Recorded March 10, 1973 with Pungwe
Albert, a carpenter, at the Chenge workshop in Lubumbashi.
|1.|| S: mara ingine nitauliza: uliza
ulizo: ulizo: ao paka: ah: kwanza juu ya hii mwanzo yako/ kama ulifunda
hii métier yako: ni hii métier yako ya: ya mwanzo?
O: ndiyo ni yangu ya mwanzo/
S: unasemaka nini mu Swahili: métier?
O: métier? ni: (hesitates) ufundi/
S: ufundi eh/
S: donc hii: hii ilikuwa ufundi yako ya mwanzo?
O: ndiyo yangu ya kwanza kabisa/
|1.||S: Perhaps I'll ask a question.
Let's see. First about how you started out, whether you learned your trade
- has it been your line of work from the beginning?
O: Yes, it was my (trade) from the beginning.
S: In Swahili, what do you say for métier ?
O: Métier? It is [hesitates] ufundi.
S: Ufundi, yes.
S: So this was your trade from the beginning?
O: Yes, it was my very first trade.
S: I see.
|2.||S: uli: ulifunda: ulifunda mu
O: maana yake kiisha kumaliza: primaire:
S: oui: miaka tano ya primaire: nalikwenda ku: kujifunza/
S: kule Kalemie?
O: non: nalimaliza première Kalemie/
O: sasa nakwenda Baudouinville/ Moba/
O: nikafanya miaka miwili: ya artisanale/
S: ku école kule?
O: école artisanale ndiyo/
S: à Baudouinville?
S: ah bon/
O: sijui kama banasupprimer sasa: lakini: ilianza: mu: cinquante: quatre:
O: cinquante quatre: njo ilikuwa promotion ile ya kwanza/
S: ah bon/ cinquante quatre?
O: eeh: na nilimaliza mu cinquante six/
S: ya: ilikuwa ya bamonpères?
O: ya baPères Blancs ndiyo/
|2.||What year was it when you went
to school (lit. learned)?
O: The thing is, when I finished elementary school...
O: Yes, after five years of elementary school I went on to get myself trained.
S: Over there in Kalemie?
O: No, I finished the first (year) in Kalemie.
O: Then I went to Baudouinville, (now called) Moba.
O: I did two years of trade school.
S: At a school there?
O: Trade school, yes.
S: In Baudouinville?
S: I see.
O: I don't know whether it has been closed now. It opened in '54.
O: In '54, that was the first class.
S: I see, in '54?
O: Yes, and I finished in in '56.
S: Was (the school) run by missionaries?
O: By the White Fathers, yes.
|3.||O: et puis: mu wakati si tunaingia
mu deuxième année: mu mwaka ya mpili:
O: ya masomo: balinituma waFrères de Notre Dame: bale beko Kalemie/ na saa: nikatoka/ nilipashwa kwenda mu armée: kiisha...
S: mm/ ah wee uliingia mu na baFrères?
O: ndiyo/ sasa nikaingia mu armée/ kiisha armée: nilifanya police/
S: armée ya ...
O: ya Force Publique/
S: Force Publique
O: Force Publique du Congo Belge/
S: ulikuwa recruté/
O: nilikuwa recruté mule: nikafanya miaka miwili/
O: nilifanya: eh: centre d'instruction: nani: Kongolo:
O: CI Kongolo: kiisha: wakanituma mu bataillon hapa: deuxième bataillon: Elisabethville/
O: kiisha nilifanya tena police/
O: école de police/ mwaka moya: napata brevet: ts: kiisha niliona kama: inafaa nitumike métier yangu/
|3.||O: And then, when we entered the
second year, [in Swahili] the second year.2
O: (In the second year) of school they sent us to the Brothers of Notre Dame, the ones in Kalemie. When the time came to leave, I had to join the army. Then...
S: Mm. So you entered (the order of the) Brothers?
O: Yes.3 So then I joined the army. After the army I was in the police.
S: By army you mean...
O: The Force Publique.
S: The Force Publique.
O: The Force Publique of the Belgian Congo.
S: You were recruited.
O: I was recruited and there I did two years.
S: Where (was that)?
O: I did the training center at Kongolo.
O: CI Kongolo. Then they sent me to a battalion here, the second battalion, in Elisabethville.
O: After that you were in the police.
S: The police.
O: The police academy. After one year I got my commission. But then, I realized I had to work in my trade.
|4.||O: mm/ nikatumike ufundi wangu/
njo nilikuya kwa Berquin mu cinq: soixante six/ nilianza naye/
S: ulianza mu ...
O: kwa Ber: kwa Frères Chenge/ mu soixante six/
O: paka hivi/
S: donc hii: mu école artisanale: ulifunda kazi ya: ya: ...
O: ya usermala/
S: ya usermala/
O: eeh/ menuserie/
S: mm/ ulifunda vilevile kazi ingine?
O: yasipokuwa tu ...
S: sawa sculpture?
O: non/ ile sijui: hapana/
O: mm/ sculpture sijui hapana/
O: ebenisterie: kidogo/
S: mm: ah: oui/
|4.||O: Mm. I should work in my trade.
That is how I came to Berquin in '66. (That was when) I began (to work)
S: You started in...
O: At Ber [corrects himself] Chenge Brothers, in '66.4
O: That's how it was.
S: So, at trade school, you learned the work of...
O: Of carpentry.
S: Of carpentry.
O: Yes, [in French] carpentry.
S: Mm. Did you also learn another work?
O: No, only...
S: Carving, for instance?
O: No, that I don't know.
O: Mm. I don't know (how to do) carving.
O: A little cabinet-making.
S: Mm. Yes.
|5.||S: tulisema: ku: hii wakati ulifunza:
ah: ufundi yako/
S: na: kumbe uliingia: mu soixante six:
S: ku atelier Chenge/
O: ku atelier Chenge mu soixante six/
S: na ku: kutoka soixante six ulitumika pala kule?
O: ni kusema mu soixante six: eh: moja wa famille yangu eh?
O: moja: ndugu yangu moya: mu soixante sept: soixante sept: ndiyo/ alinipatia sehemu ya franga kidogo:
O: asema uexer: ujifunze ya kufanya commerce kidogo/
O: nilimuambiaka patron/ asema patron: nazani siku hizi sitaweza kuongeza kazi: natafuta kujifunza kwanza commerce: kama nitaweza/ na yeye alinipata ruhusa asema ah: ni muzuri/ jaribu kwanza/ nilitoka: nikaacha kazi kule: muda wa: karibu miezi nane hivi/ lakini sikuendelea: na kazi ya commerce: nilishindwa/ [chuckles]
S: uli: ulifanya commerce gani?
O: eeh: nilikwenda Kalemie: nanunua ndagaa/
O: ndagaa/ ni samaki kidogo sana/
S: ah bon/
O: wanaita fretin/
O: mu Français: fretin/ tudogo sana/
O: lakini inalishia kabisa huku basi/ watu wanakula kila mara/
O: kwenda kubeba: aller passer faire na KDL: na naletea hapa/
O: lakini: ilikuwa kila mara: inachelewa:
O: mu njia inachelewa: et puis inaanza kuharibika kidogo: kufika huku: baclients banakatala: et puis minapata hasara/ mwisho nikasema non: minarudia ku kazi yangu/ basi nilirudia mu kazi: ni paka hivi/
|5.||S: So we talked about the time
when you learned you trade.
S: And then, in '66, you came in...
S: ... at Chenge's shop.
O: At Chenge's shop, in '66.
S: And that is were you have been working, starting in '66?
O: That is to say, in '66 there was someone from my family, right?
O: A relative of mine - that was in '67 -- gave me a little money.
O: Saying I should learn to set up a little business.
O: I informed the boss: Boss, I said, these days I won't be able to go on working. I want to learn how to set up a business, perhaps I will succeed. He gave me permission, saying this is fine, start with a place. So I quit and left the work there for about eight months. But I did not get ahead with doing business, I failed. [chuckles]
S: What kind of business did you do?
O: I went to Kalemie and bought ndagaa.
O: Ndagaa, that's a tiny fish.
S: I see.
O: They call it fretin.5
O: In French (it is) fretin. Really tiny.
O: But here it is eaten a lot, people eat it all the time.
O: It was getting the fish onto the KDL (train) and ship it to this place.
O: But (the train) was late all the time.
O: It dawdled en route and (the fish) began to spoil a little. When it arrived here the customers rejected it and I made a loss. Finally I said no, I am going back to my work. So I went back to work, that's it.
|6.||S: ndiyo/ na unawaza: wee unawaza
namna gani juu ya: ya kufanya kazi sawa wee unafanya: na commerce: eh? commerce
ni muzuri kupita kazi? muntu ya kazi iko na heshima kupita ya commerçant?
O: mm/ ts: lakini niliwaza kabisa kabisa: kubaki: ku kazi: kama hivi tuko natumika: ni vizuri zaidi/ kwa sababu commerce: eh: ni bahati/
O: ni bahati/ asipokuwa na bahati: hautaendelea hapana/ ni bahati/ ni kujaliwa bahati/ kwa sababu ku kazi: kama hivi tuko: uliisha kujifunza kazi yako: unatafuta kazi unapata: na unaanza kutumika: ah: ile sasa ni akili yako wee mwenyewe/
O: unatumika: nitafanya hivi: na franga hii minapata/ ku kazi/ sasa ni wakati ule: famille yako moja: ao nduku ya bibi: ao nduku yako: naweza kumupatia sehemu ya feza zironazichunga: ao mutoto wako kwa mufano/
O: anaweza kutumika kazi ingine: ao: ya kitu kimoja anaijfunza/ ao eko na baati ya kuweza kutumika commerce/ anaweza kuendelea naye/
O: mais: na ukibakia: una fasi ya kazi: nazani uko na heshima zaidi kuliko: leo unatoka unataka kufanya kazi fulani: kiisha unakwenda huku utafanya kazi hivi: kiisha: ts: si vizuri/
O: ni yafazali kubakia ku ile ufundi yako: métier yako ile ulijifunza: uitumike profondement: eh: uijue kabisa kabisa: uikamilishe/ nazani ni vizuri zaidi kuliko/ kuliko kutafutatafuta huku na kule/ ni bule/
|6.||Right. And how do you think about
the kind of work you do (compared to being in) business? Is doing business
better than working? Is the worker more respected than the businessman?
How is this?
O: Mm. What can I say?6 When I really think about it then sticking to the kind of work we do is very good. Because business, that's (a matter of) luck.
O: It's luck. If you aren't lucky you don't get ahead. It's luck. It's getting lucky. As far as the kind of work we do is concerned, you have learned you work, you look for a job and get it, and then you begin to work. Well, now it is your own intelligence (that counts).
O: You work (and think) that's what I am going to do with the money I make on the job and then comes the time when you can give to someone from your family, a relative of your wife's or yours, part of the money you saved, or to your child, for instance.
O: (And your child) can do some other kind of work, or something he learns. It may also be that he is lucky and succeeds with a business.
O: But if you stay with the job you have, I think, this is more honorable than quitting because you want to do one kind of work and then go on to do another, in the end, what can I say, that is no good.
O: The right thing to do is stick to your trade, your trade [in French], the one you learned. You should do your work really well so that you become good at it and bring it to perfection. Looking around here and there, that's worthless.
|7.||S: na mu kazi: kule ku Chenge:
wee uko na: na spécialité yako?
S: ni kusema: njo nini?
O: ndiyo: njo kusema kule: spécialité yangu: mimi nangalia surtout: eh: kumaliza kwa vitu/
S: njo wee unafanya/
O: njo spécialité yangu: niko chargé: eh:
O: wananipatia ile: finissage/ maana yake: meubles yote: eh? vyombo yote: meza: kiti: nini: inaisha kutengenezwa:
S: vyombo njo meubles?
O: basi vyombo ni kusema [chuckle] meubles: ao: unaweza kusema vyombo/
O: par exemple tukiwa na: kwa mufano tuko na hii meza hapa: na ile: kiti: na ...
S: kyote ni ...
O: inaitwa vyombo vya nyumbani/
O: kwa mufano/ wanaisha kutengeneza vile: wanaleta kwangu/
O: na kule kwangu: napasha kuangalia: ni: na fasi gani iko mbovu:
O: eh: mubaya kidogo: na kitu namna hii kwa mufano: [points to a piece of furniture]
O: napasha ku: kuunganisha mara ingine:
O: kutengeneza: ikiende vizuri/ bon: basi nafanya ile finissage: na mwisho ni kuemballer/ kufunga/
O: kwa kutuma ao kwa kumupelekea mwenyeji/
|7.||S: And in your work there at Chenge's
do you have a specialty?
S: What is it?
O: Right, my specialty is seeing to it that things get their finish.
O: Finissage [in French].
S: So that's what you do.
O: It's my specialty, what I'm expected to do.
O: They let me do the finishing. Because furniture, all the vyombo, tables, chairs, whatever, get their final touch, right?
S: Vyombo means pieces of furniture?
O: Well, vyombo means [chuckle] furniture, or (let's just say) you can call it vyombo.7
O: For example, let's take this table here and that chair, and...
S: All that is...
O: ...is called household vyombo.
O: That's just an example. When they are ready the bring them to me.
O: At my place, my task is to look for faults.
O: Yes, if there is a small fault with a piece like this one [points to a piece of furniture].
O: My task is to join it again.
O: Fix it so it comes out right. Alright, I do the finishing job, after that it is wrapping and tying it up.8
S: Tying up.
O: To send or deliver the piece to its owner.
|8.||S: wee unaona: munaweza: hapana
munaweza: munajua ile bintu munafanya: binaenda wapi?
O: ndiyo/ mara nyingi tunajua binaenda wapi/ kwa sababu: tunafunga sisi wenyewe/
O: na mwenyewe: mwenye kuviomba anakuja kuleta addresse yake: hata kutuma wapi: hata kutuma wapi:
O: na tutajua/ kwa sababu mara nyingi ...
S: binaenda wapi?
O: mara nyingi addresse: ni patron anaandika/
S: ah bon/
O: anaandika kule: kule ku chapu yetu/ anaandika addresse/ Canada: eh: Etats Unis: Belgique:
S: fasi yote/
O: ndiyo/ lakini kwenu bado/ hatujaona ku Suisse/ [laughs]
S: ku Suisse?
O: ku Suisse hatujakuwa na: client moja na:
S: kwetu ni: ni ya: Allemagne/
O: ha: pardon/ eh: unihurumie: ni ku Allemagne/
O: sijaona client moya anacommander: kwa kutuma vitu ku Allemagne bado/
S: mm/ na beko na bei mingi?
O: beko na?
S: bale bale: bile bintu/ beko na ...
O: ndiyo/ ruhusa? ruhusa ya kutuma?
S: hata: hata ya kununua/
O: ndiyo/ ndiyo/ wananunua: wanatuma kwao/ wote: wakiisha kununua: tunatengeneza: wakati wanatoka humu: wanakwenda kwao: wanavibeba/ na si tuna ...
S: njo yote?
O: na si tunafunga/ tunapeleka/
S: inatoka: njo mwisho/
O: njo mwisho/ ou bien: uko na wakati mwengine: akiisha kufika kwao: anapendelea zaidi: anatuma addresse: anamuachia patron addresse yake:
O: anwani: alafu kiisha: anacommander tena vingine/ tunatengenza: tunatuma ku anwani yake ile hivi/
S: ah bon/
O: mm/ nayee anatengenza na patron/
|8.||S: Are you people able to, or
rather, do you know where the things you make go to?
O: Yes, often we know their destination because we do the packing.
O: And the owner, the one who ordered them, comes to give us his address, wherever (his order) should be shipped.
O: So we'll know. Because often...
S: Where do the things go?
O: Often it is the boss who writes the address.
S: I see.
O: He writes it down in our shop there. He writes the address, Canada, United States, Belgium.
O: Yes. But not yet to your country. We haven't seen (anything sent) to Switzerland. [laughs]
S: To Switzerland?
O: To Switzerland, we haven't had a customer (there).
S: My country is Germany.
O: Pardon, forgive, it's Germany.
O: I haven't seen a single customer who placed an order to send things to Germany, not yet.
S: And are they expensive?
O: Are they (expensive).9
S: They, they, (I mean) these things. Are they...
O: Yes. The license? The export license?
S: Actually I mean (are they expensive) to buy?
O: Yes, yes. They are bought and shipped to them. Once (a piece) is bought, we prepare (the shipment) when it is ready to leave here. Then (the customers) return home and take the things (they bought) with them. And we...
S: Is that all?
O: We pack (the shipment) and carry it away.
S: It goes off, and that's the end.
S: That's the end.
O: Or else, some other time, when (the customer) has returned home and really likes (what he got) he sends an address, he leave his address with the boss.
O: [In Swahili] the address. And then he orders more pieces. We get them ready and send them to his address.
S: I see.
O: Mm. And he makes his arrangement with the boss.
|9.||S: mm/ na kule mu chapu: kumbe:
kila muntu iko na kazi yake/
O: ndiyo/ kwa desturi kila muntu iko na kazi yake/
O: kuna mara nyingi: eh: wanabadilisha: kwa sababu mu: sisi wote: hatuamuke si: namna moja siku: siku yote/ namna ingine kwa mufano mimi jana nilitumika tangu asubui mpaka dix heures:
O: ts: sikuwa vizuri: nakwenda ku hôpital: ah: wakati ule: kama kuko: kitu kimoja cha haraka: eh? cas urgent/
O: wanaleta moja wa kusaidia pale: ile kazi iende upesi/ lakini kwa desturi: kila mutu: eh: ana kazi yake/
|9.||S: Mm. And back in the shop everyone
has his job.
O: Yes. As a rule, everyone has his job.
O: (But) often people get moved around because we don't all wake up the same every day. It makes a difference, for instance, when I worked yesterday from morning until ten (at night).
O: I don't feel well and go the hospital. When something has to be rushed, [in French] when it is urgent.
O: In that case they give someone help you so the this job goes fast. But as a rule, everyone has his job.
|10.||S: na beko na: na muko na: mankundi
O: tuko na mankundi mawili: ndiyo/
O: wa: sermala: na wale [hesitate] wachonga: wachongaji wale/ basculpteurs/
S: na: munaonaka namna gani? eh: ni kusema ...
O: yaah/ kwa desturi:
O: tukianagalia kazi yetu mule: yo: sisi wote: ni wa lazima/
O: tufwate kazi yetu: ya mule ku atelier Chenge/ tukiangalia sisi wote: mankundi mawili ni ya lazima/ kwa sababu: wale wasculpteurs: weko mule: wanajifunza: masomo/
O: kama vile sisi wasermala tulijifunza masomo/
O: kumbe: wakati wa kutumika: inafai kwanza: kuwe msermala/ kwa sababu kuko sculpture ile: ya inchi kabisa kabisa: iko mbalimbali na ile/ kwa sababu hii: walipata majifunzo ingine/
O: ku masomo/ na ile ya inchi: inaweza kuwa tu mawazo ya mutu: eh ...
S: ya inchi na?
O: ya majivu: ya inchi ni kusema:
S: ya ma: ya ...
O: ya ndani ya mugini basi/
S: ya: ya hii sculpture ya: ya zamani?
O: ya zamani eh: ya ubatu tu: bila kujifunza masomo: eh ...
S: non: balifanya sculptures: zanamu: balifanya zanamu/
O: zamani ndiyo balifanya sanamu/ sasa kuna watu ingine: hakujifunza: hakufanya kitu fulani ao kitu fulani: mais anakamata tu chombo chake anaanza ku: kuchonga/ kuchonga kwa mawazo: ile tunawaza asema ni uito/ eh: don/
S: eh: don/
O: iko na ile don/
S: ah bon: uito?
O: uito/ oui/ iko na ile don ya ile/ anaanza kufanya tu: ah: mwisho anatosha kitu/ par exemple eh: banafanya ... ? .../
O: mais: sasa: kuna watu waliyojifunza asema inafai ku: kutengeneza vizuri zaidi/
O: sasa unatia masomo ya ile/ sasa watu wanajifunza: wanafanya vizuri zaidi/ sasa ni sababu ile kama: wale wasculpteurs wenye kuwa kule kwetu: kwa kutaka kufanya vitu vyao: kuchonga: inafai mbele sisi tuanze/ sisi wasermala/
O: na njo maana: unakutanaka na mashini ya menuserie: ya usermala/ mm? kabisa kabisa chapu inyewe: ni ya wasculpteurs/
O: wasculpteurs kule: menuserie hawaite hapana/ kuko peintre et sculpteur/
S: ah bon/
O: Frères Chenge: ni peintre et sculpteur/
O: donc sisi ni wasaidizi kwa sababu ya nini? wale wasculpteurs wenye kuwa kule: walijifunza/ walijifunza: donc: balidévelopper:
O: eh: ile: nani: ufundi: wa kuchonga: kwa masomo/ mm/ eh bien/
|10.||S: And there are two groups.
O: We have two groups, yes.
O: The carpenters and [hesitates] those who carve, the wachongaji, [in French] the carvers.
S: And how do you see this? What I want to say...
O: Well, that is how it should be.
O: Looking at our work there, we all are needed (to do the job).
O: The way it is, we carpenters trained at a school.
O: So, when the work starts one first needs a carpenter. Because there is this local (and traditional)11 kind of carving, which is unlike the one.. .
O: ... (that is done) in school. The local kind can be something that a person invents...
S: (What do you mean by) local?
O: The majivu kind.12 Local means...
S: The what?
O: ...the kind that is done in the village.
S: Traditional carving?
O: Traditional, yes, the kind that comes from the people who don't learn it in school...
S: No, but they made [in French] sculptures, statues (in the villages). They made statues.
O: Yes, in the old days they made statues. Now, there are some people who did not learn it. Without even trying (such a person) picks up his tool and begins to carve. He carves according to his ideas This, we think, is a uito, [in French] a gift.
S: Yes, a gift.
O: Such a person has this gift.
S: I see, uito?
O: Uito, yes. Such a person has a gift for this (kind of carving), he just begins with it and in the end he comes up with an object. For example, they make ...?...
O: Nowadays you use a school for (learning) this. Nowadays people learn it and do it better. Now, when the carvers who work in our place want to do their things, the carving, we, the carpenters must get to work first.
O: And that is why (in a shop like ours) you will always find machines for doing carpentry, [in Swahili] for carpentry, right? (But) the shop belongs above all to the carvers.
O: (It is a shop of) carvers, they don't call it a carpentry shop. There is a painter and a sculptor.
S: I see.
O: The Brothers Chenge are a painter and a sculptor.
O: It is the carver's trade (one learns) at a school. Mm. That's how it is.
|11.||S: na sasa hii: namna ya kufanya
sanamu ya zamani: una: unaona namna gani? uliisha kuona? bitu ya zamani
ya kweli: ya u: ya uzuri tu?
O: ah sanamu ya mbao kwa mufano?
O: ya mbao: ndiyo niliona ya zamani/ lakini: iliyofaniziwa na mutu mwenye kujifunza kama vile patron wetu/
S: mm/ hapana na ya ile ...
O: na ya: wengine: na siku hizi wanaifanya/ ile mo: modèle ya zamani wanafanya/ inaonekana na iko/
O: ndiyo/ iko: lakini kuko umbalimbali/ difference/
S: mara ingine hii ya zamani kabisa sawa bana: banaitwa: banaita: mankisi/
O: ni ile nkisi/ nkisi iko: na kuna wengine/
S: zamani ilikuwa métier: ufundi?
O: ndiyo: ilikuwa ufundi mabalimbali vile vile/
S: kule ku kabila yako: Batabwa?
O: Batabwa ndiyo/
S: balikuwa na hii ufundi?
O: walifanya ndiyo/ lakini haikuwa: ts: haikuwa wengi zaidi/
O: Watabwa wanajua zaidi: udongo eh?
O: vitu namna hivi udongo: kufanya vyungu/
S: mm/ mm/ mbao hana zaidi?
O: mbao si zaidi/
S: na kufanya vyungu njo ilikuwa kazi ya nani?
O: vyungu: vyungu: ...
S: kazi ya: ya wanaume: ya wanamuke?
O: wanawake/ wanaume: ni kulima/
O: wanawake vyungu: eh: nani: kiisha ...
S: kufanya: bitunga:
O: vitunga voilà/ kusuka vitunga/ vyungu/
O: kusuka/ ndiyo/
O: kusuka vitunga/ vyungu/ na kitu kingine ya nini? kiisha ni kwenda:kwenda kusaidia wanaume: kuvuna? récolte/
S: kuvana: récolte/
S: alafu kutumika na: na mashona:
O: mash: kushona?
S: hapana kushona/ ma:
S: njo iko kazi ya: ya:
O: ya mwanamuke/ maana yake: mwanamuke: yeye: kazi yake ya mikono: kwanza ni: ile: kutengenza kwa mufano vyungu:
O: kusuka vilago/
O: eh? vitunga: na kwenda kuvunja kuni/ kwa sababu kuko lazima ya moto:
S: ah bon/
O: moto mangaribi/ kuvunja kuni anatumika shoka/
O: anavunja ...
S: alafu mu mashamba njo:
O: mu mashamba: kwenda kusaidia bwana: récolter/ ile mavuno/ na kiisha ...
S: lakini njo inaachana na: na makabila me: mengine eh?
O: ah: sijui/
S: fasi ingine ni mwana ...
O: ni wanawake wanalima sana: ndiyo/ lakini kwetu: kwa desturi ni mwanaume analima zaidi/
|11.||S: About the way statues were
made traditionally - what is your view on that? Have you seen some? Same
really old and beautiful objects?
O: Statues made of wood, for instance?
O: (Made of) wood. Yes, I have seen some old ones. But (what I saw) was not made by someone who had learned (the trade) such as our boss.
S: Mm. Not of this...
O: And there are some who still make (such statues) nowadays, following the traditional style (lit. model). One sees them around.
O: Yes. But they are different, [in French] there is a difference.
S: Sometimes the really old (statues) are called mankisi.13
O: Those nkisi are around, and so are others.
S: Was this a métier, a craft, in the old days?
O: Yes it was, here and there.
S: (Also) in your tribe, the Tabwa?
O: Among the Tabwa, yes.
S: They had this craft?
O: It was practiced, yes, but not by very many.
O: What the Tabwa really know (to work) is clay, right?
S: (Things made) of...
O: Things made of clay, pots.
O: You understand?
S: Mm. Mm. Wood is not used much?
O: Wood is not used much.
S: And whose job was it to make pots?
O: Pots, pots...
S: Was this men's' or women's work?
O: Women's (work). Men's (work) is cultivating.
S: And (what do) the women do?
O: Women (make) pots, yes, and also...
S: ...make baskets.
O: Baskets, right, weaving baskets (and making) pots.
O: Weaving, yes.
O: Weaving baskets. (And making) pots. And what else? And then they go and help the men with harvesting, [in French] the harvest.
S: But what about working with mashona?
O: You mean kushona (sewing).
S: Not sewing, (I mean)...
O: Shoka (a hoe)15.
S: That is the job of...
O: ... of men. Because the women's job it to work with their hands,16 above all it is the forming of pots, for instance.
O: (And) weaving mats.
O: Right? (Making) baskets and going out to chop fire wood. Because making fire is their task.
S: I see.
O: The fire in the evening. To chop the firewood (a woman) works with an adz..
O: She chops...
S: Whereas (work) in the fields is...
O: In the fields it is to help the husband with the harvest. And then...
S: But this is different from one tribe to another, right?
O: Well, I don't know.
S: In other places it is...
O: It is the women who work the fields most of the time, yes. But back home the custom is that the man does most of the work in the fields.
|12.||S: wee ulizaliwa mu mugini?
O: hapana nilizaliwa: mu ville/
S: mu ville sawa ...
S: ya mu Kalemie?
O: ilikuwa iliitwa Albertville wakati ule/
S: baba yako alitumika kazi ya? ya kule/
O: baba alikuwa: mwalimu/
O: kiisha alikuwa inspecteur wa masomo/
S: ah bon/
O: oui/ alikufa sasa mu mwaka: mu soixante sept/
S: soixante sept alikufa/
O: eh/ pardon mu soixante: soixante [hesitates] soixante: eh tunatoka mu soixante combien? mu septante: septante et un:
S: septante et un/
O: oui: septante: non: septante deux/
S: septante deux/ hii mwa: hii mwaka ...
O: ni mwaka jana tu/ non: septante et un: si je me trompe/
S: septante et un/
O: septante et un/
|12.||S: Were you born in a village?
O: No, I was born in town.
S: A town like...
S: In Kalemie?
O: It was called Albertville at that time.
S: What was your father's work there?
O: Father was a teacher.
S: A teacher?
O: In the end he was a school superintendent.
S: I see.
O: Yes. He died recently in '67.
S: He died in '67.
O: Sorry, it was in '60 [hesitates], '60 - where are we now? - it was in '70, in '71.
S: In '71.
O: Yes, '70, no, '72.
S: '72, this year...
O: It was just last year, no in '71, if I am not mistaken.
|13.||S: kumbe: wee ulifunda Swahili
paka kwa utoto?
O: kwa baba/ tangu nyumbani/ [chuckles]
S: mulisemaka: siku yote mulisemaka Swahili/
O: kila siku Kiswahili/ kwa sababu alikuwa anafundisha Kiswahili/
S: ah bon/
O: ndiyo/ alikuwa mwalimu:
S: ya Swahili ya ya:
O: Swahili ile [chuckles]
S: ya bore: ya safi/
S: na mama yako aliku: alikuwa Tabwa vilevile?
O: hapana/ mama ni muKusu/
O: ndiyo/ ni mutu wa.... [overlapping]
S: ah kumbe mulisemaka Swahili/
O: Kindu/ Kindu ndiyo/
S: ulifunda Tabwa? wee? kiTabwa?
O: kwa sababu: baba vilevile alizaliwa: si ku Utabwa kabisa/
O: baba yake ni muTabwa/
O: baba yake na baba yangu/
S: mm/ nkambo yangu/
O: ni nkambo yangu/ ni muTabwa/ alafu mama yake na baba:
O: [chuckles] ni muBwari/ ni muntu ya province ya Kivu/
O: eeh/ alors kwangu miye: nilikuwa: mwenye kuhangaika/
O: kwa sababu: kama unakwenda kwa babu yangu:
O: ule nkambo yangu mwanaume:
O: baba yake na baba: anasema kiTtabwa/
O: ananiambia mu kiTabwa/ mais kama unakwenda na bibi yake: anaanza kuniambia mu kiBwari/ [chuckles]
S: ah bon/
O: alafu kama unakwenda kwa baba yake na mama: anasema kiKusu: alors je suis: ts: nilikuwa ku mahangisho kabisa/
|13.||S: So you learned Swahili during
O: From Father, ever since I became part of the household. [chuckles]
S: You spoke Swahili every day.
O: It was Swahili every day. Because (Father also) taught Swahili.
S: I see.
O: Yes, he was a teacher...
S: ... of Swahili.
O: Of that kind of Swahili. [chuckles]
S: The refined, pure kind.
S: An was you mother also Tabwa?
O: No, my mother is Kusu.
O: Yes, she is from... [overlapping]
S: Ah, that's why you spoke Swahili (at home).
O: (She is from) Kindu. Kindu, yes.
S: Did you yourself learn Tabwa?
O: (No,) because Father also was not really born in Tabwa country.
O: His father was Tabwa.
O: My father's father.
S: Mm. (You would call him) my grandfather.
O: It was my grandfather, he was Tabwa. But my father's mother...
O: [chuckles] was Bwari, from Kivu province.
O: Yes, therefore I was kind of confused at home.
O: Because, if you went to my grandparent's place...
O: My grandfather.
O: My father's father, he spoke Tabwa.
O: He would talk to you in Tabwa but when you went to his wife she would speak to you in Bwari. [chuckles]
S: I see.
O: However, when you went to mother's father, he spoke Kusu. So it was a really confusing situation for me.
|14.||S: sasa juu ya hii Swahili bana:
ah: banasemaka humu mu Lubumbashi/ wee unaona namna gani? iko Swahili ya
bule: ya: inaachana namna gani?
O: nikiangaria kabisa kabisa: Swahili ya humu mu Lubumbashi: kwa ngambo yetu: sisi mwenye kutoka: ginsi tulisikia Swahili ya kule: Tanganyika/
O: tunaona kama Swahili ya huku: kuko: maneno mamoja mamoja:
O: isiya adabu/ mm?
O: isiya adabu/ anasema tu bila: ts: heshima ndani/ mm?
O: kwa sababu kule kwetu: mbele ya kusimulia na mutu: unaweza kutafuta ginsi gani nitasimulia na huyu mutu/
O: ginsi ya kusimulia naye/
O: na uta: [interrupts himself] moyen de parler/
S: ah oui/
O: chercher les arguments/ comment je veux parler avec: avec cet homme/
S: njo ginsi/
O: njo ginsi ya kutafuta: ya kusimulia/ ginsi/
S: ni kusema: [overlapping]
O: kama vile: tukisema: namna/
S: kwanza ya kusimulia na muntu ...
O: aah: kwanza ya kusimulia na muntu asema ah: comportement mbele ya kuparler na huyu mutu/ nitaparler namna gani/
S: wee una: una ...
O: unajifunza mu kichwa/
O: ah: kwa sababu muntu ile asikie ni: ah huyu mutu iko na adabu ao hana adabu/ mm/ huku: ni watu: wenye kusema Kiswahili/ inaitwa Kiswahili vilevile/ lakini: kabisa kabisa: ts: si Kiswahili kabisa/
S: juu ya nini?
O: ts: kwa sababu: uko na mbalimbali/ unaweza kusema kwa mufano kule tunasema: ah jua: inaangazia/ mm? unasema voilà jua inaangazia kabisa leo/
O: sasa: ah: yua leo iko makali hivi/ [laughs]
O: ni mabalimbali kabisa/
S: yua leo iko makali/
O: eeh/ unaweza kusema muke wangu atafika kesho/ ah: mon cher: bibi yangu atakuya kesho/
O: ah: ni Swahili ndiyo mais: iko fort/
O: iko fort/ iko nguvu sana: na mbalimbali kidogo/ kwa sababu ukisema kama...
S: na: kwa...
O: muke wangu atakuja: ni terme ya utaratibu/
S: muke: muke wako?
O: muke wangu/
O: c'est-à-dire bibi yangu/
O: atakuja kesho/ huku unasema: oh: dis: bibi yangu atakuya kesho dis/ [laughs]
O: alors: ile inakuwa ni ...
|14.||S: Now about the Swahili they
talk here in Lubumbashi. What is you opinion? Is it a worthless sort of
Swahili, how is it different?
O: If I really look closely at the Swahili here in Lubumbashi, from our perspective of people coming from (the region near Lake) Tanganyika and having heard the kind of Swahili spoken there.
O: We consider the Swahili here, at least in some cases, ...
O: ... as lacking politeness. You understand?
O: It lacks politeness. Let's just say there is not respect in it. Mm?
O: Because back home, before you talk with a person you may have to find out (and ask yourself), what kind (Swahili) am I going to use talking with this person?
O: The way one speaks with someone.
O: And you are going to...[interrupts himself] (ginsi ya kusimulia) means moyen de parler.
S: I see.
O: [continues in French] Looking for [in French] arguments18, how do I want to talk with this person.
S: That is ginsi.
O: That is the kind you are looking for in a conversation, ginsi.
S: That means [overlapping]
O: It would be the same if we were to say "a manner" (of speaking).
S: Before one talks with a person...
O: Right, before talking with a person, (figuring out) how to behave before one talks to this person. How am I going to talk?
S: And you...
O: I learned that by figuring it out (lit. in my head).
O: Yes, because a person (talked to) should sense whether the person (talking) is polite or not. Mm. Here people do speak Swahili. It is also called Swahili, but by any standards it is not really Swahili.
O: Well, because you have difference. You could say - for instance, back there we say - ah, the sun is shining, right? You say, look, the sun is really bright today.
O: Now, (here they say): Today the sun is ferocious19, (something like) this. [laughs]
O: That is really different.
S: [repeating the phrase] Today the sun is ferocious.
O: Yes. (Another example:) You can say my wife (muke) will arrive tomorrow. (Here they say): Ah, mon cher, my wife (bibi) will come tomorrow.20
O: Well, this is Swahili, yes but it is tough.
S: I see.
O: It is tough. It is very strong and a bit different. Because if you say...
S: And in (proper Swahili)...
O: ...my muke will come, this is an expression of gentleness.21
S: Muke, your wife?
O: My wife.
O: (Muke) means my wife.
O: She will come tomorrow. Here you say: Hey, buddy22, my wife will come tomorrow [laughs]S: [laughs]
O: So this is (impolite).
|15.||S: eh/ na: mara ingine unasikia
sawa mi mina: minasema: eh: Swahili ya bazungu/
O: ya huku/ ya bazungu?
S: kiloko ya sawa humu/
O: mais non: mi minaona kama ...
S: si inaachana: hata bantu ya humu banaachana ya: juu ya Swahili/
O: ya Swahili ndiyo/
S: wee unaona namna gani?
O: kwa mufano weye:
O: unasi: unajikaza kusimulia Kiswahili: karibu kizuri/
O: ungaliweza kupata: wa mbele: ya kujua Swahili: ungaliweza kupata watu kama ile si tulitokea ngambo ya kule Tanganyika: nazani ungalisema Kiswahili vizuri zaidi/
O: mm/ ungalisema vizuri zaidi/ mais: si kusudia wale watu wenye kusema Kis: kile Kiswahili: njo maana: wanasema Kiswahili kibaya hapana/ sababu wanajikaza wajue Kiswahili/
O: alafu: hawapati/ watu wa kuweza kuwafundisha Kiswahili bora/
O: eh? sasa na ikiwa kama hawapati wale watu kwa sababu: wale watu wenye ... ? ... kufundisha Kiswahili bora: wanafwata hali: ya inchi/ na ni: alafu unaanza kuwafundisha: eh: Kiswahili kya: kya inchi/ mm?
O: donc wanaadapter mentalité: ya inchi/
S: mara ingine: hii wakati ulifika humu/
S: ulisikia nguvu ya kusi: ya kusikia wantu?
O: ndiyo/ ilikuwa matata kabisa/ [chuckles] ilikuwa matata/
O: kwa mufano: eh: wakati wa asubui wakuwa bien/
O: atamuita/ yambo yenu/ ah: kule kwetu haiwezikani/ hamuyambo yenu? atashangaa ..?... yambo yenu? c'est quoi ça? mm? kule kwetu asubui: ajiamuka: wakiwe watu wawili:
O: mm/ nasema: hamujambo wababa: mukiwe mwanaume:
O: hamujambo wamama: mukiwe wanawake/
O: oui/ sasa/ kuna vijana: wanawake ao wanaume: ...?... vijana wanawake: mm? wanakamata: ile heshima ya wamama/ wanapatia wale vijana wanawake/ mm? hamujambo wamama/ wanawapatia ile heshima kwa sababu: wale wavijana wanawake: nao ...?... ya heshimu/ wanakuheshimia/
O: wao wenyewe/ basi njo wanawapa ile heshima/
O: vjina wanaume: ah: baba: jambo: hamujambo wababa: ni vile/ ya huku: yambo yenu: ah yambo yako/
O: yambo si yangu/ [laughs]
S: wee uko semaka sawa vile bale huku/
S: kama muna: mara ingine kama muna: muna: sumbulia na bantu ya humu/ wee uningia mu hii Swahili ya humu?
O: ndiyo: mimi lakini najikaza/
O: niwaambie mu Swahili ya humu/
O: lakini: wao watasema tu sawa: aaah: huyu anasema Kiswahili kingine kabisa/
O: anasema Kiswahili kingine/ mi nitajikaza: niwasikilizishe mu Swahili ya humu: mais: wao wanajikana namna ingine/
|15.||S: Right. Probably you hear that
I speak Swahili like the Europeans do?
O: The Europeans here?
S: A little like they speak here.
O: Not really, in my view....
S: Is it not different? Even the people here differ in the way they speak Swahili.
S:: How do you see this?
O: You, for example.
O: You make an effort to speak a Swahili that is almost correct.
O: If you could meet (the kind people we mentioned) earlier, those who know Swahili, people like us who came from the Tanganyika region I think you would be speaking Swahili very well indeed.
O: Mm. You would speak it very well. However, (the point I am making) is not to disparage (lit. tell lies about) the people who speak (local) Swahili, as if their way of speaking it were something bad. They make an effort to know Swahili.
O: But they don't meet people who could teach them refined Swahili.
O: Right? Now, it is possible that because they don't meet such people, people who could teach (them) refined Swahili, they follow local usage. If you teach them local Swahili, mm?
O: Then they adapt to the local mentality.
S: Could it be that when you arrived here...
S: ...you found it difficult to understand people?
O: Yes, there was a lot of trouble. [chuckles] It was trouble.
O: For instance, in the morning, they came up with a goodie.
O: One would call out to a person yambo yenu [the local greeting]. Back home this is impossible. (Or) hamuyambo yenu? One would wonder (back home). Yambo yenu? [in French] What is that? Mm? Back home, when a person wakes up (and meets) two persons.
O: Mm. I say hamujambo wababa, when they are men.
O: Hamujambo wamama, when they are women.
O: Yes. Now in the case of youngsters, female or male ...?... (Let's say) they are female, then they are addressed respectfully as wamama (mothers). Mm? Hamujambo wamama. They pay them that respect because those female youngsters ...?... (deserve) respect. They treat you respectfully...
O: ... in turn. That is why they are courteous.
O: Male youngsters (will say) baba jambo or hamujambo wababa, that's how it is. People here (just say) yambo yenu or yambo yako.
O: Yambo is not yangu (mine). [laughs]
S: And you (can) speak like the locals.
S: When you talk with people here, do you sometimes get into local Swahili?
O: Yes, but I have to make an effort.
O: To address them in local Swahili.
O: Still, they will say the Swahili this guy speaks is really different.
O: He speaks a different kind of Swahili. I will make an effort to make them understand (what I say) in local Swahili but they refuse (to accept) a different kind.
|16.||S: unaona: unaona ma: namna ngapi
ya Swahili bansemaka humu?
S: nani ina: anaachana na ...
O: tunaweza kupata namna mbili ao tatu/ kwa sababu kwanza kuna Swahili ingine kwa mufano siku hizi/ mm? unaweza kuja: mwenzangu moja fulani anakuja kuniuliza nyumbani/
O: atakutana watoto wangu: jambo watoto/ jambo sana baba/ baba iko wapi? ikiwe: kwa mufano minaisha kulala/
O: watoto wataambia asema: baba aliisha kulala/
O: ah na ukifwata Swahili kabisa kabisa: aliisha kulala c'est que eko: mwenye kuamuka sasa/
O: aah/ mais si Swahili muzuri/
O: mm/ ou bien: ule mwenzangu atauliza: baba: anaisha kwenda ku kazi? mm? batoto batamujibu: kwa mufano sikwenda ku kazi ao nikwenda ku matembezi: watasema: banasema asema: asikwende/
O: asikwende/ eh: ile si Swahili/ asikwende/
S: muna: munasemaka namna gani mu Swahili?
O: kama haukwenda: wakati ule watoto wanapasha kujibu: baba hakwenda/
O: hakwenda mu kazi/
S: ao asiyo ...
O: ile si: si jibu kabisa hapana/ [chuckles]
O: inafaa kusema baba hakwenda ku kazi: alikwenda ku magazini/ alikwenda kutembea/
O: eh? ooh baba: asikwende ku kazi: aliisha kwenda: kuloba/ kwa mufano/
O: eh kuloba/ ni mbalimbali kabisa/
S: unaona sawa: [interrupting myself] usisahabu kunywa/
O: [chuckles] ndiyo/
S: itakuwa na moto/
|16.||S: As you observe it, how many
different kinds of Swahili are spoken here?
S: Which (kind) is different from...
O: We can find two or three kinds. First there is one kind of Swahili -- nowadays, to give you an example, right? - a certain friend23 may come to the house to ask (me about something).
O: If he meets my children (the greeting is) jambo children, (they answer) jambo sana father. (He asks) where is your father? Take, for example, that I have gone to bed.
O: The children will tell him, Father is already asleep (lit. father has finished going to sleep).
O: Well, if you strictly follow Swahili "he has finished going to sleep" means that he is now awake.
S: He is awake.
O: You see, this is not good Swahili.
O: Mm. Or this friend of mine may ask, has your father gone to work? Mm? If I did not go to work or for a walk, for instance, the children will say asikwende (he has not gone).
O: Asikwende. Well, that's not Swahili. Asikwende.
S: How do you say it in Swahili.
O: If you haven't gone the children must answer baba hakwenda.
O: Hakwenda mu kazi (he hasn't gone to work).
S: Or (something like) asiyo...
O: That's not a real answer. [chuckles]
O: [In correct Swahili] one must say, he has not gone to work, he went to the store, he went for a walk.
S: I see.
O: You understand? (Or the may say), ooh, Father did not go to work, he went fishing, for instance.
O: [in French] Fishing.
S: [in Swahili] Fishing.
O: Yes, fishing. (This sort of Swahili) is really different.
S: Do you see, [interrupting my self] don't forget to drink.
O: [chuckles] Yes.
S: [The beer] will get warm.
mara ingine niliona kama: hii Swahili ya wanaume na wanamuke inaachana/
O: ya humu?
S: uliona vile? mara ingine bamama banasemaka Swahili ya ...
O: lakini: kuna mifano ya kuweza kusema/ kuna wanawake wanasema ao Swahili ya kubembeleza/ eh?
S: [to myself in English] flatter/
O: mm/ wanasema Swahili ile ya kubembeleza/ na wanaume: desturi yao ni kusema/ anasema tu: hakuna kubembeleza: ou bien nayee anaweza kuwa na matermes inye ya kubembeleza/
O: na inaonekana kama wanawake wanaweza kubembeleza: ou bien anasema Swahili ya wakati wa asiri/ eh: anasema na makali: zaidi/
S: mm/ hii Swahili banasema mu radio ao mu: mu télévision: ku journal parlé: eh?
S: una: unawaza kama bantu bote ya humu banasikia?
O: kwanza hawapendi/ [chuckles] hawana furaha juu ile Swahili/ ni sababu siku moya nilikuambia kama kuko rafiki yangu: ni ndugu yangu: ni muBwari puisque: nkambo yangu mama ni muBwari/
O: ni Mikael ?Mwakaruzho/
O: unamuonaka ku TV mara moya moya/ Kakozi/
O: authenticité/ authenticité Kakozi Mwakaruzho/ yeye ni ndugu: ni rafiki: wa utoto:
O: tangu utoto yetu/ ah: wanamuchukia sana/ wakimuona: oooh citoyen Kakozi: unasema Kiswahili ya nguvu sana/
O: na yeye anaombwa kule ku radio/ wanamuomba aseme Kiswahili bora/
S: bora tu/
O: ah/ wanamuomba aseme Kiswahili bora/
|17.||S: Occasionally I observed that
men and women speak a different Swahili here.
S: Did you observe that, too? Sometimes the ladies speak a kind of Swahili...
O: Well there are instances where you could say that. There are women who speak Swahili in a way intended to flatter, right?
S: [to myself in English] flatter.
O: The speak a Swahili that flatters. As to the men, they are used to talking straight, although a man can also use flattering terms.
O: It appears that women can flatter. Unless (you take) the Swahili a woman speaks when she wants to be annoying, then she can talk very tough indeed.
S: Mm. What about the Swahili spoken on the radio or television, in the news?
S: Do you think that all the people here understand it?
O: First, they don't like it. [chuckles] They don't enjoy that kind of Swahili. The other day I told you about a friend (who works at the radio station), he is a relative of mine, a Bwari, because my grandmother is Bwari.
O: You see him on TV now and then. (His name is) Kakozi.
O: (Under the regime of) authenticity, is is Kakozi Mwakaruzho. He is my relative and has been a friend since childhood.
O: Since our childhood. Well, he is really disliked. When people see him (they say). Ooh Citoyen25 Kakozi, you speak a very difficult Swahili.
O: He was under orders at the radio station to speak refined Swahili.
S: Really refined.
O: Yes, they asked him to speak refined Swahili.
|18.||S: na mule mu kazi: mu chapu:
S: munasemaka Swahili ya: ya: inaachana namna ingine:
O: mule mu chapu: ni kama vile nilikuambia mbele/ ni kama vile nilikuambia mbele/ kwa sababu: tuna: changana: tunachanganika/
O: tuko katika muchangano/ tuko sisi wa: kule Kalemie: tunazaliwa kusema Kiswahili bora/ tuko na bengine ba humu ...[overlap]
S: na bote banamu: banamiangaria ...
O: banatuangaria sisi: tukisimulia njo tunasikilizana lakini: wanasema kama Kiswahili kyetu ni kya nguvu/
O: sisi tunasikia kama huyu anatufuta kusema nini/ wakati akasema/ mm: tunatafuta ku: tunasema asema aah: anatafuta kusema hivi/ lakini si tulisema: ahah/ kuna mara ningi wanatuuliza/ alafu ile ulisema ni nini: maana yake? ilikuwa siku moja: eh: bibi wa patron alizala ule bébé ule/
O: ule mutoto ... ? ... huyu/ bon: patron alituambia: nitamipa bilauri moya: eh: tunapata mugeni mupya/
O: siku: bibi alitoka ku maternité/ tuliingia mule mu salon ya patron: tunaikala: patron alituletea chupa ya whisky/ tunakunywa sisi wote/
O: na kiisha alisema: mwende muongeze kazi/ lakini katika nkundi letu: kuko wengi ni wanyiwaji/
O: wanyiwaji/ les buveurs/
S: ah oui/
O: eh/ donc entre nous:
O: il y en a beaucoup qui sont buveur/
S: ah bon/ [laughs]
O: [laughs] à commencer par moi même/
O: je veux dire/
O: bon/ balisema: ah ah/ patron/ unatupatia nusu: nusu ya: ya ver: ya whisky/ sasa: unatu: unatuletea soif/
O: unatuletea kiu kabisa kabisa/ na unasema tuongeze kazi: haiwezekane/ tulidésigner doyen wetu ni Raymond/ Mwape/
S: oui/ [laughs] njo doyen wenu?
O: le doyen wa atelier [chuckle]/ tulimudésigner asema ah non: sinon: hatuwezi kusikia/ sasa utatuzungulusha tu: tunatumika: mais non/ inafaa kintu moya basi/ doyen alikwenda asema: patron: hakuna namna ya kuongeza kazi/
O: leo: ni siku ya furaha/ mutoto anazaliwa: kwa desturi: tunapashwa tupumuzike/
O: juu ya furaha ya kuzaliwa mutoto: eh: mama na mutoto: iko salama: banatoka ku hôpital vizuri: kumbe: utupatie ver: eh: tusinywe hapa: maana yaka saa ingine kuuzi: mutoto asilale usingizi: eh?
O: twende tunywe fasi ingine na tutakuya kuongeza kazi kesho/ patron alikuwa d'accord: alitosha cinq Zaire:
O: asema ah bon: mutakunywa ver yangu kule na kazi mutarudia kesho/
S: ah bon/
O: bon/ tuliondoka: tulikuja mu route Munama humu: humu/ kuna kabar kamoja: fasi moya: tuliingia mule: tunafanya calcul yetu: oh/ kwa desturi mimi: bwana Yoanne: minakunywa Tembo/
O: kwa sababu uliniuliza ...
S: aah: mi sina na Tembo/
O: ah: napenda Tembo/ tulikuwa kufanya calcul yetu: Tembo: Simba: Coca Cola: Orangeade: tulianza kunywa/
O:alafu mi nilipenda kufanya ka: usemi kidogo/ usemi kidogo: discours kidogo/
S: discours: ah bon/ [laughs]
O: juu ya ile/
O: niliomba: bakakubali/
O: asema bon: useme/ nilianza kusema: Léon alileta fujo kabisa kabisa/ [laughs]
O: Léon anasema non: mi sisikie ile Kiswahili bore unasema pale/
S: ni hii: ndugu yake ya patron?
O: ndiyo/ eh ndugu yake ...
S: maneno yee alizaliwa humu/
O: yee alizaliwa humu: alikomea humu: alafu hajui kabisa kabisa kusimulia Kiswahili bore/
O: ijapokuwa mama yake: anasema Kiswahili bora kabisa kabisa/ sasa mi wakati nilianza kusema discours yangu: nikasema: angalia unajua kama: eh: kuwa mtu muzima: mm: kuwa na ustadi na kuendelea: kupata maendeleo: ni mushinji/ nikasema kwanza mbele inafaa kuwa na mshinji/ alafu ile mshinji: mot mshinji: Léon hakusikia/
O: anasema: aaah: mukubwa Albert: unasema nini: ile mshinji mi sisikie/
O: basi: pale pale: discours iliisha/ [laughs]
O: unaona kama kwa desturi: hata vile tuko mule mu chapu: eh: Swahili inaachana/
O: sisi: tuko tunasikia: kwepesi: ile wanatafuta kusema/
S: mm/ alafu bo ...
O: alafu wao: wanatrouver: kila mara mamots difficiles ndani/
O: hata sii vile vile: kuna maSwahili ungine wanatumia mule: tunaitrouver difficile: ni nini ile/
|18.||S: And how about at work, back
in the shop.
S: You are used to speaking yet another kind of Swahili there.
O: In the shop it is like I told you earlier. It's like I told you earlier. Because we are a mixed bunch.
O: We are mixed. Those of us from Kalemie, we were born speaking refined Swahili. Then we have those who come from this place... [overlap]
S: And all of them observe you...
O: They observe us but when we discuss we understand each other. (Still) they say that our Swahili is difficult.
O: We understand what a person wants to say. When he speaks, mm, we make an effort, telling (ourselves), ah, that's what he is trying to say. But when we speak, well, often they ask us, but what is this you said, what does it mean? One day, when the boss's wife had this baby.
O: This child ...?....Alright, the boss told us, I am going to treat you to a drink (lit. glasses). We have a new guest.
O: It was the day when his wife left the maternity ward. We went into the boss's living room, sat down, the boss brought us a bottle of whisky, and we all drank.
O: Then he said, go no and continue with your work. However, in our group there are many who are drinkers.
S: They are?
O: Drinkers, [in French] drinkers.
S: I see.
O: There are drinkers among us.
S: I see. [laughs]
O: [laughs] Myself, to start with.
S: I see.
O: I want to admit this (lit. say).26
O: Alright. They said, well, boss, you give us half a glass of whisky, now you make us thirsty.
O: You give us a real [in Swahili] thirst. And then you say we should go back to work, that is impossible. We designated our doyen, he is Raymond Mwape.
S: Yes. [laughs] He is your doyen?
O: The doyen of the shop. [chuckle] We designated him (as our spokesman) to tell (the boss) that we cannot do as we are told. Now you are going to make us turn around and go back to work? No way. It should be one thing (or the other). So our doyen went to tell the boss that there was no way of going on with our work.
O: Today is a day of joy. A child was born and custom demands that we take a rest.
O: Because there is joy about a child being born, mother and child have come back safely from the hospital, treat us to a drink. (But) we should not drink here because this may eventually be disturbing so that the child cannot sleep, right?
O: Let's go drink elsewhere and then we'll go on with our work tomorrow. The boss agreed and took out five Zaire.
O: Alright, he said, you'll have a glass on me somewhere else and for the work you come back tomorrow.
S: I see.
O: Alright. We left and got to Munama street here (in Lubumbashi), there is a certain place, a little bar. We went in and made our calculation -- by the way, Bwana Johannes, usually I drink Tembo.
O: Because if you had asked me...
S: Ah, I don't have Tembo.
O: Well, I like Tembo. So we did our calculation, (so many) Tembo, Simba, Coca Cola, Orangeade, and we began to drink.27
O: Now, I wanted to make a little speech. A little speech, [in French] a little discourse.
S: A discourse, I see. [laughs]
O: About the occasion.
O: I asked to be acknowledged.
O: The word was, fine, speak. I began to speak but Léon made a lot of trouble. [laughs]
O: Léon said, no, I just don't understand this refined Swahili you are speaking.
S: He is the one who is a relative of the boss's?
O: Yes, a relative of his...
S: (He protested) because he was born here.
O: He was born here and grew up here and he really cannot converse in refined Swahili.
O: If you take his mother, she speaks a truly refined Swahili. Anyway, I began to pronounce my discourse and said, look, you know that to be a complete human being, mm, to have the capacity for progress, to make progress, is (a matter) of being a mushinji. First and above all, I said, you must be a mushinji. But this mushinji, the word mushinji, Léon did not understand.
S: Mm. He said, ah, Albert, with respect, what are you talking about, I don't understand this mushinji.
O: Well, that was the end of the discourse. [laughs]28
O: You see, as one would expect, we in the shop (speak) different kinds of Swahili.
O: For us it is easy to understand what they are trying to say.
S: Mm. Whereas they...
O: They always find difficult words (when we speak).
O: Even for us there are certain kinds of expressions of Swahili spoken there that we find difficult.29 What is this (we ask)?
|19.||S: na juu ya kusikilizana mu kazi:
eh/ sawa mara ingine unapashwa kufundisha ingine: hata:
S: atatumikia mashini namna gani:
S: hata: atatengeneza: kintu namna gani: mm?
S: una: unawaza kama Swahili: mara ingine bantu banasema Swahili haina na: na namna ya ...
O: ya kuongozana/
S: ya kuongozana/ ah? eh: Swahili iko paka:.
O: langue ya kusikilizana/
S: ya: lugha bule ya: mm? sasa mu kazi: unasikia namna gani? hii Swahili inaenea?
O: mi minaona kama Swahili: iko nzuri zaidi kwa kusikilizana na kwa kuweza kuongeza: kuongoza mutu/ kabisa/
O: kwa sababu: kwa mufano/ niko na ule mwenzangu tunatumika naye sasa/ Kasika/ ule tuko naye établi moya/
S: Bina ...
O: Bin Moma/
S: Bin Moma/
O: eh/ ni mfundi vilevile/ lakini ndani ya ufundi: kuna: maendeleo mbalimbali/
O: sisi wote tuko bamenusiers/ inawezekana kama yeye: alizoea tu: eh: kutengeneza: viti: mara nyingi: viti/ kwake alikuwa nazoea kutengeneza viti ao kabati kwa mufano/
O: mm/ na mimi nizoea kutengeneza mara nyingi sana vitanda basi/ elimu yangu inaendelea sana ku vitanda/
O: ah: inawezekana: mara moja moja: yee ataweza kuniuliza: eh bwana: ts: alafu kitanda hiki juu ya kutia calé fulani ao nini: ninamuongoza na atasikia/ atatengeneza/
O: hakuna magumu/
O: hakuna magumu/ Kiswahili ...
|19.||S: And about communication at
work, occasionally you need to teach another person.
S: How he should work a machine.
S: Or how he should put a piece together, right?
S: Do you think that the Swahili people speak may not be a way...
O: ... to guide each other.
S: To guide each other. Right? Swahili is just...
O: A language to communicate with each other.30
S: An inferior language, right? Now, how do you experience this at work, is this sort of Swahili sufficient?
O: In my view, Swahili works very well when it comes to communicate and to guide a person, very much so.
O: Because - let me give you an example - I have this fellow worker now, Kasika. We share the same work bench.
O: Bin Moma.
S: Bin Moma.
O: Yes. He is a craftsman, too. But there are different degrees of craftsmanship.
O: We are both (lit. all) carpenters. But it may be that he got used to putting chairs together, (something he does) often.
S: Mm. And I usually (make) beds. As far a making beds is concerned my competence makes is improving (all the time).
O: So it happens occasionally that he will ask me, Bwana, how do you peg this bed together, or something like that. I will instruct him, he listens and will put the piece together.
O: There is no problem (with that).
O: There is no problem. Swahili...
|20.||S: na mara ingine kiFrançais inaingia
ku: ku Swahili/
O: ku Swahili ndiyo/ kwa sababu ya nini? mbele ya ku: kupambanuka akili yetu: mbele wa kufika: wa kufika miaka kumi: wa miaka kumi na mbili: tulijifunza kwanza Kiswahili mu masomo yote/
O: oui/ Swahili: Swahili: Swahili: Swahili: kiisha ... ? ... wa miaka kumi na mbili: kumi na tatu: Français/ grammaire Français inaanza: ... ? ... simulia Kifransa/
S: alafu mu kazi: sababu gani bana: banachangachanga Swahili na:
O: na Français? ah: sikusudi kabisa: ile inakuwa ni kama ni mazoezi/ mazoezi/
S: mara ingine: ni: nitaleta mufano/
S: mara ingine niliona: kama muntu anasema: anasema: njo rabot ya kuranda naye/
O: njo rabot ya kuranda naye? [chuckles]
S: bon/ ni kusema yee anajua hii neno ya: ya rabot/
O: mu Swahili: ni randa/
O: ni randa ndiyo/
S: sasa: sababu gani anasema rabot?
O: aah: ile: [hesitates] ni tangu ku masomo tuseme/ ku masomo yetu ya ufundi: hakukuwa tena: mara nyingi Kiswahili hapana/
O: mm/ katika masomo hakuwa: ni kama vile nakuambia hapa mbele/ kutoka ku primaire: wakati tulianza kujua grammaire Français: ilianza masimulizi sasa ni ya Kifransa/ masimulizi na Kifransa: masimulizi na Kifransa/ hata kufika ku post-primaire inyewe sasa pale ku masomo ya ufundi: ilikuwa ni Kifransa: Kifransa/ Swahili: tulikuwa tunasimulia sababu ni lugha yetu/
O: eh/ lakini wakati ule: ilikuwa tu ni Kifransa/ kwa sababu kuna mara ningi sana: waprofesseurs wetu: tulikuwa nao: hawakuwa najua Swahili/ balikuwa najifunza Swahili/ alafu masomo waliji: walitufundisha tu Français/ donne mois un rabot: donne mois: alors: rabot rabot rabot inabakia tu/
O: lakini vitabu vinafasilia mutu: ni Kiswahili: eh? banamufasilia ah: hii ni randa/ kwa mufano siku ile uliniuliza voilà: nilikuambia ile randa/ randa ndogo: randa kubwa: ile varlope: eh? haina kusudi kabisa wanasema vile: ni kwa saba: ni mazoezi/ ilikuwa kama vile habitude/
|20.||S: Sometimes it happens that French
intrudes into Swahili.
O: Into Swahili, yes. Why? Before our mind got settled, before we were ten of twelve years old we first learned Swahili in all the schools.
O: Yes, Swahili, Swahili, Swahili, Swahili. Then (starting) at the age of twelve or thirteen (it was) French. French grammar started (then)...?... (and we began to) talk French.
S: But at work, why do they mix Swahili with...
O: With French? To tell you the truth,31 this happens because it is a habit. A habit.
S: Maybe I should give an example.
S: One time I observed a person saying, this is a rabot (plane) [in Swahili] to randa (plane) with.
O: This is a rabot to plane with? [chuckles]
S: Alright. What this means is that the speaker knows the word for rabot.
S: In Swahili it is randa.
O: It is randa, yes.
S: Now why does he say rabot?
O: Well, that [hesitates] let's just say, it goes back to the time (we were) in school. In our trade school Swahili was not often spoken.
O: Mm. At school it was as I told you earlier. After primary school we got to know French grammar and conversations began to be in French. It was conversations in French, conversations in French. So when you got to the secondary level at trade school it was French, French. Swahili we talked because it was our language.
O: Yes. But at that time (in school) it was French only. Often our teachers did not know Swahili. They were learning Swahili, but at school they taught us in French.
[In French] Give me a rabot, give it to me, rabot, rabot, rabot (in the end the word) stays (with you).
O: But there are books that can explain to a person (what the word is in) Swahili, right? They explain to him that this is a randa. For example, the other day you asked me and I told you this is a randa. (There is) a small randa and there is a big randa, this (tool called in French) varlope (jointing plane), right? They talk like this, to tell you the truth, it's a habit. It is something like [in French] a habit.
|21.||S: maoutils muna: munataya namna
gani? mule: mu Swahili/
O: vyombo/ outillage: outils/ vyombo:
S: outil njo vyombo/
O: vyombo vya kazi/ eh: kwa sababu tukisema vyombo kama vile nilisema hapa mbele: meza: kiti: mulango: nini/
S: na mashine: ni sawa vyombo? sawa?
O: ah: ni chombo: ni: ni: [hesitates] ts: lakini inaitwa ni mashini/ mashini: eh: ni kama vile chombo tuseme/ iko mu: ensemble ya vyombo/
O: ndiyo/ ni mu ensemble ya vyombo/
S: eko muzuri mashini: unawaza iko muzuri? ao mubaya?
O: mashini: ni nzuri/ lakini iko na kinyume kibaya vilevile: ukikosa/
S: namna gani?
O: kwa mufano/ si tunazoea kutumika na mashini kule ku chapu/ tunazoea kutumika na mashini: na mashini: na mashini/ lakini: siku fulani: ao kunatoka kwa mufano vita: ah? mm?
O: moto iko coupé/
O: mashini hawezi kutumika/
O: tutafanya nini sasa?
O: [chuckle] sasa ni mukono/ kuranda na mukono: kupasua: eh?: na mukono: kukata na mukono:
O: tutakuwa wavivu/ tutashindwa/ mm: tutashindwa/
S: na: na unawaza kama bantu: baliisha: baliisha kusahabu: hii makazi ya ...
O: ya mikono? hawasahabu: lakini: watachoka upesi/
S: watachoka upesi/
O: watachoka upesi/ kwa sababu mashini kule: ukiisha kufanya traçage yako: mm? unapima vipimo vyote eh?
O: unaitia ku mashini kwa: ao unatenir: eh? unakamata mikono mivili: unapasua: inapasuwa vizuri/ kila siku: kila siku: kila siku/
O: wakati ule: hauna muchoko hapana/ kwa sababu ni mashini una: unasukuma tu/ mashini inapasula: unasukuma/ unaweza kupasua mbao mia moya na zaidi/
O: kwa kufanya viti: série ya viti: waliviomba eh: douzaines mbili tatu/
O: ni vile/
|21.||S: How do you call outils (tools)
in Swahili, at the shop?
O: Vyombo. [In French] equipment, tools. Vyombo.
S: Tools are vyombo.
O: Vyombo to work with, because, as I did earlier in this conversation,32 we could call a table, a chair, a door, whatever, vyombo.
S: And is a machine something like tools?
O: Yes, it is a tool. It is [hesitates], what can I say? But it is called a machine. Let's say a machine is something like a tool. It belongs to [in French] the ensemble (category) of tools.
O: Yes. It is in the category of tools.
S: Is a machine something good or bad?
O: A machine is good. But it can also be bad33 if you make a mistake.
S: How so?
O: For example, we are used to working with machines there in shop. We are used to working with machines, (always) machines. But some day war may break out, right? Mm?
O: The current is cut off.
O: The machine cannot work.
O: What are we going to do then?
O: [chuckle]. Now it's you hands, work the plane with your hands. Or sawing, right? With you hand, cutting, with your hands.
O: We (will find out then that we) have become lazy. We won't be up to it. Mm, we won't be up to it. S: And do you think that people have forgotten how to do the work...
O: With their hands? They haven't forgotten but they will get tired quickly.
S: The will get tired quickly.
O: They'll get tired quickly. Because with the machine, once you have marked the piece, right. You take all the measures, right?
S: Mm. You put it on the machine, or you hold it using both hands, right? You saw and it will get sawed accurately. Day in, day out.
O: When you do that you won't get tired because, with the machine, you just push. The machine saws, you push. You can saw a hundred boards and more.
O: Making chairs, a series of chairs that was ordered, two or three dozens (of them).
S: That's how it is.
|22.||S: na: mu l'avenir/ munasema namna
gani? mu ...
O: mu wakati itakayokuja/
S: yea/ wakati itakayokuja/ unawaza kama utabakia kule ku chapu: ao mara ingine utafanya kazi yako ya particulier: ya ...
O: mm [chuckle]/ mu avenir/ ma: wakati ile itakayokuja/ hatujui/ kwa sababu: [hesitates] kila kitu kina mwisho wake/ [chuckle]
O: kila kitu kina mwisho wake/
S: hauna na mawazo sasa? ya ...
O: sasa: sijakuwa bado na mpango fulani/ lakini ningalipenda kwa sababu kila muntu anatayarisha: wakati wake itakayokuja: uta: nitakuwa je? eh? watoto wangu watakuwa je?
O: watakuwa je? na mimi nitakuwa je:
O: eh je/ maana yake: comment est-ce que mes enfants seront?
S: ah bon?
O: pendant l'avenir/ moi même d'abord: et mes enfants/
S: oui oui oui oui: C'est ça/ na: utaona nguvu yake ya: utaona namna gani: ya: ya sawa tunasema indépendant/ kuwa indépendant/ ni kusema ku: kutumika kazi yako/
O: kuwa na uhuru/
S: uhuru: kwa uhuru yako:
O: ndiyo/ ile ...
S: sawa mara ingine uta: utaweza kuwa na chapu yako?
O: yangu ao namna gani/ ile: kwanza ni nini? ni kitu: kwa mufano hapa niko natumika/
O: napashwa: kwa hii nusu niko napata/
O: nusu ya feza niko napata: franga/ napashwa kujua kuwa na akiba/ akiba: unakula kidogo: na kidogo ingine: unaweka: eh: kuwa na caisse moya à part/ sababu ile caisse: njo itakuambia avenir/ itakuambia wakati itakayokuja itakuwa namna gani/ siku fulani unasema ah: sasa: napashwa kutumika uhuru/
O: siwezi tena kubakia kule: pourquoi? eh? sababu gani nitabakia kule?
O: nitumike kwanza uhuru/ mm/ basi wakati ule utaja ...
S: uko na watoto ngapi?
O: hapa sasa?
O: niko na watatu/
O: wanaume wawili na moja mwanamuke/
S: na: na bibi yako yee alitoka humu?
O: hapana/ ni wa: Kalemie/
O: ndiyo/ wa Kalemie/
|22.||S: And in the future? How do you
say avenir? In...
O: In the time that will come.
S: Yea, the time that will come. Do you think you will stay there in the shop or perhaps work on your own, as...
O: Mm. [chuckle] In the future, the time that will come. I don't know. Because [hesitates] everything comes to an end (lit. has its end). [chuckle]
O: Everything comes to an end.
S: Don't you have ideas right now.
O: Right now, I don't have a plan yet. But I would like (to do something) because everyone prepares for his future. How will I be?34 How will my children be?
S: Will they be?
O: How will they be? And how will I be?
S: (What is) je?
O: Well, je. It means [in French] how will my children be?
O: [In French] In the future, I myself, and my children.
S: Yes, yes, yes, yes, that's it. And do you foresee that it will be difficult to be, as we say in French, independent. Be independent, in other words, work on you own.
O: (In Swahili it is) uhuru (independence).
O: Have independence.
S: Independence, (have) your independence.
O: Yes. This...
S: Maybe you could have your own shop?
O: How (would I have) my own (shop)? To begin with, what does it involve? It is something - for instance right now I work.
O: I must (live) from the amount I earn.
O: The amount of money I earn. I must know how to save (a part). Savings means, you spend (lit. eat) a little here and there and you put something (away). You must have a reserve. Because that reserve will tell you your future. It will tell you how your future will be. One day you say, now I must work on my own.
O: I can't go on there. Why? Right? Why should I stay there?
S: Mm. I should work on my own. Mm. Well, at that moment you will....
S: How many children do you have?
O: Right now?
O: I have three.
O: Two boys and one girl.
S: And does your wife come from here?
O: No, she is from Kalemie.
O: Yes, from Kalemie.
|23.||S: kumbe ni paka: ni paka kitu
ya: ya kupata feza? hii uhuru?
O: ah: kwa sababu: hakuna ginsi ingine: kwa: humu tu: tuseme tu mu mavilles mukubwa/
O: ao ku mugini tu/ kitu ya kwanza: ni franga/ ukiisha kuwa na franga: utatafuta vyombo vya kazi/ mm? unatafuta vyombo vya kazi: na: inafaa uwe na juhudi/
O: juhidi donc: ni: [hesitates] ts: kupenda kwanza kazi:
O: upende kabisa kutumika: na: enfin: avec foi quoi/ [chuckles]
S: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
O: na roho yote kabisa kabisa/ usichelewe usilale tu:
S: [overlapping] ...?...
O: kulala tu: na kuwaza kwenda kutembea: utakwenda ku match:
O: ah: utakwenda ku cinéma: lakini kazi kwanza: kuacha yote: mbele kufanya madétails/ uwe na juhudi/ d'abord: upate franga/ ya kutosha/ uwe: na vitu ya kuweza kusaidia kwa sababu watu wale watakusaidia: wasichoke/ uwe kwa mufano na kamashini hata kadogo: unaanza na kamashini kadogo: kengine hivi na bintu ya mikono vilevile: ya kusaidia mashini/ kwa sababu ingine: moto haitakuwa/
O: inafaa mutumike polepole: kwa muda: watu wanachoka: ah moto inakuya: wanaanza tena na moteur/
O: eh/ ni vilevile/ kitu kikubwa tu ni nini? kuwa kwanza na franga/ sababu franga: njo utapata yote/ hauna hii: japo unasema: unasema: unasema [chuckle] hauwezi kuarranger na kusema/
O: hautengenezi na kusema: inafaa kulipa kitu: banakupa kitu: unaanza/ unaonyesha mufano: unaweza kusiadiwa/
S: na: [aside, checking the tape] karibu na na mwisho/
|23.||S: So it is just a matter of money,
O: Yes, because there is no other way here, let's say, in the big towns.
O: Or even in a village. The first thing is money. Once you have money you get the tools for your work together. Mm? You get the tools together and then you must have juhudi (dedication).
S: Have what?
O: Juhudi, that is, [hesitates] how shall I say? Love the work, above all.
O: You should really like to work with, well, with faith. [chuckles]
S: Yes. Yes.
O: Really with your whole soul. You should not dawdle, you should not sleep...
S: [overlapping] ...?...
O: Just sleep and think of going out. You may go to a (football) game.
O: You may go to the movies. But work means to leave all that and first attend to [in French] detail. You should be dedicated, above all to earn money to spend. (And) you should have equipment that can help you so that the people who assist you don't get tired. For example should have a machine, even if it is a small one. You start will a small machine and at the same time other things should be done manually to assist the machine. Because it may happen that there is no current.
O: (In that case) you must go on working slowly for a while. People get tired but then the current is back and they start the motor again.
O: Yes, that's how it is. What is the important thing? Above all to have money because if you have money you get everything. You may talk, and talk, and talk [chuckle]. You can't get things done by talking.
O: You are not going to get anything done by talking. You must pay for something, they give it to you, then you begin. If your work is excellent (lit. if you show an example), you may get help.
S: And... [aside, checking the tape] It is almost at the end.
|24.||S: ah: kintu ingine nilitaka kuuliza/
juu ya: unaona namna gani kazi yako inaachana na kazi ya bantu bengine banatumika
mu masociétés par exemple: eh: mu Gécamines eh?
S: wee unapenda hii kazi yako kupita kazi ingine?
O: oui mi minaweza kupenda kazi yangu kwa sababu: kwa mufano mi: minapenda kazi yangu/ sababu gani? ile ilikuwa ni uito wangu/ ilikuwa ni vocation/
S: mm/ na: mina: sasa minawaza ku: ku fasi/ hii fasi ya ...
O: ah bon/ fasi ile natumika na ile ingine/ ndiyo/ ningaliweza kupenda fasi ingine/ kwa mufano kama vile Gécamines/
O: mais: lakini: she tulikuwa na baati/ unaweza kujaribu kwenda kuomba ku Gécamines kutumika kazi lakini/ hawakukubali/
S: mm/ kuba?
O: ku: basi: kukuadmettre kutumika kule/
S: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
O: on vous refuse par exemple de ne pas ...
O: de ne pas de travail/
S: sababu gani?
O: ah: haujui/ unaandika barua ya kuomba kazi kule:
O: banakujibu: hakuna/
S: alafu mara ingine kama uli: kama ulipata kazi: uli: ulipenda kule? kupita humu? ulipenda mu: kutumika mu chapu: eeh/ mukubwa?
O: ah ndiyo/ kwa sababu kwa mufano/ kama vile kule kwa Chenge/ tuseme: wangali wapya/
O: ni watu wapya/ ukiangalia/
O: na: maendeleo yao: iko inakwenda vizuri/
O: inaonekana kwenda vizuri/ kumbe pale pa kuhangaika kwenda huku kwenda huku: tubakie tu/ nazani: ile avenir yao: itakuwa muzuri/
O: na sisi vile vile tutakuwa vizuri kama wengine/ kwa sababu: Gécamines wenyewe: alianza kidogo kidogo/
S: ndiyo/ kumbe wee unawaza kama mutaendelea kama vile/
O: aah/ [chuckle] kwanza tutaendeleamo/ kiisha siku ingine ...
[end of recording]
|24.||S: Ah, there is one thing I wanted
to ask. In your view, how does your work differ from that of people who
work for companies, for example, the Gécamine?
S: Do you like your work better than some other work?
O: Yes, I can like my work because - it just happens that I like my work. Why? This (work) was my calling. It is a vocation.
S: Mm. Actually I was thinking of the place, the place where...
O: I see, the place where I work compared to another. Yes, I could like another place. Something like the Gécamine, for instance.
O: Still, we were lucky. You can try and go to ask for work at the Gécamine. The don't accept you.
S: Mm. Kuba..?35
O: Well, [using a French verb] admit you to work there.
S: Yes. Yes.
O: [in French] For example one refuses...
O: ... to give you work.36
S: Why is that?
O: Ah, I don't know. You write a letter asking for work there.
O: They answer you, there is none.
S: There is none.
S: But if you would get work would you like it there. More than here? Would you like to work in a big shop?
O: Well, yes. Because,37 for example, there at the Chenge shop, they are a new enterprise.
O: They are newcomers, if you look at them.
O: An they are doing well.
O: It seems to go well. So instead of moving about here and there we should stay where we are. I think their (Chenge's) their future looks good.
O: And we'll do well like others did. Because even the Gécamine started little by little.
S: Yes. So you think they will continue like that.
O: Ah [chuckle] first we will go on. Then, some day....
[end of recording]
1 This short first paragraph
is an occasion to comment on features and issues that occur throughout this
text. One is the repetition of both, (parts of) questions and (parts of) answers.
This may look repetitive and tedious in transcript and translation but is a
characteristic of oral exchange I want to preserve in this translation (it is
a rhetorical device similar to call-and-response used by many speakers of Katanga
Swahili even when they address individuals). Perhaps such repetitiveness is
best understood as a means to keep the exchange flowing. Another feature is
the frequent use of mm, an utterance that, depending on length, intonation,
volume and probably a few other characteristics, can express assent, doubt,
surprise, and what not. On the whole, it has two major functions: First, much
like repetition mentioned earlier, is to maintain the flow, and rhythm, of the
conversation. Second, often the mm response it prompted by the other
speaker's intonation (rising, like in a question) or by his using eh?
or mm? (roughly: right?) as a prompt.
2 What comes out as a repetition in the English translation is due to the fact that here and throughout the text Pungwe uses a French phrase first and then adds a gloss in Swahili (or the other way around).
3 I think that Pungwe's response shows that he did he understood my question as referring to school rather than the order.
4 When Mobutu decreed that Congolese had to adopt "authentic" names the brothers Berquin (Barnabé, the painter, and Kanuto, the cabinet-maker) changed theirs to Chenge.
5 "Small fry;" In Lubumbashi the Swahili term is usually pronounced ndakala.
6 This is a gloss for an implosive sound transcribed as ts. It is quite common in Katanga Swahili and can vary in emphasis between my paraphrase and a more casual interjection such as "well."
7 The core meaning of vyombo (sing. chombo) is utensil. I had heard it as a word for a cooking pot, a vessel (or boat) but not for furniture, hence my question. Pungwe's chuckle, I think, signals his awareness of the term's many possible meanings.
8 An alternative translation could be "put it in a crate."
9 He did not understand my question because I had said (and say it again in the next exchange) beko, they (for persons) instead of biko, they (for things).
10 Pungwe took care to come up with this proper term for carver in "good" Swahili, followed by a French gloss. I acknowledge this by repeating the term. This happens more often in this exchange than in others, a sign that Pungwe was aware of my limitations. See also note 2 above and examples further on in this paragraph.
11 The expression I translate as "local" is ya inchi, lit. of the country. Quite likely, Pungwe had the French phrase sculpture indigène in mind.
12 This makes no sense to me because majivu means ashes. But it is possible that he wanted to say majivuno, showing off. In that case he made a distinction between "professional" carving (learned at school), a craft, and "personal" carving (coming from a person's ideas, as he puts it), an art.
13 The term (n)kisi occurs in many languages of the Congo. In Katanga Swahili (probably coming from Luba) it is used especially when multilingual speakers have the French fétiche in mind. But the meaning of "fetish" (apart from being compromised by a long history of mis-use) is much wider, designating all sorts of objects, not only the products of traditional woodcarving we are discussing here.
14 The term Pungwe used for weaving was kusuka. I repeated it because until then I had only heard in the expression kusuka nywele, pleat hair.
15 In Standard Swahili shoka means axe, in Katanga it refers to two similar implements, a hoe and an adz (see below, where women use a shoka to chop wood).
16 Pungwe says mikono, which can mean both, hands and arms. Women's "manual labor" is "handiwork."
17 I repeat the word because Pungwe used, ginsi (jinsi in Standard Swahili), a term I did not know at the time. Visibly this slowed us down in this reflective, sociolinguistic exchange about polite registers of speech. To anticipate an interesting finding from Pungwe's remarks: When he contrasts Lubumbashi Swahili as "impolite" with the variety he learned (see the examples below) this means that the difference he perceives is less one of variety or dialect than of quality and register.
18 I don't think "arguments" is meant here in a narrow sense; what he refers to is something that ethnomedologists called discursive strategies.
19 The word Pungwe uses is makali, a multi-purpose adjective. A dog that bites is makali, so is a sharp knife, or a severe boss.- Here and in the following I come to my limits as a translator: Pungwe not only quotes but performs his examples of Lubumbashi Swahili. He changes grammar and lexicon as well as intonation, accent, even facial expression and body posture to achieve the effect of a certain rudeness (or boorish directness) he considers typical of local speech. His laughter, in which I join him, does not so much ridicule speakers of local Swahili -- later he takes care to avoid that impression -- as it shows amusement and awareness of the theatricality of his own performance.
20 Contrasts lost in translation are muke vs. bibi, for wife, wangu vs. yangu, for the possessive pronoun, atafika vs. atakuya, for she will arrive; atakuya would be atakuja in Standard Swahili (see also yua vs. jua in the preceding example).
21 The terms for wife Pungwe uses, muke vs. bibi in local Swahili invite two comments: First, in Standard Swahili, it should be mke, rather than muke; the syllabic prefix mu-, is a trait of what used to be called Kingwana or Congo Swahili. Second, the (Oxford) Standard Swahili Dictionary has an interesting note on the contrast between mke and bibi: "Used alone, mke means distinctively 'wife' in contrast to mwanamke [woman]." Preference for that term is explained in the entry on bibi: "a term of respectful reference and address to women, now fallen on evil days in some places because of its use to refer to concubines of Europeans," an inconspicuous note behind witch looms a social history of male-female relations at different stages of colonization.
22 To add to the local flavor of his example Pungwe used in the first instance mon cher, a familiar term of address; now it is the equally current dis, translated here as buddy. Both are the target of self-mocking among speakers in Katanga (especially the over-use of mon cher). But familiarity can be false or misplaced and there is correct or appropriate familiarity. The latter is expressed when a person is addressed dis. Like the shift of meaning in bibi (see the preceding note) the semantics of dis reflect colonial history. Africans observed Europeans prefacing statements, requests, or question addressed to equals and subalterns with the French imperative dis, say (my impression was that this was characteristic of Belgian French). In local Swahili, the verb form became a noun, something like "friend;" many letters I saw began with dis wangu, my friend. However, dis is not just a synonym for the equally current rafiki, friend. It is appropriate when two persons are in a relationship of kibengo (a Luba term, see van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:63) of the kind often called a "joking-relationship" by anthropologists.
23 In Swahili it says mwenzangu (one also hears wenzangu), a compound or mwenzi, companion, and -angu, mine. It can be translated as friend or acquaintance; depending on context it can also signify "a person from the same place or the same group I come form" or as "fellow" (one old man may address another one as mzee wenzangu, my fellow old man).
24 There is a reason why we treat asikwende with obvious relish. The negative prefixes asi- is often cited as typical of local speech (especially of the miner's settlements). It probably is one of the few grammatical survivals (most others are lexical) of Fanagalo, the Nguni/Zulu-based work language spoken in the Katanga mines that was replaced by Swahili.
25 Citoyen(ne) was the obligatory term of address under Mobutu. People obliged but, in ways that could not be faulted by guardians of political correctness, citoyen took on subtle meanings; it could be used mockingly or even as an insult (which, I think, Pungwe wants to convey here).
26 In the text we have here one of the few examples of code-switching in the narrow sense that an entire sentence is in French, not just a word or a brief phrase.
27 At the time 1 Zaire (100 Makuta) was worth 2 US Dollars. The prices were, in a small bar, about 10M for Simba (light beer), 18-20 M for Tembo (dark and strong beer), and about 8-10 M for soft drinks.
28 I was tempted to side with Léon until I figured out that mushinji was Pungwe's pronunciation of (with a palatalized /d/) of mshindi, a winner.
29 Literally it says: Also, even we (i.e. for us), there are kinds of Swahili they use there that we find difficult. A problem is the collective marker ma- (rather than vi-) prefixed to Swahili. If this was intentional the phrase may have to be translated as something like "groups of Swahili speakers."
30 The contrast posited by Pungwe between kuongozana and kusikilizana reflects the common distinction between languages and vehicular languages.
31 What Pungwe pronounces as sikusudi must be sikuzuli in Standard Swahili, lit. I should not lie to you.
32 See above paragraph 7 and note 7.
33 Pungwe says that a machine can have a kinyume kibaya, derived from mjume, "a skilled workman" according to the Standard Swahili dictionary.
34 Pungwe uses the interrogative particle je, the meaning of which I did not understand. My impression is that it does not (or very seldom) occur in local Swahili. This explains the exchange that follows.
35 I did not understand the verb kubali Pungwe used.
36 Here Pungwe runs into difficulties with French.
37 the "because" seems to make little sense here unless it is elliptic for "but I don't work there because.".
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