A conversation with Beya Ilunga and Luaba Tshibinguvu, recorded September 12, 1973 at J. Fabian’s home in Lubumbashi.
| 1. F: ...micro yake: iko ndani/
B: iko ndani/ iko ndani: merci/
F: aah: haina naye: mais: wee uta: utaweza kuwa karibu kiloko/ [noise of placing the recorder] sawa vile tutasikilizana/
B: ah merci/
F: kumbe: [pause] tulikutana na: na mudogo yako kule ku jina:
F: ku njia: na yee alikuwa kuuzisha: Mamba Muntu/ ni kusema wee unatumika...
B: kutumika kazi ya: kazi ya...
F: [overlapping] kutumika kazi yako?
B: hapana: paka ya hii/
L: [overlapping] paka ya hii/
F: paka hii matableaux?
L: ya artiste/
F: kila siku:
B: kila shiku minatumika kazi/
F: na jina yake ni: yako ni?
B: Beya Ilunga/
F: Beya Ilunga:
| 1. F:
...its microphone is inside.
B: It’s inside. It’s inside, thanks.
F: Yes, it doesn’t have one (outside). But you can come a little closer [noise of placing the recorder]. That way we’ll understand each other.
B: Ah, thanks.
F: So [pause], we met with your younger [sister] there on the street.
F: On the street. And she was selling a Mamba Muntu (painting). So you are working...
B: Doing the work of, the work of...
F: [overlapping] ...working in your job?
B: No (I don’t have a job), just this (work as a painter).
L: [overlapping] only this (work).
F: Only those paintings?
L: (Working) as an artist.
F: Every day.
B: I work every day.
F: And his, or rather, your name is?
B: Beya Ilunga.
F: Beya Ilunga.
| 2. F: [to L] na yako?
L: mi niko Luaba: Tshibinguvu/
F: La: Luaba:
L: Luaba: Tshibunguvu/ [chuckles]
F: Baluba ya kweli/ [laughing]
F: Balu: Baluba ya kweli/
F: sasa: ulizaliwa hapa?
B: mi nilizaliwa kwetu ku Kasai/
F: kwetu ku: ku: kwenu ku Kasai?
B: ku Kasai/
F: na ulifika hapa?
F: pa utoto ao?
B: nilifika hapa mutoto/
F: pamoya na bazazi/
B: mm/ minafanya kipande ya mashiku: kutoka minaenda ku Kinshasa/ njo kule masomo: mu masomo ya mbele/
F: ulisoma mu masomo?
F: ya Saint Luc?
B: ya Saint Luc/ iko ya...?...
F: miaka ngapi?
B: nilitoka nilifanya miaka tatu/
F: miaka tatu kule?
F: paka peinture?
B: paka peinture/ njo kutoka: lufu ya baba: njo mina: mi minakosa moyens...?../
F: baba alikufa mu Kinshasa?
B: alikufa ku Kinshasa/
F: alikuwa nani: alikuwa...
B: ...alikuwa travailleur ya OTRACO/
F: [to L] And yours?
L: I am Luaba Tshibinguvu.
L: Luaba Tshibinguvu. [chuckles]
F: Real Baluba. [laughing]
F: Real Baluba.
F: Now, you were born here?
B: I was born back home in Kasai.
F: Back home in Kasai?
B: In Kasai.
F: And you came to this place (when)?
B: I arrived...
F: ... during childhood, or?
B: I came to this place as a child.
F: (As) a child.
F: Together with your parents.
B: Mm. I spent some time (here), then I left and went to Kinshasa. That is where I went to school first.
F: You went to school?
F: At Saint Luc’s?
B: At Saint Luc’s. It’s the...?...
F: Is that so?
F: How many years?
B: When I left I had done three years.
F: Three years, there (in Kinshasa)?
F: Just painting.
B: Just painting. Then I left. Because of my father’s death I didn’t have the means (to continue).
F: Father died in Kinshasa?
B: He died in Kinshasa.
F: What was he, was he...
B: ...he was a worker at OTRACO.
F: I see.
| 3. F: kiisha: uko: ulizaliwa mwaka gani?
B: nilizaliwa mu dix-neuf cent quarante-huit/
F: ahah/ kumbe: pa: kufa yake?
B: kufa yake: njo minakosa moyens kule/
F: ku: ku:
B: ku masomo ...?...njo minaenda..?...
F: mais hii wakati uli: ulitumika mu nani: mu Kinshasa: ulikuwa: kuuzisha: matableaux yako?
B: nilikuwa tu kuuzisha pale/
F: ya hii namna? ao namna gani?
B: mm/ paka masortes hii: sortes ingine ...?... kule ya baKongo/
F: Then, what year were you born?
B: I was born in 1948.
F: I see. So, when (you father ) died?
B: When he died I didn’t have the means (to stay) there.
B: ...in school...?... so I went....?....
F: But, at that time, when you worked in Kinshasa, were you selling your paintings?
B: I was selling there.
F: (Paintings) like these, or what kind?
B: Mm. Just these kinds (and) other kinds ...?... there in Bakongo (country).
| 4. F: mm/ [pauses] bon/ kumbe kiisha ulitoka Kinshasa?
B: mm/ njo minakuya huku/
F: ulifika hapa/
F: mu mwaka gani?
B: nilifika mu soixante-sept/
F: kufika hapa?
F: et ulianza?
B: nilianza paka kutumika hii kazi yangu/
F: pake ile kazi?
B: mm/ na mina: kuuzisha ku Zambie...?...
F: ku Zambie bana: banauzaka?
B and L: beko nauza sana/
L: banapenda...?...yote sana:
B: [overlapping] ...?...
L: yuu: Zambia: bana: banasikiaka mu kila ya bantu...
L: ...banasikiaka jina Monsieur Brown:
B: [overlapping] banasema kazi:
L: njo ni alitenda mu sula ya kila bantu: juu ya ?buyangee: inaisha/ habayue hii maso...?.../
F: mupila ya bantu?
F: ...?...oui oui/
B: ça/ tout ça/
F: Mm. [pauses] Alright, so then you left Kinshasa?
B: Mm. That is when I came here.
F: You came to this place.
F: What year (was that)?
B: I arrived in 67.
F: Arriving here?
F: And you began?
B: I began to do this work of mine.
F: Only this work?
B: Mm. And selling in Zambia...?...
F: In Zambia they buy (paintings)?
B and L: They buy a lot.
L: They really like...?...all that...
B: [overlapping] ...?...
L: In Zambia, everyone has heared...
L: They have heard the name of Mr. Brown.
B: [overlapping] ...they talk about work.
L: He was the one who was known by everyone because of ...?.... They don’t know these ...?...
F: Sweaters people wear?
L: Yes, ...?....
B: All that.
| 5. F: na [pauses] kumbe una: unaenda kila: sijue: kila
mwezi ao? wee unae: sasa: hapa sasa unaenda mu eh: mu Zambie? pa kuuzisha?
B: sasa tulitaka kwenda mais: juu ya commande...
L: hii commande ...?...
F: ah bon?
L: oui oui/
F: eyo/ [pauses] na: nani anauza: matableaux mu: mu Zambie?
L: bantu mingi/
B: bauza: ...?...
L: [overlapping...?... tuko naenda kufika ku nyumba: tunauliza sawa...
F: ...ku mamigini? alors Ndola?
B: mu Ndola: mu Kabubu sawa: section Kabwishi/
B: na Masala: na: mm: ts: Ndeke: et puis Tshifubu:
B: kwenda kuzua manyumba/ tunawaonyesha matableaux: kama iko muzuri: uningia mu nyumba: na iko bien/ banatulipa pale/
F: banalipa muzuri?
L: banalipa muzuri tu bien/
B: [overlapping] mm: mm/
L: bien bien bien/
F: kupita hapa?
L: hapana/ si yu mm: paka vile [claps] tu na ...?.../
F: paka vile?
F: And [pauses] so, these days, every month or so, you go to Zambia to sell (you paintings)?
B: Right now, we were planning to go there but because of the order...
L: ... this order (we have)...?...
F: Is that so?
L: Yes, yes.
F: I see. [pauses]. And who (are the people who) buy paintings in Zambia?
L: Lots of people.
B: The people who buy...?...
L: [overlapping] ...?...we go around, to (peoples’) houses, and ask like...
F: ...in the towns? So, Ndola?
B: In Ndola, in Kabubu, the part (of town called) Kabwishi.
B: And Masala, and, let’s see, Ndeke, and then in Tshifubu.
B: (It means) going around and explore houses. We show them the paintings and if
it goes well you get inside the house and that is good. Then they pay us.
F: Do they pay well?
L: They pay real well.
B: [overlapping] Mm, mm.
L: Well, well, well.
F: More than here?
L: No, just about the same as we (get here).
F: Just the same?
F: na [pauses] pa kuuzisha kule munasemaka nini: tshiBemba?
L: nayua kiBemba sana/ kiBemba sana: kuyua kuyua yangu/
F: [to B] weye?
B: miye bado/
B: ...?... hapana mi: sijue/ [claps]
L: minayua kiNya: nani: kiBemba: kiNyanza/
F: ahaah/ sawa vile: maneno wee ulikomea kule?
F: baba yako alikuwa kule?
L: hapana: njo sema mi: balinizaliwa Kamina/ Banza/
L: kiisha tunatoka Kamina: saa ile ma: matrable inaianza kufanya:
L: yee anatoka alienda ku mugini: tunarudia ku mukini: tunakuwa Kasongo nani: kule ya ?Sud/ tunaikala quatre ans: shee tunatoka ...?... tunakuya huku/
L: minaanza [claps] kufunda masomo/ sawa: mambo ingine: inaonekana: minatomboka [claps] minatoka masomo/ nilienda naye Zambie/
F: paka wee moya?
L: mi mwenyewe tu: kunaisha/ mm/ minafika Zambie: minaikala minaanza kutumika ma Robert Contraction/
F: wapi ku?
L: Robert Contraction/
F: Robert Contraction/
I: ile parle anglais?
F: ah oui mais: he: he: he has spent eh: many years in Ndola/ he is doing: he is assuring the Zambian side of: of his selling/
I: is this as popular in Zambia as here?
F: anasema: bana: bana: sawa vile nili: niliuliza/
F: banapenda sana?
L: eeh: banapenda sana: banapenda/
B: [overlapping] banapenda/
I: do they have the Mamba Muntu?
F: beko banapenda Mamba: Mamba Muntu?
L: eh banapenda sana/
B: [overlapping] ...?...
L: banashangaa sana/ banashangaa sana/
B: paka bantu beushi: ni sielezee lakini?
F: ah non/
F: mais mara ingine ba: bazungu: banau: banauzaka matableaux yako? kule ku Zambie/
B: ku Zambie:
L: ah yo beko nauza/
B: sawa mapaysages:
L: tunawekaka fashi ya OK Bazar/ kule inje kule/
L: banakuwa asema ah: banabeba mingi...?...
F: na hapa?
B and L: ah hapa beko nauza/
F: bazu: bazungu banauza?
B: bamingi/ mingi tele: ya kupita/
F: na paka paysages?
F: paka paysages/
I: but not the: they only buy the paysages?
I: But they don’t buy the Mamba Muntu?
F: Mamba Muntu haba: habapende?
B: ah: hapana/ [chuckles]
F: And [pauses] when you are selling there what do you speak, Bemba?
L: I know Bemba really well. Bemba I really know.
F: [to B] (And) you?
B: Not yet.
B: ...?...Not me, I don’t know it. [claps]
L: I know Nya, what is it again, Bemba and Nyanza.
F: I see, this is because you grew up there?
F: (Was this when) your father lived there?
L: No, I was born in Kamina, in Banza.
L: Then we left Kamina at the time when the troubles started.
L: So he left and went to the village and we returned to the village. We are from Kasongo, over there in the South. We stayed for four years, then we left...?.. and came here.
L: (Then) I began [claps] to go to school. Because of something that happened, I messed up [claps] and left school and went to Zambia too.
F: You by yourself?
L: Just me alone, mm. When I got to Zambia I lived there and began to work for Roberts Construction.
F: Where was that?
L: Roberts Construction.
F: Roberts Construction.
I: [in French] He speaks English?
F: [mixing French and English] Yes, he has spent many years in Ndola. He is doing, he is assuring the Zambian side of, or his selling.
I: Is this as popular in Zambia as here?
F: What she is saying, as I asked (before)...
F: ...they like (painting) a lot?
L: Yes, they really like it, they like it.
B: [overlapping] They like it.
I: [in English] Do they have Mamba Muntu?
F: Do they like (paintings of ) Mamba Muntu?
L: Yes they like them very much.
L: They marvel at them. They marvel at them.
B: Only black people. Should I not explain that?
F: Well, no.
F: But are there sometimes Europeans who buy your paintings? Over there in Zambia?
B: In Zambia...
L: ...ah, they buy them.
B: Like landscapes.
L: We put them (on view) at a place (called) OK Bazar, outside there.
L: (Europeans) come by, they say ah and take away many...?...
F: I see.
F: And what about here?
B and L: Ah, here they buy them.
F: Europeans buy (your paintings)?
F: Many (Europeans)?
B: Many of them, and a lot (of paintings).
F: And only landscapes?
F: Just landscapes.
I: But not the – they only buy the paysages?
I: But they don’t buy the Mamba Muntu?
F: They don’t like Mamba Muntu?
B: Ah, no. [chuckles]
| 7. F: bon/ kiisha: [pauses] ah/ bon: sawa vile ulisema:
wee: njo kazi yako?
B: njo kazi yangu...?.../
F: na: unafanyaka ngapi: kila sik: eh: disons: kila juma?
B: kila juma? itaweza...
F: ...inaachana na:
B: inaachana masortes/
F: mais: disons: moyen?
B: moyen itakuwa mavingt/
F: mavingt? mavingt tableaux?
B: vingt tableaux/
F: et unauzishaka yote ya...
B: ...paka kuuzisha pale/ nitaenda kutumika sawa kuongoja madates ikoamo/
F: sawa sawa: uko na bantu ngapi ya kutumikia kazi yako? sawa yee na...
B: niko paka ba: petit frère yangu/
F: na hii mudoko yako?
L: huyu ...?...Jean/
F: aha/ na hii: mudogo mwanamuke?
B: ah ule mwanamuke alikuwa par hazard: normalement:
F: par hazard? [laughs]
F: his: his sister never sells for him/ this was just eh: an accident/
I: aah: really?
I: that is really: well: she was embarrassed: you know/
F: alisikia: mu mwanzo alisi: ya haya sana sana/
B: eheh/ mm/
F: aliwaza ah: kintu gani? bazungu banasimama/
F: njo banataka Mamba Muntu/
F: Alright. Then [pauses] ah, alright, as you said before, this is your work?
B: This is the work I do...?...
F: And how many (pictures) do you paint per day, or let’s say, per week?
B: Per week? It could be...
F: ...it differs with...
B: It differs, depending on the kind.
F: But let’s say on average?
B: The average would be twenty.
F: Twenty? Twenty paintings?
B: Twenty paintings.
F: And you sell all of them...
B: ...selling them right away. There are also some I’ll work on to meet (lit. waiting for) deadlines.
F: How many people are working for you? Like him and...
B: I only have some younger brothers of mine..
F: And this younger sibling?
L: That one...?... (his name is) Jean/
F: I see. And what about you younger sister?
B: Ah, that woman, that was by accident. Normally...
F: By accident? [laughs]
F: [in English] His sister never sells for him. This was just, eh, an accident.
I: Ah, really?
I: That is really – well, she was embarrassed, you know.
F: She was, in the beginning she was quite embarrassed.
B: Yes, mm.
F: She thought ah, what is this? Europeans stop...
F: ...because they want a Mamba Muntu.
| 8. I: [overlapping] you should: you should tell her that I
was on my way to cherche Endai/ Ndai/
F: Ndaie/ unamufahamu?
B: Munene? ni mukubwa yako mm/ minamufahamu/
F: mukubwa yako?
L: mm/ tuko naye fashi moya/
F: ile: alifanya Mamba Muntu kule ku: ni bar moya kwa: Chaussée de Kasenga?
B: eheh/ minamufahamu: kama uko naye besoin: minamuelezea mu ...?...
F: si njo wee alifanya Mamba Muntu ao vile vile?
B: eheh/ na yee iko fort sana mu kazi/
B: juu ni muntu alitumika mbele yetu/
F: [overlapping] tu: tu: tulimutaf: kama ni yee sijue mais tuliku: tuli...
B: no/ ni Ndaie Munene/
F: oui/ Ndaie Munene? [to I] Is this the: is this the?
B: njo anaandika fait par le...?... maneno: Frédéric/
I: [overlapping] non c’est un J: J/ J. Munene/
B: ah J c’est le: c’est le: Fréderic ile mm/
B: eheh: Ndai/
B: mm/ iko paka yee moya: minamufahamu/
F: una: unaf: unajua hii bar ku: Chaussée de Kasenga?
B: Chaussée de Kasenga:
F: [overlapping] kama unatoka: Camp KDL?
F: kule en face?
F: ni bar moya/
L: ...?... bar moya/
F: iko na tableaux/
B: ni tableaux ya Mamba Muntu/
F: njo: na ingine ni ya Ndai?
L: njo yee/
B: njo yee: yee mwenyewe/
L: ni yee...
I: several of them from: from ma: ma Endai...?...
F: kweli? ni yee?
B: ni yee: juu yee alianza zamani sana humu/
L: alianza zamani kazi yake/
F: anazeka sasa?
B: na alianza mu soixante-et-un/
B and L: eheh/
F: [to I] he f: he started in sixty-one/
I: Who? Endai?
F and B: mm/
F: bon/ [to I] is there tea coming?
I: I’m coming ...?...
I: [overlapping] You should tell her that I was on my way to [in French] search
for Endai. Ndai.
F: Ndaie – do you know him?
B: Munene? He is your older relative, mm. I know him.
F: The painter?
B: A painter?
F: An older relative or yours?
B: Mm. We live in the same place.
F: Is he the one who did the Mamba Muntu there in a bar on Chaussée de Kasenga?
B: Yes, I know him. If you need (to talk to) him, I’ll inform him ...?...
F: Isn’t he the one who did Mamba Muntu (paintings) and the like?
B: Yes. And he is very good (lit. strong) in (this) work.
F: I see.
B: Because he is someone who worked before us.
F: [overlapping] We were looking for him, if it is him, but we were...
B: No, that’s Ndaye Munene.
F: Yes. Ndaie Munene? [to I] Is this the, is this the (one)?
B: He signs [in French] painted by the ...?...(his Christian name is) Fréderic.
I: [overlapping] No, it’s J, J. J. Munene.
B: Ah, J, that’s him, this Fréderic, mm.
B: Yes, Ndai.
B: Mm, it’s him, the only one. I know him.
F: Do you know this bar on Chaussée de Kasenga?
B: Chaussée de Kasenga.
F: [overlapping] When you leave Camp KDL?
F: There, opposite (of the Camp)?
F: There is a bar.
L: ...?... a bar.
F: It has pictures.
B: Pictures of Mamba Muntu.
F: And some of them are by Ndai?
L: That’s him.
B: That’s him, he is the one.
L: It’s him.
I: Several of them from, from Endai...?...
F: Really? That’s him?
B: It’s him, because he began (painting) here a long time ago.
L: He began with his work long ago.
F: Is he old now?
B: He started in 61.
B and L: Yes.
F: [to I] He started in 61.
I: Who? Endai?
F and B: Mm.
F: Alright. [to I] Is there tea coming?
I: I’m coning....?....
| 9. F: ah: [pauses] kumbe wee ulianza hapa
B: [overlapping] soixante-sept oui/
F: sawa: mu: mu Kinshasa ulianza soixante-quatre ao?
B: soixante-quatre: ndiyo/
F: mm/ na: ile wakati ulianza: u: ulikuwa: kufanya: kabila gani? masortes gani? ya tableaux/
B: masortes nilikuwa kufanya: sawa ya mansula ya bantu:
F: sula ya bantu?
B: mm/ et puis ma nini: mapaysages/
B: et puis [pauses] maMamba Muntu...?...
F: Mamba Muntu ilianza na: mu mwaka gani?
B: Mamba Muntu ana...
F: ...kama a: kama wee ulifika: mu Lubumbashi: ulikuta?
B: nilikutanisha déjà vile Mamba Muntu/ mm/
F: bya mingi?
B: balikuwa kufanya bya mingi: mais bilikuwa: rarement à la mm: muzuri hapana/
B: njo sasa expérience inaanza kuingia/
B: banaanza kufanya sasa/
F: sawa vile yee? [pointing to a painting] hapana?
B: sawa vile hapana ...?...: sasa njo banaanza kufanya/
F: uli: uliisha kuona ya mingi sawa hii ya Muteba?
B: ya hivi?
F: ya hivi/ hii: hii namna?
F: mais: kule/ kule/ [points to painting]
B: ah ile niliisha kuona ya mingi/
F: uliisha kuona mingi?
B: eh/ [pauses] niliisha kuona/
F: na maillot yake hii? [laughs]
B and L: [chuckle]
F: bon/ kumbe: pa kurudia ku: ku ile: vile nilikuuliza/
F: ulikuwa na: kukuta Mamba Muntu: na tena masortes ingine/ mais: sortes gani?
B: masortes: normalement balikuwa masortes ya bantu: eh: ya bantu iko nakunwa ma: pipes: banamuke:
B: yee beko milazi/
F: oui oui/ oui oui oui/
B: eheh/ basi/
F: basi/ njo yote?
L: na ya: ma: Gécamines: ya mvita:
B: na Gécamines ba: vi: sawa...
F: ...vita ilikuwa?
B: eeh: sawa ile...
B: sawa Union Minière/
F: chui: balikuwa kufanya? sawa chui?
L: chui: chui/ [to B] ah lukola huyu/
B: ah hii: [pauses]
F: chui/ ça/ mu ki: mu tshiLuba ni nini?
B: mm/ [laughs]
F: balikuwa kufanya?
B: balikuwa kufanya mm/ paka moya moya/ hapana mingi/
F: Ah [pauses], so you started here in 60, eh...
B: [overlapping] 67, yes.
F: (That means) in Kinshasa you began in 64, right?
B: In 64, yes.
F: Mm. And at that time, when you started out, what were the kinds of paintings you did?
B: The kinds of paintings I was doing were, for instance, portraits.
B: Mm. And then, landscapes.
B: And then [pauses] Mamba Muntu...?...
F: What year did this start with Mamba Muntu (paintings).
B: Mamba Muntu, that was...
F: ...When you arrived in Lubumbashi, did you find (pictures of Mamba Muntu)?
B: I already found that there were (pictures of) Mamba Muntu around, mm.
F: A lot of them?
B: A lot were done but they were seldom up to, mm, beautiful.
F: I see.
B: Nowadays, (improvement) comes with experience.
F: I see.
B: Now they begin to do (paintings that are good)
F: Like that one? [pointing to a painting] No?
B: Not like that one, but they are getting there.
F: Have you seen many like this one by Muteba?
B: Like this?
F: Like this, in that manner?
F: But (what about the one) over there? Over there [points to painting]?
B: Ah, of that kind I have seen a lot.
F: You have seen a lot?
B: Yes, [pauses] I did.
F: This one, with her bathing suit? [laughs]
B and L: [chuckle]
F: Alright, so, to return to the question I asked you.
F: You found Mamba Muntu and other kinds (of painting). But what kind of?
B: About kinds (of paintings) – usually those were pictures of people, women smoking pipes.
B: (The smoker) would be milazi.
F: Yes, yes. Yes, yes.
B: Yes. (And) that was about it.
F: That was all?
L: And (pictures) of Gécamines during the war.
B: And (pictures) of Gécamines during...
F: ... (when) there was a war?
B: Yes, like that.
F: (What about) leopards?
B: (Pictures of ) Union Minière.
F: Leopards, did they do (paintings of) a leopard?
L: Leopards, leopards: [to B] ah: ....?...
B: Ah those. [pauses]
F: Leopards. What is it in Tshiluba?
L: In Tshiluba?
B: Mm. [laughs]
F: They did (pictures of leopards)?
B: They did, yes, but only now and then, not a lot.
| 10. F: mais ku mawazo yako: sasa: hii sortes: mwenye
kutoka ya: mwisho/
F: hii tu: mupya tu/ ni nini?
B: mu mawazo yangu? ya mupya? [pauses]
L: mapaysages tu/
B: ah: mapaysages/ juu ya paysages muntu na muntu: eeh: muntu na muntu eko nawaza...
L: [overlapping] ah iko na akili yake...?...
B: ...na akili yake tu/
F: sawa ingine ya Colonie Belge?
B: mikulo ya Colonie: hii ya...
F: ...muli: mulikuta t: wee uli: uliona kama wakati gani?
B: Colonie: pale nilifika: haikuwa zaidi/
L: haikuwa bado...?...
F: ilitoka wapi? ilitoka sasa?
L: ilitoka sasa/
B: [overlapping] ilitoka hapa sasa: njo banakuwa kufanya/
F: na bantu banauza?
L: [overlapping] eh tuko na ...?...
B: tunazaidia ku: mawazo ya u: authenticité/
F: c’est ça/
L: ...?... ku temps Belge/
F: [pointing to painting] muBelge ya kweli kule/
F: anavuta pipe yake/
F: But when you think about it, among those kinds (of painting) the last (to
F: The ones that are new, what are they?
B: When I think about it? The ones that are new? [pauses]
L: It’s landscapes.
B: Yes, landscapes. Everyone thinks about landscapes...
L: [overlapping] It’s something that appeals to imagination...?...
B: To a person’s imagination.
F: I see.
F: And what about others, (such as) Colonie Belge?
B: The organs of the Colony, those (pictures) of....
F: ...did you find them – when was it you saw them (first)?
B: The Colony -- there were not many around when I arrived (in Lubumbashi).
L: It didn’t exist yet...?...
F: Not yet?
F: Where did it come from? Is it something that came up recently?
L: It came up recently.
B: [overlapping] It came up just now, now they do (that kind of painting).
F: And people buy it?
B: (It’s) because....
L: [overlapping] Well, we have....
B: We are deluged with the ideas of authenticité.
F: That’s it.
L: ...?... during Belgian times.
F: [pointing to painting] (That’s) a real Belgian over there.
F: Smoking his pipe.
| 11. F: na: bon/ [pauses] kumbe kazi yako ni kazi ya
artiste/ mais: una: unaona namna gani? kazi ya artiste/ inaachana na makazi ingine?
B: normalement: kazi ya artiste: [pauses] inaachana na makazi ingine/ juu ya nini? mara ingine uko: nikale hivi: mais hauna hata na Likuta moya/
B: utafanya tableaux yako: unaenda kutembea: utapata Likuta/ unauza hii kintu ...?...bei/ sawa muntu iko natumika: bapayer kupata sawa dates: hivi anakalaka madates critiques/ anapashwa tu ongojea banamulipa mu nani: mu kazi/
B: njo kazi ya artiste eko muzuri kidogo juu ya:
F: mm/ kumbe ni: zaidi zaidi: ni Makuta/
F: njo yote? pa kuachana na makazi ingine?
B: mm/ différent na ...?...
F: hakuna différence ingine?
F: ni paka kazi ya: kazi ya Gécamines? na:
B: mm/ différence: juu iko inasauver sana/
F: oui mais: artiste: si njo kintu ya: ya spécial? non?
B: normalement: iko kazi muzuri/ juu ya nini? iko naleta akili tena: mu kichwa/ njo kufanya bintu bingine: muntu atawaza: nitaona kintu ya vile mais: ataona pa tableau iko naona/
F: pa tableau anaona?
F: na hii: ni: don ya kuf:
B: don ya kufanya/
F: ya kufanya?
F: sawa unafanya: sawa wee una: unaanza tableau/
F: ni sawa: ulif: unafanya tu maneno wee u: ulizobelea? ao ni kintu gani?
B: nita: normalement tableau: zaidi: yo muzuri [chuckle] juu ya: kutumika: kama unajua kudessiner/
B: kama unajua kudessiner/
B: eheh/ kama haujue dessin: difficile sana/
B: juu: ou bien dessin unajua: utadessiner muzuri/
L: mais ...?...
B: mais pa kufika mapenti:
B: njo iko dur sana/ juu ya kujua mélange: ...?... ile fashi itakuwa kintu gani ...?...juu ya kumélanger penti/ iko un peu difficile pale/
L: unaona kuwa mu: ma: muntu ingine: au lieux ya dessiner bien: penti/ sasa yee anakamata couleur bule: peinti ya noir: anapitisha sawa sawa crayon:
B: anapitisha sawa crayon/
L: maneno haina ya...?... [claps]
B: inapasha inaakala sawa corps/
L: maungu ya hii corps ya muntu hii/
F: oui oui/
F: oui oui/ minaona/ [aside] oui twiko na ingine kule/ [?aside, sound of door] twiko na ingine kule/
F: And, alright [pauses] So your work is the work of an artist. But how do
you see the work of artist? Does it differ from other kinds of work?
B: As a rule, an artist’s work [pauses] is unlike other kinds of work. Why? (Because) sometimes you may be without a penny.
B: You do your paintings, keep walking around to make a little money. You sell for a price. Whereas a person who has a job is paid on certain dates, he is stuck with critical dates and must wait until he is paid by his employer.
B: In that respect working as an artist is a little better because (he doesn’t have to wait for payday).
F: Mm. So the difference is above all the money.
F: Is that all, when it comes to what makes it different from other kinds of work?
B: Mm. Different from...
F: Is there no other difference?
F: So it’s jus like a job at Gécamines?
B: Mm. The difference is that (our work) really saves us.
F: Yes, but being an artist, is that not something special? No?
B: As a rule it is good work. Why? Because it brings imagination to your head. That way you do different things. A person may think I’ll see an object like that but he’ll see it in the picture he is looking at.
F: He sees in the picture?
F: And what about this gift to do...
B: The gift of painting (lit. doing).
F: Of painting, (what about that)?
F: For instance, when you paint, when you begin with a picture.
F: Are you doing this out of habit? Or what is it about?
B: As a rule, it is a pleasure [chuckle] to work on a painting if you know how to draw.
B: If you know how to draw.
F: How to draw?
B: Yes. I a person doesn’t know drawing, it gets very difficult.
B: You may know drawing and you’ll draw beautifully.
B: But when it come to colors.
B: That’s very hard, knowing how to mix them, how a thing will turn out when you mix colors. That’s a bit difficult.
L: You see, there may be a person who, instead of drawing properly, (uses) color. He just pick up a color, black (for instance), and uses it like a pencil.
B: He uses it like a pencil.
L: Because he doesn’t have...?...[claps]
B: [A painting] must have body.
L: The members of this human body.
F: Yes, yes.
F: Yes, yes. I see. [aside] Yes, we have other (paintings) over there. [aside, sound of door] We have others over there.
| 12. mais: ah [pauses] sawa sawa: wee: unafanya matableaux
yako/ uko na: na namna yake: yako: ya kufanya? inaachana na: na:
L: na bengine/
F: baartistes ingine/
F: mais: namna gani?
B: dessin/ des: eh: njo iko nafanya ile normalement/
F: mi minafanyaka dessin/
L: [overlapping] hapana: namna ya penti/
B: na penti: tutafanya dessin/ sawa mafashi ya pa mikono: ni vile utaona sawa pale: [pointing to a painting of his]
B: unaona mukono iko inaonekana: bien/
B: sawa huyu: iko nafanya mikono yake iko muzuri/
B: sawa mwengine utaona mukono:
B: inakuwa sawa: muti moya: hautaona sawa formation ya muntu hapana/
B: na bilole utaona ina: inaachana/ hatafwata normalement: vile corps ya muntu iko hapa/
B: njo pale ile différent ...?.../
F: kumbe: ni zaidi zaidi ni: ni: ni dessin/
B: dessin njo iko ...?...
F: ni kintu...
F: ...moja mwenye kuachana:
B: mm/ mawazo/
F: kwa kila: artiste/
B: eh/ juu: sawa hii tu écriture...
F: tena kila...?...
B: sawa écriture/
L: sawa sema tu namna: écriture/
B: [overlapping] écriture/ na:
L: njo kusema...
B: njo asema huyu ni écriture ingine: huyu écriture ingine/ bon/ mara ingine batafanya kintu moya mais itaachana juu ya:
F: kiihsa mu matableaux yako/
F: sawa vile: kama mwee munatumika: pamoya/
F: muna: muna: munatumika namna gani? wee unaanza dessin? ao?
B: mi minaanza dessin: mi minabapatia: bo banaweka penti/ kama habajue fashi: minabaonyesha pale/
F: mm/ so: kumbe bo bana: bana: banatia nani: penti?
B: na banatia penti: mafashi ingine: iko: teke teke: fashi iko difficile: na mi minafanya/
F: na unafa: munafanyaka pe: paka hii masortes sawa ulichagula?
B: kuwa masortes mingi ya kufanya/
F: na mingi ingine?
B: na ingine naye/
F: sawa vile...
F: oui/ mais sawa: sawa vile...
B: surtout paka masortes mingi utach: chana: sawa ya mapaysages: njo...
L: ...?... ya paysages ya bandeke inyewe...
B: ...na ndeke:
L: tout ça: ma:
B: sawa hivi: [points to painting]
L: na ndeke gani/
F: kumbe mu pa: mu mapaysages...?...
B: ...ya bantu ya: buloko: sawa mu hivi/
B: na hii baba anamubamba: iko namupiga: vile vile:
B: njo pale tuna...
I: [serving tea] il faut faire attention parce que nou n’avons pas les tasses/
B: ah merci/
I: et ça fait: vraiment chaud/
F: bale bagages: oui: i: ile bagage yetu bado kufika/
F: mara: mara ingine ilipotea/
B: inafika tu mashiku kidogo/
F: hahah/ tuliongojea sawa mwezi: miezi tatu sasa/
But, ah, [pauses] when you paint your pictures do you have your own way of
doing this, one that differs from that...
L: ...of others.
F: Of other artists?
F: But how?
B: (It’s) the drawing, the way I usually do it.
F: The drawing?
F: Even I draw all the time.
L: [overlapping] No, the way (you use) color.
B: With color we’ll make a drawing. For instance, when it comes to (painting) arms, as you’ll see there. [pointing to a painting of his]
B: You see, the arm turned out well.
B: Like this (painter), he paints his arms accurately.
B: With another one you are going to arms...
B: ... that are like a piece of wood. You won’t recognize a human shape.
B: And you’ll see fingers that are not like (like they should be). (Such a painter) will not follow the shape of a human body.
B: That’s where the difference lies...?...
F: So, above all it’s the drawing.
B: It’s the drawing that is ...?...
F: It’s the thing ...
F: ...the one that makes the difference.
B: Mm. The idea.
F: For every artist.
B: Yes. Because it is like his handwriting.
F: Also every...?...
B: Like handwriting.
L: It’s like saying that the way (he paints) (is his) handwriting.
B: [overlapping] Handwriting, and...
L: In other words...
B: Every (painter) has a distinctive handwriting. They may paint the same object but it will come out different because of that.
F: Then, in your paintings.
F: For instance, when you (two) work together.
F: How do you work? You (Beya) start with a drawing, or?
B: I start with a drawing which I give to them and they put on the colors. If they don’t know (what to do) in some place, I show them.
B: And they do it.
F: Mm. So, they put on the colors?
B: And they put on the colors. In some places that are subtle or difficult I do it.
F: I see.
F: And you people only do the kinds (of paintings) you chose (to bring along)?
B: There are lots of kinds (we) do.
F: Many other kinds?
B: Other kinds, too.
F: For instance.
F: Yes, but for instance.
B: Above all there are many kinds where you will vary, like with landscapes, there are...
L: ...?... there are landscapes with birds in them...
B: ...with birds.
L: All that...
B: Like (in) this one. [points to painting]
L: With birds – whatever (they are called).
F: So, in landscapes ...?...
B: ...(and others) with people in prison, like in this one. [points to a painting].
B: And this baba who has been arrested and is being beaten, things like that.
B: That’s where we (vary).
I: [serving tea, in French] You must be careful because we don’t have cups.
B: Ah, thanks.
I: It’s really hot.
F: Yes, our luggage hasn’t arrived yet.
F: Maybe it got lost.
B: It’s going to come in a few days.
F: Well, we have been waiting like for three months by now.
B: I see.
| 13. F: eyo/ kumbe: mais: [pauses] sawa s: kila juma: mm?
munaanza/ munaanza na kazi: na mu: muko munawaza:
F: bon/ hii juma inafaa kufanya:
B: kintu fulani/
F: ya: ya fimbo:
F: inafaa kufanya: inne: ao tano/ ya: mashua: kufanya/
B: ile yote tunafanya suivant commande ya: baclients: ...?...
F: kumbe: mwanzo munapita ku mu:
B: pale tuko tunaazisha muntu na muntu iko naomba kintu yee ana:
F: sur commande/
B: anafanya commande: ça: commande tunafanya: tunamuletea/
F: eyo/ mm/ mm/ mm/ eh: [to I] any other question?
I: I don’t know much what you asked him/
F: mm/ ah: well I asked him about: about his:
I: [to B] très chaud/
B: ah c’est bien/
I: ....?... you can stop there/
F: mm/ simama/ [recording interruped]
F: I see. So then, but [pauses] like every week, right? You go to work, you
F: ... what needs to be done that week.
B: What (needs to done).
F: (Paintings) of the Whip.
F: Four or five should be done, (and others) of The Train.
B: All that we do depending on orders from customers...?....
F: So, first you go around in...
B: We sell to each customer individually whatever he asks for.
F: (Selling) on order.
F: He orders (a painting), we do it and deliver it to him.
F: I see. Mm. Mm. Mm. Eh [to I, in English] Any other question?
I: I don’t know much what you asked him.
F: Mm. Ah, well, I asked him about this...
I: [to B] (It’s) very hot.
B: Ah, it’s alright.
I: ...?... you can stop there.
F: Mm. (Let’s) stop. [recording interrupted]
| 14. bon/ kumbe kintu ingine ya kuuliza/
F: sawa: kazi: ya nani:
B: ya artiste/
F: sasa: bantu bengine bana: banakuona:
F: namna gani? bale bantu ya: sijue kama ile fashi muli:
F: ...mulika: munaikala kule/
B: sawa humu mwetu: mentalité yetu ya baZairois: bengine bale banafunza: beko naona banajua bitu ya hii kazi: ge: iko kazi iko muzuri/
B: sawa bengine ya bale habanfunze: hajue hata kintu:
B: beko naona sawa unafanya kazi moya ya:
L: ya bumbafu/
B: [overlapping] bumbafu haina nani: na ...?...: ndiyo/
F: kumbe mana: mara ingine banacha...
B: ...banapenda paka utumike: paka utumike muzuri/
F: chambula namna gani? ces baartistes ...
L: ... banaona mumbafu yee/
B: ah: hatumike hapana/
L: ...?... nani: mulofwa/
F: sawa vile wanasema?
Alright. Then there is another question.
F: About the work of...
B: ... an artists.
F: Nowadays, other people look at you...
F: ...how? The people, I don’t know, like in that place....
F: ...where you live.
B: It’s like this here in our country, the mentality of the Zairians – those with an education who know about this work, for them it is good work.
B: Whereas others who are not educated know nothing about it.
B: In their eyes you are doing a kind of work that...
L: ...is stupid.
B: [overlapping]. Stupid. Without (value)...?.., yes.
F: So, sometimes they (mock you)...
B: ... they just want you to have a regular job.
F: How do they mock you? Those artists are....
L: ... they consider him stupid.
B: Ah, someone who is unemployed.
L: ...?... a kind of bum.
F: A bum?
F: That’s how they talk?
| 15. F: na: [pauses] aah: uko na: bengine ku: ya ku:
kufwata: ya: kufunda: kwako?
F: bengine be: batoto bengine?
B: batoto bengine?
F: ya kufunda...
B: ...kufunda ya masomo?
F: non: kufunda/ kupenta/
B: kupenta? kwangu?
B: ah: paka haba tu/
F: ...?...njo mbili/ na: muko munakutana mara ingine na artistes ingine?
B: sawa artiste tu naye: normalement: tuko naye/ tuko nacollaborer naye sana/ paka Munene/
L: mm/ Ndaie/
B: mm/ kunaisha/
F: Munene ni: ni: ni:
B: nduku yangu/
F: nduku yako/
B: bibi yangu ni: muloko yake/ beaufrère yangu/
F: aah bon/
F: bibi yako ni mudoko...
L: ...ni muloko yee/
B: [overlapping] ya yee/
F: eyo/ Munene? Ndai?
F: na yee: ah: kumbe munatumikaka pamoya? non/
B: kama niko na kazi inanipita: mitaenda kumuuliza/
B: mm: juu ya nimupatie yake/ juu ni muntu aliisha kutumika zamani/
F: sasa: sasa anatumika kazi gani?
B: anatumika kazi yake...?...
L: pake hii kazi/
B: maneno eko na permis de [claps] conduire: eko chauffeur [claps]: tout ça: mais: anaacha vile/ yee hapana kutumika: iko anatumika paka pale buartiste/
F: iko na mwaka ngapi?
B: sasa: mm: depuis soixante-et-un kwanza...
B: eh mm/
F: bon/ tutakutana naye eh? minapenda sana tena ku eh: kutana naye/
B: mm/ mitamulezea/
F: kusumbulia naye: na:
F: kuona ma: matableaux yake vile vile/
F: Now, [pauses]let’s see, do you have others who follow you, who learn from
F: Others, I mean, other youngsters?
B: Other youngsters?
F: Who are learning...
B:...learning at school?
F: No, learning to paint.
B: To paint? With me?
B: With me?
B: Ah, only those (I mentioned).
F: ...?... the two of them. And do you sometimes get together with other artists?
B: The only artist with whom we are together regularly and collaborate a lot is Munene.
L: Mm. Ndaie/
B: Mm. That’s all.
F: Munene, he is...
B: ... a relative of mine.
F: A relative of yours.
B: My wife is his younger sister, (so he is) my brother-in-law.
F: I see, alright.
F: Your wife a younger....
L: ... a younger sister of his.
B: [overlapping] Of his.
F: I see. Munene? Ndai?
F: And with him you usually work together? No.
B: When I have too much work I’ll go and ask him.
B: Whether I can give him some, because he is someone who has been working for a long time.
B: (He has) experience.
F: What kind of work does he do nowadays?
B: He does his work...?...
L: Just this kind of work.
B: He has a driver’s license [claps] and is a chauffeur [claps], all that, but he gave that up and does not have a job. He only works as an artist.
F: For how many years?
B: Let’s see, he started in 61.
B: Yes, mm.
F: Alright, we’ll meet him, right? I really would like to meet him.
B: Mm, I’ll tell him about it.
F: And chat with him.
L: Lets go (and meet him).
F: And also to see his paintings.
| 16. I: Johannes I have an important question/ ehm: do the
people who buy his paintings... [digitalized recording interrupted]
F: Madame anauliza: kama bantu banauzisha: banauza: tableaux: banaangaria ji: jina ya artiste? ao: banajua jina ya artistes ao bana: banaangria paka tableau bule?
B: bale tu: huyu iko na akili: njo ataangaria ni muntu fulani: njo anafanya ile kintu/ sawa bengine anauza tu: iko anapenda tu madessins tu/
B: hatas’occuper juu ya: ya jina/
F: ya jina ya artiste?
L: mais muntu iko: muntu iko napenser:
B: voilà pale/
L: asema ni kintu gani/ anapasha kuangaria jina: njo kusema: ni artiste fulani aliisha hii kintu hii/
F: mm/ sasa: ah: munafahamu ma: maartistes ingine?
F: mwenye kutumika hapa?
B: artiste mwengine? paka kama unayua yee: iko ni muntu wa zamani atafanya: vile vile bekoako/ sawa mu Ruashi bengine bekoamo: mi bado ...?.../ yee njo naliisha kufahamu/
F: hau: haufahamu ingine?
B: minafamu mwengine eko...
F: ...sawa nani?
B: ba tu Nkulu: baNkulu haba njo...?...
F: Nkulu wa Nkulu?
B and L: ehe/
F: Nkulu wa Nkulu na Kapenda/
L: na Kapenda tena/
F: njo yote?
B: ile wa Ngoi: njo minafahamu/
F: ingene bado: wee bado kuona?
L: aha: hapana/
B: juu bengine bamingi minafahamu mais: bintu yake habina: muzuri zaidi hapana/ beko nafanya juu ya profiter/ iko...
F: sawa [to I] bring one of Tshibumba’s...
F: ...paintings/ would you?
I: vous connaissez Tshibumbu?
I: Tshibumbu de Kipushi?
B: Kipushi: non/
F: and: and bring his Mamba Muntu for their explanation/ na:
I: whose Mamba Muntu? oh: okay/
F: na: tena: sawa hata zamani balikuwa artistes: ya: hapa: ya kweli/ ku Lubumbashi/
B: mm/ Lubumbashi/
F: ah? baZairois/ balifundisha tena mu Académie...
B: ...hata Kinsasa: tu miodèles yote inatoka paka huku/
F: una: unajua majina yabo? ni nani? ule artistes ya:
B: ule alikuwa hapa ya zamani?
B: ah: na: jina hapana/
F: bana: banabafahamu fasi yote: hata Belgique: Amerique: yote/ fasi yote/
B: ile njo mi bado kufahamu/
F: Pilipili: bado ku:
F: na Mwenze?
B: Mwenze peut-être: mu kisomo mu vile: mu journal Afrique Chrétienne/
B: njo nilisoma: niliona:
F: Mwenze/ [pointing to painting] njo Mwenze: kule: kama ni: hii nyama ya pori/
F: njo Mwenze/
B: nilisoma tu sawa mais: mi bado kumu: kumuona: na macho/
F: bengine hau: haufahamu?
F: sawa Berquin? Che: frères Chenge?
[recording briefly interrupted]
I: Johannes, I have an important question. Ehm, do the people who buy his
paintings... [digitalized recording interrupted]
F: Madame asks whether people you sell, rather, who buy paintings look at the name of the artist? Do they know the names of artists or do they only look at the painting?
B: They just – an intelligent person will look for the person who did (the painting).
Others just buy it simply because he likes the appearance.
B: He is not going to bother with the name.
F: With the artist’s name?
L: But a thinking person...
B: There you are.
L: ...will ask what this thing is. He is bound to look at the name, telling him who the artist was who produced this thing.
F: Mm. Now, do you know other artists...
F: ...who work here.
B: Another artist? Only if know him (personally) – an old timer who’ll paint. There are those. For instance, in Ruashi, there are some (but) I haven’t (met them) yet. (The one I mentioned) I got to know.
F: (And) you don’t know others?
B: I do know others, there is...
F: Who, for instance?
B: The likes of Nkulu ba Nkulu, they...?...
F: Nkulu wa Nkulu?
B and L: Yes.
F: Nkulu wa Nkulu and Kapenda.
L: And Kapenda also.
F: Those are all?
L: There is....
B: This Ngoi, he is one I know.
F: Others you haven’t seen yet?
L: Well, no.
B: Because there are many others whom I know but their stuff is not very good. They paint to make profit. This is....
F: For instance[to I] -- bring one of Tshibumba’s...
F: ...paintings, would you?
I: [in French] You know Tshibumbu [sic]?
I: Tshibumbu, of Kipushi.
B: Kipushi, no.
F: And, and bring this Mamba Muntu for their explanation. And...
I: Whose Mamba Muntu? Oh, okay.
F: And then, in the past there were some true artists here, in Lubumbashi.
B: Mm. Lubumbashi.
F: Ah? Zairians. They also taught at the Academy.
B: Even in Kinshasa, (but) all the exemplary work originated here.
F: Do you know their names? Who were they, those artists who...
B: ...who were here long ago?
B: Ah, the names I don’t know.
F: They are known everywhere. Even in Belgium, America, everywhere.
B: That I didn’t know yet.
F: Not yet?
F: (You haven’t heard of) Pilipili?
F: And Mwenze.
B: Mwenze, perhaps. From reading (about him) in the journal Afrique Chrétienne.
F: I see.
B: That’s where I read (about him) and saw...
F: Mwenze [pointing to a painting on the wall], there, that’s a Mwenze, this (scene with) animals in the bush.
B: That one?
F: That’s Mwenze.
B: I just read (about him) but, so far, I have not actually seen him.
F: Others you don’t know?
F: Like Berquin, the brothers Chenge? 
B: Not so far.
[recording briefly interrupted]
| 17. unaona hii: tableau: ya: Tshibumba?
F: unawaza namna gani? ao unaona namna gani?
B: juu ya mawazo yangu: anatumika muzuri/
B: mais: juu ya sula: anakosa/ haitoshe sula zaidi hapana/
F: ya sula anakosa?
F: namna gani?
B: njo sula ya: nani: ya Patrice:
B: kama même tunataya: tunas: minakufanya ...?...normalement: anapima: mais: haitoke zaidi hapana/ sula...
F: haitoke zaidi?
B: eheh/ sula yake/
F: ah bon?
F: ah bon/
L: kutosha kutosha ma..?...haitoke zaidi hapana/
B: haitoke zaidi tu hapana/
F: the portrait of Lumumba is not very good/
F: says he can do it better/
I: yea: good: well ask him for one/
You see this painting Tshibumba?
F: How do you think about it. What is your view of it?
B: As regards my thoughts – he works well.
F: He works....
B: However, he falls short when it comes to the portrait. He3 doesn’t bring out the face well.
F: He fall short with the portrait?
F: How so?
B: It is a portrait of Patrice (Lumumba).
B: We sort of recognize him, we – I can do one for you. (One can see that) he tries, but it doesn’t really come out, the face...
F: It doesn’t really come out?
B: No, his face.
L: Really bringing out the...?...it doesn’t really come out well.
B: It doesn’t really come out well.
F: The portrait of Lumumba is not very good.
F: Says he can do it better.
I: Yea, good, well, ask him for one.
| 18. F: bon/ sasa: kama tuko na kintu ingine ya kuuliza
tutauliza/ mais sasa tunaanza na maexplications:
F: ya: ya matableaux/ yote/ acha [goes to pick up paintings]: tuanze kwanza na: Mamba Muntu/
[brief exchange between F and I, largely incomprehensible because of noise caused moving paintings]
F: sasa: mwanzo:
F: maana yake ya Mamba Muntu ni nini? hii arisi yake/
B: mwanzo yake?
F: hii arisi yake ya: mufano yake sawa...
L: gisi yake: arishi yake shia...?.../
L: njo ngisi asema alianza juu ya namna na hivi ya Mamba Muntu/ sema kwanza kumuracconter namna: diukuyo: histoire/
F: histoire yake/
F: [chuckles] ni nini?
B: histoire yake vile alibamba muntu/ huyu muntu alienda kunawa mu mayi/
B: pale alienda juu ya kunawa: njo kusema mu mayi sasa: na ile mayi [pauses]: anaanza kunawa: anaanza kunawa: alikuwa muntu iko anatafuta nyama/ pale uko unatafuta nyama: pale unanawa/ mara moya: nani: anaona mayi: inaanza ku:
F: [overlapping] kuzunguluka/
B: kuzunguluka fashi moya/
B: yee aliwaza mara ingine ni samaki moya...?...[not audible because of I coughing] iko na: eeh: kufanya bintu ya vile/ mara moya anaaona: Mamba Muntu anatoka/ pale anatoka nayee sawa iko muntu iko na mapuissances ingine: hana na moyen hata yee: na moyen ya kukimbia: iende hapana/ mara moya: anamubamba/ pale anamubamba nayee anawaza kama minabeba kisu yangu hivi mitamutwanga:
B: peut-être mitasobe [sauver]/
B: pale anapima mais: ah...?...
B: eh/ mm: juu ni muntu ya ...?...
F: ...na hii: ki:
L: damu ?due...
L: pale ingine hapa/
F: juu ya:
B: [in Luba?] akaninge alimufun:
L: alimufinyanga na bilole ya inje ...?...luloko/
F: eyo/ bon/ na: njo yote? njo histoire yote?
L: njo histoire yote/
F: Alright. If there is something else to ask we’ll ask but right now we
begin with the explanations...
F: ...of all the paintings (you brought along). Wait [goes to pick up paintings]. Let’s start first with Mamba Muntu.
[brief exchange between F and I, largely incomprehensible because of noise caused moving paintings]
F: Now, first.
F: What is the signification of Mamba Muntu, her story?
B: Her beginning?
F: Her story, what she is about...
L: Her characteristics, her story...?...
L: Her characteristics, that is to say, the original signification of Mamba Muntu. First of all, there is the story that is told about her.
F: Her history.
F: [chuckles] What is it?
B: It’s the history of her getting hold of a human being. The person went to bathe in (a body of) water.
F: I see.
B: So he went to take a swim in some water and he swam around looking for an animal (to catch). One time (it happened that) he saw that the water beginning to...
L: To churn.
F: [overlapping] To churn.
B: It was churning in one place.
B: He thought, perhaps it is a fish...?... [not audible because of I coughing] doing something like that. Suddenly he sees Mamba Muntu coming to the surface. She comes up – she is someone who has extraordinary powers and there is no way to get away. Immediately, she grabs him. As soon as she gets hold of him the man thinks, I have my knife with me and I am going to stab her.
B: Maybe, I’ll get away (from her).
F: I see.
B: So he tried but, ah...?...
F: He failed?
B: Yes. Mm. Because she is a person who...
F: ...and there is this (knife).
L: Blood ...?...
F: Blood ...?...
L: There is some, right here.
B: [in Luba?] ...?...she was choking him with her fingers around his throat.
F: I see. Alright. And that is all? That’s the whole story?
L: That’s the whole story.
| 19. F: mais bantu banawaza nini yuu ya Mamba Muntu?
banauza: banauza: Mamba Muntu juu ya nini?
B: beko nauza juu: bengine: baliisha kumuona: mu macho/
B: bengine: bo bado kumu: ona: banasikiaka paka kusikia/
L: histoire tu ...?...mais yee bado kuona/
B: beko banauza juu ya ku: kuangaria/ njo mara ingine sawa batoto: haba: beko napenda kucheza mu:
B and L: mu mayi/
B: sawa mwingine atauza ya hivi: juu ya eko mu nyumba kama mutoto anaanga: ah/ mu mayi: iko mubaya juu Mamba Muntu atabamba/
F: ah pa: pa: kukumbusha:
B: kukumbusha batoto juu ya kuba...?...
L: par example sasa mu cinquante: ngambo Katuba: ile Kafubu ile:
L: ekoamo mais habayaona hapana/ eko nabamba tu batoto...?... mingi sana/
B: alafu pecheurs ingine: balimuona kama mara tatu/
F: mara tatu?
L: mara tatu:
B: paka pecheurs paka mule...?.../
F: ile: Mamba Muntu: si njo: mara ingine banasema: ah: ataweza kuleta mali?
B: kweli: kama analeta mali:
L: [overlapping] kama u...
L: par example sawa: sawa hivi/ unaenda kutembea mu mayi: fashi ya: fleuve eh? unaenda kutembea juu sawa saa ingine mi nikuwa na Mamba Muntu hapana/
L: na wee: wee unasema anaikala mu mayi/ asema...?...nayee: iko nanawa ni hii mayi/ sasa kama ashituka...?... [passage incomprehensible] mu bord ya nani:
B: anakuona lakini/ yee...?....
L: [overlapping] mais kama ni yee anakuona atakimbia ...?...
B: ...anaacha huku kintu yake moya: pale:
L: na wee kama unabeba sasa: unasikilizana naye sasa/
F: kintu gani? ya...
L: ... saa...
B: sawa mupete yake: sawa chaîne: sawa:
L: sawa sawa montre yake ile:
B: ou bien nywele yake moya...
B: ...inabakia: unabeba:
B: unaenda nayo/ sasa bushiku yee njo atakufwata ...?...mu:
F: mu ndoto/
B: mu ndoto/
L: [overlapping] ndoto/
B: pale atafika unamurudisha kintu yake/ unaweka mu ku: na ma...?...asema bon: unipatie: kintu fulani/ pale nayee: anakupatia ile kintu na wee/ unarudisha...?...
B: kama unapenda mali: unakuwa muntu ya mali/
F: But what do people think about Mamba Muntu? Why do they buy (pictures of)
B: They buy them because there are some who have seen her with their own eyes.
B: Others haven’t seen her, they only heard about her.
L: Just the story...?...but he hasn’t seen her.
B: They buy (her picture) as something to look at. For instance, children sometimes like to play in...
B and L: ...the water.
B: Someone may buy (the picture) because, at home, he may tell his child, ah, this is bad because Mamba Muntu will get you.
F: Ah, to remind...
B: To remind the children of ...?...
L: For example, not long ago in the fifties, it happened near Katuba township. There is this Kafubu river.
F: The Kafubu.
L: Shet was there but they hadn’t seen he yet.. (That is where) she snatched children...?... lots of them.
B: But certain fishermen saw her three times.
F: Three times?
L: Three times.
B: Just fishermen there in...?...
F: About this Mamba Muntu, is it not said sometimes, ah, that she may make you rich?
B: True, (they say) she brings wealth.
L: [overlapping] If you...
L: For example, like this. You take a walk near water, a place where there is a river, right? You take a walk without expecting, some time I meet Mamba Muntu.
L: Still, you keep telling yourself, she lives in the water, and ...?...she swims in this water. Then suddenly, surprise...?... [passage incomprehensible] (she is resting) on the shore of this....
B: But she sees you. She...?...
L: [overlapping] But if she sees you she’ll
B: ...leaving behind something that belongs to her.
L: And if you take it away that is when you come to an understanding with her.
F: What kind of thing.
L: ... a watch...
B: Like her necklace, like a chain, like...
L: Like this watch of hers...
B: Or a lock of her hair.
L: Her hair...
L: ...that is left behind. You take it.
B: You go away with it. Now, at night she is going to follow you ...?...in...
F: ...in a dream.
B: In a dream.
L: [overlapping] A dream.
B: When she comes (to you) you give her back the thing that is hers. You put it in...?...saying, alright, give me something. That is when she gives you something to keep. You give back...?...
B: If you like wealth you are going to be a rich man.
| 20. F: na utaweza kuchunga hii mali? pasipo conditions:
B: ile mali utachunga: kweli/ juu ni: mambo: unaona ni bintu inakuwa...?...
F: ...hauwezi ku: kupotea tena?
L: itapotea ...?...inakuwa sawa unatumika satan sasa/
B: eh unatumika satan/
L: ni kusema unatumika satan/
B: hauna tena mu njia ya: [claps] mambo ya Mungu hapana/
F: utapotea namna gani? mi sisikie vizuri/ pa kupotea ni...
B: ...pale: ni kusema: ni hivi/
B: pale utab: utapata ile mali: unakuwa muntu: mi: ya mali mingi/
B: hautawaza tena: Mungu ekowako: ni mu: niende kumuombe juu: anisaidie hivi hivi hapana/
B: ile sasa: unaanza kuwaza juu ya ma: mali yako/
B: mais mwenzako ikoako iko anateswa: hautamu: musaidia tena/
F: Ah bon/
B: juu ya nini?
F: ah bon/
L: ni sawa kama...
F: [to B] wee: wee unafwata dini?
F: uko unafwata dini?
L: eh fashi unafwata...?...
B: mm/ methodiste/
F: ça veut dire ulizala: ulizaliwa?
B: nilizaliwa juu masomo ilianza paka mu...
F: na unafwata sasa?
B: na sasa niko nafwata tu/
F: mm/ bon/
I: Johannes: is this more important for the protestants?
F: no no/ no: no/ mm/
F: And will you be able to keep that wealth, without conditions, without....
B: You’ll keep that wealth, true. Because, you see, those are things that are ...?...
F: ...can’t you lose again?
B: It will get lost.
L: It will get lost...?...(because) what it is, you now are doing the work of Satan.
B: Yes, you do the work of Satan.
L: It means you are putting Satan to work.
B: You are no longer on the road of [claps] God’s concerns.
F: How are you going to lose it? I really don’t understand this. To lose it is...
B: ...it’s like this.
B: When you get this wealth you become a person of great wealth.
B: You are no longer going to think, God exists, I should pray to him so he may help me, things like that.
B: Now you begin to think (about nothing but) your wealth.
B: But you are not going to help you neighbor who is suffering.
F: I see.
B: Why would you do that?
F: I see.
L: It’s like when ...
F: [to B] Are you religious?
F: Are you religious?
L: Yes, the place where you worship...?...
B: I am a Protestant.
F: A Protestant?
F: A Methodist?
B: Mm. A Methodists.
F: That means you were born (as a Methodist)?
B: I was born – it was because this started only...
B: ... in school.
F: I see.
F: And you are practicing now.
B: Up to this day I have been practicing.
F: Mm. Alright.
I: Johannes, is this more important for the Protestants?
F: No no. No no, mm.
| 21. ahm: kiisha/
F: hii maana yake ya:
B: ya nyoka?
F: ya nyoka/
B: nyoka ile iko sawa: nguvu yake/ hii: iko anamupatia nguvu...?.../
F: nyoka anamupatia nguvu ya: kwa...
B: ...njo: kwa: njo iko sawa: kintu yake anaweka roho: anatembea naye mashiku yote/
F: [pauses] kupata: ni nguvu nani?
L: njo kusema iko ta: sawa soldat wa kisamu: kazi ni inamuchunga/
B: [overlapping]...kazi ya ile guarde ah: yee iko anamuchunga/
F: guarde yake?
B: eheh/ njo kusema: pa fashi kama anataka kupita: mbele nyoka anapita/ njo yee anakuya ku...
F: na yee anaikala paka tu peke yake? pasipo bwana: ao kintu gani?
B: bwana: bekoamo/ tuliisha kusiikia mais: shee bado kuona ma: foto yabo: ou bien: nini:
F: bwana: sawa vile...
B: ...bwana/ tutasema bekoamo/ beko mu ma...
B: ...sousterrains: mu mamines: njo iko fashi wa bwana ekoamo/ bale banaombaka bantu: ya toka: usine ina: pomoka: nini? mayi mine inapomoka/
B: bantu banakufa: mayi inaua bantu: njo tunasema ni...
L: ...yee humu...
B: asema ni bwana...
L: njo bwana ni ...?..kule/
B: [overlapping] ...?...
L: njo fashi bwana banaikalia/
F: ...there is the significance of...
B: The snake?
F: Of the snake.
B: The snake is something like her strength, it gives her strength...?...
F: The snake gives her the strength to...
B: ...it belongs to her, it is something she took into her soul and now she always moves in its company.
F: [pauses] Getting what kind of strength?
L: Let’s say (the snake) is like a soldier on guard, its duty is to protect her.
B: [overlapping]...guard duty, yes, it protects her.
F: (The snake is) her guard?
B: Yes. Wherever she wants to go, the snake goes there first. Then she follows...
F: And does she live all by herself? Without a husband or whatever?
B: There are husbands. We heard about them but, so far, we haven’t seen pictures of them or...
F: A husband like...
B: ...a husband. Let’s just say they exist. They live in...
B: ... the underground, in the mines, that’s were that husbands are. They are the ones people pray to, to get out of the shaft when it caves in or when it is flooded.
F: I see.
B: (It happens that) people die, that the water kills them, that is when we say...
L: ...(the husband) is there...
B: It is the husband...
L: It’s the husband who is...?...there.
L: That is the place where the husbands live.
| 22. F: eko na jina yake?
B: ah iko na jina yake: iko namuita nani? nani? [pauses] [to L in tshiLuba] ...?...ni ...
B: mm/ njo bwana/
F: mu: mu: mu:
B: mu bulongo/ ule eko analeta ma...?...
F: ...mu lugha gani? sasa mulisemaka lugha gani? tshiLuba?
B and L: tshiLuba/
F: sawa mu: mu tshiLuba muna: munamutaya:
B and L: pumina/
F: mwenye ku: kuikala ku:
L: chini ya bulongo/
B: chini ya bulongo/
F: mais: sula yake ni namna gani?
B: sula yake iko tu muntu: mais ku mikolo eko sawa nyama/
F: muntu mweusi?
F: muzungu vile vile?
B: eheh/ mais: mikolo iko sawa nyama/
L: ni sawa nyama/
F: nyama ao sawa: sawa...?...
L: ni nyama ...?...tu/
B: [overlapping] ni nyama tu/
L: mm/ na hii muntu/
B: [overlapping] muntu/
F: sawa nyama ya pori?
B: eheh/ sawa: nyama iko [points out] vile: yee ku mikulo ile ya nyama:
B: na ...?...muntu/
F: Does (the husband) have a name?
B: Yes, his name is, what is he called again? [to L in Tshiluba] ...?...it is...
B: Mm. He is the husband.
F: In, in, in...
B: In the ground. He is the one who brings...?...
F: ...in what language? What was the language you just spoke? Tshiluba?
B and L: Tshiluba.
F: So, in Tshiluba you call him...
B and L: Pumina.
F: Living in...
L: Deep down in the ground.
B: Deep down in the ground.
F: But, what does his face look like?
B: In his face he is just like a human being, but his body (lit. his limbs) is like that of an animal.
F: (Does he have the face) of a black person?
L: (He is) white.
F: A European, like (Mamba Muntu)?
B: Yes. But his body is like that of an animal.
L: An animal, like...
B: [overlapping] Just like an animal.
F: An animal.
L: Mm, (with a face) like a human being.
F: Like and animal from the bush?
B: Yes, like that animal there [points out], he has the limbs of an animal.
B: And ...?... (the face) of a human being.
| 23. F: sababu gani Mamba Muntu inaoka: anaonekana tu: mm:
L: si njo a...
B: ...ni kusema ni histoire moya: tangu tunaingia hata mu ma: Sainte Bible: iko mahistoires ya zamani/
B: juu bale balisoma maBibles: pengine bana..?...: pale Mungu alicréer/ alifanya: nini: bulongo:
B: kulikuwa baanje bengine balifanya mubaya kule: yulu kule/ pale baanje bale balifanya mubaya:
F: mi sisikie/
L: sema bali...
B: sema Saints/
L: mm/ banaandika...
F: ah baAnges?
F: baAnges: bamalaika?
B and L: bamalaika/
B: bale balifanya mubaya: balikuwa kama ni dix million hivi: tuli: kuwa kuj: kujua mu histoires/
B: sasa pale Mungu alibafukisha: na bo balikosa fashi ya kuikala/ déjà Mungu: aliisha kucréer ile: terre yetu hii/
B: pale na bo banakosa fashi ya kuikala: njo bana:
B: banachuka/ banakuya humu/ sawa banamuke banaenda mu mayi: banaume banaende mu:
B: mu bulongo/
B: mm/ ni kusema...
F: sawa vile banaikala?
F: kumbe: zamani iliku: sawa ilikuwa: malaika?
B: zamani bamalaika mm/
F: sasa ni:
B: banakuwa basatani/
F: ni mu: ni muzimu sawa kule ku mugini: sawa banasadiki kule?
B: ya: ku mukini: bekoamo/
F: kumbe Mamba Muntu ni muzimu?
L: [pauses] eko tu nayee ni muntu...?...
B: [overlapping] ...?...muntu tu/
F: eko muntu?
B and L: mm/
F: hana muzimu?
L: iko tu ...?... mais: iko tu kati kati tu/ [chuckles]
F: kati kati?
L: heehe/ beko banasema ni muzimu: bengine banasema ah: ni homme/
F: mais: mi bad:
B: ah tu ...?...
F: sisikie: sisikie tena:
B: [overlapping] pa kuangaria muzuri:
F: sisikie tena: sababu ya nini: inaonekana sawa muzungu?
B: [pauses] juu ya kuonekana sawa muzungu: sema tu juu: banawaza: juu pale Mungu alifanya: bulongo: ilikuwa nini: ilikuwa ngozi:
B: mweupe eeh/
F: ya: ya: ya bote?
B: ya: [chuckles] ouais ouais/ yabo ya beupe/ sasa njo tuko naona: bantu paka vile/ sawa she bantu beushi hatutajua kama tulikuya ...?... ya wapi/ ngozi ilikuwa kuanga ile: moya ile/
F: Why is it that Mamba Muntu looks European?
L: Isn’t that...
B: It has to do with a certain story from the time we took up (lit. entered) the Holy Bible where there are stories of times long ago.
B: Those who read their Bibles, perhaps they...?...at the time when God created, when he made the earth.
B: There were some baanje who did something wrong up there (in heaven). So when those baanje did some wrong...
F: I don’t understand.
L: Let’s say they...
B: Let’s say, Saints.
L: Mm. It is written...
F: Ah, baAnges?
F: BaAnges, [in Swahili] Angels?
B and L: Angels.
B: Among those who did wrong there were something like ten million as we learned from the stories.
B: Now, when God chased them away they had not place to stay. By then God had already created this world of ours.
B: Since they had no place to stay they ...
B: They went down and came to this place, the women went into water, the men into...
B: Into the earth.
B: Mm. In other words....
F: They were like Angels?
F: So then, long ago they were Angels?
B: Long ago, (they were) Angels, mm.
F: Now they...
B: ... are Satans.
F: Is (such a being) a spirit like the ones people believe in back in the village?
B: In the village, there are (spirits).
F: So, Mamba Muntu is a spirit?
L: [pauses] She, too, is just a human being...?...
B: [overlapping] ...?... just a human being.
F: She is a human being?
B and L: Mm.
F: Not a spirit?
L: She is ...?...well, something in between. [chuckles]
F: In between?
L: Well, yes. There are those who say she is a spirit, others say she is a human being.
F: But I don’t....
F: ...understand. I still don’t understand.
B: [overlapping] If you look closely.
F: I still don’t understand, why does she look like a European?
B: [pauses] About her looking like a European, it’s because people think that when God created the Earth, the skin was...
F: ... white?
B: White, yes.
B: [chuckles] Yea, yea. People’s skin was white. Nowadays we see people as they are (now). We, the black people, will never know whether we were....?...(where our skin) came from. (Our) skin just took this appearance.
| 24. F: hii: mambo ya: ya Mamba Muntu/ ni mambo ya sa: ni
mambo ya: ya mu kizu:
B: ya satani/
F: no: ya satani vile vile mais: ya sasa ina: onekana sasa: ni mambo ya: ya mu kizungu ao:
F: ilikuwa: zamani mu mugini?
L: ilikuwa humu zamani mu mukini:
B: ilikuwa humu zamani/
L: mais fashi ilitoka mu ba hivi: ilikuwa: ilitoka mu Indes/
F: mu Indes?
L: eeh/ njo fashi ilitoka bintu ya mingi mingi ya hivi/
B: iko kusema tu: mais:
L: mm/ ni fashi ilitoka bintu ya mingi mingi/
F: hii unajua namna gani?
L: si mu histoire tunaenda kufunda tu yote? [chuckles]
F: mu histoire?
L: eeh/ [chuckles]
L: mm/ juu...
F: ...na hapa: sawa hapa Shaba/ iliingia: iliingia wapi? kutoka wapi?
B: sawa humu mu Shaba: ni kusema tu ni: baHaussa njo banakuwa na hii mambo/
L: baHaussa voilà: baHaussa/ banakuwa ni hii madawa/
B: hii mambo/ balikuwa na madawa ile: njo na: ile mambo inaingia humu/
F: na madawa ya: ya:
L: ya hivi hivi eh ni ba:
B: [overlapping] ...?...
F: matableaux: sawa?
L: dawa tu/ dawa tu/
B: dawa tu/ wa: fétiches/
F: mu: namna ya...
B: banavwala: sawa s:
F: ya Mamba: ah: dawa:
F: oui oui/ minaona/
B: ma?take pale ...?...
F: mais: Mamba Muntu: s: sijue kama: sisikie tena namna ya Mamba Muntu ilikuwa: ilikuwa dawa ao?
B: yoo kusema:
F: wee una: unasema baHaussa: banaingisha:
F: banaingisha Mamba Muntu hapa: mu humu mais: namna gani? balikuwa na: na tableaux yake? ao?
L: balikuwa madawa yabo:
B: fétiches yabo:
F: kwa: kwa kufanana na: na Mamba Muntu?
L: yee anatosha tu muntu muzima/
B: yee anatosha tantôt muntu muzima: yee/ banafanya bintu bintu yake: ana: sema bintu yake anasema anasema/
F: kiisha: Mamba Muntu ana:
L: analuka ndeke paka [claps] vile/
F: [pauses] na ndeke: hii ndeke [pointing to Beya’s picture of Mamba Muntu]: iko:
B: ndeke ile ni kusema: juu ya kuonyesha...
L: ...njo tableau... ?... fashi inyewe...
F: [pauses] karibu na mayi/
B and L: mm/
F: ni ma: mutoni gani?
B: ni kusema: mutoni ya haina na jina...?... tuko nafanya tu/
F: This Mamba Muntu business, is this something that belongs the urban....
B: It belongs to Satan.
F: No – to Satan, too, but nowadays, the way it appears now, is this an urban affair, or?
F: Did it exist in the past, in the village?
L: In the past it existed here, in the village.
B: It existed here in the past.
L: But the place from where it came in this form is India.
F: From India?
L: Yes. That’s a place where lots of things came from.
B: That’s what they say, but...
L: Mm. It’s a place where lots of things came from.
F: How do you know that?
L: Isn’t that something we all learned in history? [chuckles]
F: In history?
L: Yes. [chuckles]
L: Mm. Because...
F: ...And here, like here in Shaba. Where did it come up? Where did it come from?
B: Here in Shaba, it was the Haussa who came with those matters.
F: The Haussa?
L: The Haussa, there you are. They had those magic charms.
B: Those things. They had these magic charms, which was how this came to our country here.
F: And the charms (you are talking about).
L: The kind they....
B: [overlapping] ...?...
F: Were they like the paintings?
L: Just charms, just charms.
B: Just charms, [in French] fetishes.
F: People using fetishes?
F: The way of...
B: ...they would dress up like...
F: ...like Mamba (Muntu). Ah, (you mean) charms.
F: Yes, yes, I see.
F: But Mamba Muntu, I don’t know, I still don’t understand what Mamba Muntu was, was she a charm, or?
B: That is to say.
F: You say the Haussa introduced (her).
B: They introduced her.
F: They introduced Mamba Muntu here, to this country, but how? Did they have paintings of her, or?
L: They had their charms.
B: In their fetishes.
F: That looked like Mamba Muntu?
L: She was made to appear in a person as a whole.
B: Sometimes she was made to appear in a person as a whole. They would keep doing her things, and she would keep speaking, telling her things.
F: And then Mamba Muntu...
L: A bird would take to the air, just like that [claps]
F: [pauses] And a bird – this bird here [pointing to Beya’s picture of Mamba Muntu], that is...
B: This bird is to show (what I told you).
L: ...it’s in the painting...?... in this place...
F: [pauses] Close to water.
B and L: Mm.
F: What river is this?
B: Well, the river doesn’t have a name...?...we just painted one.
| 25. F: bon/ bon muzuri/ uliisha kuona Mamba Muntu: Mamba
Muntu sawa: yee na bwana yake?
B: na bwana yake?
F: mwana: mwanamuke hivi:
B: ah: et puis bwana/
F: kiisha: karibu bwana yake/ bado: wee bado kuona?
B: ah ah/ mimi bado kuona/
I: is the: is the snake her husband?
F: no/ ah/ this is explained/
I: yea/ how many: how many Mamba Muntus are there in the: in the world? if they were created in the beginning/
F: sawa bali:
I: is there only one or more?
F: sawa vile wee unasema: bali: balibaumba mu: mu mwanzo/
F: Mamba Muntu/ kumbe: ni bamingi?
F: ni bamingi?
F: hapana sawa moya tu:
F: mu Kisangani ao?
B: hapana: beko mingi/
F: Port Francqui? non?
B: iko mingi/
F: iko mingi?
B: mm/ mm/
I: dans: dans toutes les: toutes les lacs?
B: dans toutes les lac il y a des:
I: toutes: toutes l’eau?
B: y a des: Mamba Mu: des sirènes dans toutes les lacs/
I: et les: et les fleuves aussi?
B: fleuves aussi: ça existe/ mm/
I: avez-vous vu?
B: pas: [chuckles] pas encore/
I: pas encore/
B: à mon âge: ce serait difficile [chuckles] de voir/
I: pour quoi?
B: seulement si j’ai la chance/ [chuckles] parce que pour le voir: il faut avoir la chance de: [chuckles] de voir/
I: I don’t understand/ you have to have eh:...
F: ...you have to have eh: luck/
I: good luck?
F: he says/ yea/
I: but why is it at his age he?
F: yea/ he hasn’t seen yet: he hasn’t ...?...
I: yea/ mais: pourquoi à votre âge? ...?...
F: inafaa kuwa muzee? pa kumuona/
B: [overlapping] ya kuona hii bintu?
B: juu ya kuonana naye?
B: juu ya kuonana naye inapenda: kusema: faut kama uko na chance ya kuonana naye/
L: juu kuko bintu: yu: uko na muntu mwenyewe: mwenyewe balikuwa mu zamani/ na Mamba Muntu na bale madawa/
L: ni kama hauna madawa hauweze kuona: kukuona hapana/
F: inafaa kuwa na madawa?
L: na muntu mwenyewe/
F: [overlapping] madawa gani?
L: sawa madawa: sawa bantu: ma: ma: ile fétiches: ni sawa magie/
L: kama inakuwa kutokea hivi mais: kunaisha/ ni kusema na wee unaanza kutumika kazi ya hii inyewe/ unakuwa sawa muntu anatumikia muntu mwenyewe madawa/
F: Alright, fine. Have you ever seen (a painting of Mamba Muntu) together
with her husband?
B: With her husband?
F: A woman like this.
B: Yes, and then the husband.
F: ...and then, next to her, her husband. Not yet, you haven’t seen (one like that), so far?
B: Ah, no. I haven’t seen that yet.
I: (In English) Is the, is the snake her husband?
F: No, ah, this is explained.
I: Yea. How many, how many Mamba Muntus are there in the, in the world? If they were created at the beginning.
F: So they....
I: Is there only one or more?
F: As you said, they were created at the beginning.
F: Mamba Muntu. So, are there many of them?
F: They are many?
F: No just the one...
F: ...(who is said) to live near Kisangani, or...
B: No, there are many.
F: ...or at Port Francqui? Non?
B: There are many.
F: There are many?
B: Mm. Mm.
I: (in French) In all the, all the lakes?
B: In all the lakes, there are....
I: In every body of water?
B: ... there are Mamba Mu: sirènes, in all the lakes.
I: And in the rivers also?
B: In rivers, too, they are found. Mm.
I: Have you seen (her)?
B: Not, [chuckles] no so far.
I: No yet.
B: At my age it would be difficult [chuckles] to see (her).
B: Only if I am lucky. [chuckles] Because to see her you must have luck, it takes luck [chuckles] to see her.
I: [In English] I don’t understand, you have to have, eh...
F: ...you have to have, eh, luck.
I: Good luck?
F: He says, yea.
I: But why is it at his age, he?
F: Yea. He hasn’t seen yet, he hasn’t seen ...?...
I: Yea. (in French) But why at your age? ...?...
F: Do you have to be old to see her?
B: [overlapping] To see those things?
B: So that you see each other?
B: About seeing each other – you must have luck to see each other.
F: I see.
L: Because those are things – you (must be) together with someone like those who were consorting with Mamba Muntu in the old days, those people with charms.
L: If you don’t have the charms you cannot see her.
F: One must have the charms?
L: And the person (who works them).
F: [overlapping] What kind of charms?
L: Like those the people had with their fetishes. It’s like magic.
L: Perhaps then (she) appears but that’s it.
In other words, you yourself begin to do this kind of work (and then) you are like someone who works with charms.
| 26. F: mm/ bon/ kiisha: tuko na: hii Territoire:
F: Dibaya: kule: kwenu?
F: ah/ [pauses] kumbe hii ni: mu masortes yako:
B: ku masortes yangu?
F: una: jina: jina yake ni?
B: jina ya?
F: ya hii: kabila ya tableaux/
B: kabila ya hii tableaux? ni kusema: jina ya hii tableaux ni kusema: authenticité/
F: authenticité/ mm/ bengine banaita: Colonie Belge/
L: si ni vile...?...?
B: bengine banaita hivi:
B: juu: shee: balikuwa uko nawaza vile tulikuwa mu nani: mu...
F: [overlapping] mais: mu mawazo yako ilikuwa...
F: authenticité namna gani?
L: bintu yetu ya zamani/
B: bintu yetu ya zamani/ tulikuwa nao/
L: uzoezi ya bintu ya zamani tulikuwa nao/
B: mm/ temps tuna...
F: ... kumbe: na hii...
B: ...na bantu batawaza/
F: ile: ile tunaona mu hii tableau: ni bintu: ya zamani/
B: [overlapping] ya zamani/
F: bon/ unieleze kwanza: kwanza: ni kintu gani/
I: Johannes: when they ask for the painting/ people: when they ask for the painting/ do they ask it is for authenticité?
F: kama bantu banaomba: tableau/
F: ya hivi/ banaomba namna gani?
L: beko tu banasema tu...
B: Etat Belge/
L: Etat Belge/
F: Etat Belge?
L: là voilà/
F: Etat Belge/
F: njo jina yake?
F: bon: un: utuelezee sasa maana ya: histoire yake/
B: histoire ya hii tableaux?
F: sawa vile: tunaona nini?
B: ni kuona hapa: ni muzungu: anaikala pa meza: sawa mu maTerritoires mingi:
B: ilikuwa masaa ya asubui ile: atakuwa juu ya kuomba marapports ya kuona bale ba: bantu balifanya mubaya: juu ya kubapunir/
B: sasa pale atafika: kama muntu alifanya mubaya: batamupika mfimbo/ bale bengine balikuwa na ba: ndeni ya bantu: bengine baliua bantu: beko na ba munyololo mu: mu:
B: mu hii ...?...tu/ c’est ça/
F: mm/ na yee?
B: na baPolice yake: beko mpembeni juu ya ku: musaidia/
F: mm/ [pauses] njo yote?
B: njo vile ilikuwa/
F: njo: njo maana yake/ bon/ ah: na ulisema: kama bantu banauza ya mingi ya hivi?
| 26. F: Mm. Alright.
Then we have (this painting, (inscribed) Territoire...
F: Dibaya, that’s in your home country?
B: In the Kasai.
L: (Near) Kananga.
F: Ah [pauses]. Among the kinds (of paintings) you do.
B: Among the kinds I do?
F: Do you have a name (for this one), what is its name?
B: The name of?
F: Of this kind of paintings.
B: This kind of paintings? The name of these painting is authenticité. 
F: Authenticité, mm. Others call it Colonie Belge.
L: Isn’t that the same?
B: That’s what some people call it.
B: Because, (when you see it) you think about how it was for us when there was...
F: [overlapping] But, in your thoughts it was...
F: Authenticité, in what sense?
L: Things as they were for us in the past.
B: Things as they were for us in the past.
L: Our tradition of things we had in the past.
F: I see.
B: Mm. The times when we....
F: ...so, with this (painting)...
B: ...people are going the think.
F: What we see in this painting are things of the past?
B: [overlapping] Of the past.
F: Alright, explain to me what is what.
I: Johannes, when they ask for the painting, people, when they ask for the painting, do they ask it is for authenticite?
F: When people ask for the painting.
F: How do the ask for this kind of painting?
L: They just say...
F: Paint me an...
B: Etat Belge.
F: Etat Belge?
L: There you are.
F: Etat Belge.
F: That is its name?
F: Alright, explain to us its signification, its story.
B: The story of this painting?
F: Like, what is it we see.
B: What you see here is a European, sitting at a table as it happened in many places of the territorial colonial administration.
B: It was during the morning hours, (the European) would be there to ask for reports and to see those people who had committed an offence and to punish them.
B: So when he arrived, a person who had committed an offence would be flogged with a whip. Then there were some who had made debts with other people, still others who had killed people. They are in chains.
B: In this ...?..., that sort of thing.
F: Mm. And who is this one.
B: He belongs to his police force, they keep on the side to assist him.
F: Mm. [pauses] That’s all?
B: That’s how it used to be.
F: So, this is what it signifies. Alright. And you said that people buy many (paintings) of this kind?
| 27. F: et: kiisha: twiko na: [picking up paintings] na
F: sasa: tena:
F: kama bantu banafika banaomba hii...
F: bana: banasema namna gani?
B: bo banasema utufanshie: sawa ya: bugomvi ya njia ya train: ile baMulele balikuwa kufanya embuscade pale: train iko napita: juu ya kuendelea sawa Kasai kule/
F: ahah/ ilikuwa fasi gani?
B: ilikuwa sawa Kabondo Dianda: pa gare Kabondo Dianda:
F: Kabondo Dianda?
B: aah/ njo mafashi ilikuwa ba: embuscades sana: baMulele beko na...
F: ... sasa kumbe: tunaona hapa mu: mu nani: mu tableau tunaona na ya: banani? bale bako na...
F: ... na mukuki/
B: ni: baMulele?
B and L: baMulele/
F: ku Kabondo Dianda?
F: si njo balikuwa baJeunesses?
B: minaona balikuwa baMulele: njo iliingia: na baJeunesses: yote/
L: beko nafanya ma: ma:
B: eheh Balubakat/
L: matemps ya matrable/
B: njo banafanya bantu...?...
F: [laughs] na bale ba: baaskari? ni ya: ya nani?
B: banani? ba:
F: ni Armée Nationale ao nani?
B: ah: haba ni maArmée Nationale/ balikuwa kuchunga bantu bale balifukisha humu: mu nini: mu Shaba:
B: juu ya kurégagner marégions yabo/
B: njo balikuwa kubachunga mu njia: juu ya: bantu ya ufujo: bale ...?.../
F: na: hii paysage ni: bilima:
B: bilima: ngomba/ bilima/
B: ngomba mu Lingala/
F: ngomba: mu Lingala?
B: mu Lingala/ [chuckles]
F: ah: munasemaka tena Lingala?
F: munasemaka ni: lugha ngapi?
B: mi? minasema Lingala/
L: [chuckles] zaidi anasema: Français: anasema nani: tshiKasai: asema Swahili: asema Lingala/ kiKongo anayua/
L: oui oui/
F: ku: kufunda kule ku:
L: sasa: minayua kinani: Lingala: kiKasai: Swahili: kiBemba: Français/ na kiNyanga vile/
F: na kiAnglais kiloko?
L: ah kiAnglais kiloko/
F: Then we have [picking up paintings] these two here.
F: Now, again...
F: ...when people ask for them...
F: How do the talk about them?
B: They say paint us the fighting over the railroad train, when the Mulelists set up an ambush at the place where the train passes, going to the Kasai.
F: I see. What was the place?
B: It was Kabondo Dianda, at Kabondo Dianda station.
F: Kabondo Dianda?
F: Yes. Those were the kinds of places where the Mulelists set up ambushes all the time. They had...
F: ...so, who are the people we see here in the painting. There are some.....
F: ...with spears.
B: It’s the Mulelists (with the spears)?
B and L: The Mulelists.
F: The Mulelists?
F: At Kabondo Dianda?
F: Wasn’t that the baJeunesses?
B: As I see it, it was the Mulelists who had thoroughly infiltrated the baJeunesses.
L: They caused the...
F: (Or was it the) Balubakat?
B: Yes, Balubakat.
L: (During) the times of troubles.
F: Of troubles?
B: That’s when they made people...?...
F: [laughs]  And what about those soldiers, who did they belong to?
B: Who they belonged to?
F: It’s the National Army, or who?
B: Yes, they belong to the National Army. They were there to protect the people who had been expelled here from Shaba.
B: To return to their home regions.
B: (The soldiers) were to protect them along the (rail)road against people who were out to fight, those...?...
F: And about this landscape, it’s mountains.
B: Mountains, ngomba, mountains.
B: Ngomba in Lingala.
F: Ngomba in Lingala?
B: In Lingala. [chuckles]
F: Ah, you also speak Lingala.
F: How many languages do you speak?
B: Me? I speak Lingala.
L: [chuckles] He speaks French quite well, and Tshiluba, Swahili, Lingala. He knows Kikongo.
L: Yes, yes.
F: Because he studied there in...
L: Now, I know Lingala, Tshiluba, Swahili, Bemba, French, and also Nyanja.
F: And a little English?
L: Yes, a little English.
| 28. F: bon/ kiisha yake: tuko na ingine: hapa:
B: mm/ hii ya Kalemie/
L: juu ya Kalemie/
F: Mulele ya Kalemie?
L: eeh/ bengine ni wa Mulele: benyewe/
F: kumbe: bale baaskari:
F: ni banani?
B: bale: haba ni ba: baPara yetu ya: ya Zaire/
B: pale Mulele alibamba bafizi: baragars: coté ya Kalemia kule/ njo na bo balienda juu ya kufungula ba: njia ile: juu ya ku: kufukisha baMulele: juu ya kuingisha kule/
F: sawa: kumbe: bantu banaauza hii matableaux juu ya nini?
B: juu ya kuwaza/
L: kuwa: kukumbuka bintu yote ya zamani/
B: [overlapping] ...?...ile ya zamani/
F: mm/ mm/ sawa souvenir?
F: na mara ingine kama: bana: kama banauza hii tableaux: bana: banachunga paka mu nyumba mais: banaangaria tena: mara ingine banasema...?...
B: ...banawaza: sawa tu niliikala hapa: tunaangaria: aah: sawa hii/ mara ingine tulikuwa na kuuliza: nini: kusumbulia bintu bingine: sasa tunawaza ile mambo: ilipita ya hivi/
B: kama mugeni alikuwa ile fashi: ata: atataka: ataanza sasa: ku: tu elezea vile aliona ile ilipita mu: mu macho yake/
F: mm/ [I see] mm/
F: Fine. Then we have another one here.
B: Mm. That one is about (events at) Kalemie.
L: About Kalemie.
F: Is it the Mulelist rebellion at Kalemie?
L: Yes, some were followers of Mulele.
F: Then, there are those soldiers.
F: Who were they?
B: Those are our Zairian paratroopers.
B: When Mulele recruited bandits and ...?... around Kalemie. So (the troops) moved there in order to open that access road and drive out the Mulelists.
F: Then, why do people buy these paintings?
B: To think.
L: To remember all those things that happened in the past.
B: [overlapping] (the events) of the past.
F: Mm. Mm. Like a souvenir?.
F: And sometimes, when they buy these paintings they keep them in the house but when they look at them don’t they sometimes talk (about them)?
B: ...They think (about them, like, this is where I lived. When we are looking at this (painting) there may be questions and we talk about things, that is when we think about these events, this is how they happened.
B: If a guest happens to be there (the host) will want to explain how he witnessed what happened before his eyes.
F: I see. Mm.
| 29. F: mm/ bon/ kiisha: [goes away to pick up painting]
twiko na: namna hii/ [noise of handling paintings]
F: njo Gécamines?
F: bantu banaomba: kama banafika banaomba: Gécamines/
F: sababu ya nini?
B: hii: ni Gécamines/ ni kusema: [claps] saa ile ilikuwa bugomvi:
B: humu [claps]/ pale: balisema ah [claps]: humu iko Etat du Katanga/
B: sasa: tuliona baONU balikuwa humu: tuliona bagende: ex: ex-gendarmes: balikuwa humu/ ex-gendarmes balikuwa ku: défendre asema ONU hataingia humu juu ya kubamba nini:
B: Katanga/ sasa na ba: ONU nabo beko nafanya nguvu baingie mu: mu Katanga juu ya kubamba juu ya kuweka: tranquillité/ sasa mabugomvi ilitoka: baVerts na baONU iko napita: iko nafanya juu ya sécurité ya nini: ya usine: kuangaria tout ce qui..?... ilikuwa tu ya kuharibisha: hapana mu:
B: juu ya kuangaria: sécurité ya usine/
B: juu ya hii bintu/
| 29. F: Mm. Alright. Then
[goes away to pick up painting] we have this kind. [noise of handling
F: That’s a (painting of) Gécamines?
F: When people come to order one they ask for a Gécamines.
B: This Gécamines, it is [claps] about the time of fighting.
B: Here [claps]. People would say, ah [claps], here, this is the State of Katanga.
B: We saw the UN troops here, we saw the former Gendarmes here. The ex-Gendarmes were on the defense, saying the UN is not going to get into (the factory) and take control of...
B: Of Katanga. At the same time, the UN troops made every effort to get into Katanga and take control to establish calm. So it came to fighting, the Green (Gendarmes) and the UN came through to assure the security of the factory, to see to it that nothing was destroyed in...
B: To watch over the security of the factory.
B: This is what that was about.
| 30. F: na pa: pa kupenta hii: uli: ulienda kuona?
F: na macho?
B: paka: kufanya na akili/
F: na akili ...?...
L: na akili/ shi: kama unapita: sawa nyumba unaiona...
B: ...sawa nyumba...
L: ...nyumba ya Monsier: kweli tunaisha/ minaanza kufanya sawa picha...?...njo fanya tuko naisha/
B: hauna tena tu na kitabu hapana/
F: haufanye mara ingine mapaysages: haufanye sawa: kuangaria na macho na:
B: ...na bitabu hapana/
L: hapana/ paysages ingine...?...
F: paka na akili?
L: akili tu/
F: sawa baartistes...
B: ...sawa ya hii ni hii yote paka:
F: ya paka akili/
F: And, to paint this, did you go and have look (at the factory)?
F: With you own eyes?
B: It’s just painting from imagination.
F: From imagination...?...
L: From imagination. (The way we work), we go by a house and you see there...
B: ...what the house is like...
L: ...the house of a person. That’s all, really. I begin to do a painting...?...we get it done, that’s all.
B: Nor do you consult a book.
F: Don’t you sometimes paint landscapes after first looking at them with you own eyes and...
B: ...and in books. No.
L: No. Some landscapes...?...
F: Only from imagination?
B: Imagination only.
F: Like (other artists)...
B: ...what you see here, it all comes...
F: ...from imagination only.
| 31. F: na hata paysages kule?
B: aah/ na paysage: kutosha pale: gorille/
F: gorille ni: ni: ilikuwa:
L: ...eh ni kafoto...
L: ...kadogo sana/
F: mu magazine?
F: And about what about those landscape paintings over there?
B: Yes, the one showing a gorilla.
F: The gorilla was...
B: ...well, it was a small photograph.
F: A small photograph.
L: It was really tiny.
F: In a magazine?
| 32. F: bon/ na mandeke: kule?
B: mandeke: paka: akili tu/
L: eheh/ akili tu/
F: akili tu?
L: mm/ [chuckles]
F: kiisha bantu banapita kule ku njia:
B: eheh: beko nakimbia pale banaona bandeke: njo vile banakimbia/
F: aah/ minaona/ minaona/
| 32. F: Alright. What
about the birds there?
B: The birds – painted from imagination only.
L; Yes. Just imagination.
F: Just imagination?
L: Mm. [chuckles]
F: Then there are people walking by on the road.
B : Yes. They run away when they see the birds, that’s when they run away.
F: Aah, I see. I see.
| 33. bon: na: hii/ [picks up painting]
B: hii: niliwaza sawa: masaa tunikalaka mu mu...
B: ku: mukini yetu:
F: ku mukini?
F: sawa vile bantu: vile:
F: mwanamuke moya: na ba...
B: ...banaikala: uko nawaza: bengine beko wana...?... moto pa saa ya baridi: bengine mwanamuke eko anatwanga: bunga yake kule njo kufanya: [claps] chakula/
B: ...sasa bengine na bo baliisha kwenda ku mapori: beko benye kutafuta: chakula/
F: ulikuwa na modèle? ya kufwata?
L: hapana: mu tête/
B: mu kichwa/ kyote bankambo yetu banaikalakaka huku/
F: mais hii dessin: ulifanyaka tu:
B: paka mu: na crayon mbele: njo kuweka kintu/
L: ku...?... mapenti...?...
F: mais: hii dessin ulifunda kule ku:
B: eh/ ile kintu tulifunda njo kutosha muntu mais: sasa utafanya masenses yote:
B: utapakala ...?...: yote/
F: na bantu bana: nani: bana: banauzi: banauza?
B: beko nauza/
L: beko nauza hii bien sana hii/
L: mm/ banapenda sasa: banaangaria mambo ya ku mugini tunafanyaka:
B: [overlapping] ku mukini...?...
L: bankambo yetu sawa hii: biko hivi...?...
B: sawa sasa shee tuko na mambo: mais ile saa ya zamani: tulikuwa na: [claps]
L: bo bana...?...
B: moto ya vile:
L: bankambo yetu/
B: bilikuwa hivi/
Alright. And there is this one. [picks up painting]
B: For this one I thought about the time we lived in...
B: In our village.
F: In the village?
F: How people (used to live).
F: There is a woman and they...
B: ...they sit around. You think about how some tend the fire during the hours when it is cold. Others, (like) the woman there, she is pounding the flour she needs to prepare [claps] a meal.
B: ...still others have gone to the bush looking for food.
F: Did you have a model to paint from?
L: No, it’s in your head.
B: It’s in you head. (It was like this) everywhere when our ancestors used to live here.
F: But the design you just painted...
B: Just a with a pencil first and then finishing the thing.
L: ...?... with colors.
B: But this kind of arrangement you learned there in...
F: ...in Kinshasa?
F: In Kinshasa.
B: Yes, once we learned to bring out a person you are going to apply this (technique) everywhere.
L: You are goint to paint it.
B: You are going to apply it...?... to everything.
F: And people buy (this kind of painting)?
B: They buy it.
L: They buy this kind a lot.
F: This one?
L: Mm. Nowadays they like to contemplate what went on in a village.
B: [overlapping] In the village.
L: That’s how our ancestors used to be, ...?...
B: Today we have our problems but at that time, in the past, we had...[claps]
L: They had...?...
B: A fire like this.
L: Our ancestors.
B: This is how things used to be.
F: I see.
| 34. F: kiisha hii: fumeur de pipe/
B: aah: fumeur de pipe/
L: njo bankambo yetu bana...
B: ...sawa nkambo eh ...?...
L: banavuta eh tu: nani:
B: anabeba hii drap de: yake: na ...?...ile ni monsieur ...?... anavuta tumbako hiki/
F: na kibuyu/
B: na kibuyu eh/ [chuckles]
F: na kibuyu/ njo: njo mwanaume ao mwanamuke? mwanaume?
L: [overlapping] mwanaume/
F: mm/ na bantu banapenda tena hii?
B: beko nauza tu/
L: [overlapping] beko na:
B: hapa sasa minakwenda: minapata macommandes bengine vile/
F: uli: ulipata commande ingine?
L: yo ikoamo na addresses tena/
F: Then there is this pipe smoker.
B: Yes, a pipe smoker.
L: That is what our ancestors used to...
B: ... the way our ancestors...?...
L: Would smoke, what do you call it?
B: A person would carry his sheet (of cloth) like this gentleman...?... this thing he smoked his tobacco in.
F: In a gourd.
B: In a gourd, yes. [chuckles].
F: Is (the person depicted) a man or a woman? A man? 
B: A man.
L: [overlapping] A man.
F: Mm. And people still like this (kind of painting)?
B: They buy it.
L: [overlapping] They have...
B: Right now I have some orders for this painting).
F: You had other orders?
L: There are, with addresses (left by customers).
| 35. F: dis: uli: uliuza tena: uliuzisha tena na: sawa na
ma: magazins ou bars?
B: sawa mu macités njo balikuuza/
F: ku: ku mabars?
B: macités: hapana: bantu beko nauza...
F: ba: beko bantu mu: mu manyumba yabo?
F: mais: sawa vile: wee: haukuwa mu: na commandes ya: commerçant moya?
B: commerçant moya mi bado kupata commandes/
F: unafanya tena: ah bon: pa kuuzisha matableaux:
F: [walks away to show paintings] uko na hii inne: minaona kama inafanana/
B: mm/ hii inafanana/ mm/
F: [back to micro] ma: sawa vile: hii: hii sortes: ni kabila: una: unaita: ni nini?
B: sawa hii: paka kamukini yetu/
L: paysages ya humu/
F: mm/ kamukini: bale bantu banauza?
B: beko natoka na nyama: sasa ule...
B: à part: ailisha kubaona banakuwa tu kuongojea ya ku:
B: batambuisha vile/
B: tambuke juu ya kupika kule mu...?...
F: kutambuka: ah: kutambuka/
F: Say, have you sold (paintings) also to shops or bars?
B: In the townships, they were sold.
F: In bars?
B: (In the) townships – no, it’s people who buy them.
F: People who put them up in their homes?
F: But does this mean you don’t have orders from a single merchant?
B: So far, I had no orders from a merchant.
F: Then you do – ah, alright, to sell paintings...
F: [walks away to show paintings] You have these four (paintings) that seem to resemble one another.
B: Mm. These are similar, mm.
F: [back to micro] What do you call this sort of painting, what is it about?
B: (Paintings) like these – just “Our little village.”
L: Local landscapes.
F: Mm. “Little village.” People buy it?
B: (The painting shows hunters who come back with game. Now this one...
B: ...standing apart, he has seen them coming and is waiting for people who...
L: ...inspect (the meat).
B: ...who inspect it.
B: For them...
L: ...to have look.
B: They should look (at it) so that (it can) be cooked over there...?...
F: Kutambuka (you call it), I see, kutambuka.
| 36. na hii?
B: hii ni mu mafashi/
F: fasi ya: chutes?
B: ya chutes/
L: [overlapping] ya chutes/
F: ni fashi fulani?
B: ah ni fashi fulani/
B: ni kusema ni huku ku ile: ts: ile ingine:
L: mu ngambo Mukambo/
F: na jina yake ya chutes ni?
B: chutes ni kusema:
L: ingine ku mu karibu mu kiBemba/
B: mu kiBemba eh/
L: mais sawa una...?... /
F: na nj: na njia: inapita kule?
L: eeh njia inapita/
F: utaweza kufika kuangaria?
F: uli: uliisha kuona na mecho?
B: nilifika ile fashi: njo tulienda kutembea juu ya kutafuta nyama ya: ya pori/
B: njo pale niliangaria asema: nifanye mbele ile ...?.../ njo mara ya kwanza ya kupima kufanya/
F: njo mara ya kwanza hii?
B: ya kwanza/
L: sasa utaweza kukatakata miti/ ni utaweza kutosha hii miti hii/
L: eh...?...utaweza kutosha: maneno tu njia munene ya mayi/
F: ah bon/
L: mm/ njo njia moya inapita inaenda na njia ya nani: Kasama/ ya bantu ya Zambia/
L: eh ni fashi banapitia hivi/ asema baliisha kukata hii miti yote ile bantu banaingia mu ...?...
And this (painting)?
B: This one (shows) a certain place. 
F: A place where there are water falls?
L: [overlapping] Where there are falls.
F: Is this a particular place?
B: Yes, it’s a particular place.
B: Well, it’s around here, the one...
L: ...near Mukambo.
F: And what it the name of the falls?
B: Falls is called...
L: There are some close by (with a name) in Bemba.
B: In Bemba, yes.
L: But you...?...
F: And there is a road that passes there?
L: Yes, a road passes there.
F: Could you go there to look (at the falls)?
F: Have you seen them with your own eyes?
B: I have been to that place, when we were wandering around, looking for game.
F: I see.
B: It was when I saw (the falls) that I told myself I am going to paint this...?...That was the first time I tried to paint (after nature).
F: This was the first time?
B: The first one.
L: Nowadays you can cut out the trees, you can leave out those trees.
L: Yes...?...you can leave them out, because there is this wide road near the water.
F: I see.
L: Mm. There is a road that passes there, going to Kasama, used by people from Zambia.
L: Yes, it’s a place where they pass. In other words, they have cut down all those trees, people can get into...?...
| 37. na tena hii gorille/
F: ni paka fantaisie?
B: fantaisie mm/
F: [laughs] wee bado kuona gorille?
F: [pauses] ...?... na: mwisho: ni:
B: tembo: hii tembo/ anabamba ba: bachasseurs: balienda njo batafuta tembo/
F: sasa tembo:
B: sasa ni tembo na yee anakuwa mukalamuishi: anaenda kubaua/
F: uliisha kuona tembo?
B: tembo minaisha kuona/
F: mu pori?
B: sawa mi mu zoo/
L: mu zoo...?...
F: mu zoo? paka mu zoo?
F: Albert? [laughs]
F: si njo ku: alikuwa Albert?
F: hii muzee?
F: mais mu pori bado...
B: ...mu pori hapana/ vis-à-vis hapana/ paka nyama yake iko naleta juu ya kula/
F: habana: hapa karibu hatuna naye?
L: mi minaisha kuona tu mu mecho hivi iko nakimbilia/ sawa ku mukini/ anapita tu mukini bale bantu balikimbiakimbia mbio/
L: minakuisha kuona yee/
Then, this picture of a gorilla.
F: Is it just fantasy?
B: Fantasy, mm.
F: [laughs] You never saw a gorilla?
F: [pauses] ...?...And finally there is...
B: ...the elephant, this (painting of) an elephant. (He is shown) stopping the hunters who had gone out looking for elephants.
F: Now, the elephant...
B: ...now the elephant is clever and is about to kill them.
F: To kill them?
F: Have you seen an elephant before?
B: An elephant I have seen.
F: In the wild?
B: I (saw one) in the zoo.
L: In the zoo...?..
F: In the zoo? Only in the zoo?
F: (Was it) Albert? [laughs]
F: Wasn’t he called Albert?
F: The old one?
F: But in the wild (you haven’t seen one).
B: Not in the wild, not from close by. (All I saw) was (elephant) meat someone brought to eat.
F: We don’t have any nearby?
L: I have actually seen one, running away. (And when elephant) came by a village people used to run away fast.
L: I have seen him.
| 38. F: bon: muzuri/
F: tuliangaria yote:
I: you finished it up?
F: mm/ ah:
I: I have several requests/
F: Ma: Madame iko na ...?.../ kazi ya nguvu? [laughs]
I: that I worked hard?
I: [laughs] I would like to see whether they paint together/
I: how do they actually divide the work? if I could go once: to their place where:
I: and I could make a ...?...film/
I: ...?... they were much more cooperative when...?...
F: Madame anataka tena: sawa: siku ingine: siku ingine:
F: ataweza kufika: kwenu?
B: kule ngambo?
F: maneno: yee anakamat: ana: anataka kamata film moya:
F: sawa vile munatumikaka/
L: ile iko muzuri/
F: sawa vile unatumikaka/ wee unaan: sawa vile: munatumika saa yote/
F: hata na...
B: ...saa yote/ hata ...?...niko naenda na commandes: njo banatumika/
F: kumbe: inafaa...
I: ...how long does it take him to make a painting? how many hours?
F: kwa kufanya tableau moya: inakamata saa ngapi?
B: fanya tableau moya: sawa paysage: ni kusema itafanya une heure du temps pale/
B: aah bule paka hivi: inaisha/
B: mabrosses: njo iko na: natumanquer tu ya kufanya bintu lakini/
F: brosses muna:
I: which one takes the longest...?...?
F: ...mais hii na: ya: na: hii ya: na: nguvu ya kukamata wakati: kupitata ingine: ni nini?
B: juu ya kazi yote iishe?
B: juu ya kazi yote: fasi iko nguvu: mafashi ya kupasula mambao:
L: [overlapping] mambao/
B: kupika nini: misumari:
F: njo inakamata wakati?
B: njo inakamata saa mingi sana kupita/
B: eh/ sasa mu hii ya dessin ile: haina na kazi mingi/
F: haina na kazi mingi mais: kadiri ya: ya masortes yote?
L: masortes juu ya...
F: hii na: ya nguvu ya kupita ingine/
L: hii na kazi ya mingi/
B: iko na kazi mingi ni kusema ni: Gé: eh:
L: baPara bale:
B: baPara hii/
L: na maungo ya ule:
B: ya Mamba Muntu/
F: ya Mamba Muntu?
L: maungo yake hii/ pa kutoka kupata ile nsula ile: ah: iko nguvu/
B: iko nguvu sana/
F: pa kupata sula yake?
L: eeh: rangi yake ile/
F: pa kupata...
I: how do they: how they decide on the face of the women? what: what do they...?...
F: hii sula yake:
F: unatosha tu ku mawazo: ku akili?
B: sula tuko natosha tu ku bantu ingine/
L: [overlapping] mm: ku akili ...?... tu/
F: hau: hauangarie sawa ma: ma nani: mafotos mu:
L: mafotos: ni bintu si ....?...
F: chui: unafanya?
L: [overlapping] tuko nafanya/
B: tuko nafanyaka/
F: bon/ eh: what I would say: that they come back once more with Ndai/ and then we can go back...
I: ...?... [end of recording]
F: Alright, fine.
F: We had a look at all (the paintings).
I: You finished up?
F: Mm. Well...
I: I have several requests.
F: Madame has (some requests). This (talking) is hard work, right? [laughs]
I: (Did you say) that I worked hard?
I: [laughs] I would like to see whether they paint together.
I; How do they actually divide the work? If I could go once to their place where...
I: And I could make a film.
I: ...?.,..they were much more cooperative when...?...
F: Some day, Madame would also like...
F: Could she come to your place?
B: There in (the township)?
F: Because she would like to make a film.
F: (Showing) how you work.
B: I see.
B: That’s (an idea).
L: This is good.
F: How you usually work, how you work all the time.
F: Even with...
B: ...all the time. Even when I go around (delivering) orders they are working.
F: So we need....
I: ...how long does it take him to make a painting? How many hours?
F: To do one painting, how many hours does that take?
B: To do one painting – if it is a landscape, it’ll take one hour.
B: Yes. Net, that is all it takes.
B: It’s just that we lack the brushes it takes to do things (properly).
F: The brushes, you...
L: Just the brushes...?...
I: Which one take the longest?
F: But what is the most difficult and time-consuming part (of your work)?
B: To finish everything?
B: The difficult part of all the work is to cut the lumber.
L: [overlapping] The lumber.
B: (And) to nail it together.
F: That is what takes time?
B: That takes too many hours.
F: I see.
B: Yes. Now, the design itself, that’s not much work.
F: Not much work – but how is it for all the different kinds (of painting)?
L: To do the different kinds...
F: The ones that is more difficult than others.
L: The one that takes a lot of work.
B: The one that takes a lot of work – that would be (paintings) of Gécamines.
L: (And) those para-troopers.
B: Those para-troopers.
L: And the body (lit. the limbs) of this...
B: ... Mamba Muntu.
F: Of Mamba Muntu?
L: This body of hers. To bring out her face, ah, that’s difficult.
B: That’s very difficult.
F: To get her face?
L: Yes, its color.
F: To get...
I: How do they, how do they decide on the face of the women? What, what do they...?...?
F: That face of hers.
F: Do you paint it from your ideas, from imagination?
B: The face we take from certain people.
L: [overlapping] Mm. From imagination ...?...only.
F: Don’t you look at photographs in....
L: Photographs, those are things we...?...
F: (What about) leopards, do you paint (those)?
L: [overlapping] We do them.
B: We do them all the time.
F: Alright. [in English] What I would say, that they come back with Ndai and then we can go back...
I: ...?... [end of recording]
 Perhaps more than in other texts there are gaps
in the transcription, marked ...?...: B often talks very softly (and often his
speech trails off), L talks very rapidly and articulates badly, B and L often
respond at the same time, overlapping, and I suffered from a bad cough, which
blotted out a number of words or passages.
 I said jina, name, instead of njia, street.
 Because he gives his names in that order (which how they are noted on the recording) I refer to him as Beya. Note, however, that the paintings he brought along are signed “B. Ilunga.”
 The name of a well-known art school in Kinshasa.
 See Wikipedia. The 'Office des transports coloniaux (or "Colonial transport agency, OTRACO) was established, in 1935, as a public body, and renamed the Office des transports au Congo (OTRACO) in 1960, finally becoming the "Office National des Transports" (ONATRA) in 1971.
 He says alitenda mu sula ya kila bantu, lit. he put it on everyone’s face, an expression I never heard before or after.
 Earlier I had heard this phrase as mupila ya bantu, lit. sweaters worn by people.
 My responses indicate that I must have understood what Luaba was talking about but I am unable to make sense of the fragmentary transcript now: Who was Mr. Brown, what did he do to people’s faces?
 He means Nyanja (also called Chewa), aside from Bemba one of the most common languages spoken in Zambia.
 The time after independence and during the Katanga secession was often referred to as wakati ya (ma)troubles; Luaba gives troubles an English pronunciation.
 Luaba says Robert Contraction; there was a firm of builders in Zambia , called Roberts Construction.
 What Beya says is difficult to understand. It is from my negative response that I reconstruct his question.
 In translation I use the definitive article because I had a definitive painter, who signed as Ndaie T.B., in mind (see the conversation with him). Throughout this exchange we pronounced the name in slightly different ways, Ndai, Ndaie, Ndayi.
 By mistake I said wee, you.
 The workers’s settlement of the railway company.
 Lit. drinking, used for smoking gourd pipes, usually done by older women; another expression (see below) for smoking tobacco is kuvuta tumbako.
 I am not sure but my guess is that the term is derived from wazi, open, uncovered, and I seem to remember (see my response) paintings of a bare-breasted older woman smoking.
 This looks confusing but Beya just continued with the list of genres I tried to elicit here.
 The transcript has lukola huyu; I have been unable to trace lukola.
 Beya’s reacts to my showing off with a bit of ethnographic knowledge: In Luba animal stories the leopard is often given a regal title, mukalenge nkashama, Lord Leopard.
 Referring to Mobutu’s famed politics of authenticity, with measures like renaming the Congo Zaire, returning to pre-colonial place names, making people drop their Christian names, and prescribing an “authentic” dress code.
 Smoking a European pipe was a frequent accessory of government officials and missionaries in popular painting.
 Beya says teke teke, soft, weak.
 See Figure 20 in Szombati-Fabian and Fabian 1976:9.
 The tea probably was served in glasses.
 The whip, fimbo, was another name for Colonie Belge.
 A widely read Catholic publication that had just gotten much attention because of an article by Cardinal Malula that was critical of Mobutu’s policy of authenticity. It lead to an open confrontation between the church and the regime and caused Pope Paul VI. to intervene.
 The brothers Chenge, called Berquin before “authenticity,” a painter and a sculptor and creator of neo-African furniture, where nationally prominent painters at the time. They had their atelier/ workshop in Lubumbashi.
 A number of terms come up around my question for the maana, meaning of Mamba Muntu: her arisi, story, tale, her namna, method, her gi(n)si (ECS jinsi), kind, quality. Luaba adds to this diukuyo, with a French gloss, histoire. I read the term as di- (Luba prefix for the di/ma class) and ukuyo, an abstract concept derived from the verb kuya, to come (to pass), hence “history.”
 We were looking at the Mamba Muntu painting he had brought along (see Figure 9 in Szombati-Fabian and Fabian 1976:6).
 Beya says something like luloko, which I interpret as as inverted lu-kolo, around the neck.
 Methodists were the largest Protestant denomination in Katanga.
 On pumina see note 130 to the Vocabulaire in Archives of Popular Swahili.
 The expression I used in Swahili was mambo ya kizungu, lit. an affair of the world of the Europeans.
 In Shaba/Katanga baHaussa was the generic term for West-African traders, also called baSenegalais.
 See Figure 20 in Szombati-Fabian and Fabian 1976:9.
 About, authenticité see note to paragr.10 above.
 Background to this exchange: From other information about the popular genre “Attack on the Train” I did not expect that the attackers belonged to the Mulelist rebellion but to the baJeunesses, gangs of youths of unclear allegiance, operating in the early sixties. I also recall people using the term for Mobutu’s youth organization, JMPR.
 The reaction is to matrable, pronounced as in English “trouble,” see note 8.
 The term Beya uses two terrms, bafizi, which I take as his way of pronouncing bamwizi, plural of thieve, and baragars, stress on the last syllable, which sounds like a French loan but I could not identify it.
 Meaning: The Katanga Secession (1960-63) was declared.
 Another painter mentioned that the presence of certain birds may indicate danger.
 Behind this question is that I had only seen old women using a small gourd pipe to smoke tobacco or cigarettes.
 Though the transcript is clear I cannot make sense of this; probably I had a question but did not pursue it.
 I was not sure of the meaning of kutambuka, which must be derived from –tambua, “recognize, know again, see the meaning of, understand,” according to the Standard Dictionary.
 Beya says mafashi, places, which I take to mean certain localities, landmarks.
 Mukambo may have been mu Kambo, in Kambo. Mukambo is a town in Western Zambia.
 Beya understood that I was asking for the Swahili term for falls.
 From visiting the zoo in what was then still Elisabethville in the sixties I remembered that the two elephants had royal names, Albert and Elisabeth.
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