Recorded June 21, 1973 at the home
of Kazadi (no other name on record), an assistant supervisor, also in the workers'
|1.||S: pa kwanza: ah: minauliza sawa:
histoire ya: maisha yako/ mais wee uko mutoto/
S: hauna na histoire / [laughs]
O: histoire ya maisha yangu?
S: uli: ulizaliwa wapi?
O: paka humu/
S: paka humu?
O: mu maternité ya mu Kolwezi/
S: maternité mu Kolwezi?
S: na baba yako: yee alikuwa kutumika wapi?
O: angaliki natumika hapa mu Gécamines/
S: mu Gécamines/
S: ah mu Kolwezi?
O: mbele alikuwa mu Kolwezi: sasa anaikalaka Musonoi mais ...?... kutumika paka humu: mu Gécamines/
S: ah oui/ na mwaka: kumbe uko dix-neuf: ulizaliwa quarante ...
O: mu cinquante quatre/
S: cinquante quatre oui/ cinquante quatre/ kumbe: juu ya: ya école/ wee ulifanya école gani?
O: mbele tulienda ...
S: acha: acha... [interrupt to adjust recorder]
O: primaire ya mu Kolwezi mbele/ six ans ...
S: primaire: six ans primaire/
O: kiisha minaenda ku Ruwe: Mutoshi hapa sasa/
S: ulifanya miaka ngapi mu Mutoshi?
S: cinq ans/
O: mm: mu section hydro-métallurgique/
S: njo kutoka mwanzo ulikuwa specialisé na hydro-métallurgie?
O: mbele si minafanya nani: deux années ya cycle d'orientation/
O: kiisha mu troisième: njo pale ...?... ku masomo eh?
O: mbele nilikuwa électricien mu troisième/ minakuwa: une annee ya électricité: kiisha sasa métallurgie inakuwa kuya/ bengine banaanzia mu troisième ba ile année/ sasa minachanger masections/ minaanza métallurgie ku quatrieme/
O: na mu cinquième/ banacouper ile mamatières yote ya mu troisième année: banacouper mu quatrième na mu cinquième/
O: hapa sasa tulikuya/
|1.||S: To begin with, what I am going
to ask for is the story of your life - although you are still a child.
S: You don't have a history [laughs].
O: The story of my life?
S: Where were you born?
O: Right here.
S: Right here?
O: In the maternity ward in Kolwezi.
S: The maternity ward in Kolwezi?
S: And were did your father work?
O: At that time he worked here at Gécamines.
S: At Gécamines.
S: Ah, in Kolwezi?
O: First he was in Kolwezi, now he lives in Musoni but ...?... he worked here at Gécamines.
S: Ah yes. And the year - so, you are nineteen, you were born in (nineteen) forty...
O: In fifty-four.
S: Fifty-four, yes. Fifty-four. Then, about the school. What kind of school did you go to?
O: First we went...
S: Wait a minute [interrupt to adjust recorder]...
O: ... to primary school. Six years of primary school.
S: Primary school. Six years of primary school.
O: Then I went to Ruwe, now (called) Mutoshi.
S: How many years (did you do) in Mutoshi?1
S: Five years.
O: Yes, in the hydro-metallurgy section.
S: That means you specialized in hydro-metallurgy from the beginning?
O: Of course, first I did two years of introductory courses.
O: Then, it was in the third year that ...?... at school, right?
O: First I (studied to be) an electrician, in third grade. I did one year of electricity, after that came metallurgy. There were some in that grade that started (metallurgy) in the third year. So I changes sections and began with metallurgy in the fourth year.
O: And in the fifth year. All these subject would be changed (lit. cut) in the third year, they would change in the fourth and fifth year.
O: So there we were.2
|2.||S: na: bon/ kiisha ulipata: ulipata
certificat. ao nani: diplome: na nani? banakupatia...
O: ... brevet d'aptitude professionelle/
S: na brevet? Mm?
O: aptitude professionnelle/ na diplôme: diplôme privé/
S: njo diplôme privé?
O: kiisha: mbele nilitafuta kutumika mu Gécamines eh?
O: et puis: kulikuwa sawa ma: madifficultés/ ku mwanzo mwanzo asema: pa kutumika inafaa kuya na dix huit ans/
O: sasa ile saa mi niliisha kuwa na dix sept/
O: banaanza kunisema ongojee mwaka moya: nirudie ku masomo: ou bien: ao niongojee mwaka moya mu komponi/ njo pale: mi préférer kuya humu/ sasa minafika bananitikia/ minaanza kutumika/
S: mu mwaka gani? sasa? hii: hii mwaka ilipita?
O: hapa sasa ni ma: mwaka moya: tena mitaisha miaka mbili mu huitième mois/ sawa nitaenda mu congé/ congé légal/
S: ah oui? ulifanya déjà ...
O: minaisha kufanya mwaka moya/
S: mwaka moya/
O: mm/ hii njo ya mpili sasa/
|2.||S: Alright. In the end you got
a certificate or a diploma of what? You were given a...
O: ... brevet d'aptitude professionelle.
S: What was the certificate you had?
O: Professional aptitude (attested by) a private diploma.
S: That was a private diploma?
S: And then?
O: Then I first sought work at Gécamines, right?
O: Then there were some difficulties. At the very beginning its was said one had to be eighteen to work.
O: Now, at that time I had just turned seventeen.
O: So they told me to wait for a year. I should go back to school or just wait for a year (living) in the workers' settlement. That's over there, I preferred to be here. When I arrived I was accepted and I began to work.3
S: What year was this? Now or last year?
O: Right now it has been one year, it will be two in August (lit. the eighth month). That is when I will take a regular vacation.
S: Ah yes? You already did...
O: I finished one year.
S: One year.
O: Mm. This one now is the second.
|3.||S: mm/ na: hii mwaka yote uli:
uli: ulikala paka mu kompund? paka ku utoto: kufika sasa?
O: kwa kuikala: kuikala nilianza kuikala kwetu/ mais minaanza naenda kutembeatembea/
S: kutembea wapi?
O: sawa ku Likasi: ku Lubumbashi: ku Mbuji Mayi/
S: Mbuji Mayi?
S: ni: ni ngambo ya baba yako?
O: njo tu mafasi ile ...?... iko bazee/
|3.||S: All these years, did you always
live in a workers' settlement?4 From childhood
to this day?
O: As to living, I first stayed at home but than I began to travel here and there.
S: Travel where?
O: Like to Likasi, to Lubumbashi, to Mbuji Mayi.
S: Mbuji Mayi?
S: Is that where you father came from?
O: It is.
O: There are those places ...?... where the elders are.
|4.||S: unaona: sawa: wee unaona kompund
namna gani? hii maisha yako mu kompund? kama una: tuseme: tunajua namna
ingine ya: sawa cité: ao Forrest: ao Caroline/
O: maneno humu iko bien: kuliko ma: sawa hii maCaroline na maForrest/
S: sababu gani?
O: ...?...njo propreté: inyewe ya cité/ iko un peu sale ...?... kupita ile manani: Caroline ao maForest/
O: kiisha: humu ikoako kimya/
S: haina ...
O: hamuna makelele mingimingi sawa ile mule/ mu ile ngambo/
O: sasa désavantage ya mu: ya mu macités eh: minapréférer ku: sawa kutoka hapa: kama minatoka ku kazi eh? nikuwe na nyumba: fasi: karibu na manyumba ingine: mais yasipo ya bantu bale tunatumika nabo mu: mu fasi moya/ puisque nikalaka saa ingine: unaweza: munaweza kosana sawa mu kazi/ ao: munakosana muntu mu kazi: shee mu komponi ni tena unakuwa kuonana naye/
O: sasa finalement muna: ts: uko paka na ile: iku kukupa ile esprit ya mu kazi kule/ hawachanger...
|4.||S: How do you see a workers' settlement?
This life of yours in a workers' settlement? If you - let's say (life there)
is different from a township, for example, or Caroline and Forrest.5
O: The thing is (life) here is good, better than in places like Caroline and Forrest.
O: ...?... it's the cleanliness of the settlement. (Well,) it is a little dirty ...?... but nothing compared to, say, Caroline or Forrest.
O: An then, there it is calm here.
S: There is no...
O: Here, there is not all that noise you have there, on that side (of town).
O: As to the disadvantage of (life) in the (workers') settlement - I prefer to get out of here, when I am finished with work, right? I should have a house at a place near to other houses but not those of the people we work with in the same place. Because if I were to stay - at a given moment you could get into trouble like at work. Or (let me put it like this) it could happen that you have problems with a person at work and, (we live together) in the settlement you would again see each other.
O: So, in the end you are stuck with this person which puts you back into the frame of mind at work. They don't change....
|5.||S: hauwezi kutoka mu: mu kazi/
S: uko mu kazi mu usine: uko mu kazi ...
O: tena sawa: saa mingi kuwaza paka kazi/
O: masaa kidogo ile saa minaweza kusortir: kwenda sawa mule mu ma: mule macités: minarudia njo/ ni pale minatrouvaka tu bien/ mais kwa namna inyewe ya kuikala minaona humu: kuikala humu njo bien/ kuliko: sawa mu macités ou bien mu Forrest/
S: oui/ banakupa nyumba: pasipo ya kulipa ...?...ni muzuri/ na: kama unarudia ku: kama kazi inaisha: unarudia...
S: unafanya nini ya dis: juu ya distraction/ unasoma kitabu ao?
O: ... saa ingine minasomaka: saa ingine minaenda ku cercle eh/ kuko sawa: minajiinteresser ao ku pingpong/
S: ah bon/
O: oui/ alors ile saa tunacheza pingpong: tunakunywa tunakunywa: tunacheza vile/
O: sasa minaanza kurudia/ kuweza kuwa masiku ingine: ile: kama minafika: mina...?... sawa mu Gécamines: ule mukubwa wangu: minaikala mu kipande: minaenda mu ville kutembea: na kunywako ver moya: kiisha minarudia/
|5.||S: (In other words) you can't
leave your work behind.
S: You are at work in the factory, you are at work...
O: And then you only keep thinking of work for hours.
O: There are few hours when I can go out, when I go to one or the other places (outside the settlement). (And then) I come back and that's it. I like those places but when it comes to living - in my view this is better here than in the townships or in Forrest.
S: Yes. They give you free housing...?... and that is good. And when you come back (to your house) after work is finished...
S: What do you do to take your mind off work? Do you read a book, or what?
O: Sometimes I read, sometimes I go to the cercle.6 I am interested in table tennis, for instance.
S: I see.
O: Yes. So then we play table tennis and drink, we drink and play.
O: Then I get ready to go home. On other days it can happen that I go to the Gécamines settlement where my older brother and stay for a while (or) I go for a stroll in town,7 I have a drink and then I go home.
|6.||juu ya: lugha sasa ya ...
S: non non: ya: ya kinywa/
S: ni kazi yangu zaidi/ na: kama una: ile wakati ulizaliwa: uliisha kukomea: ulisema lugha gani? paka?
O: Swahili na kiKasai/
S: na kiKasai?
O: Kiluba mm/
S: hata sasa unas: unasemaka kiKasai?
O: mais sasa minaanza ukisema: ts: haina sawa mbele eh? juu ku ...?.../ mbele minaanza kusema zaidi: sawa ningaliki mutoto pale ...?... enda mu masomo/ ce que tunafanyaka tunaenda ku mugini: mugini yetu: shee tunarudia/ alors vile naanza kusema pa kwinye kwetu kwa: kwetu minaanza kuzobelea kusema pake vile/
S: uli: ulirudia mu mugini ... kwa congé ao?
O: tuliendaka kutembea mu congé oui/ ah bon/ famille muzima/
O: tulienda kule: shee tulifanya deux ans/ baba yee alirudiaka: na bengine balianza kutumika: haba ba mukongo: balianza kutumika/ anarudia nabo juu ya kazi: tulibakia paka kule na mama/
O: tunafanya kule miaka mbili kiisha tunarudia/
S: mulifanya miaka mbili mu: mu mugini?
O: mm/ ilikuwa mu: minawaza ilikuwa mu cinquante huit/
S: cinquante huit/ mm/
O: tuli: mu cinquante sept minarudia: narudia mu cinquante neuf/
S: wee ulikuwa mutoto/
S: kumbe sasa unasema: unaanza kusahabu ...
O: sasa minaanza kusema mais minaiku: minakwalakwala kama: mi sitrouver tu mamots/
S: munasemaka Tshiluba paka na: na wazazi yako?
O: na ba: bacousins yangu...
S: ah oui/ kumbe mu famille yenu: munasemaka Tshiluba/
O: tume tu: na: bakubwa wangu: eh? ...?... tuko quatre/ na: bakubwa wangu benyewe mu famille yetu: bapère tu na mamère tu moya: bale tunasema nabo Swahili/
O: sasa ba bacousins: juu bo baba yabo alikufa mu mugini eh: sawa balikuwa komela kwetu/ njo bali: na hapa sasa tunazobelea kusema nabo paka nabo: tunasema paka Kiluba/
S: eh: bon/ kwanza ulisema Swahili: eh: Tshiluba: kiisha Swahili: ulifunda Français: unasema lugha ingine?
O: wapi/ Anglais tulifundaka tu kiloko kiloko tu matermes techniques bule/
S: mulifunda: mulifundaka: mu Mutoshi?
O: oui/ mu troisième année/
S: troisième année?
O: kiisha: kiisha bale balifanya cycle long: njo bali: baliendelea na kujiformer jusqu'a sixieme/ sawa shee ba mu cycle court tuliachiako mu troisième: mais: kidoko kule/
|6.||S: About language. Now...
O: Should I speak?
S: No, no, it is about the language (spoken).8
S: This is really what my work is about. If (you remember) the time - you were born and then you grew up - what was the language you spoke?
O: Swahili and Tshiluba.9
S: And Tshiluba?
O: Kiluba, mm.
S: An now, can you still speak Tshiluba.
O: (Yes) but now if I begin to speak it, well, it is no longer like it used to be, right? Because ...?...First I used to speak it a lot, I was still a child at the time...?... (before I) went to school. We would go (back) to the village, our village, and then come back. So that was when I would begin to speak the language (that was spoken) back home, it was there that I became used to it.
S: You returned to the village for vacation, or?
O: We use to go on a trip during vacation, yes. What can I say?10 The whole family.
O: We went there and (once) we spent two years. Father came back (to Katanga) and younger relatives (lit. others who came after) began to work (here). He came back with them because the work and we just stayed there (in the village) with Mother.
O: We spent two year there, then we came back.
S: So you spent two years in the village?
O: Mm. It was, I think, in fifty eight..
S: Fifty eight. Mm.
O: In fifty seven, or rather in fifty nine I came back.
S: So no you say that you are beginning to forget (Tshiluba).
O: I still speak it now but not fluently. (It happens that) I don't find the words.
S: Do you speak Tshiluba only with your parents?
O: And with my cousins.
S: Ah, yes. So in you family you speak Tshiluba.
O: Only with my elders, right? ...?.... there are four of us. And with my older siblings in my family, those who have the same father and mother, we speak Swahili.
O: As to the cousins, (they live with us, because there father died in the village. This is why they grew up with us. With them, even now, we are used to speaking only Tshiluba.
S: Alright, then. First you spoke Swahili, or rather, Tshiluba and then Swahili.11 You learned French, do you speak another language?
O: No. We learned just a little English, only technical terms.
S: I see.
S: You learned that (at school) in Mutoshi?
O: Yes, in the third year.
S: In the third year?
S: After that, those who followed the extended course went on to study (lit. form themselves) until the sixth year whereas we who took the short course stopped (with English) in the third year where we learned only little.
|7.||S: mm/ ah: sawa unaona Swahili
ya hapa: mu hii region yetu/ una: una: s: unaona namna gani? inaendelea:
ao ina: inageuka?
O: ah: lak: namna yangu ya kuona: ni kila muntu tena: iko na namna kya kusema/
S: kila muntu?
O: tume tu kile: kile kipande/
S: mm/ mara ingine wee: sawa mi: mara ingine niko na: minasikia nguvu ya kusikia/ ha? ni sawa: bantu: bantu ba kazi minasikia/ mais: tuseme: babijana: ao: ao wanamuke: mara ingine minasikia nguvu tu ya ...
O: ah bon/
S: ya kusikia/ wee unasikia yote yote yote?
O: minasikiaka tu yote/ mais sawa namna ya kusema: njo vile minaona sema: presque kila muntu iko na namna yake: iko na: paka mamots ingine ingine yo yake/ paka mamots: mais namna inyewe ya yee kusema/
S: ... kwa mufano hii: kama unasikia mu radio: hii journal mu Kiswahili bora/ unasikiaka?
O: bingine bya mingi binanipitaka ya mu bora/
O: mais kama anasema Swahili paka hii shee tunasema: ile minasikia/
|7.||S: Mm. How do you see the Swahili
(spoken) here, in this region where we are? How do you see it? Does it develop
O: Ah, the way I see it, everyone has his way of speaking it.
O: Let's say every part (or the population).
S: Mm. I, for example, sometimes have difficulties understanding (people), right? I understand the workers but, let's say, when it comes to youngsters or women I
I sometimes find it difficult to...
O: Ah, alright.
S: ... understand. Do you understand absolutely everything?
O: I understand everything. But when it comes to ways of speaking, the way I see it, almost every person has his or her way. (But the difference has to do) with certain words a person uses. It's only words while the way of speaking as such (is not really different).
S: (To take) an example: When you listen to the radio, the news in refined Swahili, do you understand that?
O: There is much that is over my head in refined Swahili.
O: But when (the person on the radio) sticks to the Swahili we speak, that I understand.
|8.||S: mm/ na mu kazi unaona namna
gani? mu kazi: ah: hata mwee: bantu wa kazi bote banasemaka Swahili/
O: bote banasemaka eeh/
S: mais sawa wee: classe quatre/ kama unasumbulia/
O: mm/ kama tunasumbulia hapa shee benyewe?
O: mu kaz: mu kazi zaidi: tunasemaka mu Français/ mu komponi njo mule tunasemaka Swahili/
S: mm/ mais kama munasumbulia na ...
O: mais minaisha kuona asema: kama tunasumbulia shee benyewe: kunaikalaka mamots ya mingi ya mu Français mule mu Swahili/ ni ya kuchangachanga/
S: mm/ oui/
O: sasa kama tunasumbulia sawa na muntu mwengine ule sawa ashiyue Français: njo ku: kwanza kuéviter ile mamots yetu ya Swahili: kwanza kusema juu ya kusikilizana/
S: oui: minaona/ na: ku eh: wee unaona namna gani? una: unawaza kama: tuseme: Swahili: mara ingine hii namna ya kusumbulia na ba: bantu wa kazi: inaleta problèmes?
O: hapana/ kwa namna bo: tuko na ...
S: sawa bazungu bengine habaseme: habasemake Swahili vizuri/ kiisha bana ...
O: oui oui/
S: ...banapashwa kucommander/ mm?
O: kile inakalaka: inakalaka sawa ile problème eh/ sawa vile tunaikalaka na Kalinski/ yee: anakalaka na Swahili moya yake: ya nguvu sana/ ha/ [chuckle]
S: Kiswahili yake?
S: ya nguvu gani?
O: iko tu nguvu pa kumusikia ile: nani: anasemaka ile/
S: kumbe eh: ni kusema yee hasemake ...
O: yee anasema mubaya/
O: mm/ sasa: kama sawa anaonyesha muntu inafai ya: eh: aseme mara mingi juu ya yee kusikia kile yee anatafuta kusema/ ao souvent: kama shee tukoako: kama nikoako: nasikiaka bien anasema: minasikia kile anatafuta kusema: njo minamuexpliquer mule mwenyewe/
O: bana ...?... kusema muzuri/
|8.||S: Mm. And how do you see the
situation at work. In the work place you, all the workers, speak Swahili.
O: They all speak it, yes.
S: But you, the classe quatre,12 (what do you speak) when you talk to each other?
O: Mm. When we talk among ourselves?
O: At work itself we speak French. In the settlement we speak Swahili.
S: Mm. But when you talk with...
O: But I have made the observation when we talk to each other, there occur a lot of French words in Swahili, there is a lot of mixing.
S: Mm. Yes.
O: Now, when we talk with another person who does not know French than we avoid those (French) words we use in our Swahili and talk such that we understand each other.
S: Yes, I see. And in your opinion, in talking with the workers, does speaking Swahili sometimes create problems?
O: No. Because of the way we...
S: For instance, some European don't speak Swahili well. Then they...
O: Yes, yes.
S: ... have to give orders, right?
O: That is always a problem, yes. For example, we have the case of Kalinski. His Swahili is a really difficult one. [chuckle]
S: His Swahili?
S: Difficult in what way?
O: It's just hard to understand him, what he says.
S: So then, in other words, he does not speak...
O: He speaks badly.
O: Mm. For instance, when he shows a person what needs to be done than it often happens that he understands what (Kalinski) tries to say. Or often, when we are there, when I am there, I understand quite well what he tries to say. Then I explain this to the person concerned.
O: They ...?.... to speak well.13
|9.||S: kwa: enfin: wee unaona namna
gani: hii namna ya: ya kusema ya bazungu/ ao: bengine banasemaka: bengine
habasemake/ mais bote banawaza kama banasema/ mm?
O: kwa namna bo: asema mbele ton inaachana na yetu/
O: ton yabo: inatokea sawa mu Français/
O: ya mu Swahili/
S: kwa bote?
O: kidogo lakini njo banasemaka tu sa shi/
S: sa shi?
S: sa shi ni nini?
O: sa shi: shiye benyewe ba ...
S: ah sawa: sawa sawa she: sa shi/ [laughs]
S: sawa shiye/ oui: ah: nani? kwa mufano/
O: sawa mu kazi sawa ile?
O: Hajinicolaou/ Foucart ya kufwata/
S: mm/ banasema Cahier: Cahier: Cahie? kule ku four/
O: Cahier/ eeh: Cahier/
S: anasemaka muzuri?
O: Cahier nayee anasemaka muzuri/ mm/
S: hata na ton: na yote?
O: na ton: na byote/
S: na ingine?
O: Dassas nayee anayua mu Kiswahili/ anasema na ton ya bien: mais mi bado kusikia maphrases mulefu mulefu/
O: minaisha kusikia paka:
S: oui oui/
O: mambo kifupi/
|9.||S: How do you see the way Europeans
speak (Swahili)? Some speak it, others don't. But they all think that they
speak it, right?
O: Oh, about the way they speak it - it's above all their intonation that is different from ours.
O: Their intonation comes out like in French.
O: In Swahili.
S: (Is that the case) with all of them?
O: A little, though there are those speak just sa shi.
S: Sa shi?
S: What is this sa shi?
O: Sa shi, we ourselves....
S: Ah, sawa, like, like we. Sa shi. [laughs]14
S: Like we. Yes. Who, for example?
O: (You mean) someone at work?
O: Hajinicolau, followed by Foucart.
S: Mm. They also say (this about) Cahier, or is it Cahie? (The one who works) there at the furnace.
O: Cahier. Yes, Cahier.
S: Does he speak (Swahili) well?
O: Cahier also speaks it well. Mm.
S: Even with the (right) intonation and everything?
O: With the intonation and everything.
S: And others?
O: Dassas also know (is way) in Swahili. When he speaks his intonation is good but I haven't heard him speak really long sentences.
O: Just (talking about) things briefly.
|10.||S: oui oui/ eh: mara ingine banasema:
ah: wakati itakuya: Français ata: Français itaremplacer Swahili/ wee una:
unawaza kama ...
O: ao Français remplacer Swahili?
O: itakuwa nguvu sana lakini/ sawa bababa wetu habayue Français: bata: batairemplacer na Swahili je? bo habakufunde: ce n'est pas: nani: ku miaka makumi tano kule ataanza sawa kufunda Français/
S: mm/ mais hata hata hii ...
O: ... ao mwenyewe biyana/
O: kuko biyana mingi: bingine habiwa bikufunda/ habayue Français muzuri/ ao bengine tu haba: habayue Français sasa/ mi siwezi kusema itaremplacer Swahili huku/
|10.||S: Yes, yes. Sometimes it is said
that in the future French will replace Swahili. Do you think that...
O: French replace Swahili?
O: But that will be very difficult.
S: For instance, people of our fathers' generation don't know French, how could they replace Swahili? They are not educated. Someone who is fifty years old is not going to learn French.
S: Mm. But even this...
O: Not even the youngsters (are going to do this).
S: What do you mean?
O: The are many young people who don't have (much of) an education. They don't know French well. And some don't know any French. I can't say that (French) will replace Swahili here.
|11.||S: non/ unaona kama bataanza kusema
O: Lingala sawa mi mwenyewe sijue/
S: wee haujui?
O: sijue Lingala/
S: hata kusikia kiloko?
O: sikia kidogo zaidi/
S: juu ya madisques/
O: ...?... ya madisques: bya mingi inanipitaka: mais kuko tu ingine tule tu minasikiaka: mais: ts: ni juu ya mi sijidonner juu ya kuijua/ kama ...?... asema nijue Lingala: na bitabu na byote: bitu hivi/ mais mi sifanye peu effort asema nijue Lingala/
S: mm/ banaonaka Lingala namna gani? ni lugha bien ao?
O: Lingala: namna? oui: sawa lugha moya ye fiele humu/
S: ah oui/ ya fiele? juu ya: juu ya: maneno ina: ilitoka Kinshasa...
O: minawazia/ bamilitaires banasemaka paka hiyo/ sasa kama muntu anasema Lingala: anakuwa tu sawa: sawa nduku yake ya militaires: ao muntu wa mu kisasa: maneno yee anatoka mu capitale/
O: njo: iko tu na influencé par: pa Swahili/
|11.||S: No. Do you think people will
start speaking Lingala?
O: About Lingala - I myself don't know it.
S: You don't know it.
O: I don't know Lingala.
S: Not even (enough) to understand a little?
O: Understand very little.
S: Because of the records.
O: ...?... (much of what is said) on the records is above my head but there are some where I understand small parts. But, well, I just don't make an effort to know (Lingala). If I did...?... it would mean that would have to know written Lingala and everything that goes together with that. But I make little effort to get to know Lingala.
S: Mm. How do people see Lingala? Is it a good language? Or?
O: I think, because it is what the military speaks, a person who speaks Lingala is (seen) like a buddy of soldiers, or someone who is modern because (it is assumed that) he comes from the capital.
O: That is just (a view) influenced by living in a place where Swahili is spoken.
|12.||S: mara ingine mu radio/ una:
unaweza kamata sawa Tanzanie ao: ao Nairobi?
O: hii Swahili?
O: mule si inakalaka bora? bora: mi si: inakalaka ingine binanipitaka: bingine minasikia/
O: ni tu: sawa vile minasikiaka bile sawa matarehe: date/
O: oui/ kama ina banaisema tarehe: mitayua asema date/ kama: mais kuko: paka bengine bile banasemaka: ile inye bora zaidi zaidi: bile binanipitaka/
|12.||S: On the radio, can you sometimes
get Tanzania, for instance, or Nairobi?
O: That kind of Swahili?
O: Over there it is refined, isn't it? With refined (Swahili) some is over my head, some I understand.
O: It's just - for instance I have heard expressions like tarehe, date.
O: Yes. When they say tarehe I'll know it means date. However some of the very refined expressions are above my head.
|13.||S: mm/ kwa namna unaona: unakutana
na muntu/ sasa unasikia namna yake ya kusema/ utaweza kusema ni muntu fulani
muntu fulani? sawa: ni muntu wa kazi: ao karani: ao anatoka wapi? twanze
kwa namna yangu ya: ya kusema Swahili/
S: mm? tuseme: tuweke mufano ah?
S: wee unanikutana mara ya kwanza/ unasikia Swahili yangu/ utasema: ah: hii: utasema nini? eh: uta: utawaza nini?
O: kwa kusema par example sawa uko Allemand bintu ya sawa?
O: aah: ile inakalaka nguvu/
S: mais ...
O: kwa ku namna tu ya kusema ...
O: ...kusema asema ule ...
S: na uta: uta: ulisema nini?
O: tuseme bazungu bote banasemaka presque pamoya/
O: presque bote tu/
S: na ton yabo?
O: eh: ton yabo moya/ hakuna namna ya kusema asema: Flamand anasemaka sawa: Français nayee anasemaka Swahili sawa/ bote tu mu kufunda banasemaka paka pamoya/
S: oui mais: sawa ulisema bengine banasemaka paka mu: kifupi: eh: pasipo heshima/
O: hapana ile si pasipo heshima/
S: oui ni pasipo heshima: kama: bale bazungu bengine: hata majorité: banasema nini? asema kuya: fanya: toka: mi kuyua hapana: [claps] hapana be...
O: minaonaka nabakuya nguvu pa kwanza ku: kusema mambo mulefu mulefu/ mbele anasema paka ile anapashwa ile anapenda asema mi sikie nje/
|13.||S: Mm. When you see or meet a
person and hear the way he speaks, will you be able to say what kind of
person he is? A worker, for instance, or a clerk, or (the place) he comes
from? Let's start with the way I speak Swahili.
S: Mm? Let's say we take that as an example, right?
S: (Let's assume) you meet me for the first time and hear my Swahili, what would you say, what would you think?
O: That you are German, for instance, or things like that?
S: Would you say that?
O: Ah, that is difficult...
O: (To tell) only from the way of speaking...
O: ... and say this person...
S: So what would you say?
O: Let's just say, all the Europeans have almost the same way of speaking.
S: All of them?
O: Almost all of them.
S: And (what about) their intonation?
O: Well, their intonation is one and the same. There is not way to tell that is how a Flemish (speaker) talks and how a French (speaker) speaks Swahili. While they are learning they all talk the same.
S: Yes but you said yourself that some only speak short sentences, without (showing) respect.
O: No, that is not is not speaking without respect.
S: Yes it is, when some Europeans, maybe the majority say what? [imitating pidgin talk] Come! Do! Me not know. [claps] Is that not....
O: What I see is that in the beginning they have difficulties expressing themselves at length. So, above all, he just says what he needs or wants (to get across) so that I understand it.
|14.||S: mm/ oui/ kumbe kwa bantu/ kama
unasikia Swahili yake ya: ya muntu/ utasema: utaweza kusema: yee iko na
kazi fulani: ao anatoka wapi?
O: kiloko: ku bengine unaweza kusikia alafu [long pause] ile: eh: sawa ku shee benyewe minaweza kusema huyu: huyu ni wa: sawa ni kabila fulani: namna yake ya kusema Swahili/
S: utaweza kusema?
O: sawa: ts: mufano njo inanikosa/
S: hautaweza kusema ni muntu ya Gécamines ao?
O: aah ile ...
S: muko na Swahili special mu Gécamines?
O: paka Swahili moya/ pengine kuko ma: mamots ingine eh/
O: ile banaweza sawa: sawa mu Luilu: beko banabisema: njo Kiswahili ya mule mwenyewe mu Luilu/ alafu humu habaisema: hatuna nayo/
O: ao ingine Kiswahili ile shee tuko tunasema humu: alafu mu Luilu habaisema/ mais ile inakuwa: ile ni bintu: bintu sawa macommentaires: bintu ya sawa/
S: oui oui/
O: mais ku inye kwa kusema ni paka namna moya/
O: et puis maSwahili sawa ya mu bars eh?
O: ya: kuko matermes ingine anayua paka ya mule mwenyewe mu bar/ kama muntu anaisema: asema huyu muntu anapendaka na mu bar anaweza kusema hivi/
|14.||S: Mm. Now about (African) people.
When you hear the Swahili spoken by a person could you tell what kind of
work he does or where he comes from?
O: A little bit. There are some where you can hear it but... [takes time to reflect] For ourselves I could tell this one is from such and such ethnic group, going on the way he speaks Swahili.
S: Could you?
O: For instance, well - I don't have an example.
S: You can tell whether a person works for the Gécamines, or?
O: Oh, that....
S: Do you have a special Swahili in the Gécamines?
O: It's one and the same Swahili. Perhaps there are some word that are different, yes.
O: It is possible that in Luilu they use words that are typical of the Swahili in that place, in Luilu, and that here we don't use them, we don't have them.
O: Or there may be a different Swahili that we speak here and that they don't speak in Luilu. But those things come up in commentaries,15 things like that.
S: Yes. Yes.
O: But as to speaking as such, it's the same.
O: And then you have the kind of Swahili spoken in the bars, right?
O: There are some terms known only to someone who hangs out in a bar. When I person uses them you can tell this guy like to be in bars, that's why he can talk like than.
|15.||S: ah oui/ mm/ kwa: kwa mawazo
yako: eh: tunaona kama kila muntu: ana:
O: fanya kazi/
S: anatumika kazi/ mais: [claps] maana yake zaidi zaidi tunatumika juu ya nini?
O: ts/ [takes time to think] juu ya kupata namna ya kuikala/
O: sawa sawa mi niliisha kukomea: mi sina kwanza kuikalia: kalia baba: asema anza kunilisha/
O: kama baba sawa iko na mali: minaweza kuikala minaweza kuya mambo ingine/ minaweza kwanza kutumika na ile mali yake/ sasa kama minakuwa kutumika bina: leta tu na mi: nipate namna ya kuikala/
S: mm/ mm/ oui mais: tuweke mufano eh? wee: kama wee uli: sijui namna gani mais: wee ulipata Zaire million moya/
S: kumbe kila siku: ya maisha yako: utakuwa na Zaire kupita eh? ni kusema: utatumika tena kazi? kama ulikuwa na utajiri yote? tulipashwa tena kutumika?
O: [hesitates] njo ... [laughs]
O: ah mi niko: mm: mi siwazie/ kama minawina: tusema minawina:
O: mi toka na bantu: ?wengine tumikia: mi minaikala/
S: kuikala paka kulya: kunywa: kutembea tu?
O: si ...?... minaweza sawa fanya tu makazi yangu kiloko tu ya manyumba: minatengeneza sawa nyumba yangu/ kiisha mitakuya kuangaria ile kazi vile beko nafanya/
S: mm/ kumbe wee unawaza kama muntu ataweza kubakia pasipo kazi?
O: mi siseme sawa/ maneno asema kama minawina: minaweza kwanza: minafansia kwanza maboîtes de nuit/
O: kiisha mina: minaangaria namna ile iko natembea: binaniingisha Makuta: kiisha ...
S: oui mais: hii kazi: hauna: hauna: maneno wee ulipata ma: butajiri yote eh?
S: maboites de nuit: ah: pa kufanya commerce: non/ maneno wee uko na Makuta yote/ paka mu banque: unaweka mu banque: kila siku uko na besoin: unaenda uta: utakamata Zaire cinq cent ...
O: aaah/ ile lakini: minakuwa muvivu/ hivi mi minaona lakini/
O: hivi mi minaona/ mi sina: ao kama mina mali mingi eh? kama minapata mali mingi zaidi: kwa kuikala tu hivi kuweka paka mu banque: asema ile saa inaifaa minaenda kutosha: kuya: habinifurahishe tu zaidi vile/ maneno ao kama mi Makuta mingi: minaitumikishe/
S: mm/ mm/ inafaa: kutumikisha Makuta?
O: mm/ ao kama iko mingi: njo ile niko na: niko paka na ile makazi inye minafansisha/ njo inaingisha paka ingine Makuta/
O: mais kwa kuikala bule: tu sawa: ao kama Makuta iko mingi je ...
O: minaona bitaanza bitaleta buvivu sana/
|15.||S: Ah, yes. About your thoughts
- well, we see that every one ...
S: He does his work. But [claps] what is this really about, why are we working?
O: Oh that... [takes time to think] To make a living (lit. to find a way to exist).
O: Take me, for instance. I am grown up, I am not going to live with my father expecting him to feed me.
O: I my father were rich I could stay and I could come up with something else. I could work with his fortune and when I do this well I will get my share and have and existence.
S: Mm. Mm. Yes but - let's take an example, right? I don't know how but lets assume you made a million Zaire.
S: So then, every day of your life, you would have more Zaire than you need. Right? What I mean is would still work? If you had all this wealth. Would we still be obliged to work (in such a case)?
O: [hesitates] That... [laughs]
O: Ah, mm, I should not think so. If I make it big, let's say I make it big...
O: Other people would go to work, I stay (at home).16
S: You stay (at home)?
S: Stay and just eat, drink, and take a walk?
O: ...?... I could do a little house work, fix up my house, for instance. For that I would observe those who do that kind of work.
S: Mm. So you think that a person can hang about without working?
O: That's not what I am saying. Because if I made it big I could set up some night clubs, to begin with.
O: Then I would see how they do, whether they make money for me, then...
S: Yes but even that sort of work you would not need to do because you would have all that wealth (to begin with), right?
S: Running night clubs to do business, no. Because (we assume) you all that money. You just put in the bank and every day, if you need some, you just go and take out five hundred Zaire....
O: Aaah. But would make me lazy person. That's how I see it.
O: That's how I see it. I'm not - even if had a lot of wealth, right? It I were to become really rich, I would not enjoy just hanging about, putting it in a bank and taking it when I need it.
S: Mm. Mm. Money must be made to work?
O: Mm. Or if there is a lot of it, then I would come up with all sort of work to get done. And that would make more money.
S: I see.
O: But just hang about doing nothing if there is a lot of money...
S: I see.
O: In my view, this would lead to real laziness.
|16.||S: mm/ na: kumbe: mu mawazo yako:
kila muntu inapash: kila muntu anapashwa kutumika/ mais sasa tuko na namna
ya kazi ya: eh: mwenye kuachana/
S: sawa kazi ya mikono: kazi ya karani: kazi ya ingenieur: kazi ya mwalimu/ unaona kazi ya mikono: unaona sawa: wee unaona namna gani? iko bule tu ao?
O: njo: njo minaonaka sawa ile ni kutumi: kutumika: juu ya kupata Makuta/
O: juu ya: kupata namna ya kuikala: nilikuonyesha/
O: sasa hakuna tu muntu lakini anapenda kufanya: nguvu yake na mikono mikono/
|16.||S: Mm. So then, you think that
everyone must work. But then we have different kinds of work.
O: Manual labor, for instance, clerical work, the work of an engineer or teacher. How do you see manual work? Is it just worthless, or?
O: It is something I look at as one way of working to earn money.
O: To make a living, as I pointed out to you.
O: Of course, there is no one who likes to put his strength (only) into manual labor.
|17.||S: mm/ minaona/ mu: sasa mu avenir:
wakati itakoyokuja/ ah: uko na plan gani? mawazo gani ya kuendelea...
S: mu kazi/ unaona hii namna ya kuendelea: kwako: unaona namna gani?
O: tuna sawa: alafu sasa mi karibu na kuoa/ ile saa nitakuwa na bibi yangu: si nitakuwa...
S: uko karibu na?
S: ulichagula bibi?
S: mulisikilizana na ba: na bazazi?
O: tuko tunasikilizana na bote: na bazazi yake na bazazi wangu/
S: mm/ ni ndoa ...
O: siyue: kama minaendelea na kutumika: kama minaenda: njo sawa vile minaendelea kutumika minauza bintu bingine mu nyumba bina: binanikosa: kiisha: minaanza kufanya maéconomies yangu: kwa namna ya kupata: kupata namna ya kuingisha Makuta ingine ku mpembeni: ku tu: pasipo kuangaria ile: ile minapokeaka/
O: shee kuchu: kuchunga tu Makuta puisque: célibataire na mi minakalaka na nguvu sana kwa kuchunga tu Makuta sawa/ njo pale minawaza bibi ataniaider/
O: kama: kuchunga Makuta: unaweza kufanya sawa activité ingine ku: mpembeni/
O: na minaendeleaka paka natumika/
|17.||Mm. I see. Now, what is you plan
for the future, your ideas about making progress?
O: My ideas?
S: (I mean) at work. How do you see this, getting ahead?
O: Right now I am about to get married. Once I'll be with my wife, I'm going to/...
S: You are bout to do what?
O: Get married.
S: Get married.
S: Have you chosen a wife?
S: Did you come to an understanding with her parent?
O: We came to an agreement about everything, her parents and mine.
S: Mm. So it's marriage...
O: I don't know, if I go on working and if I get somewhere, make progress at work, I am going to buy some things for the house, thing's I don't have. Then I will make my savings and somehow make money on the side, no matter what I earn (at work).
O: If, to save money, you can do something else on the side.
O: I'll get ahead only by working.
|18.||S: mm/ tena na wato: batoto/ mais
S: mu kazi inyewe: utaendelea namna gani?
O: hivi minaona ... [interruption, moving the recorder]
S: mu kazi: oui: pa kuendelea mu kazi/ unaona namna gani?
O: kuendelea ya kupanda?
S: ao kupanda: unipe mawazo yako/
O: lakini kama sipande minatoka/
O: oui/ tena minaongo: minaongojea tu kupanda/
S: utatotoka wapi: kufanya nini?
O: kwenda: kwenda kutumika fasi ingine: ile: ile batanipandisha/
S: mu hydro-métallurgie?
O: mm/ mais ile fasi niko na espoir ya kupanda: minapata ...
S: mais utapanda wapi? utapanda namna gani? kupanda wapi?
O: kwenda ku: tuseme kuwa cadre/
S: kuwa cadre/
S: pa kuwa cadre: utatumika kazi gani?
O: pa kuwa cadre? si paka sawa hii kazi niko nafanya?
O: kuko namna ya kuwa cadre kiisha kwanza kupanda na magrades/
S: paka ya chef d'équipe adjoint ao: ao ...
O: hapana chef d'équipe adjoint: kuwa chef d'équipe: chef d'équipe kuwa brigadier: brigadier ao contremaître/
S: mm/ mu équipe wetu: wenu: ni chef d'équipe: njo Kalinski?
O: chef d'équipe Kalinski/
S: ao brigadier?
O: non non: brigadier ni Santos/
O: njo Santos/
O: na nani: na Skelteur/
S: Skelteur iko brigadier?
S: ni kusema yee ana: napita: anapita Kalinski?
O: anapita Kalinski eeh/ mais yee iko anaangaria ku purification: Santos: njo anaangaria ku lixiviation/ Monsieur Chapelle njo contremaître ...?...
S: mais Santos anatumikaka paka: paka mu siku: mu ...
O: busubui eeh/
S: busubui tu: mm/
O: maéquipes: inaisha kuwa paka bachefs d'équipe/
S: mm/ brigadier: babrigadiers banatumikaka paka mu: mu: mu usiku?
O: non non: babrigadiers ni paka mu jua/
S: mu jua?
O: mm/ sawa chefs d'équipe njo wa busiku/
|18.||S: Mm. And then (there will be)
children. But at work?
S: At the work place, how will you get ahead (there)?
O: This is how I see it...[interruption, moving the recorder]
S: So, to get ahead at work, how do you see this?
O: By getting ahead (you mean) being promoted (lit. rising)?
S: Being promoted, or what ever. Give me your thoughts (about this).
O: If I am not promoted I leave.
S: You would leave?
O: Yes. At any rate, I am waiting for a promotion.
S: If you were to leave where (would you go)? Do what?
O: Just go and work somewhere else, where they are going to promote me.
S: In hydro-metallurgy?17
O: Mm. But it would have to me a place were could hope to get ahead. I get...
S: But were would you get ahead, and how?
O: Let's say move on to become cadre.18
S: Become cadre.
S: If you became cadre, what kind of work would you do?
O: As cadre? It would be the work I am doing now, no?
O: The way it is, one becomes cadre and then rises in the ranks.
S: Just chef d'équipe adjoint, or...
O: Not just chef d'équipe adjoint but chef d'équipe. Chef d'équipe and then brigadier. Brigadier or foreman.
S: Mm. In our, or rather, in your shift, who is chef d'équipe, Kalinski?
O: Chef d'équipe is Kalinski.
S: Or (is he) brigadier?
O: No, no, brigadier is Santos.
O: That is Santos.
S: I see.
O: And, what's his name, Skelteur.
S: Skelteur is brigadier?
S: That means he is higher than Kalinski?
O: He is higher than Kalinski, yes. But he supervises the purification section, Santos looks after the leaching. Monsieur Chapelle is the foreman...?...
S: But Santos only works during the day...
O: The morning (shift), yes.
S: The morning shift only. Mm.
O: Only chefs d'équipe work shifts.
S: Mm. The brigadiers only work in the evening?
O: No, no, brigadiers only work during the day (lit. when it is light).
S: During the day?
O: Mm. It's the chefs d'équipe who work at night.
|19.||S: mm/ na unaona hii kazi ni:
eh: mu Français tunasema intéressant?
S: tutasema namna gani mu Swahili?
O: kama mina....
S: eh: ya pa kusema interéssant/
S: kufura: furahisha?
S: unaona hii kazi unafanya kule: iko kazi ya kufurahisha?
O: eeh/ tena kwa namna unakuwa kuona eh? namna: esprit ya kazi ya humu mu nani: humu Métalkat eh?
O: haina pamoya na mu Gécamines/
S: inaachana namna gani?
O: tena mu Géca: mu Gécamines muko: mm: ts: il y a une: nani: ts: distance mukubwa sana entre bantu beusi na bazungu/ kiisha: bazungu kidogo: kidogo mu Gécamines: njo: njo beko tu bien/ aba bengine aba: ts: tena beko benye un peu ya esprit ya colonialiste/ bintu ya sawa/ namna yabo ya donner ma ...
S: esprit colonialiste ina: inaonekana namna gani?
O: eko: eko nafoka saa yote: eko na: eko tu na kibengo/
O: ... na bantu beusi/ mais kama minasumbulia na bengine bazungu iko bien/ ile tunaona tu kwa namna kutumika na muntu sawa/
S: mm/ unaona: na inaachana mu Métalkat?
O: minaona inaachana mu Métalkat eh/
S: sababu gani?
O: sawa humu mu Métalkat: esprit ya: ya bantu beusi na bazungu eh? iko: disons mu kazi tuko nasikilizana bien/
|19.||S: Mm. And do you find you work,
as we say in French, interesting?
S: How would we say this in Swahili?
O: If I...
S: (What would we say) instead of interesting?
O: It gives me joy.
S: (Something that) gives joy?
S: Do you consider the work you do there enjoyable?
O: Yes. Also, the way to look at it, right? The spirit of work here at Métalkat?
O: It is not like at Gécamines.
S: How does it differ?
O: At Gécamines, well, there is a great distance between black people and Europeans. In the end only very few Europeans at Gécamines are alright. The others, they have a bit of a colonialist spirit, things like that. The way they give (orders)...
S: How does the colonialist spirit come out?
O: In constant telling of, in not showing respect.19
O: For black people. But when I talk with certain European it is fine. As we see it, this is the way to work with a person.
S: Mm. An you think this is different at Métalkat?
O: Yes, I think it is different at Métalkat.
O: Here at Métalkat, the spirit of black people and Europeans - let's just say, at work we get along quite well.
|20.||S: mm/ unaona siku moya: kama
bazungu bote batatoka? bata: bataenda...
S: na mwee mutafanya kazi yote?
O: sijue: banasemaka/
S: [laughs] eh: banasemaka: na wee: ku mawazo yako?
O: tu minawaza tutafanya/ kwa kuona hivi: pale tunafikiaka hapa par example service électrique/
O: mbele baliisha kuwa bachefs d'équipe bazungu eh? ku mapostes/ maéquipes/ sasa bale banatoka: banarudia ba: bantu beusi pale pale/
S: bachefs d'équipe?
O: bachefs d'équipe: bantu beusi oui/ mais beko natumika tu bien/
S: hata ingenieurs/
S: hata ingenieurs/ Kibikiabo: si njo chef de ...
O: mu: wa nani: service electrique?
O: mais: sawa yee mi si: mi siwezi kuyua: namna ya baingenieurs lakini/ ile inaangaria paka hii: iko minaonaka karibu/ par example tuko na Yumba/
S: mm/ na hau: wee hauna na mawazo ya kuendelea mu université: kupata diplôme ya ingenieur?
O: disons: mi: minatafuta kuendelea mais: ts: minaona situation ya famille yangu njo hainipermettre ya ku: ya kuendelea sawa/
O: kama mina: minkutia par example kuendelea: inafaa nikuwe na muntu: muntu ule ananisupporter/
O: bon sawa: baba yangu mi atapata pension minawaza dans deux ans/ dans deux ans atakuwa pensionné/
S: atarudia: atarudia kwake? atarudia Mbuji Mayi?
O: ile mi sijue eh/ anaisha kuuza nyumba mu cité ya humu/
S: ah oui?
O: mm/ iko na nyumba ingine ku nani ...
S: sasa anaikala mu: mu kompund ya Kolwezi?
O: eko anaikala mule nyumba iko na: na ...?... ya équipe yangu/
O: mu cité/ kiisha iko na nyumba ingine kule ku: ku Mbuji Mayi: na ku inyewe mu mugini tena/
O: sasa mi bado kumuulizaka kule: ile fasi anapenda kubakia/
|20.||S: Mm. Do you think that one day
all the Europeans will leave? They will go...
S: ... and you will do all the work?
O: I don't know; (it's what) they say.
S: [laughs] Sure, they say that but what about you, in your thoughts?
O: I think we'll do it. If you want to see an example look at the electricity section.20
O: First Europeans used to be chefs d'équipe, right? (Leading the shift and teams). Now they have left and black people took back their places.
S: As chefs d'équipe?
O: Yes, black people as chefs d'équipe. But they work quite well.
S: Even engineers.
S: Even engineers.. Kibikiabo, is he not the head of...
O: In the - what is it again? - the electricity section.
O: But I, for instance, I would not have the knowledge the engineers have. I see all the time from close by what this involves. For example, we have (engineer) Yumba.
S: Mm. An you don't think about going on to university and an engineer's diploma?
O: Let's say I seek to get ahead but, well, the situation of my family does not permit me to go on (to university).
O: Should I come upon a chance to go on I would need a person who supports me.
O: Alright. I think my father well get his pension in two years. In two years he will be retired.
S: I he going back home, to Mbuji Mayi?
O: That I don't know. He bought a house here in the township.
S: Oh yes?
O: Mm. He has another house in - what is it again...
S: Right now he live in the workers' settlement in Kolwezi?
O: He lives there in a house. He has ...?... of my team.21
O: In the township. Then he has another house in Mbuji Mayi, right in the village.
O: I haven't asked him yet where he would like to live.
|21.||S: mm/ kumbe utakuwa na watoto:
watoto yako/ batakomelea batafwata masomo: pengine université/
O: batoto wangu eh?
O: batoto yangu hivi minaonaka bataendeleaka jusque: pale akili yabo itaishia/
|21.||S: Mm. So you will have children,
your children. They'll grow up and go to school, perhaps to university.
O: My children?
O: The way I see it, my children will get as far as their intelligence reaches (lit. until their intelligence is finished).
|22.||S: sasa hii: unaona kama: sawa
ulisema mu Gécamines bazungu bengine beko: bali: balibakia paka na mawazo
yabo colonialiste: bengine bana ...
O: tena tu : haina ...
S: bengine bana ...
O: haina tena ...?... mawazo colonialiste mais: ts: racisme/
O: c'est que: pour eux: hakuna tu namna ya kusikilizana na bantu beusi/ banakuwa ku kazi juu ya kutumika: ts: kiisha: beko nagarder paka madistances yabo: et puis anarudia mule mwake yee: mule sawa anakuwa bien/ ou bien mu kazi iko bien ile sawa na: bazungu bengine iko: sawa iko bien/
|22.||S: Now, as you said, some Europeans
at Gécamines still have this colonialist attitude. Some are...
O: And then, there is no...
S: Some are...
O: It is not that they still have colonialist attitudes, rather it's racism.
O: It's just that for them (Europeans) and black people don't understand each other. They come to the work place to work, keep their distance, an then they go back home, the place where they feel good. (But) there are some Europeans who feel god at the work place.
|23.||S: na: ah ...?... ah oui: kila
kazi iko na: na problème yake: ya nguvu yake: ya critiquer eh? O: eh/
S: hata mu kazi yangu ...?... sawa kule mu kazi wenu/
S: unaona hii problème ina: inaonekana namna gani? zaidi zaidi kazi yako ya: unafanya ...?...
O: ya kucritiquer: tunaanza critiquer pale sawa shiye eh?
O: mbele si: kulikuwaka baadjoints bazungu: na bachefs d'équipe haba bazungu/ bon kiisha bale ba: baadjoints bazungu balikuwa bacadres/
O: sasa shiye: kiisha tunafanya paka mbele: tunafanya baaspirants cadre mais tunafanya paka ile kazi inyewe ya adjoint/
O: sijue: tunaona c'est ...
S: baadjoints balikuwa bantu: eh?
O: eeh mu équipe mulikuwa bantu ba: chef d'équipe na adjoint: bote bazungu: tous les deux ...?... autorisé maéquipes/
S: oui mais: bon: sasa ...?... unasikia: kazi yako ina: inakuletea nguvu: namna gani? ina: ina: paka kwa mufano: kwa kusikilizana na bantu wa kazi?
O: kwa kusikilizana?
O: tunasikilizanaka/ muzuri/ mais kuko saa ingine tu ...
S: hata mu usine muzima sawa: kila problème unaona/ sawa...
O: kwa kusikilizana tunasikilizanaka: mais inaweza kufika saa ingine tunakosana: kama: pa kazi tu/ mais itapita: kiisha tunaendelea sawa mbele/
O: ndjo/ hata shee benyewe na bachefs d'équipe: ...?... saa ingine tunakosana: saa ingine tu: kiisha tu tuko tunaendelea sawa mbele/ ya mi si: hapa sawa mi sione tu: problème ya namna ya kuikala: ya kuikala sawa mu équipe/
O: minaona tunatumika muzuri/
|23.||S: And, ah...?... ah yes, every
kind of work has its problems, its difficulties, something to be critical
S: Where do you see problems arise, especially in the work that you do...?...?
O: (Something) to be critical about, so this is where we begin criticize, right?
O: It used to be that both, chefs d'équipe and their assistants were Europeans. Alright, those European assistants used to be (classified as) cadres.
O: No we who are doing exactly the work assistants used to do but (we are classified only) candidates for (the rank of) cadres.
O: I don't know, we think this is...
S: The assistants used to be Africans?
O: (They were) Europeans.
O: Yes, in a team you would have African, both the chef d'équipe and his assistant were Europeans...?... authorized (to lead) teams.
S: Yes, fine. But (back to my question): What make your difficult for you. For instance, is it just how to get along with the workers?
O: Getting along?
O: We usually get along alright, but sometimes there...
S: And in the plant as a whole - take any problem you can think of. Like...
O: We really get along well but it can happen that we disagree with each other at work. But that will pass and then we go on as before.
O: That's how it is. Even we sometimes have disagreements with the chefs d'équipe but when it is over we go on as before. As far as I am concerned, I don't see a problem with being in a team.
O: I think we work well (together).
|24.||S: kumbe kazi: sawa vile banasema
kazi ya mayi/
S: kazi ya mayi: nguvu yake ni nini? kila kazi iko na nguvu yake/ sawa/ na wee unaona hii ...
S: nguvu yake ya: kazi ya mayi?
O: ah hii fasi mi sikusikia muzuri lakini/
O: mi sikusikie wee muzuri:
O: ile unatafuta kusema/
S: tuseme kazi: kazi: kule: kazi ya malata ha?
S: nguvu yake ni kutumika tu: tshikongwan: kufanya mingi mingi mingi: ah: bon/
O: ile kazi ya malata iko: tuseme iko muchoko zaidi/
S: oui/ muchoko zaidi/ mais kazi: kazi wenu?
O: kazi yetu?
S: inaachana/ mais yee iko na nguvu yake/ non?
O: [hesitates] mi sione tu aseme iko nguvu / puisque surtout tunatumika kama: kintu kinaharibika eh?
O: bo banakuwa kunionyesha mi/
O: mi minabawekako mu mawazo yangu: kama minashindwa: mitaonyesha chef d'équipe/ chef d'équipe nayee anakuwa kunisema: mi sione tu kya nguvu pale/
O: ni kusema: niko natumika na mayele yangu pale inafikia/ mu kazi/ kama inaharibika: mina: minaangaria kile: tunaweza kufanya pale/ kama mi sipate kile tunaweza kufanya ile sawa binanipita: njo minaonyesha chef d'équipe/
O: sawa mi sione kintu ya nguvu/
O: kama: kama inanikuya nguvu: mi kyangu ni kuwaza/ kuwaza ile: ah: tuendeleshe paka na ku: kupitisha mayi: ou bien: ...?...gani/
O: sasa ile saa binanipita: minaonyesha chef d'équipe/ kama yee binamupita anaonyesha nayee bale bengine/
O: mi sione tu ya nguvu pale/
S: na kutumika poste ya: ya teni: si njo nguvu?
O: ah bon/ mais: ts: teni mi sionake nguvu zaidi/ puisque: kila mara kama minafanya teni minalala sawa siku muzima/ kiisha: busiku niko tu en forme/ hai: hainifanyake muchoko zaidi lakini/ kunaweza kuya: minute kiloko ile: minafanya sawa minakombana businginishi/
|24.||S: So (let's take) work like hydro-metallurgy.22
S: What is difficult about hydro-metallurgy? Each kind of work has its difficulty. How do you see this...
S: What is it that makes work with liquids difficult?
O: Ah, here I don't really understand.
S: You don't?
O: I don't really understand you.
S: Is that so?
O: What you are trying to say.
S: Let's say, work over there (on the other side), stripping cathodes, right?23
S: What makes this difficult that the work is done as tshikongwan24 , piece work, (you have to do) a lot of it.
O: Let's say (the problem with) piece work is that it is very tiring.
S: Yes, it is very tiring. But what about the work you people do?
O: Our work?
S: It is different, but it has its difficulty, no?
O: [hesitates] I really don't see that it is difficult. Mostly we have work when something breaks down, right?
O: (Then) they come and show me (what is to be done).
O: I count on them (lit. I always put them into my thoughts), when I am not up to the task I'll show it to the chef d'équipe. The chef d'équipe is there to tell me (what to do), I don't think of this as a difficulty.
O: What I am saying is that I work as far as my competence goes. When something goes wrong at work, I look at (at the problem and see what) we can do in that case. If a don't come up with a solution - if it is too much for me-I show it to the chef d'équipe.
O: That way I don't see anything that is difficult.
O: When a problem arises it is something for me to think about. Think, ah, let's get this going so to make the fluid run or ...?...whatever.
O: Now, when it gets too much for me I show it to the chef d'équipe. If it is too much for him he also shows it to others.
O: I don't see a problem there.
S: And work the night shift, isn't that hard?
O: Ah, alright. But for me the night shift is not so hard. Because every time I work the nightshift I sleep like the whole day. Then I am fit in the evening. It doesn't make me to tired. It can happen, just for a minute that I have to fight sleep.
|25.||25. S: oui/ paka kutimika kazi/
na: nazani njo yote nilikuwa na: kuuliza/ mara ingine wee uko na kintu ya
kuniuliza? sawa wee uliona: uliniona kutumika kazi yangu weee ...
O: sawa mbele: mbele ulinionyesha sawa unai: ni juu ya kufunda Swahili eh?
O: sasa: ku saa ...?... hivi unaniuliza eh: muko bingine sawa bya: asema namna ya kuwaza ya kazi: ya bya nguvu: ya: byote ni paka bya Swahili ao?
S: oui kufu: pa kufunda lugha: wee ulifunda Swahili/ ulifunda namna gani?
O: ah: mi nilikomelea/
S: ni kusema: ulifunda mu bitabu tu: ulifunda paka mu: mavocabulaires? non/
O: pa kufunda Swahili?
S: ulifunda namna gani? kwa voca: mu vocabulaire? kama ulikuwa mutoto?
O: shi ile sawa vile minasema: wee unanionyesha na mi: njo unayua na kukomea/
S: oui/ wee ulikuwa: hata kwa utoto: ulikuwa na mawazo: bintu ya kuuliza: ulikuwa: nani: eh: kuona sawa bazazi: eh?
S: bazazi bali: balikala: beko: mulikuwa na wa: na rafiki: mara ingine ulikuwa na bubishi:
S: paka vile: kila problème yake: njo yote: si njo yote: pa ku: pa kufunda lugha: ah: kufunda mu bitabu haitaenea/ itaenea ya namna gani? sababu wee unafunda najikala kufunda...?...
S: alafu inaku: inakawa kintu: pasipo: pasipo uzima/ ah? pasipo: eh: vie/ ha? inakawa sawa: sawa: langue: langue morte/ mm? maneno gani? maneno wee ulipashwa kukutana na bantu wenye kusema/
O: ah bien/
S: kumbe: mi: pa kufunda Swahili: inafaa kufunda namna gani? inafaa ku: kusikilizana na bantu: eh? ah: kukutana:
S: namna gani wee unaweza ku: kunielezea: wee unaweza: kuweka mawazo yako mu: mu lugha/
S: njo kufunda Swahili/
O: njo sawa/
|25.||25. S: Yes. Just do the work.
I think that is all I wanted to ask. Maybe you have something you want to
ask me about? As you observed me doing my work for some time...
O: At first you made it clear to me that it was about learning Swahili, right?
O: Now ...?... among the things you ask me there are some (questions) about the way I think about work and its problems - all this is just about Swahili, or?
S: Yes, learning a language. You learned Swahili. How did you learn it?
O: Ah, I grew up (with it).
S: What I am saying, did you learn it only from books, from vocabularies? No.
O: When I learned Swahili?
S: How did you learn it. From a vocabulary? When you were a child?
O: That's not what I am saying. You are showing it to me, you know what I mean by growing up.
S: Yes. In your childhood you had your thought, things to ask about, observing your parents, right?
S: There were your parents. You had friends, sometimes you had disagreements.
S: That's how it was, every (situation) has problems, that is what learning a language is all about, to learn it from books will not be enough. How could it be enough. Because learning (a language from books) means that you keep on learning...?...25
S: But it remains something without life. Right? Without, well, life.26 Right? It remains something like a dead language. Mm? Why? Because (if you really want to learn a language) you must meet with people who speak it.
O: Ah, alright.
S: You understand?
S: Therefore, when I (want to) learn Swahili, how must I learn it? I must come to a mutual understanding with people, right? (That is what I mean by) meeting them.
S: How else can you explain things to me? You can put your thoughts into language.
S: That's learning Swahili.
O: That is true.
|26.||26. S: mais wee unaona: sasa unaona
kama mi minaanza kazi ingine?
S: kazi ya: ya enquête/ wee unaona namna gani?
O: hii yako? non non mina: minauliza juu ya kujua/
S: mm/ mais wee uliwaza: uliwaza kama nili: niligeuka/
S: eh: minatafuta kintu kingine sasa?
O: kintu ingine sawa nini? mi: mi si: mi si ...
S: si juu: hapa mu Swahili ya hapa: mara ingine bantu batasema: kwa mufano wee una: eh: wee unasikia muntu: ah: anasema kintu fulani fulani/ mm?
S: mara ingine bantu banasema: eh: hii muntu iko na Kiswahili: mubaya/
S: mais: ni kusema nini? anasemaka mubaya: ao: iko na mawazo mubaya?
O: ni kusema byote mbili mara moya/
S: ahah/ bon/ unaona? pa kufunda Swahili: inafaa kufunda mawazo/ kujua mawazo/ si vile?
S: si vile? shee: saa yote: hata shee mu université: mu masomo: tunasema pa kufunda s: lugha: kinywa fulani: zaidi: inafaa ...
O: kufunda na mifano ya bale banabisema/
S: c'est ca/
S: inafaa kusoma bitabu yabo: ao: ao ... tena inafaa: inafaa kwenda kule: ku inchi yabo/ mm? kuikala ku inchi yabo: kuona sawa bantu bana: banatumikaka: banawaza: banasemaka: banafuraha: beko na mateso/ ha?
O: sasa kwa namna yako ya kuona/
O: unaona sawa ka...
S: kumbe... [short interruption, door is closed]
O: unaona siku itaendelea: utafika ku kintu?
O: na hii Swahili yetu? utafika hata asema ku: njo ile Swahili inye tunasemaka ile?
O: hivi unaona?
S: minaona/ mais sasa: hii wakati ya sasa: nipate ya: kusikia/ mm? kusikia: kuandika ku mashini:
S: mm? mina: minaandika mu mashini sababu ya nini? ku hii enquête? sababu ya nini?
O: ile sawa utafika unaanza kusikia muzuri pa wee moya: njo unaanza sawa ku:
S: oui/ na nani a: kama: mm: [checking the tape] nazani inaisha sasa/
S: aah: kama una: unaona inashimama hapa kale...?...
|26.||26. But, as you see it now, I
am after something else?
S: A research project. How do you see this?
O: The one you are doing? No, no, I just ask because I want to know.
S: Mm. Still, you thought that I was doing something else (lit. I changed).
S: That I am after some other thing now?
O: What kind of other thing? I, I don't...
S: That it is not about Swahili that is spoken here. People may say, for instance, what you are doing is that you listen to a person (to find out) what he says about certain things. Mm.?
S: Perhaps people say what this man does with Swahili is no good (lit. this man has a bad Swahili)27.
S: Don't they say that?
O: They say that.
S: But what does that mean? (This person) speaks badly, or he has bad thoughts?
O: It means, both are the same.
S: Aha. Fine. You see? To learn Swahili, one must learn how to think, know how to think. Is that not true?
S: Right? Always, even we at the university, when we teach, we say that really to learn a language, one must...
O: ... learn it following the example of those who speak it.
S: That's it.
S: On must read their books but, more than that, one must go to the place, to their country. Mm? Live in their country, see how people work, thinks, speak, have fun, what makes them suffer. Right?
O: Now, about the way you observe.
O: Do you see like...
S: Therefore [short interruption, door is closed]
O: Do you see that, as time goes by, you will come up with something?
O: With that Swahili of ours? Will you get somewhere with the kind of Swahili we are speaking?
O: That's how you see it?
S: That's how I see it. But right now I want to get something to listen to. Mm? To listen (to what) gets recorded on the machine.
S: Mm? Why do I record this, in this research? Why?
O: So that you get to the point where you understand it well when you are by yourself, that is why you first ....
S: Yes. And then, when, mm [checking the tape], I think (the tape) is about to run out.
S: Yes, when you look you'll see that this little thing there has stopped...?...
1 This was a company-sponsored
2 This passage remain unclear. My guess is that Kazadi hinted at changes in the school's curriculum that were probably related to changing demands at the factory.
3 The references to localities are elliptic. Going on preceding information "there" would be Gécamines and "here" Metalkat, his employer at the time of this conversation.
4 The word in Swahili is kompund (with variants such as the originally locative form komponi and kampun or kampunj). The term that shows its English origin, going back to the times when South Africans managed the work force in Katanga. I keep to a somewhat awkward translation because "compound" connotes settlement for migrants worker without their families in southern Africa. "Company town" would be preferable except that it, too, has specific historical associations, especially with nineteenth century settlements in the US. A frequent synonym for kompund the time was cité, short for cité des travailleurs, a term that could be equivocal because it also referred either to the townships (Centre extra-coutumier), the native quarters of colonial times or to the squatters' towns that emerged after Independence (see below).
5 The names of the two largest squatters' town near Kolwezi. "Forrest" was the founder's name of an important construction company in Katanga.
6 This refers to the social or community center the company maintains in workers' settlement.
7 Called ville, that is, the commercial and residential center of town where in colonial times mainly Europeans lived.
8 This section starts somewhat clumsily. Local Swahili has two terms for language: One is lugha, which I used first. It can mean language as well as speech. Kazadi understood the latter and took my prompt to mean that I wanted him to talk. I countered with kinywa (lit. the mouth), which I felt was more specific and likely to get us questions of language and multi-lingualism that were on my mind.
9 The original has kiKasai, "the language spoken in the Kasai." Later he calls it kiLuba and that could be confusing (though not for him) because the ki- vs. tshi- opposition has been emblematic for the ethnic, often also social and political, distinction between Katanga and the Kasai region. But we are speaking Swahili, which does not have a tshi- prefix.
10 Kazadi said ah bon, lit. ah fine, perhaps to say that he found this topic a bit exasperating.
11 The question reflects what I had understood at the time; Kazadi's earlier response would indicate that he thought of Swahili as his first language.
12 This was the current term for the graduates from Mutoshi trade school.
13 Part of the recorded phrase is incomprehensible and there is no obvious clue that would permit to fill the gap.
14 This exchange was caused by my failure to recognize sa as a contraction of sawa, like. It also illustrates what I meant when I said earlier that certain variants such as youth-speak are difficult to understand.
15 What Kazadi tries to tell me that local or social differences are hardly noticeable except when certain expressions are "commented on," that is, used to characterize or perhaps mock certain speakers.
16 Because of the bad quality of the recording, Transcribing this part of our conversation was very difficult. The translation is my best guess.
17 The question implies doubt that it would not be easy to find work in this specialized field
18 Before the Gécamines hired Congolese in management and engineering cadre was the highest grade
Africans could attain. It went together with higher salaries and, above all, the right to be housed outside the workers' settlement.
19 Lit. "(A colonialist) is someone who scolds all the time ." "Lack of respect" is my translation of kibengo (the verb is kubenga), with does not occur in the Standard Dictionary. This is a Luba noun (see Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:63) with a complex meaning (it can also signify the required lack of respect in a joking-relationship).
20 That section, one of the most important ones in the electrolytic production of metals, was at the time headed by a Congolese engineer (Kibikiabo).
21 Part of this sentence is not comprehensible on the recording. My guess is that Kazadi wanted to tell his father lived close to a work of his (Kazadi's) team.
22 This is my translation for kazi ya mayi, lit. work with water, liquids. It is contrasted with kazi ya bulongo, lit. work with soil, solids.
23 I am pointing to the electrolysis section (situated opposite the part of the plant where Kazadi worked "with liquids"). Specifically to the work of detaching the sheets of metal that get deposited on the cathodes in the process of electrolysis.
24 The term is one of several that came from Fanagalo, the Nguni-based work language that was used before Swahili was introduced as work language in Katanga (see Fabian 1991).
25 In the original this passage shows that I was not quite up to expressing clearly what I had in mind. The translation is a reconstruction from memory - but that is true, more or less, of all translations.
26 In order to make clear what I meant I added the French gloss vie for uzima.
27 This is one of many uses of "Swahili" in these text and in everyday speech indicating that the term not only signifies a certain linguistic code but also specific contents. Swahili can be what I speak and what I say.
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