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ISSN: 1570-0178

Volume 10, Issue 6 (8 October 2008)



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Language and Labor
Conversations about work, language, and life

transcribed, translated, and commented by

Johannes Fabian

University of Amsterdam


e-mail:
fabian@pscw.uva.nl

address:
Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology
University of Amsterdam
Oudezijds Achterburgwal 185
1012 DK Amsterdam
The Netherlands


 

Introduction

Text One

Text Two

Text Three

Text Four

Text Five

 

 

Text Five

Text Five, recorded March 23, 1973 with Mujinga Mbuyi wa Kalongo, known as Balimuacha, an actress and presenter on radio and television, at my residence in Lubumbashi.


 

Swahili text and English translation

1. S: ...ni kusema: ah: minataka kusumbulia na wee sawa vile nilisumbulia na wantu wengine:
O: ndiyo/
S: juu ya mawazo yabo ya: ya kazi/ kwanza mara ingine juu ya: ya maisha yabo/ mm?
O: [overlapping] mi sisikie/
S: sawa vile bana: baingia kazi: banaingia kazi namna gani: banaendelea mu kazi:
O: mm/
S: mm?
O: mm: mm/
S: na: minaisha kusumbulia na ma: na: na mwanamuke mwengi/
O: mm.
S: alafu: na wana: wanaume/ alafu mwanamuke bado/
O: bado/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: sasa mwanamuke:
O: sasa mbele ni miye/
S: ana: sasa ana: anaona gani: kazi namna gani/ mm?
O: mm/
S: si wee: si njo: enfin: inaachana na sketch tulifanya/
O: mm/ hapana ile: ni mawazo ya muntu: eeh/
S: [overlapping] ni yako: ni yako/
O: sasa masimulio yetu tutasimulia: ni juu nikuonyeshe: ginsi nilianza kazi? ao niko: nikuelezee juu ya maisha yangu/ ile unataka/
S: tuanze na maisha: na maisha: alafu maisha: sawa vile ulifanya kazi eh?
O: mm/
S: bon/ kwa: kwa utoto: ha?
O: mm/
S: sawa vile ulikuwa mutoto/
O: mm/
S: ulitumika?
O: ndiyo/ minaanza: nilianza: nilitoka ku masomo: niko natumika/ ...?...
S: mm/ kutoka ku masomo?
O: eeh/ mbele nilitumika: eh [hesitates]: mi njo: ni: ni: nilitumika mbele: ku magazin: ya Aladeff/
S: ya Aladeff?
O: eeh/
S: kule ku...
O: ku nani? ...?... mm: Aladeff: nawaza sasa iko kwa: ni famille moya ya Aladeff/
S: ndiyo/
O: hii nawaza: eko ku: ...?... hapa sasa/
S: ah bon/
O: eeh/
S: mane: maneno minaona: magazin moya...
O: njo banaandika Aladeff/
S: ndiyo/
O: ile fasi ya signal/
S: ahah/
O: njo fasi nalitumika mbele/ minatu...
S: kama ulifika humu?
O: minafika...
S: kutoka Ruwe: kutoka...
O: eh: minafika humu: minafika humu: niliowelewa/
S: ah bon/
O: eeh/
S: mm/ hii wakati...
O: eeh/
S: ...mu cinquante...
O: mm/ niliowelewa: ilikuwa mu: mu cinquante neuf/
S: mu cinquante neuf/
O: eeh/ minaowelewa: sikuwa na bantu ya kuikala ku bukweli/ bwana alianzia njia ya potopoto: kulala fasi ingine: chakula ilikuwa matata: kiisha: bazazi yake ya bwana balinirudisha kwetu/ ku Kolwezi/
S: mm/
O: kiisha: kurudia kwetu: nilikuya: juu ya kusema banitosha ku buku: eh? nitafanya
divorce/
S: c’est ça/
1. S: ...I would like to have a conversation with you as I had with other people.
O: Yes.
S: About their thoughts concerning work, sometimes talking first about their lives, mm?
O: [overlapping] I don’t understand.
S: About how they got their jobs and how they got ahead at work.
O: Mm.
S: Mm?
O: Mm, mm.
S: Now, I have talked with many men.1
O: Mm.
S: But with men (or rather) with women not yet.
O: Not yet.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: Now (talking) about a woman...
O: Now I am first.
S: ... how does she see work. Mm?
O: Mm.
S: This is not like the sketch we did.2
O: Mm. No, this is about the thoughts a person has, (I understand).
S: [overlapping] Yours. Yours.
O: Now, the conversation we are going to have, is it about explaining to you how I started work? Or should I give you (the story of) my life. It’s as you wish.
S: Let’s start with your life but such that we pay attention to the work you did, right?
O: Mm.
S: Fine. (Can we start) with you childhood?
O: Mm.
S: How it was when you were quite young (lit. a child).
O: Mm.
S: Did you work?
O: Yes, as soon a I left school I began to work. ...?...
S: Mm, when you left school?
O: Yes. First I worked, let’s see [hesitates], I worked first in the shop of Aladeff.
S: Aladeff’s?
O: Yes.
S: Over there in...
O: Where were they again...?... Mm. At Aladeff’s. I think they are still there, the Aladeff family.
S: Yes.
O: I think it is in ...?... right now.
S: I see.
O: Yes.
S: Because I saw a shop...
O: With the sign “Aladeff.”
S: Yes.
O: In the place where the signal is.3
S: I see.
O: That’s the place where I worked first. I worked...
S: When you came here (to Lubumbashi)?
O: I came here...
S: From Ruwe, from...
O: Yes, I came here. I came here and got married.
S: I see.
O: Yes.
S: Mm. This was at the time...
O: Yes.
S:... in the fifties...
O: Mm. I got married. It was in fifty-nine.
S: In fifty-nine.
O: Yes. I got married but I was not among the (kind of) people with whom a marriage would have lasted.4 My husband took to bad ways, he slept around, it was trouble to get food, and in the end my husband’s parents sent me back home, to Kolwezi.5
S: Mm.
O: When I got back home I told myself, they threw me out, right? I am going to get divorced.
S: That’s it.
2. O: pale tunasema tunafanya divorce: njo minaangaria minasema hapana/ sawa vile nilifunda masomo yangu: mi siwezi kuikala bule/ kumbe acha nitafute: kazi/
S: mm/
O: njo minakwenda...
S: na: masomo gani uli: uli...
O: nilifanya formation familiale/
S: ah bon/ ku foyer social...
O: ...social ya Kolwezi/
S: c’est ça/ kushona:
O: eeh/
S: kupiga chakula:
O: chakula: eeh/
S: kuchunga batoto:
O: batoto: bintu ya namna ile/
S: mm/
O: nilifunda: ku Ruwe: sixième primaire: minaisha: njo minakuya: ku Kolwezi/ ile fasi ya: ya: baDemoiselles/ nilikuwa na: demoiselle Yvette: eh? kama minatafuta entrée ya kuingia ku..
S: hii mina: minajua/
O: eeh/ ile internat iko pale: shee njo ba kwanza ya kufungula ile internat/
S: ah bon/
O: formation familiale/ njo fasi nalifunda masomo yangu/
S: eyo/
2. O: When we said let’s get divorced I took a look (at things) and told myself, no way, I went to school, I can’t just stay around doing nothing. Therefore, I should look for work.
S: Mm.
O: So I set about it...
S: What kind of school did you...
O: I did formation familiale.6
S: I see. At the community center7...
O: ...of Kolwezi.
S: That’s it. Sewing.
O: Yes.
S: Preparing a meal.
O: A meal, yes.
S: Taking care of children.
O: Children, things of that sort.
S: Mm.
O: I had gone to school at Ruwe where I finished sixth grade elementary. Then I came to Kolwezi, to the place of the Demoiselles.8 I had to do with Mlle Yvette, right? When I sought to get into...
S: I know the place.
O: Right, into the boarding school there. We were the first when that school opened.
S: I see.
O: Formation familiale, that was the place were I did my studies.
S: I see.9
3. O: eeh/ kiisha yake: pale niliona minafunda masomo yangu: nilisema siwezi kuikala bule/ muntu moya alikuwa kuniambia asema: magazin yetu banatafuta: ile wakati nalikuwa na dix sept ans/
S: mm/
O: mm/ minasema niko natafuta na demoiselle moya wa kuweza kutumika/ minasema ni muzuri: kuliko kuikala hivi: kumbe: acha: nitumike/ minakwenda kule: minaanza kazi/ ku comptoir: pamoja na Aladeff: niko nauzisha manguo/
S: ku: kuuzisha manguo/
O: ndiyo/ kuuzisha manguo: kiisha nalitumika kule wee: mu soixante: pale ile matata inakuya/
S: mm/
O: Aladeff anafunga magazin: anakwenda: ku Afrique du Sud/ minasema: niliisha kuzobelea kazi/ mi moya: minakwenda kusoliciter ku PEK/ magazin PEK/
S: c’est ça/
O: eeh/ naonyesha buku yangu ile nalitumika ku Aladeff: bananiitika/ na nilikuwa: bila kusema wongo: mwanamuke wa kwanza nalitumika mu magazin mukubwa/
S: ya humu?
O: ya humu Lubumbashi/
S: Lubumbashi/
O: eeh/ minakamata kazi ya ku PEK/ minafanya examen kule ya calcul: minaweza: balinipatia rayon yangu/
S: mm/
O: ya manguo: ya mamètre/ kuuzisha mamètre: bintu yote: na yote yote ya manguo/ nilitumika kule: nilitumika kule: kiisha yake: paka mule mu soixante: kufika mwezi wa kumi na moja: ile wakati: balifanya: gouvernement ya Katanga/
S: c’est ça/
3. O: Right. After that, seeing that I had had my training, I told myself, I cannot stay around doing nothing. Someone told me, in our shop they are looking for (personnel). At that time I was seventeen.
S: Mm.
O: Mm. I said I am (really) looking for a demoiselle I could work for.10 Then I told myself, alright, instead of just going on like this I am going to work. I went there and began to work in the shop with Aladeff, selling clothes.
S: Selling clothes.
O: Yes. Selling clothes. Then I worked there for a time until the troubles (around Independence) came in 1960.
S: Mm.
O: Aladeff closed his shop and went to South Africa. I told myself, I have gotten used to working. By myself I went to apply to PEK, the PEK department store.
S: That’s it.
O: Yes. I showed them my “book”11 from the time when I worked at Aladeff’s and they took me. And, without lying to you, I was the first (African) woman to work in a large store.
S: Was this here?
O: Here in Lubumbashi.
S: Lubumbashi.
O: Yes. So I took a job at the PEK. There I took a math exam, passed it, and they gave me my own department.
S: Mm.
O: Cloth by the meter. Selling cloth by the meter, actually everything in the cloth (department). I went on working there until 1960, in November, when they set up the government of Katanga.
S: That’s it.
4. O: baliisha kufanya gouvernement ya Katanga: balitafuta: batoto banamuke benye kuyua mukanda: juu ya kutumika speakerine: ku radio/
S: speakerine/ c’est ça/
O: eh/ miye njo nilitoka: naomba licencié/ nilienda kuuliza mushahara ya ku radio: na ku PEK niliona: ile ya radio: ilinipenpendeza/ minakuya minatoka kazi: ku: PEK/
S: ahah/
O: mu soixante et un: sasa: minaingia: eh mu soixante: mwezi wa kumi na moja: minaingia ku PEK/
S: ya ku ra...
O: eh: minaingia ku radio/
S: ulikuwa ki: kijana tu/
O: eeh: niliingia sasa pale minakuwa minawaza...
S: soixante et un?
O: ah: sikukawe/ nilifanya paka mwaka moya ku: ku PEK/
S: ahah/
O: ku Aladeff minafanya mwezi sita nawaza: matata inatokia: ya ku PEK minafanya karibu moya: nilikuwa na dix huit: dix neuf/
S: eeh/
O: kuisha kufanya vingt hapana/
S: eyo/
O: mm/ ile wakati minakuwa minaisha kuzala mutoto moja/ maneno nilitoka ku bukweli: minazala mutoto: moja/
S: mm/
O: ile mutoto yangu ya mbele/ nilimuzala: mu soixante/
S: mm/
4. After they set up the government of Katanga they were looking for literate young women to work as announcers12 at the radio.
S: As announcers, right.
O: Yes, so I left, I asked to be dismissed. I had gone to inquiry about the salary at the radio station. Back at PEK I realized that I liked (the work) at the radio station. So I gave up my job at PEK.
S: I see.
O: In sixty-one, or rather in November ’60 I got into PEK.
S: (You mean) the ra...
O: Yes, I got into the radio.
S: You were still quite young.
O: Yes, when I started there I think I was...
S: In sixty-one?
O: Well, I didn’t stay for long. I only did one year at PEK.
S: I see.
O: At Aladeff’s I did six months, I think, then the troubles started. At PEK I did close to one year, I was eighteen, nineteen.
S: Yes.
O: I had not turned twenty yet.
S: I see.
O: Mm. At that time I had one child. Because I had left the marriage and given birth to a child.
S: Mm.
O: This first child of mine. I had it in sixty.
S: Mm.
5. O: eh/ kiisha: minaingia kazi/ ku radio: ya speakerine/ kule ku radio: mpaka sasa: njo kule minatumika weee: ku speakage: sawa vile speakerine:
S: mm/
O: kufika mu soixante trois: pale sécession inaisha:
S: mm/
O: balinirudisha: si bote tulitumika mu ku radio ya Katanga: ile wakati: bantu wa Kinshasa banakuya: banasema hatuwezi kutumika maneno: shee tulitumika wakati ya sécession/
S: mm/
O: njo banaturudisha: ku: Fonction Publique/
S: c’est ça...
O: ...?...
S: na: na hii wakati muli: wee ulifanya kazi ya speakerine: mulisema: lugha gani? Swahili?
O: nilisema Swahili na Français/
S: Français vilevile/
O: kwa anon: des annonces na des annonces/
S: ah oui/
O: eeh/ bon/ kiisha baliturudisha ku: ku Fonction Publique/ Fonction Publique aliangaria: hatuna na kosa: ni paka vile sécession inaisha: ilikuwa ya muntu mumoya: aliturudischa tena mu disposition ya Information Ecrite/
S: Information Ecrite:
O: écrite: eeh/ maneno ile wakati: tulikabula/ radio ilidépendre ku gouvernement central: information ya écrite: tulidépendre ku province/
S: ah bon/
O: sheye tulifanya: tulikuwa na journal/ kule ku: ku: nani: ku information ya écrite: journal Uhaki/
S: Uhaki?
O: mm/
S: mm/
5. O: Right, so I started work at the radio, as an announcer. To this day I have been working as an announcer there at the radio, it has been a long time.
S: Mm.
O: So we came to sixty-three, that was when the secession (of Katanga) ended.
S: Mm.
O: They sent me back -- all of us who had worked at radio Katanga -- when the people from Kinshasa came, telling us that we could not go on working because we had worked during the secession.
S: Mm.
O: So they sent us back to the Fonction Publique (civil service).
S: That’s it.
O: ...?...
S: And when you worked as an announcer, what was the language you spoke? Swahili?
O: I spoke Swahili and French.
S: French also.O: For announcements and commercials.
S: Ah, yes.
O: Right. Fine. After they had sent us back there, Fonction Publique looked (at our case and decided) that we were not to be faulted. The secession that had come to an end was (the work) of a single person. So they sent us back, putting us at the disposal of
(the department of) Information Ecrite (written information).
S: Information Ecrite.
O: Ecrite, yes. Because at that time we were reorganized. The radio depended on the Central Government, at Information Ecrite we depended on the province.
S: I see.
O: What we did, we had a newspaper there at Information Ecrite, called Uhaki (Justice).
S: Uhaki?
O: Mm.
S: Mm.
6. O: sasa: njo Fonction Publique alitutuma na undulisha ku information ya écrite: minatumiku ku éducation de la masse/
S: mm/
O: kule ku journal/ kule ku journal nilikamata:
S: tumu: tumika kazi gani? ya:
O: nilikuwa: na programme ya baraza ya bibi/
S: uliandika na: mu journal?
O: ni kufanya ma: maarticles:
S: oui/
O: concernant banamuke:
S: mu Swahili?
O: wanawake: mu Swahili/
S: mm/
O: mm/ vile mambo iko napita: banamuke: tulikuwa madivorcées: hivi na hivi: ile yote inaangaria wanawake na watoto:
S: mm/
O: na mambo ya nyumba: nilitumika pamoya na Mufwankolo/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: yee alikuwa vilevile?
O: yee alikuwa vilevile: shee: shee bote tulitumika ku radio: banatuweka ya Fonction Publique: kiisha banaturudisha ku: eh: information ya écrite:
S: mm/
O: tunatumika ku journal/ tunatumika ku journal weee: kufika mu soixante six: journal banasema budget hainako/ tena: journal:
S: budget hainako?
O: ya kuuza mapapiers:
S: ndiyo/
O: na bintu bingine: bana: tulikuwa: kulikuwa madeni: kule ku Kafubu: balikuwa ni imprimer: na hakukuwa namna ya kulipa tena: balisema gouvernement yote hanakulipa: banafunga journal/
S: mm/
6. So then Fonction Publique had us placed at Information Ecrite. There I worked (in the department/program of) mass education.
S: Mm.
O: At the newspaper. At the paper I took over...
S: What was your job?
O: I had a program, Baraza ya Bibi.13
S: Did you write in the paper?
O: It was articles.
S: Yes.
O: Of interest to women.
S: In Swahili?
O: (For) women, in Swahili.
S: Mm.
O: Mm. About things that happened to women when we got divorced, this and that, everything concerning women and children.
S: Mm.
O: And matters having to do with making a home. I worked together with Mufwankolo.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: He was there, too?
O: He was also there, all of us who had worked for the radio, they placed us at Fonction Publique and then made us go back to Information Ecrite.
S: Mm.
O: So we worked at the paper for quite a while until, in sixty-six, they said at the paper that there was no longer a budget.
S: There was no budget?
O: To buy paper.
S: Yes.
O: And other things. We had debts at Kafubu,14 they were the ones who did the printing. We could not pay and we were told that the government would not pay either. So they closed the paper.
S: Mm.
7. O: nabakia sasa paka kule ku information écrite: sasa ku éducation de la masse/
S: mm/
O: ku éducation de la masse nilifanya nini? tu nilikuwa: dactylographe/
S: mm/
O: eh/ minaandika mu kuandika ku mashini: maneno nilijua mashini à tapper: nilianza ku: tumika mu journal/ maarticles yangu mi mwenyewe...
S: wee uli: uliandika/
O: ku mashini/ kiisha yake nilikuwa ku éducation de la masse: niliseoccuper ya: ile éducation de la masse tulikuwa na film/ ni: eh: ni service inaangaria film: kwenda kufanya matournées: ku: ku mapori/
S: ah bon/
O: eeh/ minaanza mbele ku: ku ville:
S: mm/
O: mazones yote kama inaisha: tunakwenda sasa ni inje ya ville de Lubumbashi/ pale traverse ilikuwa moja tu: tuna: bote balidépendre paka huku: tulienda: Likasi: paka siye na Kolwezi/
S: mm/
O: mm/ sasa nilikuwa namna gani? nilikuwa animatrice/ ile mafilms yote ilikuwa: ya Français/
S: mm/
O: sasa kama tunakwenda fasi ya pori: ile bantu habasikie Français: mi niko na: napindula/ unasikia?
S: ndiyo/ pindula?
O: eeh: mi niko ku micro: kama balisema mu Français: minageuza mu Kiswahili: juu ya bantu: bapate kusikia/
S: alafu mu pori habasikie Swa: Swahili/
O: ba?
S: mu pori habasikie Swa...
O: Français/ habakuwa na sikia/ mapori ile ile jours yote ya sasa bantu banasikia Kiswahili/ banasikia Kiswahili/
S: fasi yote?
O: fasi yote tu/ kuku ingine hawezi kujua kusema: lakini kusikia:
S: aa/
O: anasikia/ mm/ ile njo nilianza ku: kupindula: kupindula na: ile films ya ku mu Français/
S: kumbe kupindula...
O: minaisikia/
S: kupindula ni:
O: kugeuza/
S: kugeuza?
O: eeh/ sasa: mbele mi mwenyewe: banafanya ile film/ minasikia yote/
S: mm/
O: mm/ yote: mi minafanya: commentaire/
S: eeh: syn: synchronisation/
O: eeh/ banasema yote mu Français: minakamata fasi mukubwa: yote: minaandika mi mwenyewe:
S: c’est ça/
O: njo kama: tunakwenda kule ku pori: minageuzia batu/ banasema: minageuza/ sasa mutaona hivi na hivi: mbele minabaelezea film: mutaona maana yake hivi: hivi: ya ao ni ya kazi:
S: mm/
O: ao ni ya nini: minabafaire: minabasikilisha/ ...?... bafaire comprendre njo bayue: pale bataanza kuona maimages: batafwata...
S: mm/
O: kufwata masauti yangu/
S: mm/
O: kiisha kama minaisha kubaelezea vile: njo tunaanza film/
S: mm/
O: tunaanza film: inapita kipande: minafanya: nabaelezea mu Kiswahili/ kipande: na vile film itaisha/ tulifanya ile matournées: nilitumika mafasi mingi: Kambove: Likasi: fasi yote ya Ka: ya Likasi na ku Kolwezi: fasi yote: macamps yote ya Gécamines: mimi ku Musonoi: Kolwezi: Luilu: Kapata: fasi yote nili: tulitumika/
S: mm/
O: na ile motokari ya: ya: formation cinéma ambulance/ njo ile tulianza kutumika nayo/ kiisha yake: tunarudia: paka: niliendelea paka na ile kazi ya: ya éducation de la masse:
7. O: So I stayed on with Information Ecrite, now in mass education.
S: Mm.
O: What did I do in mass education? I was a typist.
S: Mm.
O: I wrote on the machine, because I knew (to work with) a typewriter. So I began working at the paper. My articles I did myself...
S: So you wrote?
O: ... on the machine. After that, when I was busy with mass education, we (worked with) films. It was a service for (showing) films, touring places upcountry (lit. the bush).
S: I see.
O: Yes, I started out in town.
S: Mm.
O: When we had finished with all the zones15 we went on outside the town of Lubumbashi. That was the same tour, we all were dependent (on the service) here when we went to Likasi and Kolwezi.16
S: Mm.
O: Mm. Now, what was my job like? I was an animatrice.17 All the films were in French.
S: Mm.
O: So when we went to place upcountry, those people did not understand French and I turned (things) around, you understand?
S: Yes. Turn around?18
O: I was at the microphone and when French was spoken I translated into Swahili so that the people could understand.
S: But upcountry they don’t understand Swa...
O: French they did not understand. But nowadays people everywhere upcountry understand Swahili. They understand Swahili.
S: Everywhere?
O: Everywhere. Now and then a person is not able to speak (Swahili) but when it comes to understanding it...
S: Aah.
O: ... they understand.
S: So “turn around” means...
O: I understand.
S: “Turn around” means...
O: To translate.
S: Translate?
O: Yes. First the films were projected for me alone, I understood everything.
S: Mm.
O: Mm. Everything. What I did was commenting on them.
S: Yes, sort of dubbing them.
O: Yes, everything was said in French. I would take an important passage and write notes for myself.
S: That’s it.
O: So when we went upcountry I translated for the people. I translated, as it is called. (As a spectator) you would see this and that. I first explained the film to them. What you see means this and that, it is about work.
S: Mm.
O: Or whatever. I saw to it that they understood, ...?... made them comprehend so that they would know (what it meant) when began to see the images. They were going to follow...
S: Mm.
O: ... what I said.
S: Mm.
O: When I was done with explaining things to them we started the film.
S: Mm.
O: We started the film, it would run for a bit, then I gave (again) explanations in Swahili. (Then we showed another) part, and so on, until the film ended. We did these tours, I worked in many places, Kambove, Likasi, everywhere in Ka(tanga), Likasi, Kolwezi, everywhere in all the camps of the Gécamines, Musonoi, Kolwezi, Luilu, Kapata, we worked everywhere.
S: Mm.
O: (Traveling) with this car that belonged to (the department of) education, (it was called) “movie ambulance.” Finally we came back and I continued with my job at mass education.
8. tena nilianza ku: nilikuwa: bananipa filmothèque/ ile fasi ya kuchunga mafilms/
S: mm/
O: kwiko: mafasi ingine/ sawa mafasi ya masomo/ sawa ya fasi ya maseminaires/ balikuwa na kuya kubeba films kule: ni ya ku: information/
S: mm/
O: iko gratuit/ eh?
S: mm/
O: minaseoccuper na ile kama: ...?... anakuwa kubeba film: minaandika: sortie/
S: mm/
O: mina na:
S: oui/ c’est ça/
O: minamupa programme/ anachagule ile film anapenda:
S: mm/
O: minamutoshia mule mu films mote: minamufaire remplir: yote inaisha: minamupa délai: kama ni fasi ya mbali ya ku pori: iko juma mbili/ kama ni humu mu ville: ni siku tatu/
S: mm/
O: banarudisha/ kama yee hapana kurudisha: délai inapita: minamuandika barua/ minaandika barua: ya ku ...?... film/
S: mm/
O: kama inarudia tena: minaandika: film ilirudia: njo hivi/ kule minatumika wee: siku yote hii: kuanzia soixante six: mupaka sasa/ sasa: paka humu mu: [hesitates] paka mwaka jana: mu décembre: njo bananirudisha ku antenne mara ingine ku speakerine/
S: eeh?
O: mm/
S: sasa kwa: hii wakati tuli: tulifika?
O: eeh/
S: eyo/
8. Then I started something else when they gave the filmotheque to me, the place where films were kept.
S: Mm.
O: Certain places such schools and seminaries would come and get films, it was for information.
S: Mm.
O: It was for free, right?
S: Mm.
O: I took care of this. When someone came to take out a film I wrote it down in the out-file.
S: Mm.
O: Which I kept.
S: Yes, that’s it.
O: I would give the person a program so he could chose the film he liked.
S: Mm.
O: I took out for him any films on that (list) and made him fill out (a form). When everything was done I gave him a deadline (for returning the film). If it was a far-way place upcountry it would be two weeks. If it was here in town it was three days.
S: Mm.
O: (Then) they returned (the film). If it was not returned and the deadline had passed I would write the person a letter to ...?... (return) the film.
S: Mm.
O: Then, when it came back again, I noted down that film had come back, that’s how it went. There I worked daily, for a long time, from the beginning of sixty six until recently. Then, just last year in December, they sent me back once again to the station (to work) as an announcer.
S: Really?
O: Mm.
S: Recently, just when we arrived (in Lubumbashi)?
O: Yes.
S: I see.
9. O: sasa pale: tena éducation de la masse: motokari yote ile ya cinéma: inaisha/ sasa kule ku radio...
S: inaisha namna gani?
O: mo: motokari iliharibika yote/
S: ina: yote/
O: hakukawa namna ya kufanya tournée hapana/ sasa ilikuwa namna gani? maneno: information ile wakati: ile wa kufika mu: mu mwezi wa munane ya jana: balifanya fusion: banachanga/ hatukabule tena/
S: mm/
O: mbele tulikabula: radio inadépendre ku Kinshasa: information écrite inadépendre huku/ kiisha yake: balisema hapana/ shee bote sasa tuunge ikuye paka kazi: moja/
S: mm/
O: njo tunakamata radio na information: direction sasa: moya: shee bote tunadépendre: ku: kule ku réorientation nationale/
S: c’est ça/
O: Kinshasa/ kiisha yake njo: baliona tena baspeakerines: ku radio banakuwa kidoko: njo balinitosha kule ku: éducation de la masse: sawa vile ile kazi ya radio: njo kazi nilianzaka kutumika mbele...
9. O: Now, to go back to mass education, all the movie cars were finished. Now there at the radio...
S: How do you mean, finished?
O: The cars had all broken down.
S: All of them.
O: It was impossible to go on touring. Now, how did it go on? At that time, in August of last year, the information (services) were merged, put together, and we were no longer assigned (to separate departments).
S: Mm.
O: Before, we were separate, the radio was under Kinshasa (the central government), Information Ecrite, Information Ecrite was under local supervision. Finally it was said, no, we all should be together, there should be only one service.
S: Mm.
O: So we took over the radio and Information, (they were now) under one directorship, we all belonged to (what was called) national reorientation.
S: That’s it.
O: (Meaning) Kinshasa. Then it turned out that at the radio there were only few female announcers, so they took me out of mass education (and gave me) this job at the radio, the one I had had before.
10. S: eh/ na hii kazi: kazi unatumika mu: mu télévision/ sawa saa ya: ya parti?
O: ile: ile...
S: ile ulianza...
O: ile kazi?
S: paka hii wakati?
O: na ile kazi: nilianza paka hii wakati/
S: paka mu mw...
O: mwaka jana/
S: mwaka jana?
O: eeh/ nilianza ile wakati: ile ni: kazi tu ya: maneno banasema: kazi yote ya gouvernement: munapasha iwe MPR/
S: mm/ O: iwe mule ndani: njo balinichagula: ni sawa vile animatrice/
S: animatrice: c’est ça/
O: eeh/ ya...
S: mu télévision:
O: mu télévision:
S: pamoya na Kasongo/
O: eeh/ pamoja na: na Bibi Kawa/
S: Bibi Kawa?
O: eeh/ mbele nilikuwa mi moja/ iko ...?... naita bantu: leo minaita wazone fulani: kesho ba: bale bamembres ba ma: cellule sur cellule/ kiisha yake: pale Bibi Kawa ya congé inaisha:
S: cellule?
O: eeh/
S: ah/
O: pale congé inaisha: njo anakuya: tunaanza kutumika naye/
S: mm/
O: pale alinikutana: mi niko: ku radio: baliisha kunirudisha kule: bananipa programme kufanya sketchs ya Mufwankolo: kufanya Baraza ya Bibi ku radio: sawa vile nilianzia kufanya ku journal:
S: mm/
O: ni sasa ni kusema: kufanya...
S: unafanya: unafanya s: hata sasa?
O: hata sasa/ kila siku ya posho/
S: ah bon/ Baraza ya Bibi/
O: Baraza ya Bibi mu Kiswahili/
S: aah/
O: Baraza ya Wazazi: Baraza ya Bibi: kusema mambo: juu ya banamuke na banaume: mabaya ile na ngambo ya banamuke na mabaya ngambo ya banaume:
S: mm/
O: na: wazazi: kuangaria macho nguvu ubaya ya watoto/
S: mm/
O: eeh/ de kuwaéduquer watoto/
S: mm/
O: kuangaria njia mubaya ya watoto na njia muzuri/
S: mm/
O: mm/ njo kule minatumika: mupaka saa hii: njo minarudia: kule ku radio/ njo fasi nilianzia kazi/ mwanzo: na miaka kumi na saba: nilikuwa natumika tu/
S: ah bon/
O: mupaka saa hii/ nilitumika ile fasi minakuambia ku Aladeff: kiisha ku PEKe: kiisha ku radio mupaka saa hii/
S: ni miaka:
O: sasa minakuwa na miaka kumi na..
S: kumi na...
O: kumi na...
S: na inne/
O: na...
S: na tatu/ na tatu: kumi na inne/
O: eeh/ kumi na tatu tuseme/
S: mm/
O: maneno nilianza ku Aladeff niliaanza mu soixante/
S: mm/ sasa unataka kule ku kazi kule: yake hata nje?
O: minaona sasa njo...
S: una: unapenda hivi?
O: minapenda: minaweza kuendelea maneno siwezi kutoka/ minafanya minaisha kutumika kule miaka mingi/ inaafa paka ile fasi minaisha kutumika miaka mingi: nikale kule wee mupaka kama: kutakuwa ginsi ya kupata pension: mpaka nitakuwa muzee mitapata pension pale kule kazi ya radio/ au moins:
S: mm/
O: au moins kama bananitosha/
S: mm/
O: eeh/ kama habananitoshe nitabakia paka kule/ njo hivi/
S: njo hivi/
O: njo maisha ile ya kazi/
10. S: Right. And when you worked at the television, was this something like a Party job?
O: That...
S: The one you began with...
O: That job?
S: Was it at that time?
O: It was the time when I began with that job.
S: Just...
O: ... last year.
S: Last year?
O: Yes. That was when I started. It was just a job because they say if you work anywhere for the government you must be a member of the MPR (Mobutu’s Mouvement de la Révolution Populaire).
S: Mm.
O: You must be a member.19 So I was chosen to be something like an animatrice.
S: An animatrice, that’s it.
O: Yes. On...
S: On television.
O: On television.
S: Together with Kasongo.
O: And with Bibi Kawa.20
S: Bibi Kawa?
O: Yes. First I was alone. The way it went, I invited people, today from one of the zones, the next day the members of a (Party) cell, one cell after the other. Then, when Bibi Kawa’s leave ended...
S: A cell?
O: Yes.
S: Ah.21
S: When her leave ended, she came and we began to work together.
S: Mm.
O: She had met me first when I was at the radio. Then they reassigned me and gave me the program, doing the sketches of Mufwankolo and Baraza ya Bibi on the radio, the one I had started to work at the newspaper.
S: Mm.
O: So now it was doing...
S: Are you doing this right now?
O: Right now. Every Saturday.
S: I see, Baraza ya Bibi.
O: Baraza ya Bibi, in Swahili.
S: I see.
O: Baraza ya Bibi, Baraza ya Bibi, talk about things concerning women and men, what is wrong on the side of the women and what is wrong on the side of the men.
S: Mm.
O: And about parents, how they really had to have an eye on what went wrong with the children.
S: Mm.
O: Yes, about how to educate their children.
S: Mm.
O: Look at what went wrong with the children and (show them) the good way.
S: Mm.
O: Mm. That’s where I worked until now that I am back at the radio. It was the place where I had begun working, since I was seventeen I always worked.
S: I see.
O: Up to the present. As I told you, the first place where I worked was Aladeff’s, then at the PEK, then, until now, at the radio.
S: It has been years.
O: By now, I have been (doing this) for ten years...
S: Ten and...
O: Ten and...
S: Fourteen.
O: And...
S: Thirteen. Thirteen or fourteen years.
O: Yes, let’s say for thirteen years.
S: Mm.
O: Because I started at Aladeff’s in sixty.
S: Mm. Now, do you still want to go on with your job there?
O: The way I see it, now it is...
S: Do you like things the way they are?
O: I like it, I’ll go on with it because I could not think of quitting. It has been many years I worked there. I should just stay at the place where I worked for many years until there is a way to get retirement pay. Until I am old and retire from my job at the radio. Unless...
S: Mm.
O: Unless they fire me.
S: Mm.
O: If they don’t fire me I’ll just stay there. That’s how it is.
S: That’s how it is.
O: That was (the story of my) life at work.
11. S: na: unaona kazi inaendelea humu namna gani? bantu: sawa vile zamani balikuwa kulima: kufanya nini? balikuwa kulima/
O: ndiyo/
S: mm?
O: mm/
S: njo: njo alikuwa kazi/
O: ...?...
S: ao kulumbata:
O: ndiyo/ lakini zamani ilikuwa kazi ya kulima: ya kulumbata: haina hayapana mu mukini ya kizungu/
S: mm/
O: ilikuwa kazi ya mashamba: na kazi ya kulima: ku mukini/
S: mm/
O: nazani ya ku: kazi ingine ya kuvua samaki/
S: mm/
O: ni makazi ya ku mukini/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: sasa: u: na mazao yako we unaona kama yee anaachana namna gani? hii: zamani ilikuwa muzuri? ao sasa? hii bi: hii kazi ya sasa inapita kazi ya zamani? wee unasikia?
O: ndiyo minkusikia vizuri sana/
S: mm/
O: minona kama: kazi: haiachane kabisa/ kazi haiachane kabisa: lakini watu njo wanaachana/ maneno: unajua kazi ya zamani: wantu wanakuwa na kitumaini ya kusema: natumika fasi fulani: eh? bakiambia fika: na saa fulani/
S: mm/
O: eko na woga/ anasema kama sifikie ile saa fulani: batanitosha kazi/ eh? anaweka kitumaini ku kazi yake/
S: oh: njo kazi ya masociétés?
O: njo kazi ya masociétés/ eeh/ ndiyo/ ile kazi ya société bantu beko na boga/ hata anatafuta kudanganya: hawezi kudanganya: kabisa/ eh?
S: mm/
O: eeh/ anaweza ku: akiwe na neno: anaweza kulaka: ao anasema bongo moya eh? anasema: neno moya ya kusema: malari ao nduku anakufa: njo apate wakati bamupe ya: ya kwenda kufanya:
S: mm/
O: ile congé/
S: mm/
O: lakini inaachana kabisa na kazi ya gouvernement/ kazi ya gouvernement: hapa sasa: watu hawashemie kabisa/ anaweza kutoka sawa vile anapenda/
S: mm/
O: eeh/ kama nayee atasema kuku neno fulani: mara ingine atalaka: mara ingine hapana/ anatoka tu/ hawezi hata kumuambia mukubwa yake anamuambia tu: mu ingia yake banatumikaka anasema ndiyo: kama banauliza: minakwenda fasi fulani/
S: mm/
O: mm/ njo ile kazi iliachana ya zamani/
S: mm/
O: hata zamani kazi ya gouvernement: pale wakati bazungu ba: eko ndani: bantu balikuwa na boga sawa vile ya:
S: sawa vile...
O: ya: ya mu sociétés/
11. S: And how do think the work situation here will develop? In the old days people worked the fields. What did they do? They worked the fields.
O: Yes.
S: Mm?
O: Mm.
S: That was work.
O: ...?...
S: Or (they went) hunting.
O: Yes. In the old days, work was cultivating and hunting, there was as yet none in European settlements.
S: Mm.
O: There was just work in the fields, cultivating, in the village.
S: Mm.
O: I think of another kind of work, fishing.
S: Mm.
O: Those were the kinds of work in the village.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: Now if you think about it what do you find was different about this kind of work? What was good, the old kind or the one done now? I modern work better? You understand?
O: Yes, I understand you quite well.
S: Mm.
O: In my view, there is not much of a difference. It is not the work that is much different but the people. You know, about work in the old days, people had hope. They told themselves, I’ll find some place to work, right? When a person had been told to come at a certain hour..
S: Mm.
O: He was afraid, telling himself, if I don’t get there at that hour they will fire me. Right?
A person would rely on his job.
S: Well, was that the case with work for the companies?
O: That’s how working for the companies was, right. Yes. People who have jobs in a company are afraid. Even if a person wanted to cheat he could not cheat a lot, right?
S: Mm.
O: Yes. If he had some matter to take care of it was possible to stay away, or he could tell a lie, right? Saying something about an illness or a relative having died in order to get some time off to do (what he wanted to do).
S: Mm.
O: (To get) this leave.
S: Mm.
O: But that is quite different from working for the government. For government work, right now, people just don’t have much respect. A person can leave at his whim.
S: Mm.
O: Yes. A person will just say, there is something (I need to take care of). Sometimes he will (ask for) a leave, sometimes not, he’ll just go away. It is possible that he will not even inform his superior. When he comes into (the office) and when those who are working ask him he just says, well I am going to this or that place.
S: Mm.
O: Mm. That is how this sort of work is different (from the one that used to be done) in the old days.
S: Mm.
O: Even government work in the old days, during the time when Europeans were in it, people were afraid just like...
S: Just like...
O: ...in the companies.
12. S: oui/ alafu kama nilinasema kazi ya zamani niliwaza zamani ya: ya: zamani za kale/
O: zamani zakale: ile zamani za kale ile siwezi kukuambia kintu: sababu: ku zamani za kale: wababu walitumika nao vilevile/ eh? bale bababu yetu balitumika/ balitumika: balitumika mara mingi ku bazungu: bengine balikuwa kufanya makazi yao/ sasa kabisa kabisa kazi ya zamani za kale: wamingi: ilikuwaka paka ile kazi ya mashamba/
S: mm/
O: mm/ batu mingi: huku ku kizungu batu balikuwa kidogo: ni mingi batu balikuwa ku mugini/
S: sasa banasemaka kama: kazi ya mashamba itakuwa muzuri: itakuwa na: na heshima sasa/ utawaza namna gani?
O: ...?...
S: batu bana: batatumikaka?
O: kutumika kazi ya mashamba?
S: eeh/ bataitika?
O: kazi ya mashamba itatumikiwa: huku ku migini ya kizungu ao kuzariwa?
S: hii/ humu mu...
O: mu ki ...?... inchi/ mu inchi muzima?
S: mm/
O: ao:
S: sawa vile ba: Président alisema eeh? inafaa kulima kulima kulima/
O: lakini: mm: Prési: Président alisema balime mashamba/ sawa kwa batu ya ku mikini: haina mambo ya kushangaa/
S: non/
O: maneno bo ni kazi yabo:
S: oui oui/
O: ya kila siku/ hakutakuwa kubadirika/
S: eh/
O: eeh/
S: alafu bantu ba ...?...?
O:... ni kila siku lakini bantu ya ku mukini: na bo kuko wakati moja: habakuwa nalima mingi sababu ya nini? sababu: kama banalima chakula mingi: hakukuwa: mutu wa kwenda kuuza ile chakula/
S: mm/
O: unaona? bana: banalima hata mihoko hata mihindi: binaoza bule/ maneno zamani makati ya zamani ile ya bababu: kulikuwaka: eh: watu: ao ma: bazungu bengine: sawa: balikwenda kuuza: ile machakula ya batu/ eh/ mwisho wa mwaka: balituma batu sawa kwa mufano balikuwa nalima ndanda/ cotton/
S: mm/
O: ile muzungu asema Cotonco alianza kwenda kununua:
S: c’est ça/
O: mandanda: hivi na hivi/ lakini kuya kati: kiisha ya indépendent: hakuna muntu aliweka kitumaini juu ya kwenda kuusa ile machakula ya batu/
S: mm/
O: maneno bo huku kwetu: batu ba: bali...
S: si njo: ndiyo: si njo mawazo yake ya Président: kama banalima: na banachunga chagila: chakula ya: hiii: banalima: juu ya kula/
O: juu ya kula lakini: ku mugini: juu ya kula lakini haba: hawezi kulima toujours ya kula/ maneno hata ku mugini zamani: banakuwa nalima juu ya kula: tena: bale habana kazi/
S: mm/
O: kazi yabo ni mashamba/ balikuwa nalima juu ya kula: tena babauze/ maneno ile: ile feza/
S: c’est ça/
O: ile makuta batabauza: nabo batapata ni juu ya kuuza nguo/ habawezi kula tu kula tu: atavwala nini?
S: mm/
O: balikuwa na lazima ya kuuza jembe/
S: mm/
O: inafaa kuwa na feza/ maneno balikuwa wanauzisha vile: mwisho wa mwaka: kunakuwa bale banaweza kuwa kuuza ile machagula: nayee: kama jembe ilivunjika: kama shoka: eh: hana ao nini: mupanga: ile: ile feza batamuuza machakula: nayee ataauza tena bitu na kulima naye mashamba mara ingine/
S: mm/
O: kama unakulima tu juu ya chakula: paka kula: hakuna muntu wa humu/ atakuuza: alafu: pale ile nani: mashoka/ pale ile majembe ile mipanga itakufa: hautapata kintu ingine: tena utavwala nini?
S: c’est ça/
O: unafaa kula na kuvwala/
S: c’est ça/
O: njo hivi.
S: c’est ça/
O: mm/
12. S: Yes. However, when I mentioned work in the old days I was thinking of the old days long ago.
O: Long ago – about that remote past I cannot tell you anything (much). Long ago our forefathers also worked, right? Those forefathers worked. Often they worked for the Europeans, others worked on their own. In the really remote past, for many there was just work in the fields.
S: Mm.
O: Mm. Here, in the world of the white man they were few, many lived in the village.
S: Nowadays it is said22 that working the fields will be good, that it will be honorable again. What do you think about that?
O: ...?...
S: Will people go to work?
O: Going to work the fields?
S: Yes, will they accept this?
O: Work in the fields will be done. Here in the modern towns or (or in the places where they) were born?
S: Here in...
O: In the country, everywhere in the country?
S: Mm.
O: Or...
S: As the President said, right? (We) must cultivate, cultivate, cultivate.
O: Well, mm. The President did say that people should work the fields. For the people in the villages that was not much of a surprise.
S: No.
O: Because, as far as they are concerned, that is the work...
S: Yes, yes.
O: ...they do every day. It was nothing new (lit. nothing that changed).
S: Yes.
O: Right.
S: But what about people in...?...
O: ... (working the fields) is what people in the villages do every day. But there was a time when they did not do much cultivating. Why? Because when they grew a lot of food, there was no one who bought it.
S: Mm.
O: You see? They grew manioc and maize, it just rotted. Whereas in the old days, the times of our forefathers, there were always people, some of them Europeans, who went around buying the food stuffs people (had grown). Yes. At the end of the year they sent people around – for instance, (to regions where) cotton was grown.
S: Mm.
O: This European would announce that Cotonco started buying...
S: That’s it.
O: ...(buying) cotton, this sort of thing. But when the time after Independence came there was no one who had any hope that he would be selling the food stuff the people (grew).
S: Mm.
O: Because here in our country people used to..
S: Wasn’t that the President’s idea that people should cultivate and store food they grew (so they would have something) to eat? It was about cultivating in order to eat.
O: It was about eating but in a village you cannot cultivate just to (have something to) eat. In the village, even in the old days, when they used to cultivate to have something to eat there were also those who had no work.
S: Mm.
O: (In the village) they worked he fields and they cultivated in order to eat but also to sell (what they grew) for money.
S: That’s it.
O: The Makuta (cash) they would make selling (food) to others was for buying clothes. They couldn’t just eat and eat – what would a person wear?
S: Mm.
O: They (also) needed to buy hoes.
S: Mm.
O: (For that they) needed money. Because when they were selling, when at the end of the year there were those who could by the food stuff, then a person, if a hoe was broken or an adze was missing, or whatever, a bush knife, could use the money he got when others bought food from him to buy the tools needed to cultivate the fields again.
S: Mm.
O: If you cultivate only for food, only to eat, no one would be left here unless you could sell (the food). Then, if those things like adzes, hoes, bush knives broke down, you would have nothing left. And what were you going the wear?
S: That’s it.
O: You must eat and have something to wear.
S: That’s it.
O: That’s how it is.
S: That’s it.
O: Mm.
13. S: kumbe: [hesistates] na: sawa vile wee unaona bantu bana: banaona masociétés: sawa Union: Union Minière ya zamani: ya Gécamines: banaona namna gani? mara ingine bana: sawa vile unasema: banasikia: woga/ mm?
O: ya zamani: mm/
S: mm? hata sasa/
O: ndiyo/
S: mm? kama analo: kama anaanza kulofa:
O: batamutosha kazi eeh/
S: mm/ alafu: mara ingine banapenda hii kazi/
O: lakini kwa ukazi banapenda/
S: sababu gani?
O: [overlapping] hata pale beko natu: eh: eh: kazi ya sawa ya Gécamines ao ya sociétés/
S: mm/
O: banapenda kwa sababu: ni: kazi banaisha ku: kazi anaisha kuzobelea/ anayua muzuri asema kule: bananiangaria na macho ya makali: habaniache kucheza/ ukiwa neno ya lazima: minaweza kulaka: na bo batanisikia asema muntu yote anapataka mambo: bataniachilia lakini: kama minafanya wongo ya muno: ao kulofa...
S: wongo ya?
O: ya muno/ kule kudanganya kila siku: oh leo: ...
S: muno?
O: muno/ ya kupita kipimo/ bongo/
S: ah c’est: mm/
O: eeh/ kama inapita kipimo inakuwa ya muno/
S: mm/
O: ya ku: ya kupita kipimo/ sasa: atasikia boga asema pale minadanganya mingi: kama banani: vumbula ile mayele: siku ingine asema à longue faire: batanifukuza/ sasa unayua eh: ya: mu l’état: ts: tuseme tu: hakuna controle kabisa hapana/
S: mm/ mm/
O: njo hivi/
13. S: So [hesitates] in your view, how do people see the companies such as the s, which used to be called Union Minière? As you said before, they may be afraid. Mm?
O: That used to be the name (of ), mm.
S: Mm? Even now.
O: Yes.
S: Mm? If someone begins to loaf.
O: They’ll fire him from his job.
S: Mm. But still, maybe people like the work there.
O: The work as such they like.
S: Why?
O: [overlapping] Those who have work at the or other companies.
S: Mm.
O: They like the work because it is something they have gotten used to. A person working there knows quite well they have a sharp eye one me, they don’t let me fool around. If there is a good reason I can take a leave. They will understand me, everyone may have a business to take care of and they will let me go. But when I invent too many lies or stay away...
S: What kind of lies?
O: Too many.23 Cheating every day, saying, oh today...
S: That is called muno?
O: Muno. Excessive, (said of a) lie.
S: Ah, that’s what it means, mm.
O: Yes. When it is too much it becomes muno.
S: Mm.
O: It is excessive. Now, a person will be afraid, telling himself, if I cheat a lot and they get wise to my tricks, some day, in the long run, they are going to throw me out. But, you know, (when you work for) the State – how shall I say? – let’s just say there is little control.
S: Mm. Mm.
O: That’s how it is.
14. S: na beko: banaingia pa: particulier: ma: mara ingine mu cité/ mu mazones/
O: mm/
S: beko ma na: ma: nani: menusiers:
O: ndiyo/
S: na bantu bengine banafanyaka kazi/
O: ndiyo/ kwa ile mingi sana/ kuko makazi mingi/ kuko bengine sawa alitumika ya menusier ao kwa muzungu ao nini: wakati ingine nayee aliona: ile kazi alifanya kwa muzungu: anaweza kukuitumika ku nyumba yake/ atafanya nguvu nayee auze machine ya mbao: anauza nini:
S: mm/
O: anafanya atelier yee mwenyewe ku nyumba yake: ataweza kufanya bitu/ ile bitu anafanya: baZairois bengine banaweza kumuuza: tena anaweza kurudisha ku bazungu bengine/ mm/ haina: unaona sawa: manyumba mingi ile ya kuuzisha bitu/ sawa kule ku Benzakein: et puis haina paka: bamenusier yabo banafanya/
S: mm/
O: bintu ingine banauza ya kutoka inje/ ya cité/ mm/
14. S: Then there are those who move to the private sector, perhaps in a township, in the zones.
O: Mm.
S: They (work as) carpenters.
O: Yes.
S: And other people are working (there).
O: Yes, many do that. There are many jobs. Some may work as a carpenter or for a European, or whatever. Then the time may come when a person realizes that the work he did for a European he can do at his house. He’ll try hard to buy a wood-working machine. He buys whatever (it takes).
S: Mm.
O: He sets up his own shop in his house and can produce things. Other Zaireans can then buy things from him and he may even sell them back to certain Europeans. Mm. One sees many houses where there are things for sale just like at (the shop owned by) Benzakein. And by the way, it is not only carpenters who do this.
S: Mm.
O: Other things are sold that leave the township. Mm.
15. S: c’est ça/ mm/ na: mara ingine nili: niliona sawa vile kati ya bantu ya commerce: na bantu wa kazi: ts: banabishana/ mara ingine/
O: mm/
S: si vile?
O: banabishana sababu: ule commerce anasema: mi niko na: na makuta/ kila siku/
S: mm/
O: mais muntu wa kazi: wee unaongojea paka mwisho wa mwezi/
S: na: mu mawazo yako commerce ni: kazi paka sawasawa: kazi ingine?
O: commerce ni kazi sawa kazi ingine: inafaa inaendelea muzuri/ maneno ni kazi moja: hauna: ts: na nani? hauna kabisa na: tusema garantie/
S: mm/
O: eeh/ inafaa paka ile commerce yako inaendelea muzuri: njo utapata namna/ mara ingine unaweza kuwa na baclients babaya: banakukongola biashara: habalipe bote/ si wee unauza ingine banakongola: [claps her hands] mwisho yake utaanguka/ lakini muntu wa kazi/ hata kama ma: makuta inaisha: anatumania asema mwisho wa mwezi: banaweza ku: kunilipa/
S: mm/
O: commerce ni muzuri kama inaendele muzuri/ lakini kama haindelee muzuri: muntu wa kazi anapita/ maneno yeye: anatumania kabisa kabisa asema mwisho ya mwezi banaweza kulipa mushahara wangu/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: ni vile/
O: mm/
15. S: That’s it. Mm. Occasionally I observed, how shall I say, that there are sometimes conflicts between business people and workers.
O: Mm.
S: Right?
O: They may quarrel because the one who is in business may say, I have cash coming, every day.
S: Mm.
O: Whereas as a worker you keep waiting for the end of the month.
S: And do you think that doing business is just work like any other?
O: Business is work like any other (but) it must do well. Because it is the kind of work where, how shall I put it, you don’t really have guarantees.
S: Mm.
O: Yes. This business of yours must do well, then you can make it. It can happen that you have bad customers who buy your wares on credit and they don’t all pay. If you go on selling on credit [claps her hands], in the end you go down. Whereas the worker, even if he is out of cash, hopes for the end of the month, telling himself, they will be able to pay me.
S: Mm.
O: Doing business if fine if it goes well. But if it doesn’t go well, the worker is better off. Because he really has the confidence, at the end of the month they will be able to pay my wages.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: That’s how it is.
O: Mm.
16. S: na mu mawazo yako una: unawaza nini? inafaa kila muntu anatumike kazi?
O: lakini ni lazima/ ile ni lazima: kila muntu anapashwa...
S: lazima gani?
O: ni lazima kwa sababu: bila kazi hauna na maisha/ kwa kupata yote inafaa tu kazi/ haina paka kazi inyewe ya: kusema kwa muzungu hapana: kazi ni kazi ao tu ya commerce/ maneno kama uko unafanya kazi yako:
S: mm/
O: ni kazi/ ile hatutake: ni ile ya: kukala tu hivi/ bure/ hauna hata na kitu moya unafanyaka/ ile haina maisha muzuri/ maneno kama unaikala paka hivi pasipo kintu hata kimoja: njo kule kunatoka mawazo mubaya ya kwenda kuiba/
S: mm/
O: eeh/
S: alafu mara ingine: kama muntu: muntu fulani iko na: na utajiri yote ya: ya: ya dunia/
O: eeh/
S: mm? milliardaire/
O: mm/
S: sasa: yee atatumika?
O: eh: sasa pale eko milliardaire/
S: eh/
O: alitumika/ hakukuye milliardaire: una...
S: ba: non: baba yake alikuwa milliardaire: na baba yake ali: alimupa hii mali/
O: baba yake ali: alimupa ile mali?
S: mm/
O: lakini pale baba yake alimupa ile mali: ni kusema: ile kazi iko inaendelea/ kule kunatoka...
S: non: eko na bantu yake/ bantu yake ba...
O: si njo vile minasema?
S: ...comptables: na...
O: eeh/
S: na sasa yee: haina: maneno ataweza kuikala paka bule/ kula vizuri: kunywa vizuri:
O: mais ule muntu hatuwezi kumusema ni mulofa hapana/ maneno: anaikala eko anakulya muzuri: lakini ile kazi yake baba yake alimuachia: ile kazi inatumika: yee anakulya marevenues...
S: ndiyo/
O: yee anakulya ile ma: ile makuta/ ile inatoka ku ile kazi/
S: oui/ njo muzuri?
O: ule hana mulofa/
S: mm/
O: anaikala lakini: hana yee...
S: itaweza: itaweza hata kama iko na: na butajiri yote: ataweza kuikala bule: maisha yake yote?
O: mm/
S: ni kusema hii...
O: pasipo kutumika kazi?
S: c’est ça/
O: lakini sizanie/ hata iko mutajiri: atafanya ya kutu ...?... eh? anapasha ku: lazimisha ku: ku v: hata siku ingine anakwenda ku ile makazi yake kuangaria ao nini: ile yote ni kazi...
S: sababu gani?
O: eh? njo kazi yake ile/ sababu hawezi kusema mi niko mutajiri: nikala tu paka hivi? kwanza mu mwaka mupake mwisho wa mwaka: kulya tu na kulala ku nyumba hapana/
S: mm/
O: anapashwa kwenda siku moja: anagaria kazi ile inyewe inatembea namna gani/ kwa sababu kama yee hapana kwenda kuangaria [pidgin form] kuangaria ile kazi: siku ingine yee atishituka alikuwa mutajiri anakuwa masikini/
S: mm/
O: maneno hajue: kule ku ile kazi kama iko inaendelea muzuri: kama haindelee/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: c’est ça/
16. S: And what to you think, must everyone work?
O: It’s a necessity. It’s a necessity, everyone must...
S: What kind of necessity?
O: It is necessary because without work you don’t have a life. Work is needed if you are to get everything (you need). This is not only the case, say with a regular job (working for) a European. Work is work, even doing business. Because when you do your work...
S: Mm.
O: ...it is a job. What we don’t want is just staying idle, without anything to do. That is not a good life. Because if you hang around like that, without doing a thing, that is when one gets bad ideas like going out to steal.
S: Mm.
O: Yes.
S: But take someone who has all the wealth of the world.
O: Yes.
S: Mm? A billionaire.
O: Mm.
S: Now, is he going to work?
O: He did work, otherwise he would not have become a billionaire. You...
S: No, (let’s say) his father was a billionaire and left him this wealth.
O: His father left him this wealth?
S: Mm.
O: But when his father left him this wealth the work goes on. Where it came from...
S: No, he has his people. His people who...
O: Isn’t that what I am saying?
S: ... are his bookkeepers and...
O: Yes.
S: In such a situation he could stay idle without a problem. Eat well, drink well.
O: Still, we could not call this person a loafer. Because he may go on eating well, the work his father left him goes on working, he eats the income...
S: Yes.
O: He eats that cash, it comes from that work.
S: Yes. Is that good?
O: Such a person is not a loafer.
S: He may just hang around, but there is nothing he...
S: It is possible, though, if he has all the wealth, that he can just hang around doing nothing for his whole life?
O: Mm.
S: That is to say, this...
O: Without doing any work?
S: That’s it.
O: But I don’t think so. Even if there is wealth, he is going to...?... right? He must take on obligations. One day he goes to (look) at those enterprises of his, or whatever, all this is work...
S: Why?
O: Right? That is his work. Because he can’t just tell himself, I am rich, I am just going to stay that way? From the beginning of the year to the end just eat and sleep at home.
S: Mm.
O: Because he would not know whether this enterprise of his is doing well or not.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: That’s it.
17. kumbe tuko na kintu ingine: nilitaka kukuuliza: kukuulizia:
O: mm/
S: ni ya: [hesitates] sawa wee unaona kazi yangu namna gani? si njo mi: minatumika kazi?
O: ndiyo/
S: njo kazi?
O: ni kazi/ njo kazi/ kazi yako iko muzuri maneno kazi yako: unatafuta kufahamu/
S: kufahamu?
O: eeh/ kazi yako ni kwa kufahamu: kujua kufahamu: na kujua kama: hii kitu lazima yake ni nini/
S: mm/
O: eeh/
S: mm/
O: huyu mu: kufanya hivi: mwisho wake itakuwa nini? hii mu..?... kama inafanya hii kitu: mwisho yake itakuwa namna gani? ni kazi ya: tuseme ku: kuendelesha akili: kujua kitu gani kinaweza kuwa: mbele/
S: mm/
O: eeh/
S: mm/
O: ile kazi yako ni ya lazima sana/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: sasa: sawa vile mi nilianza na mawazo kama lugha: kinywa eh?
O: mm/
S: ni kintu ya: ya:
O: mm/
S: importance/
O: mm/ unaona njo ile maana ya kazi yako: kazi yako ni ya lazima na mi ya nguvu/
S: mm/
O: maneno unajua: pa kufunda lugha:
S: mm/
O: ile hauiajua hata siko moja/ na kuisikia: na uisikie vizuri sana mwenyewe ule wa ile lugha ile iko anasema: unaona asema ni kazi moya ya nguvu kabisa/
17. So let’s take up another thing I wanted to ask you.
O: Mm.
S: It is about [hesitates]... How do you see my work? I do work, don’t I?
O: Yes.
S: Is what I do work?
O: It is work. It is work.Your work is valuable because you want to get to know.
S: Get to know?
O: Yes. Your work is about getting to know, being able to become familiar with a subject and know what it is about.24
S: Mm.
O: Yes.
S: Mm.
O: When this person acts like this what will he end up with (lit. what will be his end)? When this person does this or that what will come of it? Let’s say your work is to improve the mind, to know what the principle is.
S: Mm.
O: Yes.
S: Mm.
O: There is a great need for your work.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: Let’s take the thoughts I began with, about language, right?
O: Mm.
S: It is something of...
O: Mm.
S: ...importance.
O: Mm. You see, that is the meaning of your work, for me your work is much needed.
S: Mm.
O: Because you know, to learn a language...
S: Mm.
O: ...this cannot be accomplished in a day. And to understand, really to understand well a person who speaks that language, that is what I am talking about when I say it is very hard work.
18. S: mm/ mm/ sasa wee unawaza vile? kama iko: iko kintu ya: ya importance?
O: lugha iko kintu ya: ya lazima: minakuambia?
S: ya lazima/
O: eeh/
S: ni lazima mu: mu: ni ya lazima namna gani?
O: ya lazima: maneno minaweza kukuambia eh: lugha ni kintu ya lazima/ kama unafahamu lugha: moja:
S: mm/
O: ya fasi fulani/ sawa hivi: hapa sasa/ unafanya nguvu unafahmu: lugha/ uko unasema Kiswahili muzuri sana/ mm? hautakuwa na magumu kwako/ maneno utatembea: karibu: hii [hesitates] république yetu ya Zaire: fasi yote beko banasema Kiswahili: unafika: ao tu unaonekana sawa muntu mujinga/
S: mm/
O: unasikia?
S: mujinga/
O: mm/ yote utasikia wazi/ yote: hata uko na njala:
S: mujinga ni fermé?
O: mm/ ule muntu wasipo kujua kitu/
S: c’est ça/
O: eeh/ hata uko na njala: maneno kama haujue hii lugha: wee kazi yako wee unafanya wa kusema ujue lugha: sawa vile minasema unayua Kiswahili: unaweza kwenda fasi moya: wanasema Kiswahili/ hata uko na njia ni kipesi kuomba chakula/ chakula fulani ikoako? alafu kama haujue ile lugha: haujue lugha: unasikia njala lakini: namna ya kumuambia muntu kama: unipatie kitu fulani:
S: mm/
O: itakuwa nguvu/ yee atakuangaria: anaona tu kama: alikuwa na njala: hawezi kutosha anakupa: lakini anayua tu asema angekuwa naandiaka ma ananiomba/
na weye lakini: unasikia njala hauna namna ya kuomba/
S: mm/
O: unayua asema: njo mafaa kabisa ya kujua lugha/
S: mm/ kujua lugha/
O: kujua lugha ni kitu: kitu kizuri/
S: [overlapping]`... hii: ni paka hii kintu moya ya: ya kuweza kuomba chakula?
O: hapana/ kujua lugha inaweza kuku: ni m: ile ni mufano moja tu minabeba/
S: mm/ mm/
O: kuna mara mingi sana ya kuweza ku: kujua lugha/
S: mm/
O: kwa mufano/ hata juu ya kazi/ unakwenda fasi moya ya hapa: banasema: batu bote: banajua kinywa fulani/ na mu hii société tunatufuta na muntu wa kujua fa: kinywa fulani/
unaona kama: unaweza kutumika juu sababu ulijua lugha fulani/
S: c’est ça/
O: mm/
18. S: Mm. Mm. So you think so, too? That this is a matter of importance?
O: Language is a necessity, didn’t I tell you?
S: Something necessary.
O: Yes.
S: Necessary but in what way?
O: It is necessary because I can tell you language is necessary. If you are familiar with a language...
S: Mm.
O: ... spoken in a given place. Like right now you make an effort to get to know the language. You speak Swahili quite well. Mm? You won’t have problem when you travel in this [hesitates], our Republic of Zaire, anywhere where they speak Swahili. (If that were not the case) you might look like some mujinga simple-minded person.
S: Mm.
O: You understand?
S: Mujinga.25
O: Mm. (If you speak the language) you’ll understand everything. You may be hungry...
S: Mujinga means something like [in French] closed?
O: Mm. (It means) a person who does not know anything.
S: That’s it.
O: Mm. You may be hungry, (what are you going to do) if you don’t know the language? The work you put into getting to know the language, well, it is as I told you, (if) you know Swahili you can travel to a place where the speak Swahili. When you are on the road it is easy to ask for food. (You can ask) is there this or that to eat? But if you don’t know the language and feel hungry, to tell someone, get me this or that...
S: Mm.
O: ...will be difficult. He will look at you and even if he may see that this person is hungry he won’t come up with anything. But if he knows (what you want) he may tell himself, I’ll prepare what he asked for.
S: Mm.
O: You know what is being said, that is really what knowing a language is good for.
S: Mm. Knowing a language.
O: Knowing a language is something valuable.
S: [overlapping]... is it just this one thing, being able to ask for food?
O: No, knowing a language can (give) you – this was just an example I gave you.
S: Mm. Mm.
O: There are very many (other reasons) for having command of a language.
S: Mm.
O: For instance, even when work is concerned. You go to a certain place here (in this region) where everyone knows a certain language. (They may say) in this company we are looking for a person who knows a certain language. So you see, you will be able to work because you know a certain language.
S: That’s it.
O: Mm.
19. S: c’est ça/ na humu una: unaona namna gani: mu Lubumbashi ban: [hesitates] hii Swahili itaendelea ao mara ingine Lingala itaingia: ao?
O: sizanie kama: [hesitates] Kiswahili inaweza kuishia...
S: kwa bantu/ ha?
O: haiweze kuisha: haiwezekane/
S: mm/
O: sababu: [hesitates] hakuna namna tu/
S: mm/
O: hakuna namna/ habana bote banayua Lingala/
S: mm/
O: hata kama tunayua Lingala: ni humu: humu mu ville tunayua Lingala/ lakini mikini ya kuzarikwa: banayua kusikia kinywa ya inchi yake na Kiswahili/
S: c’est ça/
O: namna gani ule atatoka sasa humu enda ku mugini wa kuzaliwa kwa kufundisha muntu Lingala ni nani?
S: mm/
O: haiwezekane/
S: mm/
O: ile Lingala ni kinywa tu wa sisi wa: tuko ndani ya tauni/
S: oui/
O: lakini kwa mugini sizanie kama ile Kiswahili itaweza kuisha/
S: hata humu bansemaka Lingala?
O: banasema Lingala moja kwa moja/ hapana bantu bote/
S: bantu bote/
O: kuko mugini haisikie hata kidogo/
S: c’est ça/ na Swahili banasemaka iko namna moya: ao namna...
O: hapana/
S: ya mingi?
O: Swahili inye kuachana/ Swahili: iko inye kuachana sana/ kila région iko na namna yake ya kusema/
S: na hata: humu mu tauni/ inaachana sababu ju ya...
O: hata mu humu mu tauni: sababu: kuko: batu bote kuko yee alitoka région fulani/ huyu alitoka fasi fulani: huyu alitoka fasi fulani/
S: alafu baliisha ku...
O: kwa mufano sawa humu mu Shaba/
S: ndiyo/
O: mm? kuko bantu banatoka: banatoka Kalemie/
S: mm/
O: eh? bantu banatoka Moba/ bantu banatoka Kongolo/ eh? na batu ba: humu: mu Shaba mwenyewe humu mu...
S: ndiyo/
O: humu mu Lubumbashi/
S: mm/
O: Kiswahili inaachana maneno: ule: tunasikilizana/ lakini ni namna ya kutamuka ya kuprononcer inaachana/
S: mm/
O: lakini kusikilizana tuko tunasikilizana/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: mm/
O: tunaweza kusema kitu moja: namna ya kuachana/ lakini wee unapashwa tu kuyua ni kitu fulani anasema/ yeye anasema namna beko nasema Kiswahili kwabo:
S: mm/
O: na wee unasema ginsi beko banasema Kiswhili kwenu/ njo hivi/
S: kumbe kama unasikia muntu: namna yake ya: ya...
O: ya kusema: utayua huyu ni wa kipande fulani/
S: ah bon/
O: eeh/
S: ao kipande ya: ya tauni/
O: eh kama uko ni: ni wa kihumu mu tauni: Kiswahili ya humu mu tauni tuko nasema: na kisema: inaachana/
S: [overlapping] sawa inaachana hii mu Kenya inaachana ya Katuba?
O: hapana/
S: hapana/
O: ya humu mu tauni iko namna moja/
S: ah?
O: isipokuwa paka muntu mwenye kutoka sawa ku Kongolo: ao weye kama unakwenda:
S: bantu ya ku Gécamines?
O: ku Gécamines ina: inakuwa inaachana sasa/
S: mm/
O: eeh/ maneno: ile Kiswahili bo beko nasema: iko: inaachana/ inaachana/ sawa mama....
S: namna gani?
O: ... mama hanako: batoka kule ku Gécamines banasema mama ashinako/
S: njo banasema...
O: mama ashinako eh/
S: ke: mm/ [chuckles]
O: mama ashinako/
S: na uko: uko na mifano ingine? O: eeh mifano: mifano tu iko mingi/ mifano iko mingi kabisa: sasa inafaa kukumbuka: [to herself] ashinako: kuko ingine tena: wanasema: [hesitates] eh mita: mm: kwa mufano: eh? hakukuye/ ashikukuye/
S: ashikukuye/
O: eeh ashikukuye/ lakini unayua tu asema anasema kitu fulani/
S: mm/
O: Kiswahili iko inaachana/
S: kama unasikia hii: hii namna ya kusema...
O: anasema ashikukuye: anasema tu hakukuye/
S: ah/
O: eeh/
S: njo muntu ya Gécamines/
O: ya Gécamines: hata unasema: mara unamuuliza mutoto: baba yako ikoako? ashinako/ anasema tu anasema baba hako/ hana/
19. S: That’s it. How do you see it, will Swahili here in Lubumbashi [hesitates] continue (to be spoken) or is maybe Lingala going to come in?
O: I don’t think [hesitates] that this could be the end of Swahili...
S: Among the people. What do you think?
O: It could not disappear, that’s impossible.
S: Mm.
O: Because [hesitates] there is just no way.
S: Mm.
O: No way everyone would know Lingala.
S: Mm.
O: Even if we know Lingala, as we do here in town, but in the villages where we were born they know the local language and Swahili.
S: That’s it.
O: Who is going to leave here, go to his native village, and teach someone Lingala?
S: Mm.
O: Impossible.
S: Mm.
O: Lingala is a language for us urbanites.
S: Yes.
O: At any rate, I don‘t think that Swahili could disappear from the village.
S: So they do speak Lingala here?
O: Not everyone, now and then you find a person who speaks Lingala.
S: (Not) everyone.
O: In the village is not understood at all.
S: That’s it. And about the Swahili that is spoken, is there one way (to speak it) or...
O : No.
S: There are many?
O: There are different kinds of Swahili, it can be quite different. Every region has its way to speak it.
S: And even here in town, there are differences because...
O: Even here in town, because everyone came from a certain region. This person came from one place, that one from another.
S: But they have...
O: For example, take the situation here in Shaba.
S: Yes.
O: Mm? There are people who come from Kalemie.
S: Mm.
O: Right? People come from Moba. People come from Kongolo, right? And people coming from right here in Shaba...
S: Yes.
O: Here from Lubumbashi.
S: Mm.
O: (Their) Swahili is different but we communicate with such a person. It’s just the pronunciation that is different.
S: Mm.
O: But we communicate, we understand each other.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: Mm.
O: It can happen that we say something differently. But you know what the person is talking about, it cannot be otherwise. He talks the way they speak Swahili in their region.
S: Mm.
O: And you talk the way they speak Swahili in your region. That’s how it is.
S: So when you notice the way a person...
O: ... talks, you’ll know where he comes from.
S: I see.
O: Yes.
S: Or from what part of town.
O: If you meet someone from a certain part of town, there are differences in the Swahili spoken here in town.
S: [overlapping] Like the one that is spoken in Kenya (township) differs from the one in Katuba?
O: No.
S: No.
O: Here in town there is just one kind.
S: Really?
O: Unless the person happens to be from Kongolo or if you go...
S: (What about) the people at Gécamines?
O: At Gécamines now, there is quite different.
S: Mm.
O: Yes. The Swahili they speak (there) is different.. It is different. Like “mama...
S: How so?
O: ...mama hanako (mother is not here), those who come from the Gécamines say mama ashinako.
S: That’s what they say...
O: Mama ashinako, yes.
S: Mm. [chuckles]
O: Mama ashinako.26
S: And do you have other examples?
O: Sure, examples there are many. There are very many examples, let me think [to herself] there is ashinako and there are others. They say [hesitates], for example, right? Instead of hakukuye (he hasn’t come) ashikukuye.
S: Ashikukuye.
O: Yes, ashikukuye. Still, you know what he is saying.
S: Mm.
O: The Swahili (at Gécamines) is different.
S: When you hear this way of talking...
O: When someone says ashikukuye instead of hakukuye.
S: Ah.
O: Yes.
S: Then it is someone from Gécamines.
O: From Gécamines. Especially when you ask a child, is your father in? (The answer will be) ashinako (he isn’t). What he says is baba haiko, hana (Father isn’t here, he is not).27
20. S: ...?... masomo: banaf: banafunda tena Swahili?
O: hapana/
S: paka Français/
O: paka Français/
S: kutoka prime: eh: première?
O: mm/ habafunde tena/ habafunde tena: Swahili/
S: alafu kama ba: kama: niliona kama: donc: bafu: banafunda: eh: Français/ alafu kama banatoka/ hata: hata professeur ao moniteur:
O: mm/
S: kama anasumbulia na batoto/
O: mm/
S: anasumbulia: njo lugha gani?
O: kama banatoka ku masono ao ndani ya masomo?
S: hata ya ba: ya masomo kama beko na: na...
O: kuko wakati ingine: anaweza ku: batasema Français na batoto/
S: mm/
O: kuko mu saa ingine tena: yeye anaacha Français: anaanza kusema:
S: Swahili/
O: Kiswahili na batoto/
S: mm/
O: mm/ sawa kwa kuonyesha mototo hasikie kabisa: anaweza kumuambia: hivi ni Français: anamuambia mu Kiswahili/
S: ah bon/
O: lakini hii maneno iko ngumu...
S: anaf: analeta ku explication/
O: na na na mu anajua mutoto apate kusikia muzuri/
S: [overlapping] kwa: kuelezea...
O: anamuelezea: anasema mu Français: kiisha anasema: kusema hivi: ni kusema hivi mu Kiswahili/
S: c’est ça/
O: mm/
S: c’est ça/
O: tu hivi/
20. S: Is Swahili still learned in schools?
O: No.
S: Only French.
O: Only French.
S: Beginning with first grade?
O: Mm. They no longer learn Swahili.
S: Still, I observed that, although they learn French, when they go outside, even the secondary or elementary school teacher...
O: Mm.
S: ... when he chats with the children...
O: Mm.
S: ... what is the language he uses?
O: When they go outside or in the classroom?
S: Even during class when they...
O: It can happen sometimes that they will talk French with the children.
S: (You mean) Swahili.
O: (Yes, he speaks) Swahili to the children.
S: Mm.
O: To make things clear to a child who doesn’t really understand he may tell the child this is how it is in French and is how it said in Swahili.
S: I see.
O: If there is a problem.
S: He gives an explanation
O: He knows that the child really understands.
S: [overlapping] be explaining...
O: He explains to him, saying it in French (first) and then telling him what is means in Swahili.
S: That’s it.
O: Exactly.
21. S: wee unasemaka lugha ngapi? mingi/
O: mi niko nasema: lugha mingi/ hapana mingi kabisa/ minaweza kuhesabia/
S: sabia?
O: minaweza kubalula/
S: balula?
O: eeh/
S: kubalula ni kusema: ndiyo/
O: eeh: [claps] kubalula minawe: minasemaka Français: minasema: Lingala:
S: mm/
O: minasema Kiswahili:
S: ulikala mu: mu:
O: mu Kinshasa/
S: wa:: wakati gani?
O: nilifanya mwaka tatu/ nilienda: mu: nilifanya tuseme maka: mwaka mbili/ minaenda mu soixante huit: minarudia mu septante/
S: ...?... ? hata sasa? kutumika kule?
O: aah: nilienda kule ku radio ya: ya Kinshasa/
S: aah/
O: njo kule minayua Lingala/ kiisha tena nilikwenda ku Mbuji Mayi/ njo sababu minayua thsiLuba/
S: tshiLuba/
O: eeh/ kiisha...
S: hata sasa? ulienda Mbuji Mayi sasa?
O: ndiyo nilienda Mbuji Mayi pake mule mu septante/ minatoka Kinshasa napita Mbuji Mayi: Mbuji Mayi njo minabakia...
S: kuf: kutumika ku speakerine?
O: paka: ki paka ku speakerine/
S: mm/
O:: kujua kazi gani banafanya kule/
S: mm/
O: na hii service ya éducation de la masse/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: na [hesistates]: kumbe ni: Lingala/ Swahili/
O: Lingala: Swahili: Français:
S: [overlapping] Français: tshiLuba:
O: tshiLuba: Lunda: Ndembo: aah: minayua/ na kiBemba/ tshiBemba/
S: tshiBemba? we unasemaka?
O: nasemaka/ na u: ku sasa: minaweza kukuambia kama: lugha yote ya humu mu Shaba/ yote/ niko nasikia/ kuna ingine minapima kusema: ingine mi siseme: lakini minachugia tu yote/
S: mm/ kiLuba?
O: kiLuba ya Shaba?
S: mm/
O: ah: minasikia yote/
S: mm/
O: kiSanga: minasikia/ kiBemba...
S: kusema? kiloko?
O: eh: kusema kiloko/ lakini: kinywa yote ya humu Shaba minasikia/
S: mm/
O: mm/ na mule mu région ya Kasai: minayua tshiLuba: nasikia kiKabinda/ kiSongye/
S: kiSongye?
O: mm/
S: eyo/ inaachana sana?
O: ah inaachana sana/
S: na kiLuba na kiLulua?
O: kabisa/ kiLuba na kiLulua nayo inaachana/
S: mm/
O: namna ya kuprononcer/ minayua tshiLuba: mi siyue kiLulua/
S: eyo?
O: eeh/
21. S: How many languages do you speak? Many.
O: I speak many languages. Not really that many. I can kuhesabia.
S: Sibia?28
O: I can count them.
S: Count?
O: Yes.
S: Count means tell (me what they are), yes.
O: Yes. [claps] Counting, I would say French, Lingala.
S: Mm.
O: Swahili.
S: You used to live in...
O: in Kinshasa.
S: When was that?
O: (There) I did three years. I went there and did, lets say, two years. I went there in sixty-eight and came back in seventy.
S: So this was recently. Was it work there?
O: Yes, I went there to (work at) radio Kinshasa.
S: I see.
O: From there I know Lingala. After that I went also to Mbuji Mayi. That was because I know tshiLluba.
S: TshiLuba
O: Yes, then...
S: Recently? Did you go to Mbuji Mayi just now?
O: Yes, I went to Mbuji May in seventy. I left Kinshasa and went through Mbuji Mayi. In Mbuji Mayi I stayed...
S: Working as an announcer?
O: As an announcer, yes.
S: Mm.
O: To get to know the work they do there.
S: Mm.
O: In the service of mass education.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: So [hesitates] it is Lingala, Swahili.
O: Lingala, Swahili, French.
S: [overlapping] French, tshiLuba.
O: Tshiluba, Lunda, Ndembo, yes, I know (those languages). And kiBemba, tshiBemba.
S: TshiBemba? You speak it?
O: I speak it. I can tell you right now that (I know) all the languages (spoken) here in Shaba. All of them I understand. There are some I try to speak. I may not speak some but I picked up something from all of them.
S: Mm. What about kiLuba?
O: KiLuba of Shaba?
S: Mm.
O: Well, I understand everything.
S: But speaking it? Only a little?
O: Yes, speaking only a little. Still, I understand every language here in Shaba.
S: Mm.
O: Mm. And in the Kasai region I know tshiLuba and I understand kiKabinda, kiSongye.
S: KiSongye?
O: Mm.
S: I see. Is it very different?
O: Yes, it is quite different.
S: And what about kiLuba (compared to) kiLulua?
O: A big difference. KiLuba and KiLulua are different..
S: Mm.
O: In their pronunciation. I know tshiLuba but I don’t know kiLulua.
S: Really?
O: Yes.
22. S: sasa ongoye kiloko: [turn cassette] ...na kintu: kiloko ya: kuuliza ya mwisho/
O: ndiyo/
S: sasa hii: avenir: ita: wakati itakayokuja/ ya wanamuke humu/ unaona namna gani?
O: wakati...
S: wee/ ya: hii: avenir yabo/ mm?
O: mm/
S: batafanya nini? bata: ingia mu kazi ao bataendelea paka sawa na familles yabo: kuchunga batoto: ao?
O: lakini: mm: [hesitates] lazima: kula: kule kwa: bale banamuke beko na baati ya kuolewa/ bale baliolewa/
S: kuolewa/
O: mm/
S: oui/
O: bale banaowelewa banaweza kuikala ao ao anaikala bila kazi: anaweza kuchunga batoto/
S: mm/
O: lakini kwa wanamuke ule hakukuwa na baati ya kuolewa: inapashwa kutumika: kazi yote hata ya mikono/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: hata ya mikono?
O: hata ya mikono/ sawa vile anaweza kushuka: manguo yake anauzisha: naweza kushona: eh: watu wengine watamuletea manguo ya kushona:
S: mm/
O: ao kufula tu/
S: kufula?
O: mm/ inapasha tu kutumika hata...
S: fula manguo?
O: ndiyo/
S: sasa niliona kama banaanza kutumika kwa: hata kwa wazungu/ ku...
O: ah sikie...
S: zamani haba: ah...
O: habakuwa napenda/ ni sasa ile saa mina: minasema kufula:
S: mm/
O: anaweza kutumika ao kwa muzungu ao tu kwa mutu:
S: ndiyo/
O: ule unaona asema: ni muntu wa kabila anaweza kunilipa mwisho wa mwezi/
S: mm/
O: kazi yote tu ni ya lazima hapa duniani/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: hata mu: usine?
O: ah: mu usine inafaa kuangaria kama ni kazi gani/ kama banamupatia kazi kule ku usine: kama kuku mabureaux: kazi ya kukulopa:
S: mm/
O: anaweza kutumika/
S: haina kazi: sawa kazi ingine? ya ku mashini?
O: kazi ya mashini kama ni muntu alifunda/ ya mashini ya? mu chapu?
S: hata mu Tabazaire/
O: ni ku Tabazaire: kuko bantu banatumika/ sawa vile kule kutrier/
S: mwanmuke?
O: aah/
S: ku mashini?
O: hapana: sawa...
S: kulongopa tu?
O: hapana/ ku mashini hapana: ku mashini banatumika: sawa ku Solbena/
S: aha/
O: banamuke banatumika: na kule ku VAP: ku kufanya biscuit/
S: Solbena banafanyaka: manguo?
O: eh: kushona eeh/
S: kushona/ hapana kushona: ku:
O: ku: kufanya nani? kutengeneza: ndanda/ mbele kuanza: inaanza...
S: c’est ça/
O: ... kamba ao: kupita huku kupita huku: na vile itafika ku manguo/
S: mm/
O: eeh/ banapashwa kutumika/
S: hata mu Gécamines bata: bataweza kutumika/
O: mm/ [with a skeptical chuckle] mu Gécamines kazi iko nguvu sana ya mwanamuke/
S: mara ingine: ni kazi: haina: kazi ya kulima ni nguvu sana/
O: kazi...
S: ndiyo/ kazi ya kulima/
O: mm/
S: si njo: si vile?
O: hata kazi ya kulima kama kuko namna ya kulima mu Gécamines hapa sasa...
S: mara ingine mwanamuke ataweza kuwa: nani: menusier/
O: lakini mi bado kuona/
S: non?
O: mm/ mwanamuke kazi yote anatumika lakini: mi siaone menusier: mi siaone maçon/
S: maçon hapana/
O: mm: mi bado kuona/ kazi ingine yote mwanamuke...
S: machauffeurs ya taxi banafanya...
O: oh sana/ ile iko/ ni: mara mingi/ ile banatumika maneno minajua na benye kutumika kazi ya taxi bananmuke/
S: mm/
O: ndiyo/ paka ile kazi ya kuyenga: na kazi ya chuma: ile siaone: mécanisme: siaone/
S: mm/
O: eeh/ lakini kule ku kazi ya radio: mi sikuona banamuke ...?...
S: sasa: sawa vile tunafanya mobylettes/ c’est ça/
O: mm/
S: mm/ mara mingi mu Bulaya banafanya sawa: beko na watoto/
O: niko naona tena sasa banamuke: banatumika kule ku mapompes d’essence/
S: pompes d’essence: c’est ça/ c’est ça/ ah: mara ingine: bibi na baba beko na: na matoto: batoto: alafu: bote bawili banatumika/ eh?
O: ndiyo/
S: na: na mara ingine nkambo anachunga wa: watoto:
O: ndiyo njo mara mingi iko inatendeka: bibi na bwana banaweza kutumika: ao mama wa bibi ao mama wa bwana anweza kuwachungia watoto/
S: mm/
O: ile saa eko mu kazi/ ao kama banapata muntu wa kazi/
S: mm/
O: wa moya muzuri wa kuweza kuwachungia watoto/ banaweza kutumika bwana na bibi/
S: mm/
O: he/ [inhaling]
S: alafu: paka hii kazi: unaona sawa vile kama: iko kazi ya mwanamuke: na kazi ya mwanaume?
O: mm/
S: inaachana/ inaachana juu ya nguvu yake ao juu ya maana yake?
O: ee: kazi ya mwanamuke: na kazi ya mwanaume inaweza kuachana/ inaachana sababu ya nini? kwa sababu sisi: kwa wanawake: mara mingi kama: kile kiko anachokesha banamuke mara ingine kuacha kazi ndiyo: ni juu ya kuzala/ kama anakuwa na batoto mingi: namna ya kwenda ku kazi: kama anaona ule muntu: wana na muntu wa kabaila/
S: mm/
O: wa kuweza kumuchungia batoto: njo maana ya kuacha kazi yake/
S: mm/
O: mm/
S: na ni muzuri kuwa wamingi mingi tu?
O: lakini hapana kuwa bamingi kabisa inapasha tu kuwa na batoto/ basipite mingi/
S: mm/
O: eeh/
S: sawa kumi: kumi/
O: hapana/ kama inakuwa ku naenda muzuri/ maneno hakuna namna ya kubafundisha/
S: c’est ça/
O: banakupita kipimo/ mutototo anapasha kuwa: mupaka pa tano: inaenea/ mm/
S: paka tano/
O: mm/
S: c’est ça/ [checking the tape] ni hii enaenea vile vile/ [short interruption of recording]
22. S: Now – wait a minute [turn cassette]... I have one last question.
O: Yes.
S: It is about the future of women here, how do you see this?
O: The time...
S: Their future. Mm?
O: Mm.
S: What are they going to do? Will they take jobs, or will the just go on (taking care of) their families, look after their children, or?
O: Well. Mm. [hesitates] One must eat. There are those women who have the luck to be married. Those who were married.
S: Getting married.
O: Mm.
S: Yes.
O: Among those who are married a woman can stay (at home) without a job and look after the children.
S: Mm.
O: Whereas a woman who did not have the luck to get married must work and take any job, even manual labor.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: Even manual labor?
O: Even manual labor. For instance, she could make clothes and sell them, she could do sewing, others may bring clothes to her for sewing.
S: Mm.
O: Or just do laundry.
S: Laundry?
O: Mm. She simply must work, even...
S: Washing clothes?29
O: Yes.
S: Recently I observed that they are beginning to work for Europeans.
O: Well, listen...
S: That did not use to be the case in the past...
O: They did’nt like to do that. Nowadays – I just mentioned doing laundry.
S: Mm.
O: (A woman) can do this work for a European or an African.
S: Yes.
O: You see, she may find someone from the same ethnic group, telling herself, he can pay me at the end of the month.
S: Mm.
O: Here on earth every kind of work is appropriate.
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: Even (working in) a factory?
O: Well, in a factory one must see what kind of work there is. It may be that they give you a job there in a factory if there are offices to clean up.
S: Mm.
O: (A woman) can do that kind of work.
S: Is there no other kind of job? (Like operating) a machine?
O: Operating a machine, if the person was trained (for this job). What kind of machine?
In a shop?
S: Even at Tabazaire.
O: At Tabazaire there are people who work there, for instance, where the sorting is done.
S: Women?
O: Yes.
S: At a machine?
O: No, as...
S: Just cleaning?
O: No. (They work in production but) not with machines, they do this at places like Solbena.
S: I see.
O: Women work at VAP, making cookies.
S: At Solbena they make cloth?
O: Yes, sewing.
S: Sewing. Not sewing...
O: What are they doing again? Weaving cotton. You first begin...
S: That’s it.
O: ...with yarn, it goes this way and that and that is how pieces of cloth come out.
S: Mm.
O: Yes. (Women) must work.
S: Even at Gécamines they should be able to work.
O: Mm. [with a skeptical chuckle] At Gécamines work is too hard for a woman.
S: But then, this kind of work is not – cultivating is really hard work.
O: The work...
S: Yes, the work of cultivating.
O: Mm.
S: Isn’t it?
O: It could be the work of cultivating as soon as cultivating is possible on Gécamines (property).
S: Perhaps a woman could be, let’s see, a carpenter?
O: But that I never saw so far.
S: No?
O: Mm. A woman does all kinds of work but I havn’t seen a carpenter, nor have I seen a bricklayer.
S: No bricklayer.
O: Mm. That I haven’t seen as yet. All other jobs, women...
S: (...work as) taxi drivers, they do that...
O: Oh, and how. Of those there are many. That is work they do because I know a woman who works as a taxi driver.
S: Mm.
O: Yes. Only, (women doing) construction work, or metal work, things mechanical, I haven’t seen.
S: Mm.
O: Yes. Whereas there at my work at the radio I haven’t seen women...?...30
S: Now, take the example of making mopeds. That’s (a good example).
O: Mm.
S: Mm. In Europe often (women) work in production and they still have children.
O: I also see that nowadays women work at filling stations.
S: At filling stations, that’s it. That’s (a good example). Now, often wife and husband have children but both of them work, right?
O: Yes.
S: And sometimes a grandparent takes care of the children.
O: Yes, that is done many times. Wife and husband can work and either the wife’s or the husband’s mother can watch the children.
S: Mm.
O: During the time a person is away at work. Or they can get a servant.
S: Mm.
O: Someone who is good and can take care of the children. (In that case) husband and wife can work.
S: Mm.
O: Yes.31
S: Still, as far as work is concerned you think that there are jobs for women and jobs for men?
O: Mm.
S: That there is a difference. Is that difference one of strength (required) or is it one of the kind of work?
O: Well, women’s work and men’s work can be different. What makes it different? It is a fact, that for us women, the thing that often puts a burden on us and often makes us give up a job, is having children (lit. giving birth). If you have many children, there is (only) one way you can go out working. If you look at those (who do that you’ll find) they are those who live with (lit. are with, have) a person of importance.32
S: Mm.
O: (Having) someone who can watch her children. That way she can leave her work (at home).
S: Mm.
O: Mm.
S: And is it good to have many (children)?
O: (Yes) but there should not be too many. One should have children but not too many. S: Mm.
O: Yes.
S: About ten.
O: No, not if things are to go well. Because otherwise there is no way you can teach them.
S: That’s it.
O: If there are too many. There should be just about five, that’s enough. Mm.
S: Only five.
O: Mm.
S: That’s it. [checking the tape] This is also running out (lit. enough). [short interruption of recording]
23. alafu: mara ingine wee uko na kintu ya kunikuliza/
O: ni: kitu ya kukuuliza: mina: nitakuuliza tu asema: ni lazima gani uko nayo juu ya: kufwatana na maulizo ya batu: ni juu ya...
S: ah bon/
O: mm/
S: sawa vile...
O: [overlapping] maneno ku mwanzo uliniambia ya kama: uliisha kuuliza banamuke banaume bengine: juu ya makazi yabo: juu ya maisha ya muntu/
S: c’est ça/
O: sasa: leo unaniuliza na mi/ kwako weye na weye: maulizo yetu:
S: mm/
O: eh? ni juu ya: kusikia: ao ni juu ya kuyua kama: muntu anapasha kuishi namna gani?
S: ni kusema: kwanza: ni: ni: nazani ni bintu mbili/
O: ndiyo/
S: kwanza: inafaa kusikia namna ya bantu/ eh?
O: ndiyo/
S: c’est à dire mawazo yake: maisha yake: yabo: banaikala namna gani na: maneno shee tuko wageni/
O: ndiyo/
S: mufika humu:
O: mm/
S: fika na waz: mawazo yetu/
O: mm/
S: tuanona tunaona: alafu tunaona paka inje/
O: mm/ ndani hamujui/
S: mm?
O: ndiyo/
S: njo kazi ya kwanza/
O: mm/
S: ni ku: ni kujikaza ya: jua muntu...?...
O:...kufanya: ndiyo/
S: kama yee atoshe hii mawazo yake/ njo mu: njo kintu ya: ya kwanza/ kintu ya ingine: ji: njo kazi yangu minafanya ku université: ni kufunda lugha/
O: ndiyo/
S: eh? sasa: kufunda lugha: yote: haiwezikane/ hata Swahili/
O: mm/
S: nitafanya namna gani? inafaa kuwa na: na kitu kimoja: ya kufwata/
O: ndiyo/
S: sasa hii kitu kimoja nilichagula: ni: kazi/
O: mm/
S: mm?
O: mm/
S: sasa: bantu banasikilizana juu ya kazi namna gani?
O: mm/
S: mm? banasemaka Swahili yabo...
O: ...namna gani?
S: namna gani/ namna gani/ njo...?...
O: mm/
S: mm? njo ni: njo si: si yote eh? ingine mingi mingi inabakia/ kazi...
O: ni kusema weye uko naye tu lazima kabisa:
S: ya:
O: ni juu ya kazi/
S: ni juu ya kazi/
O: eeh/
S: mm? kumbe: sasa: minaanza: nilianza ku: ku humu mu atélier/
O: mm/
S: kusumbulia na bantu:
O: mm/
S: kuuliza neno ya: ya bintu:
O: ndiyo/
S: mm?
O: mm/
S: kusikia sawa vile banasemaka: sawa vile banasikilizana:
O: mm/
S: sawa vile banaleta kuko na: ordres/ commander:
O: mm/
S: mm?
O: ndiyo/
S: na kiisha yake: na: na: natafuta: ah: kupata mawazo yake tena/
O: ndiyo/
S: mm?
O: mm/
S: sawa: sawa vile anawaza juu: ya kazi yake:
O: kazi yake ndiyo/
S: kiisha kazi yangu inaanza/ sawa vile unasema: kuan: uli: uliona: paka kuandika kuandika kuandika/ alafu kuandika ni paka mwanzo/
O: ndiyo/
S: mm?
O: ku mwisho?
S: ku mwanzo: minaandika/
O: mm/
S: sasa mi niko naye/ [touches recorder] sasa minaf: inafaa nisome:
O: kusikia na maana yake/
S: c’est ça/
O: mm/ ndiyo/
S: sasa nitakuwa: ni kazi kama: kazi yangu ita: itaisha: nakuwa na pages: elfu mbili/
O: mm/ sasa: kitu ingine minaweza kukuuliza/
S: mm/
O: hii inye kazi yako: pale utaisha yote: utafanyaka bitabu?
S: ndiyo/
O: mm/
S: ndiyo/ sawa vile nilifanyaka juu ya: ya Jamaa/
O: mm/
S: sina naye: [pointing] njo: ni manuscript ya ingine ule/
O: ndiyo/
S: mais: moya ilifanaka/ ili: ilitoka...
O: ilitoka kitabu/
S: hii copie: niko paka na copie moya: na: na anasoma sasa/
O: ndiyo/
S: alafu nitaweza kukuonyesha maarticles [reaches for papers] ingine nili... una: unauliza namna gani? sababu gani? ya bitabu/
O: eh: minauliza sababu ya bitabu kwa sababu: kazi yote inapashwa inakuwa na lazima/ hauwezi kutumika tu hii kazi: kwenda hivi bule...
S: non non non/ non/
O: inapashwa/ njo maana minayua kama: hapa uko naandika/ unajua kazi: unauliza: unaandika/ mwisho yake/ maneno kama unaandika hivi: inafaa kukuwe kitu kimoja/
S: mina: minaandika bafu: kama bantu bafunde/
O: eeh ndiyo/ njo ile ni kabisa minatafuta maneno siku ingine: hata kama we haunako: moya muntu ingine anasoma kitabu: anasema hii ni akili ya: ya [recording ends]
23. But perhaps there is something you want to ask me.
O: There is something I am going to ask you. Going after people with your questions, is it about...
S: I see.
O: Mm.
S: Like...
O: [overlapping] Because in the beginning you told me that you had asked other women and men about their jobs and about their life.
S: That’s right.
O: Now, today you are asking me. As far as you are concerned, the questions we discussed...
S: Mm.
O: Right? Was this just something to listen to,33 or was it about knowing how a person should live?
S: That is to say, to begin with, I think there are two things.
O: Yes.
S: First one must understand how people (think), right?
O: Yes.
S: In other words, a person’s ideas, his life, how people live – because we are strangers (here).
O: Yes.
S: When we get here...
O: Mm.
S: ... we come with our ideas.
O: Mm.
S: We keep seeing (things), but we only see the outside.
O: Mm. You don’t know what is inside.
S: Mm?
O: Yes.
S: That’s the first task.
O: Mm.
S: It means to make an effort to get to know a person...?...
O: Doing that, yes.
S: Get him to express his thoughts. That’s the first thing. The other thing, and that is my work at the university, is to study language.
O: Yes.
S: Right. Now, it is impossible to learn all languages. Even (to have a perfect command of) Swahili.
O: Mm.
S: So how am I going (to do my work)? There must be one subject to stick to.
O: Yes.
S: Now, that one subject I chose was work.
O: Mm.
S: Mm?
O: Mm.
S: How do people communicate about work?
O: Mm.
S: Mm? When they speak their Swahili...
O: ...how do they do this?
S: It is the how. How (they speak). This is ...?...
O: Mm.
S: Mm? (But) that is not all, right? Work...
O: That means, what you are doing really has a purpose.
S: About...
O: It is about work.
S: It is about work.
O: Yes.
S: Mm? Therefore, right now, I began (with research) here in a work shop.34
O: Mm.
S: Talking with people.
O: Mm.
S: Asking about terms for things.
O: Yes.
S: Mm?
O: Mm.
S: Listen to how they talk, how they communicate among each other.
O: Mm.
S: How they give orders.
O: Mm.
S: Mm?
O: Yes.
S: And then I trying to get to know the reflections of a person.
O: Yes.
S: Mm?
O: Mm.
S: How he thinks about his work.
O: His work, yes.
S: And then my work begins. As you said and observed, it is recording, recording, recording. But even recording is only a beginning.
O: Yes.
S: Mm?
O: (And what comes) in the end?
S: In the beginning it is recording.
O: Mm.
S: So now I have (the recording) [touches the recorder]. Then I must listen.35
O: Understand what it means.
S: That’s it.
O: Mm. Yes.
S: Then I’ll have work to do and when it is finished I’ll have two thousand pages (in writing).
O: Mm. Now I could ask you another question.
S: Mm.
O: When you have finished with this work of yours, are you going to write a book?
S: Yes.
O: Mm.
S: Yes, like the book I did about the Jamaa.
O: Mm.
S: I don’t have it with me, [pointing] this is the manuscript of another one.36
O: Yes.
S: But one (book on the Jamaa) got done, it appeared...
O: It appeared as a book.
S: I have only one copy with me, someone is reading it.
O: Yes.
S: But I could show you some other articles I did.... [reaches for papers] Why is it you ask about books?
O: Well, I ask about books because every undertaking must have a purpose. You can’t just go on working and then go away with nothing.
S: No, no, no. No.
O: There must be (a purpose). That’s how I know, when you do recordings, you know your job, you ask and you record. Because when you keep recording like this, in the end it must amount to something.
S: I write so people will learn.
O: Yes, right. That is really what I am after. Because some day when you are no longer here another person may read the book, telling himself, this is the reason behind... [recording ends]

 

 


Notes

1 In Swahili I had mistakenly said "women;" I got it right in the following part of the sentence.
2 Here I had trouble formulating the sentence; the reference is to a piece of improvised theater about work I had recorded with Mufwankolo and three other actors, among them Mujinga.
3 I am not sure where this was. Signal could refer to traffic lights or a radio/television transmitter.
4 Mujinga says bukweli, lit. "a state of truth," the local expression for a proper marriage, part of which is living together.
5 On another occasion Mujinga had told me that this explained her actor’s name in the Mufwankolo troupe: balimuacha, they left her.
6 Unless an English gloss suggests itself I shall leave this and similar designations (see below) untranslated.
7 A foyer social was part of the mining company towns in Katanga. Apart from a bar and dance hall, it had classrooms (for adult education), larger rooms for community gatherings or for showing films, and sports-facilities.
8 They were also known as assistantes sociales, a catholic community of social workers employed by municipal authorities and the mining company (or its subsidiaries).
9 Here and later I used eyo, kiLuba for assent, approval, or, as a question, for surprise.
10 Something is confusing here. I think what Mujinga wanted to say was that she would have preferred to work for one of the assistantes sociales.
11 The official name was livret de travail, a document of a person’s work history (it is also mentioned in the conversation with Baba Ngoie elsewhere in this archive).
12 Mujinga used French terms derived from English, speakerine and (a little later) speakage, which I translate as announcer though her job included that of a broadcaster and presenter of programs (see below).
13 Probably programme should here read as "column" (in a paper); later Mujinga had a television program with the same name, something like "Women’s Forum."
14 Kafubu, a river, became the common name of the Salesian mission founded on its banks. A printing press was part of the school system run by the order.
15 Under Mobutu "zone" became the official designation for urban divisions; the idea was to end colonial distinctions between ville, the city reserved for Europeans, and cités, African townships and workers’ settlements.
16 I am not sure that I have this right. Mujinga may have been saying that, while this was one and the same undertaking, it was under the responsibility of the respective municipal authorities.
17 The dictionary gives the meaning as "host" but under Mobuto, animateurs and animatrices were the singers and dancers, dressed in Party costume, who did animation, performing at public functions and Party meetings.
18 I repeated the expression Mujinga used, kupindula, turn or turn around, probably because I had not heard it yet in the sense of "to translate."
19 Mujinga actually said iwe, which concords with kazi. I think this was a subtle way of taking her distance form the MPR: it is the job, rather than the person, who must be "in the Party."
20 As I remember, Kasongo was a (male) announcer and newscaster; Bibi Kawa was the stage name of a fellow actress of Mujinga’s in the Mufwankolo troupe.
21 My question was to invite Mujinga to tell me more about the organization of the MPR but she did not elaborate.
22 This was a reference to Mobutist propaganda for rural development.
23 I asked again because I had not understood the word muno. It is the (rarely used) local form of mno, too much; the more current qualifiers for excess are zaidi or ya kupita.
24 This is my best try at translating the subtleties Mujinga conveys, such as the contrast between kujua, as in "to know something" or "be able to do something" and kufahamu, as in "to be acquainted with/ know a person" or "be familiar with a place or subject." I think she had a grasp of ethnography as producing knowledge through experience. Notice that she also speaks first of lazima, the necessity, of a subject of knowledge, not of its meaning, purpose, function, and so forth.
25 The term is mujinga, not to be confused with Mujinga’s homonymous name, which is current in many languages of the area as a name given to children born with the umbilical cord around their neck.
26 Similar examples were given by Pungwe in Text 4 (and I recall them from many others speakers). The distinctive "difference" is as(h)i-, used to mark negation in verbforms. Its (probable) origin in Fanagalo makes the form appear emblematic for workers’ Swahili even though it is, as far as I remember, only attributed to children in the camps talking about their parents, as in Mujinga’s example below. Notice also that, despite her assertion that there are lots of examples, she has trouble thinking of any; the one she comes up with is just another negative verbform.
27 Here Mujinga makes her point with negative forms that are correct but not idiomatic in Katanga.
28 I did not know the verb kushesabia, to reckon.
29 I repeated the question, probably because I was somehow savoring the phrase kufula manguo, lit. beating cloth (when the washing is done in a river, clothes are soaked, twisted, and beaten against a stone). Kufula is also what a smith does when he hammers a piece of metal into shape.
30 On the recording the end of the sentence is incomprehensible. As the context suggests, Mujinga meant "men" when she said "women."
31 Here Mujinga signals assent by a sound produced by inhaling. Only women seem to use this (polite) form of expressing agreement.
32 I think muntu wa kabaila refers to a husband who has the means to pay for child care.
33 Here and in the following the verb kusikia poses problems. Aside from hearing/ listening it can have many meanings that seem to cluster around two poles, perception (esp. sensual perception, hence kusikia can also mean to taste, to smell, to feel) and comprehension (understanding the sense of something perceived).
34 This refers to recordings made in the Atelier Chenge, documented in Texts 3 and 4.
35 Lit. I must read (kusoma) hear in contrast with kuandika, to write but also to record.
36 I was pointing to a manuscript I had finished in 1972, just before returning to Katanga. It was titled "Anthropology and Interpretation. Essays on the Thought of the Jamaa Movement."



[Introduction]

[Text One]

[Text Two]

[Text Three]

[Text Four]

[Text Five]

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© Johannes Fabian
The URL of this page is: http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/vol10/languageandlabor5.html
Deposited at APS: 8 October 2008