kilo?” T: Sorry. [looks at painting] F: This here. T: This – the OUA headquarters. F: The headquarters of? T: Of the OUA. F: Loyia? Ah, the headquarters of the OUA in Kinshasa. T: Yes. F: The headquarters of the OUA. “November 27.” T: 27th... F: ...of November. T: The day of the army. F: It’s the day of the army. T: Yes. F: “January 4.” T: Yes, the day of the Martyrs of Zaire. F: I see. T: Yes. F: And “May 18?” T: The day Mama Yemo died. F: Mama Yemo died. T: Yes. F: Maaa, “Maluk?” T: Maluku, oh. F: Maluku? T: Mm, I left out a u. F: A u. T: Yes. F: What does it mean? T: Maluku? Well – what is it again? – a part of town where he set up a company, but I’m not really familiar with that. F: Mm. T: It’s something one always hears in songs. F: Ah, in songs. T: In songs. F: On records? T: Ah no, in songs of the revolution. F: Of the revolution? T: Yes. F: Ah, alright. Then, “Inga,” “Authenticity,” and “Zairean Army.” T: Zairean (Army), yes. F: Well, then “Sodimiza,” “KDL,” “Kamoto,” “May 20.” T: May 20? F: Mm. T: The day of the MPR. F: Of the MPR, mm. Alright, fine. |
| 20. tuko tena: na ingine/ I. S: ....?... F: yea I said/ you should ...?.../ tuko tena na ingine/ sasa ii: T: mais: oui? F: kabila yake: iko na jina? ni: ni adisi ao ni: T: ii: F: kama bantu banaomba: T: aah/ F: banasema namna gani? unifansie: T: unifansie calvaire d'Afrique/ F: calvaire d'Afrique/ T: aah/ F: aah/ T: sasa kwa shee: tunasema unifansie ile: tuna: banafunga Lumumba/ F: kufunga: kufunga Lumumba? T: aah/ kufungwa kwa Lumumba/ |
20. Then we
have another one. I. S.: ...?... F: Yea, I said. You should ...?... Then we have another one. Now this one. T: But – yes? F: What kind is this, does it have a name?[13] Is it a story or is it... T: This one. F: When people ask for it... T: Yes. F: ...how do they says, do me a... T: Do me an African Calvary. F: African Calvary. T: Yes. T: No, just among ourselves, we say, do one for me, when Lumumba was captured. F: When Lumumba was captured? T: Yes, when Lumumba was captured. |
| 21. F: sasa: ii ingine/ T: bon/ [takes up painting] F: huyu ingine? T: bon/ uturuhumie sawa mu motokari tulikuya naye ilikuwa matata sana/ I. S: be careful with the: F: bado kukauka? T: ah: ii bado kukauka/ sababu tunatoka sasa tu/ I. S: ...?.... F: aah/ T: tunatoka na Kipushi sasa/ F: bon/ I. S: j'ai mis ça ici/ [rummaging] F: bon/ tuanze na: uyu uko naye/ T: bon/ ii ni ya baArabes eh? F: baArabes? T: eeh/ c'est que wakati ile: tulikuwa zamani sana shee hata bankambo wee nazani bengine unabafahamu: kulikuwa ba: baArabes: banaanza kuwa kuuza batu/ F: mm/ T: et puis kuuza batu: banakwenda nabo banauzhisha/ sawa banègres Américains sawa banakuwa mingi/ F: c'est ça/ T: bon: kisha kuuza hivi banakwenda kuuzisha: banakwenda na muntu kuacha ku Amérique/ vile tu atujue na sasa vile ilikuya: banaanza kuuza bantu: njo tunajua/ wakati ya Ngongo Lutete: Tipo Tipo: na bale bengine/ balikuwa baArabisées/ F: mm/ T: aah/ F: mm/ T: sasa pale ni pa mukini: bantu banaisha kukimbia: njo kusema aba beko nakuya/ F: na yee? T: uyu ni muntu: eko Arabisée/ c'est à dire: anaanza kutumikia baArabes/ F: mm/ T: banamulipa: yee anakwenda anabamba batu: anakwenda kupeleka ku bakubwa/ F: mm/ T: na ule vilevile/ F: na ule vilevile/ T: sasa bale beko na nkamba: banafunga mu singo: na beko banabapika/ F: mm/ T: huyu sawa vile anachoka: ataweza kufa paka pale: kunaisha/ anabakia/ bo banakwenda tu/ mm/ [pause] F: mm/ bon/ na ii namna unafanyaka mingi? T: minafanyaka mingi/ F: mm/ bale baArabes/ |
21. F: Now,
this other one. T: Alright. [takes up painting] F: Is this another one? T: Alright. You have to excuse us because we had trouble with in in the car. I. S.: Be careful with the... F: It isn’t dry yet? T: Ah, this one isn’t dry yet, it took it out just now. I. S.: ...?... F: I see. T: We just came from Kipushi.[14] F: Alright. I. S. [in French] I put this here [rummaging] F: Alright, let’s get started with the one you have here. T: Alright. This one is (a painting) of the Arabs, right? F: The Arabs? T: Yes. This was long ago, in the time of our ancestors – I think you know about some of them. There were the Arabs who bought people. F: Mm. T: They bought people and went away with them and sold them, the American Negroes, for instance, a lot of them. F: That’s it. T: Alright, so the bought them and went away to sell them. They went away with a person and left him in America. Even nowadays we don’t really know how it came about that the bought people. What we do know is that it was the time of Ngongo Lutete, Tipo Tip, and those others. They used to be (called) arabisés. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Mm. T: Now, (the scene is) in a village. People have run away because (the Arabs) were coming. F: And this one? T: That one is an arabisé, that is to say, he works for the Arabs. F: Mm. T: They pay him, he goes around, catches people, and brings them to his chiefs. F: Mm. T: And that one, too. F: And that one, too. T: Now, the have a rope, which they tie around the neck. And they beat them. F: Mm. T: That one is exhausted, about to die, and that’s the end of it. He is left behind while they move on. Mm. [pause] F: Mm. Alright. Do you paint many (pictures) of this kind? T: I do a lot of them F: Mm. Those Arabs. |
| 22. kiisha: T: ile ni paysage: sawa vile unaona kwetu ku mukini/ F: mm/ T: aah/ iko kwetu ku mukini/ fasi bankambo baliikomelea/ bataweza kuyenga nyumba pembeni ya maji/ F: mm/ T: na kisha kuyenga nyumba pembeni ya maji: bana: toka mangaribi: banakwenda kulopola samaki/ wale wa kwenda kutembea pa: pa mutoni/ F: mm/ T: atatembea: banatembea: banarudia/ bale ni baba alikwenda nazania ku pori: analukata miti yake: juu ya kubeba ku nyumba yake kule/ F: mm/ T: ni fasi ya mutoni humu: fasi ya ku miti/ F: eyo/ T: eeh/ F: kumbe: na ii ingine? T: na ile ingine: balikwenda mu kulopola: samaki: juu kula/ F: mm/ T: banaisha kupata samaki yabo: ile ni mu makila yabo beko mbele hivi/ F: mm/ T: sasa kisha banafika: banaingia ku: ku pori: juu ya kutosha yote: banaingia mu miti kuko njia: kumbe kufika ku mugini/ F: kule? T: ile ni bilima: F: bile: bile: njo bilima? T: aah/ ni bilima mbali/ F: aah/ [aside to I. S.] those are mountains in back: background/ I. S: I wonder if he has seen some Egyptian: F: non: ...?... si njo: inafanana na pyramide? T: na pyramide? apana/ inakuya ni kilima tuseme tunafanya ...?... F: ni bilima tu? T: eeh/ ni mas: F: na hii muti ya: T: ya ngazi/ F: ya ngazi mm/ T: eeh/ F: mm/ njo yote sasa? ao tu pa: tuko nabakia na ingine? T: ma? F: paysages? non? T: apana/ inaisha/ I. S: mm/ F: ...?... inaisha? T: eeh/ |
22. Then. T: This is a landscape as you see it back home in a village. F: Mm. T: Yes. It’s back home in a village, the place where our ancestors grew up. They would build their houses near water. F: Mm. T: Having built their houses near water, they would leave in the afternoon to go fishing. (You see) them walking by the river. F: Mm. T: They go out and then they come back. Over there, I think this is a man who went to the bush to cut himself a tree, to bring back to his house there. F: Mm. T: There is is a wooded place by the river. F: I see. T: Yes. F: So, what about those other ones? T: And there are others who went out catching fish, to eat them. F: Mm. T: They caught their fish -- this one, in the front, he works with their net. F: Mm. T: Then the come (to the shore) and go into the bush, to unload everything. They take a path among the trees to get to the village. F: (And) over there? T: Those are mountains. F: Those are mountains? T: Yes, mountains in the distance. F: I see [aside to I. S. in English] those are mountains in the background. I. S.: I wonder if hes seen some Egyptian... F: No ...?... doesn’t this one look like a pyramide? T: Like a pyramide? No. It’s a mountain. Let’s say, we paint it ...?... F: It’s just mountains. T: Yes, it’s .... F: And this tree is... T: A palm tree. F: A palm tree, mm. T: Yes F: Mm. Is this all now? Or do we have some other (painting) left. T: You mean? F: Landscapes? No? T: No, that’s all. I. S.: Mm. F: That’s all. T: Yes. |
| 23. F: ni bien/ una: uko unafanya tena: makabila
ingine? T: nafanya makabila ingine/ F: sawa nini? T: ah: yote ile itaweza kuwa mu kichwa nitaanza kufanya: F: oui mais: T: kwa: F: sawa: sawa hivi: bantu banaomba kabila gani? T: kabila: nazania natumika: na calvaire d'Afrique: surtout [points to painting] ii: livre d'or: ...?... calvaire d'Afrique/ na Mobutu vilevile/ F: na Mobutu vilevile/ T: oui banalomba mingi sana/ F: banaomba mingi sana? T: ata huyu mwenzako eko nauza moja/ F: yee? T: aah/ yee ...? F: ulifika: uliisha kupita kule? T: sababu: mi sikujua muzuri fasi/ nauliza batoto: asema: kwenda kule utaweza kuuliza/ ...?... F: ii mwenza: mwenzangu? T: ah ii ya: voisin yako/ F: oui? T: aah/ F: ...?.../ uko: uko naingia na: na ingine? T: anauza moja/ F: aliisha kuuza? T: anauza moja/ F: leo? T: ah leo/ sasa/ F: ah bon/ mulifika tu? T: anabeba ile ya: ya le trente juin/ F: le trente juin/ T: eh/ F: mulikuwa na ingine vilevile? non? T: atukuwe na i: ku: ku kuya kutoka ku Kipushi? apana/ F: apana/ T: atukuwe na ingine/ I. S. : they already bought it? F: yea/ Turner/ T: ile tu mutoto njo alikuya jana: F: mm/ T: eh: kesho: ilikuwa samedi eh? ah: alikuya/ anakwenda mu Ruashi/ njo alikwenda kuacha ingine/ na alikuwa na wee vilevile mu zone? kama [looking at his companion] K: Kamalondo/ T: Kamalondo/ F: Kamalondo/ T: kulikuwa na ...?...deux jours/ F: mm/ T: aah/ F: très bien/ I. S. : na: Johannes: eh: have the Turners bought all the paintings they want? F: no/ I don't know/ I. S. : he asked me to tell me he was coming/ but he was already there/ F: oui/ mais: kama uko na hii: sawa hii tatu eh? tuko na nduku ingine anataka ku: T: ah: sawa ...?... F: mm? T: namna gani? F: ya hii: ya ya Lumbumba/ T: ya Lumumba? ....?... F: utaweza: na wee utaweza kufanya nsula yetu? T: sura: ni kweli nitaweza kufanya mais: nitapima eh? kama muko maerreurs: puisque: niko: ni: mi bado kujua/ na niko nakwenda tu/ F: mm/ T: sababu hakuna muntu anaisha kujua kitu apana/ F: mm/ T: mais akili iko napamba/ leta foto: nitakwenda kutumika/ nitakuwa naye/ kama iko juste: ...?.../ kama haina juste utani...?... I. S.: what? F: ehm: whether he could make our portraits/ I. S. : yea/ I will give him our photos/ F: Madame atakupatia foto/ T: bon/ [door closing, I. S. leaves the room] |
23. F: That’s
fine. Dou you still other kinds (of paintings)? T: I do other kinds. F: Like what? T: Well, everything that may be in my head, I’ll do it. F: Yes, but... T: For... F: (Let’s put it) like this. What are the kinds people ask for? T: Kinds – I paint African Calvary, above all [points to painting] this Golden Book ...?... African Calvary, and also Mobutu (the chief of state). F: And also Mobutu. T: Yes, it is very much in demand. F: It is very much in demand? T: Even this colleague of yours bought one. F: He. T: Yes, he...?... F: You already went by his place? T: It was because I did not now the way exactly I asked some children. They told me, go to that place, there you can ask...?... F: This colleague of mine? T: Yes, the one who is you neighbour? F: Really? T: Yes. F: ...?... Did you go inside with other (paintings)? T: He bought one. F: He already bought it? T: He bought one. F: Today? T: Yes, today, just now. F: Ah, alright. You just arrived? T: He kept this (painting) of June 30.[15] F: June 30. T: Yes. F: Did you have others with you? No? T: We didn’t – you mean when we left Kipushi? No. F: No. T: We didn’t have others. I. S.: They already bought it? F: Yea, Turner.[16] T: It was this young man (his companion Kabuika) who came yesterday. F: Mm. T: Well, the day after, that would be Saturday, right ? Yes, he came and went to Ruashi. There he left another one. And then he was also in – what was the township? [looking at his companion] K: Kamalondo. T: Kamalondo. F: Kamalondo. T: That was two days ago. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Very good. I. S.: Johannes, have the Turners bought all the paintings they want? F: No, I don’t know. I. S. : He asked me to tell me he was coming but he was already there.[17] F: Yes, but if you have some like these, these three, right? We have another friend who likes to.... T: Ah, like...?... F: Mm? T: How (do you mean)? F: Of this one, of Lumumba. T: Of Lumumba? ...?... F: Could you do our portraits? T: Portraits. True, I could do them, at least, I’ll try, right? There may be mistakes in them because I don’t know yet (how to do them). I just go (and do them). F: Mm. T: Because there is no one who know anything (with out trying first). F: Mm. T: But imagination will take care of it. Give me photographs and I go to work. I’ll bring them. If they are accurate...?... If not, you are going to tell me. I. S. : What? F: Ehm, whether he could make our portraits. I. S. : Yea, I will give him our photos. T: Alright. [door closing, I. S. leaves the room] |
| 24. F: bon/ ah: nazani njo yote/ uko ni kintu ku: ya
kuniuliza? T: mimi? F: ah/ T: nitaweza kuwa kintu ya kuuliza: kama naliwaza muzuri eh? F: mm/ T: naliweza kukuuliza/ ou bien nitakuwa nayo ya kukuliza/ kiisha yake/ sababu nitawaza polepole: njo kuweza kukuuliza/ F: mm/ sasa ku: I. S. : ...?... F: ile makuta una: unapata kwa kazi yako: unaweza kufanya mara ingine ya économies? T: oui: makuta niko napata nitafanya économies/ nitaweza kusaidia: bazazi: kusaidia ...?... ingine vilevile/ F: mm/ bazazi ku: ku: ku Likasi? T: ku Likasi/ F: uko na batoto? T: mimi? apana: sasa nalipa: F: uli: uli: ulioa sasa? T: naoa sasa/ niko na mwaka moja: bibi anakuwa na mimba/ F: eeh/ T: mm/ F: mm/ ...?.../ bon: muzuri: aksanti/ T: bon/ I. S. : we want to have the pictures back/ |
24. F: Alright.
I think that’s all. Is there something you want to ask me? T: Me? F: Yes. T: I could have something to ask you, if I give some thought, right? F: Mm. T: Then I could ask you. Or I come (back) with a question to ask you. Later. Because I need time to think before I can ask you. F: Mm. Now, about... I. S. :...?... T: About the money you earn with your work -- can you make some savings now and then? T: Yes, from the money I make I’ll some savings. I’ ll be able to help my parent and others, too. F: Mm. Your parents in Likasi? T: In Likasi. F: Do you have children? T: Me? No. I am paying (the bride price). F: You just got married? T: I just got married a year ago, my wife is pregnant. F: I see. T: Mm. F: Mm. ...?... Alright, fine. Thanks. T: Alright. I. S. : We want to have the pictures (i.e. our photos) back. |
| 25. F: leo mulirudia mu le: mu le seize décembre: na
kubeba hii matableaux ingine/ kumbe: unielezee kwanza hii: maana yake ya
arrestation à Lodja/ T: nitaanza na arrestation à Lodja: ni kusema: makati: ile: Lumumba alikuya mu Kinshasa: wakati ya gouvernement yake: achingaliki gouvernement: F: mm/ T: alikosana na Kasavubu eh? F: mm/ T: nitaweza kuletea tena ile: nani: tableau nitafutafuta ya Kasavubu juu cha kuletea/ bon: alikosana Kasavubu: mu meeting yake: Kasavubu alifanya mu stade ya: ilikuwa zamani stade Baudouin/ F: mm/ T: bon: sasa ni vingt mai/ kisha kukosana na: na Kasavubu: akukuwe mufano yee tena kudiriger gouvernement: balimutosha/ pa fasi/ nayee pa kiisha kumutosha: na baliweka mu résidence surveillée: akukuwa na namna ya kufanya: alitafuta mayele ya kukimbia: kwenda Kisangani/ F: mm/ T: bon: pa kutafuta kwenda Kisangani: kwake: ile mutokari alikuwaka naye: ilikuyaka marque Peugeot quatre cent et trois/ F: mm/ T: na ilikuwa couleur mweushi/ F: mm/ T: na ile siku ile: ali: ingia ndani ya motokari: kwa kuwaza akili alikuwa na: bakubwa ingine/ sawa baNendaka: na bengine: baliingia ndani ya voiture moja ile/ bon: balikimbia/ na kisha kukimbia: alikuwa na ile kitabu ile banasema kama livre d'or/ F: mm/ T: ile alipanga ndani: anafanya sanduku ya cercueil eh? F: mm/ T: anaweka ndani ile kitabu asema kama ni mutoto yangu anakufa/ na alipitisha ile kitabu: iliendaka/ F: [pointing to a child on the painting] na hii mutoto kule ku: T: pardon: tutakwenda eh? F: ah/ T: ahah bon/ kisha kupitisha: ile nani: sanduku eh? F: mm/ T: ndani ya motokari alikwa na mutoto ingine anaisha kukomea: iko [gesture indicating height]: F: njo mutoto yake? T: ule ni mutoto ungine yake tena/ F: mm/ T: sababu ile alisema ni kitabu/ mais mutoto nayee alikuwa ndani vilevile/ kwa sababu mama yake alibakiaka: ku: Kisangani/ F: mm/ T: bibi yake ya: Lumumba alibakia na Kisangani/ F: mm/ T: bon: kisha kubeba mutoto anaingisha ndani ya Peugeot: njo kukimbia/ kisha kukimbia kabisa kabisa: alifika: eh: pa Lodja/ na kisha kufika pa Lodja: utanihurimie ata niko nasema vile sa: shifanye politique: niko [with emphasis] historien/ F: c'est ça/ non non: ni vile ni vile/ T: niko artiste eh? F: uko historien? T: eeh niko historien: c'est à dire: niko artiste/ F: mm/ T: minatafuta ni histoire/ F: mm/ T: shiseme kama ni politique: non/ je ne fais pa la politique eh? ah bon voilà/ alors que: alifika mu Lodja: balimufunga/ na kisha kumufunga: kulikuwa: eh: nani huyu? Tshiatshi eh? njo alidiri: alikuwa nayee ...?... F: Chache? T: colonel: commandeur: kama colonel Tshiatshi/ F: mm/ T: njo aliwezea kumubamba: na bamilitaires ingine: banamubamba banamupeleka Kinshasa/ kisha kumupeleka Kinshasa: iko suite ile matableaux ingine nalikuelezea tena/ ça/ F: mm/ [recording interrupted for changing tape] |
25. F: Today,
December 16, you came back and brought use these other paintings. So then,
explain to me first the meaning of “Arrest at Lodja.”[18] T: I’ll start with the Arrest at Lodja. At he time when Lumumba was in Kinshasa, when he still headed the government. F: Mm. T: He had a falling-out with Kasavubu, right? F: Mm. T: I could also bring you that painting. I’ll look for the painting of Kasavubu so I can bring it. Alright, so there as conflict with Kasavubu. I came out in the meeting Kasavubu held in the stadium that used to be (King) Baudouin Stadium.[19] F: Mm. T: Alright. then came May 20. After having his conflict with Kasavubu (Lumumba) could no longer lead the government. They ousted him right there. After he was removed and put under house arrest he was immobilized and looked for a way to escape and go to Kisangani. F: Mm. T: Alright. The car he had during his attempted escape to Kisangani was a Peugeot 403. F: Mm. T: Its color was black. F: Mm. T: So the day he got into the car he was, I imagine when I think about it, accompanied other big shots. For instance, Nendaka, and others who got into that car. Alright, so they got away. When he escaped (Lumumba) had with him this book, the one people called the Golden Book. F: Mm. T: He had arranged for it – he had made a box, like a coffin... F: Mm. T: And put this book inside, saying, it is my child who died. So he smuggled out this book and it went (with him). F: [pointing to a child on the painting] And this child over there... T: Sorry, we’ll go on (with the story), right? F: Yes. T: Alright. So that box was smuggled out, right? F: Mm. T: In the car he had another child, about this tall. [gesture indicating height] F: This was is his child? T: That one is another child of his. F: Mm. T: What is was, he had said, this is a book but a child was also inside. (He took the child along) because his (or her) mother lived in Kisangani. F: Mm. T: Lumumba’s wife lived in Kisangani. F: Mm. T: Alright. He took the child, put it in the Peugeot, and fled. His escape trip eventually brought him to Lodja. When he arrived in Lodja – you have to bear with me, even as I keep talking it is not to get involved in politics, I am [with emphasis] a historian. F: That’s it. No, no. That’s what it is. T: I am an artist, right? F: You are a historian? T: T: Yes, I am a historian, that is, I am an artist. F: Mm. T: What I am after is history. F: Mm. T: I am not talking in terms of politics. No. [in French] I don’t do politics, right? Alright, there you are. Then, when he came to Lodja he was arrested. When he was arrested there was this Tshiatshi, right. He was ... F: Chache? T: ...a colonel, a commander, Colonel Tshiatshi. F: Mm. T: He, and some other military types, arrested him and brought him to Kinshasa. After bringing him to Kinshasa – the continuation is in those other painting I explained to you. F: Mm. [recording interrupted for changing tape] |
| 26. F: bon/ donc: tuna: tunaendelea na: T: bon/ ile: F: ile explications ya matableaux: T: ya: F: ii ya Lamum: Lumumba: uko na ingine ya Lumumba? T: nitakuya tu na mingi sana/ F: na histoire yake? T: paka histoire kwa histoire histoire tu/ F: mais: sawa vile ulisema: uko historien: T: bon/ F: na artiste/ T: niko artiste: oui/ niko historien/ F: ba: baartistes bote: beko his: beko historiens? T: mais: sinon: siseme kama ni ku: jivunisha mimi apana/ F: aah/ T: kwa sababu natembea kabisa eh? mu ii kazi: na naisha kujitrouver: kama ni mimi peke: niko nafanya: histoire/ na ku baartistes bengine banaisha kufika karibu na miye: F: mm/ T: juu ya kulomba: ile croquis: dis utusaidie na ile croquis/ minasema non inatoka mu kichwa yangu/ mi mwenyewe natumika/ F: mm/ T: aah/ F: sawa ile Peugeu: Peugeot kule ku: tableau ya: Lumumba/ u: uli: uliangaria Peugeot moya: ao ulikuwa na foto: ao? T: oui: naliangaria Peugeot: mu kita: mu journal j'ignore: F: mm/ T: nitaweza kutosha/ F: ahah/ T: ah bon/ nalipanga mu ile akili sasa/ |
26. F:
Alright, so we go one with... T: Alright, with this one. F: With explanations for paintings. T: ... F: This one, of Lumumba – (by the way) do have other (pictures) of Lumumba? T: I'll come with a lot. F: (Pictures showing) Lumumba's history? T: History and nothing but history. F: But, as you said, you are a historian. T: Fine. F: And an artist. T: I am an artist, yes. I am a historian. F: Now, are all the artists historians? T: Not really, and I am not saying this to show off. F: I see. T: It's just that I have been around a lot. And I found myself in this work, realizing that I alone do history. There are some among the other artists who approached me. F: Mm. T:To ask for a sketch. Say, help us with this sketch. Then I say, no, this comes out of my head. I myself work it out. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: This Peugeot, for instance, there on the picture of Lumumba. Did you have look at a Peugeot, or did you have a photograph, or what? T: Yes, I looked at a Peugeot in a book, or rather a newspaper, I forgot which. F: Mm. T: So that I could bring it out. F: I see. T: Yes, alright. Now I have it down in my imagination. |
| 27. F: mm/ très bien/ bon: kiisha: donc: hii ingine ya: T: ii ingine: una:.. F: ... kama bantu banaomba hii ingine: banasema nini? T: kama bantu banalomba ile banasema tunatafuta kichwa ya mashua ya Luena/ F: kichwa ya mashua: kichwa kichwa: yake... T: eeh/ kichwa ya mashua/ F: mm/ T: sawa beko banaita asema: tableau ile ya mashua/ F: mais kichwa: maana yake ya kichwa? T: kichwa njo asema ile: [chuckles] ile nani? F: ile mwanzo ya: T: ile mwanzo yake: ni kichwa ya mashua/ F: mm/ T: banasema tunatafuta tableau ya mashua/ F: mm/ T: bon/ ile: explication yake eh? eeh: ni kusema kama: pa Luena eh? F: mm/ T: wakati ya sécession au Katanga eh? ii wakati Katanga alijirévolter: na nani: ts: na alifanya révo: nani: kama ré: ali: ts: na rébellion ya tout court/ alikatala mambo ya: ya nani ya: Kinshasa eh? F: mm/ T: bon: alibakia kwake peke/ F: mm/ T: sawa vile alibakia kwake peke: alifanya état/ F: mm/ T: mu état ingine: sawa ile république du Congo: alifanya état yake: ilikuwa Katanga: état/ F: mm/ T: bon: kipande ya Nord Katanga: kulikuwa nakuwa banduku yetu balikatala ile mambo: ya: mambo ilikuya hapa/ ya Katanga/ F: c'est ça/ T: bon/ kisha kukatala ile mambo ya Katanga: Katanga aliona asema kama minatafuta kuleta paka Katanga ikuwe moja/ sawa bo banakatala: banakuwa barébelles/ bon/ kisha kusema barébelles: balikamata ba: eh: ex-gendarmes Katangais: banatuma kule: kwa kwenda kukombana: vita/ F: mm/ T: kuua bale batu: baitikie paka mambo ya: ya nani ya: quoi? ya: ya Katanga/ F: ya Katanga/ T: ...?... sawa bantu balikatala: akukuwe mufano: nabo balikuwa beko nakombana mishale: nabo na bunduki/ balipikanaka kabisa kabisa: F: mm/ T: na mwisho yake: ilikuwa ONU alifika: alikamataka: Katanga: anarudisha ku: Congo: F: mm/ T: sawa hivi sasa inakuwa Zai: baZairois shee bote/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ F: kumbe bale bantu tuna: tunaona kule: ile: na ke: nani: na mikuki? T: bon/ F: ni nani? T: bale batu eh? F: eh/ T: ni baguerriers/ F: guerriers ya ma: ya ya: T: mais: tuseme: ba kufwata ni bantu ya Nord Katanga: balianza kufia nabo: kama tubakie peke: twende ku: ku unité ya: Zaire/ ni kipande ya huku nabo balisema shee tubakie shee benyee Katanga/ F: ah/ T: sasa banafia ile kitu moja tena/ F: aah/ T: njo kusema ni kintu ile Lumumba alisema tuko tunatafuta tukuye unis/ ...?... F: na: pa: kufanya mashua: T: bon/ F: uliangaria tena foto? T: apana/ sawa: F: paka kichwa? T: eeh paka kichwa tu: sawa vile natembeaka nafanya tu mu kichwa: mina: pima: F: mais madétails? inakawa tu mu ki: T: paka mu kichwa tu: kwa kuona: mashua ile naisha kuona sawa vile minatembeaka ku mashua/ F: KDL/ T: eeh/ F: mais zamani ilikuwa BCK? T: non/ KDL ilikuwa zamani paka KDL/ c'est que ilikuya: Katanga: Dilolo: Léopoldville/ bon/ kisha yake sasa: banachanger: baliacha paka KDL/ F: mm/ T: njo inakuwa sasa Kinshasa: Dilolo: Lubumbashi/ F: mm/ T: aah/ F: si njo iko BCK? mu mwaka ya: ya séce... T: [overlapping] bon: ile: ile ilikuwa BCK/ F: ah/ T: bon/ alafu habakuandikaka: BCK kule hapana/ banaandika paka KDL/ F: aah/ T: pa kuchunger: balicha: balichanger paka: Katanga: Dilolo: ...?... F: [overlapping] hii wakati ya Tshombe? T: ah: wakati ya mukubwa ile ...?...akafanya eh? F: eeh/ T: non ilikuya BCK/ F: mm/ T: bon: abakuandike ku: mashua kama BCK/ banaandika paka KDL/ |
27. F: Mm.
Very well. Alright, then this other one of... T: This other one, you... F: ...when people ask for this other one what do they say? T: When people ask for it they say we want the “Head of the Train” of Luena.[20] F: Head of the Train, head, ist head... T: Yes, the head of the train. F: Mm. T: That’s what they call this painting of a train. F: But, head, what does head mean? T: Head means this [chuckles], what is it called? F: The front of... T: Its front, that is the head of a train. F: Mm. T: They say, we are looking for a painting of the train. F: Mm. T: Alright. (You want) its explanation, right? Well, for instance, at Luena, right? F: Mm. T: During the secession of Katanga, right? At that time Katanga revolted and made a revo(lution), how should one call it, a rebellion, in brief. (Katanga) rejected what was going on in Kinshasa, right? F: Mm. T: Alright, it was by itself. F: Mm. T: Since it was by itself it set up a state. F: Mm. T: A separate state. As there was a Republic of the Congo, it had its own state, the State of Katangs. F: Mm. T: Alright, in the region of North Katanga there were our brothers who refused to go along with what happened here, this business of Katanga. T: Alright. Having refused the affairs of Katanga, the (secessionist state of ) Katanga saw this (and decided) I am going to see to it that Katanga is united. Since the ones who were against it, they were rebels. Once it was established that they were rebels, the former Gendarmes of Katanga were sent there to fight them. It was war. F: Mm. T: To kill people with the aim to make them accept (the state) of Katanga. F: Of Katanga. T: ...?... Since people resisted they had no choice but to fight with arrows whereas (the Katanga troops fought) with guns. They really went at each other. F: Mm. T: And in the end the UN troops arrived and took Katanga and returned it to the Congo. F: Mm. T: This is how it is now Zai(re), all of us are Zaireans. F: Mm. F: So, the people we see over there (they fight) with spears? T: Alright. F: Who are they? T: Those people, right? F: Yes. T: They a warriors. F: Warriors of... T: Let’s just say, they are people (fighting) for North Katanga) dying for the cause. We want to be by ourselves and go for the unity of Zaire. It was in this region here where they said, we want to stay apart as Katanga. F: I see. T: They died just for that one cause. F: I see. T: Lumumba’s cause when he said, we should seek to be united. ...?... F: And when you painted the train. T: Alright. F: Did you also look at a photograph? T: No, like... F: You had it in your head? T: Yes, just the head. Since I get around I do the painting in my had, I try... F: But what about the detail? Is it just in your head. T: Only in the head, from observing trains, from when I get around the railways. F: (About the inscription} KDL. T: Yes. F: But wasn’t it BCK before? T: No. In the past, KDL was KDL. It meant Katanga, Dilolo, Léopoldville.[21] Alright, they changed it but they retained (the acronym) KDL. F: Mm. Now it meant Kinshasa: Dilolo, Lubumbashi. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Wasn’t that BCK during the time of the sec(ession)... T: [overlapping] Alright, that was BCK... F: Yes. T: Alright. However, they didn’t write it BCK, they just wrote KDL. F: I see. T: To change it they just changed it to Kantanga, Dilolo...?... F: [overlapping] At the time of Tshombe? T: Yes, when he was the chief, that’s what he did, right. F: I see. T: No, it was BCK. F: Mm. T: Alright. They did not write BCK on the trains, just KDL. |
| 28. F: mm/ kumbe s: ulifika sasa na ulisema: mulikuwa na nani: na: mu
nyumba: ulisema nini? mulikuwa na: kwenu ku nyumba? T: ah/ F: mulikuwa na: na bantu bamingi balifika: T: juu ya kuuza matableaux/ ndiyo/ kulikuwa batu: balikuwa kubeba ile matableaux/ sawa vile nalitumika mu juma moya/ F: mm/ T: nalikuwa na douze tableaux/ F: surtout ya nani: ya ya baGécamines? T: eh: bantu ya Gécamines njo balibeba/ F: siku ya malipo: T: siku ya malipo/ F: kila siku: siku ya malipo banafikaka? T: banafikaka eeh/ na kuko bengine hapa nalisema baliniachia makuta yabo: ya kusema: fanya nguvu: utufansie paka ingine/ na hapa nibakuelezea unaona kama macho yangu iko rouge eh? F: mm/ T: c'est que naliveiller/ F: [laughs] T: eh nalikatisha kweupe tu shiku ya leo: sikutoka hata/ F: mara ingine bana: banaweka makuta: kwanza banaweka makuta: kiisha banaongojea? T: banaongojea: minabafansia: nabapatia/ F: ah bon/ T: aah/ F: kumbe unafanya sawa na kuongosha: ku: T: apana bo bana: F: ya crédit? T: apana/ bo banaleta bo/ F: mm/ T: makuta yabo/ kisha minabapatia/ F: ah bon/ T: bon/ kuko bengine minabapatia: bo banaleta makuta le quinze ingine/ F: ahah/ T: aah/ ni sawa/ F: c'est ça/ très bien: donc: twiko na mashu: kichwa ya mashua: na ingine ya: T: arrestation: F: ah ingine tuli: tulikuwa nayo ii: T: ile uko nayo/ F: mm/ T: ah/ F: mm/ merci/ [recording interrupted] |
28. F: Mm.
When you came just now you talked about having people in you house. What was
it you said? You had people in your house? T: Yes. F: You had lots of people who had come T: To buy paintings. Yes, there were people taking away those painting, a week’s work. F: Mm. T: I had twelve paintings. F: (Selling) above all to Gécamines workers? T: Yes, it was people working at Gécamines who took them. F: Payday. T: Payday. F: So they come every payday? T: They come, yes. And, as I said, there are some who leave their money with me saying, make an effort and do another one for us. Then I tell them, do you see how red my eyes are? F: Mm. T: It’s because I stayed awake. F: [laughs] T: I worked through till dawn. I haven’t been outside yet today. F: Do they sometimes put money down and then wait? T: They wait, I do (the painting) for them and get it to them. F: Ah, alright. T: Yes. F: So you paint, as it were, borrowing (money)? T: No, they... F: On credit? T: No, they bring... F: Mm. T: ...their money and then I give them (the painting). F: Ah, alright. T: Alright. There are some I give (the painting) and they bring the money on the next fifteenth. F: I see. T: Yes. That’s how it is. F: That’s it. Very well. So we have (a painting) of the train, the Head of Train, and another one of... T: (Lumumba’s) arrest. F: Yes, and another one we already had before. T: The one you have. F: Mm. T: Yes. [recording interrupted] |
| 29. F: ni kintu moya tuta: tunapashwa kudiscuter
kiloko/ T: aah/ F: sawa vile mine: minakuonyesha sasa: ah: hii tableau moya ya Ilunga/ T: bon/ F: nataka kuuliza sawa wee: eh: T: namna gani: F: namna gani una: unaona hii: T: naona: F: tableau? T: ah: tableau eh? F: mm/ T: c'est vrai: na mimi vilevile pale nalianzaka eh? nalianza vile/ njo: F: ulianza vile? T: njo ku mwanzo: kabisa ku mwanzo/ F: mm/ T: alafu pale minaanza kuzobelea: minaendelea ni mi mu akili sasa/ F: mm/ T: na kwa kufwata minaona yee ni muntu achingaliki naanza/ F: sawa hii namna yake unaona ni: ni: yee bado ku: kuendelea? T: kufahamu: yee bado kufahamu hapana/ a: anaanza sasa/ F: anaanza sasa? T: eeh/ F: mm/ T: na: kama: kama mi niko na ile picha: nitaweza kutengeneza mawazo yangu: na minakuletea tena/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ ku mawazo yangu nitaweza kutengenezayo muzuri: minaleta/ F: mm/ T: eh/ F: mais: yee atapashwa: ku mawazo yako: atapashwa kuendelea namna gani? T: ku mawazo yangu: kuendelea? F: mm/ yee/ maneno asema: ulisema: yee anaikala ku: T: bon: F: sawa: mwenye kuanza: T: nitengeneze/ F: mais: pa kuendelea: atapashwa kufanya nini? namna gani? T: pa kuendelea? F: mm/ T: anapashwa kubakia karibu na baartistes: bengine: bakubwa yetu bale/ sawa vile Pilipili: kama ni vile: na baKalumba Gabriel/ jina ya zamani: F: mm/ T: ataweza ku: tumika: ataweza kuendelea/ wala kwa mimi: na mi mdogo naanza kufwata: tutatweza kwenda naye pamoja: tuko na: pandisha akili/ F: mm/ T: kwa sababa sasa achingaliki nayee anaanza/ F: mm/ T: aah/ F: na wee ulifanya tu: wee mwenyewe/ T: ni kweli/ mimi nalifanya mi moya sawa vile nalikuelezeaka/ F: mm/ T: ilikuwa mu akili yangu kweli peke tu/ nalianza polepole polepole/ nayee vile kama anafanya/ akipakale peinture: vile anajua kama nalikotola: mustari mu: inaonekana kama ni croquis eh? inakuwa sawa croquis: F: mm/ T: bon shiku nayee anatafuta mayele ya kusema nipoteze ile mustari: kama anazobelea tena atafika nitengeneze muzuri: bashi: ataendelea/ F: ah: hii mustari una: unaona kama ni: inaonekana kwa hii mustari kama eh: T: sawa ni croquis tuseme F: croquis tu/ mm/ yee bado: T: yee bado: F: kupata namna ya peinture/ T: kufahamu eeh/ F: mm/ mais macouleurs? T: couleurs eh? oui/ anamélanger: mais: paka kufunza/ atukatale apana/ sababu ku baartistes eh? ai: akuna: akuna mu: mu art: amuna critique/ mu art: F: hamuna critique mu art? T: mu art amuna: kucritiquer mwenzako: wee artiste mwenzako: F: hawezi? T: apana/ angaria tu: waza mawazo ile anafanya: iko muzuri/ alafu bale ba: banani ba: bale batu ya kuangaria eh? oui: bataweza kuleta critique: ao wala mwenye aliisha kujuaka: mu: ata: ata professeur sawa vile wiko: kama alifunda ku académie: F: mm/ T: bataweza kumucritiquer kuko bapeuple kwa kufika mbele wanaangaria oh: comme ça: [trailing off] ...?... F: ah/ T: mais sawa shee be: bengine kama minafika: mitaona oui: iko muzuri/ F: mm/ T: alafu ni muzuri/ F: mais: kumbe ku: ndani ya nkundi ya baartistes: hauwezi kucritiquer? T: apana shiwezi nacritiquer kitu muntu anafanya: sababu ni mawazo inatumia: anafia hii mawazo iendelee/ mitaweza kufika njo kumusaidia mawazo ile kama iko/ F: kumbe: ni vile: non/ eh: mwee bote: kila: kila artiste: anatumikaka paka peke yake? T: ba: baartistes ni kwa sheye/ kwa mawazo yetu: F: ah/ T: tuko natumika: muntu: mawazo yake/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ asema nitoshe kintu yangu muzuri: F: hauwezi kuendelesha ingine? T: ah non: ataweza kuendelesha ungine/ F: utaweza? T: nalisema nitaweza kuendelesha ungine/ F: mais: pasipo ku: kucritiquer? T: apana/ critique hapana/ tutaweza kumuconseiller/ muko ma conceils/ F: mm/ T: nataweza ...?... F: kushauri/ T: aah: kushauria/ dis: fanya hivi: fanya hivi: na vile ataweza kujua/ iko sawa chance: ata vile mutoto hapa tuko naye/ kama ni muntu wa akili: F: mm/ T: sawa minakalaka naye kila mara: ataweza kufahamu nayee shiku ingine kupenta/ F: mm/ T: wala kuko tena mutoto moja nalikuya nayee pa Kamina/ nazania nani: Mbu: ah oui: Mbuyi/ F: mm/ T: aah: Mbuyi ule baba yake njo alimuleta kwangu/ na ali: toshaka na makuta kwa lakini kidogo alinipatiaka: asema: fundisha mutoto yangu ii kazi/ nalibakia naye: mi bado na mi kufahamu muzuri/ F: mm/ T: shee bote: na alafu minaanza kumufindisha sasa/ F: mm/ T: minamufundisha: namufundisha: inafanya six mois: minaona mutoto kidogo alikuwa na miaka nazania quatorze eh/ F: mm/ T: anatoka asema minakwenda: anakwenda ku Kinshasa/ sasa hapa anakwenda kuandikisha masomo: ku académie des beaux arts ku Kinshasa: anaendelea na akili/ sijue sasa anaisha kunipita na mi mbali kabisa/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ ni vile/ tunasaidianaka/ F: mm/ T: eh/ F: muzuri/ T: ni tableau inaonekana kwa lakini/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ F: mm/ très bien/ |
29. F: There
is one thing we should discuss a little. T: Yes. F: For that I now show you this painting by Ilunga. T: Alright. F: I want to ask, you, well... T: How... F: How do you see this... T: ...I see it. F: ... this painting? T: Ah, the painting, right? F: Mm. T: True, I also started like that, right. I began like that, that was... F: You began like that? T: That was at the beginning, the very first beginning. F: Mm. T: But then I got used to it and got to what is now in my imagination. F: Mm. T: And then, I see he is a person who is still at the beginning. F: Observing how he works you see that has not gotten far yet? T: He doesn’t have the experience yet. He began (painting) just recently. F: I began recently? T: Yes. F: Mm. T: And if I had this picture I cold fix it according to my ideas and bring it back to you. F: Mm. T: Yes, according my ideas I could fix it and bring it. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: But how do you think he should move forward? T: In my thoughts – move forward? F: Mm. (I’m talking about) him, because you said he is still... T: Alright. F: ...a beginner. T: I could fix (the painting). F: But, to make progress, what would he have to do? How (would he do it)? T: To make progress? F: Mm. T: He must stay close to other artists, those who are our elders, like Pilipili and the likes of Kalumba Gabriel, names of the past. F: Mm. T: Then he could work and make progress, as in my case where a young (colleague) learns from me (lit. follows me). Together we’ll move and increase our understanding. F: Mm. T: Because now he is still a beginner.[22] F: Mm. T: Yes. F: And you did it by yourself. T: That’s true. I did it by myself, as I explained to you. F: Mm. T: I was truly in my mind alone. I started out slowly. And if he does likewise, when he puts on paint he knows that, if I drew lines (the painting) will look like a sketch, right? It’s like a sketch. F: Mm. T: Alright, some day, once he gets used to it, he’ll look for a way to get rid of those lines and come (to me) so that I fix it nicely. That is when he’ll make progress. F: Ah, if those line show you consider it... T: ..like a sketch, let’s say. F: Just a sketch. Mm. As yet, he hasn’t ... T: Not yet. F: ... got the knack for painting. T: Understanding it, yes. F: Mm. But what about (his) colors? T: His colors? Yes. He mixes them but only like someone who is learning. We should not dismiss that. Because among artists, in art, there is no criticism. (Not) in art. F: There is no criticism in art? T: In art, there is no such thing as criticizing your colleague, you criticizing your fellow arts. F: That is not allowed? T: No. Just look and think the thought he painted, that is fine. But the public (lit. people who look), yes, they can come up with criticism. Or someone who is an expert, a professor who may have studied at an academy. F: Mm. T: They may criticize (the artist) before the public, first having taken a look and formed a judgment.[23] F: Ah. T: But among us (artists) – when I visit some of them I may look (and tell myself), yes this is good. F: Mm. T: Yes, this is good. F: But – so, inside the group of artists, you may not criticize? T: No, I must not criticize what a person does because it is an idea he works on, so that this idea develops. I may help him with the idea, provided it is there. F: So that’s how it is – no, (let me try another angle), all of you, every artist always work just by himself? T: Artists – just among us, according to our thoughts... F: Ah. T: ...we work on, a person has his (own) thoughts. F: Mm. T: Yes. Telling ourselves, I should do my thing well. F: So you cannot make another one progress? T: Ah, no. (I am not say that) one can make someone else progress. F: You can? T: As I said, I can make another one progress. F: But without criticizing. T: No, no criticism. We may give him advice, you (may have) advice. F: Mm. T: I could ... F: ...counsel. T: Yes, offer counsel. Say, do it like this, do it like that, and that way he’ll know. It’s a matter of chance, like with the young man who is with me. If he is an intelligent person... F: Mm. T: ...and I stay close to him all the time, some day, he too will understand and (know how to) paint. F: Mm. T: Take that youngster I had with me in Kamina. I think (his name was) Mbu, yes, Mbuyi. F: Mm. T: Yes, Mbuyi’s father brought him to my place, and came of with money – well, he paid me a little, saying, teach my child this work. I stayed with him – I wasn’t all that competent yet. F: Mm. T: Both of us (were beginners) but still, I began to teach him then. F: Mm. T: I went on teaching him, for six months, realizing that he was just a youngster, fourteen years old. F: Mm. T: Then he left, saying, I am going. He went to Kinshasa. So he went to register at a school, at the Academy of Fine Arts in Kinshasa where he progressed. I don’t know but, by now, he may have surpassed me by far. F: Mm. T: Yes. That’s how it is. We always help each other. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Fine. T: But it’s in the painting where it shows. F: Mm. T: Yes. F: Mm. Very well. |
