A conversation with Matchika, Kanyemba Yav, recorded March 10, 1974, at Kanyemba’s home in Kolwezi.
F: ulizaliwa: hapa Kolwezi?
M: ni kusema mi: nilizaliwa ku Dilolo/
F: ku Dilolo?
F: ku Dilolo: Gare?
M: Dilolo Gare/
F: mm/ wazazi balikuwa kule: kutumika kule ku: KDL ao?
M: hapana/ bazazi balikuwa tu paka hivi: bavillagois: bantu wa mugini/
F: balitoka mugini?
M: aah: kiisha kutoka kule: na vile balikuya ku 1946/
F: balifika: Kolwezi?
M: hapana/ Lubumbashi/
F: ku Lubumbashi?
M: mm/ kiisha tunaikala kule wee: kiisha tunafanya: eeh: kutoka mu: mu: [pauses] mu cinquante-deux/
M: eeh/ tunatoka kule: tunakuwa Kambove/ c’est que pale baba alikuwa engagé ku nani: ku Gécamines/
F: ku Gécamines?
F: kwa kazi gani?
F: manoeuvre/ mm/
M: kutoka kule: na vile tulikuya: ku: ku Likasi tena/
M: sawa ku Likasi tunaikala tunaikala wee: kufika mu: cinquante-sept/
M: monsieur Rolant: alikuya pale munganga bilulu/
M: ah/ yee alitafuta kuformer masomo ya dessin ile/ sasa na vile tuliingia kule: wee: wakati ya matroublés: alikimbia anakwenda/
F: monsieur Roelant?
M: eh Roland/
F: iliku: alikuwa peintre: ou quoi? non/
M: sijue kama alikuwa peintre: hapana/ yee anatafuta kuformer/
M: ah/ sasa mwisho yake: na vile alienda: tunabakia na: Kalema Léopold/
F: Kalema Léopold?
F: peintre moya?
F: ilikuwa sawa mu masomo: ao?
M: masomo eh/
F: mulikuwa ngapi?
M: tulikuwa nawaza nombre: nawaza kama quarante/
M: sasa na vile: tunaanza kunfunza pale: anaanza kutufundisha: kutufundisha wee: mwisho yake: na vile tulijua/ naanza kudessiner kidogo kidogo: kidogo/ tuseme tu kwa kujua hivi: ni don yangu tu/
M: kwa nguvu yangu yote: na vile niliweka roho yangu na mapendo mascènes inafaa: kujua hii kazi hii/
M: na vile: niko nafanya hapa sasa/
F: unafanya hapa sasa/
| 1. F: Were you born here in Kolwezi?
M: That is to say I was born in Dilolo.
F: In Dilolo?
F: In Dilolo Gare?class
M; Dilolo Gare.
F: Mm. That’s where you parents lived, working for the KDL railway company, right?
M: No. The parents were just villagers, people from the village.
F: They came from a village?
M: Yes. Then they left there and this is how they came in 1946.
F: (How) they arrived. In Kolwezi?
M: No, Lubumbashi.
F: In Lubumbashi?
M: Mm. After that we stayed there for quite a while and then we left, in fifty-two.
M: Yes, we left there and got to Kambove. That’s were father was hired by the Gécamines.
F: By the Gécamines?
F: Doing what kind of work?
M: Unskilled labor.class
F: Unskilled labor, mm.
M: Moving away from there we came to Likasi.
M: At Likasi we lived for quite a while until fifty-seven.
M: Monsieur Roland was there, (he worked as) an exterminatorclass.
M: Yes. He wanted to set up this art school (lit. school of drawing). I went there for a while until the time of unrest came and he fled and went away.
F: Monsieur Roelant?
F: Yes, Rolant.
F: Was he a painter, or what? No.
M: I don’t know whether he was a painter, he wanted to educate.
F: I see.
M: Yes. When that ended because he went away we stayed on with Kalema Léopold.
F: Kalema Léopold.
F: A painter?
F: That was like in a school, or?
M: A school, yes.
F: A school?class
F: How many were you?
M: I think there were about forty of us.
F: I see.
M: The way it was, we began to study there, he taught us for a while. In the end we had a grasp of things. Little by little I began to draw. Let’s say, I saw that this was my talent.
M: With all my strength I put my mind and devotion to it, to the scenes that were to painted, to master this kind of work.
M: And this is what I do to this day.
F: You do this to this day.
| 2. uli: kumbe wee uliziliwa mwaka gani?
M: minazaliwa na quarante-et-un/
F: quarante-et-un? quarante-et-un/ [child giggling, hushed by someone] et: [hesitating] donc eeh: uli: ulianza na masomo?
M: nilifanya masomo...
F: ... ulifwata masomo mwa: miaka ngapi? six: six années ao?
M: nilifanya six anées bule/
F: six années bule/
M: eeh/ [overlapping] ...?...
F: kiisha kwanza: kiisha kwanza hii kazi?
M: eeh: kiisha kwanza hii kazi/ minaisha kufanya masomo/
M: eeh/ kiisha yake minafanya kwa masomo ya dessin: minafanya deux ans/
F: deux ans?
M: kule ku masomo kule mbele/
M: ... kiisha minatoka: alafu: bakia fasi yangu mi mwenyewe/
F: ile wakati: s: ilikuwa mu cinquante: no: cinquante?
M: ilikuwa cinquante-huit/
F: ile wakati ulifwata?
F: na ile wakati: mulifanya nini mu masomo? paka paka dessin ao tableaux hivi: hii namna ao?
M: tulifanya masomo ya sawa masomo tu yote namna yote/ bintu yote kufunza:
M: après yake: sawa ya: ya kazi ya hii: tena tuko nafanya vile/
M: pamoya tena na modellages: uta?onga ile tunaanza ile kufanya: former sawa muntu/
F: kumbe bengine balikuwa sculpteurs: bengine peintres?
M: ndiyo deux et deux/
| 2. F: So, when were you born?
M: I was born in forty-one.
F: Forty-one? Forty-one, and [child giggling, hushed by someone]– so then you began school?
M: I went to school...
F: ...you went to school. How many years, six grades, right?class
M: I did six grades, that was it.
F: Just six grades.
M: Yes. [overlapping] ...?...
F: Then you started with this work?
M: Yes, I began with this work after I had finished school.
M: Yes, besidesclass I did two years at drawing-school.
F: Two years?
M: At that school (I mentioned) earlier.
F: I see...
M: ... after that I left and worked by myself in my own place.
F: At that time – that was in fifty, no, fifty?
M: It was in fifty-eight.
F: That was when you went (to school)?
F: And at that time, was it just drawing or (also) this kind of painting?
M: We did school, all the subjects. We studied all sorts of things.
M: After that came this kind of work, the one I am still doing.
M: Together with clay-modeling. ...?... We began to form a human figure.class
F: So, some were sculptors, others painters?
M: Yes, both.
F: I see.
F: sasa unafahamu bengine banatumikaka sasa: hata sasa? balikuwa na ile?
M: nilikuwa na moya mais: eko mbaali: yee ya kule chini/ mule mu kaLuena kule karibu na pères: kule chini/
F: moya alifwata na wee?
M: na alifwata na mi pamoya/ alafu ingine aliisha kwenda mbali/ eko ku Luena tena/
F: ku Luena?
F: na yee anatumika: ile ile kule chini: ile ile....
M: ... na yee iko paka peintre nayee vilevile/
F: ni kazi: yee mule anafanya?
M: ni kazi yetu tuko tunafanya/ hatuna kazi ingine hapana/
F: [pauses] et: munabakia bien?
M: tunabakia tu bien mais:
F: kwako: kila: kila juma: unapashwa kufanya matableaux ngapi?
M: kila juma?
M: kila juma kama nasikia nguvu: inafaa kufanya cinq/
F: cinq tableaux?
F: ben: juu ya kuvivre: enfin: juu ya: juu ya: inafaa kulya: inafaa: uko na: uko na bibi na batototo?
F: batoto ngapi?
M: batoto mbili/
F: mbili/ mm/
| 3. F: Now, do you know others who do this kind of work
right now?(Among those) who were at that (school)?
M: Yes, (I do).
F: Who are they?
M: I was in touch with one but he lives far away in Luena country, close to a mission down there.
F: Someone who went (to school) with you?
M: We went to school together. But there was another one who has moved far away. He is still in Luena.
F: In Luena?
F: And he works down there, this...
M: ... he is also a painter.
F: What he does there, is this his job?
M: It is the work we do, we don’t have any other jobs.
F: [pauses] And are you doing well?
M: We are doing well – however.
F: I see.
F: In your case, how many paintings do you have to produce per week?
M: Every week?
M: If I feel up to it I should do five.
F: Five paintings?
F: (What I mean is) to survive, you have to eat, you have to – do you have a wife and children?
F: How many children?
M: Two children.
F: Two, mm.
| 4. na kwa kuuzisha: u: unauzisha wapi?
M: kuuzisha niko paka na baclients yangu Metrekat/
F: kule ku...
M: huku/ camp ya Metrekat eh/
F: aah/ bo banauza?
M: kila siku/
F: kila siku?
M: sawa vile minaofanya: iko paka na commande/ minaofanya minaokupeleka/ sibiishake hivi ovyo ovyo hapana/
F. paka na commande?
M: paka na commande/
F: mais ile commandes unapata namna gani?
M: ile commandes?
M: asema commandes yangu minapata juu ya bintu yangu muzuri: minafanya napenta za...?.. wantu/ njo pale na yee anaona kama iko inamupendeza: ananipa commande/
F: bo bana: banakujua kule ku Métalkat?
M: banani: bananijua sana/
F: mm/ na ile banacommander sana sana: ni nini? ni: kabila ya....
M: ile banacommander zaidi: banacommander sawa ile Ngongo Lutete:
F: Ngongo Lutete...
M: ya baanciens: zamani: ya bantu ya zamani bakubwa/
M: vile banatafuta bo kuona sawa yote histoire ilipita zamani/
M: na ingine iko hapa natumiaka nafanya hii/ iko: ya gani: ya usine zamani ya cha kwetu/
F: [searching] ya: ya: kuvula: nani: ya ku: oui oui...
M: ile inafanya [demonstrates] tuffu tuffu: tuffu tuffu....
F: ...kufanya: kufanya: mikuba?
M: aah: ya kufanya mikuba/
M: ile niko nafanyaka ile: tena bantu mingi banapenda kabisa/
| 4. And how about selling, where do you sell (them)?
M: I only sell to my customers at Métalkat.
F: Over there at...
M: Here in the Métalkat workers’ settlement.
F: I see. And they buy?
M: Every day.
F: Every day?
M: The way its goes, I only work on order. I make (the paintings) and deliver them. I don’t finish stuff that then lies around.
F: Only on order?
M: Only on order.
F: But how you get those orders?
M: Those orders?
M: I get my orders because my things are beautiful. I see to it that I paint ...?... (for the) people. That is why, when a person likes what he sees, he places an order with me.
F: They know you over there at Métalkat?
M: They know me very well.
F: Mm. And the kind (of painting) they order most?
M: Above all, they order (paintings) like this Ngongo Lutete.
F: Ngongo Lutete...
M:...about the old-timers long ago, about big people from the past.
M: What they are after is to see the whole history that happened long ago.
M: And there this other (theme) I am working on, our traditional kind of factory.
F: [searching] A [place where they] forged – how to you call it? – yes, yes...
M: The thing [demonstrate] that goes tuffu tuffu: tuffu tuffu....class
F: To make (copper) ingots?
M: That’s it, to make ingots.
F: I see.
M: That is one theme I do regularly and many people really like it.
F: They like it?
| 5. F: mm/ sasa: ni wee moya una: unauzishaka kule: ao ba:
ba: peintres bengine banafikaka?
M: ni paka mi moya tu/ na ule peintres wengine tena ...?.../ bengine beko nakwenda: lakini: bintu yabo...?...hapendeze/
F: banapita tu:
M: banapita tu: banaangaria tu: mais: furaha ya kuuza hapana/
F: mm/ sasa: kwa: unafahamu bapeintres ingine ku ville: kule ku cités ao ku ville?
M: ku cités/ minamufahamu/
F: banani? ka fu: kama kwa mufano?
M: kwa mufano minayua ao Kabinda:
M: kwa mufano minayua ao ku Tshonga/
F: Tshonga. Tshonga?
F: Tshonga: ku cité?
M: kiisha yake tena: [interrupts himself] sawa bale bawili njo minafahamu kabisa kabisa/
M: alafu haba bengine: haba mu mampembeni mi hapana yua muzuri/
M: et puis: minayua moya kule [with emphasis] yulu kule karibu na plaine d’aviation: kule ku kilima kule:
M: kuko Mukonga/ eh?
F: Mukonga? wee unafahamu?
M: aah/ [clears his throat] et puis minafahamu tena mungine: yee eko mu kule yulu: Mujinga/
M: aah/ alafu...
F: ku Caroline kule?
M: hapana: Caroline hapana/ paka humu mu plaine: mais: nyumba yake mi hapana kuyua/ minaisha kushikia tu vile/
M: na minaona tableaux yake eko nafanya/
F: hii signature yake/
M: eeh: minaona na tableaux yake/
M: alafu yee anafanya paka kichwa: yee hapana kuyua fanya ile après/
F: paka kichwa?
M: paka kichwa bule/
F: mais: mu: mu Lubumbashi: unafahamu bapeintres?
M: mu Lubumbashi/ [pauses] alafu: kule minafahamu muntu paka moya: Pilipili: njo ule minayua/
F: Pilipili wee unajua?
M: aah/ alafu haba bengine mi hapana yua hapana/ beko mingi tu/ mais: kujua: unasikiaka ku bantu majina/
F: ...kujua: kujua Pilipili: unamujua namna gani?
M: Pilipili: njo kusema: tulibaka naye karibu/ na nyumba yetu/
M: ku Lubumbashi/
F: ku Lubumbashi?
M: mu quartier: mu nani: mu Kenia/
F: mu Kenia?
F: alikuwa mu Kenia? yee alikuwa mu Kenia/ yee alikuwa mu Kenia/ Pilipili?
F: kumbe ulia: ile ile wakati ulikuwa mutoto wee?
M: ah ile wakati nilikuwa mutoto/
F: kumbe ulienda: ulipita kule kuangaria vile anafanya?
M: eeh/ maneno akili yangu nilipenda ile kazi: c’est pourquoi nilianza kufanya kule na bo banatumika: minapita kuangaria/
F: mais: kutoka hii waka: wakati: ulimuona tena? uli...
M: mi hapana tembea tena kwenda kule/
M: tangu shiku mingi kabisa/
F: mm/ bengine: eh: bali: ba: si njo bengine balifunda: kule ku Likasi: beko sasa mu: mu Lubumbashi/ na nani? >Kabeya: Kabeya moya: Kabeya?
M: Kabeya: Kabeya/ [indicating he does not know him]
| 5. F: Mm. Now, are you the only one who sells in that
place or are other painters coming by?
M: It’s only me. About those other painters, there are some who go around but their stuff is not popular (lit. does not please).
F: They just come through.
M: They come through, (people) look but they don’t feel the pleasure that would make them buy (a painting).
F: Mm. Now, do you know other painters in town, there in the townships or in town?
M: In the townships, I know some.class
F: Who are they? For example?
M: For example, I know Kabinda,
F: For example, I know Tshonga’s place.
F: Tshonga. Tshonga?
F: Tshonga. In the township?
M: Then there are [interrupts himself] --those two I know very well.
M: But those others who live here and there I don’t know well.class
M: And then, I know one (painter who lives) way up there, close to the airport, on a hill up there.
M: A certain Mukonga lives there, right?
F: Mukonga? You know him?
M: Yes. [clears his throat] And then I know another one. He (lives) up there, Mujinga (is his name).
M: Yes, but...
F: At (the squatters’ town) Caroline there?
M: No, not (at) Caroline, just here, near the airport, but I don’t know his house. I just heard (of him).
M: And I see the paintings he does.
F: His signature.
M: Yes, I see his paintings.
F: I see.
M: He only does portraits. He does not know how to do other subjects.
F: Only portraits?
M: Just portraits.
F: But in Lubumbashi, do you painters?
M: In Lubumbashi [pauses], there I know just one person, Pilipili, he is the one I know.
F: You know Pilipili?
M: Yes. But those others I don’t know. There are many of them. But, as to knowing (them), one hears names mentioned by people.
F: ... about knowing Pilipili, how come you know him?
M: Pilipili, we lived close to him, our house (was close to his).
M: In Lubumbashi.
F: In Lubumbashi?
M: In – what was it again – in Kenia township.
F: In Kenia?
F: He lived in Kenia? He lived in Kenia. Pilipili lived in Kenia?
F: So, at that time, you were a child?
M: Ah, at that time I was a child.
F: So you went by his place to watch him working?
M: Yes. Because in my mind I would have liked (to do) this work. That is why I began to hang out there, go by and watch.
F: But since that time, did you see him again? Did you...
M: I never went back there.
M: Not in a long time.
F: Mm. (How about) others, where there not others who studied there in Likasi and who are now in Lubumbashi? Kabeya, a certain Kabeya?
M: Kabeya, Kabeya. [indicating that he does not know him]
F: sawa wee: ku mawazo: ku: ku mawazo yenu: munaona kama ni: hapa Kolwezi: muko ngapi? bapeintres/
M: bapeintres sawa vile minakuonyesha asema ba...
F: ...sawa vile: sawa vile: wee/ sawa vile: bapeintres: banafanya tu kazi ya peinture:
M: kwasipo kazi ingine?
M: alafu mina: minafahamu paka miye hapa:
M: humu: na karafiki yangu: yee ni Kasongo: ule minasema eko mu Caroline:
M: après yake: na: bwana moya: ule minakuelezea eko mu cité: Kabinda:
M: kiisha yake: na: ule minawazia mu ...?...[Kalin] mukongo: kunaisha/
M: hakuna kazi ingine ile tunatumika: kazi yetu: tunaikalaka paka penti/
F: mm/ mais bengine banafanya kazi ingine:
F: na tena penti?
F: beko bamingi?
M: alafu bale: minayua paka moya: paka Tshonga: yo ile minayua/
| 6. F: If you think about it how many of you painters are
here in Kolwezi?
M: Painters, as I explained to you, there are...
F: ... (what I mean is) painters like you whose only work is painting.
M: Without another job?
M: In that case I only know of myself here.
M: In this place. And then there is this little friend of mine, Kasongo, the one I talked about. He lives in Caroline.
M: Besides him, there is one gentleman about whom I told you that he lives in the township, Kabinda.
M: And then the one who, I think, lives back there ...?..., that’s all.
F: That’s all.
M: There is no other job we do, we have always been working only as painters.
F: Mm. But there are others who do have another job.
F: Besides painting.
F: Are they many?
M: I know only one of them, Tshonga, he is the one I know.
F: sasa: uko na: na muntu ya ku: ku: kusaidia wee? kufanya cadres: ao: non?
F: ...yote [overlapping]...
M: ... minafanya mi moya/
F: na: ile toiles: ni paka mi: mifuku ya: ile ya...
M: [overlapping] iko ya bunga: ndiyo/
F: mm/ na peinture nauzi: unauza kule ku: ville ao?
M: minauza ku ville/
F: peinture ya: ni paka peinture ya mafuta?
M: maneno peinture ingine yee hapana inaonekana/
M: nauza paka hii peinture ya mafuta hii/
F: ah: ndiyo: ya mafuta/ mm/ aah: macroquis: una: unafanya tena: be: sawa vile banafanya na: a: encre de chine etcetera/ uko: uko... >[sounds of sorting paintings]
M: encre de chine hapana/ nafanya paka na crayon/
F: ah: paka: paka: [take up a painting] ni tableaux hii/ très bien/
| 7. F: Now, do you have someone to help you? Making
stretchers or what not. No? You make...
F: ...everything [overlapping]...
M: ... I make them myself.
F: And those canvasses, they are just bags, the ones...
M: [overlapping] the ones used for flour, yes.
F: Mm. And paint you buy in town, right?
M: I buy it in town.
F: The paints (you use), are they only oil paints?
M: Because other paints do not come out (lit. do not appear).
M: I only buy these oil paints.
F: Ah, yes, oils. Mm. Lets see, about sketches, you make them the way this is usually done, using China ink, and so on. Do you...[sounds of sorting paintings]class
M: Not China ink, I do them with a pencil.
F: I see, only (with a pencil) [take up a painting], as in this painting. Very well.
bon/ utuelezee: sasa hii: maana yake ya kila: kila tableau/ sasa tunaanza:
hivi: sawa tunaona nani? mugini?
M: pale ni kusema ni mugini:
M: ile wakati: wale wabwana walikwenda mu chasse/ mu kutafuta nyama/
M: bon/ sasa: mama alibakia eko natwanga: na nduku yake pale: eko nanyongorola/
M: mais: akili yabo: iko ku ile kazi beko nafanya/ wee hapana fahumu ile inakuya ku: mukongo/
F: [overlapping response] mukongo/
M: alafu sasa ule kule ku mukongo: bale batoto baliisha kuona bazazi yabo banakuya na ile nyama/ vile vile mbio kwanza kwenda kukimbia/
M: kwenda kulamikia ba: zazi haba nakuya na chakula: na nyama/
F: mm/ mm: très bien/
| 8. Fine. Now explain to us the meaning of each painting.
To start with this one, whatclass do we see? A village?
M: (What you see) is a village.
M: (It shows) the moment when those men went hunting, looking for game.
M: Fine. The woman stayed behind and is pounding (corn) while her sister over there is stirring (the pot).
M: Their attention is on the work they are doing. You (probably) are not familiar with what is happening there in the background.
F: [overlapping] In the background.
M: Now, those children there in the background have caught sight of there parents returning with game. So they quickly run off.
M: To greet the parents who are coming back with food, with game.
F: Mm. Mm, very well.
ingine: [rummaging] non: [pick up painting] bon/
M: pale naenda kusema: huyu bwana huyu: Ngongo Lutete/
M: kazi yake: alikuwa nabemba: alibamba nakwenda paka kubeba banani: batumwa/
M: huyu: ya kuua/ njo kazi yake alikuwa naye pale: nazani ni pale yee mwenyewe eko pa kati pale/
M: ule njo kusema: ni secrétaire wake ule: kazi yake paka kuua bantu/
F: kuua bantu?
M: ah/ sasa huyu: yeye eko paka anachunga/ eko sawa policier kwake/
F: ile ka: ka: ku mushoto?
M: ...huyu eko: eko sawa...
M: ...soldat tena vile vile/
F: aah/ yee alikuwa na: kabila gani: Ngongo Lutete?
M: yee alikuwa muTetela/
F: makali/ sawa ile: sawa ile: nani: kinywa yake:
M: hh [chuckle]
F: makali eh? [laughs]
F: sawa chui/ bon/ Ngongo Lutete/
| 9. Another one [rummaging], no, (this one) [pick up a
M: I’ll tell you, this gentleman is Ngongo Lutete.class
M: His business was to lure people, capture them, and then take them away as slaves.
M: He was a killer, that one. There (you see him) at work, I think he is the one there in the middle.
M: That one, let’s say, is his secretary. His business is killing people.
F: Killing people?
M: Yes. Now this one, he is just a guard, something like his policeman.
F: That one on the left?
M: That one is like...
M: ... a soldier.
F: I see. What was Nongo Lutete’s group?
M: He was a Tetela.
F: A Tetela?
F: (He looks) ferocious. His mouth...
F: Ferocious, right? [laughs]
F: Like a leopard. Alright. (That was) Ngongo Lutete.
[pick up another painting] ahaah/ hi njo?
M: ile ni ile wakati ile tulikuwa mu: mu: mu utumwa: wananaza kutupika fimbo namuna hii/
F: eeh/ kama bantu banaomba hii: banasema namna gani?
M: wanasema: ni wakati ile tulikuwa mu utumwa/
F: ndiyo donc: mais: si: si njo: si njo bana: banaomba: colonie belge?
M: ahah/ colonie belge/
F: ao fimbo/
M: iko vile/
F: ao fimbo: ao fimbo/
M: iko vile/ bantu lakini banaomba banasema temps belge: wakati ya waBelges/
F: wakati ya waBelges/
F: vile wanafanya/
| 10. [pick up another painting]class Aha. This is?
M: This is about the time when we were under slavery and they would beat us with a whip, like this.
F: When people ask for this (painting) how do they call it.
M: This one?
M: They say it was the time when we were under slavery.
F: Yes. (But) then, don’t they ask for a Colonie Belge?
M: Yes, Colonie Belge.
F: Or The Whip.
M: That’s right.
F: Or The Whip, the Whip.
M: That’s right but, then again, they ask for it calling it the Belgian times, the time of the Belgians.
F: The Time of the Belgians.
F: That’s what they do.
sasa: bon: ça va: [pick up another painting] ingine:[pauses] aha/
M: pale: ni wakati wa: wa vita: wale wa gendarmerie Katangais: walikwenda ku fasi ya Baruba: ingia mule kufanya couvre-feu mule mu mugini: après yake bale banashimama kule ku mulangu wachunga yule atatoka: kumufunga pale pale/
M: na vile balianza nabo bugomvi: beko napikana: na bon/ c’est que huyu ni chef yabo huyu/ yee huku chini: nayee ile kitu ku mukono/
M: aah/ iko dawa yake/
F: aah: ile: chini?
M: ah yee iko paka naye chini/
F: anataka: nini: ni dawa ya ...?...
M: iko dawa ya: bugomvi ya kupikana: maneno bo: bo hapana kuona na yee/
M: kuongopa na kuona bo mu karibu hapana/
F: hii ilikuwa: ilikuwa wapi?
M: hii ilikuwa ku Kabondo Dianda/
F: Kabondo Dianda?
F: Mm. Kabondo Dianda?
M: Kabondo Dianda/ fasi ya baLuba/
F: ndiyo: shee tulipita kule/ Kabondo Dianda/
| 11. Now, alright, that’s okclass [pick up another painting]. Another one. [pauses] Aha.
M: There we have the time of war, the Katanga Gendarmerie had moved to a place in Luba country. When they entered the village they declared a curfew. So the ones that stand there by the doors (of the huts) are going to keep whoever comes out and lock him up right away.
M: That is how they started a fight with them, exchanging blowsclass. Alright. This one is their chief, the one down here, and he has something in his hand.
M: Yes. This is his magic charm.
F: I see. This one, at the bottom.
M: Yes, he has it with him, down there on the bottom.
F: What is he up to, what is the charm for?
M: It is a fighting charm and they (the enemies) don’t see that he has it with him.
M: They don’t fear it because they are not close enough to see (the charm).
F: Where was this?
M: This was at Kabondo Dianda.
F: Mm. Kabondo Dianda?
F: Kabondo Dianda?
M: Kabondo Dianda, a place in Luba country.
F: Yes (I know) we went by there. Kabondo Dianda.class
bon/ tena: [pick up another painting] ile:
M: ile ni kusema: ni mutoni moja kidogo hivi: ou bien mutoto naye kidogo: yee eko nakwenda kutembea kule: kiisha wakati: anakwenda kupiga wandege/
F: kupiga wandege/
F: kupiga wandege/
F: ni bulalo/
M: ni bulalo mm/
F: bulalo: na mutoni: sawa: paka paysage ao:
F: bantu banauza bya: bya mingi hii?
M: eeh: beko nauza: bale banataka yee/ kumbe ingine: bo hapana taka ile ya bantu: wanatafuta paka paysage bule/
F: mm/ mara ingine unauzisha: kwa bazungu?
M: ndiyo/ niko nauzisha ku bazungu/
F: wapi? mu ville?
M: mu ville/
F: kumbe unapashwa kutembea na tableaux yako?
M: kama: ule ananiomba commande/ minaenda kufanya/ sawa kama minakuwa na...
F: mais bata: bataomba commande: haba: bo bata: batakufahamu namna gani?
M: kwa kuweza kunifahamu?
M: maneno kila muntu anaenda kupita na kitu yake/ ku ule aliomba/ mara ingine kuko munzangu: mutu meushi ule aliniomba/
M: minasema nibebe niende naye/ saa ingine yee anaona kama roho yake inapenda ananishimamisha/
M: bon/ anasema na mi natafuta quartiers yote ile minayua aseme muntu gani anifansie hivi? et puis minabeba commande yake ile anaomba nimupelekee/
F: mm/ mm/
| 12. Fine. And then [pick up another painting],class this...
M: This (shows) a stream or rather a small child taking a walk there. After a while, he is going to shoot some birds.
F: Shoot some birds.
F: Shoot some birds.
F: This is a bridge.
M: A bridge, yes.
F: A bridge, a stream, it’s like a landscape (painting), right?
F: Do people buy this a lot?
M: Yes, they buy, those who want it. Then there are others who don’t want (paintings) with people, they only look for a landscape.
F: Mm. Do you sometimes sell to Europeans?
M: Yes, I sell to Europeans.
F: Where, here in town?
M: In town.
F: So you have to walk around with your paintings?
M: When a person places an order I am going to do (the painting). If I have some...
F: But how are they going to place an order? How will they know of you?
M: Know of me?
M: Because everyone delivers his stuff to the one who ordered it. Sometimes that is someone like me, a black person, who asked me (for a painting).class
M: I tell myself, I am going to pick up (paintings) and go around with them. I may happen then that someone sees (a painting) that pleases him and he stops me.
M: Fine. He says, I have been searching all over town to find out who could do one like this for me. So then I take the order he asked for and bring it to him.
F: Mm. Mm.
bon: tuendelee/ [pick up painting]
M: vile vile: iko paka Ngongo Lutete/
F: aah/ njo ingine ya Nongo Lutete: na tuliona:
M: kiisha yake: iko baLuba vile vile/ baJeunesses/ mu fashi ya Luena ile:
M: kwanza kupika wao: kwanza kupika ni: mikuki iko: ku mashua:
M: vile vile banaanza kombana tena pale na bagendarmes/
F: mm/ ile wakati ya:
M: ya vita/
| 13. Alright, let’s go on. [pick up painting]
M: This is still another Ngongo Lutete.
F: I see. It’s another painting of Ngongo Lutete. And we (already) saw (one like this).
M: After that comes another one about the Luba, the (so-called) Jeunesses. That was at Luena.
F: I see.
M: When they began to attack the train with their spears.
M: (Showing) how they got into a scrap with the gendarmes.
F: Mm. During the time...
M: ...of war.
F: sasa: kwa mawazo yako: unaona: unaona namna gani? bantu banaomba hii
tableau juu ya nini?
M: banaomba hata ma: matableaux hii: ni juu ya ma: ya: kuwaza bitu bilipitaka mbele na kuonyesha batoto: angaria ni vile tuliteswa: angarie ni hivi: sasa angaria namna twiko/
F: mm/ wee unaona: [pauses] balianza kuuza hii bato: hii tableaux: zamani: ao ni paka ya sasa?
M: hii? banaanza kuuza hii tu: zamani/ minaisha kufanya ...?...
F: ... hata tableau ma: enfin: tableaux ingine?
M: matableaux ingine? ndiyo banauza...
F: zamani biliku: zamani tulitembea ku: hata mi nilitembea tu tulikuwa na: tulikuwa na: ku manyumba yabo: mi sikuona kitu/ paka: paka: ile: nani: nani: ile sacré coeur: vierge Marie: unaona ile: ile?
M: minayua: mm/
F: mais sasa: minaona bamingi beko na tableaux/ balianza kuuza tableaux sawa wakati gani?
M: aah ile: sienee kufahamu/ nasikia wakati ingine: ile wakati vile minasema nilikuwa naona waPilipili: beko nafanya vile ni: wakati moya: siku kuisha kupita mingi/ nawaza pale nichingali: sijazariwa/ kulikuwa bapeintre bengine: mara ingine beko nafanya/
M: mi hapana yua/
F: mm/ na wee ulianza zaidi ya kuuzisha mingi: ulianza mu: mu quand? mu septante: ao?
M: hapana/ mi njo kusema: ya kweli mitaweza kusema/ kuuzisha mingi: minaanza mu: cinquante-neuf: soixante/
M: aah/ kwenda kuuzisha Kambove: ...?...
F: ku soixante? kweli?
M: mm/ mm/
| 14. F: Now, when you think about it, how do you see this?
Why do people ask for this painting.
M: This one?
M: When they ask for this kind of paintings it is to think about the events of the past and to show them to their children: Look, this is how we suffered, Look, this is how it was then and how we live now.
F: Mm. In your view, [pauses] did they start buying these paintings long ago or is this something recent?
M: This? They began to buy these (paintings) long ago. I already made...?...
F: ... even the otherclass kinds of paintings?
M: Other paintings? Yes, they bought them...
F: In the past we would go around, or rather when I used to go around (visiting) peoples’ homes I never saw anything like it. Just (images of ) of the Sacred Heart, the Virgin Mary – you see (what I mean)?
M: I know, mm.
F: Whereas now I observe that many people own paintings. When was it that they began to buy paintings?
M: Ah, well, I don’t know enough about that. I heard about another time, the time I told you about when I observed the likes of Pilipili, when this sort of thing was done, at a certain period. This was long ago. I think it was before I was born. There were other painters then, perhaps they did (this sort of painting).
M: I just don’t know.
F: Mm. And when did you yourself begin to sell quantities, in the seventies, or when?
M: No (not then). As far as I am concerned, to tell you the truth, I began to sell quantities in fifty-nine, sixty.
M: Yes, (that was when) I began to sell in Kambove...?...
F: In sixty, really?
M: Mm, mm.
F: sasa wee unaona: kazi ya: ya baba ile: ya baba: Kanyemba/ be: muko peintres/
mbili/ uli: uliisha kuona: matableaux yake?
M: minaisha kuona/
F: sasa: sa: ni mufano moya/ sawa wee: ku mawazo yako unaona munaachana namna gani?
M: kule tunaachana?
M: minasema tunaichana ku mutumikio/ nayee na mutumikio yake: na mi mu tumikio yangu/
F: oui oui: mais: namna gani? minaona kama munaachana mais: sawa wee unaona namna gani?
M: [pauses] mm/ kule kuachana: tunaachana mi hapana yua vizuri/ minayua aseme tunaachana kwa kazi/
F: bon/ aah: [pauses] wee unona kama kila: kila peintre: eko na namna yake ya: ya kupenta/
F: sawa: wee: namna yako: zaidi zaidi ni nini? wee unaachana na bengine namna gani? ki: si njo kila: kila peintre na:
M: na style yake/
F: na style yake?
F: sasa style yako/
M: style yangu: miye tunaachana maneno mi hapana kufanya décoration pale/
F: sawa baba ile:
M: yee anafanya décoration/
F: décoration/ mm/ wee unafanya?
M: mi minafanya tu paka hivi tu/
F: kama unasema décoration: ingine ni nini?
M: eh? [chuckles]
F: ingine ni nini?
M: ingine: kuko ingine ile yasipo kufanya: décoré: njo ile/
F: njo ile?
F: paka peinture hii/
M: paka peinture bule/
| 15. F: Now, how do you see the work of baba here, baba
Kanyemba. Both of you are painters. Have you seen his paintings?
M: I have seen them.
F: (I have some questions), for example, when you think about it, in what ways are you different?
M: Where we are different?
M: I say we differ in our clientele. He has his clientele, I have mine.class
F: Yes, yes, but how? I see that you are different but how, in your view?
M: [pauses] Mm. I don’t really know how (exactly) we differ. I know that we are different with regard to the work (we do).
F: Alright. [pauses] So, in your view, every painter has his own way of painting.
F: Take yourself, what is distinctive about your manner, how do you differ from others? Doesn’t every painter have...
M:... his style?
F: His own style?
F: Now, (what is) your style?
M: About my style, I differ from others in that I don’t do decoration.
F: I see.
F: If you take baba (Kanyemba) here...
M: He does decoration.
F: Decoration, mm. And what is it you do?
M: I just do plain work.
F: If you say decoration, what is the other (style)?
M: What? [chuckles]
F: What is the other?
M: The other, that is another (manner), one without doing decoration, that’s it.
F: That’s it?
F: Just this (kind of) painting.
M: Just plain painting.
| 16. F: mais: kama unaona ma: tableaux ba: ya bengine/
bengine ni mubaya: bengi: beninge muzuri/ mais ku: pa: kujua zaidi: ni
muzuri: ao ni mubaya: ni kujua namna gani?
M: mitaweza kuangaria: wakati ingine: bila kufanya ile kintu: perspective: mule ndani: nitaangaria kintu: kintu kiko kya mbali na kya mu karibu: ile mitaweza kuyua asema kintu iko namna gani/
F: mm/ [pauses] perspective?
F: na tena couleur?
M: na couleur tena vile vile/
| 16. F: But when you look at paintings by other (artists),
some are bad, others are good. How exactly does one know what is good and
what is bad?
M: That’s (what you want to know)?
M: I could take a look and sometimes (I may find) that perspective is lacking. Something that should be far away appears close by, this is how I can know the quality of a painting.
F: Mm. [pauses] Perspective?
F: And what about color?
M: Also color.
F: kazi ya peintre: inaachana na: na kazi ingine?
M: inaachana sana/
F: [pauses] namna gani?
M: inaachana maneno kazi yetu hii: iko kazi moya nguvu sana/ iko kazi paka na muntu mwenye kutuliza roho njo ayue kuumba: kutumikia hii kazi/ mais: kama uko kwa wayawaya: mu uvivu: wee hapana weza kufanya/
F: oui: mais bantu banasema: bantu wote banasema: [claps] eeh: ile ni peintre: mulofa tu: a: hatumike kazi hii: kazi muzuri/
M: ndiyo: kwa mawazo ya bantu banasema vile/
F: sawa vile/
M: sasa kwa mi menyewe mwinye kazi: minasema ni kazi niko nafanya/
F: mm/ [pause] ni kazi gani? sawa: bengine banatumika kazi ya Gécamines: ao Métalkat: njo kazi yako?
M: hapana/ ile iko sawa: ku roho ya muntu vile anataka/
M: mara ingine: anataka ile kazi ya kutumika namuna ile: Gécamines ao wapi: aikuwe yee mu mapendo yake/ alafu sawa mi: na mi hapana taka vile hapana/ minapenda eko kazi Mungu aliisha kunipa: minayua ao kipande: wee mwisho inafaa: kuendelea tu mwisho yake: mi hapana yua [claps] vile itakuwaka mbele/
F: [pauses] mm/ [pauses] kumbe hawezi: hawezi kuacha hii kazi?
M: mi hapana kuacha hapana/ kama nilikuwa kuacha: kama niliisha kuacha zamani/
| 17. F: Is a painter’s work different from other work?
M: Very much so.
F: [pauses] How?
M: It is different because the work we do is a very difficult kind of work. It is work only for a person who is capable of calming down his soul so he can be creative and is able to do this work. If you are given to dissipation and idleness you can’t do it.
F: Yes, but people say, everyone says, [claps] ah, that one is a painter, just a loafer, he doesn’t hold a decent job.
M: Yes, they think and talk like that.
M: Then I, the one who does this work, say that this is my job.
F: Mm. [pause] What kind of job is it? Is it like the work others do at Gécamines or Métalkat? Is that what your work is like?
M: No. It as a matter of a persons’ soul, of what he wants.
M: It may be that he does not really love the kind of job he does at Gécamines or wherever. But with me it’s not like that. I love (it ) because it is the work that God gave me. Even if I am not perfect at it (lit. if I know only part of it). It is your destiny, a matter of making progress toward your destiny, even [claps] if I don’t know beforehand how things will turn out.
F: [pauses] Mm. [pauses] So you could not abandon this work?
M: I could not abandon it. If I were to abandon it I would have done it long ago.
F: unaona kama: kama: sasa: mutendelea? bantu bata: batauza: batauza ya
F: ...zamani ba: balikuwa kuuza mingi ya: kupita ya sasa: ao sawa una: unaona namna gani?
M: alafu minakumbuka aseme sasa beko nauza kupita ya zamani/
F: kupita ya zamani?
M: eeh/ maneno ya zamani nilikuwa nauzisha ovyo: mi hapana uzisha commandes hapana/
M: macommandes non/
F: sababu ya nini? bo: [pauses] una: unawaza namna gani? sawa: sawa: ingine bana: banauza mingi sasa?
M: wa kuuza mingi: juu inakuwa ni commandes: tena banaona na kazi yangu: iko muzuri/
F: mm/ kumbe: kumbe: [addressing Kanyemba] wee unaona: unaona vile baba? bantu: bantu: bantu banaanza kuuza mingi:
K: ndiyo: sawa minaona kama bantu sasa banaanza kuuza penti zaidi/ ni juu ya nini? kwa sababu bantu ba sasa banaachana bantu ya mbele/ juu bantu ya sasa beko na manyumba: beko na salon:
K: sasa hii ni bintu yataka kupanga: ku salon/ ni paka bantu sasa beko na fauteuil muzuri: [claps] sasa banapenda kutengenea kibambasi/
K: et puis banaenda kuuza sasa/ mais ile wakati wa mbele bantu habakuwa na salon: eko na chambre moya:
K: hakuna namna ya kuweza kuuza tableaux/ tena na makuta ilikuwa kidogo sana: haikuwa namna ya muntu kuweza kuuza tableaux/
K: par example sawa ile wakati wa mbele beko wagagner trois cents Francs/ par mois/ ao trois cents cinquante: par mois/
K: mais lakini: tableau na iko wakati wa mbele ilikuwa bei/ tulikuwa tunauzisha mille cinq cents: deux milles/
K: sasa kama muntu eko na trois cents cinquante: eko nguvu sana kwa yee kuuza kintu ya...?.../ na sisi bapeintres tena vile vile hatuna tunapenta kuuzisha na bantu kwa sababu vile tulisema: bantu habana ma...
M: habana na Makuta/
K: [overlapping] habana na Makuta/
K: tulikwenda kuuzisha paka ku bazungu/
F: sasa bazungu banenda: munapashwa kuuzisha na kwa bantu/
F: na bo banauza?
M: na bo banauza kiloko/
F: bo banauza/
| 18. F: Do you feel you are making progress these days?
Will people by quantities of paintings, or how is it going?
F: Was it that people bought a lot in the past, more than today, or how do you see it?
M: Well, when I think about it, nowadays they by more than in the past.
F: More than in the past?
M: Yes. Because in the past I sold now and then. I did not sell (paintings) on order.
M: Not on order.
F: Why is that? They [pauses] – what do you think. Is it that some of them now buy several (lit. many) paintings?
M: About buying several, that depends on the orders. And then they see also that my work is good.
M: It pleases them.
F: Mm. So [addressing Kanyemba] is this how you see it, baba? That people begin to buy many (paintings)?
K: Yes. In my view, people nowadays really buy many paintings. Why? Because the difference between people now and people in the old days is that today they have houses and a living room.
K: Now these (paintings) are thinks they like to put in their salon, Nowadays people have a nice armchair [claps] and they like to embellish the wall.
K: So they are going to buy (paintings) nowadays. But in those old times people did not have a salon. A person would live in a one-room house.
K: No way they would be able to buy paintings. Also, there was very little money, a person simply could not buy paintings.
K: For instance, in those days they made 300 Francs, a month. Or 350 a month.
K: But in those days a painting was expensive. We used to sell one at 1500, 2000.
K: Now, if a person makes 350 it is really difficult for him to buy something ...?... And we painters no longer paint for selling to Africans because, as we said, Africans don’t have...
M: ... have no money.
K: [overlapping] ... they have no money.
K: So we began to sell only to expatriates.
F: Now, that the expatriates are leaving you are forced to sell to Africans.
F: And are they buying?
M: They buy little.
F: They buy.
mais: [pause] sawa ulisema: eh: eh: mbele/ mwee mulikuwa hata hata mascul:
M: ndiyo: mulikuwa basculpteurs/
F: mwenye: mwenye kuchonga: aah: miti ao: mwenye: nani?
M: na udongo pamoya/
F: [overlapping] udongo/ mm/ sawa vile mina: minaona sasa: bantu banauza tableaux: mais: hawauzake zaidi: sculpture: eh? ile zanamu ao: hawauzake/
M: ndiyo ile: maneno banaona: ni kintu moya sawa cha bule bule/ yee hapana kujua muzuri aseme ni kintu gani/ yee hapana yua maana yake ni nini ya hii kintu/ banaona iko paka kintu bule/
F: [addressing Kanyemba] wee unaona: unaona vile?
F: ... ile: ulisikia ile: ile: nili: nili: niliuliza?
F: sababu ya nini: bantu banauza tableaux: mais: sawa vile minaona: banauz: banauz: banauza: mais: kiloko/
F: ile zanamu ao/
K: kwa sababu mafaa ya bantu zamani:
K: balikuwa nafanya ku nyumba: anakamata photos/ eh?
K: anakamata photos ya batoto: ya bibi: ya banduku: anaweka ku cadre/
K: sasa: hii wakati wa sasa: bantu ba sasa banaangaria kama ile: haiko muzuri/ ni pale banauza tableaux/ sasa ile ya kuchonga:
K: haibafurahishi zaidi/ mais hii tableaux banaweka pahali ya ile ma: maphoto/
K: ndiyo/ kwa lakini kile ya kuchonga: paka bale benye kujua bataweza kuuza kamoya: anaweka hata juu ya kabati: hata juu ya radio:
M: [overlapping] mm/
K: inaisha/ mais lakini banapenda zaidi tableau kwa sababu sawa ni photo/
F: et sababu gani habapendi tena: photo?
K: ni maendeleo sasa: bantu banaanza kuendelea/
F: photo: si ni: sasa banaona ka: s: ni kintu ya zamani:
K: banaona kama photo: inafaa kubakia na photo hata moya mu chambre à coucher:
K: ao ku salon: moya tu ya madame yake ao ya mariage/
K: kuliko kuweka ile macadres mingi mingi ya bantu ya famille: mi sibaone/ sasa hii minawaza kama banaanza kuuza tableaux: inakuya ma: maendeleo sasa/
F: c’est ça/
| 19. But [pause] as you said before, (at school) there were
also sculptors among you, right?
M: Yes, there were sculptors.
F: Those that would carve wood, or those that – who were they?
M: (Those) who worked with clay.
F: [overlapping] Clay. Mm. What I observe is that people buy paintings but not much sculpture, right? They don’t often buy those statues.
M: Yes. Because they regard (a sculpture) as a thing without value. Such a person does not really know what this object is about, its meaning. So they look at it as something worthless.
F: [addressing Kanyemba] Is this how you see it, too?
F: Did you understand what I asked?
F: Why do people buy paintings but, as far as I can see, they rarely buy...
K: Because, in the past, among the things people...
K: ...used when they furnished a home, a person would take photographs, right?
M: One would take photographs of the children, of the wife, of relatives and put them in a frame.
K: Nowadays, people no longer consider them beautiful and therefore they buy paintings. Now, about those carvings.
K: They don’t really enjoy them. But the paintings they put up instead of photographs.
K: Yes. But as to carvings only those who are knowledgeable may buy a small one to be placed on a cupboard or even on the radio.
M: [overlapping] Mm.
K: And that’s it. Whereas they really like a painting because it resembles a photograph.
F: And why do they no longer like photographs?
K: That’s progress, people begin to make progress.
F: Making progress?
F: So photographs are now considered passé?
K: They think that at most one photograph should be kept in the bedroom.
K: Or in the living room, one of the lady (of the house) or a marriage photograph.
F: I see.
K: Instead of putting up those frames full of pictures of the family, I don’t see them doing this (anymore). I think that, if they are now beginning to buy paintings, this is a sign of progress.
F: That’s it.
[addressing Matchika] kintu kingine: una: una: penta mamba muntu?
M: yote niko napenta/
F: bana: banauza bya mingi?
F: mamba muntu?
F: ma: maana yake njo nini?
M: maana yake yee? maana yake ni tu paka vile: kintu kya kufurahisha tu/ sina nayo maana zaidi hapana/ minaona asema ni kintu ya kufurahisha tu paka vile/ hana na maana hapana/
F: aah: siwezi/ bantu: bana: beba na mawazo kama anauza: banafanya commande/ banasema mi minapenda mamba muntu...
M: ndiyo/ kwa: kwa wao wenye kuuza: maana yabo banasema kama ni mpumina/ ile eko anaikala kule chini ya bulongo anafanya [rapid] te: te: te: te: bulongo/ ya vile bo banasema vile/
K: tremblement de la: de terre/
F: tremblement? mpumina?
F: mamba muntu?
M: ah: bo banasema vile/
F: tremblement de terre/ namna gani? mi hii sisik...?...
K: kuko wakati minafanyaka:
K: mwaka moya kama inaisha:
K: dunia inatimbizika: kusukia manyumba ya: pembeni/
K: sasa maEurope maétages inapasukaka/
K: ah: ndiyo/ sasa bo....
F: ni yee: ni yee anafanyaka?
K: bo banawaza ni yee/ [laughs]
F: mamba muntu?
K and M: [laugh]
M: sasa eko bantu banawaza vile aseme eko ile njo anafanya ni yee eko nafanya vile/
F: [laughs] mais si njo bana: bengine banauza ma: maneno ba: banawaza ni: kintu ya: sawa: sawa lawa ya kupata utajiri?
M: hapana/ ndiyo iko vile: minaisha kusikiako hee? siku moya: muntu moya mwanamuke yee anasema vile/ sawa mi natafuta yee kuuza maneno ya kwenda kutengeneza:..?... nasema utatengeneza na hii kitu gani? minasikia vile nasikia boga: mi hapana uuzisha yee hapana/
M: minabeba: minakwenda/
F: wee uli: we uliuz: ulisikia woga?
M: aah: minasikia boga pale asema hapana maneno/ kile nitakufanya na yee? dawa yake: mi hapana yua kama dawa gani?
F: [chuckles] kweli? [pauses] mm/ ts: bon/
| 20. [addressing Matchika] Another thing, do you paint Mamba
Muntu (the mermaid)?
M: I paint everything.
F: Do people buy many?
M: They do.
F: (I mean) Mamba Muntu.
F: What is the meaning (of that painting)?
M: Its meaning? All it means is that it is a thing that gives joy. I don’t really have a meaning for it. In my view it is simply something that gives joy. It does not have any meaning.
F: Ah, I can’t (believe that). People have thoughts when they pick it up or order it. They say I like a Mamba Muntu.
M: Yes. When those who buy it give a meaning to it the say it is mpumina, the one that lives deep underground and, [rapid] tetetete, shakes the earth. They say something like that.
K: [in French] An earthquake.
F: A quake? Mpumina?
F: Mamba Muntu?
M: Well, that’s what they say.
F: Earthquake. How? I don’t understand this...?...
K: It was during my lifetime.
K: Toward the end of the year.
K: When the earth trembled, shaking houses back and forth.
F: That was when in places in Europe buildings collapsed.
K: Ah, yes. So they...
F: It was (mpumina) who did that?class
K: That’s what they think.[laughs]
F: Mamba muntu?
K and M: [laugh]
M: It’s the people who think that she is the one who does this.
F: [laughs] But is it not true that some buy (the painting) because they think it is something like a magic charm, a charm to get rich?
M: No. Yes, it’s true, I heard of this, right? One day a woman said something like that. I want to buy (this painting) in order to fix...?... I said, what are you going to fix with this thing? I was sort of getting scared and did not sell (the painting) to her.
M: I picked it up and went away.
F: You were getting scared?
M: Yes was afraid then. Never mind (I told her), what am I going to do to her? About its magic power, I don’t know what kind of charm it is.
F: I see.
F: [chuckles] Really? [pauses] Mm, ts, alright.
sasa: nazani niliuliza yote nili: kuwa: ku: kuuliza: juu kama wee: mara
ingine wee uko na kintu kuniuliza/
M: kintu ya kuuliza?
M: sawa vile na mi: napenda sana: pale unaniuliza: kwa mambo yote hii/ unauliza juu ya matableaux/ na mimi minapenda ku: kwa kuweza kunipako nguvu: kwa kuweza kuendelea na hii kazi hii/
| 21. Now, I believe I asked all the questions I had but
perhaps you have something to ask me about.
M: Something to ask about?
M: (I just want to say) I really liked you questioning me about all these matters, the questions you had about the paintings. And I appreciate your giving me the strength to go on with this work.
| 22. F:[pauses] kumbe jina yako ni Matchika?
M: jina yangu niko Matchika/
F: Matchika/ ni nani? ma: ni kaTshokwe?
F: njo: njo kabila yenu? mm/ ya Dilolo/
F: mm/ baba na mama beko bazima?
M: bote beko bazima/
F: banaikala hapa sasa?
M: beko banaikala pale vile vile: tena mu mugini sasa/
F: ku mugini kule?
F: balirudia ku mugini/ na wee ulifika hapa?
M: hapa nilifika hapa mu: Kolwezi mu: septante/
F: mu septante?
M: aah/ mwezi wa tano nilifika hapa/
F: mm/ kuyenga hapa:
M: miye kuyenga hapa/
F: paka s: ulikimbia Lubumbashi?
M: ah: ku Lubumbashi nilitoka zamani/
F: ah oui oui...
M: [overlapping]... paka Likasi...
F: [overlapping]... Likasi/
F: uliona kama ni: [claps] kama ni muzuri ya:
M: aah ni/ ah peko muzuri/
F: mm/ kupita Likasi/ mu Likasi mulikuwa bamingi: peintres?
M: na Likasi tulikuwa mingi/
F: mingi sana/ mm/
| 22. F: [pauses] So, your name is Matchika?
M: My name is Matchika.
F: Matchika. What (kind of name is this)? Is it Tshokwe?
F: That is your ethnic group? Mm, from around Dilolo.
F: Mm. Are your father and mother alive?
M: Both are alive.
F: Do they live here?
M: They used to live here but now they are (back) in the village.
F: In the village there?
F: They went back to the village. When did you arrive here?
M: I came to here to Kolwezi in seventy.
F: In seventy?
M: Yes, I arrived here in May.
F: Mm, to build (a house) here.
M: To build my house here.
F: Did you run away from Lubumbashi?
M: Ah, I left Lubumbashi long ago.
F: Well, yes, yes...
M: [overlapping] ... (then it was) just Likasi.
F: [overlapping] ...Likasi.
F: You saw that it was, [claps] it was pleasant (here).
M: Yes, it’s pleasant here.
F: Mm. Better than in Likasi. In Likasi, were there many of you, painters?
M: There were many of us in Likasi.
F: Lots of. Mm.
sawa: [pauses, picks up a painting] kwa: tu: tukamate: sawa: tukamate ile
mugini/ ile mugini/
M: ya kwanza/
F: ile ya kwanza/
M: iko ni couple/
F: iko ni...
M: [overlapping]... iko ku mukongo/
K: [overlapping]...iko hapa/ ile: ...
M: [overlapping] hapana...?...
M: [overlapping] ni couple...?...
F: ile mugini/
F: mm/ sawa: mu masomo: muli: mulifunda nini zaidi: zaidi ku: kama minaangaria ile: [hesitates] ile: ile: tableau: minaona bantu; minaona manyumba: minaona fond: mm? ile: tena minaona miti/ na mbingu/
F: sasa mu masomo muli: mulifunda: zaidi mulifunda nini?
M: ile tulifunza? asema tulifunza zaidi kuonyesha paka namna ya mayani kama ni ndani: ni inje: après yake:
F: ile/ ile miti?
M: aah/ sawa vile kuonyesha ndani na inje:
M: après yake tena kuonyesha na burefu wa kintu: na kintu kya mu karibu:
M: après na kuonyesha couleur: hii ni fasi ya baridi: hii ni fasi ya: ya mwangaza:
F: mm/ [pauses] mm/ ile: ni ile mulifunda?
F: mwaka mbili?
M: mwaka mbili mm/
F:mm/ aaah [recording interrupted]
| 23. So [pauses, picks up a painting], let’s take this
village, this village (scene).
M: The first one (in the batch).
F: The first one.
M: It’s a couple.
F: This is ...?...
M: [overlapping] it’s in the back.
K: It’s this one here.
M: [overlapping] no ...?...
F: This one.
M: [overlapping] it depicts a couple ...?...
F: This village scene. class
F: Mm. So, what was it mainly you learned at school. When I look at this, [hesitates] this painting, I see people, I see houses, I see the background, right? Furthermore, I see trees and the sky.
F: Now, what was it you studied most thoroughly at school?
M: What we studied? Let’s say we learned above how to represent the leaves, to show whether they are inside or outside. After that...
F: (Like on) this one? This tree?
M: Ah, showing what is inside and what outside.class
M: After that it was about representing the size of an object and (showing) that an object is close by.
M: Then it was to show color, indicating this place is cool, that one is in the light.class
F: Mm. [pauses] Mm. That is what you learned?
F: For two years?
M: Two years, mm.
F: Mm. I see. [recording interrupted]
| 24. ...kumbe tulisumbulia juu ya bei/ wee: wee unasema:
bei inafwata nini?
M: inafwata ku: kintu ku bunene ya kintu/
F: bunene ya kintu?
M: aah/ après yake tena inafwata ku: namna ya peinti inyewe/
F: [pauses] mais bunene ni: ni nani? ile: ile: ile mufuko na: na:
M: hapana/ minafwata ku bunene ya nani: ya: ya chassis inyewe/
F: ya chassis?
M: après yake tena: nafwata na: ku: peinture inyewe/
F: peinture: ile unawe: una: unatia?
F: mm/ mais inaachana tena na: sawa ule: ule s: unaona ile ni tableau moya muzuri: minapashwa kuomba bei: kupita ingine:
M: ndiyo/ kwa vile: kwa wazungu iko sawa/
M: sasa kwa sisi watu: watafuta paka ku bunene ya kintu/
F: bunene ya kintu?
M: aah/ na ku rangi ya kintu: sawa vile tunasema peinture/
M: ile batafwata/
F: mm/ bo: bana: rangi inaachana namna gani?
M: rangi inaachana: sawa vile/
M: hapa si iko rangi namna ingine? tuone/ [looks at painting] sawa hapa/
M: si mawingu inakuwa sawa à vif kidogo/
M: ah/ sasa kuko ule muntu ingine anapenda vile/ kuko muntu ingine anapenda vile/
F: mm/ mm/ na bei itaachana?
M: ah bei hapana/ bei paka mu...
F: bei paka pake pamoya/ bei inafwata tu bunene ya: yake/
F: ya kintu/ [claps] mm/ sawa: chasis moya: sawa ile/ wee unapashwa kulipa matériel/ mm?
F: unalipa ngapi? sawa couleurs:
M: couleurs njo...
F: nguo: na: na mbao/
M: nguo niuza mufuko moya vingt cinq bule/
F: sasa vingt cinq Makuta?
F: mm/ tena rangi:
M: kiisha tena: pamoya na peinture: minaona nauza hapa: kopo ingine: iko na trois Zaire cinquante/ kwa bale tunasikilizana nabo: minauza/ après tena na kilo ya musumari/ iko na quatre vingt Makuta/
F: mm/ mm/ bon sasa ile bei: ile bei yake yake/ we: kwanza tusikilizane tu/ sema tu wazi wazi: sawa vile kama unauzisha kule: ku Métalkat: unaomba ngapi? bana: bo banalipa ngapi?
M : bo banalipa au moins cent: cent cinquante minaomba/
F: cent cinquante?
M: cent cinquante: oui/ minauzisha ya vile/
F: cent cinquante/ [pauses] mm/ bon/ na: commandes? sawa vile banawe: banaweka commande: na siku ya malipo: wee unafika kule?
F: siku moya/ zaidi siku ya malipo?
M: paka siku ya malipo/ saa hivi/
M: bo banasema utaleta/
M: minabeba: minaenda kupeleka/ minaenda kupeleka kwa kila muntu ananiomba commande yake weee: kiisha yake: siku ya malipo minafika minaenda kukamata ile Makuta/
F: mm/ bon/ ça va/ [recording interrupted]
| 24. ... so, we talked about the price (of a painting).
What to do say determines the price?
M: I would say...
M: ... it depends on the size of the object.
F: The size of the object?
M: Yes. Apart from that, it depends on the quality of the paint.
F: [pauses] But the size is given by the flour bags (used as canvasses).
M: No, I go by the size of the stretcher.class
F: (The size) of the stretcher?
F: I see.
M: Other than that I go by the paint itself.
F: The paint you use?
F: Mm. But there is also something else. When you see that a certain painting is (especially) beautiful you tell yourself, I must ask for a higher price than for others.
M: Yes. That’s how it is with Europeans.
M: Now, as far as we Africans are concerned, it will only be the size of the object.
F: The size of the object?
M: Yes, and the color of the object, as we said before, the paint(ing).class
M: That is what they will go by.
F: Mm. What about differences in color?
M: Colors are different. For instance...
M: Here (on this painting) colors are different, right?. Let’s see. [looks at painting] Here, for instance.
M: The clouds are rather vivid.
M: Yes. Now, one person likes this, another one prefers something different.
F: Mm. Mm. And the price will be different?
M: Ah, not the price. The price is only in...
F: The price is the same, it depends only on the size...
F: ... of the object. [claps] Mm. Let’s take a stretcher like this one. You have expenses for the material, right?
F: How much do you have to pay for it, or for the paints?
M: The paints, that’s...
F: For the canvas and the lumber.
M: The canvas, I buy a (flour) bag at twenty-five.
F: Twenty-five Makuta, these days?
F: Mm. Also there are the colors.
M: Then there are also the paints I think I can buy them here by the can at three Zaire fifty. (I buy them) from shops I have an arrangement with. After that, there are the nails at eighty Makuta the kilo.
F: Mm. Mm. Alright, so much for the (cost and) price (of a painting). Let’s be honest with each other, tell me how much you ask (for the paintings) you sell there at Métalkat. How much do people pay you?
M: They pay at least the one hundred and fifty (Makuta) I ask for.
F: One hundred and fifty? [pauses] Mm. Alright. And what about orders, people place order and on payday go there?
F: On a certain day, then, above all on payday?
M: Only on payday, at about this time of the day.
M: (This is when) they tell me to deliver (the paintings).
F: I see.
M: I carry them and go to deliver them to every person. He may have placed his order long before and then, on payday, I come and take the money.
F: Mm. Alright, fine. [recording interrupted]
F: ...kintu ingine ya ku: kukuuliza/
F: minaona: bapeintres beko mingi/ mais: wee: minaona vile kama wee hauwezi ku: kuungana ku: nkundi/
M: kuungana ku nkundi?
F: sawa: kutumika pamoya: ha?
M: ndiyo eko vile/
F: sababu ya nini?
M: njo kusema: kuungana ku nkundi: kwa sisi: humu mwetu mu Kolwezi: hatuna sawa hapana/ tutaweza kufika karibu: mais: munaanza kutoka kibengo: huyu anatoka anakwenda: kwiko mi mukubwa: huyu hivi na hivi: mais ya kutumika muzuri hapana/ njo ile minaisha kuona: mingi baliisha kuwa kule aseme tuungane: minakatala/ asema mitatumika pekee/
F: oui mais: ka: mara: mara ingine kama mulikuwa mu nkundi/ sawa: bote: munafanya: eh: association/ kiisha: kulipa: ah: nani: magasin moya: mu ville: mutafanya exposition/ saa yote/
F: bantu banapita kule ku: saa yote bantu banapita kule ku: ku...
M: ndiyo iko: ile iko muzuri tena/ ile mitaweza kuangaria na muntu mwenyewe/ kama anasema tufanye hivi/ sawa yee iko hapa mukubwa anasema bon tunfanye hivi/ tuku bantu tatu bale ba roho muzuri: nitaweza kuitikia/
M: alafu kwa bantu ingine hapana/
F: mm/ hata hapa mu magasin: kama uko na: diso: disons: na mbili: tatu/ paka ku: ku: mu boutique yako: hauwezi kuuisha? kama bantu banapita: mara ingine banasema ah: ile ni ya kuuzisha?
M: ndiyo/ kuko ingine minafanya: naikala kwangu ku nyumba bakuuze: ...?... kuuza kwangu mu nyumba:
M: kuko ingine: minaenda kupeleka kule banaaomba: ingine minaweka kwangu/ ni ule anataka anakuwa anauza kwangu vile/
F: mm/ mais: kwa kufanya association: hauwe: hauwezi kufanya?
M: kwa kuweza nitaweza kufanya: vile minasema: sawa kwa mukubwa hapa: kama atasema tufanye: shee bantu bawili: tatu: nitaweza kuijibu/ mais anakuwa muntu ingine: maneno ya bukolokolo:
F: oui/ mm/
M: sawa vile mina: minasema tulikuwa pamoya na: Kalema Léopold kule: ni ile alitulifundisha: wakati ile tunajua kiloko: tunaanza kutumika: yee alitufanza tunakuwa bantu ya kazi/ sasa kutulipa hapana/ tuko tunatumika tu bule/ kulipa shee hapana/
F: kwake ka...
M: ...kwake ndiyo...
F: ...kwa: kwa Léopold?
M: eeh/ sasa tunatumika siku mingi kwasipo hata: sikisi/ tunaona vile: inakuwa nguvu/
F: na yee alikamata Makuta ile?
M: na yee eko nakamata Makuta: anakulya/ yee hapana kuleta na shee/
F: alikuwa na sawa: atélier ao?
M: ah: eeh: sawa alifanya sawa...
M: aah/ Kalema/
F: sasa anafanya nini?
M: sasa hivi: aliisha kuacha ile kazi: eko natumika ku: ku nani: ku Kibangu/ Kibanguiste/
F: sawa: sawa nani: sawa mwalimu ao?
M: ah iko sawa: sécrétaire kule/
M: [overlapping] aah/
F: kwa Ki: Kimbanguistes?
F: [pauses] kumbe wee muliku: mu kuli: mulikuwa kutumika: yee ha...
M: na yee anakamata Makuta na pole...
M: hapana kuchanaisha/
F: ba: mulikuwa bamingi?
M: ah tulikuwa nao nombre ya six/
M: vijana tu/
F: vijana tu/
F: na yee aliuzisha: ile wakati: aliuzisha kwa: bazungu? zaidi?
M: ah yee alikuwa anaisha zaidi paka kwa bazungu/
F: mm/ bon/
| 25. ...there is something else to ask you.
F: What I observe is that there are many painters but you don’t seem to be able to come together as a group.
M: Come together in a group?
F: For instance, to work together, right?
M: Yes, that’s right.
M: Uniting in a group -- here where we live, in Kolwezi, we don’t have anything like that. We may come close to it but then you get lack of respectclass. There is one who leaves (the group), another one will say, I am the boss, and yet another one will come up with this or that. So, there is no collaboration. I have observed this. There have been many who said let’s get together but I refused. In other words, I am working alone.
F: Yes. Still, if you were together in a group, all of you would form an association and then rent a shop in town and put on a permanent exhibition.
F: People would pass by there at all times...
M: Yes, that is a good idea, one I could consider it, depending on the person who makes the suggestion. For instance, if our elder here (Kanyemba) were to say alright, lets do this, we are three honest people (lit. of a good soul), then I could go along with it.
M: But not with others.
F: Mm. Still, let’s say there were two or three of you (exhibiting) in a shop, or if you had your own boutique, couldn’t you sell? If people pass by perhaps they say, is this for sale?
M: Yes. I do this with some (of the paintings). I stay at home in my house (and wait) for customers, ..?... for people who buy (paintings) at my house.
M: Others I deliver where they were ordered, still others I keep at home and he who wants them buys them at my place.
F: Mm. But setting up an association – is that something you are unable to do?
M: As far as being capable I could do it. As I said, should our elder here say let’s do it, the two or three of us, I would respond (to his call). But with someone else (it would be difficult) because of ...?...class
F: Yes. Mm.
M: As I said, we were with Kalema Léopold, the one who taught us there (in Likasi). We did not know much then. We began to work and he treated us like workers but without paying us. We worked for nothing, without being paid.
F: At his place...
M: ... at his place, yes.
F: At Léopold’s place?
M: Yes. So we worked for a long time without making a pennyclass. We found something like this difficult to accept.
F: And he pocketed the money?
M: And he pocketed the money and spent (lit. ate) it. He did not give it to us.
F: So he ran something like a workshop?
M: Ah, yes, like a workshop.
M: Yes, Kalema.
F: What is he doing now?
M: Right now he is no longer in this line of work, he works for the Kimbanguist (Church).
F: As what, as a teacher, or?
M: Ah, his is something like a secretary there.
F: A secretary...
M: [overlapping] ...yes.
F: With the Kimbanguists?
M: The Kimbanguists.
F: [pauses] So, you worked and he...
M: ... and he kept the money
M: He did not split it with us.
F: Were there many of you?
M: Well, there were six of us.
M: Just youngsters.
F: Just youngsters.
F: And at that time he sold above all to Europeans?
M: He used to sell mainly to Europeans.
F: Mm. Alright.
F: bon/ tuna: tunaangarie ile: sasa ile tableau yake ya baba Kanyemba/
F: mais: unasema décoratif/ décoratif: wapi? namna gani? nini ni décoratif?
M: ile mistari/
F: mistari? ile mistari ni: décoratif?
M: njo ile ile ...?... na mi: hapana kuyua kufanya vile/ minaona: ndiyo mi nafanya namna ya kufanya ya kupita na yee mi hapana muzuri/
[person enters, greets]
M: siya: siyapima hata siku moya/
M: kwa lakini sawa kwa ku: weza kufanya nguvu na minaenea kufanya mais: na yee iko style yake: me hapana kuweza kufanya ile hapana/ mitata...
F: mais ile namna: ile style: uliisha kuona fasi ingine?
M: hii? hapana/ mais naisha kuona fasi ingine sawa mu bitabu minaisha kuona/
F: mu bitabu?
M: mais mi bado kuona humu ku Kolwezi/ ao ku Lumbumbashi: mi hapana kuona/
F: Pilipili yee ana: anatumika namna gani?
M: Pilipili yee mi nilikuwa naona masiku ya mukongo: nichingali mutoto/ mi hapana yua muzuri/
M: pa namna gani aliikala natumika/
F: mm/ bien/ mistari/ njo décoration/
| 26. Alright. Now let’s look at this painting by baba
F: But you said (something about) decorative. Where? How. What is decorative (in this painting)?
M: Those lines.
F: Lines? Those lines make it decorative?
M: That is what ...?... I would not know how to paint this way. As I see it, yes, if I would work that way or (even try) to surpass him, I would not be good enough.
[person enters, greets]
F: Did you try?
M: Never, not even once.
F: I see.
M: Of course, as I could do it with some effort but this is style and I could not work that way. I would....
F: But this manner, this style, have you seen it elsewhere?
M: This? No, except that I saw it elsewhere, for instance, in books.
F: In books?
M: But I did not see it yet here in Kolwezi or in Lubumbashi.
F: Pilipili, how does he work?
M: Pilipili I used to watch long ago when I was still a child. I did not really grasp ...
F: I see.
M: ... how he was working
F: Mm. Fine. Lines. That’s decoration.
| 27. ...Kaman?
K: ...Kamanda: ndiyo/ Kabala/
K: Kabala anafanya mistari sawa/ kama ulikwenda kwa Kabinda uliona ile tableau moya ya macaque?
K: ah: ile ?demoiselle aliweka juu ya kabati/
K: anafanya mistari hivi [demonstrates, drawing]
K: hivi/ sasa nani: ts: huyu nani: Amisi/
F: Amisi ndiyo/
K: [demonstrates] eko nafanya mistari hivi/ yote: na masujets: na décoration: yote inakwenda paka mu mistari/ paka mistari yote/
F: Amisi iko wapi sasa?
K: Amisi: mi sijue sasa/ banakuambia pale pa Lubumbashi/ sasa mijue kama wapi/
F: ni Tumba Joseph: mu: munamufahamu?
F: Tumba Joseph?
F: banasema alikuwa peintre ya zamani: zamani/
F: Tumba Joseph/ anaikala mu Bel Air kule/
K: mu Bel Air? >Tumba Joseph?
F: mm/ hamufahamu?
K: bale ni bantu balifunza ...?... bengine Bukavu: eh?
K: balitokea kipande ya Kasai: sisi hatuwezi kufahamu/ kama anakuya mugeni wa zamani atakuwa ...?... hatuwezi kufahamu/
F: c’est ça/
K: mais ulikwanza asema Pililipili: baKabala: ni bantu ba hapa/
M: [overlapping] bantu ba humu eh/
F: c’est ça/ ah: weke: non:
| 27. F: ...Kaman?
K: ...Kamanda, yes, (or rather) Kabala.
K: Kabala drew lines like this. When you went to Kabinda’s place did you see the painting of a monkey?
K: Yes, the one the lady put up over a cupboard.
K: He drew lines like this [demonstrates, drawing lines]
K: Like this. And then there was this, what was his name, Amisi.
F: Amisi, yes.
K: [demonstrates] he draws lines like this. Everything, the subjects and the decoration, is rendered (lit. goes into) by lines. Everything is just lines.
F: Where is Amiss now?
K: Amisi, I don’t where he is now. They’ll tell there in Lubumbashi. I don’t know where he is now.
F: There is a certain Tumba Joseph, do you know him?
F: Tumba Joseph?
F: They say he has been a painter since long ago.
F: Tumba Joseph. He lives in Bel Air.
K: In Bel Air, Tumba Joseph?
F: Mm. You don’t know him?
K: Those were people who studied...?.. some of them in Bukavu, right?
K: They came from the Kasai region, we cannot know themclass. Maybe he was an immigrant long ago...?... we cannot know them.
F: That’s it.
K: But when you first mentioned Pilipili and people like Kabala, those are local people.
M: [overlapping] Local people, yes.
F: That’s it. Ah, put it, no...
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