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ISSN: 1570-0178

Volume 12, Issue 2 (6 October 2009)



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Conversations about Katanga Genre Painting in the 1970s

transcribed , translated, and annotated by

Johannes Fabian

University of Amsterdam


address:
Amsterdam School for Social Science Research
University of Amsterdam
Kloveniersburgwal 48
1012 CX Amsterdam
The Netherlands


 

Introduction

Text One

Text Two

Text Three

Text Four

Text Five

Text Six

Text Seven

Text Eight

Text Nine

 

 

Text One

A conversation with Kanyemba Yav, recorded April 25, 1973 at J. Fabian’s home in Kolwezi.

Note: The first part of this conversation turned around Kanyemba’s membership in the Bapostolo church and his knowledge of the Jamaa movement. Starting with paragraph 6, painting became the main topic.


 

Swahili text and English translation

1. F: ...eh: mbele ya: ya kusumbulia juu ya: ya: peinture:
K: ndiyo/
F: sawa vile ulisema: wee uli: uliisha kujua Jamaa: ulisema mu wakati ya waBelges?
K: ndiyo/
F: ulikutana wapi?
K: ile nkundi Hatosalisana haikubakia siku mingi/
F: hatosalisana?
K: ndiyo: haikubakia siku mingi/ ilifanya tu siku kidogo: kiisha na indépendent ilituingia na wale walirudia ku Belgique/
F: balikuwa waBelges?
K: balikuwa waBelges ndiyo/
F: na balivwala:
K: balivwala sawa sawa vile bamilitaires/
F: oui/
K: mauniformes: sawa sawa vile bamilitaires:
F: eheh/
K: pantalons khaki: machemises khaki: na berets: sawa vile baparachutistes: bamili: ba Belgique/
F: oui oui/
K: lakini bo habakuwa bamilitaires: habakuwa na bunduki :
F: oui/
K: balikuwa na ashili kidogo ku chemise banaandika Hatosalisana/ mi nalibakutaka mara moya kama niko nakwenda kuuzisha peintures: tulipatana nabo mu chaussee Kasenga: ku ile résidence imaliza mbele/
F: oui oui/
K: ah: bo balikuwa ku ile nyumba/
F: balikuwa ngapi?
K: balikuwa mingi: lakini ku ile nyumba mi tulipatana na moya ni yee tulibakia naye mu Kolwezi/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/
F: na hii wakati: ni kusema: namna ulikutana sa: maneno she tulianza na: kusumbulia juu ya Jamaa/
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: sasa namna gani ulikutana: hii: bo balikutana baJamaa? ao ao: ao nini?
K: ile wakati bo balikuwa: Jamaa ilikuwako/
F: ah bon/
K: Jamaa ilikuwako/ lakini: kintu moya minaona kama: ilitafuta kufanana kidogo na Jamaa sawa sawa hii ya huku kwetu/
F: oui/
K: ile kintu minaona kama sijue ...
F: ...kumbe wee unatoka humu: humu Kolwezi?
K: mimi?
F: oui/
K: hapana/ mimi mbele nilikomelea paka mu Lubumbashi/
F: Lubumbashi/ ah bon/
K: kiisha nikafika mille neuf cent soixante-deux: nikakuya ku Kolwezi/
F: aah/
K: nilifanya mwaka moya huku: tena narudia mara ingine mu Lubumbashi/ nameikala yangu kila mara ni paka Lubumbashi/
F: ulifwata dini ule ule wakati? wee?
K: ile wakati sikuwa ku dini/
F: no?
K: ndiyo/ lakini sasa niye niko ku dini/
F: Jamaa iko: Jamaa iko dini?
K: Jamaa?
F: oui/
K: ah: Jamaa ndiyo iko dini ya kikatolik/
F: aah/
K: eheh/
F: eheh/
K: sawa vile sijue kama uko na namna ya kuita njo inaachana: lakini mi minajua huku kwetu kama unasikia dini bo: eh: nkundi bo banasema Jamaa:
F: mm/
K: ni nkundi ya kikatolik/
F: ah bon/
K: ni bakristiani ba kikatolik banachangana: bananfanya: eh?
1....(there is something I’d like to ask you) before we talk about painting.
K: Yes.
F: As you said, you knew about the Jamaa. Was this in Belgian times?
K: Yes.
F: Where did you come across them?
K: This group “Hatosalisana”[1] was not around for long.
F: Hatosalisana?
K: Yes, (but) it was not around for long. It was active only for a short time and when Independence came those people went back to Belgium.
F: They were Belgians?
K: They were Belgians, yes.
F: And did they wear (a uniform)?
K: They dressed like military.
F: Yes.
K: In uniforms, like military.
F: I see.
K: (They wore) khaki pants, khaki shirts, and berets, like the parachutists from Belgium.
F: Yes, yes.
K: But they were not military, they were not armed.
F: Yes.
K: They had this little badge[2] on their shirts, written “Hatosalisana.” I met them once when I was going around selling paintings. We ran into each other on the  Chaussée de Kasenga, at the first apartment house that was built there.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Yes, they were in this house.
F: How many were there of them?
K: There were many of them but at the house I met only one. He had been staying with us in Kolwezi.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes.
F: About that time and about how you met (this group) – actually we started out talking about the Jamaa.
K: Yes [chuckle]
F: So, now about how you met them. Was it that those people got together with members of the Jamaa, or what is it (you are telling me)?
K: At the time when (Hatosalisana) was active the Jamaa was around.
F: Alright then.
K: The Jamaa existed. But one thing I observed was that (Hatosalisana) tried to look a little like the Jamaa from around here.
F: Yes.
K: What I saw, I don’t know...
F: ...so you are from this place here, Kolwezi?
K: Me?
F: Yes.
K: No. I first grew up in Lubumbashi.
F: Lubumbashi. I see.
K: Then I came to Kolwezi in 1962.
F: Ah.
K: I spent a year here and then I went back to Lubumbashi. My home really was Lubumbashi.
F: Did you follow a religion at that time?
K: At that time I did not belong to a religion.
F: Is the Jamaa a religion?
K: The Jamaa?
F: Yes.
K: Well, yes the Jamaa is a catholic religious group.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
K: I don’t know whether you can call it a separate (group). What I do know is that here in this place when you hear about religion, or rather about a religious group, they talk about the Jamaa.
F: Mm.
K: It is a catholic group.
F: Ah, alright.
K: It was Christians of the catholic faith who got together and started (this group), right?
2. F: na wee unafwataka: dini: dini gani?
K: dini ku uPostolo/
F: muPostolo: ha? niliona: na ndevu yako/
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: ahah/ ahah/ uliingia mu: mu uPostolo: eh: s: mu wakati gani?
K: nili: niliingia mu mille neuf cent cinquante-huit/
F: cinquante-huit?
K: ndiyo/ ningali mutoto: ndevu bado/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo [chuckles]
F: sasa: mi niliisha ku: kubaona kule ku: bali: balikutana kule karibu na Musonoi/
K: ndiyo/
F: ku pori/
K: ndiyo/
F: ah? karibu paka/
K: ndiyo/
F: balivwala:
K: ndiyo/
F: ah?
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: sasa gouvernement anakatala eh?
K: sasa alikatala: alafu sasa tena anaitika/
F: ah/
K: ndiyo/
F: anaitiki tena?
K: anaitika ndiyo/ sababu mbele balisema: sasa hamutaomba/ na tuliikala: alafu sasa na bo banasema munapashwa kuomba/
F: ah bon/
K: ni vile tu sawa tuko ...
F: alafu ban: bana: banakatala hii kanzu na ...? ...
K: [overlapping] hapana: tuko tunaomba yote tu sawa zamani/
F: na unamukutana humu?
K: ndiyo/
F: Kolwezi?
K: ndiyo/ ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: ah: mi niliona kama ilikuwa nguvu: sawa vile mi: mi muzungu: ilikuwa nguvu ya: ya: ya kukutana nabo/
K: haiko nguvu kwa sababu hapa sasa tuko na muzungu moya wa kiAmerique/ yee...
F: ali: aliisha...
K: yee iko ndani ya nkundi yetu/
F: ya muPostolo?
K: ya kiPostolo angaliki ndiyo/
F: hapa Kolwezi?
K: hapana hapa Kolwezi/ yeye alipatikana nawaza: safari ya kwanza: alipatikana kipande ya Kasai/ na bakamubeba: kule ku kipande ya Kasai: balienda naye mupaka Zambia ku Lusaka kwa sababu hii dini ya tshiPostolo: ni dini inye kutoka kule ku: Rhodésie du S:
F: Rhodésie/
K: Rhodésie du Sud: nawaza: ndiyo/
F: oui oui/ c’est ça/ Rhodésie/
K: ilitoka ile dini/
F: si njo: Yoanne?
K: Malangu/
F: Yoanne Malangu/
K: aah: John Malangu: ndiyo/
F: mm/
K: ni vile ilifika Lusaka/ sasa kule Lusaka tena: na bakuwa ba huku nao bengine balikwenda kamata: na bo kufika huku/ ni pale balimupata ule kama ni muzungu: sasa ni muzungu wa kwanza huku kwetu: alipashwa atafika kule ku Lusaka kwa sababu njo ku bakubwa/
F: ah bon/
K: balifika kule balimubatiza: na sasa tuko naye mu nkundi yetu/
F: mm/ kumbe sasa inaendelea muzuri?
K: ndiyo inendelea sawa vile dini ya Mungu:
F: [overlapping] eheh/
K: eh? dini ya Mungu...
F: [overlapping] ah minaona mingi: bamingi...
K:... dini ya Mungu: na mambo ya Mungu iko nguvu/ mingi bata...
F: ... hata ile siku: siku ingine tulitembea pori: weee kupita: kupita: ah: Kanzenze:
K: ndiyo/
F: tulifika na mugini moya: tulikutana na chef/
K: Yes.
[another person calls]
Victor: bwana bakia muzuri/
F: eeh: mwende muzuri/
Victor: eyo...?.../
K: merci donc: merci/
F: eh/ sasa: hii chef alikuwa mus: muPostolo/
K: ndiyo/
F: kule ku pori/ eh?
K: ndiyo/
2. F: And you belong to a religion. Which one?
K: The religion (I belong to) is the Bapostolo.
F: You are member of the Bapostolo, right. I saw this from you beard.
K: Yes. [chuckle]
F: I see. When did you join the Bapostolo?
K: I joined them in 1958.
F: 58?
K: Yes. I was still very young and had no beard.
F: I see.
K: Yes, [chuckles]
F: Recently, I saw them when they were meeting there, close to Musonoi.
K: Yes.
F: In the bush.
K: Yes.
F: Right? Not far (from here).
K: Yes.
F: They were wearing (their robes).
K: Yes.
F: Right?
K: Yes. [chuckle].
F: Nowadays the government is against them, right?
K: It was against them but recently they allowed them again.
F: I see.
K: Yes..
F: They allowed them again?
K: They allow them, yes. First they told us that we could not meet to pray. But we continued and now they say you can have your prayer meetings.
F: Ah, alright.
K: So that is how we...
F: Still, they prohibit wearing these robes and ...?...
K: [overlapping] No, we pray and (do) everything as we used to.
F: And you got together with them here?
K: Yes.
F: In Kolwezi?
K: Yes. Yes. [chuckle]
F: Well, I thought it would be difficult for me as a muzungu[3] to meet them.
K: It’s not difficult, right now we have among us a muzungu from America, who...
F: Who became...
K: She is a member or our group.
F: Of the Bapostolo?
K: She is a follower of the Bapostolo, yes.
F: Here in Kolwezi?
K: No, not here in Kolwezi. She first made contact during her first trip, I think this was in the Kasai region. The (the Bapostolo) from Kasai took her along and went with her to Zambia, to Lusaka, because the Bapostolo are a religious movement that comes from Rhodesia.
F: Rhodesia.
K: Southern Rhodesia, I think, yes.
F: Yes. Yes, that’s right. Rhodesia.
K: That’s where this religious movement came from.
F: Was it not Yoanne?
K: Malangu.
F: Yoanne Malangu.
K: Ah, John Malangu[4], yes.
F: Mm.
K: (So the Bapostolo) came to Lusaka where (the movement) still exists and the local elders and some others got it from there, which is how it got to this country. So when they found this person, the first muzungu (to join us) here in our country, she had to visit Lusaka because that is where the leaders are.
F: I see.
K: When they got there she was baptized and now we have her in our movement.
F: Mm. So things are going well now?
K: Yes, things go (as they can be expected to go) in God’s movement.
F: [overlapping] Yes.
K: You understand? A movement that is devoted to God...
F: [overlapping] I see that there are many...
K: ...a movement devoted to God, and the affairs of God – it’s difficult. Many will...
F: ...Just the other day when I travelled in the bush, way past Kanzenze.
K: Yes.
F: We came to a village and met the chief.
K: Yes.
[another person calls]
Victor: Goodbye, bwana[5].
F: Goodbye.
Victor: Yes, ...?...
K: Thanks, thanks.
F: Right, now this chief was a Postolo.
K: Yes.
F: In the bush there.
K: Yes.
3. F: na: hata mwee unafundisha mu? kila muntu anafundisha/
K: kila muntu anafundisha ndiyo/
F: kama roho:
K: kama roho inapita:
F: ina: inamukamata:
K: ndiyo/
F: ah?
K: ndiyo/
F: muntu anafundisha/
K: ah ndiyo/
F: si njo vile?
K: ndiyo/
F: eeh/
K: eh: lakini: ndiyo: roho iko inakamata mupande mbili/
F: mupande mbili?
K: mupande mbili/ lakini ku namna ya kufundiza: sijue ya kusema paka roho hakamate hapana/ kufundiza: kama bakubwa banasema bon: simama: uonyeshe namna gani mambo uko naye ku roho ya Mungu/
F: mm/
K: kintu gani unapenda kusema juu ya kuwazesha banduku sababu ya mambo ya Mungu/ na utasimama: utaanza kueleza/
F: mm/
K:: na ile saa mule mu nkundi mule kuko bengine beko na Saint Esprit/
F: mm/
K: ya Mungu inatoka sasa: anaanza nayee kueleza paka vile/
F: be: ni paka: bengine: mu: mu makutano? banasimama? si vile?
K: kwa sababu: kama sisi wote tuko benye kuikala:
F: ah/
K: ya sawa hivi tunaikala: kama mi Saint Esprit nilikamata minaweza kusimama minaenda kueleza: kwa sababu si mimi tena/ si mi minasema/
F: na inakukamata na nguvu/
K: [overlapping] inakuwa ni pepo ingine sasa/
F: ni pepo: pepo:
K: oui/
F: inakukamata na nguvu?
K: ah ndiyo utaweza ku nashituka mara moya mara moya unashimama:
F: aah/
K: unakuwa nasema:
F: utatemeka:
K: ao: ao utaanza kuona bintu bingine: mais mi hapana ona/ kama twiko hapa na wee: mi naanza kuona: wee hapana ona/
F: ahah/
K: kwa sababu bo: habaone na macho: banaona na roho/
F: c'est ça/
K: ndiyo/
F: ah bon/
K: mm/
F: siku ingine nita: nitapenda: sijue kama: kama itawezikana:
K: ndiyo/
F: nitapenda kupita kule/
K: ndiyo kama unanipa siku: asema: fika siku fulani: mais sisi zaidi tunaombaka zaidi ni paka siku ya posho/
F: siku ya posho?
K: ndiyo/
F: oui oui/
K: kwanza ku ma: une heure:
F: mm/
K: mupaka mangaribi/ sasa kama unapenda asema twende: nitakuwa ku....?...
F: muko na bakubwa? ya huku?
K: ndiyo beko bakubwa/ bakubwa beko/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
3. F: And how about you, do you teach in (the movement)? (But) everyone does.
K: Every one teaches, yes.
F: If the Spirit...
K: If the Spirit overflows.
F: (The spirit) takes hold of him.
K: Yes.
F: Right?
K: Yes.
F: Then a person teaches.
K: Ah, yes.
F: Right?
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
K: Well, this is true but the Spirit takes in two respects.
F: Two respects?
K: Two respects. As far as teaching is concerned I wouldn’t say (it only happens) when the Spirit takes hold. The leaders may say alright, get up, and show how it is that the matter (you want to talk about) is in the Spirit of God.
F: Mm.
K: What is it you want to talk about so as to make the brothers think about Divine matters. And you’ll get up and begin to explain.
F: Mm.
K: But at the same time there are some in the group who have the Holy Spirit.
F: Mm.
K: At that moment the Divine Spirit manifests itself and a person begins to talk.
F: In a meeting it’s only some who get up, right?
K: Yes, because when we all are sitting down.
F: Yes.
K: The way we are sitting now and if the Holy Spirit were to get hold of me I would get up and speak because it’s no longer me, it’s not me who is talking.
F: And (the Spirit) grabs you with force.
K: [overlapping] It is another breath now.
F: It is breath, a breath.
K: Yes.
F: Which seizes you with force?
K: Ah yes, all of a sudden you are moved (lit. wake up) and get up.
F: Aah.
K: You are talking.
F: You may shake.
K: Or you may see things I do not see. The two of us could be right here and I get visions but you don’t see (them).
F: Yes.
K: Because those (who have visions) don’t see with their eyes, they see with the Spirit.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: Mm.
F: I don’t know whether this is possible but some other day I’d like...
K: Yes.
F: I’d like to visit the place (where they meet).
K: Yes, if you give me a date, telling me to come on a certain day. But the day we always pray is Saturday.
F: Saturday?
K: Yes.
F: Yes. fine.
K: It begins around one o’clock.
F: Mm.
K: (And goes on) until the evening. Now when you like us to go I will...?...
F: You have your leaders? (I mean) local leaders?
K: Yes, there are leaders.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
4. F: na: mara ingine bantu bengine bana: banakuchambula?
K: juu ya?
F: juu ya buPostolo/
K: aah/
F: maneno: mitasema kwanza: mara: mara ingine kama mi: minapita mu motokari: ah?
K: ndiyo/
F: na bantu bengine banataka kupita/ mimi mi niliisha kusikia ah: bananiangaria na ndevu yangu/ eh?
K: ndiyo/
F: asema: pitie muPostolo/
K: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
F: [laughs] bananichambula sawa/
K: ndiyo/ ndiyo bwana: unauliza muzuri sana eh?
F: eh/
K: ni kweli: na mi nasikia furaha sana ma kwa ulizo yako/ ehm: kama tunapenda mambo ya Mungu ...
F: kwanza jina yako ni: ni nini?
K: jina yangu iko Kanyemba Louis Timothée/
F: Kanyemba:
K: Louis Timothée/ sawa vile maauthenticité sasa niko Kanyemba Yava/
F: Ya: val?
K: Kanyemba Yav/
F: Yava/
K: juu ya authenticité/ ndiyo/
F: kumbe wee uko:
K: zamani mi niko Kanyemba Louis Timothée/
F: ahah/
K: ndiyo/
F: ahah/
K: Timothée iko ya kiPostolo/
F: jina yangu ni Johannes: Fabian/
K: ndiyo/
F: Fabian/
K: aksanti/
F: kumbe wee uko: eh: eh: uko: uko Lunda?
K: ndiyo miye niko Lunda/
F: ahah/
K: baba yangu iko Lunda: mama yangu iko Ndembu/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/
F: sawa yee: yee iko Ndembu/
K: ndiyo/
F: Victor/
K: ndiyo/ ni vile bwana: eeh: kama tunapenda mambo ya Mungu: kama muntu anapenda kabisa mambo ya Mungu: atakamata asema katika biblia: haweze kusikilizana na bantu ya dunia/
F: mm/
K: bintu yako utafanya yote: iko paka mubaya kwabo/
F: mm/
K: kwa sababu bantu ba dunia banaonaka sisi: sawa sawa tuko babumbafu/
F: mm/
K: maneno sisi: she hapana kwenda kutafuta banamuke ingine/ sisi: she hapana kunywa pombe/
F: ah/
K: sisi: she hapana kwenda ku mafêtes ku michezo ya bulebule: sisi hapana kwenda/ na bo banaangaria kama ile bintu njo bintu ya furaha kwabo/ sasa kama banakuangaria: wee hapana kwenda ku ile bintu muzuri sawa? sasa banaona kama uko bumbafu/
F: mm/
K: ni vile sasa kila mara vile paka banatutokana/
F: mm/
K: eeh/ na kila mara kuko bengine tena hakuna masikilizano hata kidogo/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ na sisi kama tunaona bantu habaitupende namna ile: tuko tunafurahi/ tunasema: kwa sababu tunasikiaka bale ba zamani/ eh: bale baPostolo ba zamani: na bo vile vile banakuwa banateswa vile/
F: c’est ça/
K: eh? mu jina ya Yesu/
F: c’est ça/
K: eh bon/ kama na sisi banaanza kutuchambula: ah sasa tunakuwa na nguvu: tunasema kumbe ni kwetu tunaomba Mu: Mungu/
F: mm/
K: ni vile bwana/
F: mm/
K: eh/
F: oui oui/ mi niliisha: niliisha kuona sawa kwa: kwa wantu bengine: ba: banataka kuchambula/ sawa banachambula Jamaa/
K: ndiyo/ ndiyo/ [chuckle] na kuko bengine kama banamuchambula sasa anasikia haya anaacha/
F: c’est ça/
K: eh: anaacha: anasikia haya anaacha/
F: na baPostolo ya: ya humu na ya Lubumbashi: zamani balikutana na Jamaa?
K: kukutana kuomba pamoja?
F: aah/
K: tunaachana/ hatuna na namna ya kukutana/
F: mi nilisikia kama mu mwanzo: mwanzo kabisa: eh: Jamaa ilianza wapi?
K: nkundi ya Jamaa?
F: ah/
K: ts: ile nkundi ja Jamaa: bwana siwezi kufahamu muzuri namna ilianza/ kama ilianza Lubumbashi: kama ilianza hapa ku Kolwezi kwa père Pascal:
F: hapa tu/
K: mimi sijui/
F: hapa tu:
K: Kolwezi/
F: [overlapping] ku Ruwe/ Ruwe eh? karibu/ na: na hii mon père alianza:
K: ndiyo/
F: alikuwa nani?
K: père Pascal/
F: ah ah/ Placide/
K: Placide?
F: Tempels/ unaona?
K: ndiyo/
F: eh? yee aliisha: mara ingine wee ulimuona na ndevu sawa/
K: murefu/ ah: mi niliona zaidi Placide/
F: Placide?
K: ndiyo/
F: njo huyu/ njo huyu alianza/
K: ni yeye/
F: ni yee na bababa na bamama:
K: ndiyo/
F: balianza: sasa beko na: balikuwa na difficultés/
K: mm/ yee sasa iko ku Kinshasa? nasikia vile/
F: non/ Placide alirudia eh: Belgique/
K: alirudia pale?
F: anazeka:
K: ahah/
F: eko na maladi: ana: anaik: anabakia paka:
K: aksanti/
F: mm/ en Belgique/ bon: njo hii/ mara ingine tutarudia na hii mambo/
K: ndiyo/
4. F: Does it happen that other people mock you?
K: What for?
F: For being Bapostolo.
K: Well.
F: Because, let me tell you something first. It happened when I was driving my car, right?
K: Yes.
F: And there were people who wanted to cross the road. What I heard – the saw my beards – was...
K: Yes.
F: Get going, you Mupostolo.
K: Yes. Yes.
F: [laughs] That’s how they were making fun of me.
K: Yes. Yes, bwana, you are asking very good questions, you understand?
F: Yes.
K: It’s the truth. And your questions make me very happy. You see,[6] when we love God’s affairs...
F: First, what is your (full) name?
K: My name is Kanyemba Louis Timothée.
F: Kanyemba.
K: Louis Timothée. Nowadays, with this business of authenticity I am Kanyemba Yava.
F: Ya: val?
K: Kanyemba Yava.
F: Yava.
K: Because of authenticity, yes.
F: So you are...
K: I used to be Kanyemba Louis Timothée.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: Timothée (is the name I got when I joined) the Bapostolo.
F: My name is Johannes Fabian.
K: Yes.
F: Fabian.
K: Thank you.[7]
F: So, are you Lunda?
K: Yes, I am Lunda.
F: I see.
K: My father is Lunda, my mother Ndembu.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes.
F: Like him, he is Ndembu.
K: Yes.
F: Victor.
K: Yes. The way it is, bwana, if we like the affairs of God, if a person really cares for the affairs of God he will get what it says in the Bible: You cannot get along with the people of the world.
F: Mm.
K: Whatever you may do it will be bad in their eyes.
F: Mm.
K: Because the people of this world look at us as if we were stupid.
F: Mm.
K: Because we don’t chase after other women, we don’t drink beer.
F: Yes.
K: We don’t go around to parties and worthless dances, we don’t go there while they consider these things as something they enjoy. Now, when they notice that you don’t go around enjoying such nice things they consider you and idiot.
F: Mm.
K: That way they usually just avoid us.[8]
F: Mm.
K: Yes, there are always some with whom we don’t get along at all.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. And when we see that people don’t like us in this way we rejoice. We say, this is because we have been listening to the old ones, the Apostles of long ago, they also suffered like this.
F: That’s it.
K: Right? In the name of Jesus.
F: Right.
K: Well then, when people begin to make fun of us that is the moment when we get strong and tell ourselves we are at home when we pray to God.
F: Mm.
K: That’s how it is, bwana.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Yes, yes. It’s just that I observed some people who want to mock (the Bapostolo) as they mock the Jamaa.
K: Yes, yes. [chuckle] But then, there are some who may be ashamed when they are made fun of and leave (the group).
F: That’s it.
K: Yes, he leaves. He feels shame and leaves.
F: I the past, did the local Bapostolo or those in Lubumbashi meet with the Jamaa?
K: (You mean) meet to pray together?
F: Yes.
K: We keep apart. No way we can meet.
F: I heard that this happened at the very beginning. By the way, where did the Jamaa originate?
K: The Jamaa movement?
F: Yes.
K: Well, I don’t know about the Jamaa movement, bwana, I just don’t know exactly how it started. Whether it began in Lubumbashi or here in Kolwezi with Father Pascal.
F: Right here.
K: I don’t know.
F: It was right here.
K: Kolwezi.
F: [overlapping] In Ruwe. In Ruwe, right? Close (to Kolwezi). And the missionary who started it.
K: Yes.
F: Who was he?
K: Father Pascal.
F: No, no. Placide.
K: Placide?
F: Tempels. You see?
K: Yes.
F: Right? He was the one. Perhaps you have seen him with his beard like this.
K: His long beard. Well, I always saw Placide.[9]
F: Placide?
K: Yes.
F: He was the one. He was the founder.
K: He was the one.
F: It was him, together with the bababa and bamama (as the members were called).
K: Yes.
F: They started (the movement) but nowadays they have been in trouble.
K: Mm. Is he now in Kinshasa? That’s what I heard.
F: No. Placide went back to Belgium.
K: That’s where he went?
F: He is old now.
K: I see.
F: He is ill and he stays.
K: Thank you.
F: Mm, in Belgium. Alright, that’s that, perhaps we came back to this subject some other time.
F: Yes.
6. F: mais alafu zaidi tuta: tunataka kusumbulia juu ya: ya peinture yako/
K: ndiyo/
F: na: pa kurudia ku mwanzo: sawa: ulizaliwa wapi?
K: mimi nilizaliwa Luena/
F: Luena?
K: ndiyo/
F: ku kule charbonnage?
K: ndiyo/
F: baba yako alikuwa kutumika kule?
K: [overlapping] baba yangu alikuwa kutumika ku KDL/
F: ku KDL?
K: ndiyo/
F: eyo/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/ iko muzima?
K: iko muzima mpaka sasa/
F: mama: mama:
K: na mama pamoya iko muzima/ sasa alipata pension/ iko na mwezi mbili ya pension yake: anarudia ku mugini/
F: anarudia ku mugini?
K: ndiyo/
F: wapi: mu: Kapanga?
K: hapana/ eko Kasazi/
F: Kasazi?
K: Kasazi ndiyo/
F: aah: niliisha kutembea kule/
K: ndiyo/ karibu...?...
F: [overlapping]Kasaji: Kasaji Gare:
K: ndiyo/
F: Kasaji Mission:.
K: ndiyo/
F: ahah/
K: ndiyo/
F: alirudia ku mugini/
K: ndiyo/
F: na wee: na: uli: ulizaliwa mwaka gani?
K: mi nilizaliwa mu mille neuf cent trente-sept/
F: sawa mi: nduku/ [laughs]
K: [laughs]
F: trente-sept?
K: trente-sept ndiyo/
F: eh?
K: aah/
F: sawa mi/
K: ni kweli/
6. F: But what we really want to do is talk about your painting.
K: Yes.
F: And to get back to the beginning – where were you born?
K: I was born in Luena.
F: Luena?
K: There, at the coal mine?
L: Yes.
K: Did your father work there?
K: [overlapping] My father worked for the KDL (railway company).
F: For the KDL?
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Mm. Is he alive?
K: Yes, he is still alive.
F: (And) your mother?
K: My mother, too, is still alive. (Father) is now retired. He was pensioned two months ago and went back to the village.
F: He went back to the village?
K: Yes.
F: Where? To Kapanga?
K: No, he lives in Kasazi.
F: Kasazi?
K: Kasazi, yes.
F: I see, I have been there.
K: Yes. Close to ...?...
F: [overlapping] Kasaji. (There is) a Kasaji Gare (railway station).
K: Yes.
F: (And) a Kasaji Mission.
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: So he went back to his village.
K: Yes.
F: And what was the year you were born?
K: I was born in 1937.
F: Same as I – (we are) brothers. [laughs]
K: [laughs]
F: Thirty-seven?
K: Thirty-seven, yes.
F: Is that so?
K: Ah.
F: Same as me.
K: True.
7. F: na: bon/ kiisha ulizaliwa Luena: na ulifwata masomo kule?
K: mimi sikufwata masomo kule hapana: masomo nilikuwa kwanza ku Lubumbashi/
F: ku Lubumbashi/
K: Lubumbashi: njo nilikwenda kwanza masomo: alafu sikuendelesha zaidi hapana/
F: uli: uli: ulimaliza:
K: nilimaliza paka masomo ya tano: basi niliisha/
F: tano:
K: tano/
F: tano: secondaire?
K: hapana: mwanzo tu: primaire/
F: primaire?
K: ndiyo/ kwa sababu nilikuwa mupuzi sana: nilipenda michezo sana ku utoto/
F: aah/
K: ndiyo [laughs]/
F: kumbe: ulitoka/
K: na ndiyo nilitoka/ ndiyo/
F: ulitoka: et: kufanya nini?
K: saa nilitoka: nilikuwa napenda paka mambo ya kucheza/
F: kucheza:
K: kucheza eh:
F: kucheza: danse? sawa:
K: hapana: ndiyo: kucheza danse: ile ya: makupika mabitarres: maJéKoKé :
F: ah/
K: eheh/ na michezo ingine ingine twiko na batoto ni ile nilikuwa nafuraha sana juu ya michezo/
F: ah/
K: nilikuwa napenda kufanya mankundi: mankundi: tuko tunafanya michezo ya maJéKoKé: kucheza kila mara ni vile/
F: mi: michezo ya nini: ya?
K: JéKoKé/
F: JéKoKé?
K: JéKoKé ndiyo/
F: njo nini?
K: ni muchezo moya: ilitokeaka paka kipande ya: ya Rhodésie: ile wakati ...?... banasema Rhodésie/ kipande ya Zambia/
F: JéKoKé?
K: ndiyo/ ni muchezo beko banacheza bantu: batoto kidogo: musululu/ banabeba bidari/ beko banakwenda: banacheza: banacheza: banarudia ku mukongo: banajifurahisha paka vile/
F: ahah/
K: ndiyo/
F: mais hii jina yake: njo nini? ni Swahili?
K: ile jina mimi sijui kama ni Swahili: kama ni Anglais: mimi mi sijui hapana/
F: sema: sema mara ingine/
K: jeux coquets/
F: jeux?
K: jeux coquets/
F: coquets/
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: mi hapana kusikia/
K: bado kusikia?
F: non/
K: kama unakwenda Lubumbashi: unauliza bantu ya zamani: batajua ile muchezo/
F: aah/
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: bon: mulifanya siku yote: siko yo: weee:
K: tulifanya siku yote: siku yote/
7. F: Alright then. You were born in Luena and is this were you went to school?
K: I didn’t go to school there. School I started in Lubumbashi.
F: In Lubumbashi.
K: Lubumbashi, that’s were I went to school but I didn’t get very far.
F: You finished...
K: I only finished fifth grade, that was it.
F: Fifth grade.
K: Fifth grade.
F: (You mean) fifth grade secondary school?
K: No, just primary school.
F: Primary school?
K: Yes. Because I was a real good-for-nothing. I liked like to play a lot when I was a youngster.
F: I see.
K: Yes. [laughs]
F: So you dropped out (of school).
K: Yes I dropped out, yes.
F: You dropped out to do what?
K: When I dropped out all I liked to do was kucheza.
F: Kucheza.
K: Kucheza, yes.
F: Kucheza, meaning to dance?[10]
K: No. Yes, there was dancing (but also) playing the guitar, doing comedy,  (we called this) JéKoKé.[11]
F: Ah.
K: Yes. And there were all sorts of  children’s games and plays I really enjoyed.
F: Ah.
K: I liked to get groups together and we performed JéKoKé, playing all the time, that’s how it was.
F: What were the plays about?
K: (They were) JéKoKé
F: JéKoKé?
K: JéKoKé, yes.
F: What is this?
K: It was a dance that came from Rhodesia, what was then called Rhodesia, from Zambia.
F: JéKoKé?
K: Yes, it was a dance people used to perform. Small children, carrying guitars would form a line moving forward, playing, and the move back again. They just had fun doing this.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: But the name of this (dance). What is it, Swahili?
K: About this name, I don’t know whether it is Swahili or English, I just don’t know.
F: Say it again.
K: Jeux coquets[12].
F: Jeux?
K: Jeux coquets.
F: Coquets.
K: Yes. [chuckle]
F: I don’t get it.
K: You still don’t get it?
F: No.
K: When you go to Lubumbashi just ask the old-timers, they will know of this dance.
F: I see.
K: Yes. [chuckle]
F: Alright, so you were doing this all the time.
K: We did this all the time.
8. F: ulikomea kule: Lubumbashi?
K: ndiyo nilikomea ku Lubumbashi/
F: bon/ kiisha: bon/ uli:
K: eh: ni kusema: ile wakati minashinda masomo: minashinda masomo mu mille neuf cent cinquante: deux/
F: mm/
K: mille neuf cent cinquante deux: minashinda masomo/ sasa: nilikimbia karibu na baba/
F: mm/
K: ahah/ sasa nilikwenda kule ku: ku macommunes: mulikuwa baba yangu/ mudogo/ nduku yake ya baba/
F: mm/
K: na sasa mi nilianza kubakia kule/
F: ku commune?
K: ndiyo ku commune ile ya ku: chose: ku: ville ya Lubumbashi/
F: Kamalondo?
K: hapana/ ville inyewe...
F: ah mu ville?
K: mu ville ya Lubumbashi ndiyo/ sasa yee alianza kubakia kule alikuwa kutumika kazi ya boy: kwa muzungu moya banakuwa banasema sawa Pille Marcel/
F: Pille Marcel/
K: ndiyo/ ule:
F: Pille?
K: Pille Marcel/
F: ahah/
K: ya pale/ ule Pille Marcel: yee alikuwa ni professeur ku académie/
F: Pillen?
K: Pille Marcel/
F: Pille Marcel?
K: ndiyo/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/ yee alikuwa ni professeur kule ku académie: na kiisha mi nilikuwa mutoto: alafu naliisha kukalamuka kidogo/
F: na ulifanya: wee ulitumika kazi yake ya: ya boy?
K: hapana/ baba yangu alitumika paka kazi ya boy/
F: [overlapping] aah: c'est ça/
K: sasa mi: pale minashinda masomo: baba yangu alinifukusha asema: mi hapana kupenda kuona wee: wee unapenda paka kucheza michezo: sasa mi sipendi we hapana/
F: hapana/
K: bon/ [chuckle] sasa: alinifukuza: ile saa minakimbia: minakwenda kule mu ville: eh? mulikuwa baba mudogo: nduku yake ya baba/
F: eh/
K: sasa alikuwa anafanya kazi kwa ule muzungu Pille Marcel/
F: mm/
K: bon: na ule muzungu Pille Marcel: yee alikuwa ni peintre/
F: ahah/
K: iko anatumika: kila mara iko anapenta: iko anapenta/ kama iko anapenta: mi niko nakuwa kuangaria/
F: mm/
K: yee iko napenta: mi niko nakuwa kuangaria kila mara/ weee: sasa na mi nilianza kupima/ kupenta/ na yee alipenda sana kama anaona mi niko napima kupenta vile/ na alianza kuangaria asema bon: muzuri: utendelee/ sasa kiisha wee: niliangaria kama ni bintu ya bule/ minaacha/ sikuendelesha tena hapana/ tunabakia weee:
F: wee ali: yee alikuonyesha: namna ya kupenta?
K: yee alikuwa ananionyesha asema angaria: kama yee iko anapenta: anakamata tableau: [demonstrates this, picking up a painting of his own]
F: penta gani? penta na sawa?
K: sawa hivi ndiyo/
F: mm/
K: minawaza kama ni yeye: ni yeye wa kwanza/ ku Lubumbashi/ minawaza kama ni yeye wa kwanza Pille: kama ni Romain-Desfossés wa kwanza mi sijui muzuri pale:
F: mm/
K: wakati yao/ ndiyo/ na ni kweli mi niliikala pale vile vile kama na yee nakuwa kuangaria namna iko natumika/
F: mm/
K: bon/ sasa na mi: minakwenda ku mpembeni: minapima: na mi minaanza kufanya yangu kidogo kidogo/ siku ingine nilifanya moya kidogo: anakuwa anaangaria anasema: iko muzuri: kama unaendelesha itakuwa muzuri/ minasema muzuri/ nilifanyaka ilikuwa paka ndeke/
F: ndeke/
K: ilikuwa paka ndeke ndiyo/ minadessiner ndeke: napenta: napenta: na ile penti ya gouache/ alikuwa penti ya mayi hapana/ minasema bon kama minaendelesha: iko muzuri/ bon/ mi nilipenta/ sasa kidogo niliendelea na michezo yangu/
F: mm/
8. F: So that’s where you grew up, in Lubumbashi?
K: Yes, I grew up in Lubumbashi.
F: Alright. And then you...
K: Then came the time when I failed school, that was in 1952.
F: Mm.
K: In 1952 I failed school. Then I took refuge with a relative on my father’s side.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. That is when I went to (stay) in the townships where I younger brother of my father lived.
F: Mm.
K: From then on I lived there.
F: In a commune?
K: Yes in a commune in the town of Lubumbashi.
F: In Kamalondo?
K: No, in town.
F: Ah, in town.[13]
K: In the town of Lubumbashi proper, yes. Now he lived there and worked as a domestic servant for a European called Pille Marcel.
F: Pille Marcel.
K: Yes, that’s the one.
F: Pille?
K: Pille Marcel.
F: I see.
K: (He had his house) there. This Pille Marcel was a professor at the Academy (of Fine Arts).
F: Pillen?
K: Pille Marcel.
F: Pille Marcel?[14]
K: Yes.
F: Alright then.
K: Yes. He was a professor at the Academy. Then – I was a youngster but I was clever for my age (lit. I was awake).
F: So what you did was work as a house boy?
K: No. My uncle was the one who worked as a boy.
F: [overlapping] I see, that’s how it was.
K: Now, when I failed in school my father threw me out. I don’t like to see you around, he said. All you like is to play (that is why) I don’t love you.
F: No.
K: Alright. [chuckle] So he threw me out and that was when I ran away and went (to live) in town, you understand? To my uncle’s place, my father’s brother.
F: Yes.
K: At that time he worked for this European by name of Pille Marcel.[15]
F: Mm.
K: Fine. And this European Pille Marcel was a painter.
F: I see.
K: He worked and painted all the time and when he painted I would watch (him).
F: Mm.
K: Every time he painted I would watch him. This went on for some time and then I began to try painting. He really liked it when he saw me trying to paint. He began to observe (me). Fine, he said, this is good, you should go on with it. But then, after a while, I saw that is was junk. I gave up, I (because) made no progress. We left it at that for a long time.
F: Did he show you how to paint?
K: He would show me, telling me to take a look. When he painted he picked up a painting... [demonstrates this, picking up a painting of his own]
F: What kind of painting (was this), like this?
K: Like this, yes.
F: Mm.
K: I believe he was the first one in Lubumbashi. I think Pille was the one who came first or was it Romain-Desfossés? I am not sure about that.
F: Mm.
K: Around their time. Yes. Fact is, that I stayed there and he would observe how I worked.
F: Mm.
K: Alright. I went to a corner (of the room), gave it a try, and began to paint my own (pictures), little by little. One day, when I had finished a small (painting) he came, looked at it, and said this is good. If you see to it that you improve (your work) will be good. Fine, I said, and all I did was painting birds.
F: Birds.
K: Nothing but birds, yes. I would sketch a bird and then paint it with gouache, not just water colors. Fine, I told myself, if I improve it will be good, and I painted. But soon I took up my amusements again.
F: Mm.
9. K: naacha ile yote tena/ sasa: maneno akili ilikuwa ya butoto/ sasa minakuwa kufika mu mille neuf cent cinquante six/ njo minapata mukubwa moya: jina yake Mwila André/
F: Mwila André?
K: Mwila André ndiyo/ sasa ule Mwila André: alikwenda kupatana na Kaballa/
F: Kaballa?
K: Kaballa ni muntu alifunda kwa Romain-Desfossés/
F: c’est ça/
K: bon/ sasa Mwila André: balisikilizanaka na Kaballa/ alafu kiisha kusikilizana na Kabala: Kaballa hakumuonyesha namna ya kupenta penti hapana/ sasa Kaballa alikwenda kuonyesha Kabinda/
F: Kabinda?
K: aah: Kabinda Victor/
F: maneno gani alikatala ku: kuonyesha?
K: sijui/ yeye alinielezea mimi asema: ule alikatala kuonyesha mi penti/
F: ahah/
K: mi sijui kama: maneno kazi ya artiste bwana mbele ilikuwa: ilikuwa muzuri: hapana sawa sasa/ hapana sawa sasa hapana/ mbele ilikuwa muzuri kabisa/
F: kupita sasa?
K: oh: sasa ni mubaya/ sasa iko mubaya bwana/ maneno mi niko naona iko haya sasa kutembea na matableaux kwenda kuweka na mafasi ya mu ville sawa vile: kuexposer: iko haya/
F: Mm.
K: mais zamani hapana vile hapana/ zamani: itakuwa paka fasi moya muzungu alisema: utanitendea kintu kifulani kifulani/ na kila muzungu alipashwa kujua nyumba ya artiste fulani iko fasi fulani/
F: mm/
K: bon: kama hapana vile: kulikuwa paka maexpositions bashi/
F: mm/
K: na tutakuwa tu na fasi moya unaexposer kule: na utaona bazungu mingi batakuwa: na balikuwa banauza tena: utapenda vile/
F: mm/
K: ile tableaux sawa vile: minaweza kuuzisha quarante cinquante/
F: hii wakati?
K: ile wakati ya mbele: mais lakini sasa hakuna namna/
F: mm/
K: sasa hakuna namna bwana/ unaweka ile bei ile hakuna ya kuangaria hata kidogo/
F: mm/
K: ni vile sasa kama tunaangaria asema sasa kumbe haina vie tu muzuri sawa mbele/
F: mm/
9. K: And I quit (painting) altogether because I was still childish. Coming to 1956, I met an older person, his name was Mwila André.
F: Mwila André?
K: Mwila André, yes. Now, this Mwila André became friendly with Kaballa.[16]
F: Kaballa?
K: Kaballa was trained by Romain-Desfossés.
F: That’s right.
K: Alright. Mwila André and Kaballa got along well. However, in spite of that, Kaballa did not show Mwila how to paint but Kabinda.
F: Kabinda?
K: Yes. Kabinda Victor.
F: Why did (Kaballa) refuse to show (Mwila how to paint)?
K: I don’t know. Mwila himself told me that Kaballa refused to show him how to paint.
F: I see.
K: I don’t know why. (What you have to know) bwana is that in the past the work of an artist was good, not as it is now. Not as it is nowadays. In the past it was very good (work).
F: Better than today?
K: Oh, it’s bad nowadays. Nowadays it is bad, bwana. As I see it, today it is embarrassing to walk around with your paintings (looking) to get them exhibited in some place or other in town. It is shameful.
F: Mm.
K: Whereas in the past, there would be one place where a European commissioned you to do this and that. And all the Europeans knew where each artist lived.
F: Mm.
K: Short of that, there were the expositions, and that was it.
F: Mm.
K: And we would have one place where you could exhibit (your work), you would see many Europeans coming in and buying, and you would be glad about that.
F: Mm.
K: I could sell forty, fifty paintings of this kind here.
F: At that time?
K: At that time in the past, whereas nowadays this is impossible.
F: Mm.
K: Today this is impossible, bwana. If you put (a fair) price on it no one will give it even a quick look.
F: Mm.
K: That is why today we find that life is no longer as good as it used to be.
F: Mm.
10. K: ni vile sasa: ah: Mwila: alikwenda kwa: eeh: Kaballa alifundiza: Kabinda Victor/
F: Kabinda Victor/
K: bon/ sasa Mwila alikuwa rafiki yangu mi kabisa kabisa/ bon: sasa: tunafanya nini? tunasumbulia bon: Mwila [interrupts himself]: mi kama minafanya kidogo hivi: sasa bamingi banaanza kucheka: asema hapana sawa penta: hapana sawa/ banacheka: minasikia haya minatupa/ mi: asema iko mybaya/ kama minatumika kidogo minakwenda ku ville ku bazungu banacheka/ bon: mina: minatupa/
F: na peinture gani: ulifa: hii wakati ulifanya peinture gani?
K: nilikuwa nafanya paka ile peinture: paka sawa hii peinture yangu ya mafuta tube/
F: mm/
K: eh/ bon:
F: mafuta tube/
K: ndiyo/ sasa: eh: Mwila alikwenda kusumbulia na: na Kabinda/ maneno sasa ile saa ile: Kabinda: banaanza kumufundiza pole pole kuko Kaballa/
F: mm/
K: bon/ Kaballa: balifundaka kwa Romain-Desfossés: Kaballa: Pilipili: Mwenze: Bela/
F: mm/
K: Bela yee anatumikaka na bilole/
F: oui oui/
K: yee hapana tumika na pinceau/
F: non/
K: yee hapana natumika na kilole/
F: mm/
K: na mi nilimuonaka mara noya hivi/ bon/ sasa pale Mwila anaisha kuyua: sasa tulifanya atelier yetu she mbili napenta/
F: ah bon/
K: bon/ sasa tunaanza kufanya répétition: répétition: répétition/ sasa Mwila: anaanza kutumika muzuri kupita: Kabinda/
F: kupita Kabinda/
K: ndiyo/ et puis ni mi vile vile: minaanza kutumika muzuri kupita: Kabinda/
F: Kabinda/
K: sasa na kila mara bamingi balikuwa banaona kama banaangaria hii style yetu banasema asema wee mulifunda kwa Romain-Desfossés?
F: ah/
K: saa ingine tunaitika: ndiyo tulifunda kwa Romain­-Desfossés/ lakini sisi hatukufunda kwa Romain­-Desfossés hapana/
F: hapana/
K: mimi nili: nili: nilionaka kidogo na Pille Marcel/
F: mm/
K: na eh: niliona namna iko anatumika: ni vile na mi nilienda kutumika kiloko kiloko/
F: mm/
K: sasa sikuendelesha/
F: c’est ça/
K: ah/ sasa Mwila: yee anakwenda tena tunafanya mayele: Mwila anakwenda kusumbulia na: na Kabinda/ maneno Kabinda balimufundisha ku Kaballa/
F: mm/
K: bon: sasa pale tunajua kiloko kiloko/ basi na sisi tunaanza kuendelea paka vile/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: mulikuwa na atelier mu Lubumbashi?
K: ndiyo tulikuwa na atelier mu Lubumbashi: mu Kenia/ mu commune Kenia/
F: ahah/ na uli: uliuzisha: muliuzisha mapeintures yako?
K: mingi: mingi: mingi/
F: kwa bazungu?
K: mingi/ kama unakwenda...
F: zaidi kwa bazungu?
K: oh: kama unakwenda kipande sawasawa mu Belgique: unakwenda mu Amerique: eh: bazungu banauza mingi: Amerique: Belgique/
F: hata peintures yako? ilitembea sawa?
K: kama unakwenda ile fasi unakuta tableaux yote banaandika Kanyemba: iko yangu/
F: eyo/
10. K: So what happened was that Mwila went to – or rather Kaballa taught Kabinda Victor.
F: Kabinda Victor.
K: Alright. Now, Mwila and I were really close friends. What were we going to do? We talked about it. Alright, Mwila [interrupts himself]. Whenever I painted some in this manner, many would start laughing. That doesn’t look like painting at all. They laughed. I felt ashamed and threw it away, telling myself this is bad. If I paint a few pictures and go to town to (offer them to) Europeans they laugh. So I gave it up.
F: What kind of painting did you do at that time?
K: Just this kind of painting, like my oil paintings here.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. Alright...
F: (Using) oil paint.
K: Yes. Then Mwila went to talk with Kabinda because at that time Kaballa began to teach him.
F: Mm.
K: Alright. Kaballa belonged to those who studied with Romain-Desfossés: Kaballa, Pilipili, Mwenze, Bela.
F: Mm.
K: Bela was the one who painted with his fingers.
F: Yes, yes.
K: He did not use a brush.
F: No.
K: He did not work with a finger[17].
F: Mm.
K: Once I observed him doing that. Alright. Now, when Mwila knew (enough) the two of us set up our atelier and painted.
F: I see.
K: Right. What we did first was to practice, practice, practice. The time came when Mwila worked better than Kabinda.
F: Better than Kabinda.
K: Yes. And then it was the same with me, I became better than Kabinda.
F: Kabinda.
K: Many would watch us and when they looked at our style they would ask, did you study with Romain-Desfossés?
F: Ah.
K: Sometimes we said yes, we studied with Romain-Desfossés. But we did not study with Romain-Desfossés.
F: You didn’t.
K: I had learned a little from watching Pille Marcel.
F: Mm.
K: I observed how he worked and slowly I began to paint that way.
F: Mm.
K: (But) I made no progress.
F: Right.
K: Well, that was when we had this idea and Mwila went to talk to Kabinda because Kabinda was taught by Kaballa.
F: Mm.
K: Alright, that was when we got the knack of it, bit by bit, and we got better.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: You had an atelier in Lubumbashi?
K: We had an atelier in Lubumbashi, in Kenia, in Kenia township.
F: I see. And you sold your paintings?
K: Many, a lot.
F: To Europeans?
K: Many. If you were to go...
F: Above all to Europeans?
K: Oh, if you were to visit certain regions, like in Belgium and America, well, Europeans bought a lot, in America and Belgium.
F: Paintings of yours? Did they go as far as that?
K: If you go to those places you come upon paintings, all those that are signed Kanyemba are mine.
F: I see.
11. K: ndiyo/ maneno tokea mille neuf cent cinquante-sept: cinquante-sept: cinquante-huit: cinquante-huit: cinquante-neuf: soixante: soixante-et-un: soixante-deux: soixante-trois: soixante-quatre: soixante-cinq: soixante-six: soixante-six: njo minaacha/
F: yote?
K: ah: minaacha sasa kupenta tena/ minakatala/ maneno minaangaria sasa: bazungu habakuwa tena na furaha zaidi ya kuuza penti: ile hapana sawa kusikitika: kila mara: sawa hii wakati ya sasa bazungu mingi bo hapana penda zaidi kuuza hapana/
F: mm/
K: na hata minatumika tableaux muzuri: lakini hatakuuza: sababu iko muzuri yee anauza/ alafu roho yabo haipende zaidi kuuza/ ni pale niliangaria vile minasema bon: kama minacontinuer tena na hii kazi: si nitapata namna muzuri ya kuishi hapana/
F: mm/
K: sasa niliacha/
F: mm/
K: mu soixante-six minaacha: soixante-sept:
F: ulifanya nini?
K: ile saa minaacha: minaanza kutumika sasa kazi ingine/
F: kazi gani?
K: minfanya kazi ya chauffeur/
F: ya chauffeur?
K: ya chauffeur ndiyo/
F: mu société ao?
K: nilikuwa mu société: ya CIMITEF/
F: ahah/
K: eh/ minatumika kule kidogo kidogo: lakini si nilifanya mwaka moya/ ile wakati ingine mbele ya saa pale niliacha niliikala bule/
F: eeh/
K: eeh/ sasa pale minafika mu: ...?...CIMITEF: [pauses, looks at a document]
F: ah una: unaona na carte yake ya:
K: ya CIMITEF?
F: non non non non/
K: [overlapping] ...?...na date ku niliengager/
F: ...na hii buku yako ya kazi/
K: ndiyo nitataka angaria wakati gani nilijiengager kule: ku CIMITEF/ ilikuwa ni [pauses, searching in the document]
F: acha: kama ilikuwa soixante: soixante-six ao ao soixante:
K: hapana/ nilijiengager le 15.10.71/
F: septante-et-un?
K: septante-et-un ndiyo/ sasa ile wakati ...
F: ...mais: kutoka soixante-cinq: kufika septante-et-un: uli: ulifanya nini?
K: ile wakati nilianza kutembea bule/
F: bule?
K: niko nakwenda ku Za....
F: ...chômeur?
K: niko nakwenda ku Zambia:
F: mm/
K: kwenda kutembea ku Zambia: narudia: [chuckle]
F: [chuckle]
K: minakwenda ku Zambia: narudia: paka kutembea bule/
F: uko na wanduku ku Zambia?
K: ndiyo niko na wanduku/
F: baNdembu?
K: ndiyo/ oh: kule iko mingi/
F: hii waka: hii wakati: nani: hii fasi mukubwa moya: ya: ya zaidi ya Ndembu mu Zambia: njo nini?
K: mu?
F: paka karibu/
K: huyu iko mu Lubumbashi?
F: non non: karibu: karibu ya Kolwezi/ kama una: unaingia na: na: na Zambia/
K: kwa kuingia mu Zambia?
F: oui/
K: sultani?
F: oui/
K: Kanyama/
F: non/ ingine/
K: eeeh: Ikelenge/
F: non/ ah ben: hana maneno/ maneno she tunakuwa na rafiki na yee ali: ali: anakuwa sawa shee alikuwa ethnologue: eh?
K: alikuwa géologue?
F: ethnologue/ ah: ethnologie/ kufunda paka ma ...
K: marugha/
F: malugha: matabia:
K: matabia ya bantu/ aah/
F: na yee alitumika zaidi kule/ aliisha kute: kute: kuandika bitabu mingi:
K: ndiyo/
F: juu ya baNdembu/ mm?
K: ndiyo: ndiyo: ndiyo/ ahah/
F: bon: kiisha hii miaka:
K: [overlapping] kiisha sasa minafika ku Ci ...?...
F: miaka: tano?
K: ndiyo/
F: ulitembea?
K: nilitembea bule pa kucheza/ kutembea bule/
F: pasipo: pasipo kufanya: peinture/
K: hapana/ peinture hapana/ mais lakini nilikuwa na kazi kidogo nilikuwa nafansia kusaidia/
F: mm/
K: sikutembea bule kusema kutembea bule bule hapana/
F: non/ kazi gani?
K: nilikuwa na kazi kidogo kidogo niko nafanya mi: nilikuwa kwenda kule kuuza kule nauza masaa: eh: ku Zambia: nauza mabruze ya banamuke: nauza bilato:/
F: aah ndiyo/
K: minakuya huku minauzisha/
F: aah bon/
K: minauza narudia tena ...
F: [overlapping]...kumbe ulifanya sawa commerce/
K: ndiyo/ nilifanya sawa commerce/
F: mm/
K: minauza: nauzisha: nauza: nauzisha/
F: mm/
K: na ni vile sasa minaangaria tena maikalo ya sasa: minakumbuka mais: ts: ile kazi yangu minakumbuka kama minabakia mingi: itapotesha/
F: mm/
K: sasa sitajua kintu kimoya ndani ya penti hapana/ mais minapenda sana kutumika penti/ lakini kintu kimoya: utaweza kutumika penti: makumi mbili: makumi tatu/ sawa wakati ya sasa: pinceau iko bei/ pinceaux: muko na trois Zaire cinquante: quatre Zaire: cinq Zaire/
F: mm/
K: ile penti: iko bei vile vile/ iko na cinquante-cinq: deux Zaire: un Zaire/ ile penti: kwa kufanya/
F: ya tube moya?
K: ya tube moya ndiyo/ sasa wee utatoscha Makuta: unauza ile bintu unatumika lakini sasa ile bintu angaria sawa sawa hii tableaux hivi/
F: mm/
K: nitaweza kuambia asema bwana: unipatie quatre Zaire cinquante: ao unipatie cinq Zaire/
F: mm/
K: mais lakini kazi minafanya iko kazi munene sana: ya kuenea trente quarante/
F: ndiyo/
 K: sasa ni ile kintu tutarudia ku mukongo namna ya kusema tuendeleshe: tunashindwa/
F: mm/
11. K: Yes. That was in 1957, 57, 58, 58, 59, 61. 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, that was when I stopped.
F: Altogether?
K: Yes, I stopped painting. I refused to go on. Because now I saw that the Europeans no longer really enjoyed buying paintings. No, there always was a kind of sadness. It was like today when many Europeans no longer really take a pleasure in buying (paintings).
F: Mm.
K: Even though I put work into making beautiful paintings because a person buys what he considers beautiful, but they still woudn’t sell. People simply were not set on buying. That was when I took another look, telling myself, if I go on with this kind of work, I won’t make a reasonable living.
F: Mm.
K: So then I gave it up.
F: Mm.
K: In sixty-six, sixty-seven, I stopped.
F: What did you do then?
K: When I stopped painting I began doing other work.
F: What kind of work?
K: I worked as a driver.
F: As a driver?
K: As a driver, yes.
F: In a company, or?
K: I was at company, CIMITEF.
F: I see.
K: Yes. I worked there for a little while, less than a year. Before that, when I had stopped (painting), I was unemployed.
F: Yes.
K: Yes. So when I got to ....?.... CIMITEF ... [pauses, looks at document]
F: Ah, you are looking for the card of....
K: Of CIMITEF?
F: No, no, (that’s not what I mean).
K: [overlapping] (I’m looking for) the date when I was hired.
F: (I meant) your employment book.
K: Yes, I want to seel when I took the job there at CIMITEF. It was... [pauses, searching the document]
F: Never mind, it was in the sixties, sixty-six or sixty...
K: No. I signed up on October 15, 1971.
F: Seventy-one?
K: Seventy-one, yes. Now, at that time...
F: But what did you do between sixty-five and seventy-one?
K: During that time I traveled around without a job.
F: Without a job?
K: I went to Za....
F: Unemployed?
K: I went to Zambia.
F: Mm.
K: I traveled in Zambia, I came back [chuckle]
F: [chuckle]
K: I went to Zambia, I came back, just traveling around.
F: Do you have relatives in Zambia?
K: Yes, I have relatives there.
F: (Are they) Ndembu?
K: Yes, there are many over there.
F: At that time, what was, how shall I say, the capital of the Ndembu in Zambia?
K: Where?
F: It is quite close (to where we are).
K: Here in Lubumbashi?
F: No, no, close to Kolwezi, when you enter Zambia.
K: When you enter Zambia?
F: Yes.
K: (You’re asking for) the chief?
F: Yes.
K: Kanyama.
F: No, another one.
K: Let’s see, Ikelenge.
F: No. Ah well, never mind. (I’m asking) because we have a friend, he used to be an ethnologist like we are, you understand?
K: He was a geologist?
F: An ethnologist. Well, doing ethnology, studying...
K: Languages.
F: Languages and customs.
K: The customs of the people, I see.
F: And he did a lot or work there and wrote many books.[18]
K: Yes.
F: About the Ndembu, you understand?
K: Yes, I see.
F: Alright, (let’s leave that) and get back to those years.
K: [overlapping] After that I got to Ci...
F: For five years?
K: Yes.
F: You travelled around?
K: I travelled around just to amuse myself. Just travelling.
F: Without painting.
K: No, no painting. However I had a little job I did to help me through.
F: Mm.
K: Actually, I did not just travel around without doing anything.
F: No. What kind of job?
K: I had this little job I did, which was to go there and buy stuff, right? I bought watches in Zambia, women’s blouses, shoes.
F: Ah, yes.
K: I came back here and sold them.
F: Ah, alright.
K: I bought and came back again...
F: [overlapping] In other words, you were trading.
K: Yes, I was trading.
F: Mm.
K: I bought and sold, I bought and sold.
F: Mm.
K: But then I came to a point where I realized if go on with this kind of work for a long time, I’m going to lose it.
F: Mm.
K: I won’t know a thing anymore about painting. But I really loved to work as a painter. (You have to understand) you can do twenty, thirty paintings. But nowadays a brush is expensive. Brushes cost three Zaire fifty, four Zaire, five Zaire.
F: Mm.
K: And paint is also expensive, it’s fifty-five (Makuta), two Zaire, one Zaire, the kind of paint you need for doing (paintings).
F: (The price) of one tube?
K: One tube, yes. Now, you are going to have expenses when you buy the materials you work with. But nowadays these things – look, take these paintings here.
F: Mm.
K: Bwana, I could tell you give me four Zaire fifty, or five Zaire.
F: Mm.
K: But what I am doing takes a lot of work, thirty, forty (Zaire) would be adequate.
F: Yes.
K: That is what sets us back. We may talk about moving ahead but we fail.
F: Mm.
12. K: ni sawa vile sasa minakumbuka asema hapana/ kama minaachilia iko mubaya/ sasa mitaanza mara ingine/
F: mm/
K: ni vile sasa minaanza tena ku...?... /
F: sasa ulianza paka sasa?
K: oh sasa nilia: ile saa nilitoka kazi:
F: mm/
K: njo pale nilianza/
F: septante-et-un:
K: septante...
F: ni ya mwisho ya CIMITEF?
K: minatoka mu septante-deux/
F: septante-deux?
K: ndiyo/ njo tena minaanza mara ingine/
F: na uliisha kufanya mingi sasa?
K: hapa sasa minaisha kufanya sijue kintu ya vingt/
F: ya vingt/
K: ya vingt ndiyo/
F: ahah/
K: eheh/
F: na unatumikaka paka kule ku nyumba yako?
K: minatumika paka ku nyumba yangu ndiyo/
F: uko na bibi?
K: niko na bibi na batoto: tano/
F: tano?
K: tano/
F: mm/
12. K: Then came the moment when I thought about it and told myself no, if I give up (painting) this will be bad. I am going to start again.
F: Mm.
K: So now I begin again to ...?....
F: By now (you mean) just recently?
K: Oh, when I quit working.
F: Mm.
K: That’s when I began.
F: (That was in) seventy-one.
K: Seventy....
F: When you stopped working at CIMITEF?
K: I quit in seventy-two.
F: Seventy-two?
K: Yes, that’s when I made another start.
F: Have you done much by now?
K: Right now I finished, I don’t know, something like twenty (paintings).
F: Twenty.
K: Twenty, yes.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: And you work there in your house?
K: I work in my house, yes.
F: Do you have a wife?
K: I have a wife and five children.
F: Five?
K: Five.

F: Mm.

13. K: mm/ sasa mawazo yangu: nilienda kuwaza minasema: kama minapata kazi ya chauffeur ingine: hata kama minapata kazi ya artiste fasi ingine muzuri:
F: mm/
K: nitaikala/ mais lakini: kama mi sikupata: ts: roho yangu iko inatafuta kwenda Malawi/
F: mm/ Malawi?
K: ndiyo/
F: juu ya nini?
K: kwenda kubakia kule/ maneno kule minawaza kama minapenta: mi nitaendelea sawa zamani/
F: unawaza?
K: ndiyo: ni vile minawaza/ ni pale minakuelezea ile saa tunonana minasema: sijui siku ya kazi tano ...
F: ...batakupata kule?
K: présent?
F: batakupata? enfin: bata: kama unafika kule: bata: bataitika?
K: mi kufika Malawi?
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: haina na nguvu ya: ya kuingia kule?
K: ah: itakuwa nguvu namna gani? mi kabila yangu: iko humu: kabila yangu iko mu Zambia/
F: mu Zambia/ mais Malawi: aaah:
K: sasa kama minafika mu Zambia: si minakuwa Zambien? sasa Zambia na Malawi si kinasikilizana?
F: aah/
K: eh/
F: eh/
K: maneno kule ku Malawi: Malawi na Zambia: kati kati yabo minawaza kuko masikilizano/
F: unasemaka luga ya: ya Malawi?
K: hapana/
F: hapana/
K: mitafunda/
F: utafunda/
K: mitafunda ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: unasemaka luga ngapi?
K: sawa sawa lugha ya kiBemba minaweza: kama minakwenda Malawi mitasema kiBemba: batasikia/
F: ah bon/
K: eheh/
F: utasema lugha: lugha ngapi?
K: kule ku Zambia?
F: non sasa/ lugha ngapi?
K: hapa sasa niko nasema Ndembu: niko nasema: Lunda: Tshokwe: na: kiLuba ya Katanga: Kisanga: eh: Kiluba ya Kasai: eh:
F: Kiswahili/
K: Kiswahili/
F: Français/
K: Français kidoko: hapana zaidi:
F: ...?...
K: kwa sababu nilifanya masomo tano bule/
F: ah/ njo kintu ya nguvu ya kusikilizana na bazungu/
K: ndiyo/ lakini ku namna ya kusikilizana na bazungu: tuko tunasikilizana tu/
F: mm/
K: tutasumbulia kidogo mais sawa bazungu ni bantu benye kuwa na akili: kama minakosa kintu kidogo ataweza kujua asema anatafuta kusema: hivi/
F: mm/
K: lakini ku namna ya kusikia mi niko nasikia namna ya kusikilizana tutasikilizana muzuri/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
13. K: Mm. Now I have been thinking, if I find another job as a driver or if I find good work as an artist in some other place...
F: Mm.
K: Then I’ll stay with it. But if this doesn’t work out, well, something deep inside me tells me to go to Malawi.
F: Mm. Malawi?
K: Yes.
F: Why that?
K: Go and live there. Because I think if I paint there I’ll get on like in the old days.
F: You think so?
K: Yes, that’s what I think. I’ll tell you about it when we meet maybe on Friday...
F: Will they accept you there?
K: Sorry?[19]
F: Will they accept you? (I mean)  when you get there will they allow you?
K: To get into Malawi?
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Is it not difficult to get into the country?
K: Ah, why would it be difficult? My ethnic group is here and in Zambia.
F: In Zambia, but Malawi, that’s a different matter.
K: When I get to Zambia I’ll be a Zambian, right? Now, Zambia and Malawi get on well with each other, don’t they?
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
K: Because there in Malawi – I think relations between Malawi and Zambia are good.
F: Do you speak a language spoken in Malawi?
K: No.
F: No.
K: I’ll learn it.
F: You’ll learn it.
K: I’ll learn it, yes. [chuckle]
F: How many languages do you speak?
K: I can speak Bemba and when I go to Malawi and speak Bemba they’ll understand.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes.
F: How many languages could you speak?
K: In Zambia?
F: No, right now. How many languages?
K: Right now I speak Ndembu, I speak Lunda, Tshokwe, and Luba-Katanga, Kisanga, and Luba-Kasai, and...
F: Swahili.
K: Swahili.
F: French.
K: A little French, not much.
F: ...?...
K: Because in school I only made it to fifth grade.
F: Well, this makes it difficult to communicate with Europeans.
K: Yes. Still, as far as communicating goes we get along.
F: Mm.
K: We will not talk much but Europeans are intelligent and if there is something I cannot express a European will know this is what he wants to say.
F: Mm.
K: At any rate, I understand (French) and so we’ll communicate alright.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
14. F: uliuzisha hii peinture ingine na nini?
K: niliuzisha hii moya na professeur moya iko huku chini/
F: chini?
K: na iko huku chini: hapa: karibu hapa/ sijui kupita mbalambala hii munene moya:
F: mm/
K: ile ya mpili kwenda hivi mwa: mwa: kwa gauche/
F: mm/ moya tu?
K: aliuza moya: lakini ilikuwa ya ndeke/
F: ya ndeke/
K: ilikuwa paka ya ndeke ndiyo/
14. F: Who[20] did you sell this other painting to?
K: That one I sold to a Professor who lives down here.
F: Down (here)?
K: He lives down here, close to this place. I don’t know, when you walk along this main street.
F: Mm.
K: It’s the second to the left.
F: Mm. (Did he buy) just one painting?
K: He bought one. It was a painting of birds.
F: Of birds.
K: It was just (a painting) of birds, yes.
15. F: mm/ na: bon/ Mwila/ i: iko muzima?
K: Mwila iko muzima: nayee naye sasa vile vile: iko anatumika Kasumbalesa/
F: Kasumbalesa?
K: ... ? ... ku baJaponais: ndiyo/
F: ku baJaponais?
K: ku baJaponais/
F: balimuengager?
K: balimuengager kule ndiyo/
F: na a: anafanyaka kazi gani?
K: yeye iko anafanya kazi: kazi yake ya zamani: charpentier/
F: charpentier/
K: charpentier/
F: sermali?
K: charpentier:
F: aah/
F: kama mbele maçon anaisha: kufanya kaplosh/
F: ah oui: c'est ça/ c’est ça/
K: aah/ sasa kiisha kupopa malata/
F: c’est ça/ c’est ça/
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: ni ile kazi ana:
K: ni ile kazi yee anafanya/
F: na aliacha peinture?
K: na yee aliacha vile vile peinture: mais lakini: nilisikia anatumika kidogo kidogo eko anauzisha kule/ alafu anafanya kazi ingine: na anapenta kiloko anauzisha/
F: baJaponais habapende?
K: baJaponais banapenda: mais: ts:
F: habalipa/
15. F: Mm. Alright then. (Let’s go back to) Mwila. Is he still alive?
K: Mwila is alive and he, too, now has a job in Kasumbalesa.
F: Kasumbalesa?
K: ...?... with the Japanese, yes.
F: With the Japanese?
K: With the Japanese.[21]
F: They hired him?
K: They hired him there, yes.
F: What kind of work is he doing?
K: He works in his former trade as a carpenter.
F: As a carpenter.
K: As a carpenter.
F: Sermali (in Swahili).[22]

K: Carpenter.
F: I see.
K: First comes the mason’s work, then the roof[23] is put on.
F: Ah yes, that’s what it is.
K: Yes, and then the sheets are nailed down.
F: That’s right.
K: Yes. [chuckle]
F: That’s the work he...
K: That’s the work he does.
F: And he gave up painting?
K: He, too, gave up painting although I heard that he still paints now and then and sells (his work) there. But what it is he holds this other job while he does some painting for sale.
F: Don’t the Japanese like (paintings)?
K: The Japanese like them but, well...
F: They don’t pay.
16. K: kwa sababu: bwana: minaangaria kama mambo ya penti iko na kabila inapenda penti/ minajua muzuri kabila inapenda penti: Belges: France: eh: Italie kidogo:
F: mm/
K: eeh: Amerique:
F: mm/
K: baAmericains bazungu banapenda vile vile/ tena maSuède/
F: maSuède?
K: aah: maSuède banapenda penti/ mais lakini tubila ingine: ts: si zaidi: beko banauza tu mais lakini si zaidi/
F: mm/
K: iko mufano sawa baGrèques banapenda/
F: mm/
K: baGrèques banapenda penti: mais lakini bo hapana penda hii/ [points to his own paintings] ile art bo hapana penda/ bo banapenda ile ya nyumba: umuonyeshe mawingu muzuri: ile njo kintu banapenda/
F: mm/
K: na tena banafanya ku bei kiloko sana/ sasa na she nabo bile bya mawingu ndiyo minajua kufanya/ mitaweza kufanya/ alafu tunaangaria asema: haina penti/
F: ba: nini? nini? ba: mawingu?
K: mapaysages/ tuseme paysages/
F: paysages/
K: aah/ paysages/
F: unasemaka mu: mu Swahili? ma?.­
K: tableaux ile ya mawingu/ mawingu si ile ciel?
F: ah oui/
K: ciel si iko mawingu? eeh?
F: wingu? wingu/
K: mawingu ndiyo: mawingo eh: ile ciel/
F: aaah/
K: sasa kama minatafuta kufanya ile paysages: sitafanya décoration/
F: ah/
K: mitaweka mawingu/
F: aah/
K: ni ile saa tunasema bo banapenda tableaux ya mawingu/ kama unaangaria ciel ...
F: ...paka mawingu: na mutoni: na ...
K: na mutoni: na mugini: ah/
F: na mutum: ah: nani?
K: mitumbu/
F: mitumbu/ [laughs]
K: ah ndiyo/ bo: ile banapenda/
F: na jua:
K: ndiyo/
F: ina: inashuka:
K: ndiyo/ iko sawasawa bantu mweusi/
16. K: Because, bwana, in my view interest in painting depends on the ethnic group. I know quite well the groups that like painting: Belgians, French, and a little bit also Italians.
F: Mm.
K: Yes, (and then there is) America.
F: Mm.
K: Americans also like (paintings), as do Swedes.
F: Swedes?
K: Yes, Swedes like paintings.[24] But as far as the other small groups are concerned, well, they buy but never much.
F: Mm.
K: Greeks, for instance, like (paintings)
F: Mm.
K: Greeks like paintings but not this kind. [points to his own paintings]. This kind of art they don’t like. They like the kind you put up in a house. Show them a beautiful (landscape with) clouds, that’s something they like.
F: Mm.
K: And also, the price they pay is very small. Now I know how to do their clouds. I could do them but the way we look at it that is not painting.
F: What? What is this, clouds?
K: Landscapes. Let’s say landscapes.
F: Landscapes.
K: Yes. Landscapes.
F: How do you say this in Swahili?
K: Paintings of mawingu. Mwingu, that’s the sky, right?
F: Ah, yes.
K: The sky that’s mawingu, right?
F: Wingu? Wingu.[25]
K: Mawingu, yes. Mawingu means sky.
F: I see.
K: Now, if I would want to do those landscapes I would not paint decoration.
F: Ah.
K: I would put in clouds.
F: I see.
K: That is what we mean when we say they like pictures with clouds. If you look at the sky...
F: (Not just) clouds, a river, and...
K: A river, and a village, yes.
F: And, how do you call them?
K: Dugout canoes.[26]
F: Dugout canoes. [laughs]
K: Ah yes. That’s what they like.
F: And the sun.
K: Yes.
F: That is setting.
K: Yes. It’s the same with black people.
17. F: sawa wee: una: wee unaona hii paysages namna gani? sawa wee artiste/
K: mu paysages?
F: eeh/
K: minaona mu paysages: iko muzuri: mais lakini: kama minaangaria muzuri: ts: mu paysage hamuna muzuri juu: mayele ya paysage iko kidogo/
F: mm/
K: iko bintu tunaona na macho sawa/ tunafanya paysage/ lakini: sawasawa mu peinture ile ya moderne ni minaona kwangu iko muzuri/ c'est pourquoi ...
F: ...peinture ya?
K: ile ya moderne/
F: moderne/
K: kwangu minapenda iko muzuri/ juu ya nini? iko bintu: utawaza paka ku kichwa ya muntu/ nawaza minasema bon: nifanye hivi: nifanye hivi: unafanya/ ao kama mitakamata pinceau: minasema bon/ nifanye tu mistari bule/
F: mm/
K: kama minafanya ile mistari: itakuwa muzuri? bon: minafanya: minafanya: minafanya: kiisha minaweka décoration muzuri muzuri: minatosha hivi: bantu banapenda sana sana/
F: unafanya pa: paka: utaf: unafanya paka peinture na mistari?
K: ya ao na mistari: ao na namna gani/ si namuna ni: ni style?
F: ah bon/
K: ni style/ nitaweza ...?... bon: nifanye hivi: nifanye hivi: kama minafanya hivi iko muzuri? bantu batapenda? unawaza ku kichwa wee moya/
F: eh/
K: wee hapana kuona ile kintu/ eh? tuseme: maneno mu mamoderne: iko sawa sawa: ni mahistoires: ni penti: tutaweza kufanya hata mahistoires/
F: mm/
K: kama minaangaria minasema bon: zamani bantu balikuwa kufanya hivi: balikuwa banafanya hivi/ bon: mi sikuona hapana/
F: mm/
K: alors: minafanya minafanya: nawekaweka muzuri: minaprésenter bantu: haba banaangaria asema: aah: c'est vrai: histoire fulani: ilipitaka hivi: minaexpliquer: banapenda/
F: mm/
K: bon: sasa minafanya bile bintu: mi sikuona hapana/ minawaza bule: ao nasikia bule: minafanya/ ni vile minaangaria kumbe kama peinture moderne: iko muzuri kupita paysages/
F: paysages/
K: kwa sababu paysages: kama bananiambia asema fanya Lualaba/ mi bado kuona Lualaba/ sasa nitafanya nini?
F: mm/
K: kama minafanya bya mu kichwa mitasema na muntu angaria iko Lualaba ataitika: ndiyo iko Lualaba: kama yee bado kuona Lualaba/ alors: kama yee anaisha kuona Lualaba atasema hapana hapana hapana/ Lualaba hapana sawa/
F: oui mais wee utaweza ku: kwenda Lualaba/
K: kama wee bado kwenda Lualaba/
F: oui/
K: eh/ utaweza kufanya?
F: mm/
K: hawezi kufanya:
F: hapana/
K: mais lakini ku moderne mitaweza kufanya/
F: mm/
K: kwa sababu maarts modernes iko sawasawa bintu biko sawasawa bya imagination/
F: imagination/
K: ndiyo: banasema vile ku Français: sawa sawa imagination:
F: mm/
K: ao sawa sawa bintu ya mahistoires iko inapita: eh? tunawaza bintu bya zamani bilipitaka alafu tunaweza kufanya bitatoka/
17. F: How about yourself, what is your view of those landscape paintings, speaking as an artist?
K: (You mean) what do I see in landscapes?
F: Yes.
K: The way I look at landscapes, they are nice. However, how shall I say, while I consider them nice I see landscapes as something that is not so nice because in a landscape (painting) there is little intelligence.
F: Mm.
K: It’s things we can just see with our eyes. So we paint a landscape but, as far as I am concerned, it is the kind of painting (called) modern that is beautiful. That is why...
F: What kind of painting?
K: Modern (painting).
F: Modern.
K: I like it, its is beautiful. Why? Because it is only about things you are going to think, things that are in person’s head. I ponder. Then I say, alright, this is the way I am going to do it. That’s what you do. Or (it happens) when I am about to pick up a brush and say, alright, let me paint just lines.
F: Mm.
K: When I paint those lines will it turn out beautiful? Alright, I keep painting and painting and then I put in decoration that is really beautiful. When I come up with something like that people really like it.
F: So what you do is paint only with lines?
K: Lines or whatever. Is that not (what we call) style?
F: Ah, alright.
K: It is style. Will I be able to ...?.... Let me do it this way or that way, if I paint this way will it turn out beautiful? Are people going to like it? You, and you alone, ponder this in your head.
F: Yes.
K: You cannot see this, you understand? Let me put it like this, in modern painting it is like with stories. What makes it painting is that we are able to invent stories.
F: Mm.
K: When I look at it and tell myself this is how people long ago acted – fine, but I did not actually see it.
F: Mm.
K: So then I paint and paint and put it together beautifully. I present it to people, they look at it and say, ah, that is true, it is about how a certain story and I explain how it happened and they like it.
F: Mm.
K: Now, I paint these things I have not seen. All I do is think, or feel[27], and then I paint. That is why I consider modern painting superior to landscape painting.
F: Landscape painting.
K: Because, if you take landscapes and I am told to paint the Lualaba river without ever having seen the Lualaba, what am I going to do?
F: Mm.
K: If I make it up in my head and tell someone look, this is the Lualaba he may go along with it and say, yes, this is the Lualaba – but only if he has not seen the Lualaba. However, I f he has seen the Lualaba he’ll say, no, no way, the Lualaba is not like that.
F: Yes, but you could go to the Lualaba.
K: If you haven’t been to the Lualaba.
F: Yes.
K: Well, will you be able to paint it?
F: Mm.
K: You can’t do it.
F: No.
K: Whereas in modern painting I’ll be able to do it.
F: Mm.
K: The reason is that in modern arts the subjects come, as it were, from imagination.
F: Imagination.
K: Yes, that is how they say it French, it’s like imagination.
F: Mm.
K: Or take the things that happen in stories, right? We think things that happened in the past but we are able to make them appear (now).
18. F: bon: pa kurudia ki: kiloko na: ku mwanzo: hii wakati ulitumika mu mwanzo: enfin: kufika soixante-cinq:
K: ndiyo/
F: eh? ulifanyaka paka hii: hii style?
K: ndiyo nilikuwa nafanya paka hii style/ ku wakati...
F: hauchanger?
F: niko nachanger/ niko nachanger: sasa inakuwa style tatu minafanya/
F: style tatu?
K: ndiyo/ nilifanya hii style ku mwanzo weee: minaangaria kama banauza mingi sasa/ bon: minachanger/
F: style gani?
K: sasa minachanger: nyama paka sawa: ndeke paka sawa/ sasa minaweka mistari: eh? itakuya ya mistari penti mingi/
F: oui/
K: penti mingi ndani niko naweka mistari: sasa kama iko karibu hivi: wee hapana kuona hivi angaria ndeke nyama hapana/
F: ah/
K: utaona iko bule/ paka penti: minaweka penti mingi/ sasa kama unaweka mbali: ah njo utaona sawasawa nyama/ sasa unawaza sawa nyama/
F: mm/
K: ile: niliacha tena/ kiisha yake: nilianza kufanya hivi/ [picks up painting] si unaona ile nyama kule chini?
F: oui/
K: sasa pahali ya kuweka kule ile fasi ya ndeke ile: mi niliweka mawingu/
F: oui/
K: minaweka paka mawingu bule: naweka na fond: na muhulu: unajua muhulu?
F: muhulu?
K: eeh/ forêt/
F: oui oui/
K: oui: minaweka ile forêt mbali sawa vile: na ciel inaonekana huku: huku chini minaweka nyama/
F: aah/
K: sasa ile naye baliuza sana sana/
F: mm/
K: ni pale mi niliacha/ minabadirisha inakuwa mara tatu/ sawa hii minaanza sasa: minaanza ku ile ya zamani kabisa/ juu ya nini minakatala ile ya sasa? maneno minaangaria kama bamingi sasa banaanza kufanya ile ma: mawingu:
F: mm/
K: ya migini: ya manyumba: sasa ile matableaux ya manyumba ya migini iko na mawingu/ sasa ni vile mi ni clair asema bon: kama minapima kufanya ile décoration: sijue bataniuza/
F: mm/
K: ni vile minapima kufanya sawa/
F: sasa hii: una: unawaza kama ni décoration?
K: ndiyo ni décoration/ ni tableau ni: tableau décoré/ banaita vile/
F: anait: nani anaita vile? mu:
K: bazungu:
F: bazungu?
K: banaita vile ndiyo/
F: ah?
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: na ulifunda: asema: ulifunda mu académie?
K: mu académie sikufunda/
F: non/
K: mu académie sikufunda hapana/ ule muzungu: Pille Marcel/ yeye alikuwa professeur ku academie/
F: c'est ça/
K: bon/ sasa/ baba yangu miye alikuwa anatumika kwa:
F: oui oui/
K: kwa Pille Marcel/
F: ni: niliisha kusikia hii/
K: ah oui/ ni vile/
F: niliisha kusikia/
K: ah/
18. F: Alright. To go back for a moment to the beginning, the time when you started working until sixty-five.
K: Yes.
F: Right? Did you always paint in this style?
K: Yes, I painted only in this style. At the time....
F: Didn’t you change?
K: I did change. I changed, right now, it’s the third style I paint in.
F: The third style?
K: Yes. In the beginning I was doing this style for a while when I noticed that they were buying many (paintings). Alright, so I changed.
F: Which style?
K: I changed then. (I had painted) antelopes and birds as they are. Now I put in lines, you understand?  There would be lines requiring a lot of paint.
F: Yes.
K: With all that paint I put on in lines you would not recognize birds and antelopes if you stood close to (the picture).
F: Ah.
K: You would think there is nothing, just a lot of paint I put on. Now when you placed (the picture) at a distance suddenly you would see something like animals. Now you think there is something like animals.
F: Mm.
K: Then I gave this up again. After that I began to paint like this. [picks up painting] You see this animal there at the bottom, don’t you?
F: Yes.
K: Now, instead of leaving space for birds I put in clouds.
F: Yes.
K: I just put only clouds in the background and also muhulu. Do you know the meaning of muhulu?
F: Muhulu?
K: Yes. A forest (in French).
F: Yes, yes.
K: Right, so I put this forest in the distance and here the sky appears. Here at the bottom I put animals.
F: I see.
K: People bought a lot (of this kind of painting)
F: Mm.
K: That was when I quit. I changed, now for the third time. What I took up then was to go  back to the kind of paintings I did long ago. Why do I reject the recent ones? Because I observe that nowadays there are many who paint those (landscapes) with clouds.
F: Mm.
K: Or with villages, with houses. Now, these paintings of  houses in villages show clouds. I realized this and told myself if I try painting that is decorative, I don’t know, people may buy.
F: Mm.
K: So this is what I am trying to do.
F: Take this one here, you think it is decoration?
K: Yes, it is decoration. It is a decorative[28] picture, that’s how they call it.
F: Who calls it like that? In...
K: Europeans.
F: Europeans?
K: That’s what they call it.
F: Ah?
K: Yes. [chuckle][29]
F: Did you say you studied at the Academy?
K: I didn’t study at the Academy.
F: No.
K: I didn’t study at the Academy. (There was this) European, Pille Marcel, he was a Professor at the Academy.
F: That’s it.
K: Alright, at the time it was my father(‘s brother) who worked for...
F: Yes, yes.
K: For Pille Marcel.
F: That I understood.
K: Yes, that’s how it was.
F: I understood that.
K: Yes.
19. F: na mawazo yako: [pauses] artistes: artistes bangine banaachana mu: mu nini? mm? sawa kila artiste: iko na namna yake/
K: ndiyo/
F: hii kintu ya zaidi: inafanyaka artiste: njo nini?
K: minawaza kintu ya zaidi inafanyaka artiste: ni kuwa: kuwaza kuachanisha mifano ya kutumika/ kwa sababu: tunaofwataka namna ya kutumika/ kama unakwenda ku fasi mufano sawa vile: mi nitaweza kutoka hapa: minasema bon: minakwenda Kinshasa/ eh? minaisha kujua namna gani banatumikaka tableaux ku Kinshasa/ minaisha kuona tableaux ya Kinshasa vile iko/
F: mm/
K: sasa kama minaangaria ile tableaux ya Kinshasa: minasema ah: bale baartistes ba Kinshsa banatumika hivi/ bon iko muzuri/ acha mi nitumike: bon/ minatumika ile tableaux sawasawa ile ya Kinshasa: minauzisha huku/ eh?
F: mm/       
K: saa mitatoka huku minakwenda ku Kinshasa: kama mi hapana style: minatumika sasa ile style ya kule ku Kinshasa: bale bantu ba Kinshasa beko banatumika/ mi sitagagner habataniuza hapana/
F: mm/
K: sasa kama mi: minaangaria asema bon: bale bantu ya Kinshasa banatumika vile/ minatumika hii ya huku/ kwa sababu baBelges wakati baliba ...?... ile masomo: huku balio: balifanya académie balionyesha ile art ya moderne/
F: mm/
K: sasa ku Kinshasa: balionyesha ile maarts ya mapaysages/
F: mm/
K: bon/ ni vile kama minatumika sawasawa vile maarts yangu ya huku: kama minakwenda ku Kinshasa bataniuza sana/ juu ya nini? hii bintu Kinshasa: habinako/
F: c’est ça/
K: sasa kama minafika kule nakuwa sawa ni importeur/ ni vile nikawe niko artiste: niko nafanya akili yangu ya kuwaza ya kutumika bintu:
F: mm/
K: binye kuachana na baartistes bengine/
F: eyo/ kumbe ni zaidi ni mambo ya: ya kuuzisha? ni: ni: ni maneno ya kuuzisha: ya: ya:
K: ah/ kama minatumika muzuri:
F: mm/
K: eh: kama minatumika kintu yangu muzuri: mitaweza kuweka bei: saa ingine nitaweka bei mingi: mitapata/
F: mm/
K: ni vile/
19. F: In your mind, [pauses] in what way do other artist differ from one another? Mm? Every artist has his way (of painting).
K: Yes.
F: What is it, more than anything else, that makes a person an artist?
K: I think what really makes an artist is to think about how to make the ways he works distinctive. Because we are always searching for a way to work. If you move to a place, for instance, I could leave here and say, alright, I am going to Kinshasa. Right? I already know the way they paint in Kinshasa. I have seen what paintings from Kinshasa are like.
F: Mm.
K: Now, looking at those paintings from Kinshasa I tell myself, ah, that is the way those artists from Kinshasa work. This is good stuff , that’s how I am going to paint (from now on). Fine, so I do paintings like those that come from Kinshasa and sell them here. Right?
F: Mm.
K: When I leave here and go Kinshasa but have no style (of my own) and I work in the style of Kinshasa, the one in which people in Kinshasa paint, I won’t make a living, they are not going to buy (my paintings).
F: Mm.
K: However, if I look at it I tell myself, fine, this is how people from Kinshasa work, (but) I am going to paint the way we do it here. Because the Belgians, when they started those schools, what they did here was to establish an Academy to show what modern art was like.
F: Mm.
K: Whereas in Kinshasa they showed the arts of landscape painting.
F: Mm.
K: Alright. This is why, if I paint like the arts I am familiar with here and I go to Kinshasa they will by a lot from me. Why? Because these things don’t exist in Kinshasa.
F: That’s it.
K: Once I am there I’ll be like and importer. This is how I can make it as an artist. I strain my brains thinking about how to do things.
F: Mm.
K: Things that are different from (the way) other artists (paint).
F: I see. So, it above all selling that matters? It’s about selling...
K: Ah, (only) if my work is good.
F: Mm.
K: Yes, if I do my stuff well I’ll be able to set the price. I may put a high price on it and get it.
F: Mm.
K: That’s how it is.
20. F: mm/ na: kumbe: wee unaona: unanonaka peinture: ni sawa: sawa kazi ingine?
K: ku namna ku kuona kwangu kwa: kwa macho?
F: ndiyo/
K: minaangaria kama peinture ni kazi muzuri ya kuanza kupita tuazi yote/ si sawa kazi ingine hapana/ kwa sababu kama niko: sawa hivi niko artiste: sitalala njala hapana/
F: mm/
K: mitafika fasi yote mitafika: niko artiste/ hata mi sina Makuta: siwezi kulalala na njala hapana/ ni vile minaangariaka kwangu mi asema kumbe kazi ya peinture iko muzuri kupita kazi yote/
F: mm/ na: alafu: hii mwenye: mwenye kuuza bintu yako: peinture yako/ ni paka: paka bazungu?
K: ndiyo mi situmikake ile hapana: maneno bantu: bantu nitasema nini? bantu banapenda sawa vile nilikuonyesha: banapenda mawingu/
F: ah oui/
K: banapenda mikini/ minajua kufanya mikini/ na hapa sasa kwangu kuku tableaux kama ni mbili hivi ya migini/
F: mm/ njo bantu bana: bana ...?...
K: [overlapping] njo bintu bantu banapenda/ mais lakini bei yake iko kiloko/
F: hata hii ingine ya: ya sawa mamba muntu?
K: aah sawa ile ya bamamba muntu: eh? bei yake iko kidoko/
F: mm/
K: sasa kama mi niko nafanya hii mapeintures sawa hivi: minawaza hata minakwenda mu Europe: sitaweza kwenda kuexposer mamba muntu/
F: mm/
K: alakini kama niko na peintures sawa sawa hivi minakuwa kuexposer/
F: mm/
K: ni vile mi niko naangaria minasema kama niko napenta ile matableaux ya bamamba muntu: na matableaux ya ma: nini: iko sawa unapotesha wakati ya kuwaza akili/
F: c'est ça/
K: ndiyo/
F: c’est ça/
K: sababu kama unazobelea kufanya ile bintu sawa sawa bamamba muntu: inaisha/ ndiyo: utaanza kuuzisha: mara moya banakupatia un Zaire: banakupatia deux Zaire: uko unauzisha: alafu hautakuwa na akili hapana/
F: mm/
K: na ile tableaux ya mamba muntu uliyokutoka nayo unakwenda kuexposer fasi ingine: hapana sawa sawa mu Europe/
F: mm/
K: banaangaria kama ni michezo/
F: [chuckle]
K: ndiyo/
F: unawaza?
K: ndiyo ni vile minawaza/
F: sasa uta: uta: utawaza kama utaendelea namna gani? maneno bazungu bon: bazungu banaikala: alafu wakati inaachana sasa/ eh: indépendance alifika:
K: ndiyo/
F: sasa: namna gani utakuwa artiste Zaïrois: kama paka bazungu bana: banauzish: banauza peinture?
K: minawaza nitaweza kuwa tu artiste: hata bantu batauza: juu ya nini? kwa sababu: zamani bantu minajua muzuri bantu banakuwa banauza tableaux hapana/
F: mm/
K: balikuwa banaangaria asema iko bintu ya bazungu/
F: mm/
K: na bantu balikuwa banafanya cadrement: anakamata foto ya bibi yake: ya nduku yake: ya nani: anaweka mule mu cadre/
F: c’est ça/
K: na kama eko anakuya anaangaria asema nduku yangu fulani: nduku yangu fulani: ndani ya cadre/ eh? lakini sasa minaangaria kiloko kiloko: bantu: banaanza kuuza ile tableaux ya mamba muntu: banaanza kuuza bengine: utasikia: bon: wee utufansie tableau ya manyumba/ eeh? banaanza kuuza ile tableaux ya nyumba: na pole pole civilisation kama itaingia minawaza batauza na hii/
F: ah bon/
K: ni vile/ sasa mi yangu ndiyo: banaisha kuona/ beko anaangaria iko muzuri: banasifu iko muzuri/ sasa namna ya bei kama nibapatia: banashinda/
20. F. Mm. So, the way you look at it, painting is work like any other?
K: (Are you talking) about the way I look at it with my eyes?
F: Yes.[30]
K: In my view, painting is good work, in principle better than all other kinds of work. It is not like any other work. Because, take me, I am an artist, I’ll never go hungry.
F: Mm.
K: Wherever I end up, I am an artist. Even if I have no money I won’t go to sleep hungry. That is how I have always seen my situation and that is why I think that painting is better work than any other.
F: Mm. But it is only Europeans who buy your paintings?
K: Yes. I don’t paint this other stuff because people – what can I say about them? – people, as I showed you, like landscapes.
F: Ah, yes.
K: They love village scenes. I know how to do villages. Right now I have two pictures of villages at home.
F: Mm. It’s the people who...?...
K: This is the stuff people like but the price for it is low.
F: And what about other kinds, such as Mamba Muntu?
K: Yes, like those Mamba Muntu paintings, right? They are cheap.
F: Mm.
K: Now, if I were to do this kind of painting and go to Europe, I think, I could not exhibit Mamba Muntu (paintings).
F: Mm.
K: But if  I have paintings like these I exhibit them.
F: Mm.
K: That is how I look at it and I tell myself, if I paint pictures of Mamba Muntu or whatever this is losing time that could be spent on intelligent thinking.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes.
F: That’s it.
K: Because if you get used to painting stuff like Mamba Muntu it’s the end. Sure, you are going to sell. They give you one Zaire one time, two Zaire another, you are selling but you won’t keep you wits.
F: Mm.
K: And those Mamba Muntu paintings, you may take them along and exhibit them some place else but nowhere like in Europe.
F: Mm.
K: They will not be taken seriously.[31]
F: [chuckle]
K: Yes.
F: You think so?
K: Yes, that’s what I think.
F: Now, how do think you will carry on? Because Europeans – alright, Europeans are still around but the times have really changed with the arrival of Independence .
K: Yes.
F: How will you remain a Zairian artist if only Europeans buy (your) paintings?
K: I think I will be able to remain an artist, even Africans are going to buy (my work). Why? Because I know quite well, in the past Africans did not buy (my) paintings.
F: Mm.
K: They considered them stuff for Europeans.
F: Mm.
K: And Africans would make frames, a person would take a photograph of his wife, of a relative of his, whatever, and put it in a frame.
F: That’s how it used to be.
K: And if someone would come and see this he would say, look this is my friend so-and-so in this frame. Right? But what I observe now is that, little by little, Africans are beginning to buy those Mamba Muntu paintings and others and you may hear a person saying, do a painting of houses for us, right? So they begin to buy paintings of houses and slowly, as civilization takes hold, I believe they will also buy this kind of painting.
F: Ah, alright.
K: That’s how it is. In fact, by now they have seen my work. They consider it beautiful and praise it, it’s beautiful. Only, when I tell them the price it is too much for them.
21. F: na mu kazi yako unabakia paka peke yako: ao mara ingine una: unakutana na maartistes: maartistes bengine munasungumuza: muna:
K: ndiyo ndiyo: niko na baartistes mingi tunasumbuliaka/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/ niko na baartistes mingi tunakutaniaka: tunasumbulia/ lakini...
F: ...sasa: unasumbulia juu ya: ya: ya namna ya kufanya peinture?
K: nidyo/ kuko bamingi: tuko tunasumbulia asema sasa tutafanya namna gani? angaria: eh? sasa: tuko tunauzisha tableaux ku bei kidogo sana/ ni juu ya nini?
F: mm/
K: eh? bengine banasema tuko tunauzisha vile sababu: hatuna namna...
F: na hapa/ oui/ hapa Kolwezi muko ngapi?
K: ah/ kwa sababu mimi hapa Kolwezi: niko sawa sawa niko mugeni/
F: ah bon?
K: ndiyo/ mi bado kufanya siku mingi/
F: unaikala zaidi: zaidi unaikala Lubumbashi?
K: zaidi minaikala Lubumbashi/ sasa minatoka Lubumbashi: nilifika: pale nani: Fungurume: na mi nilitoka Fungurume tena: minarudia Lubumbashi: sasa minaangaria bon: minakuya huku minayengesha nyumba/
F: u: unayenga?
K: minayenga nyumba hapa sasa/ aah/
F: kule ku Forrest?
K: ndiyo/ sasa vile minayenga nyumba hapa: alafu minaangaria mawazo yangu: kama minaikala hapa inafaa kama minafanya kazi/
F: mm/
K: eh/ kama minapataka kazi ya chauffeur: hapana maneno: ao mi niko natumika: niko napenta: sitaacha kupenta hapana/
F: mm/
K: niko napenta/ alafu: niko na batoto/ sasa minaangaria kazi mi sipate/ akili yangu anaanza kuniwazisha kusema kumbe kwenda fasi ingine maneno nitakwenda: pengine mitapenta muzuri nitauzisha/
F: bibi yako analima?
K: hapana/
F: hapana?
K: hapana/
F: anaba: bakia paka:
K: anabakia paka bule/
F: oh: mu nyumba?
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/ ah: iko na kazi mingi ya batoto tano/
K: batoto tano ndiyo/
F: batoto: bengine baliisha kukomea? non/
K: hapana: mutoto wa kwanza wa mu soixante-deux/
F: soixante-deux?
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: bibi yako ni Lunda vile vile?
K: ndiyo/ [takes a photo from his wallet]
F: mm/eyo/ uko na foto/
K: mm/
F: njo famille yako?
K: ndiyo/ bibi yangu yee huyu/
F: eyo/
K: mm/
F: mm: muzuri/ ni karibu na nyumba yako?
K: ndiyo ni karibu na nyumba yangu ya:
F: ya: ya matafari ya mubiti/
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle] ndiyo/ [laughs]
F: [laughs] oui: siku ingine mi nitapenda ku...
K: kufika/
F: ah?
K: muzuri bwana aksanti/
F: hata ku: kumuangaria: kukuangaria:
K: ndiyo/
F: kukuangaria:
K: ndiyo/
F: sawa vile una: unafanya kazi yako:
K: ndiyo ndiyo/
F: ya kupenta:
K: ndiyo/
21. F: And do you keep to yourself in your work? Or do you sometimes meet other artists and have a chat...
K: Yes, yes. There are many artists with whom I talk all the time.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes. I get together with many artists and we have conversations. However...
F: ...right now, do you talk about ways to paint?
K: Yes. There are many with whom we talk (asking ourselves) how we should paint. Look, nowadays we sell our paintings for very little. Why is that so?
F: Mm.
K: You understand? Some say we sell like this because we don’t have a way...
F: Yes, and here in Kolwezi how many of you are there?
K: Well, (I don’t know) because here in Kolwezi I am like a stranger.
F: Is that so?
K: Yes, I haven’t been here long.
F: (So the place where) you are really at home is Lubumbashi?
K: Really at home I am in Lubumbashi. Then I left Lubumbashi for Fungurume. Fungurume I left again and returned to Lubumbashi. Then I considered things and came to this place where I had a house built.
F: You built (a house)?
K: I built a house just recently, yes.
F: There in Forrest township?
K: Yes. But, now that I build a house here, I think about it and realize that, if I stay in this place, I need to have a job.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. I may get a job as a driver, it doesn’t matter, and even if I have work I paint. I am not going to give up painting.
F: Mm.
K: I paint. Still, I have children. Now, if I don’t get a job, my mind will make me think of moving to some other place. Because if I go away perhaps I will paint well and sell (my work).
F: Does your wife work in the fields?
K: No.
F: No?
F: She just stays (at home).
K: She stays (at home) without work.
F: At home?
K: Yes.
F: Mm. Well, she has a lot of work with five children.
K: Five children, yes.
F: Among the children, are some grown up? No.
K: No, the first child is from sixty-two.
F: Sixty-two?
K: Yes. [chuckle]
F: Is your wife also Lunda?
K: Yes. [takes a photo from his wallet]
F: Mm. I see, you carry her photograph.
K: Mm.
F: Is this you family?
K: Yes, this one is my wife.
F: I see.
K: Mm.
F: Mm, nice. Is this by your house?
K: Yes, it is by my house.
F: The one built with sun-dried[32] bricks.
K: Yes. [chuckle] Yes. [laughs]
F: [laughs]. Yes, some other day I would like to...
K: ... come by.
F: May I?
K: That’s fine, bwana, thank you.
F: Just to take a look at you.
K: Yes.
F: To watch you.
K: Yes.
F: How you do your work.
K: Yes, yes.
F: (How you do your) painting.
K: Yes.
22. F: na ju: sasa: juu ya huyu tableau:
K: mm/
F: napenda kwanza kama utanielezea vizuri vizuri: namna yake: [picks up painting]
K: vile niliwaza?
F: oui/ c'est ça/
K: hii tableau niliikala minawaza minasema bon: minaweza kufanya tableau moya: banyama beko mu pori beko na kulya: banaikala: alafu: ndeke inaluka: nyama inashituka/ bengine banakimbia/
F: mm/
K: eh/ ni vile: nilifanya/ unaona pale peko: bale beko ma: banakunjama: banakulya:
F: mm/
K: bale mbili beko pale banalala: sasa pale bengine banasikia ile saa ndeke inaluka: pang: (onomatopoetic) sasa banashituka banaanza kuangaria/ et puis: bale bengine mbili banakimbia/
F: banakimbia/
K: vile niliwaza/
F: aah/ ni ndeke gani?
K: hii ndeke: ni: ndeke inakalaka fasi: sawa sawa mafasi ya Kafwakumba: eko ku mihulu/ banaita moni/
F: moni/
K: moni: ndiyo/
F: moni/
K: ndiyo/
F: na: na hii nyama ni?
K: chukonda/
F: chukonda?
K: ndiyo/ alafu mu Français mi sijue kama ni nyama gani/
F: [overlapping] mu Swahili?
K: hapana ile ni lugha yangu/ eh: mu Swahili banasema nkonji/
F: nkonji/ hii nyama?
K: ndiyo/
F: hii nyama?
K: ndiyo/
F: ni sawa nswala ao?
K: iko sawa nswala: lakini yee iko mukubwa kupita nswala/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/
F: uliisha kuona na macho?
K: niliisha kuona na macho/ ndiyo/
F: wapi?
K: hata huku: iko: zamani ilikuwa huku/ niliona kipande ya Biano/
F: ya Biano?
K: ndiyo/ kipande ya Biano: alafu Biano kule: Kansenia huku: pale katikati/ maneno ile saa nilikuwa ku SOCOTEF: nilikuwa na bale bazungu ba: ba prospection:
F: mm/
K: tulikuwa tunakwenda nabo kufanya prospection ni pale niliona ile nyama/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/
F: na: kumbe: mu mwanzo: kabisa: unaanza na mawazo/ na mwazo yako/
K: na mawazo yangu ndiyo/
F: mm?
K: ndiyo/
F: na unawaza sawa vile ulisema: unawaza kama kintu: kintu fulani: ilifika/ ah? ndeke inaruga/
K: eh: hapana/ minasema hivi/ niliwaza: nifanye nyama iko inakulya/
F: mm/
K: mu pori: alafu ndeke inaluka: nyama inashituka/
F: mm/
K: sasa bengine bana: banakimbia/
F: mm/
K: ni vile/
22. F: (Let’s talk) now about this painting here.
K: Mm.
F: What I would like you to do is to explain it to me in detail. [picks up painting]
K: (You mean) how I though it up?
F: Yes, exactly.
K: I took some time to think about this painting. Alright, I told myself, I could a picture showing antelopes[33] in the bush, feeding. But then birds take off and the antelopes are alarmed. Some of them run away.
F: Mm.
K: Yes, this is how I did it. You see over there they ...?... and feed.
F: Mm.
K: Those two over there are resting. Now, when the others hear the sound the birds make when they take off they are startled and start to look around and those two run away.
F: They run away.
K: That’s what I thought up.
F: I see. What kind of bird is this?
K: This bird occurs in certain places like around Kafwakumba, on termite-hills. They call it Moni.
F: Moni.
K: Moni, yes.
F: Moni.
K: Yes.
F: And these animals are?
K: Chukonda.
F: Chukonda?
K: Yes. But I don’t know how they are called in French.
F: [overlapping] In Swahili?
K: No, this is in my language. Wait, in Swahili they say Nkonji.
F: Nkonji, for this animal.
K: Yes.
F: This (specific) animal?
K: Yes.
F: Is it like (the one called) Nswala?
K: It resembles Nswala but it is bigger.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes.
F: Have you actually seen them.
K: Yes, I have with my eyes.
F: Where?
K: Even here, they used to be around in the past. I saw them in the area of  the Biano (plain).
F: Biano?
K: Yes, in the Biano area. In the middle between Biano there and Kansenia here. Because at the time I worked for SOCOTEF and those European prospectors.
F: Mm.
K: We went along with them on prospecting trips, that is where I saw those animals.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: So then, in the beginning, first of all, you start with thoughts, with your ideas.
K: With my ideas, yes.
F: Right?
K: Yes.
F: And, as you said, you think. Do you think of something specific? Something that happened? Of birds taking off?
K: Well, no. What I said was that I thought of painting antelopes that are feeding.
F: Mm.
K: In the bush. But then birds take off and the antelopes are alarmed.
F: Mm.
K: Then some of them flee.
F: Mm.
K: That’s how it was.
23. F: mm: sasa mu hii peinture: [pauses] hii kintu ina: inaonyesha: kama ni yako/ hii kintu ya zaidi ni nini?
K: ile kitu inaonyesha zaidi asema ni yangu?
F: mm/
K: ni ile mitumikio minatumika minawaza kama: sijui: hakuna muntu mungine anatumika sawa vile/
F: ni nini?
K: ile namna minatumikatumika ile/
F: ku: mais nini? ku: kutumika:
K: ndeke: na nyama/
F: ndeke na nyama?
K: ndiyo/ kuko bengine: ndiyo: kuko bengine: beko banatumika nyama/ kuko bengine banatumika ndeke/ mais lakini kati kati yee ao na mi inaachana/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: na a: ni kusema hii style yako:
K: ndiyo/
F: mi nita: nitaweza kujua kama ni style yako?
K: ndiyo utaweza kujua vile/
F: mais: namna gani? namna: mu: mu nini? ni ndeke? ni nyama?
K: mu ndeke na nyama/ na ile mayani: na ile décoration tu/
F: décoration?
K: ndiyo/ décoration: ndeke: nyama: inaachana/ kwa sababu ndiyo/ mingi banasema Pilipili anafanyaka décoration sawa/
F: mm/
K: lakini Pilipili eko anafanya décoration ya Pilipili: eko nafanya sawa/ [shows]
F: oui/
K: anafanya sawa/ kiisha anafanya sawa/ kiisha anafanya sawa/
F: ah bon/ si njo Mwenze?
K: pamoya na Pilipili/
F: ongoye kiloko/ ongoye kiloko/ [goes away to get painting] angaria huyu/
K: ah oui: huyu ni Pilipili/
F: huyu ni Pilipili?
K: ni Pilipili ndiyo/
F: ha?
K: ndiyo/
F: kumbe unaona?
K: ndiyo/
F: style yako ya zaidi: sasa una: una: unaweza kusema ni: ni Pilipili namna gani?
K: si minaona ku namna ya décoration/ yake vile anaweka?
F: décoration?
K: ndiyo/
F: kama ilikuwa paka mandeke: ili mara ingine ilikuwa ya nguvu ya kusema ni Pilipili?
K: si unaona tena anaweka ile décoration? ile décoration anaweka/ [showing]
F: ahah/
K: eh? si unaona kule kwangu vile vile iko décoration/ sasa unaangaria ni namna moya?
F: aah/
K: ni namna moya?
F: non non na: inaachana/
K: inaachana sasa/
F: inaachana/
K: eh? ndiyo iko décoration minaweka/ na yee vile vile anaweka dé: décoration/ mais lakini kati kati inaachana sasa/
F: kumbe: ni kusema: hii: hii kintu ya kweli ina: inakuonyesha: inaonyesha kama ni wee: ni nini?
K: ni style/
F: style:
K: ni style/
F: ni nini?
K: unasema style ni nini? [chuckle]
F: ni wapi: style?
K: si tu namna tu ya kutumika nyama: ndeke: eh: na mufano tu ya décoration vile unaweka:
F: décoration zaidi?
K: ndiyo/
F: eh?
K: njo inaonyesha asema kumbe ni style ingine sasa/
F: sawa: nitaleta mufano/ wee unatumika wee wee wee: kiisha uli: uliisha ku: kufanya peintures kumi/ eh?
K: ndiyo bwana/
F: sasa mu hii pe: peintures kumi: kitu moja: inaachana:
K: inaachana/
F: kintu ingine ni paka:
K: namna moja/
F: namna moja/ nini inaachana: ao nini inabakia paka moja?
K: aaah/ mitaweza kuachanisha sujet/
F: sujet?
K: sawa ile masujets nitaweza kuachanisha/
F: ah bon/
K: mais lakini ku mufano ya nani: ya: kama unatafuta kuweka décoration: nitaweka paka vile/ sasa ile masujets mita: mitaachanisha: pengine nitafanya ndeke anaikala:
F: aah/
K: eh? pengine nitafanya ndeke anasimama: pengine ndeke analuka: he? pengine nyama inakimbia: mais lakini: iko inye kuachanachana/
F: ndiyo/
K: ah: ile masujets iko inye kuachana: mais lakini style itakuwa paka moya/
F: ahah/
K: juu kwa sababu hata minatosha hii cadre: asema ah: iko peintre fulani anafanya/ banaonea ku nini? banaonea paka ku: ­mifano inye kutumikia/ si unakuwa na hii tableau yako unasema ni Pilipili? juu ya nini? ss: minaona njo anatumikaka/
F: eeh/
K: ndiyo/
F: na: unaona: sawa: sawa vile kama unaangaria hii peinture ya Pilipili: ah: utaweza ku: utaweza kusikia ao kuona mawazo yake?
K: vile aliwaza?
F: oui vile aliwaza/
K: kidogo: ndiyo mitaona kidogo vile aliwaza/
F: kidoko namna gani: enfin: una: unawaza nini?
K: minawaza kama: [pauses] kulikuwa ndeke inye ku: ilikuwa karibu na mayai/
F: mm/
K: aliwaza nifanye ndeke mbili: mwanaume na mwanamuke: beko karibu ya mayai yabo/
F: banafanya nini?
K: ...?...
F: banachunga?                    
K: banachunga mayai/ [chuckle]
23. F: Mm. Now, in this painting [pauses] what is it that shows that it is yours? What is it precisely?
K: The thing that shows that it is mine?
F: Mm.
K: It is the way I work. I think – I don’t know – there is no one else who works this way.
F: What is it?
K: It’s the way in which I put a lot or work in this (painting).
F: But what is it you work on?
K: The birds and the antelopes.
F: Birds and antelopes?
K: Yes. Of course, there are others who work with antelopes and others still who work with birds, but there is a difference between us.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: In other words, this style of yours.
K: Yes.
F: How will I recognize it as your style?
K: You will know it.
F: But how? From what? Is it the birds? Is it the antelopes?
K: It’s in the birds and antelopes, as well as this foliage and the decoration.
F: The decoration?
K: Yes. Decoration, birds, and antelopes, they are different things. Yes, many say that Pilipili paints decoration like this.
F: Mm.
K: But Pilipili does decoration in the manner of Pililpili, like this. [shows]
F: Yes.
K: He paints like this, then like that, and then again like this.
F: I see. (Aren’t you describing) Mwenze?
K: (He does) the same as Pilipili.
F: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. [goes away to get a painting]. Look at this one.
K: Ah, yes, that is a Pilipili.
F: That one is a Pilipili?
K: It is a Pilipili, yes.
F: Right?
K: Yes.
F: So you see?
K: Yes.
F: What is that characterizes his[34] style, how can you tell it’s a Pilipili?
K: I see it from the way he put in the decoration, don’t I?
F: The decoration?
K: Yes.
F: If there were only birds would it perhaps be difficult to tell this is a Pilipili?
K: Don’t you see this decoration he put there. [showing]
F: Ahah.
K: Right? And don’t you see what the decoration looks like in my case? Now, do you see the same?
F: Well.
K: Are they the same?
F: No, no, they are different.
K: They are different, then.
F: They are different.
K: You understand? Yes, I put in decoration and he puts in decoration but there is a difference between (the two).
F: So, in other words, the thing that really shows you, that shows that it is you, is what?
K: It is style.
F: Style.
K: It is style.
F: What is it?
K: You are asking what style is? [chuckle]
F: Where is it, the style?
K: Isn’t it the way you work out antelopes, birds, and the design of the decoration you put down?
F: Above all the decoration?
K: Yes.
F: Is that it?
K: (Decoration) shows that a style is distinctive.
F: Like – let me give you an example – you keep working for a long time and finish ten paintings, right?
K: Yes, bwana.
F: Now, taking those ten paintings, will there be something that is different in each.
K: There is a difference.
F: Another thing is just...
K: ...the same.
F: The same. What changes and what remains the same?
K: Aah. I could see to it that the subject changes.
F: The subject?
K: I could make the subjects differ.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Whereas, when it comes to putting in the decoration I’ll put in the same. I can vary the subjects, maybe I could do birds that are resting.
F: I see.
K: You understand? Perhaps I could do birds standing or maybe birds taking off, right? Maybe antelopes fleeing. That is how the (paintings) differ one from the other.
F: Yes.
K: Yes, those subjects differ while the style will be the same.
F: I see.
K: Because when I take up this painting[35] I tell myself, ah, it’s the painter so-and-so who did it. How does one see that? One sees it in the design he works with. You have this painting of yours and you say it is a Pilipili, right? Why? Well, I see this is his work.
F: Right.
K: Yes.
F: When you look at this painting by Pilipili can you understand or make out his thoughts?
K: (You mean) how he thought it up?
F: Yes, how he thought it up.
K: A little. Yes, I can see a little how he thought.
F: How do you mean, a little. Just (tell me) what you think.
K: What I think is [pauses] there are birds that are close to their eggs.
F: Mm.
K: He thought, I’ll paint two birds, a male and a female. They are close to their eggs.
F: What are they doing?
K: ...?...
F: Are they watching them?
K: They watch over the eggs. [chuckle][36]
F: Mm.
24. F: mm: sasa: hata sasa mara ingine unakutana na Pilipili?
K: ku: kukatana?
F: kupatana na:
K: bado: bado/
F: kukutana/
K: bado kutania na Pilipili/ Pilipili mi nilimupata mara moya: mu mille neuf cent [drawn out] soixante: mille neuf cent soixante-troi ou deux/ non: mille neuf cent cinquante ss: cinquante: mille neuf cent cinquante: mille neuf cent cinqueante-huit: nawaza ndiyo/
F: zamani/
K: zamani: anakuwa kutumikia ku: anakuwa kutumika mu Avenue Albert: ile balisema zamani Avenue Albert: alikuwa na atelier kidogo pale iko anatumika/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/
K: na nilimujua: na kila mara kama minamuona nilikuwa namuona asema ni Pilipili/
F: Mwenze unamujua?
K: Mwenze vile vile namujua/ Mwenze alikuwa kwa Avenue l’ Etoile: coin: tuseme karibu na Bon Marché/
F: karibu na Mon Marché/
K: Bon Marché ngambo: yee ngambo...?...
F: ah ba: alafu: sasa?
K: ah sasa hapana/ maneno sasa mi sina fasi moya: niko tantôt: niko Fungurume:
F: ah/
K: kipande: na ile saa niliingia mu bazungu ya pori: sasa hakuwa namna ya kuonana hapana/
F: ahah/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/ ah bon/
24. What about these days, do you sometimes meet with Pilipili?
K: Cut each other?[37]
F: Encounter each other...
K: Not yet, not yet.
F: Meet each other.
K: So far, there has been no meeting with Pililpili. I came across him once, in nineteen hundred [drawn out] sixty – 1963 or 2. No, it was 1950, when was it again? Fifty, in 59, in 1950, yes, I believe it was in 1959.
F: Long ago.
K: Long ago. He was working on Avenue Albert, what used to be Avenue Albert, he had a little atelier there where he worked.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes.
K: I knew who he was and every time I saw him I told myself, that is Pilipili.
F: What about Mwenze, do you know him?
K: I also know Mwenze. Mwenze lived on Avenue l’Etoile, on a corner, let’s say close to the Bon Marché.
F: Close to the Bon Marché.
K: The Bon Marché, one the side of...?...
F: And what about now?
K: Ah, I don’t know about now. Because recently I didn’t have steady place, (sometimes) I stayed in Fungurume...
F: Ah.
K: ... for a while. And that was the time when I travelled with Europeans in the bush, there wouldn’t have been an occasion to see each other.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Mm. Alright.
25. na: kumbe: unaangaria hii toîle yake/
K: ndiyo/ ni toîle spéciale/
F: toîle: toîle spéciale?
K: mm/
F: hii toîles yako ulipata wapi?
K: hii toîles ni miye niko naformer/ ni mimi minafanya/
F: wee uanfanya?
K: ndiyo/
F: non: ah: mwanzo unauzisha?
K: kuuzisha?
F: non non: una: unauza?
K: ndiyo minauza: minauza nguo:
F: nguo:
K: kisha minatengeneza sawa hivi mara...?.../
F: tengenza na:
K: na penti/
F: na penti?
K: ndiyo/ minaweka colle: kiisha kuweka colle: minaweka penti/
F: ahah/
K: sasa minafanya pahali ya toile/ minawaza ni pamoya na vile banafanya/
F: oui oui/
K: pamoya/
F: oui/
25. Now to something else. When you look at the canvas (Pilipili) uses.
K: Yes. It is a special canvas.
F: A special canvas?
K: Mm.
F: Where did you get your canvases?
K: These canvases I prepare myself. I do this myself.
F: You make them?
K: Yes.
F: No (that’s not what I mean) first you sell them, don’t you?
K: Sell them?[38]
F: No, no. (I meant) do you buy them?
K: Yes, what I buy is the cloth.
F: The cloth.
K: Then I prepare it like this.
F: Prepare it with...
K: ... with paint.
F: With paint?
K: Yes, I put glue on it and then paint.
F: I see.
K: Then I have a canvas. I think this is how (others) do it.
F: Yes, yes.
K: It’s the same.
F: Yes.
26. na: sasa kama una: una: unaangaria hii peinture ya Pilipili: inaachana na peintures na: ya [recording interrupted to turn cassette] ...niliuliza/
K: na ile ya zamani na ya sasa haiachane hapana/
F: haiachane?
K: hapana/ namna moya/
F: una: una: unaona paka moya/
K: ndiyo/
F: yee: bado ku:
K: bado kugeuza/
F: kugeuza style yake/
K: bado bado/
F: hata zamani alikuwa paka na style yake/
K: paka na ile style ndiyo/
F: na wee: unaona namna gani? iko peintre mukubwa? iko peintre muzuri?
K: Pilipili?
F: mm/
K: Pilipili ndiyo iko peintre mukubwa/ Pilipili iko peintre mukubwa: minawaza ni bo njo: eh: njo bakubwa tu ya bapeintres humu mwetu tuseme/ sawa huku: kipande ya huku kwetu banasema ku Shaba/
F: aah/
K: ah ni paka bo njo bakubwa/ hakuna ...
F: ... bo: ni kusema: Pilipili na:
K: Pilipili: Mwenze: Kaballa:
F: na mu hii: mu hii nkundi nani a: alipita bengine?
K: mu ile nkundi? alafu niliangariaka kama Mwenze alipita/
F: Mwenze?
K: Mwenze alipita/ kwa sababu Mwenze mu expos: mu expositions ilipita kila mara kila mara/
F: kila mara?
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: sasa: kama unaona Pilipili: yee anabakia mu nyumba yake: ya: ya mama yake: mu KDL/ mm? anabakia paka na kanyumba kaloko tu/
K: maneno anakuwa mukubwa?
F: non/ eko: anaikala mu nyumba: maneno: ma: maneno: na mama yake: ni kusema bibi yake:
K: ndiyo/
F: ni: ni infirmière/
K: ndiyo/
F: mu KDL/
K: ndiyo/
F: kumbe yee iko na nyumba yake ya mu Camp KDL/
K: ndiyo/
F: unaona Camp:
K: ndiyo/
F: Camp Guilleaume?
K: ndiyo/
F: na hii: kama unaingia hii nyumba ya mpili mu: mu droite: njo hii nyumba yake anaikala/
K: aah/ ndiyo/
F: anaikala paka na: na nyumba kaloko:
K: kadoko/ eeh/ [chuckle]/
F: sasa Mwenze: mi minaona: minaingia mu atelier yake:
K: ah/
F: iko na peintures mingi/
K: [overlapping] mingi mingi mingi/
F: ...?...c’est tout: [claps]
K: hapana: Mwenze: maneno mu expositions Mwenze kila mara: minawaza anaisha kuexposer na ku Belgique: sijue/
F: sasa kama: kama baliexposer baliuzisha mingi: inafaa ba: bakuwe bantu ya butajiri/
K: ha: ni wazi bwana: kwa sababu ile wakati ya mbele:
F: mm/
K: sawa ku sisi baartistes eh? hatukujua l'avenir vile banasema mu Français l'avenir/
F: eh/
K: hatukujue maisha itakuya mbele hapana/
F: hapana/
K: tuliwaza kama: itakuwaka paka hivi siku yote/
F: ahah/
K: eh? sasa angaria: ile wakati tulikuwa: eh? ile wakati ya mbele tuseme: tulikuwa tunauzisha tableaux ao kama utatumika tableaux paka hapa unatumika mais macommandes iko mingi/ unaisha paka hapa: pengine batabeba yote bado kukauka banabeba: inakwenda/ eh? kwa lakini pale tulikumbuka kama tuko bantu ba Makuta siku yote/ [chuckle]
F: mm/
K: hatukuwe na mayele ya kusema: tukamate tuweka hata Makuta kidogo ku caisse: hapana/ sasa tulijua nini? kunywa: eh? kutembea: kucheza: kufanya nini: byote/
F: mm/
K: mm? bon: sasa hapa binakuwa nguvu/
F: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
K: sasa binakuwa nguvu namna ya kusema asema: tupate Makuta: binakuwa nguvu/
F: mm/
K: trop tard/ mais sawasawa ile: nani: Mwenze: ni muntu aliwazaka mbele ya saa/
F: mm/
K: eeh/ sasa shi mingi hatukuwaze mbele ya saa/
F: mm/
K: tunakuwa kuwaza ni sasa: sasa namna ya kuuzisha tableaux: inakuwa nguvu/
F: mm/
K: kwa kupata Makuta mingi sasa/ ni vile/
26. F:  Now, if you look at this painting by Pilipili it is different from the paintings by (him) [recording interrupted to turn cassette] ...I bought.
K: There is no difference between the early and the recent ones.
F: There is no difference?
K: No, (they are) the same.
F: You consider them just the same.
K: Yes.
F: He hasn’t...
K: He hasn’t changed yet.
F: (You mean) changed his style.
K: Not yet. Not yet.
F: So, even long ago he already had this style of his.
K: He always had this style, yes.
F: And how do you see this? Is he a great painter? Is he a good painter?
K: Pilipili?
F: Mm.
K: Pilipili, yes, he is a great painter. Pilipili is a great painter. I think the likes of him are the leading painters, let’s say, here in our country. By here I mean here in our country called Shaba.
F: I see.
K: Ah, they are the great ones. There is no...
F: ... “they” meaning Pilipili and...
K: Pilipili, Mwenze, Kaballa.
F: And who was the best in that group?
K: In that group? I always considered Mwenze the best.
F: Mwenze?
K: Mwenze was the best. Because Mwenze was always the best in expositions.
F: Always?
K: Yes.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Now, if you look at Pilipili. He lives in his house, or rather, his wife’s house in the Camp KDL. Mm. He lives in this tiny house.
K: Because he is old?
F: No. He lives in this house because of his mama, that is to say, his wife.
K: Yes.
F: She is a nurse.
K: Yes.
F: At KDL.
K: Yes.
F: Therefore she has her house in the Camp KDL.
K: Yes.
F: You see the Camp.
K: Yes.
F: Camp Guilleaume[39]?
K: Yes.
F: As you enter, the second house on the right that’s the house where he lives.
K: I see, yes.
F: He lives in a tiny house.
K: Tiny, yes. [chuckle]
F: Now Mwenze, what I see when I enter his atelier...
K: Ah.
F: ...are lots of paintings.
K: [overlapping] A lot of them.
F: ...?... that’s all. [claps]
K: No, Mwenze exhibits all the time. I don’t know, I believe he exhibited in Belgium.
F: Now, if they exhibited they sold a lot and should be rich people.
K: Ha, of course, bwana, because in the old days...
F: Mm.
K: ...we artists, right? We did not know the future, l’avenir, as they say in French.
F: Yes.
K: We did not know beforehand the life that was going to come.
F: No.
K: We thought it would always be like it was.
F: I see.
K: Right? Now look, at that time, in the past, let’s say, we would be selling paintings. Or you would just keep working on the paintings, there were lots of orders. As soon as you finished them it could happen that (customers) took them away. They were picked up and gone before they were dry. You understand? In those days we thought we would always have money. [chuckle]
F: Mm.
K: We were not clever enough to say, let’s put at least a little money in the savings bank, no. What was it we did know? Drink, right? Go out and dance, what not – all that.
F: Mm.
K: Mm? Fine, (but) then things became difficult.
F: Yes. Yes.
K: It is difficult nowadays when it comes to making money, it’s hard.
F: Mm.
K: It’s too late now. But someone like Mwenze is a person who thought before it got that far.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. While many of us did not think beforehand.
F: Mm.
K: We used to think, this is how it is now. But then it became difficult to sell paintings.
F: Mm.
K: And make a lot of money. That’s how it is.
27. F: na uliisha kusikia kama ile: ile wakati: bo balianza: ni bazungu bali: [pauses] namna gani? ni bazungu bali: balimusaidia: sasa mi niliisha kusikia kama ilikuwa: alikuwa bazungu: bo balikamata: maneno mara ingine bali: balipata prix/ mm? balipata Makuta mingi/ eh? sawa: baliingisha mapeintures yabo mu concours: balipata prix/ prix: premier prix:
K: mm/
F: ...?.../
K: ndiyo/
F: alafu hii Makuta: mara ingine bazungu balikamata/ uliisha kusikia hii?
K: hapana hapana hapana/ bazungu batakamata namna gani? minafanya exposition mu Foire Internationale 1960: mu foire ile balifanya ya: ya Katanga/
F: oui/
K: minafanya exposition mule/
F: oui/
K: bon: Académie anaita asema bon: ba: baartistes bote balete: balete penti/
F: mm/
K: mm/ tulileta mule penti bamingi: bengine baartistes baliisha kufwa: eh: kuko bengine baliisha kwenda mu maEurope: tulileta mule peinture/ mais: bulamatari aliexposer/ bale bazungu balisimamia kule ku exposition/ na ule muntu aliuzisha Makuta: balimupatia Makuta yake sawa vile aliuzisha/ bazungu bo hapana kujua ile namna ya eh/ hii tableaux iko yangu: minatumika ile tableaux: ni mi/ minakwenda minafanya exposition: minaweka tableaux minajua hii tableaux iko bei hivi na hivi na hivi/
F: oui mais hakuna ...?...
K: ...hakuna bazungu...
F: baliikala mu atelier ya Desfossés: ni Desfossés alileta materiaux/ alileta penti: yote yote yote/
K: ile ilikuwa ni masomo bwana/
F: masomo?
K: wakati balikuwa mu atelier ya Desfossés: ilikuwa sawasawa ni masomo banafunda/
F: mm/
K: bon: na kiisha yake Desfossés pale baliisha:
F: mm/
K: eh? baliisha kufunda: banaanza kupenta muzuri: Desfossés: ha: hakuwa paka anatumika na Desfossés/ kila muntu anakuwa anatumika kwake/ anauzisha yee moya/
F: mm/
K: anafanya maexpositions yake anapata Makuta yake yee moya/
F: mm/
K: ah mi sisikie ile mambo ya kusema bazungu aliiba Makuta/ mi sisikie: sijue/
F: mm/
K: maneno mu ile wakati nilikuwa ningali mutoto: na sikuwa mu mambo ya penti ziadi siwezi kujua/ alakini minaangaria nasema hakuna muzungu alibeba Makuta juu ya penti/
F: mm/ mi niliisha kusikia/ mm/
K: banasema balibeba je? bo balikuwa banatumika banaleta na bazungu?
F: oui/ bale: bazungu baliuzisha/
K: bazungu banauzisha?
F: bazungu baliuzisha: bali: bali: balimupa: eh: posho: eh?
K: aah/
F: banatumika weee: paka ya: ya posho/ na hii bei: ya: hii bei ya kweli: bazungu balikata/ [chuckle]
K: sijue bwana/
F: non?
K: ile minawaza: sijue mi sikuona/ siwezi kusema kintu ya mi hapana yua: mi hapana ona/
F: ah: wee u:
K: ndiyo siwezi kusikia/
F: wee bado kusikia?
K: mi nilionaka sawasawa mu hii wakati moya/
F: mm/
K: ilikuwaka muzungu moya: eh? ule muzungu aliniambia bon: minaona unafanya penti yako iko muzuri: utaleta penti: sasa utaanza kutumika penti angarie m: niko na nyumba munenene/ sasa tutaanza kuexposer penti humu: na utaweka bei: kila muzungu yote atatukuya humu: ataangaria ile tableaux: atauza/
F: wee ulifanya sawa?
K: ndiyo/
F: mu: wapi: Lubumbashi?
K: hapa Kolwezi/
F: Kolwezi?
K: mu soixante-deux/ ndiyo/
F: soixante-deux?
K: soixante-deux ndiyo/
F: ah/
K: aah/ mi nilifanya vile na ule muzungu: tulisikilizana:
F: nani? alikuwa: a: anikala humu?
K: ah ndiyo lakini siwezi kutaya iko mubaya/
F: non non non non/
K: iko mubaya/
F: non non/
K: bon: kama minataya: iko mubaya/ alafu minasema vile:
F: oui oui/
K: ni kweli/
F: oui oui/
K: ndiyo/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/ na nilianza kuuzisha: eh: nilikuwa makati ingine napata Makuta: nakuwa makati: minapata Makuta: tungali na franga/
F: mm/
K: bon/ alafu kulikuwa siku: siku ingine nilikuya: sikupata Makuta inye kuenea muzuri hapana/
F: mm/
K: bon: niliona sawa sawa: ule muzungu aliniiaba/ sasa pale aliniiaba: mi nilisema bon: minatosha tableau yangu yote inabakia/
F: unaona?
K: ndiyo/ mi nilitosha tableaux/
F: mm/
K: eheh/ lakini siwezi kusema ni bazungu bote hapana/ ni ule moya ilikuwa ni masikilizano ya yeye na miye/
F: oui/
K: sasa pale minaangaria kama yee anaanza kutembea mubaya: mi nilitosha/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
27. F: I heard that in those days, at the time when (those painters) began working, it was the Europeans [pauses] – how shall I put it? The Europeans would help you but then, I heard, there were Europeans who took away (paintings) – because it happened that they won a prize, right? They got a lot of money, right? They entered their paintings in a competition and got a prize, made first prize...
K: Mm.
F: ...?...
K: Yes.
F: But this money, sometimes the Europeans kept it. Have you heard this?
K: No, no, no. How would the Europeans keep it? I had an exhibition at the 1960 International (Trade) Fair, the Katanga Fair they organized.
F: Yes.
K: There I had an exhibition.
F: Alright, the Academy put out a call to all artists to bring their paintings.
K: Mm.
K: Mm. Many of us brought paintings. Some of the artists (shown) were no longer alive, others had gone to Europe. We brought the painting but the Government exhibited them. Europeans went to that exposition and if a person sold his he was given the money for which he had sold (his paintings). The Europeans had nothing to do with it.[40] Those paintings were mine, I worked on them, it was me. When I would go and do an exhibition I would put up those paintings knowing what their price was.
F: Yes, but was it not the case...
K: ...it wasn’t the Europeans.
F: ... that when (the artists) worked in Desfossés’ atelier Desfossés provided the materials? He provided the paint, everything.
K: This was a school, bwana.
F: A school?
K: When they were at Desfossés’ atelier, it was like a school where they studied.
F: Mm.
K: Alright, Desfossés, after they had completed...
F: Mm.
K: Right? After they had completed their studies (a painter) would no longer work only with Desfossés. Everyone worked at home and sold (paintings) himself.
F: Mm.
K: He would do his exhibitions and only he would get his money.
F: Mm.
K: Ah, I never heard about this, Europeans stealing money. I never heard that, I don’t know.
F: Mm.
K: Because at that time I was still very young and I was not really into painting, so I wouldn’t know. But as I see it I’d say there wasn’t a European who took off with the money made from painting.
F: Mm. It’s what I heard.  Mm.
K: There was talk that Europeans kept (paintings)? That (the artist) brought their work to Europeans?
F: Yes. And those Europeans sold it.
K: Europeans sold it?
F: Europeans did the selling and gave (a painter) pocket money[41], you understand?
K: Ah.
F: (The painters) kept working on and on, just for pocket money and the price, the real value, was the cut the Europeans took. [chuckle]
K: I don’t know, bwana.
F: No?
K: If I think about that, I don’t know, I never saw that. I cannot talks about something I don’t know and never observed.
F: Well, you...
K: This is something I would not hear about.
F: ... you haven’t heard that?
K: I saw something like that, once.
F: Mm.
K: There was a certain European, right? This European told me, I see that the paintings you do are beautiful. You should bring the paintings and from now on you begin working (here). Look I have a big house. We are going to exhibit your paintings here and you set the price. Every European who is going to come to us here will look at those paintings and buy them.
F: You went along with that?
K: Yes.
F: Where, in Lubumbashi?
K: Here in Kolwezi.
F: Kolwezi?
K: In sixty-two, yes.
F: In sixty-two?
K: Sixty-two, yes.
F: I see.
K: Yes, this is how I worked with that European, we had an agreement.
F: Who? Was that someone who lived here?
K: Well, yes but I could not name him, that would be bad.
F: No, no. No, no.
K: That would be bad.
F: No, no.
K: Alright. If I name him, this would be bad. But what I am telling you...
F: Yes, yes.
K: ... is the truth.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Yes,
F: Yes.
K: Right. So I began to sell and I had times when I made money. I had times when I made money. We still counted in Francs then.
F: Mm.
K: Fine, but then came the day when I was not properly paid.
F: Mm.
K: Fine, then I noticed that this European was stealing from me. When this happened I told myself, I take all my remaining paintings away.
F: You see?
K: Yes. I took the paintings away.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. But I couldn’t say it’s all the Europeans, no. It was this one with whom we had an agreement, it was between him and me.
F: Yes.
K: Only when discovered that he began to walk a crooked path did I get out.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
28. F: unaona kama: hata sasa banafanyaka exposition mu Manika? salle de Manika?
K: minasikiaka vile/ ndiyo/
F: mm?
K: ndiyio/ ...?...
F: uli: uli: haupime: kuingisha matableaux yako kule?
K: mi bado kubakia: maneno roho yangu sasa bwana: sina tranquil sawa minakuwasha asema: niko naangaria tu namna ya penti iko inatembea humu mwetu: haina muzuri sawa mbele/
F: ah/
K: kama mukeni anatoka sawasawa fasi ingine anakuya hapa ataona muzuri: maneno: eh? hayajue ni nini/ lakini minaangaria kama shee tunaexposer sasa hakuna kupata Makuta/ sasa inafaa twende fasi ingine sijue/
F: mu Kolwezi: sasa hii avenir ya humu: ya hapa Kolwezi?
K: ts: bazungu bwana habauze muzuri tena penti hapana/
F: non/
K: banapenda kuuza bei kidogo/ sasa ni ile tena...
F: ... mais mara ingine haba: habajue/ banaisha kumu: kukujua?
K: banajua/ banajua hii kintu iko kintu ya bei/ na anajua kama minauza hii kintu minakwenda kuexposer hata mu musée ya fasi ya kwetu ya: ya maEurope:
F: mm/
K: mitapata hivi na hivi/ maneno muliisha kuwa ni importeurs/
F: mm/
K: mais lakini sasa humu: banakudanganya shee: maneno sisi bi humu iko mingi: huyu iko artiste: huyu iko artiste: huyu iko artiste: ni pale kama unalomba bei nguvu anakatala/
F: mm/
K: sasa kuko bengine atabakia siku mbili tatu: chakulya hapana/ ataweza kusema bon: nitapatia hata ile bei anapenda: hata un Zaïre: leta/ hapana maneno: sasa anamuuza/ sasa shee tuliuzisha tableaux zamani tunajua valeur ya tableaux: kama minaleta tableaux na ile prix: bwana: niko naregretter/ naona iko mubaya/
F: mm/ mm/
K: nasema kumbe pahali pa kufanya vile: inafaa tu kuikala bule: kutumika kuweka: kutumika kuweka/ sasa Makuta ya kutumika kuweka: hatuna/
F: mm/
K: ni pale sasa tuiko tunawaza mawazo ya kusema kumbe twende hata fasi ingine/
F: mm/
K: maneno ya kutafuta namna ya kuuzisha/
F: oui/
28. F: Did you notice that they are doing an exposition right now at Manika, in the auditorium of Manika?[42]
K: I heard something like that, yes.
F: Mm?
K: Yes. ...?...
F: Didn’t you try and enter your paintings there?
K: I haven’t settled down yet, at the moment, bwana, I don’t have the peace of mind to think of it. What I see when I look at the state in which painting is here in our country I can only say, it doesn’t go as well as it used to.
F: Ah.
K: If a stranger, coming from some other place, gets here he will think that things are going well, right? Because he doesn’t know what it is really like. However, what I observe when we exhibit (our work) is that we don’t make money. We must go to some other place, I don’t know.
F: And in Kolwezi, what does the future look like here in Kolwezi?
K: What can it say? Europeans, bwana, no longer buy much painting.
F: No.
K: They like to buy it cheap. The one thing nowadays...
F: ... but perhaps this because they don’t know. Do they know you?
K: They do. They know that a thing like this (painting) is expensive. A person knows, if I buy this thing and then go and exhibit it in a museum in places back home in Europe...
F: Mm.
K: ... (I know) how much I’m going to get for it. Because you have become importers.
F: Mm.
K: But the way things are here nowadays they cheat you. Because there are many of us, just about everyone is an artist, and when you ask a high price (the person) says no.
F: Mm.
K: At the same time there are some (artists) who go for two or three days without food. He may say, alright, I’ll get at least the price (the customer) wants to pay. Even if it is just one Zaire, let’s have it, it doesn’t matter, and he buys (the painting) from him. Now, those of us who sold paintings in the past, we know the value of paintings. When I give away paintings for a price like that, I’ll regret it. In my view, this is bad.
F: Mm. Mm.
K: I tell myself, instead of going along with this I should just go on painting and put the work aside. But then we don’t have the money to work and lay in a stock.
F: Mm.
K: That is when we think thoughts such as let’s go elsewhere.
F: Mm.
K: To look for ways to sell (our work).
F: Yes.
29. na ulisema kama muntu ingine: peintre-artiste ingine: ana: anatumika humu: Kolwezi? uli: ulitaya jina yake/ kule ku:
K: ndiyo Kabinda/
F: Kabinda?
K: ndiyo/
F: yee anai:
K: yee anaikala hapa/
F: ah bon/
K: ah yee anaikala hapa/ [chuckle]
F: ni wee: ni: ni: kumbe ni: ni yee: alifundisha Mwila?
K: ndiyo/ Mwila: njo anafundisha yee/
F: anazeka sasa?
K: yee Kabinda?
F: aah/
K: hapana/ iko kidogo: anazeka: anazeka kidogo ya mi/ sababu yee iko muntu mufupi/
F: na: na anaendelea paka na peinture?
K: ndiyo anaendelea paka na peinture/
F: eyo/
K: ndiyo/ nayee kidoko: lakini yee hapana bahati kidogo: kuko wakati ingine ilipitaka ile saa shee bote tulifanya sawasawa kuacha eh?
F: anafanyaka nini? paka: paka:
K: lakini hapa sasa ...
F: ... mawingu? [chuckle]
K: yee iko anafanya zaidi paka mapaysages: njo ile anatumika maneno njo bintu beko banatembea banauzako/
F: oui/
K: eh/ hii maarts ya namna hivi: ts: anasema angaria iko kazi mingi: tena: [pauses]
F: aliacha hii?
K: eeh/ lakini kwa kutumika eko anatumika/ ataweza kutumika/
F: ni njo: njo ni kazi yake zaidi? hap: hanatumika kazi ingine?
K: alitumika kazi ingine nayee saa ingine: ile saa tuliacha shee bote kazi:
F: eh/
K: tunaanza kufanya sawasawa kutumikatumika tuazi ingine: nayee vile vile aliacha: lakini yeye aliacha: maneno gouvernement ile saa hapa Kolwezi alifanya musée/
F: mm/
K: sasa yee alikwenda kule ku musée/ alienda kutumika kule ku musée/ ni kazi paka ya penti/
F: humu?
K: humu Kolwezi/
F: twiko na musée?
K: ilikuwamo alafu inaisha kufa/
F: inaisha/
K: banaisha kuacha/ sasa ile saa banaanza ile musée: bon: tena nayee anaanza tena ku kupenta mara ingine/
F: anaikala wapi?
K: eko mu cité/
F: mu cité?
K: ndiyo/
F: aa: inafaa ku: tukapite kule/
K: ndiyo/ muzuri/
F: ah?
K: muzuri/
F: siku ingine/
K: siku ingine ndiyo/
29. Did you say there is another artist and painter working here in Kolwezi? You named him.
K: Yes, Kabinda.
F: Kabinda?
K: Yes.
F: He lives...
K: He lives here.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes, he lives here. [chuckle]
F: He was the one who taught Mwila?
K: Yes. He is the one who taught him.
F: Is he an old man now?
K: (You mean) Kabinda?
F: Yes.
K: No. He has gotten a little older, a little older than I. (He may give that impression) because he is a short person.
F: And does he continue with painting?
K: Yes, he continues painting.
F: I see.
K: Yes. He, too, didn’t have much luck and there was a time when we all sort of gave up (painting), you understand?
F: What is he doing? Just...
K: Well, right now...
F: ...just landscapes? [chuckle]
K: He mostly does landscapes, that’s what he works on because that is the kind of stuff that they peddle and people buy it.
F: Yes.
K: Yes. Works of art like this[43] – well, he tells himself, look, this a lot of work. And also... [pauses]
F: So he gave up this (kind of painting)?
K: Yes. But he keeps on working. He’ll work.
F: So that is really his work. He doesn’t have another job?
K: At one time he used to have another job. That was when we all gave up painting.
F: Yes.
K: We began to do odd jobs and he also gave up painting, at least until the government here in Kolwezi opened a museum.
F: Mm.
K: So then he went to the museum to work there. His job was just painting.
F: Here?
K: Here in Kolwezi?
F: We have a museum (here)?
K: There used to be one but it is closed (lit. it died).
F: It’s finished.
K: It was abandoned. But when they opened that museum he took up painting once again.
F: Where does he live?
K: He lives in the cité.
F: In the cité?[44]
K: Yes.
F: Ah, we should go by there.
K: Yes, fine.
F: Ah?
K: Fine.
F: Some other day.
K: Some other day, yes.
30. F: sasa uli: ulisema kama wee unataka kutembea: kwenda mu kazi tano?
K: ni vile nilianza kuwaza/
F: mm/
K: sasa nilipenda kusikia mawazo yako: wee uko unawaza namna gani? bitakuwa namna gani?
F: mm/
K: eeh/
F: mm/
K: kama minaisha kusikia mawazo yako vile eko: kama namna gani/
F: unaweka bei gani: ngapi: na hii? [points to painting]
K: ah ile sawa nilikuacha ku ile kuacha ni quatre cent cinquante/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: bon: shee tutakupa dix Zaïre:
K: muzuri/
F: juu ya kuuza: peinture: eh?
K: aksanti/
F: na minapenda sana kama uko na mawazo ya kutumika: kama utatumika ingine/ na zaidi mina: minapenda hii: kama unatumika: kama unafanya ingine ya sawa wee unasema: ya mustomari/
K: aah/
F: ah? sawa hii style:[points] unaona?
K: ya mistari?
F: sawa sawa ile: ya: wee unasema inafaa: inafaa: kuangaria ya mbele ya kuona/
K: aah: paka unaweka mbali: njo unaona?
F: oui/
K: aah/ ndiyo ndiyo ndiyo/
F: ao: ao: ao paka: hata pasipo ndeke: paka: sawa moderne/
K: sawa moderne: sawa bantu/ sawa bantu/ alafu: hapana bantu sawa bantu hivi: biko binaonekana tu: paka sawa mistari: tuko tunaangaria muzuri: njo ah: iko bantu/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: utaweza kufanya?
K: mitafanya ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: utafanya moya?
K: mitafanya ndiyo bwana/
F: basi utafanya kwanza: kiisha utapita?
K: ndiyo/
F: eh?
K: ni wazi/
F: utapita: tutaangaria:
K: aksanti/
F: na: ts: kama niko na ulizo ingine:
K: ndiyo/
F: eh: sasa: eh: kiisha tutaweza kupita ku nyumba yako/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm?
K: ndiyo/
30. F: Now, did you say that you wanted to travel, leaving on Friday?
K: That’s what I have been thinking.
F: Mm.
K: Now I would like to hear your thoughts. How do you think things will turn out?
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Mm.
K: (It would be good) to hear your thoughts about how this will turn out.
F: What is the price you put on this one? [points to painting]
K: Ah, that one I sort of left for you, I let you have it for four hundred and fifty (Makuta).
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Alright, we’ll give you ten Zaire.
K: Fine.
F: To buy paint, right?
K: Thanks.
F: And if you have an idea I really would like you to do another one, especially one where you work with what you called lines[45].
K: I see.
F: You understand?  Like this style, [points] you see?
K: With lines?
F: Like the one you said needs to be looked at from a distance[46] in order to see (what it represents).
K: Ah, the one you recognize only when you put it at a distance?
F: Yes.
K: I see. Yes, yes. Yes.
F: Or even one without birds, just like modern (painting).
K: Like modern painting, where there are people but they are not like people, they appear just as lines. Then, when we really look at (the painting) we see, ah, those are people.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Could you do that?
K: I’ll do it, yes. [chuckle]
F: Will you do one?
K: I’ll do it, bwana, yes.
F: Alright, so you do this and then you come by?
K: Yes.
F: Right?
K: Understood.
F: You come by and we’ll have a look at it.
K: Thanks.
F: And, I don’t know, I may have other questions.
K: Yes.
F: Yes, and after that we could go by your house.
K: Yes.
F: Mm?
K: Yes.
31. F: na: sasa niko na kintu ya kuuliza ingine/ maneno hii recherche mi minafanya eh?
K: ndiyo/
F: ni juu ya mawazo yako: mawazo ya: ya bantu juu ya kazi/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm?
K: ndiyo/
F: banawazaka namna gani? sawa wee ulisema: kama niliuliza: juu: juu ya kazi ya peintre: ulisema: kazi ya peintre: ni kazi mwenye kupita:
K: kazi yote/
F: kazi yote/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm? [pauses] sababu?
K: sababu gani minasema ni kazi moya muzuri kupita kazi yote eh? bon/ tuseme kwa mufano/ tutaikala hapa/ eh? sawa vile zaidi: sisi: hatuna macomptes/ eh? hatuna ma: Makuta ya kusema tulipe/ ndiyo kuko bengine beko na Makuta ku mabanques/ lakini si bengine: tuko bamaskini/
F: mm/
K: bon/ nitaikala hapa: alafu utasikia mara moya asema: ss: vita/ eh: mufano minasema/
F: mm/
K: vita/ bon: tutatoka tutakimbia/
F: mm/
K: eh? hakuna wee utasema bon: sasa niende nibebe Makuta: ao nifanya namna gani? nibebe nguo niende nikimbie: hapana/ tutatoka mara moya: eh: vita: vita: ah: [claps] tunakimbia tunakwenda/ bon: tu: mufano/ tutakwenda sawa sawa vile ku Zambie/ hakuna muzungu ataweza kukamata asema bon: huyu iko chauffeur: mitamuengager leo/ hapana/ ou wala huyu iko commis: mitamukamata leo: hapana/
F: mm/
K: shee bote tuko bageni/ na bazungu beko banatuongopa/ na bale bantu ba kule: hata uko na ...?.... se: sema: tusikilizane namna ya kazi: hapana: batasema ah: ni barefugiées: ao ni bantu banakuwa namna gani? mais ile saa kama mi niko peintre pale:
F: mm/
K: minatoka huku niko mikono bule/ mi sitakosa Makuta/ juu ya nini pale? mi nitaanza kupenta/ paka hii saa ile/ ao nitasumbulia kidogo na banduku unipatieko penti kidogo hivi na hivi: hivi na hivi: bon: minaisha kupata penti kidogo: ile ile saa mitapenta: mitapata namna ya kulya/ mitapata namna ya kuishi tena nitabakia sawa sawa muntu wa ile fasi/ sitakuwa na mateso/
F: mm/
K: ni vile minawaza kama kazi ya artiste: iko muzuri kwa sababu: hata minatoka minakwenda wapi: hata minakwenda mu maEurope mule: kama mi sina Makuta: inaisha: mitafanya hivi: alafu: ts: nitatembea weee: mpaka baniuze/
F: mm/
K: siwezi kulala na njala: wala siwezi kuteswa/ ni pale pangu minaangaria kama kazi ya artiste kumbe iko muzuri/
F: njo mu: maana yake:
K: ndiyo/
F: eh? inapita kwa kazi yote/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/
31. F: Now I want to ask you about something else. It has to do with the research I am doing, you understand?
K: Yes.
F: It is about your thoughts, people’s thoughts, about work.
K: Yes.
F: Mm?
K: Yes.
F: How do they think about it. For instance, when I asked you about the work a painter does you said a painter’s work is better than...
K: Any other kind of work.
F: Any other kind of work.
K: Yes.
F: Mm? [pauses] Why?
K: Why I said that this is  a kind of work that is better than any other? Alright. Let’s take an example. Here we are, right? Most of us don’t have bank accounts, right? We don’t have money to spend. Yes, there are some who have money in the banks but the rest of us, we are poor.
F: Mm.
K: Alright. I’ ll live here and then, suddenly, there is talk of war. It’s an example I am talking about.
F: Mm.
K: War! So we leave and run away.
F: Mm.
K: Right? There is no way you are going to say, now let me go and take my money or my clothes with me and run. No. We are going to leave at once – there is war, there is war – ah [claps] we run away and are gone. Alright, it’s just an example. We may go to Zambia. You won’t find a European who’ll be able to take you on, saying, fine this person is a driver, I’ll hire him today. No. Or that one is a clerk, I’ll hire him today. No.
F: Mm.
K: We all are foreigners and the Europeans will be afraid of us. Even the local people -- you may have ...?... and say let’s come to some understanding about work – it won’t happen. They’ll  say, ah, they are refugees, what kind of people are they? However, as soon as I am there as a painter...
F: Mm 
K: ...(even if) I leave here empty-handed I won’t lack money. Why? I’ll start painting the moment I get there. I just chat a little with relatives and ask them to get me some paint. As soon as I have a little paint I am going to paint and I’ll eat. I will be able to survive and live like someone who comes from that place. I won’t be suffering.
F: Mm.
K: So I think that an artist’s work is good work because that is what I will do when I leave. Wherever I go, even to places in Europe, when I run out of money I’ll paint and go around until people buy my (paintings).
F: Mm.
K: No way I’m going to sleep hungry or suffer. That is why, in my view, an artist’s work is good work.
F: That is the reason...
K: Yes.
F: Right? That’s why it is better than any other work.
K: Yes.
F: Mm.
32. na: unaona sawa hii kazi yake ya artiste ya peintre: ni bazungu bali: baliingisha humu mu: mu: mu inchi?
K: mu inchi yetu?
F: mm/
K: ndiyo: kazi ya: artiste peintre: ni bazungu baliingisha/ lakini kutoka zamani: na huku kwetu baartistes balikuwakako/
F: balikuwako?
K: ndiyo/ kulikuwa baartistes en bois/
F: en bois?
K: ndiyo/ bale balikuwa anachonga ile nani: bantu: eh?
F: nkisi:
K: nkisi ndiyo: beko banachonga bankisi:
F: mm/
K: bifwebe: banasema masques:
F: mm/
K: na ni baartistes vile vile/ tuko lakini ya penti: ni bazungu baliingisha/
F: mm/
K: alafu juu ya: artistes: buartiste hata zamani iko bulikuwako/ [chuckle]
F: kumbe unaona kama bale: bale ba: basculpteurs: eh?
K: ndiyio/
F: una: ah: comment? unamuonaka kama ni bankambo ya: yako?
K: ndiyo/ kwa sababu ni bantu beko banawaza vile vile/ nabo kama banatoka banakwenda ku fasi: hauweze kutafuta Makuta hapana: hata hana Likuta/ atafanya kintu kimoya atapata: ni bankambo yangu/ ndiyo/
F: alafu mu: ah: kabila yako ya: ya baLunda: ah?
K: ndiyo/
F: habafanye zaidi: eh: nkisi/
K: banafanya/
F: kiloko tu?
K: kiloko: banafanya kidogo: lakini habaendelee zaidi ni wazi: alafu banafanya: maneno: zamani: kabila yangu: kulikuwa bifwebe/ bako banacheza:
F: mm/
K: ndani ya bifwebe/ ndiyo/ na kulikuwa ile mankisi: nilionaka wakati ingine ku ma musée: juu madawa/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/ mm/ banafanyaka tena?
K: ndiyo banafanyaka/ lakini maneno bantu ba sasa: si banakuwa sawa sawa bantu ya sasa: mingi habajue tena/
F: mm/
K: alafu kama tunakwenda sawa sawa mafasi ya migini: bakubwa bekoako banafanya/
F: maneno sawa mi minaona: mara mingi bantu banapi: banapita na: na zanamu ya: ya kuuzisha/ eh?
K: ndiyo/
F: alafu mi minaangaria sawa ni souvenirs ya bazungu eh? [claps]
K: sana: sanamu...
F: [overlapping]...bali: balifanya sawa: juu ya kufanana ya: ya zanamu za:: ya zamani: alafu ni: ni bule/ [claps] mm? bana: banafanyaka: tshifwebe:
K: ndiyo/
F: bon: banaona kama bazungu banapenda paka bintu ya baz: ya: ya zamani/
K: ya zamani ndiyo/
F: banafanya nini? bon: bana: banafanya kintu sasa/ kiisha banaweka ma ...
K: banaweka macirages:
F: cirages:
K: eko inaonekana sawa ya zamani ...
F: [overlapping]... mafuta: hata banaingisha mu:
K: mu bulongo/
F: mu bulongo:
K: ndiyo/ ah/
F: hii kintu: shee tunapenda ile ile ...
K: ...bintu ya zamani/
F: [overlapping] bintu ya zamani: ni ya nguvu tu ya [claps] kupata/
K: ndiyo/ iko nguvu ya kupata: kama unatafuta humu Kolwezi/
F: mm/
K: iko nguvu kupata/ alafu kama tunapima kutembea fasi ya mbali: kwa sababu kuko mafasi ingine mi minajua/
F: mm/
K: kuko mafasi ingine mi minajua: kama tunakwenda ile bintu ya zamani: tutapata/ mais lakini kama tunatembea huku karibu hatutapata maneno: aba bantu yote beko karibu na bazungu:
F: mm/
K: bile bintu yabo yote banaisha kuuzisha/
F: ndiyo/
K: inafaa kwenda mbali mbali: mu migini ya mbali:
F: mara ingine kama unatembea: kama uko na kintu: she tunapenda/ kuuza/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm?
K: ndiyo/
F: ...?... maneno tuna: tuna: tunapenda paka peinture ya sasa: alafu: vile vile: bintu ya zamani/
K: ya zamani ndiyo/ bintu ya zamani iko muzuri/ binu ya zamani iko muzuri/ tena bintu ya zamani iko bei/
F: mm?
K: ndiyo/ [chuckle]
F: iko bei?
K: iko bei/ juu ya nini iko bei: bintu ya zamani? sababu ule muntu alifanyaka: anaisha kufa/
F: ah/
K: aah/
F: ah/
K: sasa: kama unapata ni: ni baati munene sana/ alafu hautapata ingine/
F: mm/
K: ni pale tunapenda bintu ya zamani: tunasema iko bei/
F: oui mais kama wee unaangaria: utaweza ku: kutuelezea/
K: alafu sawa mufano:
F: tusikilizane juu ya bei/ mm?
K: ndiyo bwana/
F: mm/
K: mufano sawa vile tunaikala huku Kolwezi: si nitapata/ kama kuko na namna ya kusema kutembea: kwenda mbali: ile tutapata/ ao kama tunasililizana asema bon: eh: Kanyemba minatafuta wende unitafute kintu kifulani: unanipatia Makuta: bon: mitaweza kwenda vile/ mais sina Makuta mingi ya kuweza kwenda mafasi/
F: mm: unawaza kama ina: inafaa Makuta ngapi? ya:
K: ça dépend ya ile fasi mitakwenda/
F: mm/ enfin: à peu pres/
K: [pauses] unatafuta zaidi sasa kintu gani ao kintu gani?
F: zanamu ao tshifwebe:
K: kifwebe:
F: mm/
K: ao ile bankishi/
F: mm: baki: bankishi/
K: maneno ile bankishi: minawaza fasi: sawasawa hii kipande yote hii:
F: mm/
K: njo bantu mingi banakwendaka/ mufano sawasawa minatafuta kwenda kutafuta hata fasi ya Zambia/ fasi ya Zambia: nitakwenda Mwinilunga: kupita Mwinilunga sasa/
F: Mwinilunga?
K: aah/ karibu ya frontière ya Angola:
F: mm/
K: na Zambia/ alafu mule mu kati kati mule bantu habendake: kule nitapata bintu ya zamani/
F: eeh/
K: ndiyo/
F: alafu: ku: ba: kwanza: eh? inafaa: unawaza inafaa Makuta ngapi?
K: ku namna ya kwenda?
F: mm/
K: ah ku namna ya: ya bei ya kuuza kule: haina nguvu zaidi/
F: mm/
K: lakini bei ya nguvu ni ile nitafanya ma ... ? ... madépenses ya kula:
F: mm/
K: eh? na ile ya: ya kurudia ku mashua: njo ile minaona kama itakuwa: sijue kama namna gani/
F: mm/
K: eheh/
F: bon: siku ingine tuta: tutasikilizana:
K: ndiyo/
F: na utaweza kwenda kutafuta kintu/
K: ndiyo/ ile ni kyepesi bwana/
F: mm/
K: ah/
F: bon: ça va/
32. And, as you see it, was it the Europeans who introduced painting as a profession to this country?
K: To our country?
F: Mm.
K: Yes. It was the Europeans who introduced painting as a profession. However, going back to the past, there where always artists here in our country.
F: There were?
K: Yes. There were artists (who worked) with wood.
F: With wood?
K: Yes. They were carving those – what do you call them? – human figures, right?
F: Statues[47].
K: Statues, yes. They carved ancestor statues.
F: Mm.
K: And bifwebe, called masks (in French).
F: Mm.
K: They were also artists. But painting as we do it was introduced by Europeans.
F: Mm.
K: (And talking) about artists, the concept of artist did exist in the past. [chuckle][48]

F:  So you regard those sculptors...
K: Yes.
F: ... how shall I say? You regard them as your ancestors?
K: Yes. Because they were people who thought the same way. When they moved to another place they, too, knew you were not going to want for money. Even a penny he’ll make something and get (money). They were my ancestors, yes.
F: But in your ethnic group, the Lunda, right?
K: Yes.
F: They don’t produce a lot of statuary.
K: They do.
F: Not just a few?
K: They do a few but obviously they did not really develop (in that direction). However, in the past what my ethnic group produced was masks. The danced...
F: Mm.
K: Wearing (lit. inside) masks, yes. And there were also these figurines I saw in museums, used as magic charms.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Mm. Mm. Do they still make them?
K: Yes, they do. But nowadays people are modern, many don’t know (how to make them) anymore.
F: Mm.
K: Still, we could go to certain places, villages where there are old people who make them.
F: I often see people going around with statues for sale, right?
K: Yes.
F: Although, in my view, those are souvenirs for Europeans, right? [claps]
K: Statues ...?....
F: [overlapping] ... that were made to look like old statues but they are junk. [claps] Mm? They also make masks.
K: Yes.
F: Fine. (They do this) because they notice that Europeans only like stuff that is old.
K: That is old, yes.
F: What is it they do? They make an object that is new. Then they put...
K: The put on shoe polish.
F: Shoe polish.
K: Then it looks as if it was old...
F: [overlapping] ... [they use] oil, even put (the object) into...
K: Into the ground.
F: In the ground.
K: Yes, well.
F: What we like are ...
K: ...objects that are old.
F: [overlapping] Objects that are old are very hard [claps] to come by.
K: Yes. They are hard to get if you are looking for them here in Kolwezi.
F: Mm.
K: They are hard to get. But we could try and go to remote places. Because I know certain places.
F: Mm.
K: There are some places I know, if we go there, we’ll get old objects. But going around near this place we are not going to get anything. Those people live close to Europeans.
F: Mm.
K: They sold their stuff long ago.
F: Yes.
K: You have to travel far away, to remote villages.
F: Maybe when you travel again you find something we like to buy.
K: Yes.
F: Mm?
K: Yes.
F: ...?... because we love contemporary painting but also old things.
K: Old things, yes. Old things are beautiful. Old things are beautiful. Old things are also expensive.
F: Mm?
K: Yes. [chuckle]
F: They are expensive?
K: They are expensive. Why are old things expensive? Because the person who made them is no longer alive.
F: Ah.
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
K: Now, to find one you have to be really lucky. But you won’t find another.
F: Mm.
K: That is the point, that is why we love old things and say they are expensive.
F: Yes. Still, if you look around you can tell us.
K: But, for example...
F: We can agree about the price. Mm?
K: Yes, bwana.
F: Mm.
K: As long as we are staying like here in Kolwezi I won’t find anything. If you could travel farther away we’ll find some. Or if we came to an agreement saying, alright, Kanyemba, I’d like you to go and find a certain object for me. You give me money and then I’ll be able to go. I don’t have much money to travel to places.
F: Mm. How much do you think is needed?
K: That depends on the place I go.
F: Mm. Well, more or less.
K: [pauses] What kind of thing are you really looking for?
F: A statue or a mask.
K: A mask.
F: Mm.
K: Or those ancestor statues.
F: Mm. Ancestor statures.
K: Because, as regards these ancestor statues, I can think of a place. Take all the regions around here.
F: Mm.
K: A lot of people are going around (looking for stuff). I would want to go to look around even in some place in Zambia, for instance. In Zambia, I would go to Mwinilunga, beyond Mwinilunga.
F: Mwinilunga?
K: Yes, close to the border between Angola...
F: Mm.
K: ...and Zambia. There is a place people don’t often go to, there I would find old things.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: But first, how much money do you think you need?
K: To be able to go there?
F: Mm.
K: Ah, to buy there the price is not much of a problem.
F: Mm.
K: However, it will cost a lot to meet the living expenses.
F: Mm.
K: You understand? And the return trip by train. That, I think, will be (expensive), I don’t know how this works out.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Alright. some other day, we’ll come to an agreement.
K: Yes.
F: And you can go looking for something.
K: This can be done easily, bwana.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Fine. Alright then.[49]
33. K: na ile mawazo niliwaza ya kusema asema mitaondoka siku bifulani: ni juu ya nini? ni paka namna ya kuikala hivi: bwana: kuikala paka hivi na famille munene: unatumika bintu: habauze: utatumika kintu: pahali ya kupata Likuta: unasikia asema bon: un Zaïre/ nilipita saa ingine: nilikwenda kwa ule professeur/
F: mm/
K: ule professeur tulionaka naye ku ville aliniambia bon: twende kwangu/ ni kweli tulibeba tulikwenda kwake/ aliuza tableau munene sawa hivi ya ndeke/
F: mm/
K: bon/ sasa ile saa ya mi kutoka kwake: nilikutania na: na muzungu mwengine/ na ule muzungu aliniita asema: kuya kwangu/ minafika bwana minatosha tableau sawa hivi ananiambia asema nitakupa un Zaïre/ minasikia karibu na kulia/ minasema angaria bwana: minafanya kazi/
F: mm/
K: iko kazi minafanya/ tena minawaza mbele ya kufanya kintu vile/ kwanza cadrement tu inyewe ile cadrement ile/ unajua: iko bei gani? ts/ sasa ile un Zaïre: ts: bwana minasikia karibu machozi kutoka/ [laughs]/ minasema bwana: merci/ pahali ya kamata un Zaïre: iko muzuri nitaweka ku nyumba: tutaikala paka vile haina mambo hapana/ ni ile sasa tu: tunafanya mawazo ya kusema bon utakwenda ku fulani: utakwenda ku fulani:
F: sawa ku nyumba yako unabakia na ngapi?
K: mu nyumba yangu sasa?
F: mm/
K: minawaza munabakia [pauses] minabakia mbili/
F: mbili/
K: ndiyo munabakia mbili/ hapana: tatu/
F: tatu/
K: eeh/ maneno kulikuwa moya ilikuwa ya feu de brousse:
F: mm/
K: alafu niliona ile penti: haikuwa: nitafuta kuya naye/ alafu iliangaria haikutoka muzuri kabisa: roho yangu haikupendayo/
F: mm/
K: minasema hapana: sawa iko mubaya/ iko: nitaacha ile/ nitafanya ingine/ ni ile inakuwa sawasawa ya tatu/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
33. K: About that idea I had to leave (this country) some day. Why? It’s the situation we are in, bwana, living as we do with a large family. You paint things but people don’t buy. You may work to produce something and, instead of making a little money, what you get to hear is, fine, (I give you) one Zaire. The other day I went to this professor.
F: Mm.
K: This professor and I saw each other in town and he told me let’s go to my place. We actually took paintings along and he bought one, a large one with birds.
F: Mm.
K: Fine. Now when I left his place I met another European and this one also called me, saying, let’s go to my place. When I arrived, bwana, and took out a painting like this he told me I’ll give you one Zaire. I felt close to crying. I said, look, bwana, I work.
F: Mm.
K: It’s the work I do. Not only that, I think before I make a thing like that. To begin with the frame. Do you know how much a frame costs? Well, this (offer of) one Zaire, bwana,  had me close to tears. [laughs] I said, thanks bwana. Rather than taking one Zaire I prefer to keep it at home. Let’s leave it at that, it doesn’t matter. Those are the moments when one thinks, alright, you should go elsewhere.
F: How many (paintings) to keep at home?
K: In my house, right now?
F: Mm.
K: I think there are [pauses] there are two.
F: Two.
K: Yes, I there are two. No, three.
F: Three.
K: Yes. There was one that should have been a bush fire.
F: Mm.
K: But then I saw that this painting was not – I want to keep it because the way it looked it did not really after my heart’s liking.
F: Mm.
K: I told myself, no, the way it is it is bad. I am going to leave it and do another one. That would be the third one (I mentioned).
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
34. F: bon: uta: utapata Makuta kiloko:
K: aksanti/
F: na: utaweza kuendelea kiloko na:
K: aksanti bwana/
F: sasa hii: minapenda zaidi kuona: ni hii style: eh?
K: ya bintu ya mbali?
F: eeh/
K: ndiyo/
F: hata kama uko nawaza: hata wazo fulani: eh? utafanyaka/
K: muzuri/
F: mm?
K: muzuri/
F: eh?
K: mm/
F: usiwaze kama: mi niko muzungu: minatafuta paka style/ no no/ inafaa sasa: inafaa sasa kama utatumika zaidi mawazo yako/
K: sawa vile nafanya/
F: mm? sawa vile una: uko na:
K: nawaza/
F: mawazo yako:
K: ndiyo/
F: zaidi zaidi/ pasipo kuwaza: nitauzisha: ao wala/
K: ndiyo ndiyo/
F: bon/ mm?
K: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
F: mm?
K: ndiyo/
K: unanisikia?
K: minasikia/ minasikia/
F: mm?
K: aksanti/
F: kumbe unaona sasa adresse yangu: shee tuta: tutabakia kufika mu le huit Juillet/
K: ndiyo/
F: na huit Juillet:
K: ndiyo/
F: kiisha nitapashwa kurudia: Lubumbashi/
K: ku Lubumbashi/
F: mm?
K: ni wazi/
F: na nitabakia mu Lubumbashi mi: miaka mbili:
K: ndiyo/
F: mu kazi ya professeur/ mm?
K: ndiyo/
F: bon tutaona: kama tutaendelea muzuri/ sijue kama tutaweza kukusaidia/
K: aksanti/
F: eh: na: bon ça va/
K: aksanti/
F: nitaita bibi yangu/ alienda wapi?
34. F: Alright. You’ll get a little money.
K: Thanks.
F: With that you will be able to go on for a while.
K: Thank you, bwana.
F: What I would like to see above all is something in this style, right?
K: Things (to be seen) from a distance?
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: But whatever you think of, any idea you have, right? You should do it.
K: Fine.
F: Mm?
K: Fine.
F: You understand?
K: Mm.
F: Don’t think that, me being a European, I only look for style. No, no. What you should do now is really work out your ideas.
K: As I have been doing.
F: Mm? The way you...
K: ...I think.
F: (Following) your ideas.
K: Yes.
F: Nothing but that, without giving it a thought whether you are going to sell or whatever.
K: Yes, yes.
F: Fine. Mm?
K: Yes, yes.
F: Mm?
K: Yes.
F: You understand?
K: I understand. I understand?
F: Mm?
K: Thanks.
F: So, now you have my address. We’ll stay here until July 8.
K: Yes.
F: Until July 8.
K: Yes.
F: Then I’ll have to go back to Lubumbashi.
K: To Lubumbashi.
F: Mm?
K: It’s clear.
F: And I’ll be staying in Lubumbashi for two years.
K: Yes.
F: Doing my job as professor. Mm?
K: Yes.
F: Well, we’ll see if things go well, I don’t know, we may be able to help you.
K: Thanks.
F: Yes. Alright, that’s it.
K: Thanks.
F: I am going to call my wife. Where did she go?

Notes

[1] I have not been able to trace the name. It seems to be in Lingala, salisana meaning “to help each other.” Nor can I explain why Kanyemba brings up this group when I ask him about the Jamaa except by associating it with another religious group. The military uniform could point to the Salvation Army.
[2] Kanyemba says ashili, which could be his pronunciation of asili, beginning, principle – perhaps with the meaning of mark or trade mark.
[3] I usually translate muzungu as European (to avoid putting emphasis on race). When I first transcribed and translated part of this conversation in the seventies, I presented the person Kanyemba talks about as a white male. Later, in a paper on ethnographic misunderstanding, it turned out that this member of the Bapostolo was Bennetta Jules-Rosette, an African-American anthropologist who joined the movement when she did her PhD research on it (see Jules-Rosette 1975 and Fabian 1995, with an excerpt from this conversation.
[4] We were a little off here. The founder of the Bapostolo was John Maranke.
[5] Bwana is current enough in English to be left untranslated, especially in this context where Victor, our helper (boy in local parlance) addresses me. It is a different matter when the term is used by Kanyemba yo address me (see below). “Sir” would be the obvious gloss – except that I sense a shade of meaning somewhere in between merely formal and somewhat formal and respectful (but not ingratiating, for which I find no signs elsewhere in this conversation). As far as I remember without checking, other interlocutors rarely addressed me as bwana (or monsieur).
[6] With the ehm at the beginning Kanyemba signals that he is about to embark on a longer statement about religious matters, which was not what had come together to talk about. This explains, though does not excuse, the way I cut him off and returned, as it were, to the beginning by asking him for his full name.
[7] Here and later again (paragraph 5) Kanyemba seems to feel a need to thank me for information that came somehow unexpected.
[8] This is an attempt to translate banatutokana. Toka can mean to leave, come out or get out, but is not a transitive verb.
[9] He meant to say “Pascal.” Throughout this paragagraph there is some confusion between two prominent Franciscan missionaries,  Pascal Ceuterick (pastor at the main parish of Kolwezi) and Placide Tempels, the founder of the Jamaa movement.
[10] The terms kucheza (vb.) and muchezo (n.) have many meanings (a problem of translation that shows up in the remainder of this passage): Apart from to play, as opposed to work, the term can also signify to dance, to perform (theatrical plays of sketches), to play games, to play instruments (other than drums), and to engage in sexual play.
[11] According to other sources this could be Kanyemba’s pronunciation of Jeux coquets (sometimes written JéKoKé or Jécoké), a mixed form of comical entertainment (sketches, music, dance) that was popular in the years before Independence. As I recall, I first heard the term from Mufwankolo, famed founder of a troupe of popular actors (Fabian 1996). It also turned up in a conversation with Kisimba about Swahili in Katanga, see par. 8 of that text in Archives of Popular Swahili, http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/vol11/swahiliremembered2.html
According to him it is an acronym for Jeunes Comiques de Kenia (young comedians from Kenia township in Lubumbashi). When Kanyemba speculates above that Jeux coquets came from Zambia he may confuse this with malinga, an earlier fashion of (ball room) dancing that came from there (see about this the Vocabulaire in Archives of Popular Swahili: http://www2.fmg.uva.nl/lpca/aps/vol4/vocabulaireshabaswahili.html
[12] Here Kanyemba seems to approach the French pronunciation (or, at any rate, the one that was forming in my mind).
[13] The preceding exchange reflects the complexity of urban geography and the many changes over time in the terminology. Commune, was an administrative term (later replaced by zone) usually applied to what in colonial times were centres extra-coutumiers, government-controlled townships. The town itself, ville, was reserved to Non-Africans (and their African domestic personnel). At the time of our conversation, the central town, no longer off-limits to Africans who could afford to live there, was also called a commune.
[14] Two reasons explain this seemingly aimless back-and-forth. On the side of Kanyemba it was l/r alternance which is quite common in local Swahili, on my side it is unstated knowledge. Both, a Marcel Pire and a Rudy Pillen were prominent Belgian painters in Lubumbashi (they and examples of their work can easily be found on the Internet). At about the time of our conversation I met Pillen on several social occasions and assumed that he must be the one Kanyemba referred to as “Pille” (pronounce in two syllables).
[15]This was Marcel Pire (1913-1981), a well known Belgian painter.
[16] Also written Kabala; I opt for the orthography used in early publications.
[17] Kanyemba says kilole, finger, which I take as a slip of the tongue; he meant to say pinceau, brush.
[18] I was thinking of  thinking of Victor Turner, famous for his work among the Ndembu of Zambia.
[19] Kanyemba says présent, lit. present. This is the usual male response to being addressed by one’s name (as in a military or school roll-call; the female response is abé) as well as request to repeat a question.
[20] I say na nini, should have been na nani. In the following the directions Kanyemba gives (partly with gestures) are impossible to translate accurately. And, in this case, I cannot reconstruct our exchange from memory.
[21] At Kasumbalesa, the main border post between the Congo and Zambia, the Japanese-owned SODIMIZA mined copper and other metals between 1967 and 1987.
[22] I throw in sermali, the local Swahili term; it is seramala in ECS.
[23] Kanyemba says kaplosh, which must be the local version of French capelage, rigging, in this case of the roof-truss.
[24] There was a Swedish contingent among the UN troops in Katanga.
[25] I am repeating the Swahili term to myself either because I did not know the word at the time (which is not likely) or because I want to be sure of its exact meaning.
[26] He says mitumbo (the local French term is pirogue), mtumbwi in ECS.
[27] “Feel” is what I feel he means. Kanyemba says nasikia, which could equally well be translated as “I hear,” or “I sense.”
[28] Kanyemba use French terms, décoration and tableau décoré. In art-talk the latter would be “decorative” rather than decorated.
[29] Here and in the remainder of the paragraph I am teasing Kanyemba for his use of “academic” terminology. His chuckle shows that he is aware of that (and that the joke is not on him but on fancy words).
[30] Actually I had not meant “seeing” in the literal sense (and peinture can be both, the activity and the object). This literal meaning seems to be implied in Kanyemba’s question and in my answer but the following shows that he had caught my intention.
[31] Kanyemba says michezo, lit. plays, dances, but also “playing around.” German Spielerei would be perfect but I am unable to come up with a single term in English.
[32] The term I use is mubiti, uncooked (as of food stuff), which Kanyemba finds amusing.
[33] The term is nyama, animal(s), meat; the picture shows antelopes.
[34] I said yako, your – a mistake.
[35] The word I hear is something like cadre, frame.
[36] Kanyemba’s chuckle and the abrupt change of topic in my following question show we both realized that we had come to a dead end.
[37] Kanyemba had heard me say katana, cut each other, instead of kutana. meet each other.
[38] By mistake I said uzisha, sell, instead of uza, buy.
[39] That was the older (and at the time more current?) name for railroad workers’ settlement in Lubumbashi.
[40] Meaning, with cheating the artists.
[41] Could also be translated as payment in kind. The term current in Katanga is posho, probably from English portion. The mining company, for instance, paid their workers wages plus a posho, payment in kind (mostly groceries that were not available on the local market).
[42] The Cercle Manika was the social center in Kolwezi. It was sponsored by the mining company, originally for their expatriate personnel.
[43] Meaning, work like his own.
[44] In this case the term cité refers to a part of town formerly reserved for Africans who were not employed by the mining company.
[45] I say mustomari – no idea where I got this from, no such term exists. Perhaps I confused what I wanted to say, mistari, lines, with musomari, the local term for nail(s).
[46] Another confusion on my part between mbele, before, in front of, and mbali, far, from a distance.
[47] The term I use is nkisi, a Bantu word, widely employed by art historians and museologists, for all sorts of carved statues, “fetishes” in older parlance. The latter would be marked with a mi- plural prefix (the class of trees and of “magic” objects and spirits). Notice that Kanyemba says bankisi, making it statues of people, ancestor statues).
[48] I suspect that the chuckle here is a comment on his creative use of the abstract prefix (b)u in “buartiste...bulikuwako.”
[49] In this paragraph we started out with an important point, Kanyemba’s sense of continuity between contemporary work and traditional art. But then, sensing an interest in “old things” on my part, our exchange became somewhat embarrassing, as if we were about to work out a scheme for trafficking art. Nothing came of it nor have I made attempts earlier or later to collect objects.

References

Fabian, Johannes . (1995). On Ethnographic Misunderstanding and the Perils of Context. American Anthropologist 97: 1-10.
Jules-Rosette, Bennetta. (1975). African Apostles : Ritual and Conversion in the Church of John Maranke. Ithaca: Cornell University Press.


 

[Introduction]

[Text One]

[Text Two]

[Text Three]

[Text Four]

[Text Five]

[Text Six]

[Text Seven]

[Text Eight]

[Text Nine]

[LPCA Home Page]


© Johannes Fabian
The URL of this page is: http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/vol12/katangagenrepainting1.html
Deposited at APS: 6 October 2009
Updated: 24 December 2009 (hyperlinks to Texts 4-9 added)