A conversation with Ndaie, recorded January 2, 1974, at J. Fabian’s home in Lubumbashi.
F: pa kwanza: [pause] tuko tuna: tunauliza: ile bapeintres yote tu: eh:
nakutana: juu ya: vile balianza ya: mu kazi yako/
F: kwanza balitoka wapi/ sawa wee ulitoka wapi? ulizaliwa wapi?
N: mi nilizalikwa: ku Luluabourg/
F: ku Luluabourg?
F: njo fasi yo: yako ya:
F: na ulikomea kule?
N: hapana/ kukomea: mina: minakuwa kukomelea huku/
F: huku Lubumbashi?
N: ndiyo/ ku masomo minafanya ku Luluabourg: alafu kwa ku: kufanya mariage: kuoa: minafika huku/
F: na ulifika wee moya ao: na: na bazazi?
N: nilifika huku: muzazi yangu alikuwa huku: ah: zamani alitumika mu Gécamines: anakwenda/ et puis: ana: ananirudisha huku mukubwa yangu/
F: kumbe ah: zamani alikuwa mu Gécamines?
F: iko muzima? non/ ali...
N: iko muzima: paka huku...
N: paka muzazi mwanamuke: anisha:..
N: anaisha kufa/
F: yee: aah: na muzazi anakala kule ku Luluabourg sasa?
N: ndiyo: sasa iko muzee anabakia ku: mm: villagois aussi/
F: ile wakati: kutoka ile wakati ulifika huku: uliisha kurudia kule?
N: kurudia tena kwetu?
N: ndiyo niliisha kwenda/
F: bon/ kumbe: na ulizaliwa mwaka gani?
N: nilizaliwa mu mille neuf-cent quarante/
1. F: All the painters we meet we first ask about how they
started out in their
F: First (we ask) where they came from. How about you, where do you come from? Where were you born?
N: I was born in Luluabourg.
F: In Luluabourg?
F: That’s your place of (birth)?
F: And did you grow up there?
N: No. I grew up here.
F: Here in Lubumbashi?
N: Yes. I went to school in Luluabourg but I came here to get married.
F: I see.
F: And did you come alone or with your parents?
N: (At the time) when I arrived here my father, who had lived here – he used to work at Gécamines – had gone (back to Luluabourg). So he sent me back to this place (to stay with) my older brother.
F: I see.
F: So, he used to be at Gécamines?
F: (Your) father?
F: Is he alive? No, he...
N: He is alive, right here...
N: Just (my) mother, she ...
N: ... she is dead.
F: She passed away.
Y: (Your) father, does he live in Luluabourg now?
N: Yes, he is old now and lives as a peasant.
F: Since the time you arrived here did you (ever) go back there?
N: Go back to our home country?
N: Yes, I went back
F: Alright. So, when were you born?
N: I was born in 1940.
F: na kiisha: ulifwata masomo hapa?
N: ndiyo nilifwata masomo ya kazi ya hivi: ku Luluabourg/
F: aah/ mais: ile masomo ya nani: ya elémentaire na...
N: ndiyo/ ingine mina huku...
N: ndiyo/ primaire minaanza paka kule Luluabourg: minafanya hii ya nani: ya arts: na kwa kutoka minakuya huku/ minakuwa mbele minaingia mu école professionnelle mu: ya Gécamines: ku Mpanda:
F: ku Panda?
N: ah/ mama yangu: baba yangu muloko: ilikuwa kule/ eeh/ sasa inashindakana: minarudia tena huku/
F: uli: ulikuwa kufunda nini kule? ku éco: école professionnelle?
N: ku école professionnelle?
N: hapana/ ma: kule: ba: banatuma mi kwa: kufunda kazi ya maçon: minakatala/
F: ya maçon?
F: ulikatala sababu ya nini?
N: ah: puisque baba yangu: ile baba muloko nilikutanisha kule: alikuwa maçon/
N: alafu tena na mi mitafunda paka ya maçon? hakuna nataka/
F: ni mubaya?
N: ah: ilikuwa muzuri mais lakini: hainikuintéresser ku akili yangu: mi sikupenda/
F: ah bon/
N: mm/ kila mara nilipenda paka ya: hii ya: ya...
F: ...sinon si muzuri kama: kama mutoto anamufwata baba?
N: ni muzuri/ ni muzuri/ alafu: kila muntu na akili yake vile anapenda/ kila muntu na akili yake hii: kintu anapenda kufanya/
F: kumbe wee uliona: ulikuwa na mu: kufunda/ mulifunda na nani kule?
N: ku Luluabourg?
N: eh: iko bantu mingi balikuwa mu ile masomo: banafunda nabo/
F: ya monpères?
N: ah oui zamani...
F: ... hii...
N: zamani balikuwa ba bamonpères banadiriger kule/ ndiyo/
F: aca: académie?
N: ya académie ya Luluabourg/
F: jina yake Académie de Beaux Arts ao?
N: oui/ Académie de Beaux Arts/
F: Académie de Beaux?
F: na tena bangine bali: mwenye kufwata kule: beko sasa? hapa ku Lubumbashi?
N: bengine: bengine banafanya: bengine habapende kufanya/
N: mm/ sawa mi: baba yangu hakupenda minabakia kule: ananirudisha mi paka huku/
2. F: And then, did you go to school here?
N: Yes, I went to a school in Luluabourg (that prepared me for my) current work.
F: I see. But what about what about elementary...
N: Yes, and to another one here,
F: ... primary (school)?
N: Yes, I started primary in Luluabourg, I went to this art school, and when I graduated I came here. The first thing I did was to enter the Gécamines trade school at Panda.
F: At Panda?
N: Yes. My mother, (or rather), my younger father lived there. Yes. Then this did not work out and I came back here again.
F: What was it you studied there? (Was that) at a trade school?
N: At trade school?
F: (To be a) mechanic?
N: No. There I was sent to learn the job of a mason. I refused.
F: Of a mason?
F: Why did you refuse?
N: Ah, because my uncle, the one I met there, was a mason.
F: I see.
N: Was I going to learn just to be a mason? I did not want that.
F: Is that something bad?
N: Well, it was fine but it did not interest me intellectually. I didn’t like it.
F: Ah, alright.
N: Mm. I always liked only this (kind of work).
F: Is it not good if a child follows his father (in choosing a trade)?
N: That is good. It’s good. However, every one has his own intellect (telling him) what to like. Every one has this intellect of his own (telling him) what he likes to do.
F: So you saw – when you were at school who did you study with there?
N: In Luluabourg?
N: Well, there were many at that school, studying (like me).
F: (Was it run) by missionaries?
N: Yes, in the past....
F: ...this (school).
N: In the past it was missionaries who were the directors there, yes.
F: (Was it an) academy?
N: The academy of Luluabourg.
F: The name was Academy of Fine Arts, right?
N: Yes. Academy of Fine Arts.
F: Academy of Fine (Arts)?
F: I see.
F: And of those who studied there, are there others around now here in Lubumbashi?
N: Some took up this work (lit. do it), others don’t like it.
N: Mm. In my case, my father did not like me to stay there so he got me back to this place.
F: I see.
F: mm/ sasa uli: ulianza na hii kazi: mbele ya ndoa? ulitumika kwanza: pa: pa
kwanza kazi ilitumika nini?
N: nilitumika igine/ nilitumiaka kazi ya centraliste/
N: c’est à dire téle: télephoniste ku po...
N: ku Poste/
N: ndiyo/ minatumika huku/
N: oui/ kiisha: minatumika tena ku: minatumika tena ku KDL/
F: ku KDL?
N: mm/ minatumika kule ku trains/ kwenda Port Franqui: kwenda à: à: zamani Albertville: kwenda vile vile Sakania: et puis...
F: sawa ku trains ku: ku conducteur ou?
N: hapana/ tulikuwa ku restaurant/
F: ku restaurant?
N: ndiyo/ mm/ ku restaurant kule/
N: sasa: wakati ya ma: wakati mina: minaofanya ndoa: minatoka/
N: mi na bibi minabakia mi moya: kumbe mina: minabouger hata na akili yangu: minaanza kufanya paka hii kazi/
F: [pauses] na ulianza mwaka gani na hii peinture? ilikuwa: kutoka ku kazi:
N: lakini nilikuwa nafanya: sawa vile: ku kazi: kama minatoka ku kazi/
N: sawa vile samedi: iko wakati ya mangaribi: minapata wakati minafanya/ dimanche: minafanya/
N: kama: kama minatoka ku kazi: mangaribi minakuya ku ville kuuzisha/
N: mm/ niko na hata niko na kazi ingine: minafanya/ bataniingia mu kazi ingine: minafanya/
3. Mm. Now, did you start with this work before marriage?
What did work first, what kind of a job did you have in the beginning?
N: I had other work. I worked as a centraliste.
N: That means as a telephone operator at...
N: ...the Post Office.
N: Yes, I worked here.
F: I see.
N: Yes. Then I also worked for the KDL.
F: At KDL?
N: Mm. There I worked on the trains going to Port Franqui, going to what used to be Albertville, also to Sakania. And then...
F: (What do you mean) on the trains? As a conductor, or?
N: No. We were in the dining car.
F: In the dining car?
N: Yes. Mm. In the dining car there..
N: Now when the time came and I got married I quit.
N: I and my wife lived by ourselves, so I put my mind to it (lit. I moved my intellect) and began to make (painting) my job.
F: [pauses] And what was the year when you began with this painting? Was it when you left your job?
N: (Yes) but I used to paint while I had a job, after work.
N: For instance, on Saturday, when I found the time in the morning I painted. On Sunday, I painted.
N: When I got home from work, in the afternoon, I would go to town to sell.
F: I see.
N: Mm. Even when I had another job I painted. I would be given another job, I painted.
4. F: kumbe uliona sawa vile: ni kazi moya
ya: ya: muzuri?
N: ndiyo ni kazi inanipenda zaidi ...?...ku mukongo/
F: si njo: hatari? ulikuwa na: wee ulikuwa na kazi moya ya: kule ku KDL: kuacha hivi: na: kwanza na peinture...
N: kwanza kwanza paka na peinture/ ndiyo/
F: si njo: si njo ka: si njo kazi moya: si njo kintu moya ya hatari? kuacha kazi?
N: kwa kuacha kazi?
N: hapana/ hapana hatari/ kama unaacha kazi: unapashwa kuyua asema mitavivre namna gani?
N: eh/ kuko na ile eh: sababu gani unaacha kazi? mi: sababu ya: mi: minayua kintu gani nitaacha kazi/ mm? inapashwa kazi: wee muntu unapita kazi nguvu/ hapana kazi inapita wee ku nguvu/ kama iko kazi ya nguvu: mais hapana ...?...: minaacha/ mm/
F: sawa: wee ulifanya: makazi ya: ya: ya namna mingi/ na [pauses] unaona kazi ya peintre inaachana na makazi...
N: ndiyo/ kazi ya penti inaachana/ inaachana na makazi ingine/ hii kazi ya penti: iko sawa ile: iko sawa ile kazi ya taximan/ iko paka: saa yote tutapata Likuta [claps]/ sawa mi niko fumeur: mais mi: minapenda kufanya ambiance mais: mi: mi hapana penda minabakia: deux semaines: trois semaines kwashipo: oh: Makuta/
N: minapenda kufanya paka kazi yangu ya penti/
F: ni kusema sisikie muzuri/ wee: mara ingine unabakia sa: sa: pasipo?
N: pasipo nini?
F: pasipo: Makuta? si: ni vile unasema?
N: aah/ minafanya/ minafanya kwa kupata: ...?... Makuta/
N: et ça fait: kazi ya kuongoya le trente: eh? mi hapana zobelea vile/
N: kama minafanya ile kazi: c’est à dire: mina: minatoka mu kazi: minafanya tena paka hii/ eh/ mi hapana kubakia paka na kazi moya/
F: kumbe sasa: sasa uko na kazi ingine?
N: mi hapana kazi ingine/ sema nafanya paka hii: siko yote/ si niko na batoto: unaona...?...bibi: kazi yangu: paka hii/
N: mm/ hapana fanya kazi ingine ile/
F: na ina: inaendelea muzuri?
N: minaendelea muzuri/
F: unauzishaka: ya mingi?
N: minauzishaka ya mingi/ kama mina: minaona humu: baclients banakuwa sawa kiloko: minafanya mingi: minakwenda mbali: kwenda kuuzisha/
F: mbali wapi?
N: minaenda ku Zambia: na minaisha kufika kule Zambia: mais minaenda kufika ku Lusaka/ kupita Lusaka: kwenda kufika mu Mazabuka: kama wapi kule: Livingstone: minafika kule/
F: Livingstone uliisha kufika?
N: kule chini kabisa kule/
F: uliisha kufika?
F: hapa sasa tena?
N: hapana hapa sasa: sasa inapita...
F: [overlapping] hapana/
N: ...miaka: kama ni tatu: miaka inne: ...?...hapana kwenda hata/
F: mm/ mm/ [pauses] mais: ile kazi ulifanya tu hapa Lubumbashi?
N: kazi ya?
F: kazi ya peintre/
N: ya: ndiyo/ mina: mingi minaanza ya: paka hapa/ paka kwetu kule/
F: turudie kule ulisema sawa: ni: ni kazi moya ya: sawa taximan/
N: yee: maneno taximan iko [chuckles] saa yote anatembea: iko paka ile Likuta mu: mufuko/
N: eh? pamoya na mi/ mina: minaofanya: hata mu ku: mu cités/ eh? bantu banauza/
N: hata mina: mi ya: mi ya kama: sawa kama minabeba mu mukono: aah: tuone: iko ya kuuzisha? kama hapana ya kuuzisha minasema iko commandes: minaenda kupeleka fasi moya/
N: kama iko ya kuuzisha: anaangaria: anakwenda anauza: paka vile/
4. F: So, the way you see it, this is a good kind of work?
N: Yes, it’s the work that pleases me most, by far.
F: Wasn’t there a danger? You had a job at KDL – give it up just like that and start with painting...
N: Just start with painting, yes.
F: Isn’t this a taking a risk, giving up a job?
N: Giving up a job?
N: No. There is a risk. If you give up a job you have to know how you are going to make a living?
N: Yes. There is the question, why did you give up your job? In my case, it was because I knew what I gave up my job for. You understand? It must be work (you take up) because you are someone who is stronger than the job (you have). The job must not be stronger than you. If the job is not a challenge I leave it. Mm.
F: You worked in lots of different jobs. In your view, is the painter’s work different than (other) jobs?
N: Yes. The work of painting is different. It is not the same as other jobs. The work of painting is like that of a cab driver, all the time you are on the lookout to make a Likuta [claps]. Take me, I am a smoker, I like to go out, but I don’t like to go on for two or three weeks without money.
N: I just like to do my work, which is painting.
F: I don’t get this. (You said) sometimes you are without (what)?
N: Without what?
F: Without money, isn’t that what you said?
N: Ah, I paint. I paint to make money.
N: This business of waiting for the thirtieth, right? I am not used to that.
N: When I work in this job, that is to say, when I get off work, I still do the painting. I don’t stick to just one job.
F: So, do you have another job right now?
N: I don’t have another job. Everyday, I only do the painting. I have children and a wife, don’t I? My work is nothing but this.
N: Mm. Not doing another job.
F: And does it go well?
N: I am doing fine.
F: Do you sell a lot?
N: I sell a lot. When I notice that local customers become few I do a lot (of paintings) and go far away to sell them.
F: Far means where?
N: I go to Zambia. I have been to Zambia, I got to Lusaka and further than Lusaka, to Mazabuka, all those places, to Livingstone.
F: You have been to Livingstone?
N: Way down south.
F: I see.
F: You have (really) been there?
N: Not recently. Now it has been...
F: [overlapping] No.
N: ...about three or four years, I didn’t go (there) at all.
F: Mm. Mm. [pauses] But you have been doing this kind of work only here in Lubumbashi?
N: The work of?
F: The work of a painter.
N: Yes. (Painting ) I lot I only started here, (or rather) back home there.
F: Let’s go back to where you said something about this kind of work being like that of a cab driver.
N: Because the cab driver [chuckles] goes around all the time with nothing but a Likuta in his pocket.
N: You understand? It’s the same with me. What I do is I (I go around) in the townships, right? People buy.
N: For instance when I (go around) carrying (painting) in my arms (some one will say) aah, let’s have a look, are they for sale? When they are not for sale I say, (those are) orders, I am about to deliver them at a certain place.
N: If they are for sale, the person looks (at them) and goes ahead and buy them. That’s how it goes.
5. F: bon: sasa ile: ile: [pauses] juu ya
tunasema: vile tunasema: art/
F: peintre/ wee unajiona namna gani wee?
N: kwa miye?
N: kwa mi: mi honêtement: kazi ya peintre: iko kazi muzuri/ ni kazi inanipendeza mi/ sipe: siwezi kupenda kuoza fanya kazi ingine: iko kazi muzuri: inapendeza: muntu yote/ mm/ humu muntu ingine: baba yake anaisha kufa/ eh? kama iko na photo ya baba yake: analeta na mi: minafanya photo: ya nguo/
N: ah/ kama anapenda: ah: anafansisha yake: yee moya: pale angariki hii: kiyana/ kama anazeka: ataonyesha kwa batoto/ angaria: pale iko wakati niko kiyana/ ni fini/ ku kazi: hai: hai: haiki: haiuzi: eh?
N: ou bien: haichokeshe muntu: ou bien haina na hamu/ kusema aah: sasa binatu..?... binakuwa bibaya: mais hapana/ iko sawa vile: iko sawa vile nani: Solbena inafanya manguo/
N: aah: Solbena atafanya nguo: mwezi: mwaka fulani: anatosha/ modèle modèle: mwaka ingine anatosha:
N: yee hapana kuchoka/ kumbe pamoya na mi/ mm/ mitafanya hii: mitafanya hii: mitafanya mufano mufano: mufano: hapana kufanya mufano moya/
F: sawa don: donc: unaendelea na mifano yako?
F: ulianza na nini?
F: pa kwanza ile ma...?.../
N: pa kwanza? pa kwanza nilianza: nilianza na: mi: mi: ni kusema tu: ni don yangu kuanzia mu masomo/ mm? balimu...?... masomo: mi hapana kupoteza: puis yangu ya ku: ku dessin/
N: kama mwalimu ana: anafanya dessin: iko paka mi le prémier/ kama tunafanya mara mbili mara tatu: mwalimu yee hapana fanya tena: anasema: wee utakuya mbele ya saa: kufanya dessin/ ile unapenta bote batakupenda/
N: mm/ iko expérience yangu kwa kuingia masomo/
5. F: Alright. Now let’s get to what we call art.
F: (Being a) painter. How do you see yourself?
N: In my opinion?
N: To be honest, as far as I am concerned, the work of a painter is good work. It is work that pleases me. I would never come to like rotting in some other job. (Painting) is good work, it pleases me and everyone. Mm. Take someone here, his father has died, right? If he has a photo of his father he brings it to me and I paint the photo on canvas.
N: Yes. If he likes it he has his own done, himself when he is still a young man. When he gets old he’ll show it to his children: Look that there was when I was young. That’s all there is to it. Work shouldn’t be a nuisance, right?
N: Or, it should not annoy a person or else it is not desirable. To say, aah, things are bad nowadays – not at all. It’s like Solbena producing cloth.
N: You understand?
N: Yes. In a certain month or year it will make cloth, coming out with pattern after pattern, the year after it will bring out (new patterns).
N: It doesn’t get tired. So then, it’s the same with me. Mm. I paint this, I paint that, I paint many kinds (of paintings), not just one.
F: In other words, you make progress as regards the kinds (of painting)?
F: What did you start out with?
F: When you started out with these (paintings).
N: In the beginning? First I began with – speaking of myself, I’d have to say it has been my gift that came out when I was in school. You understand? Since I was in school I never lost (my gift) for drawing.
N: When the teacher did a drawing I was the best (in the class). If we did it twice, three times, the teacher would stop. He would say you will be ahead (of the class) in drawing. Everyone will like you for what you paint.
N: Mm. That was my experience since I entered school.
6. F: na ile: kama: kama: ulianza naye: na ke: na: sawa
peinture ya kazi? he? sawa/
F: ya kuuzisha enfin/
F: ulianza na ma: masortes gani: na: namna gani? pa kwanza/
N: ah ku kwanza nilianza na mapaysages: mais: zaidi nilikuwa nafanya na: hii ya bichwa ya bantu/
F: bichwa ya bantu?
N: nsula ndiyo/
F: sawa shee tuliona: mapeintures yako kule ku ule bar ya:
N: ya kule?
F: ya nani?
N: Chaussée de Kasenga/
N: mm/ kule ndiyo/ kule client yangu: mais: bamingi: habani: habanifamia hapana/ puisque: mi mina: nilikuwa na batoto mbili eh? biyana mbili/ mm? kama minafanya hivi minafanya:
N: bana: tu: asubui banakamata: banaenda mu ville: kwenda kuuzisha/ banapatana baclients mingi: mingi banajua: Ndaie/ mara: mara ingine banaita bale batoto Ndaie/ mais: habanione mi hapana/
F: kumbe nani: Kapenda alikuwa hii: alikuwa kuuzisha matableaux yako?
N: Kapenda hapana/ iko mutoto moya: iko murefu eh? sasa anafanya tu ma...?.../ anafanya paka tu mapaysages iko masahani/ kila mara yee anafanya paka masahani/
F: si njo Kapenda?
N: hapana [chuckles]
F: murefu hii?
N: murefu/ shiyue kama anasema jina/ kama iko mukalamushi: anafika huku: anasema mu bintu bengine/
F: iko Nkulu?
N: ndiyo/ Nkulu/
N: Nkulu mi hapana ona yee/ Nkulu: mi: minayua kama: zamani alikuwa kubakia paka ku Likasi/ mais humu: mi hapana ona yee/ mina: manang: minasoma kabu...?...mais: mi hapana: hapana onea/
F: sasa: sasa bale babijana mbili?
F: baliisha kwenda?
N: hapana/ moya iko/ moya anakwenda Kasai: mwengine moya anabakia huku/
F: na: yee anauzish: anauzishaka tena?
N: anauzishaka: anakamata clients yangu......
F: ...na: na ile ni kazi yake?
F: wee unamulipa?
N: ndiyo/ ma ik: pa tableau moya: kama anau: pa tableau moya iko na vingt Makuta pa tableau/
F: vingt: vingt Makuta ya ku: commision?
N: ndiyo/ mm/ sasa tena na yee: sasa hapa anaanza kufunda mais ile: yee hapana kuyua kufanya aah: nsula hapana/ anafanya paysages pa: tumasahani/
N: masahani ya plastique/
N: anafanya kule/
F: na bantu banauzisha tena hii: masahani?
N: ndiyo/ banauzisha masahani/
6. F: And when you began with painting as your work,
F: What kinds of painting did you begin with? At the beginning.
N: Well, I began with landscapes but, above all, I painted the heads of people.
F: The heads of people?
N: Faces, yes.
F: For instance, we saw paintings of yours there in this bar.
F: Which was it again?
N: On Chaussée de Kasenga.
F: That’s it.
N: Mm. In that place, yes. There I have a customer, but many people don’t know me. Also, I had two children, right? Two youngsters. You understand? Whenever I produced (paintings).
N: They would pick them up in the morning, go to town to sell them. They get many customers, many know they are by Ndaie. Sometimes they called those youngsters Ndaie but they don’t see me.
F: So, what’s his name? Kapenda. He used to sell your paintings?
N: Not Kapenda. There is this one youngster, the tall one, right? Right now he only ...?... He just paints landscapes on plates. He does this all the time, plates.
F: Isn’t that Kapenda?
N: No. [chuckles]
F: This tall guy?
N: He is tall. I don’t know whether he uses that name. He may be a wise guy, when he came here he said something else.
F: Was it Nkulu?
N: Yes, Nkulu.
N: Nkulu I haven’t seen around. About Nkulu, I know that he used to live in Likasi. But here I have not seen him. I read something about ...?...but I don’t see him around.
F: Now, what about those two youngsters?
F: Have they gone?
N: No, one of them is around. One went to the Kasai, the other lives here.
F: And that one keeps selling?
N: He keeps selling, he makes contact with my customers.
F: And that is his job?
F: Do you pay him?
N: Yes. For every painting sold he gets twenty Makuta.
F: Twenty Makuta, as a commission?
N: Yes. Mm. These days he begins learning (how to paint) but he does not know how to do portraits. He just does landscapes, on those little plates.
F: Little plates.
N: Plastic plates.
N: He makes them there.
F: And people still buy those plates.
N: Yes, they buy the plates.
7. F: kumbe ulianza na: zaidi zaidi ulianza na nsula na?
N: zaidi zaidi nilianza na nsula/ minafa: minapenda kufanya nsula/ ou: kama minaikala mu nyumba: ...?... minakamata cahier: minafanya paka nsula/ minaona na ma: photos: mu: mu majournal ile inanipendeza: na mule ki ma paka mule: minafanya/
N: [mumbled] masahani hapana/
F: kumbe ile ingine: sawa yee [points to a painting] ulifa: unafanya tu na commande ao?
N: hii ya train?
N: hii minafanya tu: vile bule/ comme rejeton/
F: unamu: uza: unauzisha mingi?
N: ya train?
N: ndiyo banauza/
F: na: na: [picks up another painting]
N: na Gécamines/
F: na Gécamines/
F: banauza bya mingi/
N: banauza quand même tu nauza/
F: na tena Mambu Muntu?
N: banauza ndiyo/ na tena/
F: sawa ile tu: eh: tuliona kule ku bar/
N: aah/ uliona: minafanya ingine ya Mamba Muntu: anakamata muntu/
N: ah oui/ [chuckles]
F: ni wee ulifanya?
N: eeh/ ndiyo/
7. F: So you started out above all with portraits, and
N: Above all portraits. I like to do portraits. When I am staying at home...?... I get a copybook and just do portraits. When I see photos I like in newspapers, I do them.
N: [mumbled] No plates.
F: Then how about others like this one [points to a painting], do you paint them on order?
N: This (picture) of a train?
N: That one I just did. It just came up (lit. as an offshoot).
F: Do you sell many (of that subject)?
N: Of the train?
N: Yes, people buy it.
F: And, and [picks up another painting]
N: (The picture) of Gécamines.
F: Of Gécamines.
F: Do they buy many?
N: They do, they buy it, after all.
F: And also Mamba Muntu.
N: They also buy that, yes.
F: Like the one we saw in that bar.
N: Yes. As you saw. I do another version of Mamba Muntu where she grabs a person.
N: Ah yes. [chuckles]
F: [That was a version] you did?
F: I see.
N: Yes, it was.
8. F: sasa ile wakati ulianza: ah: [pauses] uli: uliona
N: ba: bapeintres ingine?
F: oui/ bali: balikal: unakala wapi sasa: mu cité?
N: ndiyo niko mu cité mu Katuba/
F: mu Katuba?
N: mm/ mi: nilikuwa karibu na: artiste ingine: mm [pauses] anaisha kwenda ku Kinshasa/ kuko Kasai mingi: anaisha kwenda ku Kinshasa sasa/
F: unaona kama artistes mingi: balitoka Kasai?
N: ndiyo/ iko mwengine: mu Katuba Luluabourg:
N: iko Kabuya/ anafanya: kila mara yee hapana fanya paysages: anafanya paka ya sawa/ ya baba muzee ya hivi:
N: ya ma...
N: anafanya velours: anakwenda Tanzanie: anatoka kwenda mbali kwenda kuuzisha/ ou bien tu kama iko na commande mu kinywa njo pale karibu na hôtel eh?
F: mm/ ile velours?
N: aah/ iko: yee anafanya sawa sawa vile/
F: [pauses] kumbe mwee muna: munajuana? munafa....
N: tunafahamiana kiloko kiloko: hapana bamingi/ mingi banababikia mbali mbali/
N: ni ku bale beko mu Kenia: be: bengine beko mu Katuba: mais shee hapana kubakia avenue moya/ mais minabakia/ kama mina: minaangaria eko ana: anatumika:
N: ah: minakwenda karibu nayee? mi kama mi hapana ...?... kwenda karibu: minaangaria mara moya: mina: ni nini anafanya/ minakwenda/ iko kazi yake nayee: anafanya kazi yake/ na mi: niko chapu yangu/ minafanya kazi yangu/ mm/ kama mitakwenda kutafuta: rélation na yee: shiyue kama: kama anafanya safari ya mbali: mitapenda kumusikia:
F: habari yake?
N: aah/ kama unakwenda kule na mama: habari gani? kule anatembea muzuri? est-ce que minafanya mi: kintu ya paysage: minafanya kiloko kichwa: hivi na hivi na hivi: est-ce que itaendelea muzuri kule wanapenda kama wee na mi tunaweza kwenda pamoya/
N: kama anasema unafanyaka? anasema: bon utakuwa kunionyesha kile unafanya/ mais si nibebe mbili ao tatu minaonyesha/ kama iko muzuri anatembea muzuri kule anakwendaka: atasema na mi: bon: fanye kumbe tutakwenda kuwa tu umoya: iko muzuri/
N: kama: anashikia jaloux: asema oh: minakwenda paka mi moya/
N: anakuwa anasema na mi kintu? mm?
F: ingine unaona kama bamingi banasikia njo...
N: ahah/ bengine banafanya vile/ kama anaona wapi kule: anata: anakwenda: banauza mara moya muzuri: anarudia anafanya ma: yee hapana penda sasa mi nitaikwenda kule/ yee hapana penda [claps]/ atasema oh: mi niko fashi moya kule: balifanya mi commandes mais: minaenda kule kupeleka paka hivi mais: alafu atafanya mingi anaweka mu..?... mu nyumba: kiisha [claps] anaingia train anakwenda/
N: wee hapana yua/
F: [pauses] sasa: wee hamukuwe: kuwaza: kufanya association?
F: association ya mapeintres: sawa: nkundi ya ba: mapeintres? mm?
N: ndiyo/ kumbe namna ya kuweza kufanya vile mais: alafu shee bote hatuna na Makuta: bwingi pamoya/
N: eh? iko bengine na Makuta mingi: bengine wa na Makuta kiloko/ mais hatutasikilizana zaidi zaidi/
8. F: Now, at the time when you started out, [pauses] were
you aware of other painters?
N: Other painters?
F: Yes. Were they – were do you live now, in a township?
N: Yes I live in the township of Katuba.
F: In Katuba?
N: Mm. I was close to another artist, mm, [pauses] he has left for Kinshasa. There are many people from Kasai (in that place). But now he left for Kinshasa.
F: Did you observe that many artists came from the Kasai?
N: Yes. There is another one, in Katuba Luluabourg.
N: That’s Kabuya. He never does landscapes, just (paintings) like (the portrait) of an old man and the like.
F: I see.
N: He does velours (paintings on velvet), travelling all the way to Tanzania to sell them. Unless he has secured an order, he is the one (exhibiting) near the Hotel, right?
F: Mm. Those velours?
N: Yes. That’s the kind he paints.
F: [pauses] So you (painters) know of each other?
N: We know each other slightly but not many (of us). Many live far apart.
N: There are those who live in Kenia township, others in Katuba, we don’t all live on one street. But I stay put. If I happen to observe (a painter) working.
N: Am I going to get close to him? I won’t stop close by, I just get a glimpse of what he is doing and then I move on. (What he dies) is his business, he does his work. I have my atelier and do my work. Mm. It could happen that I strike up an acquaintance with him, I don’t know, perhaps if he travelled far away I’d like to listen to him.
F: (To) the story he has to tell?
N: Yes, you may go to his place together with your wife (and ask) what happened, did he have a good journey? I paint these landscapes and, now and then, portraits. Would this go well over there if we went there together?
N: He may say, (is that what) you are doing? Alright, he may say, you should show me what you are doing. I may then take along two or three (paintings) and show them. If it goes well and he did well on his trip he may say, alright, so lets work together as partners. That’s fine.
N: If he is the jealous type, he’ll say oh, I rather go on working by myself.
N: Is he going to tell me anything? Mm?
F: Do you observe that there are many who...
F: ... would enjoy it if things did not go well for you?
N: Yes, many act like that. If he thinks that wherever he goes he has good sales he comes back and works – he will not like me to travel to that place. He is not going to like that [claps] and he’ll say, oh I have this place there where they ordered (paintings), I am just going there to deliver them. What he is going to do is to accumulate many paintings at home and than [claps] he takes the train and leaves.
N: You won’t even know.
F: [pauses] Now, has it ever occurred to you to set up an association.
F: An association of painters, like a group of painters? Mm?
N: I understand. This could be done but we don’t make the same kind of money.
N: You understand? Some have a lot of money, others have little, and we are not really going to agree among each other.
9. F: uliona hata moya? peintre moya: ooh: mwenye ku:
mwenye kupata Makuta mingi/ sawa kuwa na utajiri? na mapeinture yake?
F: sawa kupata motokari ya:
N: ahah ndiyo/ par chance/ ile: hapana ...?.../ iko par chance sawa vile: ile gou: kama gou: ile gouverneur iko humu/ eh?
N: ao kama shiku ya kufanya: eeh: Président anakuya/
N: na benzake ao mbili ao Kaunda: Nyrerere: muntu gani banakuya/ sasa mi kama niko na photo: ya Kaunda ou bien ya Nyerere ou ya: ya Président: eh? ah: minayua batakuwa tatu fulani: minaikala mu nyumba minafanya photos ya bien: bien: eh? kwenda kuuza cadres kitoko kabisa kabisa ya kuweka: eh? ile wakati: banaisha kuikala huku: sawa vile kwa gouverneur: minasema niko na cadeau ya: Prési: minakwenda kule: ni cadeau ya Président ya kuleta na yee/
N: ha? mara minaingia mule: banaisha kuikala benzake: bana batakala? banasema: ni ile ni/ alafu mitaleta huyu/ voilà Président: hivi na hivi minasema na wee: eh?
N: sawa minakuletea ya kuonyesha na mi kazi yangu namna gani: vile: minafanya/ voilà ya mwenzake: ya mwenzake: ya mwenzake/ mais ile wakati: bataleta na mi: matabishi mingi ya kufanya: minaweza kuuza kintu gani mi minapenda: sitaku: minaweza kupata: karibu ya...
F: mais ile mawazo: ulikuwa naye?
F: mais ha: ulifanya? hapana/
N: ah siyafanya vile lakini/
F: [overlapping] ah/
N: bado/ [chuckles] ni mawazo ya vile niko naye/
9. F: Have you ever seen one single painter who made
money, a lot of it? One who became rich with his painting?
F: For instance enough to get a car?
N: Ah yes. By chance, it is not something that...?.... (If it happens it is) a matter of chance. Take, for instance our governor here, right?
N: Or, for example, organizing the day of our President’s visit.
N: Together with his two colleagues Kaunda and Nyerere, whoever comes along. Now, if I happen to have a photo of Kaunda or Nyerere, or of the President, right? And I know who those three will be, I stay at home and paint some really good portraits, you understand? I go and buy some really elegant frames to put them in. After they have taken residence, for instance, at the Governor’s place I tell (the guards) I have a present for the President, a present for the President, to be delivered to him.
N: Right? Once I get into the room were they are sitting together, are they going to reject (the present)? They’ll say, so that’s what it is. So I hand it to the President, here it is, explaining things at length, right?
N: (It would be) like bringing you (paintings) to show you my I work and how I paint. Here, (I tell the President) are (the portraits of) of each of your colleagues. Then they’ll give me a handsome reward and I’ll be able to buy whatever I like. I could get as much as...
F: Did you ever have this thought?
F: But did you do it? No.
N: Well, I haven’t done it yet.
F: [overlapping] Ah.
N: Not yet. [chuckles]. It’s a thought I have.
10. F: mais: kwa: bengine ba: un: unajua/ uli: uliisha
kuona bengine: mwenye: kupata mali mingi ya: juu ya peinture?
N: ndiyo/ iko bengine banaisha kupata vile/
F: sawa nani?
N: mm: iko artiste moya mule/ sasa: minaona yee hapana kufanya zaidi zaidi/ eh? alifanya: photos ya: ya: ya: président ya nani: président ya Zambia: he?
N: anafanya: na famille yake yote/ alicopié photos mu journal: anafanya famille yake yote/ mais alipata Makuta mingi/ aliuza parcelle/ nazani/
F: kule: kule ku:
F: ku Zambie?
N: ah ndiyo ilifunga mi: anafanya huku: anafanya kwenda mu kupeleka ku Zambia après/
F: [overlapping] aah/
N: ana: anapata matabishi mingi anarudia huku et puis anafanya: gouvernement yake yote muzima/ bantu bote be: eh?
N: ah/ anaenda tena:
F: anaikala hapa mu?
N: non non: ah: sasa si njo ile minasema yee anatoka anakwenda Kinshasa?
N: sasa anaisha kwenda Kinshasa: hapana kubakia tena huku/
N: oui/ alafu famille yake yote na kule/
F: jina yake ni?
N: Emmanuel/ Kabala/
N: mm/ mm/
F: Kabala Emmanuel/
N: mm [chuckle]/ anaisha kwenda sasa/
F: yee alifunda: alifunda kazi yake wapi?
N: shijue/ shijue kama alifundaka/
F: alikuwa kuze: kuzeka?
N: hapana/ yee hapana muzeka alafu anapita mi kiloko kwa miaka/
N: anapita miaka/ iko muntu mukubwa kwa miaka/ alafu ku: mm? kuna hapana muzee/
N: mm/ alifanya vile/ anaisha kwenda/
N: iko sawa yee ule...
F: anafanya portraits saa yote ao: ao ingine?
N: [overlapping] ah yee anafanya: anafanya paka portraits/ yee hapana fanya hapa: paysages pale/
N: mm/ anafanya paka portraits/
F: si njo ile anatumika na nani: na Pililipili:
F: na bengine/Kabala/
N: Kabala/ shiyue/ eh/ maneno yee: alikuwa kubakia mu Katuba ah: mu Katuba premier/ mara ingine alibakia mu Katuba trois?
F: sasa iko mu Kinshasa/ mm?
N: sasa iko Kinshasa/ anaisha kwenda Kinshasa/
N: minasikia kila mara ku radio: yee: yee Kabala na bengine kule: banafanya expositions kule banakwenda ku ...?...kama ma: banakwenda ku fashi paka vile...
10. Still, you know of some. Have you seen others making a
fortune with their painting?
N: Yes. There are some who did.
F: Who, for instance?
N: Mm, there is this one artist – nowadays I don’t see him painting a lot – he did portraits of the president of Zambia, right?
N: And also of his whole family. He copied photographs from a newspaper and painted his entire family. He made a lot of money. I think, he bought himself a piece of land.
F: Over there in...
F: Over there in Zambia.
N: Yes, it cut me off. He painted (the portraits)here and went to deliver them in Zambia afterwards.
F: [overlapping] I see.
N: He got a large reward and came back. And then he did his entire government, every single member, right?
F: I see.
Y: Yes, and then he went again (to Zambia).
F: Does he live here in (Lubumbashi)?
N: No. No, he is the one about whom I told you that he left for Kinshasa.
F: I see.
F: That one.
N: Now he has left for Kinshasa, he doesn’t live here anymore.
N: Yes. And his whole family is also there.
F: His name is?
N: Emmanuel, Kabala.
N: Mm. Mm.
F: Kabala Emmanuel.
F: Is he old?
N: Mm. [chuckles] He has left now.
F: Where did he learn his trade?
N: I don’t know. I don’t now whether he had any training.
F: Was he getting old?
N: No. He is not old but he is a few years ahead of me.
N: (A few) years ahead (of me). He is my senior but not really old, you understand?
N: Yes. That’s what he was doing before he left.
F: I see.
N: He is like this...
F: Does he always paint portraits or (also) other kinds (of pictures)?
N: [overlapping] Ah, he only does portraits, no landscapes, where (he lives now).
N: Mm. He only does portraits.
F: Is he not one of those who worked with Pilipili?
N: With (whom)?
F: And the others. Kabala. 
N: Kabala. I don’t know. Well, he lived in Katuba township, in Katuba I, or was it III?
F: So now he is in Kinshasa. Mm.
N: Now he is in Kinshasa. He left for Kinshasa.
N: I often hear about it on the radio, about Kabala and another one who do expositions there. Perhaps that’s why they went there...
11. F: mais ile: ile sawa: ile bengine sawa yee/
N: ba: bengine sawa sawa Kabala?
N: Kabuya/ sasa yee Kabuya mu Katuba Luluabourg/ Katuba ya: kuko karibu na Gécamines/
F: ile mwenye kufanya:
N: anafanya nayee paka ya vile/
F: ile: ile velours?
N: ndiyo/ mm/
F: na ingine?
N: ah: bengine: bengine banafanya sawa mi/ banafanya paka ya paysages/ kufanya...
F: sawa ile [points to a painting on the wall] hau: haufahamu? ile kule?
N: mm/ ...?... nafahamia/ eh/ anaandika jina yake?
F: ndiyo/ minajua ile/ mais: ni pa kujua kama wee unamujua/
N: aah iko: iko papa ingine kule munene muzee sawa eh? njia ya kwenda Océan/
F: ya: ya kwenda: wapi?
N: njia ya kwenda ku nani: ku Bel Air kule: ku Océan/ kwa...
F: karibu na kaburi?
N: karibu na: yee/ iko balabala karibu na tu: inatoka ku cimitière kule/
N: ah/ iko baba moya kule: anafanya: anafanya portraits ya hivi/
N: Mwenze oui/ [chuckles] minajua yee/
F: njo huyu?
F: sawa unaona: wee unamuona namna gani?
F: ah/ ni peintre sawa: bote bengine ao?
N: yee minasikia kama iko: mwalimu: kama iko professeur ku fasi gani hivi/ yee anafanya nayee kule/
F: na nduku yake: una: unamufahamu? Pililipili?
N: nduku yake mi hapana kumufahamia/
F: wee bado:
N: yee hapana kumufahamia mi: hapana/ paka ile: Mwenze minayua/
11. F: But, what about those others, the ones like
F: Do you know one of them?
N: Others like Kabala?
N: Yes (I do).
N: Kabuya. He now lives in Katuba Luluabourg, near the Gécamines.
F: He is the one who does those...
N: He is doing the same sort of things.
F: ... those velvet paintings.
N: Yes. Mm.
F: And (are there) others?
N: Yes, there are others who work the way I do. They just do landscapes, doing....
F: Take this one [point to a painting on the wall]. Don’t you know (the painter)? That one over there?
N: Mm....?... (I seem) to know him. Did he sign his name?
F: Yes, but I know (who he is). (I am asking) to find out whether you know him.
N: Aah, he is this tall old gentleman, right? (He lives) on the road that leads to the “Ocean.”
F: Leads where?
N: The road the goes to Bel Air, to the “Ocean.”
F: (Is that) near the cemetery?
N: (That’s) near his place. It’s the road that begins there at the cemetery.
F: I see.
N: Yes. That is where this older gentleman lives who does these portraits.
N: Mwenze, yes. [chuckles] I know him.
F: Is he the one (who did this painting)?
F: Do you know him?
N: I know him.
F: So what is your opinion of him.
F: Yes. Is he a painter just like all the others, or?
N: About him, I hear he is a teacher, a professor at this place where he also does his painting.
F: And what about his colleague Pililipili, do you know him.
N: His colleague I don’t know.
F: Not yet.
N: Him I don’t know, just this Mwenze.
12. F: mm/ bon: na: ts: [pauses] sawa:
[pauses] kama una: unatimika: unaendelea namna gani? ni paka wee: ni paka:
inatoka paka ku mawazo yako? ao?
N: mm/ [claps] minatumika bile: bile minawaza mi/
N: minatumika bile minawaza/ ou plutôt: muntu mwengine anaongeza akili ya mu kichwa yangu atasema: fanya mi: ya sawa sawa: kintu fulani: hivi na hivi: hivi na hivi/ na pale mi nitaenda kufanya na akili yangu: minafanya ile kintu anasema: kama minaona iko kizuri: na mi kinabakia mu kichwa yangu/ minaanza kufanya sasa ku: peleka tena ...?... fasi ingine/
F: [pauses] na mara ingine maclients: banasema: aah ile mi sipende: ile ni mubaya ao: kintu gani?
N: ndiyo bengine banasema vile/ bengine hapana: mais kintu yote hapana kusema: bote banapenda/
N: hata nguo/ mm? hata: kintu gani/ utauza: mwengine anapenda/ mwengine yee hapana penda/ oh: eh: anaangaria: ah: ts: ile muntu ile kule anafanya iko muzuri bya hivi na hivi vile/ alafu mwengine: wee una: unaacha ule: unakwenda fashi ingine: anapenda kabisa/ maneno anapenda kabisa kupita: hii bantu ingine unaacha kule/ iko sawa/
F: uko na: na wanafundi? mm? na étudiants?
N: ah: kuko na bale banaisha kufunda kwangu mi: sasa banaanza kufanya yabo: tumika tu ...?...
F: sawa nani: sawa?
N: sawa ile batototo minasema bale be: balikuwa nauzisha kwangu/ sasa yee: nayee anaanza...
N: oh: Ilunga? Ilunga si anafunda na mi paka ku commune/ wee hapana ona: asema ni kintu gani na yee/
F: ndiyo/ minaona ile mamiti na:
N: eh/ Ilunga anacopier: ana: kama mi niko nafanya: anakuya kuangaria: na yee anakwenda kufanya: anakuya kuangaria/ kama ni: kintu gani iko matata na yee: anauliza mi/ mi minaonyesha yee/
F: Ilunga na ingine: ulikuwa na ingine? ya kumufwa:
N: ya kufunda huku miye?
N: enfin ile mutoto wmenye nafanya tu masahani/
N: anacopier kuko mi/
12. F: Mm. Alright. [pauses] Let’s take your work. How do
you go about it? Does it only come from you, from your own thoughts, or?
N: Mm. [claps] I work without thinking.
N: I work without thinking. Or rather, someone else may widen my mind, what I have in my head, by telling me, do a picture for me in a certain way or of a certain subject, things of that kind. So I’ll do it, putting my mind to it and painting what he talked about. When I see that it turned out well it will stay in my mind. Then I may do (pictures like it) and offer (lit. carry) them elsewhere.
F: [pauses] So, sometimes customers may tell you, ah, this one I don’t like, this one is bad, or what to you mean?
N: Yes, some talk like that, others don’t. At any rate, whenever a picture is not commented on (it means) that everyone likes it.
N: Even the canvas or whatever you buy – one person likes it, another one doesn’t like it. Oh, (he may say), look at this, this person there he did well, things like that. But with another one you just give up, go elsewhere, and (another customer) really likes it, much more than those others you gave up on. That’s how it is.
F: Do you have apprentices? Mm? Students?
N: Well, there are some whom I taught, they now begin to paint their pictures, working ...?...
F: Who, for instance?
N: Like the youngster I told you about, the ones who used to sell (paintings) for me. No there is one who begins...
F: (Could this be) Ilunga?
N: Oh, Ilunga? Ilunga, he learned it from me in the township. When you look (at his work) you won’t be able to tell what is his or mine).
F: Yes, I see (how he does) those trees and...
N: Yes, Ilunga copies. When I paint he comes to watch. Then he goes and paints and comes back to watch. If he runs into a problem he asks me and I show him.
F: (So there is) Ilunga. Did you have another one after him?
N: To learn (painting) here with me?
N: Well, there is this youngster who paints the plates.
N: He copies my work.
13. F: sasa kwa: unapashwa kutumika: ao
kufanya matableaux ngapi kila: kila juma? juu ya ku:
N: mm/ kwa kila juma?
N: kama mi hapana na kazi mingi mingi:
F: ni kazi gani? kazi hii?
F: kazi ingine?
N: ah iko: iko ah [exasperated]: ya hapana mitaikala paka: paka ya: iko kintu ina mi kuweza kufanya: ao minaweza kutembea: kwenda fashi ingine: [claps] kupata habari: wapi: [claps] kutembea ku...
N: ah/ minaweza kufanya vile/ et puis kama minapenta: leo iko paka kazi kazi: minaikala tu/ kwa juma moya: minaweza kufanya: eh: hii tableaux kufika ku: quinze?
N: mm/ mm/ maneno kama unafanya vingt: uta: trente: utafanya bintu ya ovyo/ bintu ya: ku tu pupupupu/
F: oui oui/
N: tu fanya bintu ? bembele/ ...?...ku kazi ya kufanya: pole pole/ unafanya: unatoka unakwenda kule: una: unaangaria wee moya: iko muzuri: iko hapana muzuri/ unafanya: unaacha: unakwenda kushimama mbali: unaangaria: bon/ hapana kufanya sawa: ao sawa unaandika mukanda...?... hapana/
N: ah/ ...?...
F: unaanza te: paka na moya: ao unaanza mingi? kila mara/
F: ...unaanza moya: kiisha kumaliza: tena: kwanza na ingine? ao unaanza na mingi?
N: [overlapping] sawa: sawa sawa ya paysages/
N: minaweza kwanza mawili/
N: kwa yote/ eh? shiku moya mitafanya ana: croquis na crayon/
N: maneno kama iko tableaux ya mingi mitafanya na crayon/ et puis: kiisha: sawa hii ya paysages minakuwa kufwata: mawingu: minaanza: minaanza: yote mara moya/ pale: minafanya mawingu: alafu kama miti: miti itaachana/ sasa: kwa miti minaanza kufanya moya moya: mufano yake moya moya: mufano yake paka vile/
F: na unabakia na modèle moya ao: unauzishaka yote?
N: ah minauzishaka yote/ mi hapana bakia hata ha: na kintu moya/ mm/ minatafuta: mu: catalogue ya mapaysages ya maportraits: bintu gani: mi hapana...
F: catalogue gani?
N: ya baartistes bazamani: sawa yee: sawa ku bazungu: sawa baartistes bengine ba mbali mbali: bale banashi...
F: uko naye?
N: bale banaisha kufanshia kitabu/ niko naye mais ingine: iko na:
N: ...hapana ya: yetu: ya paysages ya humu mwetu mu Afrique: iko paysages ya Europe/
F: oui/ si vile: [pointing to a painting] ile ile: ile:
N: ah sawa vile/ njo yee/
N: njo vile/ mm/
13. F: Now, how many pictures do you have to paint per
week in order to (make a living)?
N: Mm. Every week?
N: If I am not busy with a lot of work...
F: What kind of work (are you talking about)?
N: You mean?
F: Work other (than painting)?
N: Well it is [exasperated] – I’m not just sitting around. There may be something I might do like taking a walk, go to some other place, [claps] hear what’s new, [claps] get around...
N: Yes, that’s what I may be doing. And when I paint there are days where I stay put and it is just work, work, work. (Like that) I could do up to fifteen paintings a week.
N: Mm. Mm. Because if you do twenty or thirty you are going to produce trash, like stuff churned out by a machine. F: Yes, yes.
N: (This is) just producing trash. ...?... The work (of painting) goes slowly. You paint, you go away, and then you are the one who looks (at the picture and decides) whether it is good or not. You paint, you stop, stand at some distance, and look, alright. You don’t paint like you write a letter.
N: Yes. ...?...
F: (When you begin to work) do you start with one painting or with several? As a rule.
N: I don’t know...
F: ...do you start one, finish it, and then start another one? Or do you start several at a time?
N: [overlapping] Take landscapes.
N: (Of those) I can begin with two at a time.
N: With all of them. You understand? There are days when I’ll do the pencil-sketching.
N: If several paintings (are to be done) I draw (the outlines) with a pencil. And then, for instance with these landscapes, the procedure I follow is to start with all the clouds at the same time. But when it comes to trees it’s different. I begin painting every tree separately, (giving) each a different shape.
F: And do you keep to one as a model or do you sell them all?
N: Ah, I sell them all. I don’t keep a single one. Mm. (For models) I don’t search a catalogue for landscapes or portraits, whatever. I don’t...
F: What kind of catalogue?
N: One hat shows the work) of artists of the past, be they European (painters) or artists from far away, those who...
F: Do you have one?
N: ...artists who were published. I have them...
N: ...but they don’t show the landscapes we have here in Africa, they show European landscapes.
F: Yes. Like this one [pointing to a painting], this...
N: Yes, like this one here.
N: Exactly. Mm.
14. F: bon/ [pauses] bon donc: tu: tusumbilie kiloko: juu
ya: maana yake ya kila tableau ha? [turns away to pick up paintings] mais ile
cadres: ma: ni wee unafanya?
F: wee mwenyewe?
F: pasipo: pasipo: [pauses]
N: cadres/ kama minakamata mbao...
F: ...no ile ile: ile: chasis/ ile yote: mbao: na/
N: mbao/ ndiyo/
F: na nguo:
F: ni paka wee u: wee mwenyewe unafanya?
N: ndiyo/ bon: wakati moya minapasula mi moya: wakati ingine: minaenda kupeleka ku mashini: bananipasulia mara moya/
14. Alright. [pauses] Fine, let’s talk now about the
meaning of each of the paintings (before us), right? But (first a question
about) those frames, do you make them?
F: You yourself?
F: Without [pauses]...
N: (To make the frames) I take some lumber...
F: ... no, what I mean is the stretcher. Everything, the wood...
N: The wood, yes.
F: ...and the canvas.
F: You do this all by yourself?
N: Yes. Alright, sometimes I cut (the wood) myself, another time I bring it to a saw where they cut a supply for me.
15. F: bon/ sasa Mamba Muntu/ mm/ ile wakati ulianza:
ulianza na Mamba Muntu?
N: hapana/ sawa: sawa zamani mu: kwandia: kwandia: mu ma: ma soixante: ou kintu wa zamani vile ma: ma cinquante-neuf: cinquante-huit: artistes yote yee hapana kufanya: Mamba Muntu/
N: hapana/ Mamba Muntu banatoka paka d’après soixante: eh? soixante-et-un: soixante-deux/ Mamba Muntu inaanza/
F: ili: ilitoka wapi?
N: mais: mwenye kutangulia kufanya: shi: shikuyua nani anatangulia kufanya/ kwa di: discours: habari yake tunshikia pake vile: kunaikalaka mamba muntu: mu mayi bya hivi hivi/ eh? tunashikia paka vile/ alafu shi: sawa mi par example minaisha kuona: mu nani: mu journal minaona paka vile banafanya mu: mu journal/ mu: mu: mapiers ingine minaona vile/
F: uliona: mamba muntu mu journal?
N: aah/ ya dessin/ banafanya: sawa vile tu bintu tu bintu gani/ mm? banafanya vile/
F: journal ya hapa?
N: aah: ts:
N: hapana photo sawa vile hapana/
F: na paka dessin?
N: aah: paka ya dessin tu/ ya dessin banafanya mm/
N: mm/ oui/
15. F: Fine, now to Mamba Muntu. Mm. At the time when
began painting did you do Mamba Muntu pictures?
N: No. In the past, starting in the sixties or before, in fifty-nine, fifty-eight, none of the artists did Mamba Muntu pictures.
N: No. Mamba Muntu pictures only came up after sixty, right? Sixty-one, sixty-two, that was the beginning of Mamba Muntu.
F: Where did it come from?
N: Well, (if you mean) who had been painting (Mamba Muntu) pictures – I don’t know who that was. (It came) from talking, from reports we heard about Mamba Muntu living in the water, things like that. You understand? That’s what we heard. But we – I, for example, saw (the image) in a newspaper and in other papers.
F: You saw Mamba Muntu in a newspaper?
N: Yes, it was a drawing. The kind of thing that was done. Mm.
F: In a local newspaper?
N: Well, (I don’t remember).
F: What was it like?
N: Not a photograph or something like that.
F: Just a drawing?
N: Yes, just a drawing of the kind they show (in a paper)..
F: Was that long ago?
N: Mm. Yes.
16. F: mais ile: ile mufano ya: hii: hii arisi yake ni
N: ah: ya mamba muntu?
N: ni sababu gani minaona: pa kufanya bulalo hivi pa mayi/ eh? pa kufanya bulalo: kama eko mutoni mukubwa kwa kufi...
N: bon/ pont/ kufanya pont/ bulalo/ we hapana yua bulalo?
N: eh/ pont: yee ya kutraverser kwenda:
F: ah oui oui/
N: ah/ kama yee sawa vile pa Bukama/
N: eh? maneno ile Lualaba mutoni mukubwa ile/
F: njo Luala: Lualaba minao: mina:
N: aah/ alafu kwa kufanya kule: zamani: mina: ina: minaona banasema ah: iko matata: na tunafanya hapa: hapana penda: hivi na hivi: banamwanga nao banamwanga Makuta kule: ou bientôt banamwanga chumvi: mais: bintu bingine bingine/ alafu sababu gani banafanya vile? ah/ tunayua banalipa yee: mwenye mu mayi yee/
F: banalipa mamba muntu?
N: aah/ kwa kufanya bulalo: kwa: kwa kwenda mule: bintu gani/
16. F: But what about her significance, her story?
N: Of Mamba Muntu?
N: Why (do they tell the story)? What I observed had to do with building a bridge over water. You understand? When a bridge was to be built over a large river to get to...
F: A bridge, bulalo?
N: A bridge, pont, bulalo. Don’t you know (the word) bulalo?
N: Yes, a bridge to cross...
F: Ah, yes, yes.
N: Right. Like the one at Bukama.
N: You understand? Because the Lualaba is a big river.
F: I know the Lualaba.
F: Alright. Now, long ago, when they were busy with the construction I noticed that people were talking. There is trouble, (Mamba Muntu) doesn’t like what we are doing here, things like that. So they threw money (into the water), or salt and all sorts of things. But why did they do this? Well, we know that they paid the owner of the water.
F: I see.
F: So they paid Mamba Muntu?
N: Yes. For building the bridge for crossing (the river) there, something like that.
17. F: sawa: bon/ njo yote? njo mufano: mufano yake?
N: mm/ wa: kwa habari ya kitu tunaanza kusikia paka vile: bantu bakubwa bengine banasema: tunaisha kumuona/ banaona na macho/
N: ba: banaona hivi yee: alafu mi: mi shiyaone/
F: mais sababu nani: sababu ya nini eh: iko: saa yote iko [pauses] sawa: sawa: madame muzungu?
N: ah: njo vile bale benye kumuona banasema iko paka muzungu/ habayaona mamba muntu muntu mweushi/ hapana/
F: sababu ya nini?
N: shijue sababu gani banaona iko paka muzungu/ mm/ mi shiyaone mamba muntu muntu mweushi/ niko naona iko paka muzungu/ kama nafanya Mamba Muntu muntu mweushi: ni ku akili yangu/ mi moya minapenda kufanya vile/
N: alafu: surtout: iko paka muzungu/
F: na ile nyoka?
N: aah/ na nyoka pamoya/ na nyoka c’est-à-dire yee: kila ki: hakuna kintu kile kiko makari kwake/ hakuna ki: nyoka haiweze kumulumisha/ yee iko muntu sawa vile muntu magicien:
F: kumbe mufano: maana yake ya: ya nyoka ni nini?
F: ile maana yake ya:
N: ya nyoka?
N: c’est-à-dire yee: ni kusema yee: hana na boka/ eh? mamba muntu hawezi kuongopa/ yee hapana na boga/ hata na kintu kile mi minaongopa: yee hapana ngopa: atakamata/
F: na ile saa yake?
N: mm/ minaona: minishikia be: bantu bengine banasema/ iko wakati moya: anatoka mu mayi: alikuwa kuikala: pa jua: eh? ku kikavu/ et puis: a: anatosha saa anaweka chini sawa ile kintu ya kisheni: anaweka chini: ana: anaacha ona mwili muzuri/ sasa minashikia bantu bengine basasema: kama yee: yee anatoka inje vile: alafu unakwenda pembeni: ku mukongo yaka pole pole: pole pole: kama unafika karibu unafanya makelele mingi: wee ooo: sawa: eh?
N: anashituka vile anakwenda mu mayi: kama anaacha kintu moya vile: kama anasahabu kintu yake pale: wee una: wee unakamata: iko chance/ utaona mara ingine ku bushiko anafika kwako/ eh?
N: leta mi kintu yangu wewe/ alafu unakuwa kumuexpliquer pourquoi unabeba ile kintu/ na yee atakuambia bon: hivi na hivi/ kama a: atakupa chance: unabakia na chance muzuri: ou pengine atafanya namna gani? mi hapana yua/
17. F: Alright. Is that all? Regarding the significance
(of Mamba Muntu)?
N: Mm. Among tales about this subject we also heard that some old people said, we have seen her. There were eye-witnesses.
N: She may have been spotted but I have not seen her yet.
F: Why is it that she [pauses] always looks like a European lady?
N: Ah, that is because those who have seen her say that resembles a European. So far people have not see a black Mamba Muntu.
F: Why is that?
N: I don’t know why they only saw (one that resembles) a European. Mm. I have not seen (a picture of) Mamba Muntu (who resembled) a black person. Whenever I see one she is a European. If I were to paint a black Mamba Muntu it would be something I alone invented because I liked the idea.
N: But, as a rule, Mamba Muntu is a European.
F: What about this snake.
N: Yes, there is the snake, too. (That Mamba Muntu is shown) with a snake means that there is not a thing that is dangerous to her. Nothing. The snake cannot bite her. She is like a magician.
F: I see.
F: So, what is the meaning of the snake?
F: The meaning of...
N: ...the snake?
N: It means that (Mamba Muntu) is fearless, right? Mamba Muntu cannot be afraid. She has no fear. Even something that frightens me, she has no fear, she’ll grab it.
F: And this wrist-watch of hers?
N: Mm. I heard what some people tell. One time (Mamba Muntu) came out of the water and was sunning herself on the shore (lit. dry ground), right? Then she took her watch off and put it down on the ground. Likewise this kind of chain, she put it on the ground and let her beautiful body be seen. Now, what I heard some people tell was, you approach her slowly from behind and when you get close you make a lot of noise, oooh, something like that, right?
N: She will be startled and get into the water. If she left something behind, if she forgot this thing of hers you take it and you get lucky. It may happen that she comes to your place at night. You understand?
N: (She may say) give me that thing of mine. But then you explain why you took it away and she is going to tell you, fine, and you strike up a conversation. If she gives you a chance you will really be lucky or perhaps she will do something, I don’t know.
18. N: eh/ mi: niliona wakati ingine na mu:
mu: mu: mu journal ingine:
N: sawa mu: mu buku eh? histoire ya hivi anafanya/ iko muzungu moya: anatoka kwenda mu: mu kulopola/ samaki/
N: ah/ anakwenda anafika: kati kati ya mayi: ah: iko analopola/ et puis: anaona yee mamba muntu anakuya/
N: anamukamata/ [claps] banaenda mu mayi/
N: banakwenda mu mayi: lululululu: banakwenda kutanisha yee: mamba muntu: baba yake anaikala mule chini ya mayi: eh?
N: na mama yake pamoya/ mule chini ya mayi/ banafika fashi moya iko: mayi hapana/ chini kabisa alafu mayi hapana/
F: aah/ chini kabisa:
N: ni chini kabisa/ eh?
N: eh/ sasa yee: i: anakwenda kule: anakwenda kuita benzake mingi/
N: mamba muntu mingi/ mingi banakuya/ ah: habakumupika ule mu: mu: ule kiyana hapana/ banacheza naye muzuri: banamuelezea bintu gani: ni namuna gani: namuna gani/ et puis: banamukamata tena kwake kumurudisha paka fashi yake yee: ile anakuwa analopolola/
N: alafu: kiyana anakwenda ku njumba yake: yee hapana penda tena/ anakuwa sasa matata: na yee moya anakwenda: anaanguka paka mu mayi yee moya: eh? anafwata: anakwenda paka kuonana mamba muntu/
N: oui/ iko bien tu/ mifano: mifano mingi/
F: mais ile: ile: nyoka mwenye ku: nani: kushuka nywele sasa?
N: [laughs] ...?...
F: ile: ile ma: uliisha kufanya hivi?
N: niliisha kufanya hivi/ niliisha kufanya hivi: mu mara mingi/
N: eeh/ oui/
F: sasa: anaikala mu: nani: anaikala mu mayi ao karibu na mayi ao?
N: anaikala paka mu mayi/
N: mu mayi/ kama unamuona: mu tu: sawa sawa sasa hapa: bantu bengine banafanya yabo ya magie yabo/
18. N: Yes. Once I saw in some newspaper...
N: ...or rather in a book, a story about her ways. There was this European who went fishing.
N: Well, when he arrived in the middle of the water he fished. And then he saw Mamba Muntu coming (close).
N: He took hold of her [claps] and they went into the water.
N: They went down, deeper and deeper, and met the father of Mamba Muntu who lived down there in the water, right?
N: And also her mother, down there in the water. Then they came to a place where there was no water. Deep down but there was no water.
F: I see, really deep down.
N: It was really way down, right?
N: Yes. Then she went around to call her many relatives.
N: Many Mamba Muntu. Many came. They did not attack this young man, they played with him nicely, they explained things to him, all about how (they lived). And then they took him back to the place where he had been fishing.
N: But when the young man went back to his home he did not like it anymore. He was troubled now and, on his own, he went down in the water, right? All he wanted was to meet Mamba Muntu again.
N: Yes. It was something desirable. There are many stories (of this kind).
F: But what about this snake who is combing (Mamba Muntu’s) hair?
F: Have you done this before?
N: This is how painted it, many times.
F: I see.
N: Well, yes.
F: I see.
F: So where does she live, in the water, or near the water?
N: She just lives in the water.
N: In the water. If you see her, that is the moment when nowadays some people work their magic.
19. F: na ile paysage: ile bilima kule/
F: na mayi makasa/
F: uliona: uliona wapi?
N: bile ya bya bile?
N: minaona: na: vile mu maphotos ingine/
F: mu maphotos?
N: eeh/ mu maphotos ingine/
F: ulipenta cadre/
N: mm? cadre/ ah bien/
F: juu ya nini?
F: [overlapping] mara ingine unapenta: mara ingine haupenta/
N: ahah/ kwa sababu: hivi iko muzuri: hii [points to other painting] ya nani: ya paysage/ hai: haipashe zaidi vile ku: kupenta vile hapana/
F: sawa: [pauses]
N: paysage inapasha inakala kote kote yo: pori yote muzuri/ mm/
F: usema: unasema: mapaysages inapashwa ku?
N: mm/ yee hapana: kufanya sawa: hii ya muntu kule/ mm/
F: kumbe cadre: unaweka paka: kama unapenta muntu?
N: aah/ ku paysage mi bado kuweka cadre hapana/ shiyaweke/ pamoya sawa hivi ya: hii ya mwanamuke/ mm/
N: ndiyo/ mina: minawekaka encadrement/
N: minawekaka/ mina...
F: ...utaweka sasa?
F: non/ [points to painting] ile hauwekake/
19. F: And what about the landscape, those mountains
F: And snow.
F: Where did you see this?
N: Things like that?
N: I saw this on some photographs.
F: On photographs?
N: Yes, on some photographs.
F: (And) you painted a frame.
N: Mm? A frame, well yes.
N: I painted it.
F: What for?
F: [overlapping] Sometimes you paint one, sometimes you don’t.
N: I see. Because it goes nicely with this painting whereas this painting of landscape [points to another painting] doesn’t really need a painted frame.
F: Like [pauses]...
N: In a landscape, the whole countryside is bound to fit together. Mm.
F: You are saying, landscapes is bound to do what?
N: Mm. You don’t paint it like this painting of a person there. Mm.
F: So you add a frame only when you paint a person?
N: Yes. So far, I haven‘t put frames on landscapes. (A frame was added) also on this painting of a woman. Mm.
N: Yes. (If a person is depicted) I usually add some framing.
F: You don’t usually add (a frame)?
N: I do.
F: Are you going to add one now?
F: No, [points to painting] not on this one.
20. F: [pause] na: banau: banauza tena Mamba Muntu sasa?
N: Mamba Muntu? banauza/ banauza/
N: muntu: mu: muntu yote ule anapenda/ eh/
N: ule anapenda anauza/
F: kwa kwenda kuuzisha: una: ah be: ile kijana: ana: anaenda ku: ku wapi? ku cité? kutembea: wapi?
N: mu cité: ou bien: humu mu ville/
F: mu ville?
N: mm/ mu cité ao mu ville/
F: uko na clients mu: mu ville?
N: eeh/ niko na baclients bengine/ uko: niko na baclients benye kulomba: maphotos ya portrait sawa vile nilifanya yako vile/
N: ah/ na vile niko nao/ sasa kama mi ananiomba ya vile: minaenda kumupelekea/ minamuelezea bon: niko mwenye kufanya na: kintu ingine: minaangaria ile ...?.. minaweka pale kintu ingine ya hivi ya hivi ya paysages: comme ça: ah: anapenda [claps] atasema leta mi nakuwa kuangaria/
20. F: [pause] And do Mamba Muntu pictures still sell?
N: Mamba Muntu? People buy them. People buy them.
F: What kind of people?
N: Everyone who likes these (pictures).
N: Whoever likes them buys them.
F: When this young man goes around selling (your paintings) where does he go? Does he walk through the township or where (else)?
N: In the township or here, in town.
F: In town?
N: Mm. In the township and in town.
F: Do you have customers in town?
F: For instance.
N: Yes, I have some customers. I have customers who place orders, asking for portraits (done) from photographs, like the one I did of you.
N: Yes. I have (customers). When someone asks me (for a painting) I bring it to him. I explain to him that I do other kinds. I look around and let him see some others, landscapes, things like that. If he likes them [claps] he’ll say, bring (some), I’ll look at them.
21. F: ile bintu ya ile: sasa: ni mashua/
F: sasa maana yake ni nini?
N: sawa hivi: minaweka pale: [points to an inscription of the painting] ya eh?
N: ...soixante: soixante-cinq/
F: unaandika kiloko: ya kule: ku:
F: mpembeni/ soixante:
N: na soixante-cinq/ sawa vile ile ya mashua minafanya: iko wakati: ile ya: ya so: mu soixante-et-un/ eh? bele: baréfugiés balitoka huku/ baréfugiés unayua? hii wakati ya matroubles/
F: ya: ya: Baluba?
N: aah/ baréfugiés banatoka hapa kwenda Kasai/ donc walikwenda Kinshasa: walikwenda Port Francqui: walikwenda wapi: mais: kulikuwa bantu ya hivi: banafanya matata kule/ kulikuwa masoldats/ banaweka kule juu ya kwenda kupeleka bantu: ku mashua/ mais kulikuwa bantu ba hivi: banakuwa kuattaquer ku mashua/
F: attaquer na: ni balikuwa banani?
N: bantu ya mu njia humu/ ni Luba: baLuba: ya Balubakat/ bantu gani bengine/ puisque bantu tulikuwa paka troublés: hakuna muntu tranquil: hakuna gouvernement ya muzuri: hakuna nini: bantu yote balikuwa paka...
F: wee uliisha kuona hii?
F: wee ulish: ulish: uliisha kuona?
N: aah/ maneno pamoya mi pamoya nilikwenda/
F: wee ulikuwa mu: mu kazi ya mashua?
N: aah/ nilikwenda pamoya mu: baréfugies na mi/
F: aah/ ile wakati ulirudia Kasai?
N: eeh/ na mi nilirudia/ [chuckles]
F: kwa kukala hapa mu: mu camp des réfugiés:
N: aah/ niliikala huku/ et puis wakati inaenea: tunakwenda/ tunaenda na mashua ku kwenda beba avions: ku: ku Kamina/ ku base/
F: kumbe balifukuza tena ba: ba: baLulua: sawa vile baLuba: bote?
F: wee uko...?...
N: [overlapping] bengine hapana kufukusha ba: boka tu/ kama unaona bantu ...?... wee utabakia? unasikia boga/ unaenda mu kazi: banasema ah: wee uko kama muntu ya Kasai: hivi na hivi: unabakia huku kwangu? uko na malchance partout/ pika pika: bule: hakuna ...?... muntu ataangaria kabisa kabisa/
F: sawa kama banaona hapa: bana: haba: kama anaona: ni paka muntu wa Kasai/ kama ni Lulua: ao:
N: mm/ ao baKasai...
F: [overlapping] ...Luba: ni paka baKasai?
N: ni paka Kasai/ mm/
F: mm/ [pauses] unawaza sababu: sababu ya nani: ya nini: bantu banapenda ile mashua? bana: banauza bya mingi/
N: aah/ banauza?
N: ni juu: banaweza ku: kukumbuka/ mambo ya zamani/
N: ah/ kwa kuweza kukumbuka mambo ya zamani/ hivi tunafanya: mashua kwa kuweza kukumbusha kwangu ilipita zamani/ banakuwa kueleza mu kinywa: kama mina: minaeleza mutoto mu kinywa: shikia zamani tuli: tulikwenda na mashua: bilikuwa hivi kwetu/ tulifanya attaque mu njia hivi na hivi/ yee hapana: alafu: unasema: unamuonyesha nakumuonyesha: angaria hii: ilikuwa hivi: ilikuwa hivi/ eh/ banashikia/
F: ni ile mama: ile: ile namna unafanyaka tu siku yote?
F: ile: ile namna: tunaonaka?
N: mm/ minafanya hivi/
21. F: (Now to) those recent paintings (like) The Train.
F: What is its meaning?
N: Of the train?
N: Its what I put down there [points to an inscription of the painting], right?
F: I see.
N: ...sixty, sixty-five.
F: You wrote it in small letters, there on...
F: ...on the side. Sixty...
N: ...to sixty-five. This painting of a train (shows) what happened in sixty-one, right?
When the refugees left here. Do you know about the refugees, about that time of unrest?
F: Involving the Baluba?
N: Yes. The refugees here left for the Kasai. They went to Kinshasa, to Port Francqui, wherever. But there were certain people who caused trouble (where the train passed). There were soldiers who had been placed there to get people onto the train. But there were certain people who attacked the trains.
F: Who were the ones who attacked?
N: People living along the track here (in Katanga). They were Luba, members of Balubakat and others. Because people were just troubled, no one was calm, there was no decent government, nothing. Everyone was just...
F: Did you witness this?
F: Have you seen it?
N: Yes. Because I was among those who left.
F: Your were in this business with the train?
N: Yes. I left together with the refugees.
F: I see. Did you go back to the Kasai at that time?
N: Yes, I, too, went back. [chuckles]
F: What about staying here in the refugee-camp?
N: Yes, I was here (in this camp). And then came the time when we left. We went by train to be brought to airplanes at the (military) base in Kamina.
F: So that was when they expelled (people from Kasai), like Lulua and Luba, and all those?
F: Were you...
N: [overlapping] Some were not expelled, it was fear (that made them leave). When you see people (acting like that) are you going to stay? You are afraid. When you went to work they would say, you (look) like someone from the Kasai and that sort of thing, (why) do you live here in my country? Everywhere you run into trouble, being beaten up for nothing. No one is going (to stay) and just watch what happens.
F: So, the way people see it here, no matter whether someone is Lulua or...
N: Mm, Kasaians.
F: [overlapping] ...or Luba, he is a Kasaian?
N: He is a Kasaian. Mm.
F: Mm. [pauses] Why do you think people like paintings of the Train and buy so many of them.
N: Well, why they buy them?
N: Because then they can remember what happened in the past.
N: Yes, to be able to remember what happened in the past. So we paint (pictures) of the Train that can remind (customers), that is what happened at my place long ago. They (also) talk about it. For instance, if I explain this to a child by talking about it, saying, listen, long ago we were in this attack on the railroad, things like that, the child may not believe you. However, if you tell and show him, look at this (painting), this is how it happened, then it will be understood.
F: Is this how you always paint the Train?
F: Like (in the picture) we are looking at?
N: Yes, this is how I paint it.
22. F: bon/ kiisha ingine: [picks up painting] kama: kama banaomba ile: ile:
N: hii mashua/
F: bana: banas: banasema nini? banataya namna gani?
N: banasema sawa utufanshie mashua/
F: na hii?
N: ah Gécamines: banasema paka vile: utufanshie Gécamines/
F: si banasema: mumbunda na...
N: ah: bengine banasema utufanshie ya mumbunda/ bengine banasema utufanshie ya Gécamines/ paka vile/
F: bon/ ile unaona: ile una: ulitosha tuuu: akili yako ao: ulikuwa kuangaria:
N: ah/ kwa Gécamines eh?
N: mi hapana kuangaria/ mina: minafanya paka mu akili yangu/ sawa vile minaonaka: minaonaka chapu mbali/ vile minaona mbali: minafanya paka vile/ mm/
F: ah: ku nyumba yako unaweza kuona?
N: ku nyumba yangu? kwa kuona...
F: kwa: kwa kuona: Gécamines/
N: aah naona kama mbali/ manyumba pa ku tu ona paka ma ile mampala inaonekana na mumbunda mais:
F: [overlapping] mm/
N: alafu chapu hapana inaonekana/
F: na ile unawaza: bantu bana: banuzi: banauza sababu gani?
N: hii: banauza hii? ah/ bana: banauza: kwa kuweza kutenge: kuweka mu nyumba kutengeneza/ kutengeneza mu nyumba: mm? ...?... banauza: beko na maexplications kwa kuweza kueleza: na mutoto yake hii: kintu gani/
F: explication gani?
N: atasema na mutoto: alafu kama: eeh: mutoto anasema: baba: alafu ile chapu iko namna gani? hivi na hivi/ ah: atasema angarie kule yulu/ iko hivi na hivi/ ile iko ...?.../ atasema/ bengine banauza: juu: iko mu bantu bengine: bote hapana ba humu: mu chapu/ bengine banatoka Kinshasa/
N: bengine banatoka Luluabourg: bengine banatoka Mbuji Mayi: eh? sasa kama anaona hivi: atauza juu: kwa kuweka mu nyumba/ pa kwenda: pa kwenda kule: anakwenda nayee pamoya: natoka: atakumbuka juu: eh? ile: chapu ya kule paka inaikala toujours: inaikala toujours/ mm/
F: sawa mu: mumbunda ingine niliisha kuona: aah [pauses] ile: ndege ya: ya militaire: ile inafa...
N: aah ile banafanya maavions ni kukumbusha ile wakati ya mamvita/
F: sawa wee unaona: vita kunaisha:
N: eeh/ bengine banafanya vile ba: ba: kumbusha wakati ya mamvita/ minaona: bengine banafanya Gécamines: banamufanya: na basoldats kule karibu/ na mi: niliisha kufanya vile wakati ingine/
N: mm/ minafanya kule na avions pamoya minafanya/
F: mais sasa unafanya pake vile hii?
N: iko paka Gécamines/ na hata minafanya avions: mi hapana fanya: minafanya so: soldats kule ya vita tu/
F: bale bantu bana: ba: Gécamines: bana: banauza bya: bya mingi?
N: bantu ya Gécamines?
N: bengine banauza: bengine yee hapana uza/
F: unauzish: unae...
F: unaenda kuuzi: kuuzisha kule ku camp? ya:
N: sawa sawa mi ni soezi?
N: mi hapana tembea na tableaux yangu kwenda kuuzisha/
F: mais: ile kijana?
N: ile kijana anauzisha/ kama anapata commande kule: banasema: anakuwa kusema na mi/ banasema fanya kintu fulani/ minafanya/ banasema fanya Gécamines: ya hivi: ya mu vita ya avions: bintu gani/ minafanya/
F: na: kama anarudia: kila mara:
F: yee anapashwa kukuelezea? ali: alienda wapi: aliuzish: ali: aliuza wapi? aliuzisha wapi?
N: mm/ atasema/ anasema/ ou: ou kama mi hapana: kama wakati ingine: ah: analeta paka Makuta/ yee hapana sema kintu/ minauliza: habari gani kule ulienda: kama iko commandes: ou bien kama iko kintu gani/ wakati minaokwenda: anarudia na maphotos ya maportraits: minafanya...?.../ anarudia kuonyesha: minabakia paka mu kufanya/
N: eh/ minabi: naisha: asubui minamupatia: anakwenda naye/ paka vile/
22. F: Alright. Now to another one [picks up painting].
(But first), when people order this one.
N: This Train.
F: What to they say? How do they call it?
N: They say, do the Train for us.
F: And this one?
N: Ah, Gécamines. This is how they talk, do a Gécamines for us.
F: Don’t they say “The Smokestack and...
N: Yes, some say, do a (painting of the Smokestack) for us, others say, do one of Gécamines for us, like that.
F: I see.
F: Alright. Where did you get this (scene) from, your imagination or from observation?
N: (You mean) the Gécamines, right?
N: I don’t paint from sight (lit. I don’t look). I only work with my imagination. I always see the factory far away. I paint it as I see it from a distance. Mm.
F: Ah, you can see it from you house?
N: From my house? See...
F: ...see the Gécamines.
N: Well, I see it from far away, just some buildings. The waste dump and the smokestack are visible.
F: [overlapping] Mm.
N: But not the factory.
F: And why do think people buy this (painting).
N: Why they buy it? Well, they buy it to put it up and embellish the interior of their house. To embellish a house inside, right? ...?... they buy it (also) because then a person has something to explain to his child, (tell him) what it is about.
F: What kind of explanation?
N: If the child asks, Father what is this factory about, he’ll tell him all kinds of things, look up there, it has this and that. Others buy it because not everyone comes from this place with its factory. (For instance) some people are from Kinshasa.
N: Others come from Luluabourg or Mbuji Mayi, right? Now when he sees this sight he may buy (a painting) to put it up in his house. He walks by this place and he is going to remember it afterwards because (of the painting), right? It’s this factory that is always there. Mm.
F: I have seen other (paintings of the) smokestack, [pauses] those with military planes.
N: Ah, when those planes are painted then it is to remind (people) of the times of war.
F: The way you see it, war is over.
N: Yes. Some paint it this way as a reminder of the times of war and I observe that others paint the Gécamines with soldiers nearby. I have done this, too, on other occasions.
N: Mm. I have done (this painting) with airplanes.
F: But nowadays you do it just like this one?
N: Just the Gécamines. And even when I painted airplanes, I did not include soldiers fighting there.
F: People who work for Gécamines – do they buy many paintings (of this kind)?
N: People who work for Gécamines?
N: Some buy, others don’t.
F: Are you selling...
F: Do you go there to the workers’ settlement to sell?
N: What I usually do?
N: I don’t go around with my paintings to sell them.
F: But what about this young man (who works for you)?
N: He sells. When he gets an order there and people tell him (what they want), he comes back and tells me, this is the kind of thing they told me you should do, I do it. If they say, do a Gécamines, the kind (that shows it) during war, with airplanes, or whatever, I do it.
F: And every time he comes back.
F: Is he supposed to tell you about it, where he went, where he sold (paintings)?
N: Mm. He’ll talk about it. He’ll talk about it. Or, when I don’t happen to be there or sometimes he just brings the money, without saying anything. I ask him about what happened there, whether there were orders, or whatever. Sometimes, when I am away, he returns with photographs for portraits. I paint them and he goes back to show (them to the customers). I just stay put and do (the painting).
N: Yes. When I am finished with them I give them to him in the morning and he takes off with them. That’s how it goes.
23. F: kiisha: [picks up another painting] tuko tena na:
F: ile yote tatu tunaona: iko paysages? [handles paintings]
F: ile: moya: mbili: tatu/
N: ndiyo/ ni paysages/
F: kama banaom: bantu banaomba hii: bana: banasema namna: banataya namna gani?
N: hivi minafanya ni ku: akili yangu/ alafu kama minauzisha muntu moya: eh? mwengine anapenda/ atasema: unifanshieko tableau ya mama: ana: anakwenda ku mayi: ya mwanamuke anakwenda ku mayi vile: ou: ou bien anatoka ku mayi/ aah: mi minayua asema ah: eh/ ni ya vile: minafanya/
F: na ile ingine/
N: aah ile njo ya banaita kama ya balumba/
F: ya balumba?
N: balumba/ c’est-à-dire bale kulum....
N: kulumbata eh/
N: alafu muntu unifanshieko ya: ile bantu banfukusha nyama mu pori/
F: mm/ na ile ni: [pause] ulipaka nyama ku:
F: ongoye kiloko/ [interruption, children talking]
F: [points to another painting] yee ...?... banataya namna gani?
N: hii? ya mukini/
N: mukini/ kama ...?... kamukini vile: [claps] na ba: na bantu ekoamo: banafanya huku [claps] eh/
F: [pause] mm/
F: sasa: [picks up painting] donc: ile/
F: ile ya mwanmuke ya: ya kweli: kushanga mi/
N: mm/ paka vile banamuke: banasema utu: utufansie mwanawa: utufansie mwanamuke mais ikuwe kilari wazi/
N: eh/ utufansia mwanamuke tu muzuri mwenye kuwa kilari wazi: eh: mm/
F: unauzishaka ya mingi?
F: unais: una: unauzishaka: eeh: ya mingi vile/
N: ah: minauzishaka/
F: kwa nani?
N: ku: bantu: ou bientôt benye kuwa tu na nyumba muzuri: banauzauza/ ao benye kuwa na: na boîtes de nuit: banaomba: mm?
F: boîtes de nuit?
N: mm/ moya moya: mu bars eh?
N: mm/ banaomba/ ao mu mahôtels: banauza/
F: mu mahôtels vile?
F: na ile: ile fumeur/
F: unauza: unaz: unauza mingi?
F: mm/ sasa njo ni: ah?
N: njo ma: njo mamodèles mingi minafanyaka/ sawa yee hivi ya vile: kama minapelekaka na mutoto: inakwenda/ utasikia mara ingine atasema: banaomba: tena muntu ingine anaomba ile yake/ ao banaomba ya vile bintu/ paka vile/
23. F: Then [picks up another painting] we still have a
F: All the three we have been looking at, are they landscapes? [handles paintings]
F: These here, one, two, three.
N: Yes, those are landscapes.
F: When people ask for them what do the say, how do they call them?
N: (Paintings) like these?
N: When I paint like this it comes from my imagination. But when I sell (a painting) to a person, right? -- may have a preference and say, paint me a picture of a mama as she goes to fetch water, or of a woman who comes back with water. Well, then I know (what he wants) and I do it.
F: And now this other one.
N: Ah, that is one people call (a painting) of hunters.
F: Of hunters, balumba?
N: Balumba, which means people who...
F: ...go hunting.
N: Who go hunting, yes.
F: I see.
N: A customer may ask me, do a painting for me of people chasing animals in the bush.
F: Mm. And on this one [pause] you painted animals in (the bush).
F: Wait a moment. [interruption, children talking]
F: [points to another painting] And how do they call this one?
N: This one? (A painting) of a village.
F: A small...
N: ...village. It shows a small village [claps] with people who are busy (doing something) [claps], yes.
F: [pause] Mm.
F: Now [picks up painting] this one.
F: This is (a painting) of a real woman. I am surprised.
N: Mm. Just a woman. I was told, do us a woman but she should be naked.
F: I see.
N: Yes, paint a beautiful naked woman for us. Mm.
F: Do you sell a lot of those?
F: Do you sell many paintings of this kind?
N: This one?
N: Yes, I do.
F: To whom?
N: Mostly to people who have a beautiful house, they often buy it. Or to owners of nightclubs who order it, right?
N: Mm. A few of them (go to) bars, you understand?
N: Mm. There is a demand. Or (to be put up in) hotels. They buy them.
F: In hotels also?
F: And this (painting of a) smoker.
F: Do you sell many of those?
N: People buy them.
F: They do?
F: Mm. Now those are – yes?
N: Those are the many kinds I paint. When I have them taken around by the young man they are sold. He’ll tell me that people ask for them. A person may place a special order or there may be a demand for these kinds of objects, that’s how it is.
24. F: [pauses] kumbe ile ni modèles unafanyaka sasa? ile
F: ile tuliona: ile yote/
N: ahah/ ndiyo/ mais:
F: sawa kama unaenda Zambie:
N: kama minaenda ku Zambia eh?
N: nikienda ku Zambia: minafanya: hii ya: hii ya bichwa vile: minafanya hata: kama nikiende na tableaux quarante: mitafanya bya bichwa moya hata dix: ao huyo: ao ngapi kuchangachanga mifano mifano: hapana kufanya paka paysages: ao hapana kufanya paka: paka ya: bichwa: hapana/
N: aah/ unafanya bintu différents/ unafanya: ya paysage hata quinze/ na unafanya bichwa na hata: hata dix kama banataka ao bintu bengine: mifano gani/
F: na unaweza kutoka vile? habafanyake ya matata ku: nani: ku frontière?
N: na: na kwa: shiyue kama banafanya matata niko hapa sasa: juu ya: banatafuta namna ...?...
N: alafu zamani minakwenda nayo: hapana: banafunga mu buku [claps] ya bintu ya kulipisha: hamuna ...?.../
N: hapana/ kama nitafika: kama minapenda kusemasema: mitasema bon...
F: na wee: ni wee moya: moya: unaenda ao?
F: ku: na kubeba quarante tableaux? ni mingi/
F: unabeba quarante tableaux?
N: aah/ nilibeba quarante/
N: juu ya...
F: na unaenda na mashua?
N: ndiyo/ ao na motokari/ ku mabus inakwendaka: macombis ya kwenda/ kufika pale pa frontière ya Kasumbalesa: unapata mataxis ya: Zambia iko mule/
N: kupita kule/ mm/
F: na kule: ku: Zambie banauza: mingi?
N: ah iko bintu: hapana kusema banauza mingi/ ao/ iko bintu ba minatembea kwa: hapana mi moya minakwenda kule/ ao hapana: kuko baartistes bengine kule/
N: aah/ iko sawa vile mu a: namna minakuambia asema: ma: matableaux: ao mu hii kazi ya dessin: iko sawa vile: manguo ya Solbena vile/ eh?
N: iko: sawa vile écriture/ huyu anaandika muzuri: huyu anandika mubaya: huyu anaandika: eh? ana: na hata tunaweka ya mingi/ ou ...?... tunaweka bamingi mais: angarie: batakuya mara ingine: banauza hii/ [points] eh? eh tutakwenda mi hapana yua asema kumbe: ingine anafanya hii/ kama unafika kule: banaangaria hii: banauza/ mm? bon: mwengine atakuya anapita hii: anakuya anaangaria hii: anauza/ paka vile/
24. F: [pauses] Are those the kinds (of pictures) you are
painting nowadays? The ones...
N: The ones?
F: ...we looked at, all those.
N: Yes. Yes, but.
F: For instance, when you travel to Zambia.
N: When I go to Zambia, right?
N: When I go to Zambia I paint those portraits. If I plan on taking along forty paintings, I paint about ten identical portraits just to mix different kinds instead of doing only landscapes or only portraits.
F: You mix them?
N: Yes. You paint different things, perhaps fifteen landscapes, ten portraits, and whatever other kinds people want.
F: And you can leave just like that? Don’t they give you trouble at the border?
N: ...?... if they make trouble when I am there it is because they want...?...
F: ...you to pay...
F: ...them off?
N: But it didn’t use to be like that. When I travelled with (paintings) they would enter them in a book of things you had to pay duty for. There was (no trouble).
N: No. When I would get there and wanted to argue I would say, alright....
F: And you travelled alone, or?
F: Carrying forty paintings? That’s a lot.
F: Carrying forty paintings?
N: Yes, I carried forty.
F: And you went by train?
N: Yes. Or by car, on those combi-busses that go there. When you come to the border at Kasumbalesa you catch taxis from Zambia that are (waiting) there.
N: To go on from there. Mm.
F: And over there, in Zambia, do they buy many (paintings)?
N: Well, this is something – you can’t say they buy a lot. When I go around to (sell) I am not the only one to go there. There are other artists around.
N: Yes. It’s as I told you when I said that with paintings it like with the business of designs produced by Solbena, right?
N: It is like handwriting. There is one who has a beautiful hand, another one’s is bad, still another one... You understand? We exhibit many (paintings) but, see, people may come and buy just this one kind [points], right? When we travel I don’t know whether another one does these (paintings). Once you are there, people look at them and buy them, right? Someone may come and walk by one kind (of paintings), then he goes on to look at another kind and buys. That’s how it is.
25. F: ile: nani: kufa: ku...?...ile:
tunaona: ile simba/
F: Kabinda/ unamufahamu?
N: Kabinda/ mi hapana kufahamu/
F: mm/ alikuwa kutumika hapa zamani/
N: mm/ ...?...
F: mu Kolwezi una: unafahamu: eh: bapeintres ingine?
N: Kolwezi shi: mi hapana kwenda kule/ mi: mina: minabakia kiloko paka pa: ku Likasi/
N: eeh/ na ku Likasi minatoka na ...?.../
N: [pauses] Kolwezi minapita paka vile na mashua vile/ mi hapana tembea: mimi hapana ona hata cités ya Kolwezi namna gani/
F: ahah/ mm/
F: mm/ bon/ [recording interrupted] ...nilisahabu ku: kukuuliza/
F: unatumikaka inje: ao ndani ya nyumba?
N: natumikia paka ndani ya nyumba/
F: paka ndani ya nyumba?
N: kama minatumikia inje: sawa kazi ya: dessin: kutumikia inje: habi tu onekana muzuri mu macho/ ao wee: hautaona: muzuri hapana/ puisque: attaque ya: ya jua:
N: inafanya kule: hautaona muzuri/ ah tutakuwa napasha paka fashi muzuri: iko baridi: haikuwe na: haikuwe mu inje hapana/
F: mm/ hata mapaysages: unafanya hata ku...
N: ...hata mapaysage paka: minafanya paka mu: unaona kila mara mi: minavwala hii/ [points to sun glasses] maneno na kiloko na mu nyumba/ kama minatoka inje: yua inafanya mi/
N: ah oui/
F: kumbe unavwala maglasi hii/
N: mm/ mara kila mara: niko paka nikala humu mu nyumba: minamutimika mu nyumba mu nyumba/ ni pa kutoka inji minapasha kuvwala: makalassi/
N: mm: kama tunaingia inje: yua inafanya ku tableau: hapana na ...?... muzuri/ inje iko moins/ ma: mangaribi six heures: kama: kazi inaisha wa lumière: inatafuta kuisha: inaanza kuisha:
N: kama moya inafanyika kwiko: kupeleka kesho: eh? minaweza ku: kufanya inje ba: minaona baimbwa banakuwa mweushi: minaanza fanya juu: juu ya mi kuisha/
N: kupeleka kintu busubui/
N: ni vile/
25. F: The one who painted (the picture) of a lion we saw.
F: (That was) Kabinda. Do you know him?
N: (Who is) this?
N: Kabinda, I don’t know him.
F: Mm. He used to work here long ago.
N: Mm. ...?...
F: Do you know other painters in Kolwezi?
N: In Kolwezi?
N: I don’t go to Kolwezi, for a little while I lived in Likasi.
F: In Likasi?
N: Yes. And then I left Likasi...?....
N: [pauses] Kolwezi I just passed on the train. I did not walk around and look what the townships in Kolwezi are like.
F: I see. Mm.
F: Mm. Alright. [recording interrupted] ...I forgot to ask you.
F: Usually, do you work outside or inside the house?
N: I only work inside the house.
F: Only inside the house?
N: If I work outside – doing work like painting – things do not look right to the eye. Or you are not going to see well because of the glare (lit. the attack) of the sunlight...
N: ... you are not going to see well. What we need is a nice place, where it is cool, and that won’t be outside.
F: Mm. Even landscapes you do...
N: ...even landscapes I paint only inside – you see that I always wear these things [points to sunglasses] but rarely inside the house. When I go outside the sun bothers me.
F: I see.
F: So you wear these glasses.
N: Mm. I always stay inside the house, I work inside the house. When I go outside I need to wear sunglasses.
N: Mm. When we go outside the sun shines on the painting and that is not good. It is not right, outside. In the evening, around six o’clock , when the daylight is about to fade?
N: And if there is one (painting) that remains to be done so it can be delivered the following day and I see that the dogs turn black I may work on it (outside) just to finish it.
N: So that it can be delivered in the morning.
N: That’s how it is.
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