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ISSN: 1570-0178

Volume 2, Issue 7 (6 June 2000)
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The history of Zaire as told and painted by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu in conversation with Johannes Fabian

 

Introduction

First Session, Part 1

First Session, Part 2

Second Session, Part 1

Second Session, Part 2

Third Session, Part 1

Third Session, Part 2

 

Fourth Session

Third Session, Part 2

TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE
Third Session of November 12, 1974
Narrative 3 		TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE
Third Session of November 12, 1974
Explanations 3
1.
F: ndiyo/ ni kusema: tuli: maliza: arisi: ya histoire du Zaire: sawa wee unaona wee: Tshibumba/ mais: sawa vile tulifanya mara ingine: niko: narudia na: maquestions kiloko kiloko tu: ya:
T: ya kuuliza:
F: madétails/
T: eeh/
F: sawa hapa sasa: tunaangaria: numéro soixante: [pausing] aaah: numéro: [rummaging] acha ...?... numéro:
T: mm/
F: soixante trois: mm?
T: ah bon/
F: conflit Kasavubu na Lumumba/ [Painting 64a] mm?
T: ahah/
F: bon: kumbe vile tunaona: Kasavubu: Kasavubu: yee iko na uniforme:
T: ile ilikuya: tenue officielle/ c'est que sababu alikuwa: président ya république: en même temps: kama: nani: wa magistrature:
F: mm/
T: alipashwa avwale ile/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: pa Lumumba: ...?...
T: Lumumba: aliweza: anavwala costume/ sawa vile alikuwa pre: nani: premier ministre/
F: mm/
T: bale ni bapeuple/ ile ni ma: ma: mapartis politiques inyee tulikuwa nayo/
F: aah/ Abako:
T: Abako: CRA:
F: CRA c'est: njo nini?
T: CRA: non siwezi na minafahamu muzuri kwa lakini/
F: MNC?
T: MNC eh? PNP eh?
F: PNP njo nini: ma: unajua maana yake?
T: apana: sijue tena maana yake yote ile/
F: Atcar?
T: Atcar: Atcar ni: ts: association de Tshokwe: ts: de Tshokwe eh?
F: mm/
T: tuna na: na ile inaendela sifahamu muzuri/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ bon: na Fedeka/
F: Fedeka?
T: mm/ c'est que ilikuya: Atcar: Fedeka: Balubakat/ njo ilianza kuexister: ii kipande ya: Shaba/
F: ya Shaba/
T: ya Katanga eeh/
F: naona bale bantu bana...?..beba:
T: ile ni mamvuli: parapluies/
F: parapluies?
T: eeh/ bon: ile ni nyota shita:
F: dra: drapeau ya:
T: drapeau ya nyota shita: ilikuwa sawa niliisha kuelezea ka makati ingine: six étoiles: sawa six provinces/
F: mm/
T: ile nyota munene: ni: unité/
F: mm/ bon/ conflit/
T: conflit: ni kisilani:
F: mais beko be: devant le peuple?
T: devant le peuple eh/
F: balibishana devant le peuple?
T: balibishana mbele ya ba: non: abakubishana: c'est que sawa vile alikuwa premier ministre: ni Kasavubu mwenyewe alisemaka mbele ya bapeuple/
F: mm/
T: asema kuanzia leo: Lumumba ana tena: premier ministre apana/
F: mm/
T: sasa bapeuple balishutuka/
F: mm/
T: nayee alisindikaka: nayee alikwendaka ku radio: nayee anasema vilevile kama: Kasavubu nayee: ana: chef de l'état/
F: oui/
T: mais suivant constitution: premier ministre akuwa na kintu ya kusema hapana/ balifwata mambo ya chef de l'état/
F: aah/
T: mm/
F: maneno sasa tuko na version ingine: [Painting 64b]
T: ah bon/
F: mufano ingine ya ii tableau/
T: ni paka namna moja tu/
F: [chuckles] conflit/
T: ata inaachana: mais namna moja: ni paka:
F: ma:
T: conflit tu/
F: nani: minaona: Lumumba anav: vwala costume ingine:
T: costume: c'est que ii ni: non en couleur/
F: mm/
T: ile ilikuya en couleur/
F: juu ya non en couleur: haukukuwa na couleur?
T: c'est que: non non/ naliweza tu kufanya vile: kwa kusema nitengeneze: mawazo ingine/
F: mawazo gani?
T: ni kusema nitengeneze tu/
F: aah/
T: sawa minafanyaka couleur ingine ya kuachana: ingine couleur ingine: yashipo: ya kuachana tuseme vile/ ...?...
F: ah alafu ile: ile nyota alikuwa naye/ hapa [point to medal worn by Lumumba]/
T: nyota? nyota sawa vile alikuwa na drapeau six étoiles: na mi nazania mi niliweza kuweza nalikuweka ile mawazo juu ya kutengeneza tableau/
F: ilikuwa sawa décoration ao?
T: sawa décoration mm/
F: mm/ na hapa tunaona Abako:
T: tena peko Abako: PNP:
F: PSA:
T: PSA: parti solidaire Africain: ilikuwa ya Gizenga:
F: aah/
T: ahah/
F: na CRA?
T: na CRA: ilikuwa kama ya
F: hii....?...
T: Kamitatu:
F: Cartel/
T: Cartel: Cartel ilikuya ya: Sendwe eh?
F: aah/
T: aah/ Sendwe Janson:
F: [pointing to sphere in lower right corner] njo nini hapa?
T: ile non: ii ni: nani: kibambazi: ya mu stade/
F: aah/
T: ile ni ningazi1/
F: ningazi/
T: eeh/ 		1.
F: Alright. So we finished the story of the history of Zaire as you, Tshibumba, see it. Now, as we did the other time, I am going to go back to some detailed questions...
T: ...questions to ask.
F: About detail.
T: I see.
F: So, here we are looking at number sixty [pausing], number sixty [rummaging] -- just a minute, number...
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Sixty-three1, right?
T: Oh, alright.
F: Conflict between Kasavubu and Lumumba [Painting 64a: The Kasavubu-Lumumba Conflict]. Right?
T: Yes.
F: Fine, so what we see here is Kasavubu, wearing a uniform.
T: That was his official dress, he was the president of the Republic. Had he been a magistrate...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...he would have had to wear the appropriate clothes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And Lumumba there?
T: Lumumba, being Prime Minister, could wear a suit.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And there are the people. Also shown are the political parties we had at that time.
F: I see, the Abako...
T: Abako, CRA.
F: What does CRA mean?
T: I don't really know.
F: MNC?
T: And there were MNC and PNP, right?
F: And what is PNP, do you know what it means?
T: No, I don't know the meaning of all these [abbreviations].
F: Atcar?
T: Atcar, Atcar, wait, that was the Association of the Tshokwe, the Tshokwe, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: No, the rest I don't really know.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. Anyhow, then [there was] Fedeka.
F: Fedeka?
T: Mm-hmm. What it was, Atcar, Fedeka, and Balubakat coexisted in this part of Shaba.
F: Of Shaba.
T: Of Katanga, yes.
F: I see those people carrying...?
T: Those are umbrellas.
F: Umbrellas?
T: Yes. Alright, those are the six star.
F: Of the flag of...
T: The six-starred flag. This was as I explained to you the other time: six stars to represent the six provinces.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The big star stands for unity.
F: Mm-hmm. Fine. Conflict.
T: Conflict is kisilani.2
F: So they stand before the people?
T: Before the people, yes.
F: Did the quarrel in front of the people.
T: Did they quarrel in front of -- no, they did not really fight. It was just that Kasavubu declared before the people...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...that, as of that day, Lumumba was dismissed as prime minister.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The people couldn't believe it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And Lumumba put up resistance. He went on the radio and declared that Kasavubu was no longer head of state.
F: I see.
T: But, according to the constitution, the prime minister had no power whatsoever to make such an announcement. So they sided with the head of state.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Now we have another version of this painting here [Painting 64b].
T: Ah, yes.
F: Another version of that painting.
T: It's just the same.
F: [chuckles] Conflict.
T: Although it is different, it has the same subjec
T: the conflict.
F: The matter of the...
T: Just the conflict.
F: I see that Lumumba now wears a different suit.
T: The suit -- that's because it is not in color. painting was.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [In the other painting] it was in color.
F: About this one not being in color -- had you run out of colors?
T: No, no, I could have done it in color. I just wanted to work out a different idea.
F: What kind of idea?
T: Let's say, I wanted to paint it that way.
F: I see.
T: I used colors in the other one in order to make it different. One in color, the other not. Let's say [it was] to make them different.
F: I see. But this star [Lumumba] is wearing [on his suit] here.
T: The star? The star is the same that appeared on the six-starred flag. I thought I could put it here to express the idea [behind it], to compose3 the painting.
F: So it was a kind of decorative element?
T: A decorative element, mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm. And here we see Abako.
T: There is Abako and also PNP...
F: PSA...
T: PSA, parti solidaire Africain. That was Gizenga's [faction].
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: And CRA?
T: And CRA, that was...
F: This one ...?...
T: Kamitatu's.
F: [And then] Cartel.
T: Cartel. Cartel was Sendwe's, right?
F: I see.
T: Yes, Sendwe Janson.
F: [pointing to a sphere in lower right corner] And what is this here?
T: That -- no, that belongs to a wall in the stadium.
F: I see.
T: These are stairs.
F: Stairs.
T: Yes.
2.
F: bon/ vile tunaendelea: ku: tableau: ah: numéro: ee: soixante quatre: ni kusema: arrestation yake à Lodja/ [Painting 65: Lumumba Is Arrested at Lodja]
T: à Lodja/ ah:
F: Lodja: mu Kasai kule/
T: kule: nazania unafahamu kule eh? [chuckles]
F: mm/
T: bon arrestation à Lodja: ni kusema makati ile alikimbiaka: alifungwaka sawa vile nalikuelezea/
F: ndiyo/
T: wee utaweza kuniuliza mambo unaona ndani: utaweza kuuliza na mingi/
F: na eko na wa: Peugeot: quatre cent trois/
T: Peugeot: quatre cent et trois: ni mamarques ile ya zamani/quatre cent et trois: ata kama unoana modèle yake sawa quatre cent quatre: ni kwa kuonyesha tu kama ni Peugeot nalifanya/
F: ni kusema ilikuwa karibu: enfin: ndani ya mugini ao?
T: ilikuwa ndani ya mugini/
F: na bale basoldats beko banani? ba:
T: ANC/
F: ANC/
T: Armée Nationale Congolais [sic]/
F: aah/
T: Congolaise ou bien?
F: mais nani alimubamba kule?
T: kule kumubamba kule?
F: mm/
T: nazania: kufwata vile balisema: ilikuya colonel Tshatshi: njo ali: balitumaka kwenda kumubamba kule/ sawa vile ilikuwa mission/ hawezi nakatala/ hatuwezi: paka kutoka kwenda/
F: mission/ ya:
T: sa: ili: balimu: commissioner/ sawa vile ata wee nduku yako: hata o: kama uko militaire: banakutuma kwenda bamba baba yako: utabamba/
F: mm/
T: mm/ 		2.
F: Fine, so we go on and come to painting number sixty-four, that is, to [Lumumba] being arrested in Lodja [Painting 65: Lumumba Is Arrested at Lodja].
T: At Lodja, yes.
F: Lodja, down in the Kasai.
T: That's where it is, I think you know the region, right? [chuckles]
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright. Arrest at Lodja. It's about the time when he fled from his [house] arrest [in Kinshasa] as I explained to you.
F: Yes.
T: You can ask me about the things you see in this [painting]. You can ask many questions.
F: So Lumumba has a Peugeot 403.
T: The Peugeot 403 is one of the old models. But about the 403 -- even if you see another model, for instance, the 404, you would recognize that I painted a Peugeot.
F: It seems [that Lumumba was arrested] near the town, right?
T: No, it was in the town.
F: And who were the soldiers?
T: ANC.
F: ANC.
T: The Congolese National Army.
F: I see.
T: It is Congolese, right?4
F: But who actually made the arrest?
T: Made the arrest there?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I think -- and here I follow what was being talked about -- it was Colonel Tshatshi. He was sent to arrest Lumumba there. It was like a mission and he could not refuse to go. You cannot refuse, you just take off and go there.
F: What kind of mission was this?
T: He had orders. If you are a military man and they give you an order to arrest a relative, even your own father, you'll do it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
3.
F: arrestation à Lodja: sasa tuko tunafika mu soixante: tableau soixante cinq: [Painting 66: Lumumba Is Brought before the People] tunaona: [reading from painting] Lumumba devant le peuple au stade ex-Baudoin premier/
T: bon/
F: ni kuisha: kish: nani: kiisha ku: kumubamba/
T: c'est ça/ kisha kumubamba ku Lodja/
F: mm/
T: balimuleta sasa: ku Kinshasa/ sawa vile nalikuambia kama mambo ilipitaka kule: ni mambo ya bakubwa/ eeh?
F: mm/
T: ni kweli Lumumba alifungwa sawa na ii nkamba ile: chemise: koti ile baliisha kutosha: anabakia na chemise: anatosha chemise ndani ya pantalon: anababakia tu:
F: juu ya nini?
T: wazi/ kutosha chemise ndani ya pantalon?
F: ...?...
T: ni bule tu/
F: mm/
T: sawa hivi kama uko ni kufungwa: utaweza kutosha bilatu: na ...?... mikulu bule: na: ile: na bale bamilitaires banashimama: ba...?... bunduki ku mikono: na ku mukongo: ile ni: tribune: ku mukongo kuko batu/
F: mm/
T: aah/
F: na hapa tunaona: mapublicités/
T: Belga: Martini: AMI: Agence Maritime Internationale: Gallic: Coca Cola: ni: mapublicités/
F: mapublicités ...?... mu stade/
T: mm/
F: mm/ sasa minaona ile: nani: ko:
T: bon/
F: fia yabo/
T: c'est ça/
F: inaachana/
T: ii ni: justice militaire/
F: justice militaire/
T: eeh/ bale ni baPM/ Police Militaire/
F: haba?
T: hapana: bale uliona kule/ .../...ya mwisho/
F: ah bale bale: tuliona ku Lodja:
T: ni PM/
F: PM/
T: bon:
F: Police Militaire/
T: sasa hii: ni justice militaire/
F: na nani: na kofia yabo:
T: na kofia yabo/
F: inaachana/
T: inaachana/
F: eyo/
T: eheh/
F: mm/ sasa tu bakukre: répresenter devant le peuple: sawa vile unasema:
T: bon/ ilikuwa sawa vile mbele ya bapeuple: mais sawa nikukuambia kama ni mambo ya bakubwa ilipitaka/ na shee bengine tunafahamu vile ilipitaka/ mais: ni nambo ya bakubwa/ niliisha kuelezea lakini/ mm/ ni mambo mingi ilipitaka kule/ c'est kulikuwa bakubwa mingi kule/
F: ku stade?
T: ku stade eeh/ 		3.
F: [So that was] arrest at Lodja, now we come to painting sixty-five [Painting 66: Lumumba Is Brought before the People]. We see [reading from painting] Lumumba before the people in the former Baudouin I stadium.
T: Alright.
F: This is after he was arrested.
T: That's right, after he was arrested in Lodja.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So after arresting him at Lodja they brought Lumumba to Kinshasa. But as I told you before, what happened there is one of those things that concern the big shots, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Fact is, that Lumumba was tied with a rope. They had taken off his coat and his shirt was hanging out of his pants. That is how he was standing [there]...
F: Why that?
T: For everyone to see. Why they pulled the shirt from his pants?
F: ...?...
T: It was just one of those things.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: If you are locked up you will have to take off your shoes and go barefoot. At any rate, there are soldiers standing next to him, guns in their hands, and behind them there is the grand stand where the people are.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And here we see commercial signs.
T: Belga, Martini, AMI, International Sea Agents, Gallic, Coca Cola -- these are commercial signs.
F: So there were commercial sign in the stadium?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm. Now I see -- what do you call them? -- hel...
T: Right...
F: Their helmets.
T: That's right.
F: They are different.
T: These belong to the Justice Militaire.
F: Justice Militaire.
T: Yes, those others were PM, military police.
F: These here?
T: No, the ones you saw on the last painting.
F: Ah, the ones we saw in Lodja.
T: They were PM.
F: PM.
T: Right.
F: Police Militaire.
T: The ones [you see here] are Justice Militaire.
F: And their helmets...
T: Their helmets...
F: Are different.
T: Are different.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: Mm-hmm. So Lumumba is being presented to the people, as you said.
T: Right. It happened before the people but, as I told you, what happened there is the big shots' affair. Some among us know what happened but it's something that concerns the big shot. Lots of things happened there, because many big shots where there in the stadium.
F: In the stadium?
T: In the stadium, yes.
4.
F: tena: calvaire d'Afrique/ [Painting 67a and b: African Calvary] tuko na mbili/
T: calvaire d'Afrique: muko na mbili: ya rangi ya kuachana/
F: eh/
T: en couleur: na yashipo en couleur/ iko sawa foto anabeba madame: madame Fabian alinikamata:
F: mm/
T: alisema atakamata en couleur: na atakamata ya mu noir/
F: mm/
T: njo vile ni minafanya/ nafanya: en couleur: na en noir/ bon/ ni paka pamoja tu/ kama uko na maulizo: nitakujibu/
F: ndiyo/ kumbe tunaona: ni paka: Luano:
T: ni Luano/
F: kiwanza ya:
T: ya: ii ni tour de contrôle: ile ni avion: ya Sabena/
F: mm/
T: bon: ni nkamba ile: haba: ni ba: bantu ya sûreté: sawa vile balikwenda kumupeleka sababu: kutuma kwa kintu yote: yapashwa sûreté ajue/ sawa sasa apa umu tu ni CND: yapashwa ijue/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: na beko gendarmes: bagendarmes de:
T: bagendarmes: ya Katanga/
F: ya Katanga/
T: eeh/
F: aah/ naona croisettes/
T: troisettes [sic]: iko ile nani: mukub: ile: ata pa drapeau ya Katanga uliona? zette [sic]/
F: bon: pa fasi ya ma: nyota: balikuwa na croisettes ku ma:
T: bo banakuwa na croisettes aah: na croi:
F: mabega/
T: aah ni vile tuseme/
F: mm/ nayee anafanana na Tshombe/ [pointing] huyu/
T: apana/
F: mm/
T: sawa hii wakati balimuletaka yee: Tshombe akukuyake yee apa hapana/
F: hapana/
T: Tshombe alikuwa mu safari/ huyu alikuyaka kule alikuyaka Kibwe: Munongo: njo balipatikana kule/
F: mm/ 		4.
F: Then comes African Calvary [Painting 67a and b: African Calvary]. We have two versions.
T: You have two [paintings of] African Calvary. The difference is the color.
F: Yes.
T: One in color, the other not. This is like the photographs Mrs. Fabian took of me.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: She said that she would photograph me in color as well as in black [and white].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And that's what I did. I painted (one) in color and (one) in black (and white). Alright. It's the same thing. If you have questions, I'll answer.
F: Yes. So we see Luano [airport].
T: It's Luano.
F: The airport.
T: This is the control tower, and there is the Sabena plane.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright, [Lumumba is tied up with] this rope and those are agents of the sûreté.They went to fetch him because they are always sent whenever there is something, the sûreté must know about it. Nowadays we have the CND that is charged with gathering intelligence.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And those are gendarmes of...
T: Katanga gendarmes.
F: Katanga.
T: Yes.
F: Ah, I see the croisettes [on the shoulder pieces of the gendarmes].
T: Troisettes [sic], they represent copper ingots, the ones you saw on the flag of Katanga. Zette [sic].
F: Right, instead of stars they had croisettes on their...
T: They had croisettes -- ah, croi [that's the correct word].5
F: ...on their shoulders.
T: Yes, that's how it was.
F: Mm-hmm. [One of those agents] looks like Tshombe. This one.
T: No.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: When they brought in Lumumba, Tshombe was not here in Lubumbashi.
F: He wasn't.
T: He was travelling. The ones who were there were Kibwe and Munongo, they were the ones who met [Lumumba].
F: Mm-hmm.
5.
na: tena: mu tableau soixante sept: ni kufa kwake/ [Painting 68: The Deaths of Lumumba, Mpolo, and Okito]
T: bon/
F: Lumumba/ sawa wee ulisema: uliniambia madétails nazani:
T: kufwa kwake/
F: [pointing] unité/ damu inatoka/
T: damu inatoka/ inazambalala2 /
F: inazangalala [sic]: banasema Bob Denard: alimuua/
T: Bob Denard alimuuaka/
F: nayee alikuwa nani? Bob Denard?
T: alikuwa mercenaire ya Katanga/
F: mercenaire/
T: eeh alikuwa mercenaire/ sasa yee alianza kutumikia Katanga/
F: mm/ na Okito: na Mpolo?
T: na Mpolo na Okito: sawa balikuya naye vilevile: baliweza ?apa kuwawa/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: balikuwa banani?
T: Mpolo: puisque: eh: Mpolo alikuwaka: alikuwa militaire ya ANC/
F: mm/
T: ...?... kama: alikuwa na grade gani: shiwezi najua/
F: na Okito vilevile?
T: Okito vilevile/
F: mm/ kama iko ga: wapi: mi sione iko mu brousse?
T: ile fasi?
F: mm/
T: mina: mi kwa mawazo yangu ni ndani ya nyumba/ alafu sasa minafanya juu ya kuonyesha: fasi alikufia/ sababu kama naonyesha ndani ya nyumba: macouleurs: itakuya: ts faible/
F: mm/
T: aitakuya muzuri eeh/
F: mm/ kumbe uliweka wingu/
T: eeh/ aina wingu mais: ni kutengeneza tu kwa: kwa tableau tuseme/
F: mm/
T: na misalaba tatu ile uanona kule: c'est que ni idée yangu: sababu mi kwa kufwata histoire yake: minafwataka: naonaka: kama Lumumba alikuwa sawa Yezu/
F: mm/
T: alikufa tu maana moja na Yezu/ Yezu alikufa: katikati ya bantu tatu: ya bantu mbili/ nayee alikufa katikati ya bantu mbili/ alifungwa vilevile nayee alifungwa/ ilikuwa tu pamoja/ 		5.
And then painting sixty-seven: [Lumumba's] death [Painting 68: The Deaths of Lumumba, Mpolo, and Okito].
T: Alright.
F: Lumumba. I think you [already] told me about the details...
T: [of] his death.
F: [pointing] Unity [written in] the blood that flows.
T: The blood flows and spreads.
F: It spreads. They say it was Bob Denard who killed him.
T: Bob Denard killed him.
F: Who was he, this Bob Denard?
T: He was a Katanga mercenary.
F: A mercenary.
T: Yes, he was a mercenary working for Katanga.
F: Mm-hmm. And Okito and Mpolo?
T: Mpolo and Okito, they too were killed in this place.
F: Who were they?
T: Mpolo was a member of the Congolese National Army.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But I don't know what his rank was.
F: And Okito also?
T: Okito also.
F: Mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm. Where is this scene? I don't recognize this, is it out in the bush?
T: The place?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: In my thoughts it was inside a house. But now I did it this way in order to make the death more visible. Were I to present the scene inside, the colors would not come out and it would not be as impressive.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It would not come out well.
F: Mm-hmm. So you put it in a landscape.
T: Yes. It's not a landscape, let's just say it was a matter of composing the picture.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And the three crosses you see there, that is my idea. Because when I followed his history, I saw that Lumumba was like Jesus.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He died the same way Jesus did. Jesus died it was between three, or rather two others. [Lumbumba] also died between two people. And he was tied up the way Jesus was. It was just the same.
6.
F: mm/ bon: mwisho ya: ngambo ya gani: ya [rummaging] Lumumba: kiisha tuliendelea: na ile ingine: nafwata/ ni kusema: turudie ku Katanga/ [Painting 69: The Deaths of the Innocent Children]
T: bon/
F: sasa tunasem: tunaona: paka ma: mu: tableau soixante huit: la mort des innocents/ innocents: tunaona mumbunda: mampala: bulalo:
T: bon/
F: na wanamuke:
T: na bitunga: ile: ya kichwa:
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: beko banakimbia?
T: banakimbia mvita/
F: kwenda wapi?
T: sasa banakwenda mu ma: bengine banakwenda kwa Kanyakaa/ ku mugini moja: kwa chefu moya hivi/
F: mm/
T: kule balikimbiliaka/ bengine banakwenda mu pori/
F: mm/
T: ilikuwa mateso ya kila mufano tu/
F: be: balikuwa bantu ya kila kabila?
T: balikuwa bantu ya kila kabila ya Katanga/
F: bon/ sasa ulisema: mwanamuke ingine: batoto yabo ilikuwa:
T: kama anabeba mutoto:
F: ilikuwa m: buzito:
T: bon kama anaona fasi anafichama: anasikia masashi inalia: mutoto anaanza kulia: bataweza kamata mutoto anamutupa hata chini/ yee anakwenda/ ou bien: pa kupita pa kilalo pale: mutoto kama anapita kulia: anaona buzhito: anatosha mutoto: anatupa mu maji mule/ yee anaanza:
F: kuua batoto yabo?
T: mutoto yake mwenye kuzala/ anatosha tu kikwembe hivi: anafungula: anatupa ndani ya maji/
F: ile uliisha kuona: na mecho yako?
T: ile ilikuwa mambo ya kweli/ bale baliona/ na mafoto: balikamata bengine/
F: sasa ya intitulé: ba balif: ma: mafoto balikamata?
T: bengine balikamata foto/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/
F: ilio: ilionekana wapi?
T: mais: apana/ sikuone/
F: mm/
T: mais ili: kulikamatikwa foto: ilikuwa bitu mingi tu/
F: mais: juu ya intitulé yake/ des innocents/ mort des innocents/
T: mm/
F: kusema nini: mort des innocents?
T: njo kusema: lufu ya bamalaika: c'est que muntu: ajue maneno: mais anakufa tu bule/ mm? muntu yee hapana kujua maneno: mais yee anakufa: bule/
F: ni sawa: sawa bantu banasumbulia juu ya ile mambo: banasema mort des innocents? banasema nini?
T: mimi: njo minawaza:
F: eeh/
T: nawaza ile mawazo ya batoto kidogo/
F: mm/
T: mutoto:
F: mm/
T: sawa mutoto unabeba/
F: mm/
T: ajue mambo/
F: mm/
T: eh? ni muntu tu ashikie ni ile uko nasema/ na mvita inye kule ilianza: yee lwake ajue hapana/ sasa: anashutuka tu: anatupa mu maji sema kufwa/ c'est que ni mort des innocents/ c'est que hana na maneno/ ajue ile maneno ata/
F: mm/ très bien/ alafu bantu banasumbulia tena juu ya ile mambo?
T: bansumbuliaka kila mara/ kila mara beko nasumbulia: bengine beko nasagaa: bengine...?...
F: banasema tu:
T: mambo ya mastajabu sana/
F: ile ile wakati banamuke baliua:
T: eeh/ bengine: nazania bengine s: siku nalifanya ii tableau: tulikuwa na banamuke bengine kwangu kule: balisema kama: ts mi shiwezi nafanya vile/
F: mm/
T: minasema utafanya: kama lufu inaisha kuwa karibu: utafanya tu/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ ni sawa/ 		6.
F: Mm-hmm. Alright. So we covered that angle of Lumumba's story. Then we went on with that other [painting] that follows. In other words, let's go back to Katanga [Painting 69: The Deaths of the Innocent Children].
F: Now we see in the painting sixty-eight the death of the innocent. The innocent. We see the smoke stack and the slag heap, and a bridge.
T: Right.
F: And women...
T: ... carrying these baskets on their heads.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: Are they are fleeing?
T: They are fleeing from the war.
F: Where are they going?
T: Some go to Kanyakaa, to a village [named after] a chief.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's where they fled. Others take to the bush.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There was suffering of every imaginable kind.
F: Did they belong to all ethnic groups?
T: They belonged to every ethnic group in Katanga.
F: Alright. Now, you said that some women -- their children were...
T: Some women carried their child.
F: It was a burden.
T: Alright, [this woman] looked for a place to hide, the bullets where whistling and the child begins to cry. It got so far she would throw the child on the ground and run away. Or, when she went by the bridge there and the child would cry too much she would realize that the child was a burden, she would take it off [her back] and throw it there into the water. She would...
F: They killed their own children?
T: The very child she had given birth to. She would untie it from the wrap she was carrying it in and throw it into the water.
F: Did you see this with your own eyes?
T: This was something that really happened. Some people saw it, and others took photographs.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes.
F: Where did this happen?
T: Well, I did not actually see it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But photographs were taken, lots of things happened.
F: But, what about the title [of the picture]: Death of the Innocent?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: What does it mean "Death of the innocent?"
T: It means that it was the death of angels: a human being who does not understand [what is happening] and meets a senseless death.
F: Was it that people, when they were talking about this event, would call it "Death of the innocent," or what did they say?
T: [No,] it's me, I thought it up.
F: I see.
T: I had this idea of the small children.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: A child.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: As you carry a child...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... who doesn't understand anything.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Right? It's a person who does not understand what you are saying. And when this war there started, it did not understand. Now [the mother] was overwhelmed, she just threw [the child] into the water: "Die." That is the death of the innocent. She did not understand what was happening.6
F: Mm-hmm, but people are still talking about this affair?
T: They talk about it all the time. They talk about it all the time. Some express their amazement, others...
F: They just talk [about it]...
T: ... [others say that] it was something terrible.
F: The time when women killed...
T: Yes. I think others -- on the day when I painted this picture there were some women at my house there and they said: "I could never do a thing like this."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: "You would do it," I said, "when death comes close, you are just going to do it."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, that's how it is.
7.
F: sasa: eh: numéro: soixante neuf: [Painting 70: Katanga Soldiers Shooting People in Jadotville]
T: bon/
F: ni: les Balubakat: à Jadotville/ [Recording interrupted] tena juu ya tu: ....?...hapa/
T: bon/
F: ...?... Jadotville: ulisema k: kama balikuwa: balikuwa tu baLuba ya:
T: ya Katanga/
F: ya Katanga: mais mwenye kuk: mwenye kukala:
T: mu Jadotville/
F: na bo balifanya: ilikuwa mu: mu mwaka gani?
T: nawaza ilikuwa mu soixante deux/
F: mu soixante deux?
T: mu soixante deux oui/ soixante deux/ puisque soixante trois ilikuwa fin ya sécession ya Katanga/
F: c'est ça/ ni bo baliweka drapeau ya Congo/
T: drapeau:
F: juu ya kuonyesha: she tuna:
T: kama tunakatala ile mambo/ atupende ile mambo ya drapeau ya Katanga/ sawa vile drapeau ya Katanga: kule iko ni ku centre: ya Likasi/
F: c'est ça/ hapa ni mu avenue Sanga/
T: avenue baSanga/
F: oui/
T: eheh/
F: na:
T: kule ya avenue Basanga oui/
F: [goes to door and tells children to make less noise, pause] di: muachie makelele eh? ah: kama baachie makelele ...?...
T: mm/
F: bon/
T: mm/
F: eh/ tulisema tena: mauniformes: ya ma: na ile foulard rouge: ilikuwa tu ya baKangais ...?...
T: ilikuwa baKatangais: na ile tenue: ni ya bapoliciers/
F: bapoliciers/
T: eeh/
F: na ile motokari inachoma:
T: ni tembo: ni tembo/ sawa vile ilikuwa murefu eh?
F: oui/
T: apa njo ilikuwa ntundu yulu/
F: na tundu yulu:
T: sasa kama inapita: tunasema tembo/
F: tembo [chuckles]/
T: ilitoka tangu: ni ilikuwa ya baBelges: baliacha eh?
F: baBelges baliacha?
T: ya temps colonial ya:
F: eyo/
T: njo baliachaka/ siku ya le trente juin: ni ile njo ilitembeaka/
F: ahah/
T: eeh/ 		7.
F: Now number sixty-nine [Painting 70: Katanga Soldiers Shooting People in Jadotville].
T: Fine.
F: It is [about] the Balubakat in Jadotville. [Recording interrupted] So then this here ....?...
T: Alright.
F: ...?... Jadotville. You said that they were Luba from...
T: ...from Katanga.
F: From Katanga, but they were living in ...
T: ... Jadotville.
F: And they did -- what was the year?
T: I think it was in '62.
F: In '62?
T: in '62, yes. '62, because in '63 the Katanga secession was over.
F: That's it, and those people were flying the flag of the united Congo.
T: The flag.
F: Because they wanted to show: We...
T:... we are against this affair [the secession], we don't like the Katangese flag. The Katanga flag was in the center of the town of Likasi
F: Right, the scene is on Sanga Avenue.
T: The avenue of the Sanga.
F: Yes.
T: Right.
F: And...
T: [It is] there on Basanga Avenue, yes.
F: [goes to door and tells children to make less noise, pause] Listen, stop the noise. If they would only stop the noise ...?...
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Alright.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Well, then we said about the uniforms, those with the red scarf, they belonged to the Katangese, right?
T: They were Katangese, and it was the uniform of the police.
F: The police.
T: Yes.
F: And what about that vehicle there which is burning?
T: That was tembo, the elephant. Because it was big, right?
F: Yes.
T: And it had this nozzle up there.
F: A nozzle up there.
T: We used to call it tembo whenever it came by.
F: Elephant [chuckles].
T: It went back to the time of the Belgians, they left is, right?
F: The Belgian left it?
T: [It was left] from colonial times.
F: I see.
T: They had left it behind. It used to be driven around on June 30, Independence day.
F: Aha.
T: Yes.
8.
F: donc septante: septante: [Painting 71: The Monster of the Secession] sawa ni: tulisimama mu septante: non: mu soixante neuf: sasa septante ile mammouth/ ile:
T: mammouth eh:
F: baliyenga mu: Comekat?
T: mu Comekat ya Likasi:
F: ...?...
T: sawa vile nilikuambia kama uneanda njia ya L: ya Kolwezi: uku ngambo: utaona ile: atélier tuseme/
F: mm/
T: aah/
F: mammouth/ iliandikwa juu: wee uli: uliisha kuona na mecho yako?
T: ile mammouth?
F: ah/
T: mi nilikwendaka kuona pale beko nayenga/ sawa b: sawa vile: baba alikuwa mu Likasi: mu Likasi mulikuwa vita kidogo/
F: mm/
T: tunaanzaka kutembea/
F: mm/
T: na benzetu: shee hatukujue asema: aba ni baKatangais: aba ni bahuku: she tulikuwa barafiki tu: batoto kidogo/ tuko nakwenda: mais tuliisha kuwa bantu/ tulikuwa déjà mu cinquième primaire/
F: mm/
T: ah/ cinquième primaire [talking to himself]: non ce n'est pas juste/ ce juste: aah/ nalikuwa déjà nazania mu quatrième/
F: quatrième/
T: eeh/ quatrième primaire/
F: na mulitemb: ile wakati mulitembea na bale ba ...?...?
T: tuna mu tembea: shee tulikuwa na barafiki tu/
F: mm/
T: na rafiki yangu mwenyewe tena ali: potea sasa: alikufa tuseme/ ah: Jean/ Yav/ tunaanza kwenda naye: kutembea kule:
F: mm/
T: tunarudia: tulikuwa maparcelles karibu/
F: mm/ kisha ilifika: eh: ile ile mammouth ali: ilifika: eh: Lubumbashi:
T: bon/ kufika Lubumbashi: sawa vile nalikuambia: bali: pika: masasi/
F: masasi/
T: eeh/
F: na moya:
T: sawa nilikuambia kama: eeh: kuko Indien moya/ sawa vile ?naliambia ...?...: na kuko mimbo ya baLuba inyee ile ba...?...
F: aah ile mwimbo/ inafaa: inafaa:
T: eeh/ [chuckles]
F: ndiyo/
T: bon/ voilà/ sawa vile mwimbo: banaimbaka asema: nani: ts: char de: bon/ eh [hesitates] utaniexcuser eh?
F: ndiyo/ char:
T: [sings] char de combat: waswi likutwela/ wafika pa Sabena watwana Indiani/ Iindiani: wafika pa Sabena: watwana Indiani ya Indiani/ Indiani waile ka kimoke kitema/ baKatanga nibipoyo pa nyuma ke banyemaa/ baKatanga nebipoyo pa nyuma/ [singing ends] ni pa mwisho pale eh?
F: mm/
T: njo banaanzaka kuimba/ ilikuwa mwimbo ya révolution ya ...?..
F: mwimbo ya Katanga?
T: ni ya Katanga/ ilikuwa mimbo ya révolution yabo: à part: nani: Katanga/
F: mm/
T: na bo balikatalaka ile mambo/ sasa baKatangais banakuita asema: barebelles: ya sécession: Katangaise/
F: mm/
T: njo vile ilikuyaka/
F: mm/
T: ahah/
F: ku: ugeuze tu: mu Swahili/
T: bon/ mu Swahili ni kusema: nani: nani: baKatanga balitafuta kuingia: na char: na ile: mammouth yabo/ mm/ sawa: nani: Indiani: alipikaka bunduki moja tu: ilikamata: ku ile char: na ile char: iliwaka: [claps] balikimbia/ balikimbiaka na bifulushi: pa mabega/
F: [chuckles]
T: c'est que: mambo: yote iliisha/ ilikuwa chance ya ule: ya ule Indien/ eeh/
F: eeh/ na baONU/
T: c'est ça/ mm/
F: kumbe bale bengine bote banakimbia: paka ile Indien?
T: ah ile Indien:
F: ule Indien:
T: njo banakimbia/
F: ahah/
T: ehem/ ah bale bote banakimbia: banakimbia char/
F: ndiyo/
T: bale baONU/
F: ndiyo/
T: banakimbia: pake ula Indien alifunga roho asema kama nikufwa: nikufwe/ njo alipika: ndani ya ntundu ile ya: canon:
F: mm/
T: et puis kinawaka moto/ unaona ile ma: bunduki yote iko napika: ile ma: ma: ma kama ni mabombes kama nini: beko napika kule:
F: eeh/
T: iko napasuka tu/
F: eeh/
T: yee anakwenda tu/
F: eeh/
T: eeh/ 		8.
F: So this is [number] seventy [Painting 71: The Monster of the Secession. We stopped at number seventy, no, sixty-nine; so this is seventy [showing] this mammoth.
T: The mammoth, yes.
F: Was it at Comekat where they built it?
T: At Comekat in Likasi.
F: ...?...
T: As I told you when you take the road to Kolwezi, you will see the workshop.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: Mammoth, it's written on it. Did you see it with your own eyes?
T: The mammoth?
F: Yes.
T: I used to go to the place were they were building it and watch. My father worked in Likasi. There was not much fighting in Likasi.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So we would roam the town.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: With our peers. We did not know about who was originally from Katanga [or not], we were just friends, small children, running together. Although, not really that small because we were already in the fourth grade of primary school.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, or was it fifth grade [talking to himself], no, that's not true. Or it is, yes, I think I was already in fourth grade.
F: Fourth [grade].
T: Yes, fourth grade, elementary school.
F: So you went out around at that time with those...?...
T: When we went out, it was with friends.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: My [best] friend has passed away, he died. Yes, this was Jean Yav. We used to go out together.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Then we would come back to our lots that were close.
F: Mm-hmm. So the mammoth eventually got to Lubumbashi.
T: Alright. When it got to Lubumbashi they fired bullets at it.
F: Bullets.
T: Yes.
F: And one person...
T: It was a I told you: There was an Indian [who got the mammoth], as I told you. [In those days], the Luba people had a song about...
F: Ah, that song, it should....
T: Yes [chuckles].7
F: Yes.
T: So, here it is. This is how it went. The sang: "The -- what do you call it? -- tank..." Well [hesitates], you'll excuse me?
F: Yes, about the tank.
T: [sings in Luba] Char de combat: waswi likutwela/ wafika pa Sabena watwana Indiani/ Indiani: wafika pa Sabena: watwana Indiani ya Indiani/ Indiani waile ka kimoke kitema/ baKatanga nibipoyo pa nyuma ke banyemaa/ baKatanga nebipoyo pa nyuma/ [singing ends]8 And that was the end, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's the song they sang, it was a revolutionary song....
F: A song from Katanga?
T: It was from Katanga. It was a song of their Katangese revolution.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They were against [the secession]. So the Katangese called them rebels against the secession of Katanga.9
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's how it was.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: Translate [the song] in Swahili.
T: Alright, in Swahili it says, "The Katangese wanted to get into the tank, that mammoth of theirs." Mm-hmm. "Then an Indian fired his gun just once and got the tank. And they10 fled [claps] and the tank stayed behind. They ran away, their belongings [lit. bundles] on their shoulders.
F: [chuckles]
T: And that was the end of that affair. It was that Indian's luck.
F: Some one from the UN.
T: Right, mm-hmm.
F: So, all the others ran away, just this Indian....
T: Ah, this Indian...
F: This Indian...
T: ...[fired a shot and] they ran away.
F: I see.
T: Yes, all of them ran away from the tank.
F: Yes.
T: All [the soldiers] of the UN...
F: Yes.
T: ... they ran away, only this Indian soldier had the courage to say: "If I die, I die." Then he fired his rifle right into the nozzle of the cannon.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There was an explosion. You see [in the painting] that all [the tank's] guns went off, so did the bombs, or whatever was inside.
F: I see.
T: Everything exploded.
F: I see.
T: [And then] he just walked away.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
9.
F: bon: na tena: massacre ya Kipushi: ni [Painting 72: The Massacre of the Luba at Kipushi]
T: oui/ massacre ya Kipushi:
F: hapa ni s: numéro septante: hapa septante et un:
T: eeh/
F: paka ku: ilikuwa tu ndani ya kiwanza: ao mbele:
T: ilikuwa ndani ya mugini/
F: ndani ya mugini/
T: c'est que ni ku nyumba: ku nyumba/ kama banafika kule:
F: mu nyumba mm/
T: batakutosha na famille yako yote/ eh? ilikuya: c'est vrai ts/
F: kumbe: sikukuwa mu usine ao mu mu: mu:
T: hapana ile tunareprésenter: juu ya
F: mungoti:
T: mufahamu kama: ni mu Kipushi/ c'est que ni mu: ni ku mu: fasi ya mungoti tuseme/
F: ni vile uliweka: mungoti:
T: ni kuonyesha tu asema ni fasi fulani/ mm? sawa ni kitu munene: ilikuwa kintu munene:
F: ile ile munene: inaitwa namna gani?
T: ile: shee tuko naita kama ni mungoti/
F: mungoti/
T: ku mungoti/ mm/ sawa kwa sasa hapa kama tunataka kudessiner Kipushi: kusema mambo ya mu Kispushi: tutafanya puits cinq/
F: mm/
T: ile: ile nani: kama ...?... munene/
F: oui oui/ na hii: ilikuwa ya zamani?
T: ii ilikuwa ni ile ya zamani/ ni mine: ni nani: Prince Léopold/
F: mm/
T: mm/ sasa banaita asema miki: MK/
F: na baliua tu ba:
T: baliua batu mingine sana/
F: minaona tu mwanaume/
T: na: unaona banamuke balikuyakako: na batoto benyewe/
F: eyo/
T: ilikuya wale wanakuta: weye: banamitosha ndani ya nyumba: kama unaisha kukomea: uko na mama yako mwenye kuzala: banasema: bakia naye: akuwe bibi yako/ fanya vile unatufanya/ kama unatafuta kuua/ ata kiisha kufanya: tena banakuua/ ilikuwa mubaya/
F: c'est vrai?
T: ahah: ilikuwa mu massacre moya [rummages]: ? neno ya kuwazamo/ 		9.
F: Fine, and then the massacre of Kipushi [Painting 72: The Massacre of the Luba at Kipushi].
T: Yes, the massacre of Kipushi.
F: Here we get to number seventy, seventy-one.
T: Right.
F: This was on the grounds of the mind, or in front of it.
T: It was in the settlement.
F: Inside the settlement.
T: They came to the houses over there.
F: In the houses.
T: They would take you with your whole family [from your house], right?. This happened, it's the truth.
F: So this was not in the mine or in...
T: No, I represent [the mine] so it will be...
F: The mine.
T: ... so it will be recognized that it happened in Kipushi which is a mining town.
F: This is why you put the mine [in the picture].
T: It is to show where it was. Mm-hmm? Because it is an impressive thing, it was an impressive thing.
F: What are those tall structures called?
T: We call them pits.
F: Pits.
T: At the pits, mm-hmm. Nowadays, when we want to draw Kipushi or tell of something that happened in Kipushi, we'll paint Pit Number 5.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This is the tall one.
F: And this [pit], had it been there since long ago?
T: It was the old one, it's the mine "Prince Léopold."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm. Nowadays they call it MK.
F: So they just killed ...
T: They killed many, many people.
F: I seem to see only men.
T: You also see women who were there, and even children.
F: I see.
T: What happened was that if those killers caught you at home they would get you outside the house. If you were a grown-up and living with your own mother they would say: "Stay with her, she should be your wife. Do to her what you did to us,11 when you were out to kill." And then, after you had done it, they still killed you. It was bad.
F: Is that true?
T: It is. It was some massacre, something to think about.
10.
F: tena: tunaona: mu septante deux: numéro septante deux: [Painting 73: The Death of Dag Hammarskjöld]
T: mm/
F: kufa ya: Hammarskjöld/
T: c'est ça/
F: kule ?naona Panam: mu USA:
T: bon:
F: kuko avion ya:
T: kuko avion ya USA: sawa vile minasema USA.: Etats Unis d'Amérique:
F: mm/
T: na drapeau ya l'ONU: c'est que ilitoka: ni mu Amérique/
F: njo drapeau yake ya ON:
T: ya Amérique: ya: non: ya l'ONU/
F: ya l'ONU/
T: ah ya l'ONU/ ilitoka ni mu Amérique: sawa vile ilikuwa kufika: alifia asema nikichuke mu: Zambie/
F: mm/
T: aina ku pori: ya umu apana/ ilif: asema: ikafika mu Zambie: kisha: apate mukuya kuingia huku/ sasa kufika ile kipande: iliwaka moto: na: alikufa/ ile ma: magambera:
F: na hélicopter? gambera? njo gambera?
T: gambera: ilikuwa kunatembea juu: njo kwa kuchunga pa ile fasi: et puis hélicopter nayo: ilikuwa kuchuka kuleta kama ni m: ba: pom: bapo: ni banani bale banaitaka? bapompiers/
F: mm/
T: eeh? nazania njo ...?...
F: mais: Hammarskjöld ni muntu gani? un: a: alitoka wapi?
T: Dag Hammarskjöld?
F: mm/
T: mais minaz: sijue kabila yake/ mais tangu basécrétraires ya nani: ya l'ONU: s: général ya: généraux ya l'ONU: banaanza kuingia:
F: mm/
T: sifahamu makabila yabo/
F: mm/
T: mais ile jina Hammarskjöld: iko: sawa kabila ya ba: ts: ya banani? ah eeeh/ aah: quoi ts? minasahabu kabila hii: ha: minasahabu kabisa kwa lakini/
F: mm/
T: nasahabu/ iko na mu bitabu ya Tintin: minasomaka mara ingine/
F: mm/
T: mm/ 		10.
F: Then we see in [painting] seventy-two, number seventy-two...[Painting 73: The Death of Dag Hammarskjöld]
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Hammarskjöld's death.
T: That's it.
F: [On the plane] I see written USA PANAM.
T: Fine.
F: So this was plane of...
T: It was an American plane. That's why I say USA, United States of America.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And the United Nations emblem. This is to say that it came from America.
F: So that is the emblem of the UN.
T: Of America, no, of the UN.
F: Of the UN.
T: Yes, of the UN. [The plane] took off in America and when it came close to its destination, the plane broke down, so the pilot wanted to set it down in Zambia.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Not in the bush on this side of the border. It got to Zambia and then it was not allowed to enter [the Congo]. Now, when it got there, it was in flames and crashed. And there are Canberra fighters.
F: And helicopters? Canberra? Are these Canberras?
T: Canberras were patrolling above the site and then there arrived helicopters to bring -- how are they called? -- rescue workers [lit. firemen].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Right? I think it is....12
F: But what kind of person was Hammarskjöld, where was he from?
T: Dag Hammarskjöld?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Well, I think... I don't know his nationality, but ever since there were persons who became secretaries general of the United Nations...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... I don't know their nationalities.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But this name Hammarskjöld sounds like he was -- what was it again? I completely forgot.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I had read about it once in the Tintin comics.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
11.
F: bon/ septante trois: la mort de Sendwe: [Painting 74: Jason Sendwe's Tomb]
T: mm/
F: tuko naona tu kaburi:
T: kaburi:
F: yake: mu pori:
T: mu pori: c'est que ni:
F: ni fasi gani?
T: ni mu Kalemie/
F: mu Kalemie?
T: aah/ zamani ilikuwa Albertville/
F: Albertville/
T: ah njo fasi balimuzikia Sendwe/ nazania Mobutu aliwezea kufika kule: alimuhonorer: mais: na médaille moya sifahamu ma: médailles ile alimuhonorer/
F: ni barebelles banani: barebelles balimuua c'est ça?
T: mais: barebelles balimuua/ mais kuko mapsoupçons/ kuko ingine: puisque: lufu ya Kabongo: ya chef Kabongo: njo alikuwa na ku lufu yake:
F: mm/
T: c'est que: ba balisirikaka: comment: yee alitoka anakuya mu camp ya refugiés: anakuwa kusikilizana na: Tshombe/ makati ile ya barefugiés/ sasa sawa ilibish:
F: Sendwe alikuwa kusikilizana?
T: Sendwe alikuyaka na ?huyu bwana/ balikuwaka pamoya na baIleo: makati ile walikuwa: ministre résident:
F: mm/
T: humu mu Shaba/ mais sasa bo balisirikaka asema sawa shee tulikufa mingi: wee unakwenda kusumbulia na bale batu: njo balimuua/ njo vile ilikuya/ bengine banasema ni barebelles/ mais normalment ilikuwa paka baLuba njo balimuua ...?.../
F: mm/
T: ata vile chef Kabongo/ balimuua kuko baBaluba ...?.../
F: jina yake ni Janson/
T: Janson Sendwe/
F: ulimufahamu?
T: ah na: mi nalimuonaka na kumuona/ aah/ alikuwa mu Likasi: mu soixante: deux: banamubeba mu kipoyo humu/ eko nalamukia batu/
F: mm/
T: shee tulikwendaka kule: mvula ilipikaka ile siku kidogo: tulikuwa mingi sana/ tunamuongojea: akukutokeaka ku: entrée ya ville/ mais alitokeaka: ku mwisho ya ville/ atujue mufano ...?...
F: ngambo ya Kolwezi?
T: non: ngambo ya: Kambove/
F: ya Kambove?
T: njo kule alitokeaka/ shee bote ...?tafukuza mbio: tunakwenda tunamulamukia:
F: mm/
T: na salut ya kama ni kufa/ kisha paka pale: njo naanza kumuona paka ku mafoto tu/
F: eyo/
T: mm/
F: unajua alito: ni muntu wa: wa: wa:
T: yee: Sendwe?
F: wa baLuba?
T: mm/ ni muntu ya baLuba/ baLuba ya Kabongo/
F: mm/
T: mm/ njo kwabo/ ni muLuba ya Kabongo/ karibu na: frontière ya Kasai/ njo kwabo tu/
F: mm/ bon: nazani ngambo moya [looking at tape]: bado/ paka karibu 		11.
F: Alright, seventy-three, the death of Sendwe [Painting 74: Jason Sendwe's Tomb]
T: Mm-hmm.
F: We just see a grave.
T: A grave.
F: His [grave] in the bush.
T: In the bush, because....
F: Where is this place?
T: It's in Kalemie.
F: In Kalemie?
T: Yes, which used to be Albertville in the old days.
F: Albertville.
T: That's the place where they buried Sendwe. And I think then Mobutu came and honored him with some kind of medal but I don't know exactly which.
F: It was the rebels who killed Sendwe, is that it?
T: Well, the rebels killed him but there are suspicions that others were involved. Because there was also chief Kabongo's death which coincided with that of Sendwe.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: People were angry at him because -- how shall I say? -- he left and came to the refugee camp to make peace with Tshombe. It was the time of the refugees. Now ...
F: Sendwe came to make peace? T; Sendwe came with this gentleman; he and Ileo were together at the time when the latter was ambassador...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...here in Shaba. But then people got angry: "Many of us are dying, you go and talk to those people." Then they killed him. This is what happened. Some say it was the rebels but it had to be the Luba themselves who killed him...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Even chief Kabongo, it's the Luba who killed him.
F: [Sendwe's first] name was Janson.
T: Janson Sendwe.
F: Did you know him?
T: Just by sight. In '62, he was in Likasi. They carried him around in a tipoy chair and he waved to the people.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We went there. It was raining a little that day, and there were many of us. We were waiting until he finally appeared at the edge of town. We didn't know what he looked like.
F: Coming from Kolwezi?
T: No, from Kambove.
F: From Kambove?
T: That's where he came from. All of us were chased away at once. We had come to greet him.13
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It was to be a terrific greeting [lit. a greeting as if to die]. After that I saw him only on photographs.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Do you know where he came from?
T: He, Sendwe?
F: From the Luba?
T: Mm-hmm. He was a Luba of Kabongo.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm. That's where they live. He was a Luba from Kabongo, close to the Kasai border, that's their place.
F: Mm-hmm. [Looking at tape] I think one side [is full]. No, not yet, but it is getting close.
12.
hapa tunaona mumbunda na mampala/ [Painting 75: Planes Attacking the Lubumbashi Smelter] [chuckles]
T: mumbunda ya Gécamines/
F: mm/ mumbunda ya Gécamines/
T: njo fasi inyee: ilipikana mvita ya Katanga yote tu/ sawa vile itaweza kuwa: histoire murefu: pale juu palikuwa bwana moja: alitombokaka/ aliingia mu armée ya Katanga/
F: mm/
T: alikuwa Kabinda/
F: yee:
T: kisha alitombokaka tena: alipandaka yulu ya mumbunda hapa: anaanza kupika: mortier ya Katanga/ ngambo yote/ ya com: ya mazones/ ya macommunes/ mu Kenya: mu Katuba: eko naua tu/ kisha nayee balimuuaka wee/
F: alikuwa wazimu?
T: alikuwa tu: sijue kama ni bishilani: kama ni nini/
F: aah/
T: kisha nayee: [rummages]
F: oui/
T: kisha na yeye ali: balimuuaka/ abakumuake balimubambaka/
F: mm/
T: balimufungaka mikono: na [claps] kumukokota ku jep [sic]:
F: mm/
T: mbio kabisa: sawa anaanguka chini: eko naneenda kumukokota: na kukatika nyama yote: anakufa/
F: banani: ba?
T: baKatangais/ yee alikuwa Katangais/ aliingia mu armée ya Katanga/
F: eyo/
T: na kisha alitomboka sasa/
F: [chuckles, unbelieving]
T: mm/
F: ile ulijua: eh: uliona ao balikuambia?
T: non: balinielezea/
F: baliniele:
T: ile ilisemewa tu fasi yote ata ku radio ya Katanga ilimwaka/
F: c'est vrai? na: ile avions: ni avions gani pale?
T: ile avions: ni: nani: gambera/
F: ni gambera?
T: gambera/
F: ni: gambera ilikuwa ya ONU?
T: ilikuwa ya ONU/ Fouga Magister ilikuwa ya: Katanga/
F: ya Katanga/
T: eheh/
F: kumbe kambera: balifanya vita ya: ya Union Minière?
T: ya Union Minière/ njo ilikombanaka: na kupika mabombes mule ba: banani: basoldats bote kukimbia: na mvita: inamalizika/
F: njo mwisho ya mvi: ya vita?
T: mvita ya: Katanga/ ni ilimalizika/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/ 		12.
Here we see the smoke stack and the slag heap [Painting 75: Planes Attacking the Lubumbashi Smelter] [chuckles]
T: The smoke stack of Gécamines.
F: Mm-hmm. The smoke stack of Gécamines.
T: It marks the one place where there was fighting during the entire Katanga war. [What I can tell you about it] would be a long story [but let me give just this one incident]: There, way up [on the smoke stack], was one man who had been exploding. He had joined the Katangese army...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...although he was a Kabinda.
F: He [was]?
T: Eventually, when this attack of rage came on him, he climbed to top of the smoke stack here and began to fire his Katangese mortar, aiming in every direction, right into the communities of Kenia and Katuba. He was killing people. Finally, he was killed, too.
F: Was he crazy?
T: He was just -- I don't know, was it rancor or what?
F: I see.
T: The he too...
F: Yes.
T: Eventually he was killed, but not right away. They caught him...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...tied his hands together and dragged him away behind a jeep.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They went really fast and, as he was on the ground, he was being torn up, his flesh was torn to pieces and he died.
F: Who did this?
T: The Katangese. He was a Katangese soldier himself, he had joined the Katangese army.
F: I see.
T: But eventually [he just couldn't take it anymore and] exploded.
F: [chuckles, unbelieving]
T: Mm-hmm.
F: How did you know this? Did you see it or did they tell you [about it]?
T: No, they told me about it.
F: They told you...
T: There was talk about this everywhere, even on Katanga radio went on about it.
F: Is that true? And what are those planes there?
T: They were Canberra fighters.
F: Canberra?
T: Canberra.
F: Did the Canberra belong to the United nations?
T: They belonged to the United Nations, Katanga had the Fouga Magister.
F: Of Katanga.
F: So those Canberras attacked the Union Minière?.
T: The Union Minière, there was fighting, bombs were dropped, all the soldiers who were inside ran away, and that was the end of the war.
F: That was the end of the war?
T: The war of Katanga was finished.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes.
13.
F: mais [pulling out Painting 76: The Building of the Town of Mbuji-Mayi]: [aside] acha tu: nani: tupindule mbele... [changing tape]
T: ...natosha tableau muzuri: [rummage]
F: très bien/ ah m: sasa: sawa: tuliisha kusumbulia juu ya mumbunda na mampala:
T: bon: tunasumbulia yee ...?...
F: mais: niko na kintu ya kukuuliza/
T: ah/
F: ni ile tableau bantu banaombaka tu? sawa vile wee unafanya série moya munene: munene sana: mais zaidi: mbele ya kwanza na hii série: ilikuwa tu wa: tableau kama ni tatu: ao inne/
T: bon/
F: bantu bana: uzaka/
T: banauzaka zaidi/ eeh/ sasa ku ile tableaux ingine nakuletea:
F: mm/
T: ile njo mawazo yangu/ mais kama l'état alitua: alituachia liberté: tunaenea kutumikayo tena nazani bantu balitafuta kuuza mingi/ bon: sawa hivi: tu: tuna ngopa kwa batu bengine eh? kama unatosha atasema ooh: una: leta mambo ya zamani/ mais sawa vile nalikuambia kama: banduku yetu banauzaka matableau: juu ya: kuweka mu nyumba kufurahi macou: macouleurs/ sawa hivi naweka/
F: mm/
T: juu ya: rangi/ mais: abakumbuke: maana ya ile tableau/
F: eeh/
T: sawa hivi minaingia humu mwako/ minaona ile tableaux ya: Mwenze?
F: eeh/
T: bon: minaona: kama: anafanya banyama pale/ mais ku banduku bengine banaona paka ile nyama: iko furaha/ mais: abayue: anafansia maana gani: ni ndani ya pori: muko miti: ndege inaluga yulu: nyama iko nakimbia moto/
F: mm/
T: ni vile nazani mi minaona/
F: mm/
T: mais: abawaze ile/
F: mm/
T: sasa bo: kama unafanya: sawa ile ingine tableaux ingine: ooh pourquoi unafanya vile: ni mawazo mubaya/
F: mm/
T: sawa vile ulinilomba na mi naliitika: furaha ya kusema: nionyeshe: kama na shee tunaikalaka na akili ya kuenea kutumika hivi: mais: banduku yetu njo beko natufreiner/ mêmes les autorités/
F: mm/
T: anaona atasema: ah: pourquoi unafanya Lumumba ya mufunga? ni mubaya/ et pourquoi unafanya hivi: iko mubaya/ sawa ile: tableau ile ya Lumumba minakufansia anaisha kufa hii:
F: mm/
T: nikitoshayo nazani mu Lubumbashi: niko sûr: sababu: exposition yangu yote: kama naexposer: nikipima kuexposer hapa pa: au Bon Marché/ nitaweza kubeba vile ile yote ile/ bantu batakuya: [claps] mingi sana/
F: mm/
T: sasa mu buingi mule utashikia bengine bana?anza kusema: ts: mais bintu ya hivi: aah: ts: iko mubaya/ na au lieu ya kuuza: kwenda kubakia nayo: mawazo: yee anasema iko mubaya/
F: mm/
T: [low voice, sentence incomprehensible] ...?...
F: paka: paka: sawa ...?...
T: kwa hii série nakufansia:
F: eh/
T: uko muntu wa kuanza unapata ile/
F: mm/
T: yote: akuna muntu ingine/ sauf ile ingine: nalikwenda naye kwa Bol3 : ku cinq tableau iko hapa:
F: mm/
T: njo naifika nayo kwa Bol/
F: mm/ 		13.
F; But [pulling out Painting 76: The Building of the Town of Mbuji-Mayi]. Wait, lets turn the tape first.
T: I came up with a good picture.
F: Very well. So, now [we can go on]. We finished talking about the smoke stack and the slag heap.
T: Alright, we talked about...
F: But I want to ask you something.
T: Ah.
F: Is this [the smoke stack] one of the paintings people usually ask for? You painted a very long series, but before you started on that series, was it not above all three or four pictures...
T: Alright.
F: ...people usually bought?
T: They mostly bought [those], yes. But as to these other pictures I brought you ...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...they were my idea. But if the state would give us the freedom to work, I think people would seek to buy many [pictures]. Alright, as things are, we are afraid of certain people, right? When you come up [with one of them, someone] will say: "Oh, you are bringing old stuff." But it is as I told you, our brothers buy paintings to put hang them at home and to enjoy the colors, for instance, as I put them here [in this painting].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It's about the color but they don't think about the meaning of that painting.
F: I see.
T: Like when I come inside your home here, I see those paintings by Mwenze, right?
F: I see.
T: Alright. I see [some artists] paints those animals. But some brothers only see those animals and enjoy it. But they don't realize what [the artist] intended -- that it is [a scene] in the bush. These are trees, birds rise, animals flee from the fire.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I guess, this is how I see it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But they don't think that way.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Now, when you do those other paintings [they say]: "Oh, why did you do it that way, it's a bad idea.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Because you asked me I went along with it. I was glad to be able to show that we are intelligent enough to work in this way. But our brothers put a break on us, especially the authorities.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Some one see [such a painting} and he will say: "Ah, why do you paint Lumumba tied up, this is bad." For instance, this picture I did for you of Lumumba's death.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I am certain, if I were to show it in Lubumbashi...14 Because the only kind of exposition I have is when I try to show [my paintings] at the Bon Marché [store] here [in Lubumbashi]. In that case I could bring along all those painting and a lot of people would come.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And in the crowd you would hear some who begin to talk: "But this kind of stuff, oh, this is bad." Instead of buying and then keep them at home [as something that gives him] thoughts, he says "This is bad."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [low voice, sentence incomprehensible] ...?...
F: Always only [those few paintings they like].
T: About this series I did for you...
F: I see.
T: ... you are the first to get it...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...all of it. No one else [will get those pictures], except the ones I took to [Mr.] Bol, those five pictures here.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I went with them to [Mr.] Bol.
F: Mm-hmm.
14.
bon/ donc tu: tuendelea hapa ku série: tunafika sasa: mu septante: cinq: construction de Mbuji Mayi/
T: bon/ ni wakati ile mu Katanga muko mvita: na ku Mbuji Mayi kulikuwa paka vita/
F: mm/
T: ni baLuba: bale banabafukuza ku: ku Kananga/ bo balikwenda kwabo/ mais kwabo: sawa vile bazungu wali: abakuyengaka ile Mbuji Mayi apana/
F: aah/
T: baliyenga tu Bakwanga:
F: Bakwanga:
T: Forminière:
F: aah/
T: baliyenga tumanyumba tu twa bantu ya kazi/
F: ndiyo/
T: sasa pa bo kurudia ku ...?... balikuya: balitoka ku Kananga/ balikuyako/ haba balifukusha ku Shaba: balikuya/ baBukavu: balikuya/
F: mm/
T: baKisangani: balikuya/
F: mm/
T: baBandaka: balikuya/ baKinshasa: balifika fasi moja/ sasa balikuwa tu mu pori/ njo balikata tu pori: kukata miti: na kusema tuyenge/ na kama unakwendako leo nazania utakuta mugini ni munene sasa/
F: munene/
T: sasa/
F: minaona drapeau ya:
T: ya victoire:
F: ya victoire: ile ya baLuba:
T: c'est que: ni ya Kalonji/
F: ni ya Kalonji/
T: ile njo ilikuwa: drapeau mo: ya nani: ya royaume/
F: mm/
T: ya baLuba/
F: na banayengaka: ba: wanamuke wanabeba bintu mu:
T: bitu mu kichwa:
F: kichwa:
T: mule ndani muko banaume: beko nakimbia tembo kule:
F: aah/ mais minaona nyumba ya kuachana/ nyumba ya sawa ku mugini:
T: bon: nyumba ya ku mugini: pale banafika: ndani mule: banayenga betu nyumba ile yetu ya ku mugini ya bankambo/
F: mm/
T: et puis baliwekana sasa ...?... franga: banaanza kuuza matofali: na kuyenga directement/
F: mm/ na mo: hata motokari ...?...
T: na motokari ilikuya kule: balikuwa: bintu yote tu/ même télévision/ kulikuya tu/
F: kulikuya tu?
T: bintu yote ya franga: ilikuyako/
F: na sasa: bon/ tembo: ulisema: ni kuonyesha: kama ilikuwa tu mu pori/
T: ilikuwa mu pori tu/
F: mm/
T: mulikuwa tembo: sawa ku kipande ya Kasai kuko tembo mingi/
F:mm/
T: sawa kipande ya Bakwa Nsumpi/ na sasa/ kama unatembea: utaona tembo anatoka pale/
F: eyo/
T: chui: ou bien simba/
F: sasa balifunga nani: kima/
T: ni: kima ule wanafunga/
F: [chuckles]
T: mm: balikuwa na kima yabo: wanafunga:
F: juu ya nini?
T: ni nyama yako unaenea kutembea nayo/ bale bengine balipenda/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/ ata:
F: kupenda: kutembea na pi: na kima?
T: na kima kufunga/ ata mimi: niko naye: na yangu/
F: hapa sasa?
T: ku Likasi/ Madame Fabian alikuelezea?
F: c'est vrai?
T: alikamata na foto: kwa mukubwa/
F: eyo/
T: sasa pale nalikuwa Kamina: nilianza kuuza: mingi: tusumbulia mbele inyewe: nitasumbulia ile eh?
F: aah/
T: mm/
F: na eko na nani: na:
T: na munyololo/
F: munyololo/
T: eeh/ njo kusema chaîne/
F: oui oui/
T: eeh/
F: munyololo la chaîne: et puis: ile ile nini:
T: ile muti: na kanyumba yake ku kichwa/
F: kanyumba yake: kanaikala/ eyo [chuckles]/ kima/ kumbe ni kusema balikuwa tu na bintu yabo yote/
T: bilikuwa bintu yote tu/
F: mm/ 		14.
Alright, so let's go on here with the series. We come to seventy-five, the building of Mbuji-Mayi.
T: Fine. This was the time when there was war in Katanga as well as in Mbuji-Mayi.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So when the Baluba were chased away from Kananga they went back to their home country. But the point is, that the Whites did not build Mbuji-Mayi.
F: I see.
T: They built Bakwanga.
F: Bakwanga.
T: [A town for the] Forminière [mining company].
F: I see.
T: And all they built there were those tiny, little houses for their workers.
F: Yes.
T: So the Baluba got back together, coming [from all directions]: the ones from Kananga and those who were expelled from Shaba, those from Bukavu...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... from Kisangani they came...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... those from Mbandaka, from Kinshasa, they all came to this one place. There they found themselves in the middle of the bush. So they cleared the bush, cut lumber, and said: "Let's build." And if you go there today you will see a big city.
F: A big [city].
T: Today.
F: I see the flag of...
T: ... victory.
F: Of victory, the flag of the Baluba.
T: It's Kalonji's flag.
F: It's Kalonji's.
T: It was the flag of the kingdom...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...of the Baluba.
F: People are busy with construction work. The women carry loads.
T: On their heads.
F: Their heads.
T: There are men, running away from an elephant over there.
F: Yes. I also see houses of different types. There are some huts like in a village.
T: Alright. Those they built when they first arrived, huts like our ancestors used to build.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Then they got some money together and began to buy bricks and used them for building.
F: Mm-hmm. And there were even cars?
T: There were cars, everything. There was even television.
F: Was there?
T: Anything that money could buy.
F: Now, about the elephant. It was to show that the place was in the bush.
T: It was in the bush.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There were elephants. In the Kasai region there are many elephants.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Where the Bakwa Nsumpi live, even today, when you take a walk you will see an elephant coming out [of the bush].
F: I see.
T: Leopards and lions.
F: And there they tied up a monkey.
T: Yes, it's a monkey on a leash.
F: [chuckles]
T: People had monkeys whom they kept on a leash.
F: What for?
T: It's an animal you can walk around with. Some people like this sort of thing.
F: Really?
T: Yes.
F: They like to walk around with a monkey?
T: Have a monkey on a leash. Even I myself have one.
F: Right now?
T: Yes, in Likasi. Didn't Mrs. Fabian tell you?
F: Is that true?
T: She even took photos at my elder brother's place.
F: I see. T; Now, when I lived in Kamina I used to buy many [monkeys], ....15
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: This one [in the painting] is on...
T: ... a chain.
F: A chain.
T: Yes, it is a chaîne.
F: Yes, yes.
T: Right.
F: Munyulolo means chaîne. And this thing, what is this?
T: It's a pole, and the monkey has his little house on top.
F: His little house where he lives. [chuckles] Well, well, a monkey. So it all goes to say that people had everything.
T: They had everything.
F: Mm-hmm.
15.
kiisha: eh: septante six: Kalonji Albert: [Painting 77: Kalonji, Emperor of Sout Kasai]
T: bon/
F: sawa nani:
T: empereur/
F: empereur/ minaona anavwala costume: sawa ya bazungu/
T: costume: ya bazungu vile:
F: mais: tena: aah: eko na shoka/
T: shoka ku mukono: ku libega yake:
F: ku: ku libega yake:
T: mm/
F: ni kusema ni: inao: inamuonyesha:
T: bon/
F: ni sultani/
T: sawa hivi: nazania: sasa hapa Mobutu eko na ile: mukombo yake eh?
F: mm/
T: ni kweli: yeye nayee: alikuyaka na ile mukombo yake nayee/ alianza kutembea na banamuke: unaona ii: aba banamuke mbili?
F: mm/
T: kuko foto: inye prise: inye kukamatiwa: utaweza kuona iko muzuri zaidi: eko karibu nayo eh? banamuke bale banamuweka uku: na uku/
F:mm/
T: bale banamuke banamukamatia ile mukombo yake/
F: mm/
T: ile jembe yake: anaweka kuliko hapa/
F: nani? jembe?
T: shoka/
F: shoka/
T: shoka ts: minakota: jembe ni ile ni ile ya kulima naye/
F: oui oui/
T: bon/ ile: ni maliba/ banai: banashona: et puis banafanya kichwa ya simba/
F: maliba?
T: eeh/ raphia/
F: raphia eh?
T: kisha anaweka hapa:
F: mm/
T: na ingine ku mukongo/
F: mm/
T: c'est que njo busultani tuseme kwetu/ sawa vile nilikuelezea kama: ile chapeau ya Mobutu: ni: chui/ ni busultani yetu/
F: eeh/
T: nayee vilevile: ile: ile shoka: tunaitaka kwetu asema [claps] tshilonda tsha bumfumu/
F: tshilonda la?
T: tshilonda: tsha bumfumu/
F: eh/
T: njo kusema: nani: shoka: jembe ts: eh: shoka ya:
F: shoka ya busultani/
T: busultani/
F: mm/
T: ile ni: mu ki: ni mu kiKasai nakuelezea/
F: c'est ça mm/ na wale wantu wanamufwata: bale banamuke:
T: banamuke: banamuke:
F: banamuke yabo?
T: apana/
F: paka tu:
T: ilikuwa asema: njo: mufano yake naliwaza ni ya busultani yake/
F: eeh/
T: c'est que: bintu yake banaanza kumuchungia kuko banamuke bale mbili/
F: na ule militaire anamufwata?
T: ah ule ni : ni: officier co: nani: ts: garde corps/
F: garde corps?
T: eeh/
F: [reading inscription] empereur du Sud Kasai/
T: empereur du Sud Kasai/
F: état autonome: premier royaume:
T: royaume:
F: Luba: dans le vingtième siècle/
T: eh/
F: na inaonyesha fasi gani kule? hii/
T: inaonyesha mu Mbuji Mayi/
F: mu Mbuji Mayi?
T: mm/ pale banaisha kufika: angaria sawa banaisha kuyenga nyumba yote:
F: na:
T: maCocaCola:
F: maCocaCola/
T: maPhilips iliingia: malibrairies:
F: Ilunga?
T: ah sawa hivi: Zairinisation ile tunasema:
F: Kayembe:
T: mm/ Zairinisation/
F: aah/
T: oh: ilitoka na kule ku: ku Baluba/
F: ku bazu: Mbuji Mayi/
T: ni bantu: njo balianza mara ya kwanza/ sababu bo abakuye na muzungu: balifika tu: na kuyenga: na kuleta ile bitu ya mamagazins: tout ça/
F: hata baGrecs habakuwa?
T: apana/ ata Grec/
F: mm/
T: balikuwa tu bo benyewe/ 		15.
The comes seventy-six, Kalonji Albert [Painting 77: Kalonji, Emperor of South Kasai].
T: Fine.
F: He was what?
T: Emperor.
F: Emperor. I see that the emperor wears a European suit.
T: A European suit.
F: But then he carries a hatchet.
T: A hatchet in his hand, or rather on his shoulder.
F: On his shoulder.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: So this is to show ...
T: Alright.
F:.. that he is the ruler.
T: Well, it's like nowadays with Mobutu who carries his staff, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Kalonj had one, too. And he used to walk around accompanied by two women, you see them there?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There is a photo, taken of [Kalonji] on which you can see this very well. He is approaching and those women were placed on his sides.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Those women would carry the staff for him.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This jembe of his he would put here [showing].
F: What? Jembe?
T: The hatchet.
F: Hatchet.
T: Hatchet, sorry I made a mistake, jembe is what you use work the fields.16
F: Yes, yes.
T: Alright. [On his chest] this is a piece of maliba, embroidered with a lion's head.
F: Maliba?
T: Yes, raffia.
F: So it is raffia?
T: He wears one piece here [on his chest]...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... and another one on his back.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: In our country this signifies that he is a ruler. It is like I told you about the leopard-skin hat that Mobutu wears, our sign for the office of chief.
F: I see.
T: And this hatchet we call in our language tshilonda tsha bumfumu.
F: Tshilonda la?
T: Tshilonda tsha bumfumu.
F: I see.
T: That is to say, the hatchet, the hoe, sorry, the hatchet of...
F: ... the hatchet of the chief's office.
T: Of the chief's office.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: What I told you was in the Kasai language.
F: Right, mm-hmm. And the people who follow him, those women...
T: The women...
F: Were they his17 women?
T: No.
F: Just...
T: It was just a way for me to represent his status as a rule.
F: I see.
T: Those two women were the keepers of his paraphernalia.
F: And the military person who follows him.
T: Oh, he is an officer -- what do you call him? -- a body guard.
F: A body guard?
T: Yes.
F: [reading inscription] "Emperor of South Kasai."
T: Emperor of South Kasai.
F: [continues reading] "Autonomous state, first kingdom"...
T: Kingdom.
F: ..."[of the] Luba in the twentieth century."
T: Yes.
F: And what is the place shown on this picture?
T: It shows Mbuji-Mayi.
F: This is in Mbuji-Mayi?
T: Mm-hmm. This is were they had come to. Look at all the houses they had finished building.
F: And [pointing to signs]...
T: Coca Cola.
F: Coca Cola.
T: Phillips had an outlet there and there were also bookstores.
F: And the names "Ilunga?"
T: Ah, that stands for Zairianization, let's say.
F: And "Kayembe?"
T: Mm-hmm. Zairianization.
F: I see.
T: It started there with the Baluba.
F: In Mbuji-Mayi.
T: It was the people. The people themselves began [with Zairianization]. There were no Whites. People just arrived, built the town, and brought the wares to stock their shops with, all that.
F: Not even Greeks were there?
T: No, not a single Greek.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It was just the people.
16.
F: sasa: numéro septante sept: Sud Kasai/ [Painting 78: The Kanioka Revolt] bon: sawa vile uli: ulinielezea: ni kwa Kanioka:
T: eheh/
F: aaah:
T: na ba:
F: walikuwa kubishana na: baKatanga/ Luba Katanga/
T: non: na: na baLuba Kasai/
F: baLuba Kasai?
T: eeh/
F: na ...?....
T: na ba: na ba gendarmes ya Kalonji/
F: mm/
T: c'est que: sawa balikosanaka: bo balisema shee tukamate: ii Mwene Ditu: na Ngandajika: njo kipande yabo eh? Mwene Ditu Ngandajika:
F: mm/
T: na Luputa:
F: mm/
T: iko bulongo ya Kanioka/
F: eyo/
T: bon: bo balisema tukamate hii: tu: tuweke iko province ya Midi/ bana?ita asema: province: Midi/
F: mm/
T: c'est que ni province moya itaungana na Shaba/
F: oui mais: maneno mbali kule minaona drapeau ya Shaba/
T: drapeau: bo balipandisha na drapeau yabo asema shee tuko paka bantu ya Shaba/
F: aah/
T: njo tunatafuta kwenda kule/
F: ilikuwa mu place: mbele ya gare:
T: ilikuwa mbele ya gare:
F: na magazins/
T: mbele ya magazins/
F: [reading] Soriano Rossi/
T: ah Rossi: na:
F: ni magazin ya kweli kule?
T: ah kuko: ma: magazin ya kweli/
F: Savros/
T: Savros/ à Luputa: kuko pa: kama unafika mbele tu: kama unachuka gare ya Luputa:
F: eeh/
T: utashimama: utaona: na ile magazin ...?... c'est que apa [points]: ii partie peko poste/
F: mm/
T: uku mbele njo kuko gare/ na ii njia ni kweli inakwenda ku: Ngandazika [sic]/ ile inakwenda Mwene Ditu/
F: na tena minaona ma: baKaniok banavwala sawa ...?...
T: guerriers:
F: ba:
T: c'est que bo balianza kuvwala hata makati ingine: njo vile nabo beko/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ c'est que: bo banavwalaka vile: maraphia:
F: mm/
T: et puis ma: minyanga4 kule ku mikono: kunaisha/ na ni bantu moya banajua kupitikana na maflêches/
F: mm/
T: mm/ 		16.
F: Now to number seventy-seven, South Kasai [Painting 78: The Kanioka Revolt]. Fine, as you told me, the scene is in Kanioka country.
T: Yes.
F: I see.
T: And they...
F: They were fighting with people from Katanga, the Luba-Katanga.
T: No, with the Luba-Kasai.
F: With the Luba-Kasai?
T: Yes.
F: And...
T: And with Kalonji's gendarmes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: What went wrong between them was this. They said: "We are going to take Mwene Ditu, Ngandajika." [Those are places] are on Kanioka soil, Mwene Ditu, Ngandajika...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And Luputa.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This is Kanioka country.
F: I see.
T: Fine, so they said: "We will take this [country] and make it the Southern Province." They called it "Southern Province."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And that province would be annexed to Shaba.
F: Right, because there in the background I can see the Shaba flag.
T: They raised this flag, saying: We are Shaba people.
F: I see.
T: That is were we want to go.
F: [So the picture show]s the square in front of the railway station.
T: It was in front of the railway station...
F: And of some shops...
T: ...and in front of some shops.
F: [reading] Soriano Rossi.
T: Yes, Rossi and...
F: Is that a real shop there?
T: Yes those are real shops.
F: Savros.
T: Savros. In Luputa, when you get there and get off the train at Luputa station...
F: I see.
T: ...when stop and look around, you will see those shops..?...whereas [pointing] here, on this side, there is the post office.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This here is in front of the station and these roads really run that way, one to Ngandajika, the other to Mwene Ditu/
F: I also notice that the Kanioka are dressed like...
T: ...like warriors.
F: War...
T: That's the way they used to dress, also on other occasions.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, they put on raffia skirts.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And minyanga rattles on their arms, and that was it. They are a people who really knows how to fight with arrows.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
17.
F: [looking for next painting] ts: déjà: Kalonji Albert tulikuwa kukuta: septante huit: coup d'état ya: général Tshi:
T: Tshinyama/
F: Tshinyama:
T: mm/
F: Tshinyama: [Painting 79: The End of the Luba Empire] tena ni mu Mbuji Mayi?
T: ni mu Mbuzi Mayi [sic] mule/
F: oui oui/ ni pake ile rue/ [chuckles]
T: bon:
F: Kanyembe Librairie:
T: [chuckles] eeh: bon: paka ile
F: ...?...
T: fasi eh/ njo fasi moya munene ya Mbuji Mayi/
F: eeh/
T: aah/ ni kweli: minasema nikumbushe na mi/
F: mm/
T: sawa ile i: innocent: cent: innocent: Mbuji Mayi/
F: maana: maana yake ya Mbuji Mayi?
T: Mbuji Mayi eh?
F: ah/
T: iko bouche mayi/ eh? c'est que: kuko mayi moya kule eh? c'est que kuko mayi moya kule eh?
F: mm/
T: iko na forme: tangu Mungu aliumbakayo: kama unashimama munaangaria: utaona: mikulu: inafanya ya muntu/ mikono: inafanya ya muntu/ vilevile na kichwa/ na ni maji moya eh? kama bucha: kama una:
F: kiziwa?
T: ni: ah: ni: ts: sorte ya rivière kwa lakini/
F: rivière/
T: kama unatupa: buchafu mule ndani/ utaona: ile mayi inakamata buchafu mutupa paka mpembeni/ iko mweupe na utaona na chini yake/ fasi banatoshaka diamant/
F: mm/
T: tuseme/
F: mbushi:
T: Mbuji Mayi/
F: mbuji ni kusema:
T: mbuji? ni mbuji wetu huyu/ chèvre/
F: eeh/
T: eeh/ ni mbuji/
F: mm/
T: mayi: ni ile mayi/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ mais ilikuwa mu: Français: bouche: kama ni bouche mayi: c'est ba: bantu: bazungu baliish: bazungu baliita embouchire/
F: ahah/
T: à l'embouchire: sasa bantu banaita asema: mbuji: mayi/
F: mayi/
T: mm/
F: kumbe ule nani:
T: Tshinyama/
F: Tshinyama/
T: mm/
F: sasa uliweka coup d'état: entre coup d'etat uliweka hii victoire:
T: bon/
F: et na:
T: njo kusema coup d'état: njo kusema: la fin/
F: oui/
T: semasema la fin: du royaume/ ile i: njo ilikuya royaume/ na yee Kalonji eh?
F: mm/
T: alikuya: shi ?kushikia busultani: alikuya na ile: lion/
F: lion/
T: simba/ et puis alikuwa na léopard/ mu victoire yake: pa timbres yake: alikamataka kichwa ya lion: ya léopard: anaweka: vile minafanya/
F: sasa ile royaume ilikawa: mwezi ngapi?
T: royaume ya Kalonji?
F: eeh/
T: non: royaume ilianza: soixante: soixante: soixante et un: soixante deux: fini/
F: mm/
T: ni vile ilikuya/ non soixante trois/ kwanza kwake/
F: eh/
T: eeh/ njo iliisha/ 		17.
F: [looking for next painting]. Wait, we already had Kalonji Albert, [now] seventy-eight, General Tshi...
T: Tshinyama.
F: Tshinyama.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: [find the picture] Tshinyama [Painting 79: The End of the Luba Empire]. Is that still in Mbuji-Mayi?
T: It's in Mbuji-Mayi.
F: Yes. Yes, it's the same street. [chuckles]
T: Right.
F: Kanyembe bookstore.
T: [chuckles] Yes, it's...
F: ...?...
T: ...the same place. It's an important place in Mbuji-Mayi.
F: I see.
T: Yes. It's true, I made myself remember it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Like this [inscription over a shop] "cent Mbuji-Mayi," [meaning] Innocent Mbuji-Mayi.18
F: And what does "Mbuji-Mayi" mean?
T: Mbuji-Mayi?
F: Yes.
T: It's bouche [mouth] mayi [water], right? There is a river19 there, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: God created it with a [characteristic] shape. When you stop to look you'll see the legs, the arms, even the head of a person. It is a river, right? When dirt...
F: [Perhaps] a lake?
T: Ah, well, it's a sort of small river.
F: A small river.
T: When you throw dirt in it you will see that the water picks up the dirt and leaves it on the sides. It is clear and you can see the bottom. It's a place where they mine diamonds.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Let's say...
F: About mbushi.
T: Mbuji-Mayi.
F: What does mbuji mean?
T: Mbuji? It's that goat of ours, chèvre [in French].
F: I see.
T: Yes, it's the goat.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And mayi, that's water.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. But if it would be in French, bouche, then it would by "mouth water." The whites used to call it embouchure, river mouth.
F: I see.
T: "At the mouth of the river." Nowadays the people say Mbuji-Mayi.
F: Mayi.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: So, about this...
T: Tshinyama.
F: Tshinyama.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Now you put [an inscription on the painting saying] "Coup d'état" and between coup and d'état you inserted this victory sign [a large V]
T: Alright.
F: And with...
T: It is to say that the coup d'état was the end.
F: Yes.
T: The end of the kingdom, that kingdom of Kalonji's, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He had this lion [painted between the legs of the V]. It was understood that this marked his rulership.
F: A lion.
T: Simba.20 Later he had the leopard, inside his victory-sign. He had this put onto his postage stamps. He took a the head of a lion, or rather leopard and put it there, just they way I painted it.
F: So, how many months did his kingdom last?
T: Kalonji's kingdom?
F: Yes.
T: No [not months], it began in 1961 and was finished in 1962.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's how it was. No, its end was in 1963. He was the one who founded it.21
F: I see.
T: Yes, then it was over.
18.
F: septante huit: ao kama ni: septante neuf sasa/ [Painting 80: Tshombe Prime Minister]
T: mm/
F: démission de Adoula/ voilà/
T: bon/
F: naona ni parlement/
T: sawa vile nalikuelezea kama ile ni: palais de la nation eh?
F: palais de la nation/
T: nazani kama njo Mont Ngaliema/ ni yuu Mont Ngaliema/
F: hapana: ni mu ville/
T: ni ville eh?
F: ville oui/
T: na inaweza kama sababu: pa ile kitabu ile banasema kama ni résidence: ya président/
F: ile?
T: eeh/
F: palais de nation?
T: eeh/ njo banasema ku ile kitabu: nazani ilikuwa Kasavubu/
F: mm/
T: bon: njo pale ya ile tableau nalikuambia asema minakatirisha matableaux mingi eh?
F: mm/
T: sawa vile naliwaza asema non: ce: pour ça nifanye paka hii matableaux: sawa vile unasema niko nakwenda: hakuna mufano: na vile: na: nalifanya hii tableau:
F: mm/
T: kwa kusema ni ku ile nyumba ku palais de la nation: njo kulikuwa mambo ilianza kupita yote/ bali: kama démission ekoako: batamutoshea ku palais de la nation/
F: mm/
T: ni walitosheaka: Ileo: banatosha Adoula: et puis banatosha na:
F: oui/
T: njo kisha k?wanaita Tshombe tuseme/
F: mm/
T: aah/ kisha kuit: kuita Tshombe banachanger na drapeau: ili: ilikuya six étoiles: banakamata ile ya:
F: ile étoile:
T: ya étoile moja: banaweka/
F: na ile barre rouge?
T: ah barre rouge oui/
F: maana yake ya barre rouge: wee unasema nini?
T: ile balisemaka ni: sang ya bamartyrs ya Indépendant/
F: aah/
T: eeh/ mm/ 		18.
T: Hm-mm.
F: Seventy-eight, or is it really seventy-nine already [Painting 80: Tshombe Prime Minister]
F: [So now we get to] Adoula's resignation.
T: Right.
F: I see the Parliament.
T: It's , as I told you before, the Palais de la Nation, right?
F: Palais de la Nation.
T: I think it's on Mount Ngaliema, on top of Mount Ngaliema.
F: No, it's in town.. I told you before that in this series I have been leaving o
T: In town?
F: In town, yes.
T: It's possible, just that in this book they say it's the residence of the president.
F: This [building]?
T: Yes.
F: The Palais de la Nation?
T: Yes. That's what they say in the this book. I think it was Kasavubu['s residence].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Anyhow, I told you about this one, with many paintings I took short cuts, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: When I thought about [this period] I told myself, no, I cannot paint [all the things that happened] when you had told me you were going to leave. There was no way to do it. So I painted this picture.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Because it was in this building, in the Palais de la Nation, that all the events first happened. When there was a resignation they would dismiss the person from the Palais de la Nation.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They dismissed Ileo, they dismissed Adoula, and after that...
F: Yes.
T: ... they called in Tshombe, let's say.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. And after they had called in Tshombe they changed the flag. It used to have six stars, now they took...
F: This star.
T: ...this one star and put it [in the flag}.
F: And this red barr?
T: Ah, the red barr, yes.
F: And what do you say is the meaning of the red barr?
T: They said, it's for the blood of the martyrs of independence.
F: I see.
T: Yes, mm-hmm.
19.
F: bon: donc: ile wakati: Tshombe alikuwa na:
T: makati anaisha kuwa sawa mu busultani:
F: ndiyo/ na: na alikuwa kusumbulia na waBelges juu ya macontentieux/ [Painting 81: Tshombe Returning from the Brussels Talks] sasa ile mallette yake/
T: bon/
F: R. D. C.: ji:
T: re: dese/ erdese/
F: oui/
T: bon: ni kusema République Démocratique du Congo:
F: du Congo/
T: mm/ njo ile balimupatiaka kule alikuyaka/ nazani wee ulisikia mu discours moya ya Président Mobutu alisema: eeeh: yee alisema kwa lakini eh?
F: mm/
T: alisema kulikuwa menteur moya: alitulanda: anatoka mu Belgique: banamwekea mule ndani makaka: yee njo vile alisema eh? alisema paka vile sasa hapa tu/ banamwekea ndani makaka: anakuwa na bo tunaisha asema: mina: isha mambo ya: contentieux/ mais ali...?...
F: baliingia mu ndani ya makaka?
T: non/ makaka: c'est à dire caca: banamwekea buchafu mule ndani: anakuwa kutulanda shee: asema: caca nazani ni mavi/
F: mavi?
T: eeh/ yee alisema vile: si ni politique?
F: eh/
T: ah: alisema vile kwa lakini/
F: baliweka ndani mavi wapi?
T: non: yeye: c'est que umu ndani: yee aliweka mapapiers/
F: eeh/ mu: mu nani: mu diplomate?
T: mu: muko mapapiers/
F: oui/
T: ya ku: mambo ya contentieux/
F: mais Mobutu alisema kama mavi ...?...: [chuckles]
T: mais sasa Mobutu yee pa kusema: alisema vile: apa sasa/
F: aah/
T: asema angaria alikuwa kutulanda asema: juu ya contentieux/ c'était faux/ njo vile alisemaka/
F: [makes an incredulous sound]
T: aah/ ni mapolitique eeh? [chuckles] politique ya ?Mobutu:
F: [reading] trois mois: et je vous donnerai un nouveau Congo/
T: donnez-moi: trois mois/ et je vous donnerai un nouveau Congo/
F: ni vile alisema?
T: yee alisemaka munipe trois mois: mitamipatia nouveau Congo/ nabo balimupatiaka troi mois: marébellions ilitokako: mulikuwa lufu: tout ça/
F: mm/ uliisha kumuona: nani: Tshombe?
T: bien/ bien bien bien/
F: oui?
T: eeh/ alinipaka mukono/ mu ku Zoute: ya Likasi/ tungaliki ?kos5 /
F: aah/
T: eeh/ alinipaka mukono/ sababu kila mara anaanza kuya: nilipashwa kwenda kulamukia/
F: mm/
T: na ba: na mafanfares ya Katanga:
F: mm/
T: sinon minajua mingi sana: hymne nationale yake: naijua yote: bien pa kichwa hata sasa hata ya kuimba: minajua/
F: mm/
T: ah na mimbo ingine mingi/
F: [chuckles]
T: alianza kuya kila mara: anafika kule ku njia ya: route de Likasi: Lubumbashi: anachuka: tunamuona/
F: eyo/
T: mm namuna ongoya tout ça/ ule muntu sikuonaka: paka nani: Lumumba/ sikumuona/ 		19.
F: Fine, so this is the time when Tshombe...
T: ... the time when Tshombe was in office.
F: Yes. And he was talking with the Belgians about the claims [the two countries had against each other] [Painting 81: Tshombe Returning from the Brussels Talks]. Now, what about this attache case of his?
T: Alright.
F: It says R.D.C.
T: [pronounces] re-de-se, er-de-se.
F: Yes.
T: That is to say: République Démocratique du Congo.
F: Du Congo.
T: Mm-hmm. That case was given to him when he went to Belgium. I guess you have heard President Mobutu say recently in a speech...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... that Tshombe was a liar. He deceived us. When he left Belgium they had put a monkey in that attache case. That was his way of saying that the matter of the claims was finished for us. ...
F: They put a monkey inside?22
T: No, caca. That is to say they put caca inside and he came to deceive us -- I think caca is mavi [shit].
F: Shit?
T: Yes. That's how Mobutu put it, it's politics, isn't it?
F: Yes.
T: Yes, he really said that.
F: They put shit inside what?
T: No, no [you don't understand]. Tshombe put papers in this [case].
F: I see, in his attache case?
T: There are the papers....
F: Yes.
T: ... relating to the claims case.
F: But Mobutu said it was shit? [chuckles]
T: That's how Mobutu put it when he made his speech recently.
F: I see.
T: He said: "Look, Tshombe cheated us about the claims, he lied." That's how he talked.
F: [makes an incredulous sound]
T: Well, that's politics, isn't it? [chuckles] Mobutu's politics.
F: [reading] "Three months and I'll give you a new Congo."
T: [completing the inscription} "Give me three months, and I'll give you a new Congo."
F: This is what he said?
T: [translating from French into Swahili] He said: "Give me [in French] three months, I'll give you [in French] a new Congo."23 And they gave him three months: rebellions broke out and there was death everywhere.
F: Did you ever see Tshombe?
T: Yes, [I saw him] him quite close up.
F: Really?
T: Yes, he even shook my hand at the Zoute [the swimming pool] in Likasi where we used to live.
F: I see.
T: Yes, he shook my hand. Every time he came into town I had to go and greet him...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... as a member of the Katanga Fanfare.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I know a lot [about him], his [Katangese] national anthem, all that I know. I have it in my head, I could sing [the anthem] right now...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... and many other songs.
F: [chuckles]
T: Every time he came through Likasi on his way to Lubumbashi he stopped and we saw him.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm. We had to wait for him. But one person I never saw was Lumumba. I never saw him.
20.
F: kumbe vile balifanya élection: [Painting 82: The 1964 Presidential Election]
T: bon: ni pa: ii ni gare ya Lubumbashi/
F: gare ya Lubumbashi minaona eh/
T: eeh/ ile ni avion: inatupa mapapiers/ mm?
F: [reading letters on plane] e: ash: deux ao?
T: ash deux: mais ni kufwata6 tu na mi niliandika/
F: mm/
T: sauti tu ma: tu ma: tu maavions tu aérogare: tout ça/
F: mm/
T: juu ya ile: ilitupa mapapiers: na pa papiers pale baliandika:
F: Conaco:
T: Conaco: bantu unaona beko banafuya bale: bengine banapokelea: maélections présidence: présidentielles/
F: na mu papiers iliandikwa tu ma: ma nini?
T: ilikuwa: non papier iliandikwa mingi: ni kusema votez: Conaco: ni parti yenu politique/ mutaikala bien: votez Conaco: iliimbiwa na mwimbo ya mingi: Franco: ule ya Luambo Makadi/
F: mm/
T: aliimba madisques nayee: muvotez Conaco: ni kweli aliemporter victoire/
F: aah/
T: eeh/ 		20.
F: So then they organized elections [Painting 82: The 1964 Presidential Election]
T: Alright, the scene is in front of the railway station in Lubumbashi.
F: Yes, I see the station in Lubumbashi.
T: Yes. And this is an airplane [circling overhead and] dropping leaflets.
F: [reading letters on plane] "'H 2," right?
T: H 2, but that was on the model I used, so I wrote it, too.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Its what the planes use to announce themselves at airfields.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [The plane] dropped leaflets, papers on which they wrote...
F: Conaco.
T: Conaco. People are milling around, some are catching this campaign material for the presidential election.
F: And what was written on these leaflets?
T: Lots of things -- "Vote Conaco, it is your Party. You will have a good life if you vote for Conaco." And lots of songs were performed, for instance by Franco, who now calls himself Luambo Makadi.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: On his records he sang: "Vote Conaco!" And it's true, Tshombe was victorious. F: I see.
T: Yes.
21.
F: njo quatre vingt et un:
T: quatre vingt et un/
F: quatre vingt deux: itakuwa: rébellion ya Mulelistes/
T: ya Mulélistes eh/
F: [rummaging] Mulelistes/ contre la ANC/ au Kwilu/ [Painting 83: The Mulelist Uprising]
T: bon/ au Kwilu/ kama utakuwa na kya kuniuliza: nitajibu/
F: juu minaona hata ba: sawa baguerriers: beko baMulelistes/
T: baMulelistes oui/
F: habakuwe na ma: ba: bunduki: ao:
T: m: m: apana balikuwa na mflêches/
F: mm/
T: eheh/ njo balianza tu kuua batu/ c'est que balikuwa ma: c'est que baMulelistes kwa kufwata bien: d'après l'histoire: mulikuwa na baJaponais/
F: mm?
T: mulikuwa baChinois: mule ndani/ c'est que njo ilikuwa: armée ya Mulele/ iliravager ile kipande yooote ile/ balikamata mikini mingi: inaenea na kukamata na Kinshasa tu/
F: eyo/
T: eeh/ par la bonne chance: sijue vile ilipitaka: na vile ANC alibafukuza na kubabamba/ na Mulele au lieu kama alikimbiaka mu: kama ni mu Afrique kama ni mu Europe: sais pas histoire: alibambiwa mu Brazza: ni mambo ya bakubwa/
F: mm/ mambo ya bakubwa?
T: ya bakubwa [chuckles]/
F: mambo ya bakubwa/
T: eeh/ tunafika fasi ingine: tunasema mambo ya bakubwa/
F: ...?...
T: ah i: maaffaires ya baautorités: haituangarie/
F: aah/
T: mm/ 		21.
F: This is eighty-one.
T: Eighty-one.
F: Eighty-two, it's going to be about the Mulelist rebellion.
T: Yes, the Mulelist [rebellion].
F: [rummaging] The Mulelists against the ANC, in the Kwilu [Painting 83: The Mulelist Uprising].
T: Fine. In the Kwilu region. If you have questions, I'll answer.
F: I see there are warriors, are they the followers of Mulele?
T: Yes, they are the Mulelists.
F: Didn't they have guns, or...?
T: No, they just had arrows.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, and they began to kill people. But the Mulelists, to be historically accurate, were allied with the Japanese.
F: Mm-hmm?
T: [Or rather,] there were Chinese among them. That was Mulele's army and it devastated that whole area. They took many towns, in fact, they almost took Kinshasa.
F: I see.
T: Yes. But by some chance -- I don't know how it happened -- the Congolese National Army chased them away and captured many. And Mulele, instead of fleeing to some place in Africa or Europe, went to Brazzaville where he was captured. But I don't really know that story well, it is something that regards the big shots.
F: The big shots, eh?
T: The big shots [chuckles]
F: Affairs of the big shots.
T: Well, when we get to certain points we just say: Those are the affairs of the big shots.
F: ...?...
T: Affairs of the people in power, they don't regard us.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
22.
F: quatre vingt trois: rébellion au Congo: [T95]
T: bon/ ni mbele ya monument: ku Kisangani/
F: mm/
T: ku Stanleyville/
F: Boyoma?
T: Kisangani Boyoma/
F: Boyoma/ Boyoma?
T: sawa hivi: nitasema na mufano Mbuji Mayi/
F: mm/
T: c'est que Boyoma: ni kutaya kwa mukini/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: na bo balikuwa tena na ma: étoiles?
T: bo banakuwa na drapeau ya étoile/ vile banaanza kufia bo: banaanzaka kufia paka ile mambo moya unité/ c'est que sasa: bapoliticiens bote balikuwa mu Zaire: mbele ya kufanya politique: banafika paka asema ooh: mambo ya Lumumba njo ilikuwa bien/ puisque alikuwa: bien aimé/
F: mm/
T: alipendewa ku bantu bote/
F: mm/
T: ni vile banaanza kufunga batu: kunywisha essence: unakunywa essence: et puis asema fungula kinywa: kamata alumette kuwakisha: allez: unapasuka/ [voice trailing off] ...?...
F: sawa vile walifanya kule?
T: mm/
F: bazungu ao ba: nani?
T: na bazungu: na batu: surtout batu njo waliwawa mingi/
F: mm/ banani? baMulele?
T: baMulele/ non: balikuwa ba: aikukuwa Mulelistes apana/ balikuwa baNguebe: Soumialot: na eh: na ungine minasahabu jina yake/ mm/ njo banaanza ku: kuua batu/ sababu Nguebe kama njo alikuwa général mi shijue muzuri/
F: mm/ Nguebe/
T: Nguebe/ 		22.
F: Eighty-three, rebellion in the Congo [Painting 84: The Rebellion in Stanleyville.
T: Right. The scene is in front of a monument in Kisangani.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Stanleyville.
F: And what is Boyoma [inscribed on the picture]?
T: Kisangani Boyoma.
F: Boyoma. Boyoma?
T: It's as I say Mbuji-Mayi, for instance.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Boyoma is a name they use in that town
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And there they still had the six-star flag?
T: They did and they died for the sake of unity. Because at that time, before each of them went after his own political interests, the politicians of Zaire would all agree that Lumumba's program was a good one. He was well liked.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: All the people loved him.
F: Mm-hmm.
F: So they began to tie up people and make them drink gasoline. You would drink gasoline and then be told to open your mouth. Someone would take a match, light it and -- just like that -- you would be blown to pieces. [voice trailing off}...?... What they did there, was it aimed at the Whites, or who were the people thy killed?
F: Is that what they did there?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: To the whites, of to whom?
T: To the whites and to the people. Above all, they killed many Africans.
F: Mm-hmm. Who, the Mulelists?
T:: No, not the Mulelists. Those were the followers of Nguebe, Soumialot, and others whose names I forgot; they killed the people. Because Nguebe was some kind of general, but I am not quite sure.
F: Mm-hmm, Nguebe.
T: Nguebe.
23.
F: kumbe vile tunafika: mu: vingt quatre novembre/ [Painting 85: November 24: Mobutu and Party Symbols].
T: bon/
F: quatre vingt quatre: quatre vingt quatre: tunaona Mobutu:
T: bon/ njo ile siku: ii tableau nilifanyaka na: ts: na couleur moya mubayambaya eh? kama una: kama unapanguza na mafuta: ça va/
F: ndiyo/
T: bon/ ilikuya: njo siku le vingt quatre novembre ilikuwa sawa naissance: ya: Sese Seko eh?
F: mm/
T: ya muntu moja Mungu alitutumia she bote tu/ ni vile bantu: shee tunaanza kuespérer asema: ii mwaka peut-être na mi batakuwa kuniua/ sijue/ bababa bote bana...?... kusema tu: hii mwaka shijue kama nitakomesha batoto yangu/ ni kweli tuliona paka: mu le vingt quatre novembre: [claps] Mobutu anakamata pouvoir/
F: mm/
T: tulikuwa na madoutes/ kila muntu yote/ alisema ooh: mais c'est un muKongo: que voulez-vous/ [claps] itakuwa tu: fujo/ bengine asema ooh: peut-être/ mais: atukujue/
F: mm/
T: kweli shiku kidogo: tuliona kama: ni kweli aliweza mambo: sawa vile: tuko naye leo ...?...
F: mm/
T: tuko mu paix: tranquilité: tunaikala bien: sawa vile unakuwa kwako unakuwa kutembelea: niko natembea na nguvu mu njia umu: ?nafukuziwa huku/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ siwaze asema ule atanipika mushale/ shiwaze asema ule atanifukuza: ah ah/ sasa unaanza kutembea tu nguvu: asema niko mu inchi kwa lakini/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: [reading from painting] vive trois zed?
T: vive trois zed: c'est à dire: vive trois Zaire/ Zaire monnaie: Zaire fleuve: Zaire pays/
F: oui/ mm/ ile tuliuza mbele/
T: ah ile: njo shiku tu ya kupatana na mweye/
F: c'est ça/
T: eeh/
F: vingt quatre novembre: ilikuwa tu:
T: vingt quatre novembre: ilikuwa mu septante quatre eh? tuko na:
F: novembre septante trois/
T: ah aha/ alikuwa septante trois:
F: ya mu mwisho ...?...
T: tuko napréparer: bonne année:
F: bonne année: septante quatre/
T: njo minatosha ile eeh/
F: ahah/
T: mm/
F: nazani ilikuwa mu: mu mwisho ya septembre:
T: decembre: ilikuwa decembre/
F: decembre septante trois/
T: mm/ njo ile nalifanyaka juu ya bonne année/
F: mm/ sasa wee uliandika ma: maabréviations: majina:
T: naliandika kule uliniulizaka makati ...?...
F: dix sept janvier?
T: njo siku ya Lumbumba alikufaka ile tableau nalikuonyesha/
F: c'est ça/ na mi: noterie:
T: Maluko ou bien:
F: minoterie Matadi/
T: Matadi: ni bintu ile anaréaliser tuseme: maminoteries ya Matadi: maNsele: dix huit mai: shiku mama: mama Yemo alikufa: mwenye kumuzala: authenticité: Inga: FAZ: Maluku:
F: attends: attends/ généra: Gécamines:
T: oui/
F: eko/ Sonas: eko/
T: mm/
F: Qeloua/ Qeloua?
T: wapi?
F: Qe:
T: Qe: quartier de l'OUA/
F: de l'OUA?
T: mm/
F: ni wapi?
T: quartier ya l'OUA? c'est que cité ya l'OUA/
F: aah:
T: aah/
F: ku Kinshasa kule?
T: bon: Kinshasa/
F: mm/ dix sept novembre: mm/
T: mm/
F: dix sept novembre ni date gani? dix sept novembre/
T: ile ya Lumbumba: eeh: pardon: dix sept novembre: siku ya fête ya: ya bamilitaires/
F: aah/
T: nazani bataifanya sasa/
F: sasa/ mm/ na ma nani: quatre janvier?
T: martyrs de l'Indépendance:
F: dix huit mai?
T: mort ya mama Yemo:
F: eeh/ Inga: Malu:
T: Maluku:
F: Maluku?
T: mm/
F: Maluku njo nini?
T: uliniulizaka tena nashinda kujibu/ or que minafwataka ku radio makati ingine mais nasahabu/
F: aah/
T: ku: iko kintu moya: iko cimenterie?
F: aah/
T: ya Maluku eh?
F: authenticité:
T: mm/
F: FAZ: Sodimiza: KDL: Kamoto: vingt mai/
T: vingt mai: naissance ya MPR/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: la Zairoise: uliweka yote/
T: ni yote tu/ 		23.
F: So, now we come to "November 24" [Painting 85: November 24: Mobutu and Party Symbols].
T: Right.
F: Eighty-four, eighty-four. We see Mobutu.
T: Right, That's the day -- [interrupts himself] I painted this picture with very bad colors; if you wipe it off with oil, it will be alright.
F: Yes.
T: Fine, the day of November 24 marked, as it were, the birth of [Mobutu] Sese Seko...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... a person God sent to all of us. That is what we, the people, began to hope for. [As things were, it was a time when we said:] "Perhaps this is the year when they come to kill me. I don't know." All the parent were saying: "I don't know about this year, will I be able to raise my children? Truly, the only thing we saw was that, on November 24, Mobutu took over.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We had our doubts, every one of us. "Oh well," it was said, "he is someone from the lower Congo, what do you expect? [claps] There will be trouble." Others said: "Oh, perhaps..." But we did not know.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The truth is, we soon saw that he knew how to take control of things, as he does up to this day.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We have peace and tranquility, we live well in our homes and when we travel -- I walk around with strength [no longer fearing] I will be chased away from this place.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. I don't worry that someone will shoot me with an arrow or another is going to chase me. Now you begin to walk with strength, telling yoursel
F: "I live in my own country."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: [reading from painting] "Long live the three Z?"
T: "Long live the three Z?" That stands for Zaire, the currency, Zaire, the river, Zaire, the country.
F: Yes, mm-hmm. This is the first painting we bought.
T: Ah, this one, that was day I met you.
F: That's it.
T: Yes.
F: November 24 -- it was...
T: November 24, it was in '74, right? We had...
F: I was in November of '73.
T: Ah, yes, is was in '73.
F: Toward the end of...
T: I was preparing for New Year's --
F: New Year's of '74.
T: That is when I came up [with this painting].
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: I think it was at the end of September.
T: December, it was December.
F: December '73.
T: Mm-hmm. That is when I painted it, for New Year's.
F: Mm-hmm. Now, you inscribed with abbreviations and names.
T: What I wrote there -- you asked me about it the other time.
F: [What does] "January 17" [refer to]?
T: That's the day Lumumba died [in] the painting I showed you.
F: Right. Then there are the flower mills...
T: At Maluko...
F: The mill at Matadi.
T: Matadi. Let's say those are things Mobutu realized -- the mills at Matadi and Nsele. "May 18" is the day mama Yemo, his mother, died. Then there is "authenticity," "Inga," "FAZ," "Maluku"...
F: Wait, wait. There is "Gécamines" [mining company]
T: Yes.
F: Then there is "Sonas" [insurance company]
T: Mm-hmm.
F: "Queloua," what is "Queloua?"
T: Where?
F: "Qe..."
T: Que...: "district of the OUA [Organization of African Unity].
F: Of the OUA?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Where is that?
T: The district of the OUA? It's the part of town reserved for the OUA.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: Is that in Kinshasa?
T: Right, in Kinshasa.
F: Mm-hmm. "November 17." Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: What kind of date is November 17? November 17.
T: It's Lumumba's, sorry, it the day of the feast of the military.
F: I see.
T: I think, they'll still celebrate it now.
F: Now, mm-hmm. And "January 4?"
T: The martyrs of independence.
F: "May 18?"
T: The death of mama Yemo.
F: I see, "Inga," "Malu...?"
T: Maluku.
F: Maluku?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: What is Maluku?
T: You already asked me and I could not come up with an answer. It's something I once heard on the radio, but I forgot.
F: I see.
T: It's something -- isn't it the cement factory...
F: I see.
T: ... at Maluku, right.
F: "Authenticity."
T: Mm-hmm.
F: "FAZ," "Sodimiza" [real estate company], "KDL" [railway company], "Kamoto" [mine], "May 20."
T: May 20, the birth of the MPR [Mobutu's party, the Popular Movement of the Revolution].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: "La Zairoise" [the national anthem], you put down everything.
T: It's everything.
24.
F: mm/ bon/ kumbe tuendelee: kufika sasa: mu eh: quarante: quatre vingt cinq/ [Painting 86: Mobutu Rolling Up His Sleeves]
T: quatre vingt cinq/
F: si njo retroussons le manches?
T: retroussons: les manches/
F: balikuwa ku: balikuwa ku: kuimba vile/
T: aah: bon/
F: mais hapa: uliweka salongo:
T: salongo alinga mosala/
F: ni kusema:
T: c'est que ni ile siku: alisemaka: [interrupts himself] njo: salongo ya kwanza/
F: aah/
T: c'est que shiku alikamata busultani alisemaka salongo/
F: mm/
T: hata hii safari alifanya mu Chine: c'est que pale alikuya: aina hakukwenda kucopier ma: modèle ya baChinois: non/
F: non/
T: c'est que: alikuwa naye tangu zamani: aliyua tu: alisemaka shiku alikunja mukono: asema tutumikie ni kazi/ njo kusema salongo: alinga mosala/ ni kusema: salongo: ni nkambo yetu moya wa zamani/ kipande ya ba: ya baNgala/
F: mm/
T: ile ba: ni Lingala ile/
F: mm/
T: kulikuwa: salongo alinga mosala/ ilikuwa bakubwa nazani banaanza kusema/ kama atakuambia mutoto yake: anamupa example: ya salongo/ c'est que salongo mutu umu alipendaka kazi sana/
F: mm/
T: ile kazi: iliproduire: alikuvivre bien: sawa vile niko na ?nguvu ya kuletea matableaux: mi sichoke: na mi niko salongo/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: alinga ni: ni:ni:
T: anapenda/
F: aah/
T: alingi: alingi mosala/
F: mm/
T: alingi: mosala/
F: mosala?
T: kazi/
F: kazi/
T: mm/
F: mosala ni kazi/
T: mm/
F: minaona naye bazungu:
T: apana/ hakuna bazungu/
F: hapana?
T: mm/
F: beko bantu/
T: ni bantu/
F: ni bantu/
T: ni baministres: makati balikuwa baministres:
F: na banacheka/
T: badeputés/ balicheka pale baliona: yee anakunja mukono: baliona sawa mambo moya ma: ya mastajabu/ asema minaikunjia nini? na bo asema kumbe tupime: abakujue kama ni kazi ya bumwanaume anatafuta kukamata/
F: mm/
T: kumbe njo mambo inye alibaelezea ni kazi kweli alikamata/
F: hapa minaona anavwala béret/ rouge/
T: béret rouge? oui/ ni para/
F: na hii: ça??
T: ile vilevile ni mainsignes/
F: insignes ya para/
T: eeh/ sawa iko hapa: njo ya parachutistes/
F: aah/
T: sawa muntu wa mapete7 mingi/ ingine: tunashinda na kushinda/
F: mm/ 		24.
F: Mm-hmm. Fine, let's go on. Now we get to forty, sorry, eighty-five [Painting 86: Mobutu Rolling Up His Sleeves].
T: Eighty-five.
F: Isn't this about 'let's roll up our sleeves?"
T: Let's roll up our sleeves.
F: They used to sing this.
T: Yes. Fine.
F: But here [on the picture] you wrote "salongo."
T: [completing the inscription] "Salongo alinga mosala."
F: Which means...
T: Because on that day Mobutu said... [interrupts himself] This was the first salongo [national clean-up day].
F: I see.
T: On the day he took the power he proclaimed salongo.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But it was not something that he copied after his trip to China. He did not copy the Chinese model, no.
F: No.
T: He had the idea long before. On the day when he rolled up his sleeves [lit. bared his arm] he said: "There is work, let's do it." That is the meaning of salongo alinga mosala. Salongo goes back to one of our ancestors, in the Bangala region.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It's in Lingala.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [The saying] was "salongo alinga mosala." I think it was our ancestors who first said it. Some one would teach an example of work to his child and say "salongo alinga mosala," which means that the people here in the Congo loved to work.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And that work was productive, it made you live well. Just as I am working hard to come up with paintings, without getting tired. That is my salongo.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: Alinga means?
T: "He loves."
F: I see.
T: Alingi mosala.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alingi mosala.
F: Mosala?
T: Work.
F: Work.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Mosala means work.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: [going back to the picture] I also see whites.
T: No, there are no whites.
F: No?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: They are people.
T: People.
F: People.
T: The are the ministers at that time...
F: And they are laughing.
T: ... and members of parliament. They laughed when they saw that he actually rolled up his sleeves. It took them by surprise. They told themselves: "What am I going to roll up my sleeves for?" Then they said, "lets try it." But they did not understand that he wanted them to take up a man's work.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So, that is what he told them. He really took up the work.
F: I see that Mobutu wears a red beret.
T: A red beret? Yes, he was a paratrooper.
F: [pointing] And this here?
T: That, too, belongs to their insignia.
F: The insignia of the paratroopers.
T: Yes. This here, it's the sign of the parachutists.
F: I see.
T: He was a much decorated man. [The decorations show] We are the victors/
F: Mm-hmm.
25.
bon: na: tena vile alidéclarer: Lumumba héros national/ [Painting 87: The MPR Makes Lumumba a National Hero] naona unamuonyesha: Mulumba [sic] paka tu: karibu ya ile nyumba/
T: nyumba: ni Lumumba héros national sawa nalikuelezea/ kama uko na kintu ya kuuliza:
F: ici: ku: kama ni ku dirisha: ka: karibu na dirisha minaona:
T: karibu na dirisha aah:
F: muntu/ nsula ya muntu/
T: ya Lumbumba/
F: njo Lumumba?
T: c'est que kama unakwenda ku ile nyumba eh?
F: aah/
T: oui ni kaloko nalifanya na mi kwa lakini kwa kuonyesha/
F: eh/
T: kama unafika ku ile nyumba utakuta banaweka: nsula ya Lumumba/ sasa hata kama unakwenda kesho:
F: eyo/
T: utakuta/ banafanya nsula ya Lumumba: banaandika uku chini asema: banaandika: chini banaandika: le pays: exige: les martyrs/ je me présente le premier/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: je me présente le premier: njo:
T: njo vile banaandika kule chini:
F: maneno ya:
T: ya foto yake/
F: aah/
T: ile alisemaka yee/
F: héros national/
T: sawa ile maavions: ni karibu:
F: mm/
T: ni karibu na kiwanza: avion iko inachuka/
F: mm: ni kuonyesha ...?... karibu na kiwanza/ 		25.
Fine, and then he declared Lumbumba a national hero [Painting 87: The MPR Makes Lumumba a National Hero]. I see that you show Lumumba near that [famous] house.
T: The house. [The picture] is about Lumumba, national hero, as I explained to you. If you have a question...
F: Here, this is a window and near the window I see...
T: Yes, near the window...
F: A person, a portrait.
T: Lumumba's.
F: That is Lumumba?
T: Well, when you go to that house, right?
F: Yes.
T: Well, it is a little trick I used to make [something] visible.
F: Yes.
T: When you get this house -- you can do this tomorrow -- you will find a portrait of Lumumba inside.
F: I see.
T: You'll find an inscription under Lumumba's portrait. They wrote underneath: "A country needs its martyrs, I offer myself as the first one."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: I offer myself as the first one...
T: That's what they wrote there on the bottom...
F: In order too...
T: ... of his image.
F: Yes.
T: Lumumba himself said this.
F: The National Hero.
T: And those planes are to show, nearby there is....
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... there is the airport. One plane is about to land.
F: Mm-hmm. It is to show that [the house] is near the airport.
26.
[rummaging, aside] ...?... fasi ingine: ndiyo/ eeh: kiisha: mercenaires à Bukavu: quatre vingt sept: quatre vingt sept: [Painting 88: The Mercenaries Landing at Bukavu] na bale para banashuka:
T: baparas banashuka bushiku: banashuka mugini ya Bukavu: na vile ...?...
F: uliisha kuona kama sawa vile ba: ba: baparas banatoka mule/
T: aah niliisha kuona/
F: ndiyo?
T: na sawa vile nilikuwa pa Kamina: balianza kufanya maexercises ile kila mara/
F: eeh/
T: beko nakuya banabatupa: naliona bengine baspécialistes banasema baspécialistes: quatre/ banabatupa: banawakisha moto chini/
F: mm/
T: bo banaweka shmoko iko inatoka kidogo lwa tunkuni/ banabatupa yulu: kuliko bale bengine/
F: mm/
T: bale banachuka: banakuwa bote quatre: fasi moja: banachukiaka/ naliona [claps]/ mm/
F: [reading on one of the houses] avenue Kongolo/
T: avenue Kongolo/
F: mu Bukavu?
T: mu Bukavu mm/
F: nabo banau: banaua tu: bamercenaires:
T: banaua batu: banapita:
F: beko na mansula ya: na ya baBelges ao?...?...
T: non/ mais bamercenaires ni kabila yote bataweza kuuza/ même: même Zairois/ ataweza kuwa paka mercenaire: mu Zaire/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/ ni vile eh? mm/ muntu Congolais ya Brazza:
F: mm/
T: ataweza kuwa mercenaire mu Zaire/ hata mi hapa: bon: kama: kama muntu ananiuza:
F: mm/
T: bon: nitaweza kwenda kukombana: niko mercenaire/
F: mm/
T: ah: mercenaire ya kusema ni Belge ou bien: nani: kabila yote/
F: eyo/
T: eeh/
F: banavwala mauniformes yabo/
T: mm/
F: ...?... ts tst [sigh, trail off] mambo ya: ile ilikuwa mu mwaka gani?
T: eh: i: ya bamercenaires? non/
F: ya Bukavu/
T: mercenaires ya Bukavu ilikuwa soixante: soixante s: puisque: Zaire: monnaie ya Zaire ilitoka mu soixante sept eh? c'est que ilikuwa mu soixante sept vilevile/
F: mu soixante sept/
T: mu soixante sept/ 		26.
[rummaging, aside]....getting to another place. Yes, here it is finally, mercenaries at Bukavu, eighty-seven [Painting 88: The Mercenaries Landing at Bukavu]. So the paratroopers are landing.
T: The paras landed at night in Bukavu...
F: Have you ever seen this, paratroopers jumping from a plane?
T: Oh, I've seen it.
F: Really?
T: Because I used to live in Kamina where they had their exercises all the time.
F: I see.
T: They would be dropped. And I saw others that were called specialists. They would be dropped in teams of four to light a fire on the ground.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They would set a fire with branches and smoke would rise. Then [more] would be dropped and come down to join the others.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Those who jumped were four and they landed in one place. I saw it, mm-hmm.
F: [reading on one of the houses] Avenue Kongolo.
T: Avenue Kongolo.
F: In Bukavu?
T: In Bukavu, mm-hmm.
F: And the mercenaries are killing...
T: They kill people who pass by.
F: They have faces like Belgians, or?
T: No, the mercenaries would come from wherever they could buy them, even a Zairian could be a mercenary in Zaire.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes, that's how it is, right? A Congolese from Congo-Brazzaville...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... could also be a mercenary in Zaire. Even I, if someone buys me ...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... I can go and fight as a mercenary.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You cannot say that the typical mercenary was Belgian, they came from all nationalities.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: They wear their uniforms.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: [Sigh, trailing off] Oh, well, all these things -- what year was this?
T: You don't mean the mercenaries [in general].
F: [The attack on] Bukavu.
T: The mercenaries in Bukavu, that was in '60. '60 -- the year when the Zaire currency was introduced was '67. So then it was in 1967.
F: In '67.
T: In '67.
27.
F: quatre vingt huit: tunaona: muzungu ingine: Jean/ [Painting 89: Jean Schramme Flees]
T: Jean/ mais: sababu shkram kama ni: ni jina ile: me shiyue kuita muzuri kwa lakini/
F: Schramme/
T: skram eh?
F: eeh/
T: ah voilà:
F: njo jina yake/
T: njo yee: sasa ni Jean:
F: Jean:
T: alikimbia mu Rwanda sasa wakati njo ...?....
F: balikimbia mu nani: mu char ao?
T: ni mu char eeh/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ ilikuwa ya ba: ANC: sawa bali...?... vingine/
F: bilikuwa kati ya bilima ao?
T: ilikuwa kati ya bilima/ ni njia/
F: mm/
T: ni njia inatoka: ah: iko napita mule/
F: mm/ Schramme/
T: anakimbilia kule sasa: anaacha: mu Zaire: ile drapeau ni ya mu Zaire: pale ni pa frontière:
F: mm/
T: Rwanda: Congo/
F: angaliki?
T: ni Américain?
F: ah non/
T: non: yee Jean?
F: Jean/
T: iko na Bob Denard eko/
F: wapi? ku Belgique?
T: Bob Denard nali: naliona journal moya: ili...?... mu Belgique/ anashimama: ku nyumba hivi mulango/ anashimama/
F: eyo/
T: ah eko tu en vie/ mm/
F: na Schramme vilevile?
T: vilevile iko/
F: [incredulous sound]
T: kulikuwa masoupçons ingine balisema: eko mu Angola: alikuwa kukombana tena mvita/ 		27.
F: Eighty-eight, we see another white man, Jean [Painting 89: Jean Schramme Flees]
T: Jean Skram or something like that. I don't know how to pronounce his name.
F: Schramme.
T: Skram, right?
F: Yes.
T: So, there you are.
F: That's his name.
T: For the moment, he'll be Jean.
F: Jean.
T: He fled to Rwanda at the time...
F: What is this vehicle they were fleeing in, a tank?
T: Yes, a tank.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, from the Congolese National Army.
F: Was this in the mountains?
T: It was a road through the mountains.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It's a road that comes out there and goes on.
F: Mm-hmm. Schramme.
T: He ran away and escaped from Zaire. That flag over there is in Zaire, it marks the border...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... between Rwanda and the Congo.
F: Is Schramme still alive?
T: Wasn't he an American?24
F: Oh no.
T: Jean wasn't?
F: Jean.
T: At any rate, he is alive, as is Bob Denard.
F: Where, in Belgium?
T: I saw Bob Denard in a newspaper printed in Belgium. He was standing in the door of a house.
F: I see.
T: He is alive alright.
F: And Schramme, too?
T: He, too.
F: [incredulous sound]
T: It was rumored by some that he is still fighting in Angola.
28.
F: ... arrestation: à Alger: [Painting 90: Tshombe is Arrested in Algiers] asema ilikuwa tu avion moya:
T: ilikuwa tu avion: mule ndani njo mule eko: sawa vile mi nalikuambia kama nalikatirisha8 / kama ulikuwa mufano ya kuletea: kama ni?...kuleta: namna ile balimubamba:
F: mm/
T: namna ile balimusambishaka mbele ya tribunal:
F: mm/
T: sawa vile balimusambishaka/ ali: bali: tenue ya baprisonniers kule ilikuwa costume bleu:
F: mm/
T: na njo vile ilikuya/ na kisha tu
F: ...?...
T: balitumaka: Nendaka: [interrupt to respond] non: mafotos/
F: mm/
T: balitumaka Nendaka: kwenda kusamba amu: amulete huku:
F: mm/
T: mais: balikatalaka/ kama ni gouvernement baAlgeriens/ siku kidogo tulisikia asema kama: Tshombe anakufa/
F: mambo ya bakubwa/
T: ya bakubwa/ [chuckles]
F: [chuckles]
T: ile ni mambo ya bakubwa sasa/
F: [laughs]
T: ah lala/ kama alikuwa: namna: kama ilikufa namna gani: atujue kwa lakini/
F: hatujue ...?.../
T: kama eko: hatujue/ 		28.
F: Arrest in Algiers [Painting 90: Tshombe is Arrested in Algiers]. There was this plane...
T: There was his plane and Tshombe was inside. But that is one of those short cuts I told you about. If there would be time I could show how they arrested him...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... and put him on trial.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: How they put him on trial and how he was made to wear blue prisoner's clothes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So that is what happened. Then...
F: ...?...
T: ... they sent Nendaka -- no, there are photographs.25
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They send Nendaka, to negotiate Tshombe's extradition.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But that was refused by the Algerian government. Not much later we heard that Tshombe had died.
F: A matter that only regards the big shots.
T: The big shots [chuckles].
F: [chuckles]
T: Nowadays it's the affair of the big shots.
F: [laughs].
T: Well, well. But we don't know how he died.
F: We don't know...
T: Or whether he is alive, we don't know.
29.
F: njo pape Paul: [Painting 91: Pope Paul VI Approves Mobutu's Policies]
T: Paul six/ sawa vile ali: ali: sawa vile alikuwaka mambo ya bubishi ya:
F: oui oui/ ndiyo/
T: ya Malula eh?
F: c'est vrai/
T: akukuwa mufano: Malula alisemaka: aiwezi: minasagaa: ile authenticité/
F: [reading from painting] Tshibangu Tshisuku?
T: Tshishiku/
F: Tshishiku/
T: eeh/
F: Malula/
T: Malula:
F: aah/
T: eeh/
F: kumbe yee: ni kusema: ali: aliitika tu/
T: bon: yee aliitika/ pape alikuwa kuitika: nazani shiku papa alitika: balifanyaka marche au flambeau/ mm: eh: non: marche de soutien/
F: marche de soutien/
T: ah mu Zaire muzhima/ ile wakati pape alitikaka mi niko mu Kamina/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/ c'est que: bantu bote banaanzia kupita mu mbalambala: na kuimba na kuimba: pape anaitikia: pape anaitikia: asema jina ya baZairois: ata banachanger: aina maneno/
F: aah/
T: eeh/ [aside, looking at something on painting] iko: non: aidéranger: inaisha kukauka/ ni couleur moya alikuwa na mafuta/
F: aah/
T: eeh/
F: rouge/
T: ah lala/ non: violet:
F: ...?... violet:
T: ah/
F: juu ya kumuonyesha/ papa/
T: ah voilà/ 		29.
F: So this is pope Paul [Painting 91: Pope Paul VI Approves Mobutu's Policies].
T: Paul VI. There was this conflict with...
F: Yes, I know.
T: ... Malula, right?
F: That's true.
T: It was amazing. Malula kept saying: "This is impossible, I cannot believe this business about 'authenticity.'"
F: [reading from painting] "Tshibangu Tshisuku?"
T: "Tshishiku."
F: Tshishiku.
T: Yes.
F: "Malula."
T: Malula.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: So, so this is to say that [the pope] approved.
T: He went along with it. The pope approved. I believe it was on the day when the pope gave his approval that they organized the Torch Parade, or marche de soutien.
F: Marche de soutien.
T: Everywhere in Zaire. At the time when the pope gave his approval I was in Kamina.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes. What it meant was that all the people marched through the streets, chanting "The pope approves, the pope approves. He has nothing against changing the names of the Zairians."
F: I see.
T: Yes. [aside, looking at something on painting] There is something -- it doesn't matter, it is dry now. There was oil in one of the colors.
F: I see
T: Yes.
F: Red.
T: There you are; no, violet.
F: Violet.
T: Yes.
F: To show he is the pope.
T: There you are.
30.
F: tena: monument ya J: ya: ya : MPR: numéro nonante et un: [Painting 92: The Party Monument at Kipushi]
T: nonante et un:
F: ni paka kuonyesha:
T: ni kuonyesha: eeh: naissa: flambeau ya révolution/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: vile ulisema utaweza kwa: fanya hata: wala ya hapa Lubumbashi:
T: ah nitaweza kufanya Lubumbashi ou bien nitafanya: fasi yote mais sawa minaikala Kipushi: nafanya ya Kipushi/ ou bien kama unapenda kafoto yake nitakuleteako/ ni vile/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ 		30.
F: Then there is the monument of the MPR, number ninety-one [Painting 92: The Party Monument at Kipushi].
T: Ninety-one.
F: It is to show...
T: It is to show the torch of the revolution.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: As you said, you could also do the Party monument here in Lubumbashi.
T: Oh, I could do Lubumbashi, or any place. But I live in Kipushi, so I did the one in Kipushi. If you want I can bring you a small photograph of it. It is just the same.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
31.
F: tena: discours à l'ONU: [Painting 93: Mobutu's Speech before the United Nations Assembly]
T: à l'ONU:
F: ile [rummaging with painting]: tulisumbulia juu ya ile/
T: c'est bon/
F: sawa minaona: donc uliweka ma: kabila yote ku fasi yabo:
T: ku fasi yabo/
F: hapa mu Amérique du Nord ni: ni nani kule?
T: Amérique du: du Sud? non:
F: ? Nord/
T: mule: ni: non: umu ni Amérique? ni: nègres/
F: ni nègres?
T: eeh/
F: ni nègres ...?...
T: Américain/
F: oui oui/
T: eeh/
F: na tena: mu: mu nani? eeh [interrupt conversation and recording] na: Indien? Indien iko na:
T: iko/
F: na nani: na:
T: aah/
F: kichwa yake na:
T: bon/ Indien iko na: bapeaux rouge eh?
F: eeh?
T: bapeaux rouges: eko na ile: maplumes/
F: eko mu Asie?
T: ah mu Asie/
F: kumbe: bazungu:
T: ule ni: jaune:
F: jaune:
T: baChinois baJaponais:
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: na ule ku Océanie?
T: Océanie ni ba: ts: beko: ni bantu meushi tu tuseme/
F: eeh/
T: mais beko na peau moya sawa chocolat/
F: aah/
T: eeh/
F: mm/
T: bale baMexicains: ni ba: ba: ba ba baBrésiliens:
F: ahah/
T: eeh/
F: ahah/ ...?... discours yake:
T: mm/ 		31.
F: And then the speech at the United Nations' [Painting 93: Mobutu's Speech before the United Nations Assembly].
T: At the United Nations'.
F: This one [rummaging], we talked about it.
T: That's alright.
F: As I can see, you put every race of people into their place.
T: Their place.
F: Here in North America, who are those people?
T: You mean in South America.
F: No, North America.
T: There, in America? Those are negroes.
F: Negroes?
T: Yes.
F: Negroes?
T: American[ Negroes].
F: Yes, yes.
T: Yes.
F: And then, where is this? Wait [interrupt conversation and recording] ... And this Indian? The Indian has...
T: He has...
F: On his head he has...
T: Alright, the Indian has a -- they are the redskins, right?
F: Yes?
T: The redskins, they wear those feathers.
F: He lives in Asia?
T: Yes, in Asia.
F: And then the whites
T: [No], that one is yellow.
F: Yellow.
T: Those are the Chinese and Japanese.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And this one in Oceania?
T: In Oceania. Let's say those are dark people.
F: I see.
T: They have skin the color of chocolate.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And over here are the Mexicans and Brazilians.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: I see, so that was his speech.
T: Mm-hmm.
32.
F: tena ni mi: mamesures: [Painting 94: Zairianization]
T: bon/
F: bazungu:
T: c'est ça/
F: banakwenda/ [laughs]
T: bazungu/ mais: sababu na mi nalifanya kwa mbio eh?
F: eeh/
T: shiwezi nakufichika: idée yangu ilikuya kama: nitaweka madame: na batoto: et puis mitaweka: nani: madame vilevile muke yake: na batoto/ ?niliwaza kutengeneza:
F: mais haukukuwa na wakati/
T: sawa vile na mi: shikuwa: ni mimi sasa mutakwenda leo/
F: aaah/
T: aah/
F: nonante deux: mesures du trente
T: nonante deux: oui: mesures du trente novembre/
F: mais Tshiani: juu ya: juu ya nini ulichagula Tshiani?
T: Tshiani: puisque ni: établissement moya minafahumu humu kabisa/
F: zamani ilikuwa nini?
T: Tshiani zamani? non/ sifahamu vile ilikuwa zamani/
F: kumbe wale walikuwa Kasaiens ya zamani/
T: ah ah apana bantu? mi sikujue/
F: na muzungu:
T: ni vile: anaenda:
F: anaenda tu na valise yake/
T: na valise yake: ile bitu yake ilibakia/ mm/
F: mesures/ 		32.
F: Now the measures [Painting 94: Zairianization].
T: Alright.
F: [Against the] whites.
T: That's it.
F: They are leaving. [laughs]
T: The whites. But -- [this is a painting] I did in a hurry, right?
F: Yes.
T: Well, to be honest, I was planning to show both a white woman with her children, [the white man] with his wife and her children. I thought I could still do this.
F: But you did not have the time
T: No, I didn't and you are going to leave today.
F: Aah.
T: Yes.
F: Ninety-nine, measures of 30.
T: Ninety-nine, yes, measures of November 30.
F: Now [reading] "Tshiani," why did you chose this name Tshiani?
T: Because Tshiani is an establishment here that I know quite well.
F: What was it called before [it was Zairianized]?
T: Tshiani? I really don't know.
F: So maybe it had belonged to Kasaian traders.
T: No, not to Africans. I just don't know.
F: And the white man...
T: ... leaves.
F: He leaves with his suitcase.
T: With his suitcase, his possessions stayed behind.
F: The measures.
33.
bon/ ts: sawa vile tunafika ku mwisho: tableau ya mwisho: président: [Painting 95: Happiness, Tanquillity, and the Joy of Living in Peace]
T: bonheur:
F: anatembea na motokari yake/
T: bon: na mukombo ile: bâton pelerin: na chapeau: ya busultani: na abacos:
F: mm/
T: na foulard mu shingo:
F: mm/
T: c'est que sawa anasemaka yee anasema ni authenticité: yetu/
F: mm/
T: ni mawazo ya muntu/ shi kusema puisque: bazungu balileta manguo: shee tunavwala: c'est que haina nani: non: ni mawazo: sawa bo hata balileta: mais tunatengenezayo mu akili yetu na shee/
F: mm/
T: ile ni: insigne unafahamu: justice: paix: travail/ ou bien paix justice travail/
F: mm/
T: na drapeau: na lumière: ni juu ya shee
F: na mwangaza yake ...?...
T: booote: na motokari yake: c'est que ni shee boote: mu ile lumière: inatuangazia/ sawa vile nakuambia paix: tranquilité/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: bon/ bon: tulifika ku mwisho/
T: ahah/ 		33.
F: So we come to the end, last picture. The president [Painting 95: Happiness, Tranquillity, and the Joy of Living in Peace].
T: Happiness.
F: The president drives around in his car.
T: Yes, with his staff, his "pilgrim's staff," his chief's hat, his abacos [suit].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And a scarf around his neck.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That, as he has said, is what our authenticity looks like.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It is an African idea. Just because the Whites brought the material it does not mean that we follow their ideas when we dress. We arrange our dress the way we see it fit.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You know the emblem, "Justice, Peace, Work," or rather "Peace, Justice, Work."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And the flag radiating light. It's about us...
F: Its light...
T: ...all of us. Even the car, it means that we all are in this light that he shines on us, as I said, in peace and tranquility.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Fine. Well, we have come to the end.
T: Yes.
34.
F: aah: ts: nazani tuko tuko: tena na bintu mingi ya ku: kusumbulia juu ya: histoire:
T: eheh/
F: mawazo ingine/ ...?... mara ingine mawazo unaweza kuweka mu tableaux/
T: aah/ sasa sawa histoire inaisha:
F: oui/
T: unata: unatamani: mawazo ingine/
F: non hapana/ minaona/ si vile?
T: ah wee uniambia kama mimi:
F: non: sikukuwa na mawazo ingine mais:
T: oh: mais:
F: utaweza
T: ...?...
F: utaweza kuweka mawazo yote mu tableaux?
T: ah oui/ nitaweza tena/ bashi [chuckles] nitakatala namna gani: njo iko na mi iko natumika: niko nafwata vile/ nitatumika tu kama uko mufano/
F: mais kintu moya nilikuwa kuuliza tena mais: ile kitabu ulisoma/ sawa: mbele ulisema: nilikuwa kusoma kitabu moya ya Français/
T: bon/
F: auteur Français/
T: aah/ ya vie ya Lumumba:
F: ilikuwa: vie ya Lumumba?
T: eeh/
F: ilikuwa nani?
T: ooh: non: ilikuwaka kitabu ya commissaire moya: wa: mapolice eh? zamani/ zamani/
F: muzungu?
T: non: muntu mweushi/ zamani/ sasa: ile kitabu: kilikuwaka na: sawa mukubwa yangu ni ule wa ku Likasi:
F: mm/
T: alikuwa rafiki: njo kumupatiaka/ tukisoma tu kwa shiku: moja/ anabeba na kubeba/ ni ki:
F: nani aliandika hii?
T: ah non/ sikukamataka mais: ile wakati sifahamu/ hapa tena nalikuya: pale nalikwendaka siku moja kwa: Anni:
F: mm/
T: ku bibliothèque yake/ nalikuta tena: ile vie ya Lumumba tena mara ingine/ sasa hapa tu/
F: ku Anni?
T: kwa Anni huku/
F: Anni?
T: unaona nyumba: Anni: huyu nalifansia portrait yake/
F: hapana/ Anni njo nini?
T: Anni?
F: mm/
T: oh: jina yake/ jina ya muntu/ mwanamuke: jina yake ya ...?...
F: ku: ku: ku nani: ku zone gani?
T: [with impatience] ni apa/ ii avenue Biayi/
F: c'est vrai?
T: kuko mu mwisho eh/ uyu Anni nalifansia portrait yake minamuachia: ananiachia m...?...
F: aah: Anni: ule muzungu Anni?
T: aaah/
F: oui oui oui/
T: ts ts/
F: oui/
T: sasa ule: ule kijana ungine Rwandais mulefu hivi:
F: mm/
T: njo alikuwa na ile: kitabu mu: mu nani: mu bibliothèque yake/
F: eyo/ tena ba: bitabu ingine: ulisoma?
T: ah: niisha: niliisha kusoma bitabu mingi: majournaux: tout/ njo ilinipermettre: nifwate sawa vile minakufwatilia/ hata minafwata juste: kuko ingine itakuwa na kosa kwa lakini/
F: mm/
T: mais: mu yangu minaona kama: njo yote na mi nalionaka/
F: mm: unakamata kanotes: unaandika?
T: eh nikamata notes: kama minaona mambo: minakamata notes: kunaisha/ inabakia mu kichwa yangu sasa/ 		34.
F: Ah, well, I think we would still have many things to talks about regarding history.
T: Yes.
F: Other thoughts you could perhaps put into paintings.
T: Ah, right now, the history is finished.
F: Yes.
T: You would like more thoughts.
F: No, I see [what I see], right?
T: Well, you tell me, I...
F: No, I had no more ideas, but...
T: Oh, but...
F: Could you...
T: ...?...
F: You put any thought into paintings?
T: Oh yes. I still could. Come on [chuckles], how could I refuse? It's up to me to work, I could go on. I'll work if you have something [I should do].
F: But there is one thing I wanted to ask you, about the book you read. Because earlier you said, "I read a book by a Frenchman."
T: Alright.
F: A French author.
T: Ah, about the life of Lumumba.
F: So it was the life of Lumumba?
T: Yes.
F: Who was [the author]?
T: Oh, no [that I don't know]. The book belonged to a police officer, right? Long ago.
F: A white?
T: No, a black man. It was long ago. At the moment, the book is with my elder brother [or sister], the one who lives in Likasi.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [The police officer] was his friend, so he gave him [the book]. If we had a day to read it [that was all], then he carried it away.
F: But who wrote this book?
T: Ah, I did not take notes at the time, I don't know [the author]. Just now, when I went to Anni's one day...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... I saw [the book], this life of Lumumba, again in her library. This was just recently.
F: At Anni's.
T: At Anni's here.
F: Anni?
T: You see the house -- Anni, the one whose portrait I did.
F: No. What is "Anni?"26
T: Anni?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Oh, that's her name, the name of a person. A woman, her name ...
F: In what part of town [does she live]?
T: [with impatience]. Here, on Avenue Biayi.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes, toward the end. I did a portrait of this Anni and left if for her. And she left...
F: Ah, Anni. This white woman, Anni?
T: Yes.
F: Yes, yes.
T: [making an impatient noise]
F: Yes.
T: Now, this young man from Rwanda, the tall one...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... he had this book in his library.
F: I see. And were there other books you read?
T: Ah, I've read many books, journals, everything. That was what made it possible to follow a line in what I painted for you. Though, even if I followed the correct line, there will be mistakes in some parts.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But, as far as my contribution is concerned, all that is based on what I saw.
F: Mm-hmm. Do you take little notes, do you write [things down]?
T: Yes, I take notes. When I see something, I take a note, but that is all. From then on its lodged in my head.
35.
F: sasa utaweza kuweka ku matableaux mawazo yako juu ya l'avenir: [claps] du pays?
T: ah ah/
F: tulifika tu hapa sasa:
T: ya avenir du pays?
F: i: ile: bintu bitakayakuja/ [laughs]
T: bon: voilà kwa lakini: unasema mambo ya kweli/ wala apa minakuambiaka: si bongo: ou bien ni juu ya kusema: uni: ni?kuwe tu niko napata makuta/
F: mm/
T: non: ni ile mambo ya kweli na mi minaisha kuona/ avenir: mi naliwazaka avenir: mbele ya wakati unanielezea eh? Sendwe achingaliki muzima/ bon: témoin yangu eh? ni kitabu yangu mi: naliandikaka kitabu: nalianza ile kitabu na miaka: nalianza mu cinquante: c'était en cinquante neuf/ njo nalianza ile kitabu/ bon: naliandika tu shiku moya: ni kusema: kwanzia leo nitaanza vie yangu yote: paka shiku nitakufwaka/ kama minatembea nayo: sawa hivi nakuwa kwako/ mitarudia ku nyumba: minaandika pa papier: leo nalitembea: nalifika kwa monsieur Fabian:
F: hapa sasa unafanya vile?
T: non: sasa ile kitabu ile:
F: oui/
T: ilibakia ku Kamina/ si chance: muloko wangu anakwenda kutumika kule: anabeba ile kitabu: anakwenda nakye ku Kananga/ kikoapo bien/ bon: sasa shiku moya naliandikaka minasema: mu: mu mambo ya inchi eh?
F: mm/
T: minaona ku shiku kidogo itakuya: Janson Sendwe ataweza kufa peut-être: mu hii juma tu/ na ile mambo: ilitokeaka juste monsieur Fabian: shikudanganye:
F: mm/
T: wala shikuseme nikuelezee: na minasagaaka/ sikusema kama niko prophète/ tulishikia shiku mbili banasema: Janson Sendwe banamuua/
F: banamuua/
T: eh: minasagaa kabisa/
F: mm/
T: nasagaa/
F: mm/
T: na ile papier ikoapo/ sawa vile na uko muntu ulifunda mingi: kama unaangaria ata ile bic naliandika nayo: naliandika na encre: ni ya zamani sana/ mais kwa avenir ya pays: nitaweza kuwaza/ nitasema mambo ya kweli ou bien ya bongo/ mais kama niko na chance: utakwendaka kuona na mwee utasema ni [voice trailing off]...?.../ nitapima tu/ njo minawazaka/
F: ndiyo/
T: mm/
F: bon: kama: sawa vile tulisema: [aside] attends: Madame atafika: tusikilizane:
T: très bien:
F: sasa: kwa sasa tunapikia: aksanti/
T: merci mingi ...?...
F: ulitusaidia:
T: c'est ça/
F: tuko na mambo mingi ya kuwaza: na kuangaria:
T: mm/
F: tableaux tunabeba kwetu: tutabakia na: ukumbusho/
T: bon: nasema ni mitabakia na mukumbuo kwenu mingi/
F: eyo/ 		35.
F: Now, would you be able to put into paintings your thoughts about the future of the country?
T: Ah, ah.
F: [From the point to which] we just got.
T: [Thoughts] about the future of the country?
F: Of those things to come [laughs].
T: Fine. Here you say something that is true. As I am talking to you, this is not a lie, nor is because I am telling myself, "I'll make some money."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: No, I have seen those things that are true. The future -- I imagined the future even before you told me to, you understand? It was at a time when Sendwe was still alive. Alright, [you ask who is] my witness? It's a book. I wrote a book. I began with it the years '50, '59. That was when I started this book. Fine, one day I wrote: Starting today I am going to begin [writing about] my whole life, until the day I die. I would walk around with the book, for instance, as I visit you now, and then go back home and write on the paper: "Today I took a walk and got to Mr. Fabian's."
F: Are you still doing this>
T: No, right now, this book...
F: Yes.
T: ...is back in Kamina. It happened because my younger brother went to work there. He took the book along to Kananga. That's where it is, in a good state. Fine. So one day I wrote: "In the affairs of the nation..." Right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: "I see a day will come soon when Jason Sendwe will die, perhaps this week already." And that is exactly what happened, Mr. Fabian, I am not putting you on.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Let me tell you, I was amazed. I am not saying I'm a prophet. But after two days we heard that they had killed Jason Sendwe.
F: They had killed him.
T: I was really amazed.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I was amazed.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And this piece of paper still exists. You are a well-educated person. Look at this pen I am writing with, with ink, it is very old.27 But with regard to the future of the country, I can think. I will speak the truth, or tell lies. But if I succeed, you are going to see and you'll say... ?... [voice trailing off]. That's what I think.
F: Yes.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Fine, as we said...[aside] wait, my wife has come, let's agree on this.
T: Very well.
F: For now, we thank you.
T: Thanks a lot.
F: You have helped us.
T: That's right.
F: We have a lot to think about and to look at.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: The painting we'll take home, we'll keep the memory.
T: Fine. I'll stay with you in memory.
F: Yes.
1 ECS ngazi, "ladder, stairs".
[back to main text]
2 See Lenselear (1983: 459): sambaa, "disperser, s'étendre sur".
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3 Professor Victor Bol, then a colleague at the university in Lubumbashi, for whom Tshibumba also did many paintings.
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4 Luba munyanga (mi) "rammelaar; espèce de crécelle (petite calebasse contenant des noyaux..." (Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 440).
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5 Possibly (with a gesture) comme ça.
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6 Probably kufwata=kufwatula. Or: "following" the model taken for painting the plane.
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7 Lenselaer (1983: p 412), under -peta....Kgw. "pete" = Sw. utepe, "galon indiquant un grade" [stripes indicating a grade].
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8 So here is another 'short cut' picture -- a condensed evocation of a series of events.
[back to main text]
 1 The count is still off by one.
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2 I pronounced the French term as a question and T. thought that I was asking for a translation in Swahili. See also above when I asked about the umbrellas: mamvuli: parapluies.
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3 Here (and a little earlier) T. uses the expression kutengeneza, lit. "to arrange, to put in order". It adds to painting the idea of composition.
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4 In translation this sounds as if T. was not quite sure about the official name. The original show that he corrects himself; he had said congolais and now realizes that armée requires congolaise.
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5 T. had difficulties with the term in French (mukuba is the Swahili word) and now corrects himself.
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6 The subject here is not clear, it could also be the child.
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7 Because of much overlap and unfinished sentences this passage is difficult to follow. T. understood at the time that I was eager to record the song.
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8 This is a tentative transcription to be corrected by a speaker of the language.
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9 It is impossible to sort out the exact references of the terms secession and revolution in this exchange. Most likely T. had in mind the anti-Tshombe faction among the Luba of Katanga.
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10 "They" refers to the other Indian UN soldiers, see below.
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11 This is the "stronger" translation, taking the tu in the verb unatufanya as an object marker. But (see above) it could also be the adverb tu, "only, just", inserted in the verb.
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12 T. is still searching for the right term.
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13 The recording is not clear; it is also possible that T. wanted to say that they quickly rounded up to greet Sendwe.
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14 T. does not complete the sentence. The following passage is freely translated.
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15 I am unable to make sense of the rest of the sentence. In this transcription the verb -sumbulia, "have a conversation", occurs twice but there is not enough syntactic information to tell who converses with whom (T. with this monkeys; other people with T.?).
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16 There was a confusion between jembe, "hoe", and shoka, "axe" or "adze". Both the hoe and the (ceremonial) adze or hatchet have the blade fixed at right angles to the shaft.
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17 I made a mistake in Swahili, using yabo, "their's", instead of yake, "his", but T. understood what I meant.
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18 One needs the picture to understand this. The left frame cuts the "inno" off "cent." T. fills the gap but does not further explain the meaning (a name? a slogan?).
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19 T. at this point uses the general term mayi, "water". So, to be exact, one should perhaps say "a body of water." But in the following he speaks of a river.
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20 T. had used the French "lion", now he gives the Swahili term.
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21 My guess at the enigmatic phrase kwanza kwake.
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22 Totally botched sentence in the original. It should have been: baliingisha makaka ndani? did they put a monkey inside? But the whole exchange is based on a misunderstanding on my side. T. is being polite when he uses the French (baby-talk) caca for excrements, shit. Together with the plural/collective prefix ma- this sounds to me like makaka, sometimes heard for French macaque, "monkey", a derogatory, racist term.
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23 Throughout, T. occasionally took questions I pronounced as "fillers," as requests for translation. This one is linguistically interesting. It is not so much a translation but a paraphrase with only the verbs changed from French into Swahili.
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24 T. had understood my question, angaliki, "is he alive", as something like ni giliki, "was he a Greek?" Hence his response.
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25 T. interrupts his statement to respond to a question I must have asked (incomprehensible on the tape) about the source of his knowledge.
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26 My question shows that I still wasn't sure whether this was a person's name or some acronym.
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27 A cryptic statement. I think T. here calls on his old pen as a kind of witness for the fact that he has been a writer for a long time.
[back to main text]

References

Lenselaer, Alphonse. (1983). Dictionnaire swahili-français. Paris: Editions Karthala.

Van Avermaet, E. and B. Mbuya. (1954). Dictionnaire kiluba - français. Tervuren: Musée Royale de l'Afrique Centrale.

[Introduction]

[First Session, Part 1]

[First Session, Part 2]

[Second Session, Part 1]

[Second Session, Part 2]

[Third Session, Part 1]

[Fourth Session]

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© Transcript & Translation by Johannes Fabian
Archived: 6 June 2000
Revisions: 24 August 2001 (lay-out of toc changed, APS Volume number added), 31 October 2001 (ISSN added)