Recorded June 20, 1973 at the home
of Ngoie Kakweke, a foreman, in the workers' settlement of Métalkat.
|1.||S: ... ni kusema: hii shaurio
nilikuwa naye ni hivi/ hii kazi yangu: sawa vile nilikuelezea: ni kujua
zaidi zaidi: ah: mawazo ya bantu ya kazi/
O: wa bantu wa kazi/
S: njo vile/ kumbe: tulifanya kipande moya: tulifanya mu usine/
S: maneno mawazo ya muntu wa kazi: inabakia wapi? mu kazi yake/
S: eh? O ndiyo/
S: mara ingine: yee anarudia kwake: iko mu nyumba yake: iko na maisha yake/
S: mm/ haina maneno na usine: inazi: anasahabu ile usine/ sawa vile shee: shee wote: tutafanya kazi: kiisha: tutasahabu: kazi yetu/
|1.||S: …that is to say, what I planned
is this. As I explained to you, my project is above all to get to know the
thoughts of the workers.
O: Of the workers.
S: That's it. So, we did one part of that at the factory.
S: Because, where are the thoughts of a worker? At his work.
S: But then he goes home, he is in his house, and has his life.
S: Mm. What matter at the factory is gone. He forgets that factory. Like all of us, we will do our work and then we are going to forget about our work.
|2.||S: na: kumbe tu pa kwanza: aah:
baba: wee ulizaliwa wapi?
O: nilizaliwa Nkulu: Malemba Nkulu/
S: Malemba Nkulu?
S: mu Malemba Nkulu mwenyewe?
O: hapana/ Mulongo/
S: Mulongo/ ni mugini?
O: chef ule Mulongo/
S: oui oui oui/ si njo mugini na: kule kule mu: karibu na Kikondja?
O: kupita Kikondja: njo unafika Malemba Nkulu/
O: kiisha njo unafika Mulomba/ alafu Mulomba iko paka territoire ya Malemba Nkulu/
S: aah/ mu mwaka gani?
S: na kiisha: 1930?
|2.||S: So to start with, Baba, where
were you born?
O: I was born in Nkulu. Malemba Nkulu.
S: Malemba Nkulu?
S: (In the town) of Malemba Nkulu?
O: No, in Mulongo.
S: Mulongo. Is that a village?
O: (The place of) that chief Mulongo.
S: Of course, is'nt this a village there, close to Kikondja?
O: If you pass Kikondja you get to Malemba Nkulu.
O: Then you get to Mulomba. But Mulomba is part of Malemba Nkulu territory.
S: I see. What year (were you born)?
S: So it was 1930?
|3.||S: mm/ unaanza kuwa muzee [laughs]/
uko mukubwa yangu/ na kiisha: bon: ulizaliwa kule/
S: na uli: ulibakia kule weeee?
O: nilibakia kule nafwata masomo kiloko/
O: masomo mu primaire?
O: mu primaire ...
S: mu Mission?
O: ndiyo/ Mission paka Malemba/
O: ilikuwa paka ku internes/
|3.||S: Mm. You're getting to be an
old man [laughs]1, you are older than me.
So, alright, that is where you were born.
S: An did you lived there for a long time?
O: I lived there and went t
O: school for a short time.
S: To elementary school?
S: At the Mission?
O: Yes, at the Mission in Malemba.
O: At boarding school.
|4.||O: kiisha ...
S: na kiisha: ulienda: kupata: kupata (interruption) kiisha ulienda: kiisha kukomea ...
O: ndiyo/ njo kiisha minakuwa na miaka kumi na tisa/
O: minaanza na kazi ya Union Minière/
S: ni kazi ya Union Minière?... Luena/
O: na Luena ndiyo/
S: ah oui oui/ kule ku charbonnage/
O: ndiyo/ njo ...
S: bali: balimu: recruter namna gani?
S: bali: balikurecruter ao?
O: eh balikuwaka ...?... mutoto/ kiisha sasa asema: hautaweza ile kazi/ kazi ya contrat: maneno ...
S: na hii wakati balifanya nini? balifika mu mugini: ao wee ulifika mu bureau ao?
O: hapana: balifikaka mu mugini/
S: bale bantu ya: ya Union Minière?
O: tuko tu: tukamata/
S: balifika ...
O: na shee tunayokwenda ku mugini/
S: ah oui/ balifika ku chef/
S: And then you went to get (interruption) then you went -- so you were growing up…
O: Yes. So, then I was eighteen.
O: I began to work for the Union Minière.
S: Work for the Union Minière at Luena.
O: At Luena, yes.
S: Ah yes, there at the coal mine.
O: Yes, it was…
S: How did they recruit you?
S: They recruited you, or?
O: Yes they used to …?... (I was still) a child. Then I was told you are not up to this sort of work. Day labor, because….
S: What was the procedure in those days? Did they come to the village, did you go to an office, or (how did it go)?
O: No, they used to come to the village.
S: Those people of the Union Minière?
S: I see.
O: We were just picked up.
S: So they came…
O: And we were the ones who went to the village.2
S: I see, so they went to the chief's place.
S: I see.
|5.||S: kumbe: ulienda: uliingia mu
kazi: mu Luena: mulibakia Luena ...
O: mwezi: mwezi sawa/
S: mwezi saba/
O: hapana saba: kipande tu/
O: kiisha na kazi: inakuwa nguvu: mi mutoto/ tunashinda ile kazi: banaitufunga bulok
O: njo kututuma ku Kolwezi ku ...
S: kazi gani ya: ya ...
O: ya chimbotelo/
S: ya kimbotelo/
S: ya: ya nani: ya charbon?
O: ya charbon ndiyo/
|5.||S: Then you joined (the Union
Minière) at Luena, and you stayed at Luena…
O: For a month, just about a month.
S: For seven months.3
O: No, not seven (months), just a bit.
S: A bit.
O: It turned out that the work was hard, I was just a child. We were not up to that sort of work, so they put us in jail and sent us to Kolwezi…
S: What kind of work (were you supposed to do)?
O: (Work in) the mine.
S: In the mine.
S: In the coal (mine)?
O: In the coal mine, yes.
|6.||S: charbon tunasema namna gani
O: makala/ makala/
S: hata hii charbon ya: ya bulongo?
O: yote/ paka makala/
S: zamani bantu balijua hii charbon ya bulongo? hii charbon banatosha: banatosha mu ...
O: zamani kabisa? hapana/
S: paka paka makala: ya: ya mbao/
O: ya ku: ya mbao/
S: ya kuni/ eeh/
O: eh/ kule hapana/
O: muntu hakuyue/
|6.||S: What do we say for coal in
O: Makala. Makala.
S: Even for the coal that come from the ground?
O: All (kinds are called) makala.
S: In the old times, did people know this kind of coal that comes from the ground, the one they produce at…
O: Really long ago? No.
S: Just coal made from wood.
O: From wood.
S: From firewood, yes.
O: Right, not the other kind.4
O: (The other kind) wa
|7.||S: bon/ kumbe uli: uliingia: Luena:
kiisha balimu: nani ...
O: ndiyo/ tuma humu Kolwezi/
S: ya Gécamines?
O: ya Gécamines/ sasa: bale tulikuwa na
O: maneno shee bambalaka batoto bengine: bambalaka: asema: nyumba mu Kolwezi/ hamuna manen
O: mu cinquante/
O: Kolwezi yee bado ku ...?... kala/ paka Musonoi/ na bale banayenga nayenga tu manyumba kiloko sana/
O: ilikuwa paka kipande ya Trabeka/
S: oui oui/ na hii kompund ya Kolwezi bado ...
O: ku: ilikuwa tu manyumba ya kiloko kilok
O: manyumba ile ya zamani mina ...?... niko naona baliisha iliisha kufanya yote/ banaitutuma mu kompund moya mulok
O: ilikuwa ngambo/
O: ngambo sawa ya ka ...?... kule/
S: ah oui/
|7.||S: Fine. So you started at Luena,
then they -- what is the word?
O: Transfer [in French].
O: Yes, they transferred us here to Kolwezi.
S: At the Gécamines?
O: At the Gécamines?6 Now, our group - we were bachelors, some of them children --was assigned quarters in Kolwezi to stay out of trouble. (That was in 19)50.
O: At Kolwezi there was no place to stay yet, only at Musonoi where they kept building tiny houses.
S: I see.
O: This was part of Trabeka.7
S: Yes.8 And the workers' settlement at Kolwezi was not built yet.
O: Not yet. There were just those really small houses of the olden days. I saw all this being built. The sent us to a small workers' settlement, it was there on that side.
S: On that side.
O: On the side, over there.
S: I see.
|8.||O: njo tulikuwa: kiisha balitutoshamo/
sasa mutakwenda ku Ruwe: bambalaka/ tunabakia ku Ruwe/
O: sasa tunafika ku Ruwe: manyumba nab
O: kwa bule/ njo kuitutuma mu kazi: paka mu kazi mwenyewe/ mu usine/ pale kukuwa manyumba ingine: bek
O: nafikilia muzuri/
O: asema ku bampères ...
S: kule ku Ruwe?
S: oui oui oui/
O: paka ndani ya: kimbotel
O: paka mule mu kazi/
S: oui/ oui oui/
O: njo balitutuma mu ile nyumba/ shee bambalaka/ tuko nalala paka mule tulitumika/
S: mulilala wapi?
O: paka mu manyumba mule: mu nyumba ya mu kazi/
S: ah bon/
O: mu komponi hapana/ njo vile manyumba banaiepesha: kuko manyumba ya ...
S: nyumba ya mbao? ao?
O: hapana: ya biuma/
S: ya biuma/
|8.||O: And then they made us leave
there. Now you bachelors move to Ruwe (they said). So we were to stay in
O: Now we arrived in Ruwe, the houses there were worthless. And then they really made us t
O: work, in the factory. The houses there were different, they …(at any rate) I got there safely.
O: It was near where the missionaries lived.
S: Over there in Ruwe?
O: (In) Ruwe.
S: Yes, I see.
O: Right inside the mine, at the place of work.
S: Yes, I see.
O: That is where they put us into those houses. We, the bachelors, simply slept where we worked.
S: [incredulous] Where did you sleep?
O: Just in the house there, in the houses at the place of work.
S: Ah, alright.
O: Not in a camp (workers' settlement). That's how houses were assigned. There were houses…
S: Wooden dwellings, or?
O: No, (they were) metal (constructions).
S: (Made of) metal.
|9.||S: mm/ bon/ kumbe ulifanya hii
kazi mu Ruwe/
S: weee: mwezi ngapi? miezi ...
O: miaka tatu/
S: miaka tatu?
S: paka mu tshimbotelo?
O: hapana: mu laverie/
S: njo ilikuwa kazi yako/
S: ulikuwa sawa maoeuvre ao?
O: nilikuwa: nilikuwa napima: maneno juu: balikuwa namwanga mayi kule/
O: eh/ iko natafuta kil
O: juu ya: bulongo ikuwe kilo/ sasa niko napima densité: ile kilo namna: tuko na tableau/
O: tuko naandika huku: kule banaona asema kilo inapanda/ kama inakuwa mayi: bo banaanza kutuma bulongo mingi/
S: oui oui/ oui/
O: kiisha minatumika mbele ku baajusteurs/
O: eeh/ na balitutosha/
S: na hii: hii wakati: cote yako ...
O: cote pale nilikuwa na cote: sita/
S: c'est ça/ sita/
|9.||S: Mm. Alright. So you had this
job at Ruwe.
S: For how long, how many months…
O: For three years.
S: Three years?
S: Always in the mine.
O: No, (also) also in the laverie (where the ore is washed).9
S: The laverie.
S: So that was your work.
S: So you were (something like)an unskilled worker, or?
O: I took measurements (instrument readings) because that was where (ore10 and) water were mixed.
O: Yes, it was to monitor weight so that the ore would have the proper weight. I measured the density, the kind of weight. We had a writing pad.
O: We wrote it down and then it would be looked at they might say that the weight was rising. If it was the water they would begin to send a lot of ore.
S: Yes, I see.
O: After that I first worked with the pipe-fitters.
O: Yes, and then they took us away (from that crew).
S: So at that time, your cote (ranking) was?
O: Then I had cote six.
S: That's it. Six.
|10.||S: mm/ na: kumbe uliendelea/ kiisha
kutoka Ruwe: ulienda wapi?
O: balinirudishia tena Luena/
S: unarudia tena Luena?
O: narudia tena Luena/
S: bali: balikutransférer: eh?
O: ah ba: juu niliombaka: ni kusema kazi ya usiku hii: ah inanipita/ njo kufanya matata: asema kumbe wende paka ku: kule ku: ulianza kazi: njo kuko mafiches yako/
O: bataangaria muzuri namna gani/
O: tulikwenda ku Luena: kufika ku Luena: asema tumike/ minatumika paka mwezi moya bule/ asema mutakwenda ngambo Kolwezi/
|10.||S: Mm. And then you went on. After
you left Ruwe where did you go?
O: The made me go back to Luena.
S: You went back to Luena?
S: I see.
O: I went back once again to Luena.
S: The had you transferred, right?
O: Ah, it was because I kept asking for it. Working the night shift, well, that was too much for me. So the made trouble (for me). Then you just go there, the place where you stared to work. It's in you files.
O: They are going to take a good look at how (to deal with your problem).
O: We went to Luena. When I got to Luena I was told to work. I worked just for a month; (it was) useless. Then I was told, you are going to the Kolwezi area.
|11.||O: tuko tuma tena mu Kolwezi:
tunafika mule asema: mutakwenda ku Métalkat/
S: ni hii wakati Métalkat ilianza?
O: hii Métalkat inaanza 53/
S: na kiloko?
S: na ... balikuwa kuyenga eh?
O: eeh/ ba ...?... banayenga: shee tunaanza kutengeneza yote: matranchée
S: tuna ...
S: kumbe wee ulikuwa mu Métalkat mbele ya: ya: ya kuanzia ...
O: kazi bado kufungula/
S: ah/ kazi bado kufungula/
O: kwenda tumika tu na wazungu bengine: bazungu bengine tulikuwa nao tungaliki nabo/
S: na mulipata manyumba?
O: manyumba humu? ndiyo/ humu tulipata manyumba/
S: humu ...
O: mu Métalkat /
S: hii kompund?
S: iliisha ku ...
O: eh ndiyo/ manyumba iliisha kuisha/
O: paka hii kipande: kuko manyumba: hii avenue ...
O: Tanganika: na hii avenue ingine: ile ya wa nani/
S: oui oui/
O: njo ilionaka ...?... /
S: oui oui/ minaona/
O: kulikuwa manyumba/
|11.||O: We are sending you on to Kolwezi.
When we arrived there they said: You are going to Métalkat.12
S: Was this when Métalkat was started?
O: Métalkat was started in 1953.
S: And (it was still) small?
S: And they were doing construction work, right?
O: Yes. They …?... were building. We began with to prepare everything, the ditches, we…
S: So you were at Métalkat before (production) began…
O: Work (the plant) had not opened yet.
S: I see, the plant had not opened yet.
S: I see.
O: We went to work with other13 Europeans and continued with the for a while.
S: And you got housing.
O: (You mean) house here (where we are now)? Yes, we got housing here.
O: At Métalkat.
S: In this camp?
S: It was already…
O: Yes, the houses were already finished.
S: I see.
O: Right in this part, there were houses. This Avenue..,
O: Tanganika, and this other street, what was it again?
O: You could see it (lit. it was visible) (from here)…?...
S: Yes. Yes, I see it.
O: There were houses.
|12.||S: mm / unaona: bon: kiisha uliendelea
O: cinquante: 53: tunafika humu/
S: eh: 53 déja/
O: eeh/ kiisha: 54: na hivi tuko naendela na sasa/
S: hii makazi ulifanya: mu mwanz
O: mu mwanzo ulifanya nini?
O: mu mwanz
O: tunafanya kazi: tunafika humu: hamukuwe kazi ingine/ njo tunaanza kukata: kufanya mapoupées na Monsieur Jules (?)/
O: eeh/ tuko natengeneza mabonpon/
O: tuko tunatengeneza paka mu bomponi hii: tunatengeneza na bomponi/
|12.||S: Mm. You see, [making another
start], alright, so then you went on (to stay) for a long time. (Was this
in 19) 54?
O: We got here in '53.
S: I see, already in '53.
O: Yes. And then came '54 and so we continued until now.
S: What kinds of work did you do at the beginning?
O: In the beginning we worked - when we got here there was only one kind of work in this place. That was when we began to cut, to make mapoupées14 with Mister Jules.
O: Yes. We were setting up mabonpon.
O: We were setting up things in this place where the mabonpon were.
|13.||O: kiisha. balitutuma mu kazi/
mu kazi tunaanza kufanya kazi ya tranchées/
S: tranchées kule ...
O: matranchées ya kuweka nkamba ya moto/
S: oui oui/
O: na: matranchées ingine ya ...
S: kuchimbula matranchées/
O: ndiyo kuchimbula matranchées ingine ya kupita: mayi/
S: oui oui/
|13.||O: After that they sent us to
(another) place where we began to work on the ditches.
S: The ditches there…
O: The ditches to lay the cables for electricity.
O: And other ditches for…
S: Digging ditches.
O: Yes, digging other ditches for the water supply.
|14.||O: kiisha tunafanya ile: banaitutosha
bengine bengine: bengine banabakia paka ku ile kazi/ kiisha banaitutosha
shee: mi balinitoshaka: banaipeleka ku baplombiers/
S: ku baplombiers?
O: tuko nafanya: kuweka malata mu ile: électrolyse/
S: c'est ça/
O: eeh/ tuko nafanya na ma ...
S: macathodes na anodes ...
O: tuko nawekaweka/
O: weee: kiisha: wa: ile kazi inaisha:
|14.||O: The we did this - the took
some (of the workers) away, other stayed with this work. So they took us
away. I was transferred from there and put among the plumbers.
S: Among the plumbers?
S: I see.
O: We were placing the metal sheets in the electrolysis shop.
O: Yes, we were setting up the…
S: …cathodes anodes…
O: We were setting them up.
O: This went on for quite a while until this work was finished.
|15.||O: njo kututuma tena mu kazi:
bananitosha tena kutuma: njo mu usine mwenyewe/ ku mayi kule/
O: ndiyo/ kule tu/
S: mu: kumbe mu ngambo yako sasa bana ...
O: kiisha banapa: kiisha tunatoka ku baplombiers kule/ [takes a moment to light a cigarette]
S: oui: ulitoka ku plombiers/
S: bana: banasema namna gani? plombier ni kazi ya: ya chapu ao?
O: ya chapu/ mm/
S: oui/ na mu ngambo yak
O: ya sasa: ni kazi ya?
O: hapana: hii sasa: ngambo ya sasa: iko kazi ingine/
S: non non: hii kazi unafanyaka sasa/
S: ni kazi: kazi gani? kazi ya?
O: ya mayi/
S: ya mayi?
S: [laughs] mayi ina: maneno mayi inaendelesha/.
|15.||O: Then, from there I was transferred
to the plant itself. Over there, to the "water."15
S: I see.
O: Yes, to that place.
S: That is to say the side of the plant were you work now. They…
O: Then they, then we left the plumbers' crew there. [takes a moment to light a cigarette]
S: Yes, so you left the plumbers' crew.
S: How is that called? (To work as a plumber) is "shop work" or?
O: Shop (work), yes.
S: Yes. And where you work now, what is it called?
O: No, the place (where I work) now, that is a different kind of work.
S: No, no, (I mean) the work you are doing now.
S: That is what kind of work? The work?
O: With "water."
S: With "water?" O Yes,
S: [laughs] Because (that is where) water is made to run through.
S: I see.
|16.||O: sasa: bananitosha kule: kunituma:
bananituma ku chapu mécanique/ sasa bananipa muzungu ni Lucien: iko mu électrolyse/
S: oui/ Lucien?
O: eh/ mais sawa: nayee tulikuwa natumika naye paka mu chapu mécanique/
S: ah bon/
O: sasa: kutupa: alinipa yee: kazi ya soudeur/
O: eeh/ tuko nafanya: paka tunatumikia paka pa mafiltres/ ile mafiltre yetu/
S: oui: ni mwee mulifanya?
O: shee/ tuko nasouder/
S: ya filtre: filtre: nani: Oliver?
O: filtre Oliver/ eeh
S: oui oui/
O: eeh/ na Monsieur Lucien/
O: tuko nabeba ma: mambomboni/ hakukuye ya kutumikia chini/ tuko nakuwa kubeba mambomboni ku magasin huyu/
O: paka pa mabega/ pa kupanda naye mu ngazi: lufu/
|16.||O: Then they took me away from
there and sent me to the mechanics shop. They gave me European (supervisor),
Lucien. He is (now) in the electrolysis shop.
S: Yes. Lucien?
O: Yes, but (at that time) we worked with him in the mechanics shop.
S: Oh, right.
O: Next he let me work as a welder.
S: A welder.
O: Right. What we did was to work where the filters are, those filters of ours.
S: Yes, so that's what you did?
O: We were welding.
S: The filter, what is it called, Oliver?
O: The Oliver filter, yes.
O: Right, with Mister Lucien.
O: We used to carry the gas bottles. One could not work with them downstairs. We used to carry the bottle from this storage place.
O: On our shoulders. To carry them up the stairs was killing us.
S: The bottle (was so heavy)?
O: And how.
S: I see.
|17.||O: buzito/ sasa: minaona kazi
O: kuya mu komponi: mi kulala hapana/ juu ya ...
S: juu ya nini?
O: moto kabisa/
S: hii: moto ...
O: électrique eeh/ ni vile minaomba na bwana mukubwa ule: asema hapana/ anakatala/ ...?... kutumika paka hii kazi paka yote ...
S: mulikuwa na makalashi?
O: makalashi: paka ule soudeur: yee mwenyewe monsieur/ maneno zamani ilikuwa paka: balifanya paka mu: bantu mingi bo bado kuyua souder: paka muzungu yee moya/
S: eh eh/
O: shee njo ba kumukamatia: wee fanye hivi: mot
O: ah/ ts ts/ shiyue minas nema na bwana mukubwa: anasema mi siyue: hana muzuri/ asema hakuna/
O: kiisha: mu siku mu siku mu siku: bananiitika asema paka tunaona muntu ingine/
O: njo alituleta muntu ingine: tunachanger naye/ mi njo kunitosha sasa: njo kunituma fasi kule niko/
|17.||O: The weight… Then I noticed
that his work was getting on my eyes. When I came back to the camp, I did
not sleep. Because….
S: Because of what?
O: Because the flame (welding arc) was very hot.
S: This flame…
O: This electrical (arc), yes. So I begged this boss (to let me work elsewhere). But the answer was No. He refused ...?... we simply had to do all kinds of work.
S: Did you have (protective) goggles?
O: Goggles - only the (master) welder, the European (lit. "Mister himself"). Because they way it was in those days, many Africans did not know yet how to weld, only the European.
S: Is that so?
O: We - the would take a person and tell him this is how you do it. Ah, ts, ts [making a sound of regret or disapproval). I told the bos
S: I don't know, this is no good. No way (was his answer).
O: Then (when I insisted) day after day, they agreed, saying: Only when we see someone else (who can replace you).
O: Someone else was brought to us and we exchanged (places). So I was taken away and sent to the place where I am now.
|18.||O: tunaanza kutumika bule: kiisha:
banaanza kunipatiako na: bukapita/ niko naanza kukombola kapita alikuwa
hapa: njo nilianza kufanya: niko natumika na nguvu yangu: tena na mayele/
O: ah/ kama ...? ... banaona
O: iko nguvu/ njo minaanza kukombola kapita/ asema kapita kama maladi: njo utamukombola/
O: kiisha: hata kulala hapana: tunaanza kutumika paka shee bote/ nalikuwa na capita Picot/
S: hii fasi: hii wakati nani alikuwa kapita?
O: alikuwa capita Picot/
O: ndiyo/ na Samukonga: anaisha kutoka pension/
S: ah bon/
O: sawa Samukonga ikoapo/
O: Samukonga ndiyo/ aliisha kutoka pension/
O: alafu Picot: yee alitokaka ...
|18.||O: In the beginning I did ordinary
work, then I was given the tasks of a foreman. I began to substitute for
the foreman who used to be there. What I did was work with (all) my strength
S: It was tough. (But) I began to substitute for the foreman. When he was sick they told me: You are going to replace him.
O: So there was no taking it easy, we all worked (hard). My foreman was Picot.
S: In that place, who was foreman at the time?
O: Picot was the foreman.
O: Yes. Samukonga had left (when his got his) pension.
S: Ah, alright.
O: Samukonga had been there.
O: Samukonga, yes. He had retired.
S: I see.
O: But (then) Picot left…
|19.||S: Picot alikuwa muzungu yee?
O: hapana alikuwa muntu mweusi/
S: na jina ya sawa? Picot? [laughs] jina wa: jina ya waBelges?
O: [laughs] alikuwa muntu mweusi/
S: ni jina yake ya: ya: ya: ku ukristiani ao? paka Picot?
O: sijue: mai
S: hapana ...
S: ao alikuwa Angolais ao?
O: Angolais ndiyo/ hapana: paka Congolais/
O: eeh/ tena paka wa territoire yetu/
S: eyo/ Malemba Nkulu?
O: Malemba Nkulu ndiyo/
S: mi nilikutana: nilikutana: eh: mu Lubumbashi: twiko mu institut yetu: anthropologie: muntu moya anatumikaka kule:
S: Nkulu Richard/ ni: ni mutoto ya: ya chef/
O: ya chef/
S: Nkulu/ na yee ali: alipashwa kumufwata baba yake: kama baba yake alikufa/ mais alikatala/ kumbe sasa ni: ni nduku yake alimufwata/ Nkulu/
|19.||S: Picot, was he a European?
O: No, he was a black man.
S: With a name like that? Picot? A Belgian name?
O: [laughs] He was a black man.
S: Was that his Christian name, or? Just Picot?
O: I don't know. But, no… S; Or was he maybe an Angolan?
O: An Angolan, yes. No, he was a Congelese.
O: Yes. Not only that, he came from our country.
S: I see. Malemba Nkulu?
O: Malemba Nkulu, yes.
S: In Lubumbashi I once met someone (who came from there). There was someone at our anthropology department who worked there.
O: I see.
S: Nkulu Richard, he is the son of the Chief (of Malemba Nkulu).
O: Of the chief.
S: (Chief) Nkulu. And he was to be the successor when his father died. Bit he refused (to take the office). So now a brother of his followed (Chief) Nkulu.
|20.|| bon: kiisha: njo balimuweka sawa
O: ha: ndiyo/
S: mu mwaka gani?
O: bukapita kabisa kabisa: minapata: nilikuwa kapita: filitration/
O: kiisha: minatumika ku: kule pachuca ku lixiviation/ kulikuwa nak
O: kapita ingine/
O: kiisha mu soixante: mu soixante: njo bananipi: bananipa: kapita général/
O: maneno balitufanyaka ...
S: ah oui kapita général/
|20.||Alright, so then they made you16
S: What year was that?
O: I got the job of foreman with all rights and privileges when I became foreman of the filtration section.
O: After that I worked there at the pachuca17 in the leaching section. Someone else was the foreman there.
O: And then, in '60, in '60, they made me a supervisor (lit.general foreman).
O: Because we used to make us….
S: Ah, yes, supervisor.
O: They …?...
|21.||S: sasa: mu équipe yak
O: kapita ya filtration ni nani? Ngongo?
O: Ngongo/ ndiyo/
S: na kapita: muko na kapita ingine?
O: tuko na ungine/
O: Kayembe Roland: maneno haukuona naye/
S: non non/ alikuwa mu congé/ Kayembe/
O: ndiyo/ eeh/
|21.||S: Now, who is the foreman of
filtration in your team? Ngongo?
O: Ngongo, yes.
S: And do you have another foreman?
O: We have another one.
S: Who is this?
O: Kayembe Roland. (You don't know him) because you have seen him.
S: No, no. He has been away on vacation. Kayembe.
O: Yes. Right.
|22.||S: aah/ na: bon/ huyu ni: ni mambo
ya kazi inanifaa kujua mai
S: sasa: hii: sasa ni miaka: ni makumi mbili/
S: unaisha kukala hapa mu kompund/
S: sasa unona weye: ku macho yak
O: unaona hii maisha mu: mu kompund ni namna gani?
O: mais maisha yangu minaona: komponi hivi sawa tuko mu komponi: sawa maisha yangu ile nilikuwa naye zamani: si hii ya sasa hapana/
S: non/ inaachana namna gani?
O: inaachana ku mwikali
O: haina namna moya hapana/ njo bale ...
S: inaachana mu nini?
S: oui/ mai
S: namna gani?
O: juu pale tulikuwa zamani/
O: eh: mi nilikuwa mutot
O: mulikuwa bantu bengine: bantu wa zamani: ya société: MÉTALKAT: alikuwa nabeletak
O: heshima/ anayua ...
O: analetako na heshima/
S: heshima: oui oui/
S: hii zamani: balifanya/
O: ndiyo/ muzungu wote: anayua asema: huyu ni muntu wa sasa: hata kama unamuelezea mamb
O: atasikia: kiisha: atayua namna gani: ah: ndiy
O: ndiyo ndiyo hivi/ sasa ku sasa: ah: ni kutumika tu: bule/
S: kutumika tu bule?
O: bule eeh/ juu na muntu ungine kutakukuya tu sasa: yee bado kuyua asema MÉTALKAT huyu: alikuwa nini: hapa balikuwa nini: hapa alikuwa nini/ atafika kukombela ya: muzungu/
O: ah: sikia hivi na hivi: mara moya anamuitika yee pasip
O: kuyua: kintu gani ni nini/
O: sawa bakubwa: wa bengine: bale tulikombola shee: ah: habakutumika vile/
|22.||S: Alright then. These were things
about work I needed to know but now - it has been twenty years now.
S: That you have been living here in the camp.
S: Now, as you see it, in your eyes, how do you see this life in a camp?
O: The way I see my life in the camp, my life in the camp now is not what it used to be long ago.
S: No. How is it different?
O: The difference is in the way (it feels) to live here, it's not the same. It is those…
S: It is different in what?19
O: It is different.
S: Yes, but how?
O: Because - (compared to how) we used to be in the old days.
O: Yes. When I was still very young there were others, old timers of MÉTALKAT. One would pay them respect, one would know…
S: Pay (what)?
O: Pay (them) respect.
S: Respect, Yes.
S: That's what they used to do in the old days.
O: Yes. Every European would know this person is a newcomer and when you explain things to him he will understand, he will know how (things work). Yes, (this person would say) this is how it works. Nowadays, ah, it's just plain stupid work.
S: Plain stupid work?
O: Stupid, yes. Because, nowadays, someone may be a newcomer, he doesn't know yet what MÉTALKAT was about, what the people (did who used to work) here. He may get to replace a European.
O: He, he hears this and that and goes to work right a way without knowing what it is about.
O: Some of the older ones, those whom we replaced, ah, they did not work like that.
|23.||O: sawa mwaka ya sasa/
O: haina/ sasa njo kusema societé: tunamuona sawa: anakuwa sawa: anatoka mu mambo ile tulikuwa nayo/
O: ile: hii société anakuwa sawa ya: t
S: mukono hivi paka ya gouvernement/
O: mambo inakuwa sawa ile inatoka mu gouvernement ku ...
S: sawa bulamatari/
O: eeh: sawa bulamatari/
S: ni kusema: société: yee inabakia mu ngambo yake: mwee ... sawa vile unaona kama: kama ...
O: njo vile tunawaza bantu mingi/
S: kama balimiacha/
O: aah/ ndiyo/ tuko naona sawa société anatuacha/ mbele tulikala muzuri sana/
O: ah: société atayua: MÉTALKAT anayua asema: muntu fulani: mi njo na niko natengeneza: mi njo bulamatadi yake/
O: eeh/ anayua: nyumba yake iko namna gani: watoto/ pa kuikala muntu vile: atafanya namna gani: atakulya nini: atafanya: yee MÉTALKAT: yee mwenyewe Picquet: ataweza kufanya juu anayua yee/
O: bulamatadi yee hapana yua yee/
S: oui oui/
|23.||O: (This is how it is) now (lit.
O: No way, nowadays we see that the situation in the company is no longer what we had earlier.
O: This company has become something like an arm of the government.
O: It is the government that dictates how things are run….
S: It's like bulamatari (the colonial state).
O: Yes, like bulamatari.
S: In other words, the company is after its own interest (lit. stays on its side)…as you see it is like…
O: Many of us think that this is the case.
S: Like they abandoned you.
O: A, yes. As we see it the company abandoned us. Before, our situation was quite good.
O: Ah, the company, MÉTALKAT, would take responsibility (lit. know). When someone (had a problem it would say): I am the one who takes care of the problem, I am his bulamatadi.
O: (The company) would know about the state of his house, about his children. For a person to stay here - how was he to make it, what was he going to eat? - it was MÉTALKAT, Picquet (the director) himself could do something because he was informed.
O: Bulamatadi, the state, doesn't know.
|24.||S: na unaona kama ni bubaya hii:
hii kintu ki: kinaonekana sasa?
O: bubaya unapita sasa/
S: habanabakia tena bazungu bengine: mwenye ku: kusikia bantu: mwenye kujua kupenda bantu? haba: habanabakia tena?
O: hapana: beko/
O: bengine beko ...
S: mais ...
O: namna ya kufanya: iko nguvu/
O: na shee naye tunarudia paka ku: ku bazungu/ pasipo muzungu sheye: t
S: nawaza hatuwezi kuikala muzuri/ tuko naikalako namna moya ...
S: si njo bankambo balikala muzuri pasipo muzungu?
S: si njo bankambo muzuri pasipo bazungu?
O: maneno shee tunakuwa bantu: mingi/
O: mayele kilok
O: she sawa tunakimbia mu bulamatadi: ni kutafuta kuharibisha ya bule/
|24.|| S: I your view, is what happens
now something bad?
O: Nowadays it is worse than bad.
S: Are no Europeans left who understand and like Africans? Are there none of those left?
O: No, there are.
S: There are.
O: There are some…
O: It is difficult (for them) to act accordingly.
S: I see.
O: An we come back to the Europeans. I think, without the European return, we cannot do well. We are always the same…
S: Didn't your ancestors do well without Europeans?
S: Didn't your ancestors do well without Europeans?
O: (Things are bad now) because we people20 are many.
O: But there is little we know how to do. We run to bulamatadi and that is to mess up things.
S: kama una: una: sawa hii: mwee munaikala huku ma: mu kompund/
S: bantu bengine beko mu cité: ao mu Caroline/
S: unaona sawa inaachana namna gani?
O: ah si tunaikala hapa muzuri: she tunaikala muzuri juu: tuko nafanya kazi/
S: oui/ kumbe: kuikala mu kompund inapita: kuikala inje?
O: kuikala inje? kama pasipo kufanya kazi ao niko nafanya kazi?
S: non: kama: mara ingine tuseme: kwa mufano/
S: wee uko mu kazi yako/
S: sasa unayenga ...
O: nyumba kule/
S: nyumba kule cité/ ao ku Caroline/
S: itapita hii?
O: hii inapita/ inapita/
O: hii inakuwa ku: ile ile ya kuikala kule kama niko na nyumba ...
O: ndiyo/ juu: maneno bale banaikala tena muzuri/ shee tunaikala sawa mu komponi/
O: inakuwa tena sawa: t
S: sawa tuko mu buloko/ maneno ...
S: mu buloko/
|25.||S: Still, if you - let's put it
S: You live here in the camp.
S: Other live in the cité (township), or in Caroline (a squatters' settlement).
S: How does this differ in your view?
O: We are alright here. We are alright because we work.
S: Right, so living in a camp is better than living outside?
O: Living outside? (You mean) without working or if you work?
S: No, no let's take an example.
S: You live in the place where you work.
S: Now, if you were to build…
O: (Build) a house there.
S: A house in the cité or in Caroline.
O: I see.
S: Would this be better.
O: This would be better. It would be better.
S: (Than) this here?
O: Living there, if I had a house…
O: … would be better.
S: It would be better.
O: Yes. Because those people live well there. We stay in a camp.
O: That is - how shall I say?-we are like in a prison because…
S: I a prison.
|26.||O: eeh/ mambo mingi: ule anatoka
mpembeni: mbele: ilikuwa muzuri sana mu kompond/
O: maneno sasa: hapana/ ule atatoka mpembeni: anakuya kumufanya matata/ ah: anatafuta vile yake tu anasema: huyu: eh: na société tuna sawa Picquet: habakutana hapana/
O: ao kama banyuaka kama hawayuake siyue/ yee hapana katala/ nayee atasema: ni bulamatadi anasema/
O: ha/ mbele haikuwe vile/ changachanga: na pa kufika humu: muntu wa bulamatadi:
O: matata/ paka na ruhusa kabisa kabisa/
S: haikuwa muzuri ... Houyet?
O: Houyet muzuri sana/ ya muntu yote ya ...
S: si njo muntu makali/
O: muzuri sana sana/
S: mi minamujua/
O: yee: tunatumika hapa na miaka mingi: tunalala: na bantu bengine: banalala ku nguvu: bantu banabakia ku nguvu ya: ya: ya Houyet/
S: ah oui?
O: yee/ yee iko makari: alafu tunamubembeleza namna gani? maneno kazi ilikuwa nguvu/
S: ali: alisema Swahili?
O: Swahili yake ...
S: Swahili vizuri?
O: hapana [laughs]/ hapana/ Kiswahili muzuri hapana/
S: non [laughs]
O: [laughs] Kiswahili muzuri hapana/
S: sasa alifanya namna gani kwa: kwa kukata maneno ao?
O: kukata: alikuwa nakata ya mu mbiombio/ hata inakupita: u tafikia asema eh ...
S: kupita sasa? sasa ni ...
O: kama ina: wee hapana sikia muzuri …
O: utasikia tu asema eh: ile minasema: haina mamb
O: minasema kunaisha/ wee moya utaona/ paka yee anawaza: atatengeneza mambo yako kama iko mubaya: anatengeneza kama ilikuwa muzuri: anatengeneza/ unaikala: unaanza kufanya kazi/
S: na alikuwa kujua bantu ...
O: kuyua bantu yote kabisa/ kujua bantu wote/
S: mm/ oui oui: mai
S: minamujua: tuliikala mu nyumba yake/ yee alienda mu congé/ ah? na shee tuli: tulichunga nyumba yake pa Lubumbashi/ sasa/ mbele ya kufika/
S: Willy [laughs]/
|26.||O: Yes. In many ways, the person
who leaves for the other side… [makes a new start] It used to be that (life)
was very good in a camp.
O: Nowadays this is no longer the case. The person who is going to leave for the other side is going to make trouble for him. He is only going to see after his (own interests). Yes. And there is no one any more who is interested in the company, (the way it used to be in the times of) Picquet.
O: Or is it because they don't know better? I don't know. ? He does not refuse. And he is going to say: That is what the government says.21
O: Yes. It did not use to be like that. (Nowadays) the changachanga22 (camp manager) comes to this place as a representative of the government…
O: … that means trouble. Everything must be authorized.
S: Wasn't is fine (when Mr.) Houyet (used to be camp manager)?
O: Houyet was very good (with) everyone…
S: But isn't he a severe person?23
O: (He is) very good.
S: I know him.
O: He - we worked with him here for many years. We lived quietly24 with other people. People had strength and if they kept their strength this was due to Houyet.
O: He was tough but how were we going to soften him? Because work was hard (we had to respect him).
S: Did he speak Swahili?
O: His Swahili…
S: (Did he speak) Swahili well?
O: No [laughs], no. (His) Swahili wasn't good.
S: No [laughs].
O: [laughs] (His) Swahili wasn't good.
S: Then how did he manage when it came to settling palavers?
O: About settling (palavers) - he used to make his decision very fast. Even if you did not understand (lit. it was above your head). You would come (to discuss)…
S: (Was it faster) then now? Nowadays it takes….
O: If you did not understand well (what he said)…
O: …you would just listen and he would say: There is nothing (to discuss), I make the decision (lit. I speak) and that's it. You are going to figure it out for yourself. He would just think (about the matter) and settle your affair if you whether you were wrong or right. There you were, and you would go back to work.
S: And he knew the people….
O: He really know everyone, everyone.
S: Mm. Yes, well, I know him, I know him, we used to stay in his house. He went on leave, you understand? And we guarded his house in Lubumbashi. This was recently, before I arrived (here).
S: Willy [laughs].
|27.||S: bon/ sasa donc: hii: hii kintu
ya kuuliza ni juu ya lugha/ sawa sawa nilikuuliza: yee alisema Swahili muzuri/
S: ah: ah: kwanza: tuanze na: na: tena na maisha yako/
S: kumbe kwa utot
O: ulisema paka Kiluba/ si vile?
O: ku butoto yangu?
S: yako/ kama ulizaliwa: kama ulianza ku: kusema?
O: eeh/ nilikuwa nasema paka Kiluba/
S: paka Kiluba?
O: eeh/ paka Kiluba/
S: hapana lugha ingine?
S: paka: paka Kiluba
O: paka Kiluba/
S: hata Swahili?
O: Swahili paka: t
S: mara moya kuk
O: hapana/ ya muntu: sawa bengine banafika kwetu:
S: oui oui/
O: muntu ingine: njo utasumbulia naye/
S: mais uliisha: ulisikia?
O: kusikia eeh/
S: oui oui/
|27.||S: Fine, now the thing I want
to ask about is language as I already asked you whether he (Houyet) spoke
S: First lets start once again with your life.
S: So, during childhood you only spoke Kiluba, right?
O: During my childhood?
S: Yes. (What was the language) after you were born and began to speak?
O: I see. I only spoke Kiluba.
S: Only Kiluba?
O: Yes, only Kiluba.
S: No other language?
S: Only Kiluba.
O: Only Kiluba.
S: Maybe (also) Swahili?
O: Swahili only now and then, not really, when other people came to us.
O: You would chat with a stranger (in Swahili).
S: But you understood it already (as a child)?
O: Yes I did.
|28.||S: na kiisha uliingia mu: mu masomo?
S: et mu masomo uli: ulifunda nini?
O: paka Kiswahili/
S: paka Kiswahili/
S: ya hii Kiswahili bora: ya sarufi?
O: ni paka Kiswahili ya sarufi/
S: eyo/ na masomo yote: ulifanya primaire/
O: nilifanya premiere: minapitia mu quatrième/
S: na hii classe: inne: mulifunda paka ...
O: paka na Français/
S: hapana Français?
O: na Français/
S: na Français vilevile…
S: mulianza mu: ma classe gani?
O: mu: deuxième/
S: mu deuxième?
S: kumbe: première: ilikuwa paka Swahili/
O: paka Swahili bule/
S: mais deuxième: mulianza na ...
O: Français kiloko/
S: Français kiliko/
|28.||S: And then you went to school?
S: At what did you learn at school?
O: Only Swahili.
S: Only Swahili.
S: Proper, grammatical Swahili?
O: Yes, we only had grammatical Swahili.
S: I see. Throughout school, you did the first grade…
O: I did the first grade and moved on to fourth grade.
S: Fourth grade.
S: And in fourth grade you studied only…
O: Only in French.
S: Not in French?
O: Only in French.
S: In French…
S: You began in which grade?
O: In second grade.
S: In second grade?
S: So then in first grade it was only Swahili.
O: Just Swahili.
S: But in second grade you began with…
O: …a little French.
S: A little French.
|29.||mm/ na kiisha: kukomea: ulienda:
O: kazi ndiyo/
S: uli: ulifunda tena lugha ingine?
O: lugha ingine hapana/ non/
S: hata sasa una
S: unaweza kusema lugha ngapi?
O: paka Swahili/
O: ah Français mi siyue/
S: ooh: wee unasikia?
O: ah: ts/
O: sisikiake kabisa/
S: ah: ni sawa mi/
O: kichwa yangu ilikuwa maneno bengine tulikuwa nab
O: mu fasi moya: masomo moya: lakini mi pa kufanya maexamen: mi niko natoka mbele yabo/
S: oui oui/
O: eh/ lakini pa kusema Françai
S: mi: kusema upesi hapana/ sasa bo ku mukongo yangu banasema…
S: oui oui: minajua hata mi/ ...?...
O: iko nasema: mi: hapana/
S: nilijikaza weee mais [laughs]/
O: pa kufanya examen: mi niko paka katoka paka mbele: hata ku Français sawa: ku kuandikayo/ sasa huyu anasemay
O: anaandika mubaya/ mi: kusemayo hapana: minaandika muzuri/
O: minapata points mingi ku Français/
O: pasipo kuyua: Français muzuri/
S: oui oui/
O: sasa yee iko nasema Françai
S: yee anakosa/ niko nashinda/
|29.||Mm. Then you grew up and went
looking for work.
O: Work, yes.
S: Did you learn other language(s)?
O: No other language(s), no.
S: So now, how many languages can you speak?
O: No (not many).
O: Just Swahili.
O: Ah, I don't know French.
S: Oh, but you understand it?
O: Ah, not really.
S: A little.
O: I don't really understand it well.
S: It's the same with me.25
O: I simply did not have the head for it. Because compared to others with whom we were at the same school - when it came to passing exams I was ahead of them.
O: Yes, but when it came to speaking French I did not speak it fluently, unlike those who were behind me…
S: Yes, I know, I also…?...
O: … they spoke it, I didn't.
S: I worked at it for a long time, but [laughs].
O: When it came to passing exams I was up there (with the best), even in French as long as it was written. This one spoke (it well) but wrote it badly, I did not speak but I wrote it well.
O: I got lots of point in French.
O: Without know (how to speak) French well.
O: The one who spoke French well would flunk, I would pass.
|30.||S: kumbe unabakia na Swahili:
na: na Kiluba/
O: na Kiluba/
S: na humu mu nyumba: hapa mu nyumba yak
O: una: na mama: unasumbulia na lugha gani/
O: paka Kiluba/
S: paka Kiluba/ na batoto?
O: watoto Kiswahili/
S: Kiswahili/ habasikie tena Kiluba?
O: mama yabo anasemaka: mama yabo naye anasemaka paka mu Kiluba/ beko nasikia: nabo kusema ...
O: hapana/ nitamuambia mu Kiluba atasikia alafu kusema ...
S: hautaweza kusikia malugha ingine? sawa Tshiluba/
S: ah: mais ni kusema ...
O: kusema/ sema ...
S: paka juu ya: juu ya: kucheka/[laughs]/
O: ndiyo/ ile itafikia tu/ na kusema kiloko kiloko/
|30.||S: So get along with Swahili and
O: An Kiluba.
S: Here in the house, your own house, what is the language you speak?
O: Only Kiluba.
S: Only Kiluba. With the children?
O: With the children is Kiswahili.
S: Kiswahili. Don't the understand Kiluba?
O: There mother speaks it and she speaks (to them) only in Kiluba. They understand. As to speaking…94
O: No. I tell (a child something) in Kiluba he will understand. But speak….
S: Couldn't you understand other languages? Like Tshiluba?
O: Yes (i.e. no) we are not going to understand it.
S: I see, but that is to say ….26
O: Speaking (Tshiluba), let's say…
S: A little.
O: A little.
S: Just as a joke.
O: Yes, That happens. And speaking it a little bit.
|31.||S: na: hata mu kazi unaona namna
O: njo kintu ya nguvu ya: ya kusikilizana na: kwanza na bantu bengine beko na kabila ingine/
S: kiisha wazungu/ mm?
S: bazungu ngapi bana: banasemaka Swahili bien?
O: muzungu anayua kusema Kiswahili muzuri mule? eko/
S: eko/ mai
O: François Cahier/
O: ha/ na Joseph Wijnen/
S: Cahier anasemaka muzuri?
O: muzuri sana/ muzuri sana/ Joseph Wijnen ...
S: hata hii: Grec: eh…
O: anasema muzuri/
S: mais bote: bo bali: balizaliwa hapa: non?
O: banazaliwa hapa? ya kuzaliwa hapa? paka Cahier: François Cahier: njo siyue muzuri: sawa kama alikuwaka mutot
O: sawa alizalawaka paka hapa/
S: oui oui/
S: oui oui/ mai
S: sawa bengine: bana: unaona bengine banasemaka sawa mi?
O: sauti yak
O: uko nasema muzuri kupita: bale bengine/
S: aah: non non non/
S: eeeh: minabakia na accent/ [laughs]
O: ah: là [laughs]
S: minabakia na accent/
S: sawa banani: hii rafiki: rafiki yangu: Dassas/
O: Dassas iko nasema muzuri/
S: anajikaza eh/ ana: anapima/ anapima/
O: zaidi tu: tuko naona sawa: mara mingi baingenieurs beko nakuya: mara mingi anayua Kiswahili bupesi: kuliko ba ...
O: ... bazungu ya kazi/ bo baingenieurs beko nayua bupesi: siyue kama nini?
O: beko nasumbulia Kiswahili mutasikia: kama iko nakuambia uko nasikia/
S: na hii: bale babijana ya sasa/ sawa: sawa Verbois ...
S: Dexters ao?
O: ah ...?...
S: habasemake? sasa bana: batasikilizana na ba: na bantu namna gani?
O: iko nguvu/ sawa Vercouters/
S: oui/ yee anasema ...
O: muzuri sana/
S: maneno ni ya zamani/
O: ya zamani/ [laughs]
S: ahm ...
O: na Picquet: iko nasema muzuri/
S: Picquet anasemaka?
O: anasema muzuri sana/ atasema na muntu: anasikia kabisa kabisa/ pasipo kintu moya kukupita hapana/
O: iko nasema muzuri sana/
|31.||S: And how do you see it in the
workplace? At first it must be difficult to understand each other with people
from different ethnic groups.
S: The there are the Europeans. Right?
S: How many Europeans speak Swahili well?
O: A European who speaks Swahili well there (in the workplace)? There are some (lit. there is).
S: There are some, but who?
O: François Cahier.
O: Yes, and Joseph Wijnen.
S: Cahier speaks it well?
O: Very well. Very well, (as does) Joseph Wijnen…
S: And then this Greek, eh [searching for the name]…
O: He speaks it well.
S: But all of them were born here, or not?
O: Were they born here? Were they born here? Except Cahier, François Cahier, I don't know exactly whether (he came) when he was a child or whether he was born here.
S: Yes, but do you see others who speak about as well as I do?
O: When you speak (lit. your voice) it is better than those other.
S: Ah, now way.
O: And how.
S: Come on, I still have an accent [laughs].
O: Well, that [laughs]…
S: I still have an accent.
S: What about this friend of mine, Dassas?
O: Dassas speaks it well.
S: He makes an effort and tries. He tries.
O: Above all, as we see it, it is often the engineers who pick up Swahili faster than the…
S: The bosses…
O: The Europeans at work.27 The engineers can speak (Swahili) in no time, I don't what (the reason) is.
S: They make an effort.
O: When they speak Swahili with you are going to understand (them). When such a person tells you (something) you listen.
S: And nowadays, the young (engineers), like Verbois….
S: Or Dexters?
S: They don't speak (Swahili), do they? How are they going to converse with the people?
O: It's difficult. [returning to list of competent speakers] Like Vercouters.
S: Yes, he speaks (Swahili)…
O: Very well.
S: Because he is an old-timer.
O: An old-timer. [laughs]
S: So then…
O: Also Picquet, he speaks it well.
S: Picquet spoke28 (Swahili)?
O: He spoke it very well.
S: When he spoke to a person he would understand it very well. There would be nothing you didn't catch.
O: He spoke it very well.
|32.||S: mm/ na: sawa ulisema: ulibakia
wee mwaka: makumi mbili/ bon/ uli: uliona: sawa Swahili iliendelea: ili:
ili: quoi: sawa Swahili iligeuka?
O: sawa hii Swahili minatokaka nay
O: njo inabakia: minakamata ingine/ juu hii nilikuwaka naye: ilikuwa ya ku masomo/
O: ya Swahili bora/
S: uli: uliacha/
O: minaacha/ minafwata na sasa ...
S: utaweza kusema tena?
S: nitasema kipande: hauta: hautaenda ...?... hapana/
S: oui mai
S: alafu kama unasikia mu: hata mu nani: mu radio?
O: mu radio? oui/ niko nasikia/ mu radio nitasikia/ niko nasikia/
S: kumbe ulisema: ulikamata hii Swahili ingine/ ingine namna gani? ni ingine na ...?
O: ah: inaachana na hii: tuko nasema hii/
S: na inaachana namna gani?
O: ku bintu mingi/
O: bintu mingi/
S: oui mai
S: ni kusema ni: ni kintu ya: ya upesi: ya ...
O: hii tuko nay
O: iko ya upesi: lakini: si minasema ya upesi: ya sawa kama minatafuta kusema Swahili muzuri: sitasema asema: ya wepesi/
O: ah: sasa minakuya kukata: bupesi/
|32.||S: Mm. As you said, you have been
here for a long time, twenty years. Did you notice that Swahili developed
- how shall I put it? - that it changed?
O: The kind of Swahili I started out with was left behind, I picked up another kind. Because the one I knew was the (the Swahili that was spoken) at school.
O: It was a the refined sort of Swahili.
S: Which you gave up.
O: I gave it up. I adapted to the situation…
S: Could you still speak (the refined sort)?
O: Not really.
O: I would speak a bit but you wouldn't keep it up.
S: Yes, but when you hear it, let's say, on the radio?
O: On the radio? Yes. I understand it. On the radio I'll understand it. I understand it/
S: So, you said that you picked up this other kind of Swahili. In what way did differ? Different from what?
O: Well, it just differed from the one we used to speak.
S: How did it differ?
O: In many things.
S: Yes, but (is the difference) that it is easy to….
O: This (Swahili) we speak is easy. But, speaking of easy, (I should say) when I want to speak good Swahili it doesn't come easy.
O: Ah, (when I try it) I am no longer fluent.
|33.||S: mm/ kumbe mara ingine unabakia
hapa mu: non: minasema namna gani? eh: bale bengine: mwenye kubakia hapa
mu région/ mm?
S: bo banasema: banasemaka Swahili yabo ya spécial: ya: ha?
S: wee unasikia: utaweza kusikia bote?
S: na mi: minasikia nguvu: nitakuelezea/ minasikia nguvu: kwanza ya: ya kusikia wabijana: eh?
S: sawa ya: wabijana ya batoto ya seize: quatorze ans/
O: ah: iko nguvu/
S: hata na wee?
S: na wee utasikia ...
O: lakini mitasikia juu: nilipitakako mbele juu mi niliwaka/
S: c'est ca/ na ingine: ni: ni hii Swahili ya: ya wana: ya wanamuke/
S: ah: kama bo banasemaka/
|33.||S: Mm. So, perhaps you stay here
-- no, how shall I say it? Right, those other people who live here in the
S: They speak their special kind of Swahili, right?
S: When you hear it (spoken) can you understand all of them?
O: All of them
S: All of them.
O: All of them.
S: A far as I am concerned, I find it difficult. Let me explain. First of all, I find it difficult to understand the young people. Eh?
S: By young people I mean children who are sixteen or fourteen.
O: Ah, that is difficult.
S: Even for you?
S: And you, will you understand….
O: I am going to understand it nevertheless because I got around before I settled down.
S: That's it. And another kind it the Swahili of the women. Ah, when they speak…
O: It's hard.
S: Too much (for me).
|34.|| kumbe: na: mu mawazo yako unaona
namna gani: uta: mu: mu avenir: eh: wakati itakayokuja?
S: ah: mara ingine batasemaka Français mu: mu usine?
S: bataacha Swahili?
S: unaona vile?
O: mi niko nawaza vile/ ndiyo/
S: hata sasa: banaanza kuacha Swahili?
O: beko naenda kuacha/ minaona/
S: nani: bantu ao bazungu?
S: bazungu banaacha Swahili/
O: beko naenda kuacha ndiyo/
S: mais bantu: bataacha tena?
O: na wantu wataacha kama: miaka inapita/
O: bataweza kuacha/ minaona wazungu wee: wanaenda kuacha/
|34.||So, when you think about it how
do see (what is going to happen) in the future, in times to come.
S: May they will speak French at the factory?
O: I think so.
S: All of them.
O: All of them.
S: They will abandon Swahili?
O: They will.
S: That's how you see it?
O: Yes, that's what I think.
S: And right now, are they beginning to drop Swahili?
O: I see that they are dropping Swahili.
S: Who, the people or the Europeans?
O: The Europeans.
S: The Europeans are dropping Swahili.
O: They are in the process of doing this, yes.
S: But the people, are they also going to do this?
O: I don't know.
O: Even the people are going to abandon (Swahili) as the years go by.
O: It is possible that they'll do it. I see that the Europeans are abandoning (Swahili).
|35.||S: na: kintu ingine nilitaka ku:
kuuliza …?... / sasa ni mawazo yak
O: zaidi juu ya: ya kazi/ tu: tunaona hii kazi: ni namna yote ya kazi tuna: sawa vile nilitembea hii fasi yote: kumbe na wee… bon: mais alafu: zaidi: shee wantu hapa mu dunia: tuta: tutafanya kazi juu ya nini?
O: juu ya ...
S: ni: maana yake ya kazi ni nini?
O: maana yake ya kazi?
O: kwangu mi niko nayua: minajua: ni: juu ya maisha/ ya ku: kula: kujifurahisha: nitaendekea ku furaha: juu nikale muzuri/
O: tena niendelesha mbele: na famille yangu…
O: kama minatumika nguvu: napata muzuri: njo kusema na famille yangu: batoto yangu: batabakia nabo haina kufa: batoto yangu batabakia muzuri/
O: njo kintu: mi niko nafansia kazi/
O: njo maana yake ya ...
O: ah ndiyo/
S: ya kazi/
O: ndiyo/ kula: kusikia muzuri/
|35.||S: There is something else I wanted
to ask. Now it's about your thoughts, especially about work. We see all
sorts of work we have (here in the factory). (You noticed) how I went around
(with workers) everywhere and then also with you… Fine, but what I really
want to ask i
S: We human beings here on earth, what will we work for?
O: For …
S: What is the meaning of work?
O: The meaning of work?
O: As far as I am concerned I know it is about living, about eating, having a good time. I am going on to (find) joy so that I can live well.
O: Then, the I get ahead with my family…
O: If I work hard I am going to earn good money and that means that my family, my children will stay alive, my children will live well.
S: I see.
O: This what I work for.
S: That's it. That is the meaning of…
O: Ah, yes.
S: …of work.
O: Yes. Eat, feel well.
|36.||S: oui/ mais kazi: inaachana na
namna yake/ mara ingine ni kazi: na hii kazi mwee munafanyaka/
S: unaona ni: ni kazi muzuri ao ni kazi mubaya? unaona kama mara ingine: sawa tuseme: uliweza kuwa ka: karani/ clerc/
O: miye? ah: juu: ni sawa mawazo yangu:
O: minapenda: juu kama minaona sina namna ya kuachia: nitabakia mukalani: maneno shiyue: kuandika/
O: eh/ ile: shitaangaria/
S: mm/ kumbe uta: unaangaria paka ...
O: paka kazi yangu: ya nguvu/ mikono yangu ya nguvu/
S: bantu banatumika na mikono ...?... njo heshima? a
O: ao ...
O: bengine banaona iko bule/
S: bengine banaona iko bule?
O: eeh/ maneno kalani iko natumika: haba beko bana kalani: atakuwa anaanza kutubenga: asema uko maneouvre wa bulebule/
S: oui mai
S: mu mawaz
O: mu mawazo yangu?
O: kama niko na: mu ile yangu ya mikon
O: niko napatam
O: uta…?... ni iko inanifurahisha mu nyumba yangu: mi sitawaza ile/
|36.||S: Yes. But there are different
kinds of work. Sometimes it is work - (let's tale) the work you are doing.
S: Do you see it as good or bad work. Let's put it like thi
S: Does it not come to your mind that you could be an office worker.
S: Would you like that?
O: Me? It' been on my mind.
O: I like (the idea but) I see no way I can leave (the work I do now) and be a clerk because I cannot write (well).
O: So I am not going to consider this.
S: Mm. So what you consider is only…
O: … only my heavy work, my strong arms.
S: People (who) work with their hands - is this respectable? Or…
O: There are those who regard (such work) as worthless.
S: There are those who regard it as worthless?
O: Yes. Because a clerk who just works with (other) office workers will treat of with contempt: You are just a worthless laborer.
S: Yes, but in you own thinking?
O: In my own thoughts?
O: If I have my manual work I make my living. Are you going to…?... This is what gives me joy in my home, I am not going to think about those (other possibilities).
|37.||S: c'est ça/ tuseme: kama wee
ulikuwa: ah: ni mufano tu: ah?
S: wee ulikuwa: aah: na: ya kupata utajiri: ya million na million Zaire/ mm?
S: kwa mufano/ bon/ unapashwa tena kutumika?
S: si njo ulipata: million Zaire?
O: hapana/ nitatumika/ mu mawazo yangu: nitatumika juu: niliisha kuona/
O: juu minaisha kuona namna gani ba: mbele wanafanya/
O: na minaona: bale bengine banapata sawa namna ya Picquet:
O: she vile: tunawazia asema iko na mali mingi/
O: eh/ pale nitakubaona: asubui sept heures yee anakwenda mu kazi/
S: aah/ oui mai
S: bon/ muaona sawa: mai
S: sababu gani? sababu gani muntu: muntu anatumikaka: hata kama iko na ma: na mali/
O: na mali? eh/
S: sababu gani atatumika?
O: ah: anatumika yee/
S: muntu yote anapashwa kutumika?
O: atapashwa kutumika/ wee: allez/ [to his child who is playing with the recorder]
S: ah: ah: ongoye/ di
S: sh: mm: na atakombo…?... naye: na nduku yake/ [pause] ah bon: kumbe ...
O: muntu anakuwa na mali mingi: anaanza kutu: iko anatumika/ minawaza inakuwa sawa uzoezo/
S: oui/ oui/ na mu: uko na mawazo gani ya: ya kuendelea mu kazi? utabakia paka: sasa wee ulipata: bukapita:
S: mm/ njo ...
O: sasa: na sasa: niko na: niko natafuta wa: wa kuendelea: sina namna/
O: lakini natafuta ni kusema nipate: minayua asema minafika ku mwisho juu: sikufunda: sijue nini/
O: kumbe nifanye paka hivi mu mwisho yangu: ni kufa: kunaisha/
|37.||S: That's it. But if you were,
ah, it's just an example, right?
S: I you were to become rich, (have) millions of Zaire, what then?
S: (Just) as an example. Right, would you still have to work?
O: In that case I am (still) going to work.
S: But didn't make a million Zaire?
O: No, I am going to work. In my thoughts I am (still) going to work because I have seen this.
S: Have you?
O: Because I have seen how those who are higher up do it.
O: And I have seen those who made (a lot of money) like Picquet.
O: They way we think he is very rich.
O: Right. When I watch them (I see that) in the morning, as seven o'clock, he goes to work.
S: Ah, yes but. Alright, that's what you see, but why? Why will a person work even though he is rich?
O: (If he is) rich? Well.
S: Why is he going to work?
O: Well, he works.
S: Everyone must work?
O: He must work. You, go away. [to his child who is playing with the recorder]
S: Ah, wait. Say, sh [shushing the child]. Mm, and now he is going to fight …?... with his brother. [pause] Alright then. So…
O: A person who is very rich will (still) work. I think it's like a habit.
S: Yes, yes. And do you have an idea how to get ahead at work? Are you going to stay (where you are)? Now, you became a foreman.
S: Mm. Is this….
O: Right now I may be trying to get ahead (but) I don't see how.
O: Even though I may be trying, say, to earn (more), I know I have reached the end because I don't have an education. I don't know what (else I could do).
O: Therefore I should do just what I am doing until my end and then I die, that's it.
|38.||S: mwisho ya kazi yak
O: uta: wee una: uko na waz
O: mawazo ya kurudia ku: ku mugini?
O: ah: mawazo yangu? juu minaisha kuzobelea kutumika/
S: oui mai
S: hii wakati uni: uta: utapata pension?
O: nitarudia ku mugini/
S: utarudia ku mugini?
O: nitarudia ku mugini/
S: hata sasa: ulienda: ulienda mu congé: ulienda?
O: eeh/ niliendaka mwaka mbili: sasa: niko napima paka mu congé yangu minalala: fasi: mayi mingi sana/ njia: hapana/ ni kusema hii mwaka niko natafuta kuomba: balinichanger/
S: ah oui oui: juu ya nguvu: nguvu ya: ya kufika kule/
O: ndiyo/ balinichanger nipateko congé mu kipwa/
S: oui oui/ mu: mu kati ya: ya wasipo ...
O: wasipo mvula/
S: oui/ eyo/ utakuwa na: bale banduku wak: wak
O: banaikala ku mugini: wee utafika: utayenga?
O: ndiyo/ ao kama ...
O: ndiyo/ nitalima/
|38.||S: When you stop working, do you
think about going back to the village?
O: Ah, in my thoughts? (Not really) because I am so used to working.
S: Yes, but when the time comes to got you pension?
O: (Then) I go back to the village.
S: You go back to the village?
O: I go back to the village.
S: And no, if you would take your vacation would you go (there)?
O: Yes. I used to go (? every) two years. Now this year, because in the place where I stay during my leave there is a lot of water and no road (to get there), I will tried and asked that my leave be changed.
S: Ah, yes. Because it is hard to get there.
O: Right, they changed it so I can get my leave during the dry season.
S: Yes, during the time without….
O: Without rain.
S: Yes, I see. Probably you relatives who live in the village. When you get there will you build (a house)?
O: Yes. Or if…
S: (And) are you going to farm?
O: Yes, I am going to farm.
S: I see.
|39.||hauna na: na mawazo ya kubakia
mu: mu ville?
O: ah: mali hapana/ nitabakia kufanya: si nitaleta mara ingine na batot
O: banaanza kufanya bintu ya kuiba? kama tuko tunabakia mu ville: pension: namna ya kuwalisha ...
S: uko na watoto ngapi?
O: niko na saba/
S: saba/ bengine baliisha ...
O: ku kuoa hapa moya:
O: sasa niko na sita/
S: ah mm/ [pause] kumbe utarudia mu mugini?
O: nitarudia paka mugini/
S: juu ya nini?
O: maneno mali hapana/
S: juu ya mali?
S: kwa kubakia mu ville inafaa: kuwa na mali/
O: kuwa mali/ ndiyo/
S: mais kama ulikuwa na mali: ulibakia hapa?
O: ndiyo/ nitaweza kubakia hapa/ [pause]
S: mu mugi: mu mugini ni muzuri ao ni mutes
O: mateso? ao?
O: hapana: iko muzuri juu: kama: sina na mali: unayua paka kulima: unakula yako/
O: eh: pasipo kuangaria huku na huku asema fulani anafanya/
|39.|| Don't you (ever) think of staying
O: Ah well, there are no funds (to live on). If I do that and stay am I not perhaps getting my children into a situation where they have to do things like stealing? If we stay in town, feed them from my pension…
S: How many children do you have?
O: I have seven.
S: Seven. Some of the are already…
O:One is married here.
S: I see.
O: So now I have six (with me).
S: Ah, mm. [pause] So you will go back to the village?
O: I'll just go back to the village.
O: Because there is no capital.
S: Because (there is no) capital?
S: To stay in town one must have be wealthy.
O: Wealthy, yes
S: But if you had the resources would you stay here.
O: Yes, (in that case) I could stay here. [pause]
S: Is life in the village good or is there suffering? Or (how is it)?
O: No, it is good because, although I am not rich you can farm and eat what you produce.
O: Yes, without looking left and right (asking yourself what) this or that person does.
|40.||S: oui oui/ mu: mm: sawa unaona
mu: mu kazi: hii kintu kinakuteswa: zaidi zaidi: njo nini?
O: kile inaniteswa?
S: kila: kila kazi iko na: na nguvu yake:
S: na mateso yake/
S: hata ya: kazi yangu/ eh? kwa mufano yangu kazi yangu: sasa ni muzuri/ minasikia muzuri/ minaweza kusumbulia na wantu/ mais kiisha: nitapashwa kwenda: kufunga: mulang
O: kubakia weee: na upeke yangu: kuandika kuandika kuandika/ eh/ masaa mingi: masaa: njo mateso yangu/ [laughs] mm?
S: mais kila kazi iko na mateso/ sasa: wee unaona sawa: ku kazi yako?
S: oui: mu kazi yako hii/
O: mu kazi yangu sawa niko naona? maneno minayua tu asema yote iko kazi muzuri/
O: na kulamuka: niko nalamuka na nguvu juu kama mina: nachelewa: minalofa: kintu inaanza ku: iko nanipita nguvu/ sawa mu kazi yangu ile busiku: juu: busiku minalala busiku mingi sana/
S: c'est ça/ hii: hii kazi ya: ya poste/
O: ya busiku: ya dix-sept heures trente/
O: njo nguvu?
O: njo minaona inakuwa nguvu/ inakuwa nguvu/ niko natumika tu: paka vile/
O: nitapata wapi fasi?
O: njo bintu niko naona nguvu kupita/
S: ya: ya: juu ya baridi…
O: eh/ tuna siku inapita/
|40.||S: Yes, mm. As you see it, what
is at work that makes you suffer most?
O: What makes me suffer?
S: Every kind of work has its problems
S: Its ways of making you suffer.
S: Even my work, right? For instance right now my work is good, I feel good. I can talk to people. But then I must go, close the door, and lead my solitary life of writing, writing, writing. Many, many hours. That's what makes me suffer. [laughs] Right?
S: But every work had its hardships. How do you see this with the work you do?
O: The work?
S: Yes, this work you do.
O: How I see it with my work? I know that every kind of work is good.
O: When I wake up I wake up with strength because if I am late and just hang about this is something that can get too much for me. With my work it's the night shift, I work the night shift a lot.
S: That's it, this work in shifts.
O: The late shift (that starts at) 5.30 pm.
S: That is hard?
O: That is really hard, as I see it. I do the work, that's it.
O: Where am I going to find another place (to work)?
O: Those are the things that get to be too hard, as I see it.
S: Because of the cold…
O: (Fighting) sleepiness..
O: There are days when this gets too much.
|41.||S: oui mai
S: mara ingine: hauna na: problème ya: ya masikilizano na wengine? mara ingine: ma: she: she bote twiko bantu/ mara ingine tunabishana mai
S: sawa vile unaona mu kazi yak
O: muko na masikilizano?
O: masikilizano na watu: tuko nasikilizana/
O: tuko tunasikilizana/
O: juu: minayua masikilizan
O: minatumika na wazungu wa zamani: nayua mufano/ natumika na wakapita ya zamani ...
O: niko na mu: [starts again] sawa kapita banamupata: eh: kapita wa sasa: eh: inaachana na kapita ule alikuwa zamani/ na wazungu wale tuko na ...
S: beko banaanchana namna gani?
O: mu mufano juu: bale balikuwa nafanya matata na muzungu wa zamani/ hawa: anatafuta kufanya matata/ atawaza mbele: anacontroller asema huyu muntu alikosaka siku ingine? huyu muntu alikosaka siku ingine? kiisha: njo anaanza kufanya matata/
O: ba sasa: hapana/
O: paka leole
O: muntu kufanya kosa: leo na u: kosa nayee: kumufansia paka pale/
S: anafanya pr
O: proposition …
S: paka pale/
O: zamani haikuwaka/
S: maneno ya nini? manen
O: balipotea: balipotea nini?
O: siyue/ siyue/ pale na shee: muntu mingi anayua asema: mambo ya zamani: ilikuwa muzuri/
O: ya sasa: haina muzuri/
O: ya pale/
|41.||S: Yes, but now about something
else: Don't you have problems getting along with others. We all are human
beings and sometimes we fight each other but…
S: As you see it at your work place, do you get along with each other?
O: Getting along with people - we understand each other.
O: Because I know about mutual understanding, I worked with the Europeans in the old times, I know what it was like (lit. I know the example). I worked with the old foremen…
O: I am in...[starts again] Say someone is made foreman nowadays. This will not be like the foreman used to be in the old days. And the Europeans we have…
S: How are they different?
O: For example, take those who made trouble for a European in the old days, a person looking for trouble. (The European foreman) would think about it first and find out: Has this person done something wrong on another day? Has he done this before? Only the would begin to give him a hard time.
O: That's no the way it is with (the foremen) nowadays.
O: I a person mess up today, (the foreman) is going to get after him right there, on the same day.
S: He writes a proposition…30
S: Right there.
O: In the old days it did not use to be like that.
S: Why? What got lost?
O: I don't know. I don't know. That's when many a person realizes that things were good in the old days.
O: The way it is now, that's no good.
O: (Compared to) how it was then.
|42.||S: hata: hata mu: mu: mu changachanga/
S: inaachana na sasa?
O: na: mbali sana/ mbali kabisa juu inye: mbali kabisa kabisa/
S: minaona beko sasa: sawa oui: mi siseme kintu/
S: mais mi minaona mu ma: mu mecho yangu/ beko na: beko makali sana/
O: inaachana kabisa kabisa/
O: njo kusema: sawa mambo ya sasa/ changachanga ya sasa/ kama: na bantu ya sasa/ kama kazi ilikuwa mingi kabisa: habawezi kupata muntu kwa kuingia mu kazi/ juu habafwate habayue ile règlement ilikuwa ya zamani/
|42.||S: And (the way things are done)
at the office of the changachanga.
S: Is this different no?
O: Very much so, it is really different.
S: I see that, nowadays, it's like, well, I should not say anything.
S: But I see it with my own eyes, they are very severe.
O: It really is different.
O: The way matters are handled nowadays by the changachanga as well as by the people. Whenever there is great pressure at work they now longer know how to get a person involved at work, because they don't know how to follow the old (company) regulations.
|43.||S: mm/ hii barafiki uko naye:
sawa wee: ulitembea sasa na rafiki/
O: njo rafiki juu ya kazi: ao rafiki maneno ni: ni banduku ya: ya mugini ao ...
O: hapana: kusikilizana/
O: ndiyo/ kuko wa bengine banduku ya mugini yetu moya: shee hapana sikilizana: mi hapana kutembea kwake/ kusikilizana/
O: [a woman's voice in the background] …?...baba Nseya/ baba Nseya moyi/
S: moyi/ [laughs] mais/ [sound of door being closed] mai
S: unaona sawa …
S: sasa: mara ingine: O1: baNgoie: baNgoie/
O: hapana: analeta ...
|43.||S: Mm. What about the friends
you have - you were taking a walk with a friend just now.
S: Is this a friend (you made) at work or is it a friend because he is a relative from the village, or?
O: No, (friendship means) to understand each other.
S: Understand each other?
O: Yes. There may be kinsmen from the same village with whom we don't get along. I would not go (and visit) at his house. (Friendship is) to understand each other. O1: [a woman's voice in the background] … baba Nseya/ baba Nseya moyi31/
S: Moyi. [laughs] But [sound of door being closed] but in your view…
O1: Is he not in?
S: Now then, once more….
O: Ngoie, Ngoie.32
S: Is she calling you?
O: No, she is bringing…
|44.||[conversation outside between
the visitor and another woman]
S: uta: uta: wee unaona hii: hii maendele
O: juu ya: tuseme masikilizano na: na bazungu/ itakuwa namna gani?
O: masikilizano na wazungu?
S: wee ulisema: oui ma: zamani ilikuwa muzuri/
S: oui mai
S: eh ... [short interruption, visitor enters] si njo mara ya kwanza muzungu alifika mu nyumba yenu?
O1: baba Nseya/
O1: yambo yenu/
S: yambo mama/
O1: baNsey (?) sapula…
O: ah mi a...?... / O1: uko unawafundisha? [laughs]
S: [laughs] O1: [continues with comments in Luba] …eh?
S: [laughs] asema pasteur?
S: sababu gani?
O: asema: juu ya kusema [laughs] ...?...
S: eh? asema pasteur?
S: mais juu: juu ya nini?
O: ni kusema juu: minasemaka mingi/
|44.||[conversation outside between
the visitor and another woman]
S: The way you see it will there be some progress in understanding each other with Europeans? How would this happen?
O: Mutual understanding with Europeans?
S: You said that it was good in the old days.
S: Yes but, eh…[short interruption, visitor enters] is this not the first time a European comes to your house? O1: baba Nseya.
O: What is it?
O1: Greetings to you.
S: Greetings, mama. O1: Baba Nseya, talk33 …
O: Ah, I …?...
O1: Are you teaching them? [laughs]
O1: [continues with comments in Luba] …eh?
S: [laughs] Did she say (something about a) preacher?
O: Because of (all the) talking [laughs] ...?...
S: Did she? Did she say preacher?
S: But why?
O: Because I have been talking a lot.
|45.||S: ah oui/ ah [laughs] mais non:
turudie ku: ku hii/
S: si njo mara ya kwanza muzungu anafika?
O: mu nyumba yangu?
S: pasipo ya: mara ingine monpère alifika sijue/ uk
O: uko kristiani?
O: niko kristiani alafu sipitake ku misa/
S: unaona/ unaona sawa ni buzungu ao?
O: hapana/ minaona ni mubaya? juu tena kintu ingine ya misa mi nilikuwa: bibi yangu iko kristiani: mi kristiani/
S: ya/ si unaona? sasa tutaendelea namna gani?
O: paka mbele/
S: hata zamani/ wee ulisema zamani ilikuwa muzuri muzuri/ mai
S: bazungu: balikuwa na ngambo yab
O: mwee mulikuwa ngambo wenu/ unaona kama ilikuwa muzuri sawa?
O: hapana/ si zamani kabisa/ ilikuwa muzuri alafu: ilikuwa: utaweza kutengeneza mambo yako/ sawa namna: ile tunasema ya misa: kwa mufano/ sawa ya misa ya monpère: mi nilisema: mi sipitake ku misa/ juu si: sawa zamani/
O: kama sawa watoto yangu: niko nazaa: bataweza wanazala: mara moya: pasipo ma: mambo mingi ya kusemasema: utafika kwa monpère: mara moya: anamubatiza/
O: asema iko katoliki/
O: sasa: hapana/
S: non? anakatala/
O: ni paka ...?... nasemasema:
O: bya murefu: leta: fanya hivi: fanya hivi: fanya hivi [claps his hands]: sasa: kiisha na wee nay
O: kesho anakuambia: kesho anakuambia: inaanza kuletako roho baridi: unasahabu na mamb
O: bale bazungu ya zamani: banakuwa nachacha na mambo bupesi bupesi/
|45.||S: Ah yes, well [laughs] but no,
let's go back to this.
S: Is it not the first time a European comes (to your house)?
O: My house?
S: Someone who is not - perhaps a priest has been here, I don't know. Are you a Christian?
O: I am a Christian but I don't go to mass.
S: You see. Do you look at (Christianity) as something European? Or?
O: No. Do I see it as something bad? Because there is another thing about mass, I was34 -- my wife is a Christian and so am I.
S: Yes, don't you see? How are we going to go on?
O: Just (going) ahead.
S: Take the past, you said that in the old days (things) were really find. But the Europeans kept to their side and you to your side. As you see it, was that a good situation?
O: No, it wasn't in the remote past. It was alright but - what it was, you could settle your affairs. For instance, about this business about mass and the priest we mentioned. I said that I am not going to mass because - take how it used to be.
O: Take my own children. When they were born you would go to the priest and, without a lot of discussion and useless talk he would baptize a child right away.
O: It meant he was a Catholic.
O: That's not how it is nowadays.
S: No? He refuses (to baptize the child right away).
O: Only after a lot of talking.
O: (Discussing) things at length: Bring this, do this, do that [claps his hands]. So eventually he would tell you (to come back) tomorrow, tomorrow and that would cool you down in your soul and you forget what it was all about (lit. about the rest).
S: I see.
O: Because in the old days the Europeans used to settle matters really fast.
|46.||S: mm/ na hata mi nili: enfin:
nili: nilipashwa kufunda hii: hii mamb
O: bon/ niliikala wee kule ku kompund/ hii: hii wakati ingine: nilifwata Jamaa/ si vile?
O: ni vile/
S: juu ya recherches yangu/
S: recherches ya Jamaa/ na: minajua/ mi nilikuwa muzungu ya mwanzo ya kabisa ya kufika mu nyumba: ya wantu/ na wantu wanasikia: kwanza banasema eeeh: anatafuta nini? ni sawa policier: anafanya contrôle ya nyumba: ah/ mai
S: hii si vizuri/ tuta: tutasikilizana namna gani? mm? sawa w: hata zamani/ mu: mu kazi: ndiyo/ mu kazi mulionana: siku yote mulionana: mulionana na bazungu: hata kucheka nabo/
S: na ...?... tu/ mai
S: kiisha unarudia kwak
O: njo miwsho/
|46.||S: Mm. Even I had to learn about
this because, alright, I lived for a long time there in the camp at the
time when I followed the Jamaa, right?
S: For the research I did.
S: Research on the Jamaa. And I know (how it was). I was the very first European to come to the homes of people. And the people felt (ill a ease), telling themselve
S: Eh, what is he looking for, is he like a policeman, is he checking on the house, what is this? That's no good. How are we going to come to mutual understanding? Mm? And even in the old days - at work, yes. At work you and the Europeans would see each other every single day. You would even joke with them.
S: And …?... But then you went home and that was the end of it.
|47.||S: kintu unatafuta: zaidi: zaidi
sasa: ni paka: ni nini?
O: sasa: zaidi kabisa? tunatafuta paka mali ...?... [chuckles]
S: paka mali?
S: kuendelea na:.
O: ni kuendelea na mali/ njo tena kintu yo inatutumikisha/
O: juu ya kubakia muzuri: kula muzuri: kutembea muzuri na furaha/
S: c'est ça/ oui minaona/ bon/
O: nitafanya pasipo kuchoka kazi: kuchoka hapana/ hatuwezi kuchokea kazi: ah/
S: mm/ oui: kazi inaachana na bantu ya inje: inje ya na société: beko banateswa mingi/
O: mingi sana/ banateswa/
S: bantu ya ...
O: beko nateswa/
S: ahah: banapata vingt Zaire: hata kama balikuwa na école professionnelle: wote wote: bale banajua kuandika: ku: kusema Françai
|47.||S: What is it that you are after
more than anything else?
O: Right now? More than anything else? Money.35
S: Just money?
S: To keep going…
O: It's about money to get on, that is what makes us work.
O: So that we can live well, eat well, get around well, and enjoy it.
S: That's it. Yes, I see. Fine.
O: So I am going to do my work and not get tired of it. We just cannot (afford to) get tired of work.
S: Mm. Yes. The work (situation you have) is different from that of people outside the company, they suffer a lot.
O: Very much so. They suffer.
S: All they are paid is twenty Zaire even though all those people may have gone to trade school and know how to write and speak French.
O: That's how it is.
|48.||S: bon/ uko na mawazo ingine?
ya kunielezea? ao kuni: kuniuliza? |
O: sasa ile: sawa ile una: ile uko nauliza: njo kusema: ile unatafuta kujua ni kuandika na wee: kwa kufanya bitabu ao?
S: ni kusema: non non/ ni kusema minabakia naye/ oui: mu mwisho ... [recording ends here]
|48.||S: Alright. Can you think of anything
else, something to explain to me or ask me?
O: Now, about those questions you ask and what you want to know, this is about writing and producing books, right?
S: Not really. That it is to say, I keep it for (later). Yes, in the end ….36
1 I have been using the
gloss "[laughs]" ever since I transcribed my first text (I sometimes
altered between [laughs], [laughter], and [chuckle(s)]). I never stopped to
discuss what has been obvious in my mind but may not be so for other readers:
[laughs] covers many different vocalizations or timbres of voice; it may be
anything between loud and barely audible; it can express anything between hilarity
and irony, even embarrassment or contempt; it may be extremely brief or sustained;
it may be one speaker's reaction or one that is shared, and so on -- the list
of possibilities is not complete (and probably cannot be). What do the sounds
that correspond to [laughs] have in common (apart from being what phoneticians
would probably call explosive)? They all are means of communication and they
may impart information. Beyond that there is an intriguing commonality of a
visual rather than aural nature that can be re-cognized in the sense of remembered:
[laughs] goes together with a change of expression, a different and distinctive
set of facial musculature.
2 In the original the preceding is somewhat confusing, probably because by mugini I meant his native village whereas in his response it possibly refers to an urban center.
3 I had heard sawa, just about, as saba, seven.
4 My guess at the meaning of a cryptic phrase in the original; the locative kule could also refer the Luena coal mine. The Luena mine produced bituminous coal for use in the smelters of the Union Minière.
5 The original literally says "muntu did not know," which may simply mean "one did not know" but could also: be marked by the opposition of muntu to: muzungu, African vs. European (see also note 19 below).
6 We are using the (anachronistic) name of the nationalized successor of the Union Minière.
7 Trabeka = Société d'entreprise de travaux de béton du Katanga, the Union Minière subsidiary cement and construction enterprise.
8 In the conversation I often used oui, oui, which I eventually decided to translate with a simple non-emphatic "yes" (much like "mm").
9 The mining complex at Ruwe included, apart from an open-pit mine, a smelter and processing plant.
10 I use "ore" as a cover-all term for the solids (bulongo) that go into, or produced during, the electrolytic production of zinc. In fact the process was roughly as follows. From a concentrator at Kipushi, near Lubumbashi, a so-called calcined concentrate was sent to Sogechim at Jadotville/Likasi where it was roasted to produce sulfuric acid before it arrived at Metalkat.
11 The foregoing is an extreme example of a common conversational device: seemingly meaningless repetition serves to maintain the exchange while I think of the next question.
12 Société Métalurgique du Katanga. For a slide show of the plant see http://www.inchi-yetu.be/index_uzk.html on the Inchi Yetu website.
13 I take "other" to mean European personnel directing construction, different from those who later oversaw production.
14 Assuming the transcription is correct, the French dictionary did not help with a translation. The same goes for bonpom in the following. All that is clear is that terms refer to work in the construction phase of the plant.
15 "Water," mayi, as opposed to bulongo, lit. soil, the untreated ore (the technical term is calcine).
16 In the Swahili text I made a mistake: I should have said balikuweka.
17 "Pachuca tank (pə'chükə 'taŋk),(chemical engineering) Air-agitated, solid-liquid mixing vessel in which the air is injected into the bottom of a center draft tube; air and solids rise through the tube, with solids exiting the top of the tube and falling through the bulk of the liquid." From: (n.d.). McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific and Technical Terms. Retrieved February 01, 2008, from Answers.com Web site: http://www.answers.com/topic/pachuca-tank
18 Notice the change from definite to indefinite article and back (the camp, a camp). Here a problem of translation (there are no articles in Swahili) brings out a difference in perspective between the ethnographer and his interlocutor. I have in mind life in a workers' settlement in general. Baba Ngoie thinks of the place where he has been living for many years. Hence it is not the difference between inside and outside the camp that seems important to him but the difference between now and then, not a social-structural but an individual-historical difference. I may actually have encouraged the latter when I asked him to tell my how he sees this matter with "his own eyes."
19 I did not understand mwikalio, a local form of ECS ukao, from -kaa, way of living, hence the repeated question (which Ngoie does not answer here).
20 Here and in many other places I translate bantu as people and the singular muntu as "a person." These are simplifications. Depending on context (the present one may or may not be such a case), bantu are opposed to wazungu: Africans vs. Europeans. Similarly muntu may have to be translated as African or black man. This may look much like the use of "Bantu" as a racial term in South Africa under apartheid, except that in local Swahili wazungu was a social-political, not a color term and muntu/bantu had retained its basic signification, "human being(s)."
21 At this point, I feel, that my translation needs a longer comment: To call a translation "free" is never very meaningful except as a hedge against anticipated objections. Although the technical facilities I have on my PC, which allow me to return at any time from transcript to recording (I am using Express Scribe), the only claim I can make is that my translation presents my understanding of the text. That understanding I cannot simply "read" from the text. What I offer is based on my general competence in Katanga Swahili, on a sense for the particular speech habits of my interlocutor, as well on "experience" - an ability acquired during field research in the past that is now made present (represented) by reconstructing meaning that remains implicit, is connoted rather than denoted, with the help of memories that are mobilized, above all, by the sound recording. I imagine, but cannot back this up with any expert knowledge, that the problems this kind of text poses are similar to those of translating poetry - where there is no translation except through recreation. Which, incidentally, puts yet another twist on debates about the role of "poetry" in ethnographic representation.
22 The term goes back to the beginnings of mining early in the last century. Literally it means something like "the one who always mixes" workers recruited from different ethnic groups and places.
23 The present tense of the question reflects the fact that I had gotten to know Willy Houyet and his wife when we were house-sitting for them in Lubumbashi. He was no longer with Metalkat but full of stories and information about his time as a camp manager there.
24 The Swahili verb here is -lala, to sleep but is clear that Ngoie means this in a wider sense. "With other people" is an allusion to one of the tasks of a camp manager: maintaining peace among different ethnic groups in a camp.
25 This remark was not really truthful. By that time I was rather fluent in French. It is explained by a later similar statement where I recall how hard it was to learn French. I just felt the need to deflect a potentially embarrassing admission of his.
26 Baba Ngoie's idiomatic response to my negative question was ndiyo, yes, which, for some reason, I failed to register as no; hence I continue to press him on the issue.
27 He means the European foramen and others without degrees in engineering. During colonial and early postcolonial times that distinction would often reflect the social and linguistic situation in Belgium. Most upper level technical and administrative personnel were French-speaking. Supervisors "at work," that is, on the production side, were mostly Flemings.
28 I put this in the past because Picquet was no longer at Metalkat.
29 The sound I make is not a rueful chuckle, nor an expression of amusement.
30 A proposition de , a proposal for a penalty, was written by a foreman and sent to the camp manager who then called in the worker to discuss the matter and decide on a penalty.
31 Moyi, or moyo, is the traditional greeting in Tshiluba. An interesting little detail because baba Ngoie is not a speaker of Tshiluba (see above). Relations between Luba-Kasai and Luba-Katanga were often relaxed in those days.
32 The visitor uses the plural form baNgoie, lit. the Ngoies, something that is common in Katanga Swahili.
33 The woman says sapula. I consulted A. Mutombo about this expression. Sabula or sapula is Sanga (the local language around Kolwezi), the equivalent of sema, speak!
34 Baba Ngoie did not finish what he was going to tell me. Probably he hinted at a conflict with the church (as my immediate reaction suggests).
35 This is a convenient translation of mali, which in actual usage can also have specific significations, such as bridewealth. Here it should be understood as prosperity or just "enough money to live on."
36 The recording stopped here because we had come to the end of the tape without my noticing it. The fragment of my answer brings up memories of similar situations. I was not trying to deny the purpose of my questioning (see the beginning of this conversation) just to assure my interlocutors that ethnographic research was a long process unlike the (company-sponsored) surveys they may have undergone or heard of.
Still, even leaving aside ultimate questions about political or economic context of social science research, I have no illusions about having gained the complete trust of the workers with whom I talked.
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