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ISSN: 1570-0178

Volume 2, Issue 3 (12 May 1999)
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The history of Zaire as told and painted by Tshibumba Kanda Matulu in conversation with Johannes Fabian

 

Introduction

First Session, Part 1

First Session, Part 2

 

Second Session, Part 1

Second Session, Part 2

Third Session, Part 1

Third Session, Part 2

Fourth Session

 

First Session, Part 2

TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE
1. Session of October 6, 1974 continued
Explanations 		TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE
1. Session of October 6, 1974 continued
Explanations
1.
F: na: sasa: mbio mbio: [?au moins]: turudie ku: ku mwanzo:
T: ...?... [covered by rummaging with paintings] usipoteze/
F: mwanzo vile: sawa vile tulisema:
T: coupez d'abord/
F: juu: ya: kukuuliza: ya madetails/
T: mm/
F: maneno: unaona mabintu mingi ku: ku tableau [more rummaging: recording interrupted] bon: tuendelee donc na ma: explications:
T: explications ni wee utaanza kuniuliza/
F: ndiyo nitaku: nitakuuliza: juu ya matableaux: ile matableaux tulisumbulia naye: juu ya adisi yako/ Zaire/ 		1.
F: And now, let's do this quickly, if possible, and go back to the beginning.
T: ...?... [phrase covered by rummaging with paintings] don't waste [the tape].
F: To begin with, as we said...
T: Stop [the recorder] first1.
F: ... about asking questions on detail.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Because you can see a whole lot of things in a picture [more rummaging: recording interrupted]. Alright, let's get going then with the explanations.
T: You can ask me about explanations.
F: Yes, I'll ask you about those pictures that were the subject of our conversation about your story [of] Zaire.
2. sasa: tunataka ku: kujua mwanzo/ sawa vile tunaona hapa: ni tableau ya: paysage [Painting 1: Landscape]/
T: paysage/
F: mm/ naaa: ts: nazani minasikia yote: minaona bantu banakamata: samaki: mukini: pori: kama haina kulumbata: ule muntu sijue:
T: eheh/ anakwenda ku maji/
F: ef: alafu: juu ya nini uliweka paysage mu mwanzo?
T: ku mwanzo naliweka paysage: juu ya kuonyesha kama: na shee ku mwanzo tulikuwa na: bankambo yetu/
F: mm/
T: balikuwa pa mukini yetu: tulikuwa na mukini yetu/
F: mm/
T: tulikuwa na mawazo yetu ya kujenga/ [claps his hands]
F: mm/
T: tulikuwa na namna yetu ya kuikala: ya kula: ya kuvwala:
F: mm/
T: vile/ njo inaonyesha paysage/
F: [interruption]...?... mimi: nilishang: nilishangaa kiloko maneno unasema: paysage ni kintu ya sasa/ alafu minaona kama wee: mu mawazo yako ni sawa kintu ya zamani/
T: mi ku mawazo yangu paysage ni kintu ya zamani: na ni kintu ya kwanza tu/ kwa peinture mais: tunajua bazungu njo balileta peinture/ et puis mawazo ya bazungu: njo minaisha tu napenta/ na tunapenta ile mambo yetu na shee tulionaka: ku peinture/ paysage ni kintu ya kwanza: ku histoire ya Zaire/
F: mm/ 		2. Now we want to know about the beginning. What we see here is the picture of a Landscape [Painting 1: Landscape].
T: A landscape.
F: Mm-hmm. Yes, well, I think I understand just about everything. I see people catching fish, a village, the bush. I don't know, isn't it hunting what that man does?
T: No, he goes to the water.
F: But, why did you put a landscape at the beginning?
T: I put a landscape at the beginning to show that, in the beginning, we had our ancestors.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They lived at our village; we had our village.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We had our ideas how to build [houses]. [claps his hands]
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We had our way of living, how to eat, how to dress.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This is what the landscape [painting] shows.
F: [interruption] ...?... I was a little surprised because, earlier, you said that landscape paintings are a recent thing. But now I see that in your thoughts it is like something of the past.
T: In my thoughts, a landscape painting is something of the past; in fact it is the very first thing. As regards painting -- of course we know that the Europeans brought painting. So, in the end, I follow an idea of the whites' when I paint. But, when we paint, we depict matters that regard us and that we have seen. The landscape is the first thing in a History of Zaire.
F: Mm-hmm.
3. tena twiko na: na tableaux mbili: [taking up paintings] mm: mwenye kuonyesha: bantu: hapa ngambo ni chef [Painting 3: Traditional Chief]: hapa ni: kama ni:
T: ni bantu:
F: bwa: bwana na bibi...
T: na bibi:
F: sijue:
T: ni kweli/ bale: bwana na bibi: ni baAfricains/ [Painting 2: Ancestral Couple]
F: baAfricains/
T: mm?
F: eeh/
T: na minazania kama ni bantu ya mu Afrique du Sud/ bon: au lieu ya kuf:
F: ulifwata modèle: ulipata modèle?
T: nilipata modèle oui/ ii: kwa matableaux yote:
F: mm/
T: nalitumika: bila ya kutumia foto: ata moja apana/
F: hapana?
T: ile tu ii: ni ii/ nalitumia foto/
F: foto/
T: na ile kitabu niko naye kwangu/
F: mm/
T: bon/ nazania ii: ni kusema namna muntu alikuwa zamani/ kuvwala kwake/
F: mm/
T: bon alianza kuvwala nayee mawazo yake/ nazania kama: balimuachilia na sasa hapa: kama aliweza kuchanger asema non: [claps] ça: nataka kufanya mbele ii style ii: ikuye namna ingine/
F: mm/
T: ou bien: ii style namna ingine/
F: mm/
T: mais sawa balikuwa kutucoloniser: et puis maidées yote ilipotea: mais: sasa tuko navwala: namna ya: kizungu/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ c'est que mawazo yetu ilipotea pale/
F: mm/ kumbe ile ina: inaonyesha: sawa zamani ...?... mawazo...
T: namna ya kuwvala vile tulianza kuvwala: tulianza kusumbulia na shee: tulikuwa na sentiments na shee vilevile/
F: mm/
T: tulianza kusumbulia na babibi: petu/ tulikuwa bantu/ 		3. Then we have two paintings [taking up paintings]. Mm-hmm. They show people. On this side there is a chief [Painting 3: Traditional Chief], and here, maybe there are
T: It's people.
F: Husband and wife...
T: And wife.
F: I don't know.
T: Really, these [people], husband and wife, they are Africans [Painting 2: Ancestral Couple]
F: Africans
T: What do you think?
F: Well, yes.
T: I think they are people who live in South Africa. Alright, instead of foll...
F: You followed a model; did you find a model?
T: Yes, I found a model. All the pictures...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I worked on them without using a single photograph.
F: No?
T: Only this one. This is the one where I used a photograph.
F: A photograph.
T: And this book I have at home.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright, I think that long ago the [black] man dressed in his way.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Fine, he began to dress according to his ideas2 I think had they left him alone, here and now he could change [claps]. "No," he would say, "first I want to do this style. It should be different."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Or this other style.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But they came to colonize us, and then all the notions [we had] were lost. Nowadays, we dress the way the Europeans do.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, because our thoughts were lost then.
F: Mm-hmm. So this [painting] shows how in the old times ....?... thought...
T: ...how we dressed in the beginning; how we talked to each other; and how we, too, had feelings.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: At home we would speak with our wives. We were human beings.
4.
F: na: chef? [back to Painting 3]
T: chef: zamani: tulikuwa na busultani yetu/ tulikuwa na gouvernement/
F: mm/
T: ii banaita sasa gouvernement/ na shee tulikuwa nayo/ tulikuwa na mugini: na she tu: tuko naji: najigouverner/
F: mm/
T: tulianza kulipisha maimpôts/
F: ndiyo/
T: impôt ilikuwa namna ya kulipisha kwa impôt ilikwa kama tunakwenda: par example: tutaweza kuua kashia/
F: mm/
T: ku pori/ sawa vile: unona bantu banabeba kule?
F: mm/
T: ile nyama: a: ana bo banyewe batakulya apana/ ile nyama: batakuya naye batakata: mukulu1: bataenda kupeleka nayee: kwa chefu/
F: kwa chefu/
T: wote ule wataweza kuua kintu: kilikuwa na chefu yetu/
F: mm/
T: tunaanza kujigouverner: na tulikuwa na mawazo yetu/
F: mm/
T: ah: ni ile/
F: minaona: njo mugini? bale banarudia na kashia moya:
T: ahah/
F: hapa: julu?
T: ni muntu alitosha muhogo yake yulu:
F: banatosha:
T: juu ya kutwanga: sawa vile unaona bibi eko anatawanga pale chini na mutoto:
F: mm/
T: katoto keko anacheza:
F: mm/
T: ni juu ya kulya: kulya: mangaribi ou bien midi: chakula yetu vile tulikuwa naye/ na sasa tuko naye: ni bukari/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: vile ni mugini/ na chef: eko anavwala manguo yake/
T: aha/
F: sasa: maana yake ya manguo/ minaona: mbele eko na: na shoka moya/
T: shoka: ni busultani/
F: busultani/
T: njo kwetu kote tu/
F: ku mu...
T: ata sasa hapa/
F: ku maana mu...
T: ata ku mukono/
F: ku mukono:
T: ou bien: ku nani: chef anapashwa anakuya: na ile: shoka/ kwetu shee ba: Kasai tunaitaka tshilonda: tsha bumfumu/
F: mm/
T: c'est que tshilonda tsha bumfumu: kama hauna na ile: ?ah c'est que hauna sultani/ sawa mambo moya mbele ya ?ucheko ya kuenea kusema: kama uweze kusoma kitabu ya Tintin:
F: mm?
T: kama ilitaka ni kama ni: sheptre: ou kama ni skeptre: septre:
F: sceptre/
T: sceptre eh?
F: ah/
T: totokar/
F: mm/
T: unaona les: rois/ unaona eko na: kontoo2 yake eh?
F: mm/
T: wakati balimuiba ile: namna ya kijiprésenter kesho ku bapeuple: akukuwa mufano/
F: mm/
T: kama Tintin hakufanye nguvu ya kupata ile nkontoo:
F: mm/
T: kama: ilikuwa nguvu eh?
F: mm/
T: voilà na shee njo vilevile/ tunaikalaka kwetu na shee na busultani tangu bankambo/ ni: ile jembe/ shoka/
F: tena:
T: chapeau: ni chui: ni ngozi/ ngozi ya chui/ par example leo/ kwa kuwaza ile mawazo:
F: mm/
T: Mobutu/ unaona anavwala ile: chui/
F: mm/
T: ni ile moya ile/
T: ile/
T: ni tangu bankambo/ ilikuyako/ haina mawazo yake ni tangu bankambo ilikuyako/
F:..?.. ile:
T: ile ni mubela/
F: mubela?
T: mubela/
F: mubela/ kauri/
T: mm: ile kidogo mweupe eh:
F: eh/
T: ahah/
F: mubela/ inaone: inonyesha nini?
T: ni paka maana: ni njo asema ornement ya chapeau:
F: mm/
T: ya busultani/ [chuckles] eh/
F: sasa minaona hapa: hapa:
T: ile chaîne:
F: chaîne na:
T: voilà: chaîne na: mpalata/ tu..?.. asema palata/
F: palata/ ...?...
T: mais normalemen
T: oui c'est vrai:
F: mpalata/
T: tableau: minaexpliquer: makati ya bankambo:
F: eh/
T: mais nalikutola: naliweka na wakati: ya bazungu/ puisque wakati wazungu walikuya: balitosha ile munyololo:
F: mm/
T: busultani wote/ asema ni mpalata ya busultani/
F: na ku mikono?
T: ku mikono ni minyànga/
F: minyana/
T: raphia/
F: mm/
T: raphia/ ni ile banaanza kuweka: eko navwala/
F: bon: chef/
T: mm/
F: na nguo moya:
T: ile ni ngozi/
F: ngozi?
T: ngozi ya nyama/
F: ngozi ya nyama anavwala juu/
T: anakamata anavwala juu/
F: juu/
T: mm/
F: na chini? ni kikwembe ao?
T: ni minyànga tena mweupe/ kuko minyànga kwetu mweupe/
F: minyànga3/
T: raphia/
F: raphia/
T: eeh/ mweupe/
F: ni nyama vilevile/
T: eeh/
F: eeh/
T: ndani unaona ngozi ya chui/
F: eeh/
T: na utaweza kuweka yulu/ kama anatosha sawa ni kuvwala kwa nguo/ sultani wote yapashwa ...?...
F: hii ngozi ni nani:
T: ...?... chui/
F: ngozi paka ya:
T: ngozi ya nyama/
F: ya nyama paka/ nyama ya pori/ aah/ tena eko na: chef eko na nani: na:
T: na ma: tatouages quoi/
F: tatouages?
T: aah/
F: ni njo nini mu Swahili?
T: ni kweli/ ni: njoloko/
F: njoloko/
T: ni kintu ya kwetu/
F: mu: njoloko ni mu: mu: mu Tshiluba?
T: mu kiSwahili/
F: mu kiSwahili?
T: eeh/
F: njoloko?
T: njoloko4/
F: aah/
T: eeh/ ilikuya beko nakata: c'était la beauté eh? ilikuwa beauté/ njo beauté ya baZairois:
F: beauté/
T: ya baAfricains tout court/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: sawa: kama una: unaona: minaona mara ingine wanamuke beko naye: na mistari vile/
T: bon/ bale:
F: ina: inaanza tu mbele: ina:
T: bon/
F: le nez c'est quoi? le nez?
T: mpua/
F: mpua?
T: eeh/ inakamata na mpua/
F: inashuka: inakamata:
T: na mu mpua/
F: mpua?
T: eeh/ bon/ njo kusema: bale: beko na mwaka ile balikomea/ ile mwaka: balianza: kukata/
F: mm/
T: sawa vile bazungu balikuwa kuingia: da: civilisation yabo balileta: balikatala ile yote:
F: mm/
T: bon na shee sasa ba: sasa tunaanza kuona kama tunaona muntu anafanya vile asema: ts: ooh iko haya/ mufano mubaya/ mais bankambo ilikuya njo beauté/
F: mm/
T: eh/ beauté sawa: beauté culturelle/ tu ..?.. nkambo/ ni culture yetu/ ni ilikuwa mambo yetu: ile twiko nayo ya bankambo/ eeh: bon/ [Notice that Painting 4: The Three Magi that follows here in the series was not commented on in this conversation.] 		4.
F: and the chief? [back to Painting 3]
T: As to the chief, in the old days we had the office of chief, we had government.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: What they call government nowadays, we also had it. We had the village and we governed ourselves.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We [even] began to require payment of taxes.
F: Yes.
T: The way to collect taxes was this: For example, we could kill an antelope.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: In the bush. Do you see there [in the picture] people who carry [something]?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This animal, they are not going to eat it alone. They will cut up the animal they come [back] with and they will bring a leg to the chief.
F: To the chief.
T: Of whatever they would kill, a piece was reserved for our chief.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: From the beginning we governed ourselves; we had our own thoughts.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's how it was.
F: What I see here, is this a village? There are some who come back from the hunt with an antelope.
T: Yes.
F: [And] up there?
T: There is a man spreading manioc up there [on a roof].
F: They are spreading.
T: It will be pounded, as you can see his wife pounding the below, and there is also a child.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The little child is playing.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The wife is preparing the evening or midday meal. It is the same dish that we eat today, bukari.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: So this is a village and a chief who dressed in his [chief's] attire.
T: Yes.
F: Now, the significance of the attire. What I see first he has a hatchet.
T: The hatchet of the chief's office.
F: The chief's office.
T: This is how it is everywhere among us.
F: On the...
T: Even nowadays.
F: And what is the meaning of [these things] on...
T: On his arm.
F: On his arm.
T: Let me put it this way: The chief must have this hatchet. At home, we people from the Kasai usually call it tshilonda tsha bumfumu [hatchet of the chief's office].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Because if you don't have the tshilonda tsha bumfumu, if you don't have it, well, then you are not a chief. Is this not like one thing that makes us laugh a lot as you can read in a book about Tintin.
F: What?
T: What he was after was the scepter, or something like "skepter" or "septer."
F: Scepter.
T: Scepter, is it?
F: Yes.
T: "Totokar."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You see the kings. You see [a king] has his [?scepter] , no?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: When this was stolen he couldn't present himself to the people next day, no way.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: If Tintin had not made every effort to get this [?scepter].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It was difficult, right3?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You see, it was the same with us. Since the time of the ancestors we had the office of chief. That is what this hoe, or rather, hatchet [signifies].
F: Then...
T: [There is] the head dress, it [from a] leopard, it skin, leopard skin. For instance, today, when you think of this...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You see Mobutu wearing this leopard [skin hat].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Is the same as this one.
F: This one.
T: It comes from the time of the ancestors. He did not think it up, it existed since the time of the ancestors.
F: ....?... this.
T: This is mubela.
F: Mubela?
T: Mubela.
F: Mubela. Cowrie4.
T: Mm-hmm, the small white ones, right?
F: Yes.
T: Aha.
F: What does the mubela signify?
T: It's just a decoration on the hat.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [It goes with] the office of chief [chuckles].
F: Now, I see here...
T: This chain.
F: A chain and...
T: There you are, a chain and a medal/ ...?... let's say a chain...
F: A medal …?…
T: Normally, yes, it's true …
F: A medal.
T: The picture, let me explain, is of the times of the ancestors.
F: Right.
T: But the way I presented it, I placed it in colonial times5, because it was when the whites ruled that this chain was invented.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [For] all those [who held] the office of chief; it's the medal of the office of chief.
F: And on the arms?
T: On the arms, these are minyanga.
F: Minyana6.
T: [Made of] raffia.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Raffia. This is what they put on, he wears it.
F: Alright, that was the chief.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: And then there is a piece of clothing...
T: That is a skin.
F: A skin?
T: An animal skin.
F: He is wearing an animal skin on top.
T: He takes it and wears it on top.
F: On top.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: An below? This is a wrap, or?
T: This is again a white minyanga [raffia skirt]. In our country we have white raffia skirts.
T: Raffia.
F: Raffia.
T: Yes, white.
F: This is also an animal7 [skin].
T: Yes.
F: Yes.
T: There, inside, you see [a piece of] leopard skin.
F: Yes.
T: You can put it on top. ? When he takes it out it is to wear it like a piece of clothing. Every chief has to ...?...
F: This skin, what is it...
T: ...?... leopard.
F: Just a skin...
T: An animal skin.
F: Just an animal [skin]. A wild animal. I see. Then, the chief also has...
T: Tattoos [tribal marks on the face].
F: Tattoos?
T: Yes.
F: What are they called in Swahili?
T: Indeed [there is a word], it is njoloko.
F: Njoloko.
T: It's something we have in our country.
F: Njoloko, is this in Tshiluba?
T: It's in Swahili.
F: In Swahili?
T: Yes.
F: Njoloko?
T: Njoloko.
F: I see.
T: Yes, they used to make cuts. It was a matter of beauty, right? It was beauty, the beauty of the Zairians...
F: Beauty.
T: ...or simply of the Africans.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: One sees, I see sometimes women who have these lines.
T: Alright, those [women]...
F: They [the lines] start in front, they ...
T: Alright.
F: What do you call "nose?" "Nose?"
T: Mpua.
F: Mpua?
T: Right, they start on the nose.
F: They run down along...
T: ...the nose.
F: Mpua8?
T: Yes. Alright, that is to say, during the years when [the girls] grew up, they began to cut [those lines].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: When the whites occupied [the country] and brought their civilization, they prohibited all these things.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright, the way we look at it nowadays we consider it shameful if a person follows that custom; it's something bad. But [in the times of] the ancestors it was a matter of beauty.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, a matter of beauty, of cultural beauty, among the ancestors. It's our culture. It was something that concerned us, we had it from the ancestors. Yes, well. [Notice that Painting 4: The Three Magi that follows here in the series was not commented on in this conversation.]
5.
F: ehm: [taking up Painting 5: Diogo Cão and the King of Kongo] sasa ni: Banza: Kongo/ Banza Kongo: ile scène: ts: mi sina ma: maulizo/ alafu hii: sawa tuone mbele kama anavwala nini/
T: Banza Kongo:
F: yee: minaona: eko na: chapeau...?...
T: bon/ Banza Kongo: ni muntu moja:
F: mm/
T: ali: juana na bazungu tangu zamani/ na kama muntu anasema kama Diego Cao njo alikuwa muzungu wa kwanza kufika ku: kwake:
F: mm/
T: ku Congo: hapana/
F: hapana/
T: yee alikuwa muntu: alianza kusikilizana na batu/
F: mm/
T: ni muntu: hata nguo ile aliweza kuvwala: ni nguo ilitoka ku bulaya/
F: ile nguo ile?
T: kweli/
F: ahah anavwalaka: anavwalaka:
T: alijuana sana: alijuana tangu zamani: na batu/
F: eeh/
T: na kama minawaza: kama una: kama unapenda: kutosha mu: ni paka mu histoire mais:
F: mm/
T: nitaweza kuletea tableau moya: mu ile kitabu nalionaka: ou bien mu mawazo: mufano alikuyaka/
F: mm/
T: alianza kuvwala nguo muzuri sana: ao utaweza kuitikia eko wakati ya baSalomon:
F: mm/
T: wakati ya ba: nani: ts: quoi? Roboam: tout ça eh?
F: mm mm/
T: baRoboam eeh/
F: mm/
T: yee anaanza kuvwala ile manguo/
F: na chapeau yake?
T: na chapeau yake/ na ni muntu alianza kuweza kunuya5: hata mu ile kikombe/ eh quoi: coupe eh?
F: mm/
T: alianza kunuya mu coupe: hii en bronze: ou bien: en cuivre:
F: mm/
T: aah/ alikuwa muntu mwenye kujulikana sana: na zaidi/
F: tena anavwalaka:
T: ile ni minyanga/
F: minyanga/
T: ya raphia/
F: raphia?
T: ah raphia/
F: hii?
T: eh/ ni raphia/ aliweza kuipitisha hivi: inapita hivi/ na sasa nazania: kama una: par example ka: sawa: sawa jana wee ulikwenda ku nani: ku kiwanza ya nani: Mobutu eh?
F: eeh/
T: ku troisième jeu Zairois/
F: aah/
T: aah/ kulikuwa batoto balianza kucheza kidogo na bakubwa: balivwala ile bitu/ banapitisha hivi: banapitisha hivi:
F: kreuz und quer über die Brust: gefaltet/
T: eeh/ eh/ eh/
F: na tena ma: na maanneaux: hapa mu: mukono/
T: bon/ ile iko bikomo/
F: bikomo/ bracelet/
T: eeh/ bracelet/
F: bikomo/
T: kwetu kabisa kabisa: njo ...?..
F: ya: ya: ya: ya nani6? ya shaba? ya m: ya cuivre?
T: ya: ilikuwa: peut-être ilikuwa cuivre?
F: mm/
T: ou pas: s: suivant l'histoire/ mais tuliona basultani yetu bote balipenda: kikomo/
F: kikomo/
T: ata sasa/ kama unaangaria sultani wote iko paka na kikomo/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: tena: eko na nani?
T: mukombo/
F: mukombo?
T: mukombo/
F: le bâton/
T: sawa Mobutu eh?
F: ah/
T: unaona eko naye/ iko: juu ya yetu ya busultani/ tangu bankambo/ ni mawazo: ile mawazo yote na yee ana: kamata:
F: mm/
T: iko mawazo kabisa kabisa paka ya bankambo/
F: mm/
T: kwa sababu: tangu bankambo ilikuwa paka ile muti/ utamuona ata muzee ata kijana/ unaona paka muti ile/ kama anaweka yulu: voilà: bantu banaitika/ ah: sultani/
F: tena:
T: batu/
F: bale bantu ku:
T: bon/ bale batu ni batu ya chef/
F: ngambo ya: mwanaume/
T: eeh/ le corps: eh eh: le garde corps/
F: garde corps?
T: eeh/ aikuwe moya: ilikuwa mingi/
F: eeh/
T: na bo habawezi anangalia chef ku macho hivi hapana/
F: eeh [rummaging] not on the paintings7 eh? Ilona Szombati: mm/
F: bon/
T: habawezi kuangalia chef ku macho hapana/
F: bon/ oui/
T: yapashwa bote baikunjame chini/
F: mm/
T: sawa vile unaona banakunjama/ ni paka chini tu/
F: paka chini/
T: akuna muntu ataweza kuangaria chef/
F: eh/
T: iko sawa vile Lumpungu mwenyewe ule bali: tundikaka/
F: ah oui/ ...?...
T: yeye: kama: pale alianzaka kuya: kama anatoka kwake ku nyumba/
F: mm/
T: muntu yote: ata wapi: hata wapi/ kama unashikia asema Lumpungu eko kule: wee una: paka pale unaikala: unaangaria paka chini: na saa ile atapita/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ apa: mais ana: nazania ule balitundikaka ni Lumpungu wa kwanza/ [claps] eeh/
F: tena minaona: kama ni sawa: lupango ule/
T: lupango?
F: hii/
T: kule ni ku nyu: ni ku: ni ku nyumba yake: nyumba yake iko huku/
F: aah/
T: kule ni mbele ya:
F: mbele ya nyumba yake/
T: ya lupango/
F: ahah/
T: eeh/ iko sawa vile prise: ya foto:
F: eeh/
T: eeh/ muntu: unakuwa mu lupango ya muntu: sawa vile niko huku: minakuwa huku wee uku kule eeh/
F: ndiyo ndiyo ...?...
T: sawa vile ilikuwa tu ni ku bahari/
F: mm/
T: yee aliyenga paka ku maji tu/
F: ni bahari ao ni: ni mutoni?
T: ni bahari/
F: hii ni bahari? ile naona:
T: bahari: ts: fleuve:
F: aah:
T: ni: jito/
F: jito/
T: jito/
F: wa mutoni?
T: mutoni/
F: mutoni ni fleuve kule?
T: ni Congo/
F: bon/
T: jito/
F: jito/
T: eeh/
F: bahari: ni la mer?
T: kuko mutoni: jito: na bahari/ bahari ni mer/
F: mm/
T: océan: ni océan/
F: kiziwa?
T: apana: océan ni océan/ kiziwa ni kale kwetu kadogo sawa vile kizhiba/
F: [laughs]
T: eeh/ mm/ bon: tuendelee/
F: kumbe ile: ile ni: ni bahari?
T: ni bahari/ ...bantu banakamata...
F: na bale banakamata samaki..
T: ...samaki:
F: eheh/
T: banatupa makila: njo kukamata: samaki/ ni ..?...
F: sasa minaona: kama unafwatika:
T: eheh/
F: mara ingine unafanya d'après: Tshibumba: na hapa minaona: oeuvre du peintre: Tshibumba/
T: ile aiuzhe apana/ aina mubaya/ ni muzuri/
F: ndiyo/
T: wala naandika oeuvre: ou bien naandika: eeeh: d'après:
F: eh/
T: ou bien naandika tu: Tshibumba: aina maneno/
F: eeh/
T: ahah/ 		5.
F: Well [[taking up Painting 5: Diogo Cão and the King of Kongo], now it's Banza Kongo. Banza Kongo, I don't really have a question about that scene, except -- let's take a look at what he wears.
T: Banza Kongo.
F: He wears a hat.
T: Alright, Banza Kongo was a person9...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... who had been familiar with whites for quite some time. And when some one says that Diogo Cão was the first white man to come to him...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... to the Congo, this is not true.
F: No.
T: He [Banza Kongo] was a person who got along well with people.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He was some one -- even the clothes he would be wearing came from Europe.
F: Those clothes?
T: It's the truth.
F: I see, he used to wear, he used to wear...
T: He had been acquainted with [those] people long ago.
F: I see.
T: When I think about it -- you want me to come up [with paintings] that have a place in history, but ...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... I could bring you a picture [painted] from what I saw in this book; or from what I imagined it was like.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He wore exquisite clothes. Or one could take inspiration from the times of [King] Solomon.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The times of -- what's his name again? -- Roboam, and all that.
F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
T: Roboam, yes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He wore such clothes10.
F: And his hat?
T: His hat. It is like a cup from which one could drink.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He drank form this cup made of bronze or copper [a helmet?].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, he was a very knowledgeable person.
F: Then he was also wearing...
T: This is Minyanga.
F: Minyanga.
T: [Straps made of] of raffia.
F: Raffia?
T: Yes, raffia.
F: [pointing] This one?
T: Yes, it's raffia. [showing] They were put on11 like this and fell like that. And now I have an idea -- For example, yesterday you went to Mobutu's [Lubumbashi] residence, right?
F: Yes.
T: To [see] the Third Zairian Games.
F: Yes.
T: Yes. There, children, some of the small others already grown up, were dancing. They were wearing these thing, [showing] put on like this and falling like that.
F: [translating T.'s gestures in a note to myself in German] Folded criss-cross over the chest.
T: Yes, that's it.
F: And then there rings, here around the arm.
T: Alright, these are bikomo.
F: Bikomo, bracelet.
T: Yes, bracelet.
F: Bikomo.
T: Actually, the real term at home is ... ? ...
F: Made of -- what do you call it? -- shaba, copper?
T: Maybe it was made of copper?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Perhaps not, it depends on [the period in] history. But we saw that all our chiefs liked [to wear] the bracelet.
F: Kikomo12.
T: Even today, if you look [you will see that] every chief [wears] the bracelet.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Furthermore, what does he have [there]?
T: A mukombo.
F: Mukombo.
T: Mukombo.
F: The staff.
T: Like Mobutu, right?
F: Yes.
T: You see [him] with it. [He carries it] because for us it goes with the office of chief, since the time of the ancestors. This is one of all those symbols [lit.ideas] [Mobutu] took up.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It is an authentic symbol [inherited from] the ancestors.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Because since the times of the ancestors this wooden stick had always been used. You'll see an old person [carrying it], even young people. You always see that staff. When it is raised, people obey. Yes, that's the chief.
F: Then...
T: People.
F: Those people on...
T: Alright, those people are the chief's people.
F: ... the right.
T: Yes, they are the -- how shall I say? -- the body guards.
F: Body guards?
T: Yes, there wasn't just one, there many of them.
F: I see.
T: And they were not allowed to look the chief in his eyes.
F: Yes [rummaging], not on the paintings, right? Ilona Szombati: Mm-hmm.
T: They were not allowed to look the chief in the eyes.
F: Allright, yes.
T: All had to kneel.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You see how they kneel [lit. bend their knees] on the ground.
F: On the ground.
T: No one was allowed to look at the chief.
F: Yes.
T: This was the ways with Lumpungu, the one they hanged13.
F: Oh, yes ...?...
T: When he emerged from his house...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Every person, no matter where he happened to be -- when you heard [people saying], "There is Lumpungu," you would stop right there and just look down until he had passed.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, but I think this one was the first Lumpungu they hanged14. [claps] Yes.
F: Then I see something like an enclosure there [pointing to a fence in front of Banza Kongo and Diogo Cão].
T: An enclosure?
F: This one [pointing].
T: Over there, this is at his house, his house is there.
F: I see.
T: This there is in front...
F: ...in front of his house.
T: Of his grounds.
F: I see.
T: Yes, it's like a photograph you take.
F: I see.
T: Yes, when you are [standing] inside a person's enclosed property -- like I am here and you are there, yes.
F: Yes, yes ...?...
T: [The way I painted the scene] it was on the sea15 [shore].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [Banza Kongo] had built [his residence] near the water.
F: Is it the sea, or is it a river?
T: It's the sea.
F: This is the sea? What I see...
T: It's the sea, yes, well, the river.
F: Aha.
T: It's a big river.
F: A big river.
T: A big river.
F: From a river16?
T: A river.
F: So this is the river there?
T: It's the Congo.
F: Alright.
T: A big river.
F: A big river.
T: Yes.
F: Bahari, is that not "the sea?"
T: There is mutoni, jito, and bahari. Bahari is "the sea."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: "Ocean," it's "the Ocean."
F: [And] kiziwa [pond, pool, lake]?
T: No, the ocean is the ocean. Kiziwa is this small [body of water] we call kizhiba.
F: [laughs]
T: Yes, mm-hmm. Alright, let's go on.
F: So this is bahari?
T: It's bahari. People are catching...
F: ... and those people are catching fish...
T: ... fish.
F: I see.
T: They throw nets, it is to catch fish. It's ...?...
F: Now I see that when you sign [a painting]...
T: Yes.
F: Sometimes you put "After Tshibumba" and here I see "A work by the painter Tshibumba."
T: You should not let this bother you; it's nothing bad, it's alright.
F: It is.
T: Whether I write "work" or I write -- what was it again? -- "after"...
F: Yes.
T: Or whether I simply write "Tshibumba," it doesn't make a difference.
F: Yes.
T: Yes.
6.
F: voilà/ sasa [pick up T46]: kumbe ni ile wakati: Stanley alifika: mu: Katanga/
T: mu Katanga/
F: ..?.. Katanga/ il rencontre une caravane qui revenait: du: village Katanga/ caravane/
T: c'est à dire: [reads] déjà au quin: au seizième siècle:
F: mm/
T: Livingstone avait rencontré une caravane que provenait: du village Katanga/
F: mm/ sasa beko: minaona: sawa vile ulisema: bo ha: habakuwe na namna ya kusikilizana mu lugha moya/
T: ahah/
F: kumbe yee alionyesha tu nani: mukuba:
T: mukuba:
F: nayee anaandika na u mu:
T: nakutaya jina ya Katanga/
F: mm/
T: nayee alisema ooh: bantu banatoka: fasi: Katanga/
F: mm/ mm/
T: mu buku yake/
F: ni: ule: ule: ule anaonyesha mukuba: ni nani: chef ao ni?
T: ni muntu/
F: ao ni kapita?
T: ni kapita/ ule banatuma na bale batu njo ya kwenda kuuzisha ile mukuba/
F: maneno minaona:
T: na ile wakati mukuba yetu ilianza kuuzishiwa mu Afrique orientale même occidentale/
F: aah/
T: ilianza kufika mbali sana/ mais aikukuwe mayele ya kuenea ya kusema: tukamate mukuba hii: kitu fulani: kishimame apana/ ilikuwa tu kama ni mukuba tunatosha: [claps] c'est fini/
F: na balikuwa na charrette?
T: bon: ilikuwa miti: nazani kama unaona ni miti ile banapika/ ni miti/
F: miti?
T: ni miti ya pori mbao/
F: ndiyo/
T: kata:
F: ndiyo: ndiyo/
T: banapika: allez: banafunga/ wala tuseme tu ni kufunga: wakati ile: ile: nani: ni peto: ni bantu banaanza kufanya mukuba tangu zamani/
F: ni peto?
T: ni mukuba mutupa/
F: ndiyo/
T: eheh/ namutembesha/
F: na: la roue/
T: eeh/
F: c'est quoi? en Swahili?
T: mupeto/
F: mupeto?
T: eeh mupeto/
F: mupeto/
T: mupeto ou bien ya motokari:
F: ndiyo/
T: mpaka mupeto/
F: ...?...
T: ile: ni mpaka mupeto/
F: mm: ni mupeto/ kumbe ile tunaona kule ni mpaka pori hapa:
T: ni pori: sawa ni mu njia ya pori beko nakwenda/ ni mbali beko naenda/ mm/
F: na bale benye ni batumwa?
T: bale ni batu tu wa mukini/
F: batu: baku wa mukini/
T: hakuna batumwa/ ni batu tu ya mukini: banaanza kusukuma: huyu ungine anakamata nkamba anaweka ku mushingo:
F: aah/
T: kamba ya miti: anaweka ku mushingo: ingine anabamba ku mukono: allez twende/ kama anachoka: ungine atakamata tena/
F: ahah/
T: eeh [chuckles] mhmh/ 		6.
F: There we are. Now [Painting 6: Livingstone in Katanga] this is the time when Stanley [a mistake: Livingstone] arrived in Katanga.
T: In Katanga.
F: ...?... Katanga. [Reading from the painting] "He meets a caravan that was on its way back from the village [i. e. the residence of chief] Katanga." A caravan..
T: That is to say, [reads from the painting] "Already in the sixteenth century...
F:
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... Livingstone had met a caravan that came from the village Katanga."
F: Mm-hmm. Now I see, as you said, that they could not communicate in a common language.
T: Right.
F: So he [the leader or the caravan] just holds up a copper ingot.
T: A copper ingot.
F: And [Livingstone] wrote down...
T:...the name I gave you: Katanga.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So Livingstone said: "Oh, those people come from a place called Katanga."
F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
T: [And that is what he wrote down] in his book
F: And the one who shows the copper ingot, who is this, a chief?
T: [No] just a [common] man.
F: Or is he the leader?
T: He is the leader. He is the one they send out with these people to sell copper ingots.
F: Because I see...
T: At that time already our copper was being sold in East Africa, even in West Africa.
F: I see.
T: I began to reach faraway places. But their was a lack of organization. [One didn't say] Let's take this copper, or whatever, and let stock it17." The way it was, we made the copper [claps] and that was it.
F: And they had a cart?
T: Alright, it was made of wood. I think you can see that it was [boards of] wood they nailed together. It was wood.
F: Wood?
T: Trees, lumber taken from the bush.
F: That's it.
T: Cut...
F: I see, I see.
T: They nailed it and put it together. Or, let's say, they just tied it up -- how do you say -- they just tied it up in a bundle, that is what people use to do with copper ingots from the times of old.
F: It's a bundle?
T: It was just copper ingots, nothing else.
F: I see.
T: Yes, and then it was transported to places.
F: And the wheel?
T: Yes.
F: What is it in Swahili18?
T: Mupeto.
F: Mupeto?
T: Yes, mupeto.
F: Mupeto.
T: A wheel, like on a car.
F: I see.
T: It's a wheel.
F: ...?...
T: This thing is just a wheel
F: Mm-hmm. It's a wheel. So what we see there, this is just bush.
T: It's bush. They are traveling on a road through the bush, they go to faraway places. Mm-hmm.
F: And those people [pulling], are they slaves?
T: Those people are just villagers.
F: Villagers.
T: They are not slaves. They villagers, and they push and this one took a rope and put it around.
F: I see.
T: The rope is made of fibers, he put it around and another one takes hold [of the cart] with his arms: "Let's go," [they say]. When he get's tired, another will take his place.
F: I see.
T: Yes [chuckles]. Mm-hmm.
7.
F: sasa:
T: sasa:
F: Stanley: tunaona Stanley [Painting 7: Stanley's Arrival] anataka kuingia mu: ts: mu Congo/
T: bon/
F: donc ni: [rummage] hapa: maneno ni...?... numéro: sinon:
T: Stanley ataingia mu Congo/
F: numéro six/ eko six/
T: mm/
F: numéro six/ bon: tun: tutaona: mugini: bantu banakimbia: ile nasikia: sasa bale banani: baporteurs?
T: bale baporteurs ni bantu ya Angola:
F: mu Swa: mu Swahili unasema porteur?
T: mh: [hesitates] mais: tunaita tu watumwa/
F: hapana: beko na:
T: baporteurs?
F: oui oui/ balikuwa na jina/
T: apana/
F: ndiyo/ kama ni ngazi gani: ba:
T: bakubeba bitu?
F: eh/
T: hapana/ wa: wapangaji?
F: pangazi/ pangazi/
T: baporteurs? apana/ wapangaji: ni sawa vile mwee munatoka mbali eh?
F: ah/
T: bon: munakuya: sawa hivi: hata iko anakuya:
F: aah bale ba: mu: na mutumwa/
T: na: na Stanley nayee/
F: oui/
T: mpaka mupangaji/ kama banafika: bana: banaikala: tuseme banapangia pale/
F: mm/
T: sawa vile Maria na Yezu walikwenda kupanga ku: ku Bethlehem/
F: mm/
T: mm/ ni vile/
F: [aside] pangazi/
T: mm/
F: sasa yee Stanley anavwala chapeau yake: kofiri yake:
T: chapeau: alikuwa na bunduki:
F: eeh/
T: alikuwa na muti ya pori: alikata: juu ya kutembea nayo: kutosha majani ku mbele: ou bien ku:
F: eeh/
T: ku: kuonyesha tu njia yake kule banakwenda/
F: na bale banani: batumwa?
T: bale batumwa nabo: beko na bitu pa kichwa: ile bitu ni ya Stanley/ muko byakula yake:
F: mm/
T: muko manguo yake ingine ya kuweza kuvwala:
F: mm/
T: muko sabuni yake: muko bintu yake ingine mingi: ah: ni kubeba: juu ya kwenda/ [claps]
F: na bote ba: batumwa balitoka S
T: nani? Angola?
T: Angola/ Angola/ 		7.
F: Now.
T: Now.
F: Stanley. We see Stanley [Painting 7: Stanley's Arrival] trying to get into the Congo.
T: Alright.
F: So this [rummaging, incomprehensible; trying to determine the number of the painting]
T: Stanley is about to enter the Congo.
F: Number six, it's [number] six19.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Number six. Alright, let's see: a village, people are running away and this here, I take it, are porters?
T: Those porters are people from Angola.
F: In Swahili, what do you call a porter?
T: Mmm [hesitates], we just call them slaves.
F: No, they have a...
T: Porters?
F: Yes, yes. They had a name.
T: No.
F: Yes, they did. Was it not something like "gazi?"
T: People who carry loads?
F: Yes.
T: No. Wapangaji20?
F: Pangazi, pangazi.
T: Porters? No, wapangaji -- [you have those] when you come from far away, right?
F: I see.
T: Alright, when you come just like this, as [Stanley] is coming...
F: Ah, in that case [travelers] have slaves.
T: And so it was with Stanley.
F: Yes.
T: As to mupangaji -- [that applies to a situation where] the get to place, stay there, and rent [people] in that place.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: As Mary and Jesus went to Bethlehem where they rented [a place to stay].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm. That's how it is.
F: [aside, still mispronouncing] pangazi.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Now, Stanley was wearing a hat, a pith-helmet.
T: Yes, a hat. And he carried a rifle.
F: I see.
T: And he had cut himself a walking stick from the bush, to beat down the undergrowth before him, or to...
F: Yes.
T: ... show the road they were to take.
F: And who are those people, his [slaves or] servants?
T: Yes, his servants. And they are carrying things on their head. Those are Stanley's belongings -- his food...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... his change of clothes...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... his soap, and a lot of other things that were carried for his travels [claps].
F: And were did all his servants come from? From Angola?
T: From Angola. Angola.
8.
F: ah voilà/ [Painting 8: Stanley Reports to Leopold II] kumbe ni: sasa: Stanley: numéro sep
T:
T: [reads] Stanley: fait ces rapports: ...?... c'est à dire: rappor
T: ya situation en Afrique eh?
F: aah/
T: centrale/ il a fait ça en Belgique chez roi Léopold deux/
F: ahah/
T: ah ah/
F: Léopold deux/ [hesitates] ndevu yake/
T: ahah/ alikuwa na ndevu:
F: ahah/
T: mweupe: alikuwa muntu mukubwa: masoupçons: masoupçons eh?
F: eh/
T: tuko nasema kama: Léopold deux akukufwaka/
F: akufaka?
T: mimi minaju: minawaza vile kama Léopold deux: akukufwaka/ bon/ Léopold deux: aliabandonner: busultani/
F: mm/
T: mu Belgique/ aliacha/
F: mm/
T: nazania alikuwa kuikala: yeye alikuya: Monseigneur: Hemptinne/
F: c'est vrai?
T: d'après masoupçons/ ah? akukufwaka apana/ ile: iko kusema vile/ mais: minaona ni yee: ule alikuyaka: ule alikuwa Monseigneur Hemptinne: alikuya: Léopold deux/
F: ulimufahamu? de: d'Hemptinne?
T: nalimuona/
F: ulimuona?
T: aah/...?.../ minaona tu ku: mi kwa kuwaza tu muzuri: mina: niko nawaza/ me shiseme kama ni kweli: mais minasema minawaza/
F: bantu bengine banawaza vile?
T: mingi/ R>
F: mingi/
T: mingi sana mingi/ ata jana: tulisumbulia sababu tulikuwa na ile: journal eh?
F: mm/
T: eeh/ tulisumbulia/ nabo walisema ah oh: non/ Monseigneur Hemptinne: alikuya Léopold deux/
F:mm/
T: akukufa apana: mais aliabandonner/ comment se fait-il qu'un roi: aache busultani: ende akakufe na acciden
T: ya: ya cheval/ ya farasi?
F: mm/
T: apana/ apana/
F: mm/
T: na kama utakuwa kuangalia: ile ilikuya mu Congo: aikukuye busultani ya Belges/ mais: ilikuya: busultani ya religion catholique/
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: na bantu banamuona namna gani d'Hemptinne?
T: Hemptinne?
F: ah/
T: kumuona kwa:
F: sawa kama ilikuwa: alikuwa muntu: muntu gani?
T: alikuwa Léopold deux/
F: oui:
T: aah/
F: mais: sawa:
T: banafanana: balifanana:
F: ku nsula/
T: ku nsula: na mwili/
F: na mwili:
T: wote/ alikuwa kama Léopold deux:
F: alafu: ku roho yake? alikuwa muntu wa roho muzuri: ao roho mubaya?
T: aah lalala/
F: [laughs]
T: sababu tutasema hivi: iko sawa iko: iko sawa:
F: sema tu wazi/
T: sawa mi nali: nalikuya mu nani: mu: mu Likasi/
F: eeh/
T: bon/ unayua: Père Augustin?
F: Augustin/
T: kama anafika mbele ya: sa: ulisema kama mu dimanche tutaweza kwenda ku Likasi?
F: eeh/
T: mu dimanche hii prochain/ twende ku Likasi hapa?
F: sijui/ kama tunasikilizana na Ilona ..?...
T: bon: kama tutakwenda/
F: eeh/
T: nitaenda kuonyesha kaburi yake/
F: eeh/
T: iko mbele ya nyumba ya Mungu ya Sacré Coeur/
F: eeh/
T: bon/ ule Père/ mais aishimuaccuser8 [chuckles] non: minasema mambo ya kweli/ alikuwa na roho mubaya/
F: mm/
T: mais alikuwa reli: nani: religieux/ alikuwa na roho mubaya: sana na zaidi/ par example: nani: Frère Engelbert/ makati: alikuwa musicien: mi nilikuwa chantre eh?
F: chanteur?
T: nalikuwa chantre mu: eh nani: mu église Sacré Coeur ya Likasi/
F: aah/
T: mu année soixante et un: soixante deux: soixante trois/
F: mm/
T: kwa première voix: mais en même temps mu: niko mu troisième voix/
F: eh/
T: eh mu nani: deuxième voix/ eh/ nalikala nabo mashiku mingi eh? mais mi naliona kama: alikuwa na roho mubaya: zaidi Engelbert/ aliweza kwanza: kama anakamata muntu: ataweza kupika: vile yee atapika: ni kuua tu tuseme/ [claps] she wote ...?... tasema: ule Frère iko na roho mubaya/
F:mm/
T: Frère tulipenda: eh: nani: Hector:
F: mm/
T: Frère Hector: na Frère ?ewo: ule wetu tulikuwa bachantres nani: ts: ah: nani: [claps] nasahabu jina yake eh?
F: Etienne/ ulimufahamu?
T: Etienne: oh voilà/ Frère Etienne/
F: mm/
T: alikuwa muntu muzuri sana nayee/ eeh/ puisque maître wetu: ule alianza kutufundisha: mimbo: alikuwa huyu: huyu iko sasa nani: huyu nani: huyu journaliste eeh: sportif nani: eh: alikuwa président wa association ya ba: ya banani ya ba:
F: chanteurs?
T: non ya banani? ya ba: ts: quoi? [hesitates] ah/ ya bajournalistes sportifs:
F: ah/
T: ya Africains/ nani?
F: sijui simufahamu/
T: eeh/ njo alikuwa: maître wetu/ alianza kutufundisha na kutuimbisha/
F: ah/
T: eeh/ minajua jina yake: nasahabu/
F: mm/ mm/
T: voilà/ sawa ku roho ya: Hemptinne: siwezi kujua sawa vile minashikia bantu/ kusema kwa bantu asema alikuwa na/
F: oui/ bantu banasema vile?
T: eeh/ mingi/
F: na kwa mufano: banaleta mufano gani?
T: mufano ya batu ya Gécamines: wale balikufaka: yee alijua ile maneno muzuri sana/ na alijua kufa kwa batu mingi/ mm/
F: minaona Stanley anavwala: anavwala tu nani?
T: koti/
F: koti yake: na ...?... pantalon na:
T: rayé/
F: rayé/ [laughs]
T: [chuckles] bon/
F: bon: ça va/
T: carte ya Congo iko pale: ya Afrique: ya monde/
F: ya Afrique:
T: non/ carte ya monde/
F: ya monde:
T: mais: inareprésenter Afrique/
F: Afrique/ Afrique iko ndani/
T: eh/
F: [aside] aah bintu ya kushangaa/ [rummages]
T: unasagaa?
F: ndiyo/
T: [laughs] aukuwazie kama tunaweza ku: kuyua mambo vile?
F: eeh/
T: eh/ 		8.
F: Ah, here we are [Painting 8: Stanley Reports to Leopold II]. So now it is Stanley, [painting] number seven21.
T: [reads from the inscription] "Stanley makes his reports....?...." that is to say, reports of the situation in Africa, right?
F: I see.
T: Central [Africa]. He did this in Belgium at the residence of Leoplod II22.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: Leopold II [hesitates], with his beard.
T: Ah, he had a beard.
F: I see.
T: White, because he was an old man. [We have] suspicions -- I say, a suspicion, right?
F: Yes.
T: We say that Leopold II never died.
F: He never died?
T: I know, or rather think that Leopold II never died. Alright, Leopold II abandoned his throne [lit. office of chief]...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... in Belgium, he just left it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I think he came to live [here]. He was Monseigneur de Hemptinne.
F: Really?
T: That is what one suspects. You understand? He never died, this is something people talk [about]. But the way I see it, the person who came to live [here] was Monseigneur Hemptinne. He was Leopold II.
F: Did you know d'Hemptinne?
T: I saw him.
F: You saw him?
T: Yes. ...?... As I see it, [you come to that conclusion] if you make an effort to think about it. I don't say it is the truth, what I say is that [it occurred to me when] I thought about it.
F: Do other people think this?
T: Many do.
F: Many.
T: Many, very many. We talked about it just yesterday when we had this newspaper, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
F: Yes, we were talking and they said: Ah, no, Monseigneur Hemptinne was Leopold II.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He did not die but abandoned [his throne]. How could a king simply abandon his office and die in a riding accident, falling from a horse?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: No way.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And if you really look at how it was in the Congo, sovereign power was not in the hands of the Belgians, it was held by the Catholic religion.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: So, how did people look at de Hemptinne?
T: Hemptinne?
F: Yes.
T: Look at him as....
F: Like what kind of person was he?
T: He was Leopold II.
F: Yes.
T: Yes.
F: But, like...
F: They resembled each other.
T: In face.
T: In face and body.
F: And body.
T: In every respect, he was like Leopold II.
F: But what about in his spirit? Was de Hemptinne a good person or a bad person?
T: Oh well [there you ask a question].
F: [laughs]
T: Because we are going to talk like that, he was like...
F: Just speak openly.
T: The thing is, I was living in Likasi.
F: I see.
T: Alright, you know Father Augustin?
F: Augustin.
T: When he comes before...You said that we could go to Likasi on Sunday?
F: Yes.
T: This coming Sunday, let's go to Likasi?
F: I don't know, if we arrange this together with Ilona23 ...?...
T: Alright, when we go...
F: Yes.
T: ... I am going to show you his grave.
F: I see.
T: It's in front of Sacred Heart Church.
F: I see.
T: Alright. This father -- it's not that I want to accuse him [chuckles], I speak the truth -- he had a bad spirit.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yet he was a member of a religious order. He had a truly bad spirit. For example -- what was his name? -- Brother Engelbert was a musician at that time [and] I sang in the choir, you understand?
F: [Your were] a singer?
T: I sang in the choir of Sacred Heart Church in Likasi.
F: I see.
T: In the year sixty-one, sixty-two, sixty-three.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I sang first voice, and also third.
F: I see.
T: And then I stayed for a long time with those who sang second voice, you understand? But what I saw was that Engelbert had a bad spirit. He was capable of grabbing and beating a person. And when he beat [some one] it was as if to kill him. [clap] All of us ...? ... would say, "This Brother, he has a bad spirit."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: A Brother whom we liked was,24 Hector, and also Brother ...?... He was our [?] when we sang in the choir. What was his name again [claps]; I forgot his name, you understand?
F: Etienne, did you know him?
T: Etienne, there you are. Brother Etienne25.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He was a very good person, yes. And then there was our choir master, the one who first taught us the chants. This one was -- now his this sports journalist. He used to be the president of the association of -- what are they called, the...?
F: Choir singers?
T: No, of -- who are they [hesitates]? -- ah, of the sports writers...
F: I see.
T: ... the African [sports writers]. What was their name?
F: I don't know. I don't know him.
T: Yes, he was our [choir] master. He taught us and conducted our singing [lit. made us sing].
F: I see.
T: Well, I know his name, but I cannot come up with it.
F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
T: Now, as to Hemptinne's spirit, I cannot [say] I know, but I listen to the people. The word among the people is that he had a bad spirit.
F: I see. That is how people talk [about him]?
T: Yes, many.
F: And the evidence? What do they give as evidence?
T: Evidence are those people of the Gécamines mining company who died. He was well informed about that affair, and he knew that many people died. Mm-hmm.
F: I see that Stanley wears -- what it is it he wears?
T: A coat.
F: His coat and ...?... and trouser with...
T: Striped.
F: Striped [laughs].
T: [chuckles] alright.
F: Alright, that's enough [about that].
T: There is the map of the Congo, of Africa, of the world.
F: Of Africa.
T: No, a map of the world.
F: Of the world.
T: But is represents [also] Africa.
F: Africa. Africa is on it.
T: Yes.
F: [aside] Amazing things [rummages26].
T: You are surprised?
F: Yes.
T: [laughs] You didn't think that we could know things that well?
F: Yes.
T: You see?
9.
F: bon/ tunafika sasa na mu numéro huit: [Painting 9: Stanley Meets Livingstone] sawa: Stanley: na Livingstone banakut: ku: kutana/
T: aah/
F: aaah: Stanley anafika tu na wale na: porteurs yake: Livingstone: minaona Livingstone anavwala paka vile:
T: paka vile/ ilikuwa manguo ya:
F: ya bazungu?
T: ya kazi/ ilikuwa sawa ya bamilitaires/ balikuwa ni bamilitaires tu/
F: Livingstone vilevile?
T: bo bote balikuwa tu: balikuwa engagés/
F: aah/
T: mm/
F: Livingstone?
T: ah Livingstone/
F: engagé kwa nani?
T: balikuwa: bali: balikuwa sawa enga: bali: iko sawa engagement/ c'est que ni: baexplorateurs?
F: aah/
T: balikuwa maana ya kujua: Afrique: na balikuwa engagés/
F: mm/
T: balikuwa même payés tuseme/
F: na ku mukongo: tuna: tunase: tunaona: mugini moya:
T: bantu/
F: na bantu:
T: ahah/
F: hata: nani: njo chef:
T: chef/
F: chefu/
T: eeh: chefu wa mugini/
F: iko humu: ku Mulungwishi?
T: Mulungwishi yee moya/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/ moya tu mu Mulungwishi/ ata Nguba: ni mpaka Nguba moya/
F: Nguba?
T: eeh/ unaisha kufika kule?
F: bado/
T: na sasa: beko natosha: njo chumvi yote yee tuko naye/
F: oui/
T: inatoka pale pa Nguba:
F: karibu na lu: na Mulungwishi?
T: Mulunguishi eh/ ku tu: Mulungwishi: Mutaka: Nguba/
F: Nguba/ c'est vrai? na: sawa wee ulisema bo balikuwa barafiki yake/ minaona banavwala paka pa: bifunga ..?...
T: apana/ ile ni tu manguo eh?
F: mm/
T: wakati alikuya: yee Livingstone:
F: eh/
T: alitukuta na ile ya mayani/
F: aah/
T: bengine banaanza kamata mayani tu kidogo: anaweka paka hapa:
F: oui/
T: kunaisha/
F: eh/
T: hii yote: bule/
F: eh/
T: walikamata tu manguo: eh sawa ...?... ah: alikuwa na ma: sortes ya mamande vile:
F: eh/
T: ali: anaanza kupasula: anakabulia huyu: anapasula: anakabulia huyu:
F: aah/
T: sasa bote balimupenda/
F: eh/
T: na balisagaa13/ mm? allez: balifurahi: na kwanza kuikala: na kusumbulia: na kumupenda vile: nayee sasa mu kumupenda kule: ali: alikuya Protestant/ anaanza kubafundisha mambo ya Mungu/ alafu miye:
F: baProtestants gani? ya Prote: ya namna gani?
T: ya Protestant/
F: ya ba: tuko na Protestants ya kuachana/
T: ah bon/ voilà/ yee njo anaanza ku: alileta ile dini/
F: mm/
T: bon sawa vile alianza kubafundisha: na mimi niko najiuliza kwa lakini:
F: mm/
T: ni kinywa gani alianza kubafundisha? ou bien: ni Swahili? ao ni kinywa gani? bo banasema: ku histoire kama: alibafundisha/ kinywa gani?
F: mm/
T: nayee alikuwa mugeni/
F: bantu habajue/
T: eh na bantu habajue/ njo ile/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ 		9.
F: Fine, now we come to number eight [nine] [Painting 9: Stanley Meets Livingstone]: Stanley and Livingstone meet each other.
T: Yes.
F: I see, Stanley arrives with his porters and Livingstone -- what I notice is that Stanley and Livingstone are dressed alike.
T: Exactly. Those were the clothes of....
F: Of the whites?
T: Work[-clothes]. They were like those of the military. In fact, they were military.
F: Even Livingstone?
T: All of them, they were hired.
F: Ah.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Livingstone?
T: Yes, Livingstone.
F: Hired by whom?
T: They were employed as explorers, weren't they?
F: I see.
T: They had a way to get to know Africa, and they were hired for that.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They were even paid, let's say.
F: And in the background we see a village.
T: People.
F: And people.
T: Yes.
F: Even -- who is this? -- the chief.
T: The chief.
F: The chief.
T: Yes, the chief of the village.
F: And this is here in Mulungwishi?
T: Mulungwishi, indeed.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes, exactly like [here] in Mulungwishi, or even in Nguba; it is Nguba.
F: Nguba?
T: Yes, have you been there?
F: Not yet.
T: Even today, that is were the mine all our salt.
F: Yes.
T: That is where it comes from, Nguba.
F: And that is close to Mulungwishi?
T: Mulungwishi, yes, in Mulungwishi, Mutaka, Nguba.
F: Nguba, is that true? You said [earlier] that those people were his [Livingstone's] friends. I see that they are wearing only loincloths.
T: No, these are clothes, you understand?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: At the time when Livingstone came...
F: Yes.
T: ... he found them wearing these leaves.
F: I see.
T: Some people just took a few leaves. One would put them here [showing]...
F: Yes.
T: ... and that was it.
F: Yes.
T: [showing] All this was not covered.
F: Yes.
T: They took clothes, well, it was like ....?... it was some kind of27 ...?...
T: He [Livingstone?] would tear off pieces and distribute them.
F: I see.
T: And then everybody would like him.
F: Yes.
T: And the people were surprised, right? They were full of joy and so they sat down and talked to him. And they liked him in that place. He was a Protestant and he began to teach them the Gospel [lit. the matters of God]. But I...
F: What kind of Protestant?
T: Just Protestant.
F: But we have different kinds of Protestants.
T: Yes, fine. He was the one who first brought that religion.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright, so he began to teach them, but I am asking myself...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... what was the language he used when he began to teach them. Was is Swahili, or what was the language? In the history [books] they say that he taught them. In what language?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He was a stranger.
F: The people did not know.
T: Right, the people did not know, that's it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
10.
F: na/ bon [Painting 10: Livingstone's Death]/ sasa ni kufa kwake: [rummages]
T: mm/
F: ya Stanley/
T: eeeh [hesitates]:
F: [corrects] ya: ya Livingstone/ numéro neuf/ ni bale ka: bale bantu b: bantu wake:
T: bale bantu ya mukini bale/
F: mm/
T: pale alikufa: balimubebaka: mbele balimuweka tu muzuri kutosha blanketi ni yake:
F: mm/
T: manguo ni yake/ balimuweka muzuri: pa ma: kitanda ya kwetu huku/ unayua kitanda ya kwetu?
F: mm/
T: inafanyaka miti/
F: ndiyo/
T: ile ya: shimbala/
F: shimbala/
T: tunakata: tunakata: tunaunga: tunafunga na nkamba pale: allez/ kunaisha utakamata kilako ile ya kwetu ile:
F: mm/
T: tunaweka: utalala tu bien/ mhmh/
F: mm/ na hapa: minaona msalaba: masalaba:
T: msalaba/ njo ku: nyumba inyee ya tubudi batamuingisha: ni jiwe/ ni kilima ya jiwe banachumbula banakata/
F: hapa sasa bantu bana: banajua fasi?
T: apana balitoshaka mwili baliisha kwenda naye/ balienda naye ku bulaya/
F: Stanley?
T: eeh/ Livingstone/
F: ah: Livingstone/
T: mm/
F: balienda naye?
T: baliendaka na ...?...
F: alafu: bantu banajua fasi?
T: oh: sijui ...?...
F: ...?...
T: mais: aiwezikane/
F: ...?...
T: déjà Kimbangu wa sasa: abakujue/
F: eeh/
T: bashi paka yee alikuwa zamani baliisha kupoteza ile fasi/ asema banaisha kutokaka na ile mukini: inabakia tu pori:
F: mm/
T: kunaisha/
F: bengine banajua fasi ya Kimbangu/
T: aah/
F: hapa Kasapa/ 		10.
F: And now it is his death [Painting 10: Livingstone's Death] [rummages]...
T: Mm-hmm.
F: ... of Stanley.
T: Yes, well [hesitates]...
F: [corrects] ... of Livingstone. Number nine [ten]. Those over there are his people.
T: Those are the people of the village.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: When he had died they carried him away. First the laid him to rest in a dignified manner. They took our his blanket...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The clothes are his. So they laid him down nicely on a bed as we use it here. You know such a bed?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It's made of stakes.
F: Yes.
T: Of bamboo stakes.
F: Bamboo.
T: We cut them, join them, tie them together with a cord, that's it. Then you take a mat of the kind we use here...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: We put it [on top] and you'll sleep well. Mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm. I see a cross here. A cross.
T: The cross is next to the burial chamber where they will put him. It's rocks, a hill of rocks into which they dug and cut [the tomb]
F: Do people still know the place?
T: No, the body was taken out and carried away. They went with it to Europe.
F: Stanley?
T: Well, Livingstone.
F: I see, Livingstone.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: And they went away with him?
T: They just went away and ...?...
F: But do people know the place?
T: Oh, I don't know ...?...
F: ...?...
T: But -- it's not possible.
F: ...?...
T: Even the place where Kimbangu was buried until recently they don't know.
F: I see.
T: [Livingstone's death] was so long ago, people lost the memory of the place. That is to say, the village was abandoned long ago. Only bush remains.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's it.
F: There are those who know the place of Kimbangu's grave.
T: Ah.
F: It's here, at Kasapa.
11. voilà/ sasa numéro dix Ngongo Lutete [Painting 11: Chief Ngongo Lutete]/ ts/ bale bantu: [aside] acha ...?.../ muntu fulani anaua muntu/
T: muntu ule: ni muntu wa: Ngongo Lutete/
F: mm/
T: ule: alianza sawa vile anaua unaona eko nakata ile mukono ile na kichwa:
F: mm/
T: ataingisha mule mu chungu: muko mwili ingine/
F: mm/
T: bon: kama anaingisha mule: moto ile iko nawaka ile: na mayi iko mule: na tomate wataweka mule: batakula tu muzuri kabisa kabisa/
F: [embarrassed laughter]
T: mais inafanyikwa na sasa hapa/
F: eh?
T: mu maévénements ya soixante: soixante cinq/
F: ah/
T: bantu walikulanaka/ mu Lubumbashi humu/
F: mu Lubumbashi?
T: eeh/ na kipande ya Nord Katanga/
F: mm/
T: bantu walikula bantu: kuchoma:
F: mm/
T: banaua: banachoma: banakula/
F: ile wakati uliingia mu camp de Baluba kule?
T: mi: ah mi nilikuwa mu Likasi/
F: mu Likasi/
T: eeh/
F: sasa anaweka manani: ma: bichwa/
T: ile ni mascelettes/ hii mifupa/
F: eeh/
T: ya bichwa/
F: bichwa: bichwa:
T: njo ilikuwa ku lupango yake/ ali:
F: mm/
T: alipanga ile bitu/ anapanga kote/ yee anaikala ...?...
F: hapa sasa banafanya vile?
T: m: sasa? oooh wapi/ he/
F: njo watumwa/
T: ni batumwa wale wenye kunfungwa/
F: fungwa/
T: sasa banakuya juu ya baprésenter kwa: sawa vile tuko nasema: ni commissionnaire: Arabe/
F: mm/
T: abebe: akapeleke ku Zanzibar: anaisha kuleta makuta yake/
F: mm/
T: ..?..weka: aliweka makuta pale chini: anaonyesha:
F: aah/
T: kama: anauza: kama ilikuwa muzuri/
F: sasa minaona yee Ngongo Lutete hana na nywele/
T: Ngongo Lutete?
F: ah/
T: maneno yee alikuwa ni muntu mukubwa/ alikuwa muntu mukubwa kabisa: ?luba anaisha kukata/
F: eeh/
T: eeh/ unayua libala?
F: li?
T: libala/
F: libala?
T: eeh/ bon: chauve/
F: chauve/
T: eh/
F: mm/ libala/
T: mm/
F: tena minaona: ile nani:
T: meno/
F: meno yake: ts:
T: makari/
F: makali/
T: mm? alikuwa: sawa balichongolaka hivi/
F: ah/
T: na: sawa kwetu: eh? kama unaona: ata tunaweza kuona:
F: niliisha kuona/
T: iko miaka: unaona ku bamama bengine eh?
F: eh/
T: hii meno mbili ya hii hapa eh? [points]
F: ah/
T: iko yenye kuchongolwa kidogo eh?
F: ah/
T: mm/ ilikuwa: quoi: la beaut: la beauté Zairoise tu: la culture/
F: mm/
T: kuko bengine Baluba beko natosha: ile ya chini/ sawa Baluba ya Katanga/
F: eeh/
T: anakamata mwenzake: anamupika/ hapa/ paa/ anatosha ile ya chini/
F: eh/
T: banatosha/ bon: ba: baKanioka:
F: mm/
T: banakamata ile ya yulu/
F: mm/
T: banakata/ banatosha/
F: mm/
T: banabakia bule/
F: [laughs]
T: bon/ baKabinda: baKabinda nabo nazania ni chini/ chini: ou bien yulu: sijue muzuri/ ilikuwa: bien juu ya kusumbulia/ kama: kama auna na ile beko nasema uku bumbafu/ yapashwa ?ya kutoshe/ [claps, chuckles] njo ilikuwa/ eheh/
F: sasa minaona iko na nani: na: na:
T: makucha mulefu
F: makut?
T: mm kucha/
F: kucha?
T: eeh/
F: eh/
T: sababu alikuwa na makali/
F: [aside] fingernails/ mm/ mulefu sana/
T: mm/ alikuwa na makali kabisa kabisa/ kama anakamata anaingisha ata humu: ataweza tu: ?tukuna yee/ alikuwa muntu moya terrible/ mm/
F: anaikala: anakala tu inje: ku:
T: anaikala ku lupango yake inje/
F: lupango yake/
T: analeta macommandements: allez: ua ule/ natafuta kulya leo: minapenda nyama yake/ ua ule: minapenda/ leo nikule nyama yake/ 		11. Here we are, now it is number ten [eleven], Ngongo Lutete [Painting 11: Chief Ngongo Lutete]. Those people, [aside] wait a moment...Some one killed a person.
T: This person there is one of Ngongo Lutete's people.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He first killed [a person] and, as you see, he cut off that arm and head.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He is going to put into that pot; another body is already in it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright, he puts him into [the pot], there is this fire burning, and there is water in the pot. They are going to add tomatoes and they will eat very well indeed.
F: [embarrassed laughter]
T: But this sort of thing is being done right now and here.
F: What?
T: During the events that took place between 1960 and 1965...
F: Ah.
T: ... people ate each other. Right here in Lubumbashi.
F: In Lubumbashi?
T: Yes, and in Northern Katanga.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: People ate people. They grilled them.
F:
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They kill them , grill them, and eat them.
F: [Did you see this] when you went into the Baluba [refugee/concentration] camp there
T: Me? I was in Likasi.
F: In Likasi.
T: Yes.
F: Now, [Ngongo Lutete] put those heads...
T: Those are skeletons, these bones...
F: I see.
T: of heads [skulls].
F: Skulls, skulls.
T: It was [to mark] his enclosure...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...that put up those things; he put them up everywhere. He sat ...?...
F: Nowadays, are they still doing that?
T: Now? No way, what do you think?
F: And those are slaves.
T: The people over there are slaves who are tied up.
F: Tied up.
T: They arrived to be presented to the Arab commissionnaire [trader], as we say.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So that he may take them away and bring them to Zanzibar. He has already brought his money.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ....?... and put it down. He put the money down there and shows it.
F: I see.
T: [To see] whether the price is right.
F: Now I see that Ngongo Lutete is bald.
T: Ngongo Lutete?
F: Yes.
T: That is because he was an old man, he was a very old man; he cut off ...?...28.
F: I see.
T: Yes. Do you know [the meaning of] libala?
F: Li?
T: Libala.
F: Libala?
T: Yes, well, [it means] bald.
F: Bald.
T: Yes.
F: Mm-hmm. Libala29.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Also, I notice...
T: ... his teeth.
F: His teeth, they are...
T: ...they are pointed.
F: Pointed.
T: You understand? They were filed that way.
F: I see.
T: Because you can see this in our country, right?.
F: I've seen it.
T: It was years ago, you saw on some women, right?
F: Yes.
T: These two teeth here, right [points]?
F: Yes.
T: They were filed away a little, right?
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm. It used to be -- what shall we call it? -- a matter of beauty, Zairean beauty, culture.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Some Baluba remove the lower teeth, for instance, the Luba-Katanga.
F: I see.
T: [The way it is done:] One person holds another one and than knocks there -- a whack -- and he removes the lower teeth.
F: I see.
T: The remove them. Alright, the Kanioka...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... take out the upper ones.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They cut them out and remove them.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And people are left without [their teeth].
F: [laughs]
T: Alright, the people from Kabinda, I think the with the people from Kabinda it was the lower one. The lower ones or the upper ones, I don't really know. It was [thought to be good for] way you speak. If you did not have this done people said you were stupid. They had to be removed [claps, chuckles], that's how it used to be, yes.
F: And then I notice his -- what do you call it?
T: Long finger nails [lit. claws].
F: Makut?
T: Kucha.
F: Kucha.
T: Yes.
F: I see.
T: Because he had sharp ones...
F: [aside in English] Fingernails30. Mm-hmm. They are really long.
T: Mm-hmm. His were really sharp. If he would grab something and put his claws into it he could ...?... [That shows that] he was a terrifying person, indeed. Mm-hmm.
F: He was sitting outside...
T: He would sit outside in his compound...
F: His compound.
T: ...and give orders: Go, kill that one. I want to eat today, I like his flesh. Kill that one, I like to eat his flesh today.
12.
F: ma..?.../ sasa: maArabes: banakimbia/ [Painting 12: Arab Defeat]
T: baArabes banakimbia: ile iko kule: ni nyumba ya: Ngongo Lutete ...?...
F: ile: aah: ...?...
T: si njo ile nyumba ile:
F: oui oui oui oui oui: na: na bichwa:
T: na bichwa ile: ni nyumba ya Ngongo Lutete/
F: aah/
T: sasa balikuwa kubaattaquer: ba: baattaquer: banabapika: banabaua bengine: bale bengine: [claps] banakimbia/ kunaisha: akuna tena namna ya kufanya ata moja/
F: na banavwala ...?...
T: banavwala ile manguo ya kwabo: ya baArabes/
F: ya baArabes?
T: eeh/
F: uliisha kuona?
T: aaah minaisha kuona/
F: sawa mistari ile:
T: ilikuwa na baArabu ya ingine mu Kamina/ sasa hapa mu septante: septante et un: twiko na baArabes/
F: baArabes mwenye kutoka Afrique de l'Est? ao baSenegalais?
T: no: baArabes/ aina: ehh: quoi? c'est un Algerien eh? na bale baEgyptiens/ tulikuwa nabo tu/
F: aah/
T: c'est un Arabe/ ni vile/ Egyptien na: ...?...
F: oui oui: beko Arabes/ banasemaka Arabes/ kumbe bale ni: ni ni Arabes/
T: na bengine mingi humu: ungine wa: wa mu: Arabie Saoudite/
F: mm/
T: nalikuwa naye mu Likasi zamani: bale baSenegalais bachangaliki/
F: mm/
T: balikuya tu ...?... kutembea: ah/
F: na bale bana:
T: bale ni ba: Stanley: na baDhanis: baExplorateurs banapatana sasa:
F: ah baExplorateurs?
T: mm/ banaanza ku: piga/ ule muntu ni ule iko naanza kusema eeh: angaria ule nayee anataka kukimbia kule/
F: mm/
T: umuue ule muntu/ [chuckles] njo kupika ya masashi: kuua bote/
F: Ngongo Lutete alikala wapi?
T: ah: Ngongo Lutete alikuwa kipande nazani ya Manyema/
F: ya Manyema?
T: mm/
F: mm/ 		12.
F: ...?... Now the Arabs [Painting 12: Arab Defeat]. They are running away.
T: The Arabs are running away. This house over there is Ngongo Lutete's ...?....
F: That one, I see...?...
T: Isn't that the house...
F: Yes, yes, the one with the skulls.
T: With those skulls. It is Ngongo Lutete's.
F: I see.
T: So the Arabs were attacked, beaten, some were killed, others [claps] fled. And that was it. There was nothing at all that could be done about it.
F: What is this dress they are wearing?
T: They wear the dresses of their country, Arab clothes.
F: Arab clothes?
T: Yes.
F: Have you seen this?
T: Yes, I saw it.
F: About these stripes...[pointing]
T: Some Arabs at Kamina had them. Today, in 1971, there are Arabs among us.
F: Arabs who come from east Africa, or Senegalese?
T: No, Arabs. They are not (to be confused with) Algerians of Egyptians; we had those, too.
F: I see.
T: An Arab [is an Arab], that's how it is. An Egyptian...?...
F: Yes, yes, they are Arabs. People say "Arabs," so they are Arabs.
T: And quite a few who live here come from Saudi Arabia.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I was with them in Likasi, long ago. Those Senegalese are different.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They were ...?... traveling, yes31
F: And those people [pointing to the Europeans on the left side of the picture]?
T: Those are Stanley, Dhanis, and their people, the explorers who were around at the time32.
F: Ah, the explorers?
T: Yes, they are shooting. And this [black] man there [among the Europeans] says: "Look, this one tries to run away...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...kill him." [chuckles] So they would shoot and kill everyone.
F: Where was Ngongo Lutete's home?
T: Ngongo Lutete, I think, lived in the region of the Maniema.
F: Maniema?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm.
13. naa: hapa: tuko: [Painting 13: The Execution of the Arab Leaders] ni ile wakati baliua: Tipo Tip:
T: Rumaliza: Tipo Tipo: Munimutara/ ou bien Munimuhara: Munimutara/
F: Muni: Munimutara?
T: aah/
F: Munimutara ni nani?
T: ni baArabisés/ balikuwa bachefu ya: ba: balikuwa c'est que nabo balianza kuuzisha batu/ balikuwa ba: Zairois/ baCongolais/ mais balikuwa baArabisés/
F: uliweka ...?... hapa/ un: deux: trois:
T: deux: trois: Rumaliza: Tipo Tipo:
F: ku manguo yake:
T: eeh/ kwa kujua kama: wa kwanza ni Rumaliza: wa pili ni Tipo Tipo: wa tatu:
F: Rumaliza/
T: ni Munimutara/
F: Rumaliza ni sawa: jina ya Rwandais/
T: apana: ni batu ya kule kipande: ya ma: ata: ba: bantu ya Bukavu: majina yabo ni bantu ya baRwanda/
F: eeh/
T: kama ata kufwata: ile partie ile ni baRwandais/ ni baRwandais bote: na uso yabo: ni baRwandais/
F: mm/
T: mais: ni paka: njo ni baArabes/ peleka huku/
F: sasa minaona bale bana: banaua: Tipo Tip: unaf: jua: ma: arisi yake?
T: Tipo Tipo?
F: eeh/
T: apana/ mais nalijuaka adisi yote/ mais nilipoteza akili: ah: minakomea/ mais kama minafwata muzuri: kama minataka kutafuta nitapata yote muzuri/ nalijua yote ya baRumaliza: na baMunimutara: yote ni nalijua tu/
F: mm/ sasa minaona: beko déjà na bale ba: nani: ba:
T: bapoliciers/ c'est que: hii: hivi niko nareprésenter pa tableau: ni juu ya kujua kama: ni: ba: ni banani: ni ba: bapoliciers eh?
F: mm/
T: ni ba: ni banani: bamilitaires ya ba: Belges eh? baForce Publique/
F: mm/
T: mais bo benyewe abakwanza kuvwala vile apana/ bo naanza kuvwala chapeau ya ver
T:
F: mm/
T: eeh? na ile: nani: ya signe ya nani ya: jaune: noir:
F: mm/
T: bon nguo yabo ilikuwa tena ya bukimilitair: khaki:
F: mm/
T: et vert/ et puis na culotte/ ile na: nafanya kwa kuonyesha kama: ni ba: militaires ya mu nani:
F: mais ile noir: ilikuwa:
T: noir ilikuwa pour les policiers/
F: pour les policiers?
T: eeh/
F: na muzungu anadonner: ordre:
T: ordre/ allez:
F: piga/
T: feu/
F: piga/ sasa ba: bantu balikuwa contents kama waliua wale wachefu?
T: oui/ tulikuwa contents/
F:mm/
T: kwa sababu ni bantu nawo waliuaka bantu kwa lakini/
F: eh/
T: eeh/ mais/ tunasema tulikuwa contents: ilikuwa hivi/ kulikuwa bazungu: bazungu bengine eh? bazungu bote tuseme/ balitumika ku ile mawazo ya mbele ilikuwa muzuri/
F: mm/
T: et puis kiisha kuisha bale bachef bengine: balikuwa babaya: sasa bo baliingilia tena na ku bachef: bale balikuya: bazuri/ alors: balitafuta nani: balifia tu kuweka gouvernement/ yabo/
F: ...?...
T: na kupoteza bantu/ 		13. And here we have [Painting 13: The Execution of the Arab Leaders] [a picture] of the time when they killed Tipo Tip.
T: Rumaliza, Tipo Tip, Munimutara -- or was it Munimuhara? -- Munimutara.
F: Muni...Munimutara?
T: Yes.
F: Who was Munimutara?
T: He [and the others] were called arabisés. They were the chiefs who began with the slave trade. [Actually,] they were Zaireans, Congolese, but they were "arabized."
F: Here you painted ... one, two, three...
T: ...two three, Rumaliza, Tipo Tip...
F: They are wearing...
T: Yes [on this picture] the first one is Rumaliza, the second Tipo Tip, and the third one ...
F: Rumaliza33...
T: It's Munimutara.
F: Rumaliza sounds like a name from Rwanda.
T: No, they are people from that region. The people of Bukavu have names like those from Rwanda.
F: I see.
T: If you look around in that part [of the country] they are [like] people from Rwanda, their countenance is that of people from Rwanda.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But it was the Arabs who brought [them] here.
F: Now, I see that they kill Tipo Tip. Do you know his story?
T: Tipo Tip's?
F: Yes.
T: No. I used to know all the stories but I lost that knowledge as I grew up. Still, if I did some serious research I could get to know all of that. I used to know all the stories about Rumaliza, Munimutara, all those stories, I used to know them.
F: Mm-hmm. Now I see they already had those...
T: ...policemen. You should know that what I am representing in this picture -- the policemen, you understand? -- are ...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... Belgian military, right? The Force Publique.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But in the beginning they were not dressed like this, they had a green hat.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You understand? [And] these yellow-and-black stripes.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright, they had military uniforms that were khaki...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... green; and then short pants. That's the way I paint it if I want to show that they belong to the army.
F: But black, this was...
T: ...black was for the policemen.
F: For the policemen?
T: Yes.
F: And a white man give the orders.
T: The order: Go...
F: ...shoot.
T: Fire.
F: Shoot. Now, were the people glad when these chiefs were killed?
T: Yes, we were glad.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Because they had killed [our] people.
F: I see.
T: Yes, well, let's say, the reason why we were glad was this. If in the beginning, some whites, the whites generally, had [carried out] the plan [to get rid of the Arabs?] it would have been a good thing.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Then, once they had disposed of those evil rulers they took over and, at first, they were good. But then they set about to establish their government and...
F: ...?...
T: ... killed our people in turn.
14.
F: sasa ni: ule ingine [Painting 14: The Poisoned Banza Kongo]: Banza Kongo: anakufa/
T: ah/
F: numéro treize/ numéro treize: analala tu mu kitanda yake:
T: sawa vile unaona: analala mu kitanda yake: [aside] uniongozee:
F: mm/
T: analala mu kitanda yake: ile nguo: shi ile nguo anaanzia kuvwala:
F: mm/
T: bamufunyika: ile ni blanketi: banamuweka ku mikulu: bon/ et puis: kule: ile: ni [hesitates] oreiller/
F: oreiller?
T: eh/ banamuwekea: ile ni mpemba/
F: mpemba banapaka/
T: mpemba banapakala/ kwa sababu: kwetu kote eh? sultani akifa:
F: mm/
T: inapashwa banamutengenezaka/ bataweza kusema: mushilie/
F: mm/
T: [aside] pardon/ mushilie mwee batu/ muikale kimya: ata bibi yake ata nani/ nabo bataingia naye ku nyumba ingine kidogo: banakwenda kule: banamutengeneza: mupakala mpemba: kumutwanga: sababu shikweza kufanya ile: nani ile: plume?
F: eeh/
T: ya lusara: shee tutasema lusara wa nduba/ ya busultani/ banamuingisha/
F: ile: nani: nyonya ya ndeke?
T: ya ndeke/ ndeke moya: ni ndeke: shee tunataya tunaonaka kwetu kama ni ndeke moya: ya: basultani/ iko sawa kama symbolique quoi tu/
F: mm/
T: aah/ paka bana: kama banamutwanga: kunaisha: banamutwanga ni mampemba muzuri: banamuvwika: njo bantu banaanza kulia sultani anakufa/ kunaisha/
F: sasa minaona Banza Kongo: hata mu hii tableau ingine: eko na nwyele yake sawa muzungu/
T: ni kweli? ile nywele aina ya muzungu/ ni nywele yake anaanzaka kushuka/
F: kushuka/
T: banaanzia kumushuka authenticité ile tuko naye sasa/
F: aah/
T: alikwanza kushuka na nkamba: pale banamushuka na: mikono/
F: eh/
T: alikuwa na ba: kwake: alikuwa sultani: kwake kulikuwa batoto banamuke: bake tu: babibi yake: tuloko twa mazhiba vile [indicates]:
F: mm/
T: bakubwa: lupango yote/ alafu tule tulianza wa karibu naye: tutaweza kuikala: tunamushuka: tunamushuka: tunaacha: tunamutengeneza9: kunaisha/
F: eh/
T: aah/
F: mm/ na: na bale ba: mbili: ni: ni bantu? banalia?
T: bana: ni batu beko nalia/ sawa bibi yake:
F: sawa moya: bibi yake anafanya vile [show gesture of hands covering head]?
T: bibi yake: apana/ bote tu ni bantu/ sasa kwa kufwata mimi nasema ni bantu: bibi yake iko pale: na nduku: bataweza kulia/
F: mm/
T: mm/ 		14.
F: Now it's this other painting [Painting 14: The Poisoned Banza Kongo], Banza Kongo dies.
T: Yes.
F: Number thirteen [fourteen], number thirteen. He lies on his bed.
T: As you see, he lies on his bed; [aside] just a moment34.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He lies on his bed. The clothes are those he wore first.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This thing they covered him with is a blanket, they put it over his legs. Alright, and then this is [hesitates] a pillow.
F: A pillow?
T: Yes. What they put [on his face], that is pemba [white clay].
F: They applied pemba.
T: They put white clay on his face because, when a chief dies, everywhere in our country...
F: Mm-hmm.
T:... he must be prepared. [Immediately after his death] they would say: "Don't cry."
F: Mm-hmm. [A brief interruption]
T: [aside] Excuse me. "You people, don't cry. Just be silent." [They would tell this] even to his own wife or whoever. And then they would go with him into another small house and prepare him there, pound white clay and put it on his face. But I don't know how to paint this -- is it feather [head dress]?
F: Yes
T: ...of lusara. We would say lusara wa nduba35, [a sign] of chiefship they would dress him with.
F: This, is this a bird's feather?
T: Of a bird, a certain bird. At home we have a name for it and see it often. It is a certain bird [reserved] for chiefs. It is, as it were, symbolic, or how do you say?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. And only after they have finished all the preparations, such as pounding the white clay for him and dressing him up, the people begin to mourn the dead chief. That is how it ends.
F: Now, I see that Banza Kongo, also on this other painting, wears his hair like a white man36.
T: Really? This is not a white man's hair style. He always wore his hair braided.
F: Braided.
T: They would braid [it] according to authenticité, tradition, something we talk about [lit. we have] now.
F: I see.
T: The braiding was done with a string, by hand.
F: I see.
T: At the chief's place there were [among] his wives small girls, with [small] breasts like this [indicates].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And also older ones, everywhere in his compound. But the small ones who were close to him would always do his braids and then take care of his appearance.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
F: Mm-hmm. And who are those two persons? Are they people who are mourning?
T: They are people who are mourning, [people] like his wives.
F: One of his wives does like this [show gesture of hands covering head]?
T: His wives? No. Both are just people. The way I see it, they are people; his wife is there together with a relative and they would mourn.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
15.
F: tena: sasa ni numéro douze [Painting 15: Chief Katanga and Chief Msiri]: nazani iko: [corrects] ah bado/ [aside] qu'est que ce que ça?
T: numéro douze/
F: ah oui/ ni quatorze: numéro quatorze: chef Katanga/ mm?
T: mhmh/
F: si unaona ni chef Katanga: banaikala ndani ya nyumba/ si vile?
T: ndani ya nyumba: inje kuko: bale: muntu tuko na: tufanye mukuba?
F: eeh/
T: iko na pulishi ya moto: sawa ilikuwa kupulisha moto: moto iko natoka: et puis na: ..?...: moto ile inazhungulusha ile cuivre:
F: mm/
T: cuivre inaanza kutelemuka/ et puis banafanya ile ma: ile nani: macroix/
F: macroix/ croisettes/
T: ni ya tangu zamani/ ile croix ni ya zamani/ njo inyewe ilikuya: [claps]
F: croisette/ mm/
T: eh/ sasa kama uliona pa drapeau/ tuseme pa drapeau ya Katanga balifanyaka ile:
F: eeh/
T: trois croix/ c'est que ni nani:
F: na hapa minaona iko na: na ingine ndani:
T: ile njo inye baanza tu kuuzisha: ni mali ile banaweka ku stock/
F: mm/ c'est un stock yake:
T: et puis banabeba: banakwenda banatuma mu fasi ya kwenda kuuzisha/
F: mm/
T: chini: peko: ile ni kibuyu ya kunywia/ njo ilikuya nkopo yetu:
F: eeh/
T: sawa vile unanipa ver:
F: eeh/
T: eeh?
F: aah/
T: ilikuwa kwetu: kibuyu/ na sasa tuko nakyo:
F: oui oui/
T: tunakunywaka ...?...
F: juu ya kunywa: nani: pombe/
T: mm/
F: sawa pombe eko mu kibuyu ya hapa [points]?
T: eeh/ ah: pombe iko mu kibuyu/ wala mayi/
F: mayi/
T: ya kunywa/ tulikuwa na mitungi yetu:
F: eeh/
T: ile mitungi ya: na: na: balitaka ni: ni pot ou bien quoi? pot/
F: mitungi?
T: pot/
F: ni kibuyu ao ni:
T: tulikuwa na byote bile: kibuyu:
F: mm/
T: ya kunywa pombe:
F: chungu:
T: ya mayi ya kunywa ilikuya s: ni pot? ou bien?
F: pot/
T: ah oui/ tulikuwa nayo: na sasa tuko nayo/ ata kule ku: Kipushi:
F: aah/
T: ule baba ya parcelle: sababu wee bado kufika: Madame anaisha kufika/
F: eh/
T: kule: baba ya parcelle: eko na ile/ njo: njo kule minapendaka kunywa mayi/ sababu iko mayi baridi/
F: baridi ...?...
T: sasa ile yangu ya mu tuku: ya mu cantine:
F: mm/
T: ooh: iko moto na malata:
F: mm/
T: eeh/
F: malata?
T: malata hii: ya: jua: kama jua ...?...
F: aah/
T: malata/
F: moto ina: in...?...
T: ...?...
F: moto ya malata eh/ mais: bo banvwalaka ma: bikwembe sawa:
T: kuvwala kwa bikwembe [laughs]: ile ni fasi yote/ sawa: example moya: nani alionyeshaka? hi: ule nani: Kalonji/
F: ah/
T: namujua Kalonji Albert?
F: oui/
T: ex-Albert/
F: oui/
T: ah bon/ alikuwaka sultani/ mu Kasai: Oriental/
F: mm/
T: mu Sud-Kasai/ bon: alifanyaka nini? alianza kufanya: eko navwala costume/ yulu anakamata: ile mariba: anavwala/ na ile: mukomboo: anaweka/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ c'est que ni busultani: tangu zamani bankambo ilikuya vile/ sultani anaweza kufanya:
F: na yee iko namna gani? mali?
T: mariba/
F: mariba/ njo nguo:
T: njo nguo ilikuwa nguo yetu/
F: mm/ mm/
T: na kushukayo: banashuka na raphia: inakuwa nguo: ah: muntu anavwala nguo/
F: mm/
T: kwa muku: ile eko ni mukuba:
F: mukuba:
T: lusambo ya mukuba10:
F: mukuba: bracelet: tena mapalata:
T: yote....?... ile ni yee alifanyaka tangu zamani/ ni kule nabo bazungu walipataka ile mawazo: balipatia bya kulya bakwanze kufanyaka ile bintu/ [chuckles]
F: eeh/
T: aah/ 		15.
F: Now, moving on, it is number twelve [Painting 15: Chief Katanga and Chief Msiri]. I think it's [corrects] -- wait a moment -- which is it?
T: Number twelve.
F: Now I have it, it is fourteen, number fourteen. Chief Katanga, right?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Isn't that Chief Katanga sitting inside a house, right?
T: Yes, inside. Outside there is a man, he is busy casting copper ingots37.
F: I see.
T: He works a bellows and then ...?... the heat makes the copper flow.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The copper becomes liquid and then they make these copper crosses.
F: Crosses, croisettes.
T: Since the times of old [they made] this cross. That's the one that became [claps]...
F: ... a croisette, yes.
T: Yes. It is the one you could see recently on the flag of Katanga.
F: I see.
T: Three crosses. It's -- what do you call it?
F: And here I see some others inside [the house].
T: Those are the ones they would sell. It's their wealth they put in stock.
F: I see, it's his stock.
T: And then they would carry them to places where they would be sold.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: On the ground there, this is a drinking gourd. [This thing there] used to be our cup.
F: I see.
T: Like the glass you are offering me38.
F: I see.
T: You understand?
F: Yes.
T: This is how it used to be at home, the gourd. We still have it.
F: Yes, yes.
T: We always drink ...?... [from it].
F: It serves to drink beer.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: So there is beer in this gourd [points]?
T: Yes, there is beer in the gourd, or water.
F: Water.
T: Something to drink. We [also] had our mitungi.
F: I see.
T: These mitungi, the called them pots, right? Pots.
F: Mitungi?
T: Pots.
F: [But] this is a gourd, or is it ....?
T: We had all this, a gourd...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... to drink beer from.
F: A vessel...
T: ... for drinking water. This was a pot, right?
F: A pot.
T: Ah, yes. We used to have and we have them up to this day. Even there in Kipushi...
F: I see.
T: This old man who owns the plot -- but haven't been there, Madame was there...
F: I see.
T: The owner of the plot there, he has such a pot. That's were I like to drink water because it is cold water.
F: Cold?
T: While my own water is kept in a barrel, a water container.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Oh, it gets warm from the sheet metal.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: Sheet metal?
T: This sheet metal, when the sun ...?...
F: I see.
T: Sheet metal.
F: The heat gets...?...
T: ...?...
F: The heat of the sheet metal, I see. Now [returning to the picture] [the chiefs] are wearing something like women's wraps...
T: Wearing women's wraps [laughs]. That is done everywhere. For example, one who used to show this was this Kalonji.
F: I see.
T: Do you know Kalonji Albert?
F: Yes.
T: Formerly called Albert.
F: Yes.
T: Well then, he was chief in East Kasai.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [Or rather] South Kasai. Alright, what did he do? He put on a suit. He took a raffia piece and wore it on top, and he put on this39 ...?...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes. It signifies the office of chief. This is how it was since the time of the ancestors. A chief could do this.
F: He [wore] -- what is this, mali?
T: Mariba [raffia].
F: Mariba, it's a piece of clothing.
T: It used to be a piece of clothing we had.
F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
T: It was woven. They wove raffia, it became cloth and a person would wear it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: About this here [points], this is copper.
F: Copper.
T: Copper wire.
F: Copper bracelets, and [they also wear] medals.
T: Everything...?... He [Chief Katanga] had been making [copper objects] since the days of old. And that's where the Whites got the idea. They gave [him] some food so [he would let them] start making these things. [chuckles]
F: I see.
T: Yes.
16.
F: sasa: [Painting 16: Msiri Kills Katanga's Son] banaua: nani? mutoto:
T: mutoto ya Katanga/
F: mutoto ya Katanga: na iko na kaburi: bale ba: bantu: [interrupts] sasa ni numéro: eeeh:
T: seize/ quinze/
F: quinze oui/ Msiri anaua: mutoto yake ya Katanga/
T: mm/
F: karibu na kaburi?
T: karibu na kaburi ya baba yake ya huyu mutoto/
F: baba yake: ya Katanga/
T: kaburi ya chef Katanga/ nayee alikwenda kule mangaribi: anakata kichwa/ [claps] anaua/
F: hii kisu: mi bado kuona kisu hivi/
T: ni mupanga/
F: mupanga/
T: iko kwetu/ nazania tunaitaka asema mwela wa: mwela wa na: wa quoi [searches]: ts: minasahabu: ni mwela/ mwela ni kisu/
F: ni mu tshiLu mu: mu:
T: kiKasai/
F: mu tshiKasai?
T: eeh/ mu Kiswahili tunaita mupanga/
F: mupanga/
T: bon/
F: machete/
T: machete eh: mais sasa she tu: sasa ile: ni kisu ya kwetu eh?
F: mm/
T: inekalaka hivi [shows]/ inatoka hivi/
F: aah/
T: huku ngambo: kuko makari: uku ngambo kuko makari/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ à deux tranchants/
F: mm/
T: eh/
F: bale bantu: ku mukongo?
T: bale bantu: ni bantu ya mukini: balikuwa kuona: aikufanyake mu uficho: yee alibambaka tu/
F: mm/
T: sasa unaona lungine asema [whispering] yayayaya: anaua:
F: mm/
T: [still whispering] huyu ungine: eh: anaua tu/ huyu ungine: yaa: njo muntu vile eko? huyu ingine: ah ah ah ah: ni bamastajabu kweli:
F: [laughs]
T: banaua: [claps] ...?... [ends whispering]
F: ..?.. kila iko na geste ya:
T: aah/
F: na geste ya surprise/
T: eh/ [still in the voice of the spectators] anaua/ kunaisha/
F: kunaisha/ ile ni: sawa ile nyumba murefu vile ni nini?
T: ni chefu yenyewe/
F: ya chefu?
T: ilikuwa nyumba ya chef Katanga/
F: mm/
T: sasa kiisha kuua: yee anabeba byote/ [makes gesture of finality] 		16.
F: Now they kill the child... [Painting 16: Msiri Kills Katanga's Son]
T: The child of Katanga.
F: The child of Katanga. And there is a grave and those people [interrupts] -- no it's number...
T: Sixteen. Fifteen.
F: Fifteen, right. Msiri kills Katanga's child.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Close to a grave?
T: Close to the grave of this child's father.
F: His father being Katanga.
T: Chief Katanga's grave. He [Msiri] went there one afternoon and killed the child by cutting off his head.
F: What is this knife? I never saw one like it.
T: It is a machete.
F: A machete.
T: We have it back home. I think we call it mwela, mwela wa... -- what was it again? I forgot -- it's mwela and it means knife.
F: In Tshilu...
T: In the language of Kasai [Tshiluba].
F: In the language of Kasai?
T: Yes. In Swahili we call it mupanga.
F: Mupanga.
T: Alright.
F: Machete.
T: Machete, right. But even today we have this knife that comes from our country.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It sits [in your hand] like this [shows] and then it come out like that.
F: I see.
T: This side is sharp and that one too.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, it's a double-edged knife.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
F: And who are the people in the background?
T: Those are people from the village, they came to watch this. Msiri did not do this in secret. He just grabbed the child.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Now you can see one of them commenting [whispering]: "Well, well, he is killing [him]."
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And this other one says [still whispering]: he's killing him. And another one says: "Is that any way for a human being to act?" And another one who just says: "Ah, ah, ah." All of them are truly terrified.
F: [laughs40]
T: "He is killing [lit. they kill] [claps] ...?..." [ends whispering].
F: ...?... each [of the people] makes a gesture of...
T: Yes.
F: ... a gesture of surprise.
T: Yes. [still in the voice of the spectators} "He is killing [him]." And that was the end of it.
F: That was the end. What is this long house there?
T: It belongs to the chief.
F: The chief?
T: It was Chief Katanga's house.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But now, having done the killing, Msiri took away everything. [makes a gesture of finality, rubbing his palms together]
17.
F: bon: sasa: ni numéro seize: banaua Bodson [Painting 17: Msiri Kill Bodson]/ Bodson na magalasi yake/
T: mm mm mm/
F: [laughs]
T: na Bodson alikufa:
F: uliona foto yake ao?
T: apana/ niko natumika tu ku kichwa/
F: ou bien? ku kichwa/
T: yote niko naleta kwenu ni kutumika tu kwa kupenta tu: paka minaikala nawaza: minafanya croquis: allez/ kwa hii: voilà/ hii eh? tableau tena hii: ii: ni pose yake/
F: mm/
T: ii: naliessayer mu kitabu ya ile ya histoire du: du Rwanda:
F: mm/
T: kama unaona fasi moya beko bachefu mbili banauana eh?
F: tuko naye/ tuko naye hapa/
T: mm/ njo ile nali: nalibeba/
F: aah/
T: eeh/ nalibeba ile position kwa lakini:
F: position ya: yake ya Msiri?
T: ya Msiri: eeh/ nazania ni vile/
F: eyo/
T: mm mm/ njo ile tu/ kwa hii yote hapana: ?ningeanza kufanya mi moja/ sauf na ile ya: ya: ya Kimbangu:
F: aah minaona hapa mafigures numéro quatre/
T: bon: ile nali: beba kwa ...?... kule/
F: mm/ mm/ mm/ ya Kimbangu? oui: ulikamata ku: [pointing to Painting 25: Simon Kimbangu in Court]
T: Kimbangu nalikamata ku hii journal: ya Mwana Shaba eh?
F: oui/
T: tena naliandika kule chini kama ni pièce ya: Elebe Lisembe/
F: ah oui/ mm/ [mumbling aside] hii njo histoire Rwanda/ anasoma: anasoma?
T: nani?
F: wee una: una: unasoma hii? [pointing to the book]
T: nalisoma: aah niliisha kusoma yote/ sa: balinipa na mi paka vile iko: nalikuta naye tu batoto kidogo/ baliisha kuharibisha na mafuta vile: minasema non: munipatie hii/ banasema beba/ njo minakwenda:
F: ...?...
T: eeh: minakwenda: minaanza kusoma sasa/ na minakamata minapanga ku nyumba/
F: [reading] Histoire du Rwanda par Abbé Alexis Kagame/
T: mm/
F: [continues reading] Bibliothèque de l'Etoile: Leverville/ Congo Belge/ Leverville? kama ni wapi?
T: Le: Leverville? aah sifahamu: nazani ni mu Zaire? eh?
F: Leverville: inapashwa kuwa mu Zaire/
T: ile: mitatoka sawa ni Libreville apana/
F: [continues reading] Imprimé en Belgique/
T: ou bien mu Rwanda/ [looking at the book] ah ni: ni Belgique? ...?...
F: imprimé en Belgique/ bon/ donc: sasa mu tableau ya Bodson: ulikamata hii position/ hii/
T: ahah/
F: kwa: Histoire du Rwanda/ bantu kule banakimbia?
T: bantu ni bale baliona Msiri anaua Bodson:
F: mm/
T: balisema kumbe chef ana: tomboka/ anaua hii nani: anaua muzungu: sasa shee tutafanya namna gani/ pale baliona bengine na mabunduki: allez: banaanza ku: pika: mabundiki: [claps] bantu wanakimbia/
F: mm/
T: na mukini: inakufa/
F: bon/
T: mm?
F: ile mandeke/ unaweka tu juu ya ku...?...
T: ndeke naweka tu juu ya kutengene: juu ya kama ni ciel eh?
F: aah/
T: sawa mu ciel ?hamuna kubakia bule [chuckles] kwa ku dessin:
F: [chuckles]
T: yapashwa kutengeneza/
F: mm/
T: aah/ 		17.
F: Fine, no it is number sixteen, Bodson is killed [Painting 17: Msiri Kill Bodson]. [There is] Bodson with his eyeglasses.
T: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
F: [laughs]
T: And Bodson died.
F: Did you see a picture of this, or...
T: No, I worked it out in my head...
F: ...in your head.
T: Everything I am bringing to you was worked out while painting. I take a while to think, then I make a sketch, and there it is. In this particular painting, however, his pose...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... I tried to reproduce from a book on the history of Rwanda.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: In one place two [in that book] you see two chiefs who are killing each other, right?
F: We have it, we have [that boo]k here.
T: Mm-hmm. That is where I took it from.
F: I see.
T: Yes, I copied that pose, but ...
F: Msiri's pose?
T: ... [only the pose] of Msiri. Yes, I think that is correct.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's it. This is not [something I did] with all these [paintings]. Those I did by myself with the exception of the one about Kimbangu.
F: Ah, here I see that it is number four among the illustrations41.
T: Well, this is where I took it from.
F: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.[The painting] of Kimbangu, you took it from... [pointing to Painting 25: Simon Kimbangu in Court]
T: [The painting of] Kimbangu I took from this paper, Mwana Shaba42, right?
F: Yes.
T: And there I wrote on the bottom that it was [a picture taken from] a play by Elebe Lisembe.
F: Ah yes, mm-hmm. [mumbling aside]. [So] this is the history of Rwanda. You read it, you read it?
T: Who43?
F: You read this [book] [pointing to the book]?
T: I read it. Ah, I read the whole [book]. They gave it to me as it is now. I met some small children who had it and they had spoiled it with grease spots. I said: "No, give it to me." And they said: "Take it." So I went away [with it].
F: ...?...
T: Yes, I went away and began to read it. I took it and put it [among my other books] at home.
F: [reading] History of Rwanda by Abbé Alexis Kagame.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: [continues reading] Bibliothèque de l'Etoile, Leverville, Congo Belge. Leverville? Where might that be?
T: Leverville? Ah, I don't know. I think it is in Zaire, right?
F: Leverville, this must be in Zaire.
T: It sounds like Libreville but that can't be it.
F: [continues reading] Printed in Belgium.
T: Or in Rwanda. Ah, [looking at the book] it was in Belgium? ...?...
F: Printed in Belgium. Alright. So in the painting of Bodson you copied this pose.
T: Yes.
F: From the History of Rwanda. The people there [in the background] are running away?
T: Those are the people who saw Msiri killing Bodson.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They said: "So the chief exploded. He killed this white man, what are we going to do now?" And there they saw other [whites] who began to fire their guns. So [claps] the people fled.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And the village died.
F: Alright.
T: Mm-hmm?
F: Those birds, you put them there in order to...?
T: The birds I put there to compose [the painting]. Above, there is the sky, right?
F: I see.
T: The sky should not remain empty [chuckles]. It's matter of design.
F: [chuckles]
T: It has to be composed.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
18.
F: [picking up Painting 18: Msiri is Beheaded] sasa: ile histoire ya kichwa yake/ ts/
T: ahah/
F: kichwa yake/
T: bon/ ni mwili yake inalala pale chini:
F: [pointing] hapa?
T: eeh/ unaona na ile bintu yote ya busultani yake/
F: na ule muntu hapa ndani ni: numéro dix sep
T:
T: dix sept/
F: kichwa yake ya/ ule muntu u: eko ndani: non: moya anaikala/
T: ule:
F: anachoka?
T: ule anaikala: asema anachoka: vile anarudia: shi iko nafanya mikono hivi [points]/
F: aah/
T: ivi/
F: ivi/
T: [stressing] ivi/
F: oui/
T: c'est que ni kufwa/ atakwenda:
F: aaah/
T: atakwenda na ...?...
F: sasa: ni kusema: inaonyesha:
T: kuko kukauka kwa muntu/ eh? c'est kama muntu anatafuta kufwa/
F: anafanya vile?
T: anakaukaka/ kuko ingine anakufwaka hivi/ [shows posture]
F: oui/
T: kuko anakaukaka: kuko anakaukaka hivi/ kuko ingine anakaukaka mikono/
F: mm/
T: hivi/ eeh/ sasa anaanguka: anafanya hivi/ ah/
F: c'est un geste de la mort?
T: mm/
F: kama anafanya:
T: c'est ça/
F: aaah/
T: sasa ataanguka chini: atakufa/ bale nabo: banaanza kwenda na ile kichwa/
F: na tena yee: atakufwa?
T: nayee atakufwa/ sasa kule kwenda kufikia kichwa: njo akuna muntu [gesture of finality, clapping/rubbing palms] ata moja: anajua/
F: mm/ paka ule muzungu:
T: mm/ ah ile ni bulongo [points]/ ile mi nilifanya asema ni sorte ya bulongo wa kati: naweza ...?...
F: ule muzungu ni nani?
T: non/ ni baexplorateurs/ balikuwa mingi eh/ bengine beko mbele huku [points beyond right edge of painting] ni kwa kuonyesha tu:
F: asema ...?... weka bilima: minaona ku: matableaux yako: ao: haina mabilima mingi hapana/
T: ah mi naliweka juu ya kutengeneza/ ...?.... nakamata position wa nani: style mu nani: quoi nani: nikuprésenter matableaux namna moya apana/
F: mm/
T: yapashe ni kufa: ni: ikuwe changé eh?
F:mm/
T: eeh/ 		18.
F: [picking up Painting 18: Msiri is Beheaded] Now it is this story of his head]. Well.
T: Ah.
F: His head.
T: Alright. This is his body lying there on the ground.
F: [pointing] Here?
T: Yes. You see [it] with all the paraphernalia of his chiefly office.
F: And this person here in... [interrupting myself] number seventeen.
T: Seventeen.
F: The head of [Msiri]. [Who is this man] there, sitting down44
T: That one …
F: Is he tired?
T: The one who is sitting -- he is tired and [wants to] return. Doesn't he hold his arms like this [points]?
F: I see.
T: Like this.
F: Like this.
T: [stressing] Like this45.
F: Yes.
T: It means he is dying. He'll go.
F: I see.
T: He'll go to ...?...
F: Now, this is to say he shows...
T: A person gets rigid, right? It happens when a person is about to die.
F: This is what he does?
T: He is stiffening. There are others who die like this [shows posture].
F: Yes.
T: There are those who get stiff like this. There are others whose arms get rigid.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Like this, yes. Now he falls down and holds [his arms] like this, yes.
F: This is a gesture of death?
T: Mm-hmm. F; When he holds...
T: That's it.
F: I see.
T: In a moment he'll fall down and die. Those [others] march on with that head.
F: Once more: he will die?
T: He is going to die. Now as to where the head ended up, there is no [black] person [gesture of finality, clapping/rubbing palms], not even one, who knows [this].
F: Mm-hmm. Only this white man [does].
T: Mm-hmm. [noticing a part of the picture I am looking at]. Ah, that is soil [points]. I painted a kind of soil in the middle. I can46 ...?...
F: Who is this white man?
T: No [not one], it's the explorers. They were many, others are further ahead, here [points beyond right edge of painting]. This [one white] is only to indicate [that there are others].
F: You put mountains [on the horizon]. I notice that there are not many mountains in your pictures.
T: Ah, I put [them there] to embellish [the picture]. ...?... I don't take the position of -- how shall I put this? -- a single style in the pictures I am presenting to you.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It has to change, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes.
19.
F: [pick up Painting 19: The Beginning of Belgian Colonization] sasa: tunendelea mu: numéro: aaah: dix huit/ début de la:
T: colonie:
F: Belge/
T: Belge/
F: minaona hapa mu: nyumba hapa:
T: bon c'est un:
F: mu gauche/ ni nyumba ya bazungu?
T: apana: ni poste/ c'est à dire ni bureau/
F: bureau de poste?
T: ina: ilikuwa sawa sorte ya bureau/
F: aah/
T: c'est à dire: sawa territoire/ centre/
F: [reading from the painting] ya: na Vivi/ Vivi ni:
T: Vivi ni mukini na sasa iko/
F: namna gani?
T: ku: ma: Boma/ Boma/
F: Boma?
T: mm/ nazania sawa vile nalikuelezea kama: jana naliisha ...?... ku informations: balisema kama: munapatikana/ mwanamuke/ mama moja/
F: mm/
T: wa ile wakati baliyenga ile nyumba: ?anaisha balipandisha: nani: drapeau/ [interrupt for turning tape] 		19.
F: [pick up Painting 19: The Beginning of Belgian Colonization]. Now we go on with number eighteen. The beginning of...
T: ... the colony.
F: The Belgian [colony].
T: The Belgian [colony].
F: I see a house here in [the picture].
T: Well, this is...
F: On the left. Is this the house of the whites?
T: No, it is the post, that is to say, it is an office [building].
F: The post office?
T: It was a kind of office [building].
F: I see.
T: That is to say, [something] like the territorial administration, a center.
F: [reading from the painting] At Vivi. Vivi is...
T: Vivi is a village that still exists.
F: How so?
T: Near Boma. Boma.
F: Boma?
T: Mm-hmm. I think it's as I told you that I listened to the news yesterday [where] they said that there is still a woman, a certain old woman...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... from the time when they built this house. Then they raised the flag. [interrupt for turning tape]
20.
F: bon/ kumbe tunapashwa kurudia kiloko mbio mbio [rummaging]/ na ile: ts: ile tableau:
T: sawa vile:
F: kama ni numéro: nani: numéro: dix huit/ dix huit/ [Painting 20: The Congo Free State]
T: dix huit/
F: eh?
T: bon/ unasema juu ya:
F: mm/
T: tableau/ aina mbili apana/
F: haina mbili/
T: iko moja/
F: mm/
T: c'est que moja: ii ni shiku ile alisigné: ile signature yake: njo ina: réprésenter hii maneno:
F: mm/
T: ilitoka/ njo kusema wakati baliengager bamilitaires: ou bien bapoliciers: bo bote: mm? wakati waliita bantu ya mukini sasa banakuya nkundi: banayenga mukini karibu: na balipandisha drapeau: balisema kama: baCongolais banapata Indépendant mu mille huit cent quatre vingt cinq/
F: mm/
T: kuko ingine anasema kama mu mille huit cent quatre vingt quatre/
F: oui/ oui/
T: na mi minaona ni mu juillet mille huit cent quatre vingt cinq: nilijifunda/
F: na tunaona madrapeau mbili:
T: eheh/ drapeau mbili: inaonyesha kama: Congo: inakuwa indépendant/ mais: sous domination: sous domination/
F: oui/
T: ya baBelges/
F: mm/
T: njo ile drapeau ya hapa ya baBelges/
F: tena ulisema juu wana: wantu wanavwalaka:
T: bon/ bantu vile banavwala: oui/ bantu wakati ya sasa civilisation ya kizungu inaanza kuingia: kulikuwa tu: banaleta kanguo: sawa: kacol/
F: eh/
T: aah/ kamata tu: nani: cravatte: banawekako: hii manguo yo: maungo yote iko wazi:
F: mm/
T: allez/ c'est bien/ allez inenea/ [chuckles]
F: ...?...
T: he: ungine anakuweka tu kanguo pa mabeka: allez: inenea/
F: ah ndiyo/
T: ?nazani kunaisha/ na banamuke: kulikuwa kitambala/
F: ...?...
T: sasa ile wakati:
F: mm/
T: allez/ funga kitambala hivi: allez/ ça va/ inaenea/
F: he/
T: [chuckles] eeh/
F: njo yote/ 		20.
F: Fine, so now we quickly have to go back [rummaging] to this picture...
T: How so?
F: ...what is its number again, number eighteen. Eighteen47. [Painting 20: The Congo Free State]
T: Eighteen.
F: Yes?
T: Alright. You were saying about...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... the painting. There are not two pictures [in it]...
F: Not two pictures.
T: ... it is one.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: What makes it one is that this one [represents] the day when [Leopold II] signed. It is his signature that represents this affair [of setting up the Congo Free State].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: What happened is that they hired soldiers, or rather all those policemen, right? When [the whites] called together people from the village they became a community. They built a town nearby and raised the flag and said that the Congolese got Independence. [This was] in 1885.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There are others who say it was in 1884.
F: Yes. Yes.
T: As I see it, it was in July 1885. That is what I learned.
F: We see two flags.
T: Yes, the two flags show that the Congo was an independent state but under domination, under the domination...
F: Yes.
T: ...of the Belgians.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's the Belgian flag there.
F: Then you said something about what the people were wearing.
T: Alright. About how people dressed, yes. At that time, the civilization of the white man's world began to come into [the country]. They way it was, [the whites] brought a little piece of clothing like a small collar...
F: I see.
T: Yes. [They would say] "Take a tie." [People] put on these pieces of clothing but arms and legs [lit. all the members] remained uncovered.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: "Go on," [they would say] "that's good. That's enough." [chuckles
F: ...?...
T: Another one would put a small piece of clothing on your shoulders [saying:] "Go on, that's enough."
F: Ah, yes.
T: I think that was it. And [for] the women it was the kitambala [a wrap].
F: ...?...
T: Now in those days...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...[they would say:] "Put that wrap around [your head], that's enough.
F: Really.
T: [chuckles] Yes.
F: That's all.
21. tena: ah ya/ [looking at Painting 21: The Hanging of Chief Lumpungu] kutundika donc: sawa vile tulisema kutundika:
T: Lumpungu/
F: Lumpungu:
T: Lumpungu: oui/ sawa utaweza kuniuliza:
F: oui/ ile: ile:
T: mapoteaux mbili:
F: ...?... ka disctrict de Kabinda: sawa vile ulisema wee ulitoka: Kabinda ...?...
T: non/ Kabinda:
F: ni baba yako?
T: baba/
F: baba yako/
T: baba: alikuwa Kabinda: alifunda tena mu Kabinda mule/ miye niko: district yangu ...?...ni Kabinda/
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: si banatundika...?...
T: mi niko muLuba eh?
F: c'est ça/ muLuba/
T: ya Kasai/
F: bana: banatundika nani: Lumpungu:
T: Lumpungu/
F: nayee tuku: bourreau/ bourreau ana: anakota:
T: bourreau: ile anakokota ni tuku/
F: anakokota tuku/ ...?...
T: kiisha kutosha tuku: kamba inakamata mushingo: muntu ...?...ufa/
F: na kwa: nani: kwa nani: kwa bantu:
T: déjà bantu pale banaanza kuvwala manguo bien/
F: eheh/
T: kaputula: semishi: allez/
F: [chuckles]
T: bilatu ku mikulu mbele apana/ [chuckles]
F: hapana?
T: aah/
F: ah/ c'est vrai/ 		21. Then -- ah yes [looking at Painting 21: The Hanging of Chief Lumpungu], the hanging. As we said, the hanging...
T: ... of Lumpungu.
F: Lumpungu.
T: Lumpungu, yes. You can ask me [about it].
F: Yes. These...
T: ... two poles...
F: [The building marked] "District of Kabinda." As you said, you came from Kabinda48 ...?...
T: No. Kabinda...
F: It's your father.
T: Father.
F: Your father.
T: Father was a Kabinda and he still went to school there in Kabinda. I, my district ...?... [This happened in] Kabinda.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Didn't they hang...?...
T: I am Luba, right?
F: That's it, Luba.
T: From Kasai.
F: So they hanged Lumpumgu.
T: Lumpungu.
F: And then we have the hangman. The hangman pulls...
T: The hangman pulls away this barrel.
F: He pulls away the barrel. ...?...
T: When the barrel is removed the rope tightens around the neck and the ...?... dies.
F: And about the people...
T: At that time, the people there had already begun to dress well.
F: I see.
T: Shorts, shirts, that was it.
F: [chuckles49].
T: Except at first they did not wear shoes on their feet. [chuckles]
F: No?
T: No.
F: Ah, that's true.
22. bon: sasa: Simba Bulaya/ [take up Painting 22: Lions from Europe] ile kintu ya kushangaa/
T: na wee unasangaa eh? haukushikiake apana eh?
F: hapana/ jamais/ juu ya Simba niliisha kusikia/ Simba: Simba:
T: simba ya pori?
F: zamani/ non hapana simba ya s: simba ya pori/
T: mm/
F: Simba: nkundi ya: ilikuwa sawa nkundi ya balozi/ ngambo ingine banaita Simba: ngambo ingine: balikuwa bantu ba chui/
T: bon/ ile:
F: aah ni Anyoto/
T: bon/ minataka kuelezea ile unasema/
F: ku Nord/
T: ile unasema ah?
F: mm/
T: iko hivi/ sababu kwetu he? kulikuya zamani/ bantu/ muntu muzhima/
F: mm/
T: ataweza kuingia mu nyumba hivi: sawa twiko na wee eh? anaingia mu nyumba: anafanya dawa yake/ mama: magie/
F: ndiyo: ndiyo ile tunaona/
T: eeh: eh/ kisha kufanya dawa yake eh? ataweza kuchanger/ anakuya nyama ya pori: simba/
F: mm/
T: wala tembo/ ah: kama anachukia muntu fulani: anakwenda: [claps] anakamata: ageuke/ mais kuko: mm: mu ile mawazo unasema kama ulisikiaka mu ile ?njo unasema: muntu: alianza ku: kuvwala/ apana/ ile niliona ni mu kitabu ya Tintin au Congo/
F: mm/
T: Tintin au Congo [chuckles]: inasema vile eh? makati ile: ule: bwana ule padri eh? banakwenda kupatana Tintin: et puis alimuam: ule padre ule alikuwa chuki na Tintin/
F: mm/
T: et puis balivwika muntu moya: ngozi ya chui: eeh?
F: mm/
T: pamoya na: muti moya: banafanya mikulu: mikulu ya chui:
F: mm/
T: eko natwanga chini: mm?
F: mm/
T: eko natwanga chini: et puis nabo banasema amukamate Tintin: nyoka anamukamata/ apana/ aina ile apana/
F: mm/
T: ile ni maidées balileta: nani: c'est que njo ilikuwa maidées wakati ile: tuseme: bazungu wa ile wakati walikuwa njo walipoteza ile: madawa yetu: na bintu ingine11/ mais kulikuya [stress] muntu mwenyewe: anafanya dawa: anatoka chui/ kwa sababu mu mukini yangu mi kabisa kabisa/ kulikuyaka: baba moya/ alikwendaka: alikuwa muzee/
F: mm/
T: alikwenda kuoa mutoto mwanamuke eh? na maziba kidoko/
F: mm/
T: sawa ni kwetu eh? njo banaoeshanaka vile mingi/
F: mm/
T: kama muko na franga: utaweza kuoaka mutoto kiloko: wee muzeee naye: ile ?imvo nywele mweupe/ bon: ule mutoto mwanamuke hakupendake ule bwana/ ilikuwa paka leo: anakwenda kwabo/ leo: anakwenda kwabo/ bwana anafwata anakwenda naleta/ bwana anakwenda nafwata naleta/ mais: sasa shiku moya bwana alishirika: alichanger/ anakuya simba/
F: mm/
T: ule mutoto mwanamuke pa kutoka: alimukamata [clapps]/ na anamuua/ anamula na kumula: na mifupa inabakia/
F: c'est vrai?
T: kwa ile Simba Bulaya: ni: système: ilikuwa ya: bazungu/ bon/ balianza kufanya nini? balianzaka: kuvwala: bushiku/ nalikuelezea mara: mara ingine ?nalisema baba nayee alikuwa kupatikana/
F: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
T: tena narépéter asema na mimi mwenyewe/ si bongo apana: nikuelezea mambo ya kweli: mama yangu pale alinizalaka: mu KDL/ BCK sa: ya zamani:
F: mm/
T: mu Likasi/
F: mm/
T: kulikuwaka kilio kwa sangazhi/ mama alitokaka na miye/ mweupe changaliki tu: ts: niko ata kukalaba12/
F: mm/
T: nilikuwa na mu ntumbo/ anaelezeaka ata sasa/ ata kama tunakwenda ku Likasi: atakuelezea/
F: mm/
T: tulitoka: tunakwenda inje/ tunafika inje: mama anakamata ananiweka: asema ni: itoshe buchafu ya mu ntumbo eh? bon/ kiisha: i: batumbula bale balikuyaka/
F: ba: banani? batu?
T: bale batumbula/
F: tumbula?
T: batumbula/
F: njo jina yao?
T: njo tuli: na sasa hapa: uliza muntu yote anayua tu/ batumbula/ les: Simba Bulaya/ balikuya:
F: maana yake ya batumbula ni nini?
T: batumbula/ ni jina tu asema banamutumbula/ c'est que ilikuwa kiswahili ya bale bantu ba zamani/ banamutumbula c'est que: [claps] banamubamba: banakwenda naye hatuyue kule banakwenda/ c'est que banamutumbula/ mm? bon/ balianza ku: na balifika banakutanisha mama/ kisha kutanisha mama: balikuwaka na torche/
F: mm/
T: banatorcher: ts: banamuangaria: yulu na chini/ banaambiana tena mu kiswahili/ [claps or ts] di: tumuache eh? eko na mutoto/ ts: tumuache tu/ mais mutoto nilikuwa miye/
F: c'est vrai?
T: eeh/ balitoka: banakwenda/
F: bazungu?
T: ilikuwa chance: mama alirudia ku nyumba/
F: bazungu ao bantu yabo?
T: na bantu: na bazungu/ muzungu alikuwa: m: bawili ao moya tu/
F: mm/
T: mais bantu yabo: njo balikuwa mingi/ mais sasa: kiisha kama banakamata bale bantu: utakuta asubui: nguo ya ule muntu: yote ile alivwala/
F: ile nguo sawa ...?...
T: banaweka chini: kapitula:
F: na kitabu? [visible in the picture]
T: ni: livret d'identité/
F: livret d'identité?
T: eeh/ na carte: vilevile/
F: mm/
T: banakamata banaweka chini: kisha kuweka chini: na manguo yake: banabeba ule muntu: [claps] banakwenda naye/ mais: vile banaanza kusema eh? nazani uliisha: kutembea kipande ya Biano?
F: Biano ni?
T: Kundelungu: Biano/
F: Biano mi si:
T: kama unafika kule unakuta nyumba moya [conspirational] banayenga: kama iko mu mashua: unakuta nyumba moya banayenga kule/
F: mm/
T: chini/
F: mm/
T: ya: kilima/
F: mm/
T: bon/ kwa kusema kwa bantu eh? njo balianza kwenda na bale bantu: kubaweka kule/ na bale bantu banaanza kubapatia chumvi/ nani: chumvi: byakula ingine: na muntu kuwa munene: anakuwa sawa nyama tuseme/ et puis: finalemen
T: ...?... banaanza kula/ ni fasi ile asema balianza kulya bantu: ku Biano hôtel/ banaita asema Biano hôtel/
F: banakulya: bantu/
T: eeh/
F: bazungu banakulya bantu?
T: eeh: wakati ile/ c'était vers dix neuf cent cinqua: cinquante: cinquante et un: cinquante deux: cinquante trois: cinquante quatre: cinquante cinq: cinquante six: cinquante sep
T: huit même/ mais en cinquante neuf: iliishaka/
F: mm/
T: njo soixante: tulikuwa na Indépendant/
F: Biano hôtel?
T: Biano hôtel/ kuko Biano hôtel: ?utakuta ni nyumba moya [stress] munene sana kule/ tena muzuri sana mufano baliyengaka/ mais sasa iliisha kuwa ruine/ iliisha ...?...
F: ku kilima moya?
T: eh ku kilima moya hivi/
F: si njo ilikuwa prison ya nani:
T: yaa?
F: kiisha yake ilikuwa nani: nyumba ya: ferme ya Tshombe:
T: apana/ ile ni fasi ingine kidogo kule mbele/ mais nyumba inyee ile: ii kutakuta bien/ bien construite/ mais: kule kulikuya: banakuita hôtel Biano/
F: hôtel Biano/ [rummage] mm/
T: njo maana ya ile tableau/ minaza: nazania njo maana ya kwanza kushikia?
F: non/ maneno: shee tulijua zamani: juu ma: bantu wa simba ao bantu ba: ba chui/
T: apana simba:
F: tena bantu bamamba/
T: aah/ ile: bantu ni kweli balianza kufanya mu ngiza/
F: sawa: mu fasi ingine hapa mu Congo: bali: bachui: balikuwa: paka balozi/
T: bon/
F: nkundi ya balozi: ao: baligeuka: ao: ingine balivwala tu nguo/
T: mm/
F: na tena balikuwa na magriffes/
T: bon/
F: ya léopard/ mais griffes ya chuma/
T: ahah/ ile njo nilikuambia mu histoire ya Tintin/
F: ile tuliona: magriffes mi niliona na mecho yangu/ mu:
T: kweli?
F: ndiyo/
T: tiens?
F: balikamata magriffes: ilikuwa sawa kisu: muvringo/
T: eeh/ mm/ bon/ kisha anatwanga muntu anaua/
F: al: balifanya tu vile [shows]: mais: lakini ni kisu/
T: ni kisu/
F: mais: kama unaona: nani: kilonda: utasema: ni:
T: bon: ni kweli:
F: ni chui/
T: sawa mi niitika eh?
F: aah/
T: sawa ...?...
F: ile nilis: niliona/ nili:
T: wee uliona eh? bon/ ule muntu alipata wapi? anakwenda ku mikini ya pori kule:
F: mm/
T: akuna akili ya kufanya ile kintu: kuchongola kuweka ku mukono kuenea/
F: aah/
T: alafu alipata wapi?
F: mm: ndiyo/
T: [chuckles] ni kusema ni kweli/ balikuwa na magie mingi/ kulikuya: muntu tu ?lakini alichanger nyama tu ya pori:
F: mm/
T: anakamata muntu na: na mwenzake/
F: ah mm/ 		22. Fine, now to Simba Bulaya [take up Painting 22: Lions from Europe], something amazing.
T: So you are amazed, aren't you? You never heard about it, right?
F: No. Never. I have heard about the Simba [lions]. [Pondering the term] Simba, Simba...
T: ...lions in the bush?
F: In the olden times.... No, not the lions in the bush.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Simba, a group, it was like a society of sorcerers. In some regions they were called Simba, in others they were the Leopard people.
T: Alright, about that...
F: Ah [now I remember] it was the Anyoto [sic]...
T: Fine, I'd like to explain what you are talking about.
F: ...in the North.
T: Is that what you are talking about?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It's like this. Among us, it used to be that people, a living person...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...was able to enter a house just like this -- as I am now with you, right? The person would enter the house and do his charms, magic things.
F: [Impatient] Yes, yes, we see that.
T: Alright then. When he had worked his charms, right? He was able to change into a wild animal, [for instance] a lion.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Or an elephant. If he hated a certain person, he would just go [claps], take up [his charms] so as to change. But perhaps you understood this idea you are talking about [to mean] that a person would dress up [as an animal]. No [that's not it]. That I saw in the book Tintin au Congo.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Tintin au Congo [chuckles]. That's what it says, right? About the time when this missionary met Tintin and about this missionary hating Tintin.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And then they dressed up a man in a leopard skin, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Together with a stick they had fashioned into a leopard's paw.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He beats the ground [with it], right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: He beats the ground. And then they tell him he should grab Tintin. Instead, a snake grabs him [the leopard] man]. No, that is not it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Those are notions that were brought [here], notions, let's say, that were held at the time when the Whites were destroying our charms and other things. But it really was [stress] the person who worked the charms and came out as a leopard. Because, in my very own village, there used to be a certain man. He went to -- he was old ...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... he was going to marry a girl, right? One whose breasts were small.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That's how it is in our country, right? This is how many marriages are arranged.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: If you have money you can marry a small child even though you are old and your hair is white. Alright, so this girl did not like that husband of hers. She would arrive [at his place] and return to her [parents'] home, every time. The husband would go after her to bring her back, she went home the same day. But one day, the husband got angry. He changed into a lion.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: When that girl went outside he grabbed her [claps his hands] and killed her. He devoured her and [only] the bones were left over.
F: Is that true?
T: As regards Simba Bulaya it was a system the whites had. Alright, what were they up to? At night they would dress up [as] I explained to you on another occasion and told you that my father had met them.
F: Yes, yes.
T: And [now] I repeat: [it also happened to] me personally. This not a lie, what I am explaining to you is true: [It happened in the place where] my mother had given birth to me, in the KDL [railway workers' compound] -- BCK it used to be called.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: In Likasi.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There had been a wake at my [her] aunt's. Mother left with me, I was still light-skinned, a toddler.
F: Mm.
T: And she carried me on her belly50. She told me about this just recently; if we go to Likasi she is going to tell you about it.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: So we left and went outside. When we were outside, mother put me down to let me relieve myself, you understand? Alright. That was when the Batumbula came.
F: Who? People?
T: Those Batumbula.
F: Tumbula?
T: Batumbulax51.
F: Is that their name?
T: That is what we [called them]. And even now, ask, everyone knows [about them]. Batumbula. The Lions from Europe. They came...
F: What is the meaning of "Batumbula?'
T: Batumbula. It's just a name, saying "they butcher a person [lit. him]." This was an expression52 those people used long ago. "They butcher a person," that is [claps] they catch him and go away with him [and] we don't know where they go. That is the meaning of "they butcher a person." Mm-mm? Alright. So they came and met mother. When they got close to her -- they always carried a flashlight --
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... they put the flashlight on her and looked her over from head to foot [lit. above and below]. Then they told each other in Swahili [claps] "Hey53, let's leave her alone, right? She has a child with her. Let's just leave her alone." But I was that child.
F: Is that true?
T: Yes. They showed up and went away.
F: Whites?
T: It was a piece of luck. Mother back to [our] house.
F: Were they whites, or their black people?
T: Black people as well as whites. There was one or two whites.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But their black people were many. But now [back to the story]: After they had caught those people [they were after], you find the clothes of that person in the morning, everything he had been wearing.
F: These clothes...?...
T: They put them down [on the ground], [his] shorts...
F: And the book [visible in the picture]?
T: Those are his livret d'identité.
F: His livret d'identité?
T: Yes, his card and such things.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They would take it put it down and, after that, his clothes. Then they would carry this person [claps] and go away with him. Rumor has it -- I think you already [heard of it] -- they traveled to the region of the Biano.
F: Biano, that is?
T: [Near] Kundelungu, Biano.
F: Biano, I don't ...
T: When you get there, you come to a house [conspirational] they built, near the railway. You come to a house they built there.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: At the bottom ...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...of a mountain.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright. This is what people tell, right? [The Batumbula] would go away with those people and put the them. Than they gave salt to them, salt and other food and the person would get fat. Let's say, he was [treated] like an animal. And then, finally ...?... they ate [him]. That is the place were they ate people, at the Hotel Biano. They called it Hotel Biano.
F: They ate people.
T: Yes.
F: Whites ate people?
T: Yes, in those days. This was around 1951, '52, '53, '54, '55, '56, '57, even in '58. But in 59 it stopped.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Because in '60 we had Independence.
F: Hotel Biano?
T: Hotel Biano. The Hotel Biano is there, [stress] a huge and very beautiful building they put up. But now it is a ruin. It was..?...
F: Near a mountain?
T: Yes, near a mountain
F: Wasn't this a prison of..
T: ...of?
F: And then it became a farm house owned by Tshombe54.
T: No, no that is another small place before [you get there], Tshombe's farm. But the building [we are talking about] was well constructed and that one was called Hotel Biano.
F: Hotel Biano [rummage], mm-hmm.
T: That is what this painting [of Simba Bulaya] is about. I guess it's the first time your understand its meaning?
F: No, because we have known for long time about the Lion or Leopard people.
T: Not lions...
F: and also the Crocodile55 people.
T: [exasperated] Aah, yes it is true that there were people who operated in the dark.
F: Such as in some places here in the Congo, the Leopard people were just sorcerers.
T: Fine.
F: They were groups of sorcerers, they may actually [have] changed, others just dressed up.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Furthermore, they had claws.
T: Fine.
F: Leopard claws, but those claws were made from iron.
T: There you are, that's what I told you [it says] in the story of Tintin.
F: We have seen this. I saw the claws with my own eyes in ...
T: Really?
F: Yes.
T: You don't say so.
F: They took the claws, which were like a curved knife.
T: I see. Mm-hmm, alright, and then he would strike and kill a person.
F: [illustrating the gesture] This is how they would do it. But it was a knife.
T: It was a knife.
F: But if you saw the wound you would say...
T: [impatient] Fine, that's true.
F: ... it was a leopard.
T: [If you put it that way] I have to agree, don't I?
F: Well, yes.
T: That way ...?...
F: I saw this, I...
T: You saw this, eh? Fine. Where did this man get [the metal claws] from. He just roamed the villages and the bush there.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: There was no knowledge to do this thing, to fashion it so that it fit an arm.
F: Aah.
T: So where did he get it from?
F: Mm-hmm, yes.
T: [chuckles] That is to say, it was true, they had many kinds of magic. The fact is, a person changed into a wild animal.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And he grabbed his fellow man.
F: Ah, mm-hmm.
23. bon/ Simba Bulaya tunaisha: vingt deux: eeeh [pick up Painting 23: The Arrival of the Railroad at Sakania] le chemin de fer/ mashua inafika nani: Sakania: Sakania:
T: Sakania/ en mille neuf cen
T:
F: sasa ulipata ile modèle ya mashua ulipata wapi? [chuckles]
T: mille neuf cent et cinq eh? apana/ ile modèle ya mashua?
F: eeh/
T: puisque nalionakayo/ sikuona mille neuf cent et cinq apana/ mi niko mi né en dix cent quarante sept/
F: oui/
T: bon: mi nalionayo mu: mu KDL humu zamani mu mamille neuf cent [hesitates] cinquante cinq:
F: aah/
T: ou bien cinquante quatre: ilianza kuexister: tulianza kuita asama kamalamba/
F: kamalamba?
T: kamalamba/
F: njo:
T: njo jina yake eeh/ kamalamba ka kwanza/
F: maana yake ya kamalamba in nini?
T: ooh ni jina tu banaleta: mais: minazani kama kuko bakubwa wengi wataweza kujua maana ya kamalamba/
F: mm/
T: mais: kamalamba kale: banaanza kubeba bantu eh? unaona mavoitures?
F: oui/
T: ilikuwa tu: mbao: allez: bo banakokota bantu tititi: banafika banabaweka pale batabaweka: sawa hivi unaona lwa kitambala iko ku barrière:
F: eeh/
T: akukuwe gare: gare ilikuwa paka pale munashukia pa barrière: allez o: wende: kunakwenda kwenu/ bale ban: benye banduku wanakuya kubalamukia: na kubapokelea/
F: mm/
T: njo rail ya kwanza/ na ile inye ni kutoka mu Afrique du Sud: njia iliungana: na ii ya: ku Shaba:
F: ule: eko na dra: kadrapeau yake juu ya:
T: unaona: ule machiniste iko na katika rouge/
F: aah/
T: anasignaler/ dangereux? ou bien/
F: oui/
T: asema apana: njia iko tu muzuri bleu/
F: bleu?
T: aah: anafungula barrière: allez/ [chuckles] anapita/
F: aaah/
T: mm/
F: mm/ na nani: ya mapoteaux:
T: aah: poteaux/ poteaux ni ya téléphone/
F: ya téléphone/
T: mm/
F: inafaata: kila mara inafwata mashua/
T: ni kweli ile téléphone ya ku nyumba ile: [laughs]
F: mm/
T: unanyonga: nanyonga: nanyonga: nanyonga: nanyonga/
F: [laughs]
T: allô/ non/ unanyonga: nanyonga: allô/
F: [laughs]
T: apana/ sasa: iko: nani: modernisé/
F: aah/
T: eeh/ 		23. Alright, we are finished with "Simba Bulaya," number twenty-two56. Let's see [pick up Painting 23: The Arrival of the Railroad at Sakania], the railways. The railroad arrives at Sakania.
T: Sakania. In nineteen hundred and...
F: Now, where did you get the model of this engine from [chuckles]?
T: 1905, right? No -- the model of the engine?
F: Yes.
T: But I saw it. Of course not in 1905. I was born in '47.
F: Yes.
T: Alright, I saw it long ago here in the KDL [railroad company] depot, in nineteen hundred [hesitates] fifty-five.
F: I see.
T: Or was it fifty-four. It was still around and we called it kamalamba.
F: Kamalamba?
T: Kamalamba.
F: That is...
T: That was its name, kamalamba, [from the time when the railroad] started.
F: And what is the meaning of kamalamba?
T: Oh, that's just a name the gave it but I think there are many old people around who know the meaning of kamalamba57.
F: Mm-hmm. T" With this little kamalamba they began to transport people, right? You see the cars?
F: Yes.
T: They were made of wood, that was all, and they carried people tititi [an onomatopoeic describing the noise the train made] and would come to a place where they let off the people. As you can see here, there was [a person] wearing a wrap, near the railway gate.
F: I see.
T: There was no station. The station was where you got off at a railway gate. [They would say,] "Get off, go home." And your relatives would come to greet and receive you.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: That was the first railway. This is the one that came from South Africa and was connected to the one in Shaba.
T: This [man there], why does he hold up those little flags?
T: You see this engineer holding up a red [flag].
F: I see.
T: He signals danger, or something like that.
F: Yes.
T: [The other one hold up] a blue [flag] saying: " Now, the route is free, blue."
F: Blue?
T: Yes, he opens the gate and that's it [chuckles], [the train] passes.
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm. And what about the poles?
T: Ah, the poles. Those are telephone poles.
F: Telephone [poles].
T: Mm-hmm.
F: They always follow the railroad.
T: Right. This telephone [somewhere] in a house [laughs]...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: You crank it, crank it, crank it, crank it, crank it...
F: [laughs]
T: Hello? Nothing. You crank it, crank it: Hello?
F: [laughs]
T: Nothing. Today, it's modernized.
F: I see.
T: Yes.
24.
F: bon/ kiisha: vingt trois/ kama ni ya trois/ [Painting 24: The Founding of the Mining Company]
T: eeh/
F: ni kuyenga:
T: kwa Gécamines eh?
F: Gécamines/
T: eh/
F: Union Minière/
T: njo: kuyenga kwa Gécamines: njo fasi inyewe tena: nitakuwa kuonyesha makati ingine asema kama balikombanyakapo ni mvita:
F: mm/
T: mapartie ya ma soixante: soixante: soixante trois: kulitoka mvita ya sécession ya Katanga/
F: minaona mampala inakawa:
T: c'est que ilianza/ mampala ichangaliki kiloko:
F: kiloko/
T: kama ...?... shi unaona kama iko kidogo sana/
F: mm/
T: ku dessiner kwangu/ c'est qui banaanza/ ile drapeau rouge: jaune: ni drapeau ya Gécamines/
F: rouge jaune?
T: aah: na sasa hapa/
F: mm/
T: jaune rouge ni drapeau ya Gécamines/ sawa vile ya ville ya Lubumbashi: ...?... kuko drapeau yake/
F: mm/
T: ville ya Likasi: kuko drapeau yake/
F: ndiyo/
T: ni dra: sababu: Gécamines kwa kufwata/ ilikuya un état dans un état/ c'est que kuwa gouvernement dans un gouvernement/
F: mm/
T: bon: njo mara ya kwanza kujiinstaller mu mille neuf cent et six/ anaisha ku: fanya installation yake: ni kuyenga sawa balianza mbele kuyenga: kisha kuyenga: baliisha yote/
F: mumbunda mbele/
T: na mumbunda aah/
F: bantu balipashwa kushangaa/ ile wakati/
T: kweli/ balisagaa mingi: pa kuona mufano balianza kuyenga/ na ni bantu tena nabo: njo baliyenga/
F: mm/
T: bantu beushi/ na bazungu balijuyakako/
F: ndiyo/
T: mais balikuya: kamata pale/ kamata pale/ mais: bantu banayenga: ni vilevile/ iko/
F: sasa baliona namna gani ile mumbunda?
T: tunaiona na sasa hapa iko natosha shmoko:
F: oui oui: mais: kule ku mwanzo si balikuwa na mifano ya:
T: aah: balisagaa/ sawa kwa: ku mwanzo?
F: eh/
T: mais qu'est ce que c'est que ça? motoka? ?fumo: mais: c'est quoi? eeh: ni nini? posholo: ii ya kufanya nani?
F: mm/
T: tout ça: et puis: polepole: balipata akili: allez/ saa ii nayee ilianza: [pointing a crane in painting] unaitaka namna gani?
F: la grue/
T: la grue eh?
F: mm/
T: ça? minawaza pa: pa kuyenga étage: utaona iko kule eh?
F: eeh/
T: ni grue eh?
F: mm/ grue/
T: voilà/
F: grue ni sawa: si unaona ndeke moya/ la grue/
T: aah/
F: ndeke moya na: na nani:
T: na shingo mulefu/
F: shingo mulefu/
T: aah/ minamufahamu/ eeh voilà/ sasa njo ile: baliweza ku: kuweka: na bo banaanza kusagaa/
F: mm/
T: umu kote ku ma: kule ku mpembeni kule maz[ones]/ ku ile tableau ingine nazani unaona minafanya tu: njia tudogo:
F: ndiyo/
T: asema/ sasa uku shifanye: c'est que kuwa tu: na po pa pori beko na ii tele: zone Kenya:
F: mm/
T: banaanza kuita asema nyashi/
F: mm/
T: mu nyashi/
F: mm/
T: c'est que baliyenga tu: na nyashi/
F: mu nyashi?
T: eeh/ batu banayengayenga tu/ baba yangu na mi aliyenga tena kule/
F: ku nyasi?
T: mm/ tuko na parcelle na sasa apa/
F: c'est vrai?
T: tuko na parcelle: mais malgré: [chuckles] maévenéments ilipitaka: tunaisambia sana na sasa yasipo [claps] kupata/
F: kuisambia?
T: tunasamba sana/
F: sa: ku: ku nani: ku: ku ...?...
T: ku matribuneaux eeh/ Kinshasa: partout/ akuna suite/
F: hakuna suite?
T: hakuna suite/
F: ilipotea?
T: aipotee mais: mikanda iko:
F: oui/
T: juste/
F: mm/
T: mais: malheur: na sasa/ 		24.
F: Fine. Then [comes number] twenty-three -- if it is [in fact twenty-]three. [Painting 24: The Founding of the Mining Company]
T: Yes.
F: It's about construction.
T: At the Gécamines, right?
F: Gécamines.
T: Yes.
F: [The former] Union Minière.
T: It's construction at the Gécamines. It's the very same place as the one I am going to show another time [in the painting] about fighting during the war58.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It was during part of the years '60-'63 when there was the war of the secession of Katanga.
F: I see that the slag heap is still [low].
T: That's to show that [the operation] was at its beginning and there was as yet little slag.
F: Little.
T: ...?... Don't you see, it there was still very little.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It was my idea to draw it that way in order to show that they were beginning. This red and yellow flag is the flag of the Mining Company.
F: Red and yellow?
T: Yes, up to this day.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The yellow-and-red one is the flag of the Gécamines, like the one of the town of Lubumbashi …?… that is their flag.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The town of Likasi has this flag.
F: Yes.
T: Because the Mining Company used to be a state within a state, a government within a government.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Alright, it first established itself in 1906. It constructed its installations and there was a lot of building until everything was finished.
F: First the smoke stack.
T: The smoke stack, yes.
F: People must have been amazed in those days.
T: That is true, they were really amazed when they saw what was being built. Also, it was the people who did the construction work.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Black people [did the work], the whites had the knowledge.
F: Yes.
T: They came and said: "Pick up this there, pick up this there." But the people did the building. This is how it was and now it is there.
F: At the time, how did [people] see this smoke stack?
T: We saw that it was there and smoke came out of it.
F: Yes, yes, but in those days at the beginning, didn't they have examples...?
T: Ah, they were surprised. [You mean] in the beginning?
F: Yes.
T: They would say: "What is this, a car? What is that? Eh, what is it? Earth-moving equipment [lit. a shovel], what is this for?"
F: Mm-hmm.
T: All this [they would ask]. And then, slowly, they understood. At that time this thing [pointing a crane in painting] began [to work] -- how do you call it>
F: The crane.
T: The crane, is it?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This there? I think you will see it wherever they build the [upper] floors.
F: Yes.
T: It's a crane, right?
F: Mm-hmm. A crane.
T: There you are.
F: Crane, this like a certain bird [called] crane.
F: A certain bird with a...
T: ...long neck.
F: A long neck.
T: Yes, I know it. So, there you are. This is how it was then, [the whites] were capable of putting things in place and [the people] began to be amazed.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Everywhere here and there on the edge where the townships were. I think you saw on this other painting [of the smelter] that I painted little paths.
F: Yes.
T: I didn't do this here because there was still only bush [around the construction site] where they had Kenya township.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: In the beginning they called it nyashi (straw or reed).
F: Mm-hmm.
T: In [the township called] nyashi.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This was because [people] built with reed.
F: At nyashi?
T: Yes. People just kept building [their houses] all over the place. My own father still built there.
F: At nyashi?
T: Mm-hmm. We still have a lot there.
F: Is that true?
T: We have a lot, although with59 the events that happened, we had lot of palavers about it [claps] without getting [it back].
F: Having palavers about it?
T: We had lots of palavers.
F: At the ...?...
T: At the courts, yes. In Kinshasa, everywhere. With no result.
F: No result?
T: No result.
F: Was [the case] lost?
T: It wasn't lost, there are documents...
F: Yes.
T: ...that are valid.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But [we've had] bad luck, up to this day.
25.
F: bon/ sasa ni: arisi ya: Kimbangu eh? [Painting 25: Simon Kimbangu in Court]
T: mm/
F: ile ulikamata ku: ku nani? Mwana Shaba/
T: ku Mwana Shaba/
F: oui/ numéro: vingt quatre/
T: bon/ ilikuya: pièce ya:
F: théâtre non?
T: ya théâtre: ya Elebe Lisembe: ni ule aliu[claps]: aliweza kuwaza ile mawazo: nazania yee mwenyewe mbele balimu: balimuremercier kuko journal eh?
F: mm/
T: juu ya ile: pièce yake/ bon/ ni vile unaona: ali: mi: yee alifanya ile: pièce yake: na bantu beushi/
F: mm/
T: mais mi mu kupenta: nilifanya: bazungu: na vile bilikuya: na bantu mweushi/
F: mm/
T: njo vile/ naongeza drapeau/
F:mm/
T: naongeza portrait ya Léopold deux:
F: hii? [pointing]
T: eeh/ ni mimi naliongeza:
F: ndiyo/
T: voilà: njo vile kule/
F: ule nani mu:
T: ni mumpe kabeya/ soi-disant wakati ile Hemptinne: alikuyakapo nayee/
F: [laughs]
T: ?aniwe ile maneno/ na iko nafuta pipe: shimoko iko natoka: maidée yake ilikuwa tu asema: comment yee ataweza kufanya religion: que...?... mi shifanye reli: nani: religion yangu inaleta ya: kizungu? yee muntu mweushi afanye/ aikuwezikane hata/ mm/
F: na huyu ni protestant huyu?
T: ule ni juge/
F: juge?
T: mm: mm/
F: ah ule anavwala ma:
T: anavwala nani:
F: kale kale keupe/
T: c'est ça/
F: [aside to Ilona Szombati who enters] habari madame? [interruption, stop tape] bon/ donc: tulimaliza: ile: ya Kimbangu: jugement yake:
T: bon/
F: siyue kama uko na kintu ya kuongeza: sinon?
T: non/ akuna kintu ya kuongeza: ni sawa vile balimufungaka: na balimuuaka/
F: bale bamama? [pointing]
T: sema tu balikuuaka mu prison/ mais banasema alikufa mu: ah: mu prison/
F: prison/
T: mais: ni: [claps] juu balimufunga njo pale alikwenda kufia kule ku prison/ kama balimuacha: peut-être vie yake ilikuwa namna ingine/ 		25. Fine, now the story of Kimbangu, right? [Painting 25: Simon Kimbangu in Court]
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Where did you take [the model for this picture] from? Mwana Shaba?
T: From Mwana Shaba.
F: Yes, no. 24.
T: Alright, it was [a photo of] a piece...
F: ... of theater, no?
T: [A piece of] theater by Elebe Lisembe. He deserves credit for this idea and I guess he was congratulated by the journal in the presence of his teachers, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Now, as for his play, as you can see, I -- or rather he performed his play with black people.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But when I painted it I put in whites. And there are also some black people [in it].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This is how it was. And I added the flag.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [And] I added the portrait of Leopold II.
F: This one?
T: Yes, I added it.
F: Yes.
T: There you are, this is [what it looks like] over there.
F: And that person there?
T: That was a missionary60. It is said that Monseigneur de Hemptinne was present [at the trial].
F: [laughs]
T: ...?... this affair. He is smoking his pipe, the smoke is rising. His thought was: "How dare he [Kimbangu] found a religion. Am I not the one who brings his religion of the white man? We cannot have a black man [preaching religion], now way. Mm-hmm.
F: And this one is a protestant [minister]?
T: That one is the judge.
F: The judge?
T: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
F: A, he wears this...
T: He wears --- what do you call it?
F: ...this little piece of white61...
T: That's it.
F: [aside to Ilona Szombati who enters] What's new, madam. [interruption, stop tape] So, that was [the picture of] the trial of Simon Kimbangu.
T: Fine.
F: I don't know if you have something to add, otherwise...
T: No, there is nothing to add. This is how they locked him up and killed him.
F: And those women? [pointing].
T: [ignoring the question] Let's just say, they killed you in prison. People say that [Kimbangu] died in prison.
F: [In] prison.
T: What is was [claps], they locked him up and eventually he died there in prison. Had they let him out, perhaps his life would have been different.
26.
F: prison hapa? [Painting 26: Simon Kimbangu and John Panda in Prison]
T: ni ku prison ya kule [pointing to the right side of the picture]: unaona balimufunga minyololo: kule alikuta John Panda:
F: minyololo ile: machaînes?
T: eeh machaînes/
F: mm/ minyololo/
T: John Panda par example: alikuya ni bwana moya: na are: alikuwa mu Kinshasa mule/ mais alifia nayee: kama: alifia ku: kujua pourquoi tuko: mu butumwa? mais: apashwe shee bote mais tu: tukuwe égal/ c'est à dire mu butumwa ...?...déranger: tuko batumwa puisque balitukutanisha/
F: mm/
T: habakupenda kumushikia mawazo alikuwa naye:
F: mm/
T: [claps] baliweza: kumu: kumufunga nayee/ ni kufa kwake: atujue/
F: oui/ ...?...Panda:
T: aikukuwe paka yee/
F: Panda John/
T: aah/...?...
F: ...?... mu vingt cinq: minona:
T: ah/
F: tena: ngambo mbili/
T: oui/ aikukuwe paka yee/
F: mm/
T: mule mu buloko:
F: mm/
T: mulikuya mingi sana: bale balikuwa na mayele mingi/ wakati ile/ bale balianza kuwaza: kama: non: tufanye hivi: ou bien: muntu anaikalaka hivi: kuiko ku: muntu tu ya kusema muntu anaikalaka hivi: bote banaanza kubafunga/ mm/ njo bale ...?... beko mu buloko: nabo banasagaa: angaria vile banalamukiana ...?... abari gani? ah: niko tu muzhima/ wee na wee: aba ?unaona ?nkala chini: di: sema na wee uko ...?...
F: aah/ kumbe bale banani ba: mwenye kufungwa:
T: banasumbulia/
F: balisumbulia mingi/
T: ni ku kusumbulia tu:
F: bana:
T: eeh bo banasumbulia: abari gani? mi shijue/ na puis banaanza kuwa mpaka mu nkundi yabo: leo banalala: bunakatshika: [claps] moya anamo: eko wapi: abayue kule anakwenda: kesho: [claps] na vile bote: ts: banaishaisha/
F: hapa banaikala mu:
T: mu prison: bale njo bale baliona kama balikuwa: ni bantu: mastajabu/ habakubasikie hapana/
F: mm/
T: sababu: alikuwa prophète/
F: mm/
T: mais habakusikie ya kufufula kwa muntu: na kulamuisha muntu muzhima: ooh/ balisema bale balishtuka ata inje: mubafunge/ mais byakula:
F: ...?...
T: même pa byakula byabo angaria baanza kubasukumia: kufika tu busukuma: izhi iko akuya pale/ izi: unayua izi?
F: izi?
T: eh/
F: ndiyo/
T: inakuya pale: inaikala yulu ya byakula:
F: mm/ mm/
T: akukuwa mufano/ finalemen
T: balikufaka tu/
F: mm/ hapa: [points]
T: ile ni ntanda/
F: ntanda ya:
T: araignée/
F: ile ya: ya: ntanda yee ...?...
T: [chuckles] tunaitaka asema ntanda nkumbidi/
F: oui/
T: araignée [chuckles]/ ile ni kibambashi inapasukapasuka: fasi ya buchafu ile [inaudible] ...?...
F: Kasapa?
T: Kasapa/
F: si njo zamani: mbele alikuwa mu ville/
T: nani/
F: buloko/
T: eeh/
F: nani: Kimbangu/
T: alikuwa mu ville?
F: mu buloko mu ville/
T: apana/
F: ku avenue eh:
T: ...?... ilikuwa prison d'état Kasapa/ Kasapa ni ya ?tanguapo/
F: mais: non/ mbele: prison d'état ilikuwa mu ville/ hata sasa: ...?...
T: ile:
F: iko dépôt moya: ya ya: sijui kama ni nini/ dépôt pharmaceutique?
T: c'est vrai?
F: eeh/ mais zamani ilikuwa prison kule/
T: kama ni vile/ mais kwa kufwata sawa histoire: tunaisema:
F: mais: ni kweli: ndiyo/ kiisha: baliyenga kule Kasapa:
T: mm/
F: na tena alikufa Kasapa/
T: alikufa Kasapa/
F: kaburi: tunajua/
T: mm/
F: fasi tunajua/
T: kweli eh?
F: mm/ 		26.
F: This is the prison here? [Painting 26: Simon Kimbangu and John Panda in Prison]
T: It's at the prison over there [pointing to the right side of the picture] -- you see that they put him in chains -- and that is where he met John Panda.
F: [repeating Swahili term] minyololo means chains?
T: Yes, chaines.
F: Mm-hmm, minyololo.
T: Take John Panda. He was a man -- there in Kinshasa -- who also died because he wanted to know, Why do we live in slavery? We all should have equal rights. In other words, he was troubled by our being dominated and [came to the conclusion] that we were slaves simply because the whites had forced themselves on us [lit. made us meet with them].
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [The whites] did not like [John Panda's] ideas.
F: Mm-hmm.
T:[claps] So he was locked up. We don't know when he died.
F: Yes...?... Panda.
T: It wasn't just him.
F: Panda John.
T: Yes...?...
F: [On this picture number] twenty-five I see...
T: Yes.
F: ...two sides.
T: Yes, he was not alone...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...there in the jail.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Many were there in those days, and many [among them] were highly intelligent people who had begun to think about the situation and what to do about it. [The whites] began to lock up all different persons who spoke up62. And in prison they were surprised to meet others. Look [at the picture] how they greet each other: "What's new?" "Ah, I'm alright." And do you see the ones [lying] on the ground, [saying]: "And you, my friend, tell me, do you have...?...?"
F: I see. So those who are locked up...
T: ... talked to each other.
F: They talked a lot.
T: They simply talked.
F: They...
T: Yes, they chatted: "What's new?" "I don't know." And after a while they formed a group. [But] then it would happen that they went to sleep and the next morning one of them would not show up. Where was he? They did not know where he went. [claps] And so all of them would eventually disappear.
F: So here they are in ...
T: ... in prison, all those whom [the whites] regarded as extraordinary; they did not listen to them.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Because [Kimbangu] was a prophet.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They did not recognize that he could raise the dead and bring a person back to life. Even those outside who were surprised said: "Oh, just lock them up. But the food...
F: ...?...
T: Look, even the food they shoved [into the cell] for them -- that is how it came, it was pushed in -- there is an izi on it. Izi, do you know [the meaning of] izi?
F: Izi63.
T: Right.
F: Yes.
T: That is where it was, it sat on top of the food stuff.
F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
T: It was incredible. And in the end they just died.
F: Mm-hmm. Here [points]
T: That is a web.
F: The web of ....
T: .. spider.
F: This, the web ...?...
T: [chuckles] We call it ntanda nkumbidi64.
F: Yes.
T: A spider [chuckles]. This the wall, full of cracks, a filthy place [inaudible]...?...
F: [Was this at] Kasapa [prison]?
T: Kasapa.
F: Wasn't it in the old days in the [center of] town?
T: What?
F: The jail.
T: Yes.
F: [And] Kimbangu ...
T: ... was in town?
F: In the jail in town.
T: No.
F: On Avenue, what was it?
T: ...?.... Kasapa was the State prison. Kasapa has always been there.
F: No, but, at first, the State prison was in town. Even today...?...
T: That one...
F: There is this warehouse -- I don't know what it is, the pharmaceutic warehouse?
T: Is that true?
F: Yes, but this is where the prison used to be.
T: Maybe that is so. But when we follow history we say...
F: But it's true. Yes. Later they built [the prison there at] Kasapa.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: And then [Kimbangu] died at Kasapa.
T: He died at Kasapa.
F: We know his grave.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: We know the place.
T: Really?
F: Mm-hmm.
27. bon/ [Painting 27: The Monument of Leopold II] sasa: ule: Léopold/
T: ni monumen
T:
F: vingt six/
T: voilà:
F: Léopold alikuwa na jina?
T: Léopold?
F: na jina ingine: ku: kwa bantu?
T: apana/ tunayua paka Léopold deux/
F: Léopold deux?
T: eeh/ mbele alikuwa Prince: Léopold/
F: Prince Léopold/
T: et puis: baba yake kama ni nkambo yake: amekufa: Albert premier: yee anamukombola: anakuya: Léo deux/
F: baba wa:
T: ni vile eh?
F: mm/
T: non: Le: Léopold/ Léo deux/
F: ...?... mais: hakukuwa na jina?
T: akukuwa na jina ingine/
F: sawa: Rabodin?
T: Roi Baudouin: nayee me shijue jina yake/
F: ni bwana kitoko/
T: aaah kwa batu eh?
F: eeh/
T: ah non: Léopold alikuwa paka Léopold/
F: Léopold/
T: eeh/ Léopold deux/ jina yake tu Léopold deux/ nayee ule: Léopold deux: njo balisoupçonner na sasa kama ni : ali: eko: yee njo alikuwa tena Hemptinne/
F: Hemptinne/
T: eeh/ Jean Hemptinne Monseigneur/
F: Jean Félix/
T: Jean Félixi Hemptinne/ [chuckles]
F: sasa: ile tableau ya: monument/
T: mm/
F: n'est-ce pas? ni: ya: ts: vingt six/
T: bon vingt six/
F: numéro vingt six/ inaonyesha: monument yake: yee anapanda mu:
T: juu ya farasi/
F: ya farasi/
T: na ni kweli ilikuwa ku Kinshasa:
F: maneno ...
T: aah/
F: mm/
T: ilikuwa mu Kinshasa/ ilipomelewa: kiisha mashiku yee ?tudogo/ bon/ inaonyesha: ii ni palais de la nation eh?
F: mm/
T: apa sasa/ mais ni ilikuwa ni bagouverneurs zamani/ ile ni ville ya Kinshasa/
F: mm/
T: ni kweli: wakati ile baliyenga: ville ya Kinshasa: baliweka monumen
T: na kisha kuweka monumen
T: le vingt et un juin: balisema kama Kinshasa inabakia: ville/ eeh? kama ni agglomeration de la ville ou bien: si c'est comme ça/ Lubumbashi nayoo: ilikuwa mu quaran: quarante quatre/ et puis Likasi: troisième ville du Congo: ilikuwa mu quarante trois/ eh: mu: quara: eh: oui: quarante et un? quarante trois: quarante quatre/ Likasi ilikuwa quarante quatre/
F: mm/ tena: Kolwezi:
T: non: Kolwezi abakutane/
F: ah?
T: mm/ tunafahamu pal: njo balisigner ku gouverneur:
F: mm/
T: asema kama: Léopoldville inakuwa ile mwaka: ville/ bantu balikuwa kuikalamo: na byote/
F: juu ya nini uli: ulifwatula hapa: mu: ts:
T: mu nini?
F: eeeh: monument ndiyo: mais: mbingu/ minaona ni gris/
T: ni gris? ni kweli unasema bien/
F: [chuckles] haukukuwa na: na peinture bleue?
T: apana/ nilikuwa na peinture/
F: oui/
T: c'est que nalichanger puisque kuko temps/
F: mm/
T: ilikuwa saa ya ma: mangaribi ou bien saa ya bushiku:
F: mm/
T: eeh/ saa ya bushiku tuseme/ niliweza kuonyesha ile: wakati/ kwa kuonyesha monumen
T: nakudonner couleur ya monument/
F: mm/
T: ikuye jaune/ mm/ puisque ni chuma eh? ilikuwa chuma/
F: chuma ndiyo/
T: eeh/
F: chuma tu/ mm/ 		27. Alright, now to this Leopold [Painting 27: The Monument of Leopold II].
T: It's the monument.
F: [Number] twenty-six.
T: That's it.
F: Did Leopold have a name?
T: Leopold?
F: Did he have a nickname among the people?
T: No. We know him only as Leopold II.
F: Leopold II?
T: Yes. Before that he was Prince Leopold.
F: Prince Leopold.
T: An then, his father -- or was it his grandfather? -- died, Albert I. He replaced him as Leopold II.
F: The father of...
T: That's how it was, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: No, Leopold was "Leopold II."
F: ...?... But, didn't he have a[nother] name?
T: He had no other name.
F: Like "Rabodin65."
T: King Baudouin. I don't know his [nick] name either.
F: It was bwana kitoko [the 'well-dressed gentleman].
T: Ah, [that was what he was called] by the people?
F: Yes.
T: No, Leopold was just Leopold.
F: Leopold.
T: Yes, "Leopold II." His name was just Leopold II. Now, as to this Leopold II, up to this day there is the suspicion that he was also Hemptinne.
F: Hemptinne.
T: Yes, Monseigneur Jean Hemptinne.
F: Jean-Félix.
T: Jean-Félix Hemptinne [chuckles].
F: Now this picture of a monument.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Right? It's [number] twenty-six.
T: Alright, twenty-six.
F: Number twenty-six. It shows his [Leopold's] monument. He has mounted...
T: ...a horse.
F: A horse.
T: And it is the truth, it was in Kinshasa.
F: Because66...
T: Ah.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It was in Kinshasa. It was raised in a few days. Alright, this is what it shows: This is the Palais de la Nation, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: This is what it is now, but it used to be the Governor's palace in the old days. [And] this is the city of Kinshasa.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Truly, it was at the time when they built the city of Kinshasa. They erected this monument and when they had placed the monument, on June 21, they said that Kinshasa was now [incorporated as] a town, right? That it was an urban agglomeration, if I have the right term. [This was done for] Lubumbashi in '44 and then Likasi, the third largest town of the Congo, in '43 -- or was it in '41 -- in '43, '44. Likasi was in '44.
F: Mm-hmm. And then Kolwezi.
T: No, Kolwezi wasn't there yet.
F: Really? T; Mm-hmm. We know [about Kinshasa]. [There was a document] which the governor signed.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: What it says is that Kinshasa became a city in that year. People settled there and all that.
F: Why did you paint here on...
T: ...on what?
F: Well, there is the monument but the sky -- I see that it is grey?
T: Grey? Frankly, that is a good remark.
F: [chuckles] Had you run out of blue paint?
T: No, I had the paint.
F: So?
T: I did it differently in order to indicate the time of the day67.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It was in the afternoon or evening.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, let's say it was in the evening. That way I was able to indicate the time. [I did this] in order to bring out the monument, to give color to the monument.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It should be yellow68, because it was made of brass, right? It was [made of] brass.
F: Brass, yes.
T: Yes.
F: Just brass, mm-hmm.
28. na sasa: ma: martyrs: ya: ya U. M. H. K./ [Painting 28: Victims of the Miners' Strike] tena mbingu ni vert/ hapa/
T: bon: ni kweli/ mbingu inaonyesha kama: sasa unaona malampi iko nawaka/
F: malampi wapi? aaah: hapa?
T: ah nalampi/ yoo ile mustari tu yote:
F: oui oui: malampi:
T: ni malampi/ nazani: ni bushiku/
F: busiku tu/
T: eeh/ kuonyesha kuwa bushiku/ kama unaona uku chini: naanza na couleur: noire/
F: mm/
T: kule yulu: na couleur noire/ c'est que ni bushiku/
F: mm/
T: eeh/ sawa vile ilikuwa bushiku: njo ilitokaka ile maneno inye ya ba: martyrs ya: Gecam: ya Union Minière/ du Haut Katanga/ ile wakati ilikuwa Minière du Haut Katanga: sasa ni Gécamines/ ahah/
F: ile ni nini? [pointing] ma:
T: ile: ni bintu balitekaka/ ilikuwa madynamites:
F: madynamites?
T: oui/ ngambo ingine kulikuwa ba: Force Publique/
F: mm/
T: bale ba: soldats/ nabo balianzaka kupika masashi/ c'est que waliuaka bantu mingi sana/
F: na ule? [point out]
T: ule ni muntu anapikwa lisasi déjà: anaisha kuanguka chini/ mama ule anaanguka: kulikuwa mingi ilikufa na famille muzhima/
F: c'est vrai?
T: baba: mama: famille yake yote/ les on-dits: beko nasema: ooh: balibaitaka juu ya cinéma/ juu baone film mu kiwanza/
F:mm/
T: mais: journal ya: kesho nayee anasema kama: apana: balibaitaka juu: bao: bafanye réunion: na gouverneur mu kiwanza basikilizane/
F: mm/
T: mais kwa kweli pale minazania: ni cinéma/
F: maana ma: mandeke?
T: ndeke: ni saa ya bushiku: iko popo/
F: kupopo14?
T: chauve-souris/
F: chauve-souris/
T: eeh/ kuko ile: ndeke ingine ya bushiku anaikalaka na: nani: na mi: na mikila/
F: mm/
T: mukila yake murefu/
F: aah/
T: sijue jina yake muzuri/
F: oui oui/
T: eeh/ njo ile mbili: iko napita bushiku/ mm/
F: tena na: drapeau ya: ya Etat? [pointing]
T: drapeau ilikuwa déjà wakati yote/
F: mm/
T: macérémonies yote/ ou bien fête/ kulikuya paka: drapeau mbili/ ya Belges: na ya Etat: du Congo/ Indépendant/
F: mm/
T: ile ni mumbunda ya Gécamines:
F: mumbumda: na banavwala:
T: mu Lubumbashi/
F: sawa vile hii semisi?
T: ooh: sasa pale: bantu banaisha ku: kuvwala na bilatu na byote: banaisha kuvwala/
F: mm/
T: mais: ule: nabo sawa bale bantu iko banaanza kulomba makuta benyewe: kulikuwa bengine bamaskini/
F: mm/
T: balikuwa na manguo ya kupasuka? mm? njo balisema non: batuongezeko makuta: tupate namna ya kuenea na shee ku: kuvwala: na kulya/
F: paka yee anao[ne]kana:
T: eeh/
F: ?bien/ mm/ 		28. Now to the "Martyrs of the Katanga Mining Company" [Painting 28: Victims of the Miners' Strike]. Again, the sky is sort of greenish. [Pointing] Here.
T: Alright, that's true. The [color of the] sky is to show [that it is dark]. You see that the floodlights are on.
F: The lights -- where? Ah, here?
T: Yes the lights. [That is what] those [yellow] lines radiating from the lamps [are showing].
F: Yes. Yes, the lamps.
T: It's the lights. I think it happened at night.
F: At night.
T: Yes. [I wanted to] show that it was dark. As you can see, I am using black down here [at the lower edge]...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... and again up there. That means that it is night.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, it was dark when this affair of the martyrs of the mining company of Katanga -- at that time it was the [Union] Minière du Haut Katanga now it is the Gécamines -- happened. Yes.
F: What are those [pointing]?
T: Those are explosive charges they put there, dynamite.
F: Dynamite?
T: Yes. And the soldiers of the colonial army were on the other side.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Those soldiers. They began to fire and killed many, many people.
F: And who is this one here [pointing]?
T: That one was hit by a bullet and fell on the ground. And there is a woman who fell down; there were many who died with their whole family
F: Is that true?
T: Father, mother, the their whole family. Rumor has it that they called the people together [announcing] that a movie was to be shown. They should watch a move on the sports field.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But yesterday's69 paper says that this is not true. They called them together for a meeting with the governor on the sportsfield to reach a settlement.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But, to be honest about this, I think [the announcement was about] a movie.
F: What is the meaning of the birds [in the sky]?
T: The birds [show that] it is evening, they are popo.
F: Popo?
T: Bats.
F: Bats.
T: Yes. And there's this bird with a tail that comes out at night.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: It has a long tail.
F: I see.
T: But I don't really know its name.
F: Yes, yes.
T: Right, it's those two kinds [of bird] that fly by in the evening. Mm-hmm.
F: And then there is the flag of the state. [pointing]
T: That flag was used all the time.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: [That is how it used to be] whenever there were ceremonies or a feast. There would be both flags, the Belgian flag and that of the Congo Independent State.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And this is the smokestack of the mining company...
F: The smokestack in Lubumbashi. And [the people] were wearing ...
T: ... in Lubumbashi.
F: ... these shirts?
T: Oh, at that time people were wearing shoes and everything. They already [knew how to] dress.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: But among the people who had asked for higher pay there were some that were poor.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They walked around in torn clothes. You understand? So they said: "No, we should get a raise so that we have enough to dress and eat."
F: Only this one seems to...
T: Yes.
F: ... to dressed well. Mm-mm.
29. bon/ baItaliens/ [Painting 29: The Colonial Army Victorious].
T: baItaliens:
F: baItaliens/ kama: ni vingt huit/
T: mm/
F: ya attaque tulijua: ...?... militaires: baItaliens banavwalaka sawa nani: ma:
T: balikuwa mamilitaires tu/
F: mamilitaires/
T: eeh/ bashi najua: balikuwa bamilitaires: déjà pale bamilitaires yetu walikuwa ku mikulu bule/
F: mm/
T: na mabandes: banabaweka apa/
F: oui/
T: [chuckles] eeeh: kunaisha/ [claps] tandis que bo: balitoka mwabo: balikuwa na ile bintu yote:
F: Kamakanda alikuwa na:
T: na ...?... gani?
F: na: kabila gani?
T: apana: kabila mi sifahamu/ alikuwa Congolais/
F: Congolais?
T: mm/
F: ile: ile histoire ulipata wapi?
T: histoire?
F: ile: adisi ya: Kamakanda/
T: nalipata ku bakubwa: bababa: bote banajua muzuri sana/ ...?...
F: c'est vrai?
T: eh na ...?... alikufa/ na ni mingi kwa bale balipoteaka: ni mingi/ mais naliona kama: nikisema nitumike yote: itakuwa nguvu pa kuweza kununua yote tena/
F: [aside] non/ minataka tu mahistoires yote/ 		29. Alright, the Italians [Painting 29: The Colonial Army Victorious].
T: The Italians.
F: The Italians. This must be [number] twenty-eight.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: About the attack, we knew ...?... [it was] military. The Italians are dressed like ...
T: They were just military.
F: Military70.
T: Yes, I know they were military. At the time our soldiers walked barefoot.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: They wore gaiters, like these here [pointing].
F: Yes.
T: [chuckles] Yes, but that was it. [claps] Whereas [the Italians] had come from their country with all that gear.
F: Kamakanda belonged to ...
T: To...?...what?
F: ... to what tribe?
T: No, I don't know the tribe, he was Congolese.
F: Congolese?
T: Mm-hmm.
F: Where did you get this story from?
T: The story?
F: This tale of Kamakanda.
T: I got it from the old people, they know it very well...?...
F: Is that so?
T: Yes, and ...?... he died, but so did many of those [soldiers], many of them. But the way I see it, were I to do paintings them all, it would be difficult to sell them.
F: [aside] No, I'd like to have all the stories.
30. [rummaging, pick up Painting 30: The Tetela Revolt] bon vingt huit tulimaliza: vingt neuf: baTete[sic]/
T: baTetela/
F: bon/ baTetela: minaona: sawa haba: ngambo ni basoldats/
T: ngambo ni basoldats: ngambo ni baguerriers/ vilevile ku bagerriers kuko paka basoldats tu/ naba?tosha:
F: mais balitosha nguo?
T: ah: tunatosha nguo juu ya kuonyesha kama: haba ni bangambo fulani: aba ni bangambo fulani/ sawa bale basoldats ni kishilani: sawa vile aba baona sawa bantu: mu armée: banaanza kubateswa: na kufanya byote: na lufu ya ule m: Kamakanda: ah: baliona asema non: comme ça ni kutumika bule/ njo balitombokaka/ après révolte yabo unaona beko balikuwa na maflêches:
F: mm/
T: bengine na malances: nazania: na malances:
F: ...?...
T: na malances/ nabo balikuwa na mabunduki: balipika naye:
F: na banachomesha ma ...?... nyumba:
T: banachoma na manyumba: camp/ banachoma camp/ ni camp ya: mu Lodja: ilikuwa mu Lodja puisque baTetela ni bantu ya Lodja: na vile bale balikimbia: kubaua vile balibauaka mingi/ baTetela/ 		30. [rummaging, pick up Painting 30: The Tetela Revolt] Alright, we finished [number] twenty-eight, [now to number] twenty-nine, the Tetela.
T: The Tetela.
F: Alright, the Tetela. I see that there are soldiers on one side.
T: On one side there are soldiers and there are warriors on the other. Among the warriors, too, there were just soldiers. They made them take off...
F: ...take off the uniforms?
T: Yes, I removed the uniforms to show on which side they were. On the side of the soldiers, there were the ones who were responsible for all the suffering and for the death of Kamakanda. Those who took the other side had come to realize that being in the army was useless71. So they exploded. After that, the ones who were in the uprising fought with arrows.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Others, I think, used spears.
F: ...?...
T: Spears. Whereas the loyal troops had guns to shoot with.
F: And they burned down ...?... the houses.
T: They set fire to the houses of the [military] camp. They burned the camp. It was the camp at Lodja. Lodja, because the Tetela were the people of Lodja. Thus they [the soldiers?] fled and the Tetela killed many.
31.
F: mm/ na vingt neuf: Prince Charles/ [Painting 31: Prince Charles visits the Congo]
T: Prince Charles:
F: Prince Charles:
T: inaonyesha:
F: ile: ile: [pointing]
T: eeeh/
F: oui oui/
T: Prince ...?...
F: sasa: balifika Ndjili? Léopoldvile: c'est ça?
T: Ndjili: Léopoldville/ changaliki na nyumba moya ya mayani ya kiwanza eh?
F: mm/
T: mm/
F: ile sac ulifanya?
T: bon/ ile banafahamu: inakalaka ku aérogare: ou bien aérodrome/
F: oui oui/
T: eeh/ juu ya pepo:
F: pepo/
T: eeh/
F: inaonyesha:
T: eeh/
F: ngambo inakuya/
T: c'est ça/
F: sasa: Prince Charles: anafika na nani: na:
T: alifika:
F: na huyu [points]:
T: gor de car: eh [claps]: pardon:
F: aah/
T: [whispering embarrassed] ah mi shi...?...qu'est qu'il y a? eeeh: garde corps/
F: garde corps oui/
T: [chuckles] eh eh: olàlà/
F: garde corps: na ule ule ungine?
T: ule ni: ni baministres/
F: baministres?
T: eeh/
F: mm/ ile [chuckles, points] na ule? huyu?
T: huyu: ni ba: mais ni: délégation/
F: délégation/
T: eeh/
F: na ndevu hivi:
T: na ndevu yake:
F: na chapeau:
T: na chapeau:
F: aah/
T: mm/
F: [aside] Sabena/ bantu bana: banafurahi: ao kintu gani?
T: bantu banafurahi: kufika kwake: unaona bengine banaimba ngoma mule ndani: kama unaona muzuri:
F: oui oui/
T: mm/
F: banapiga ngoma/
T: ngoma:
F: mm/
T: ingine banapiga ngoma: anafurahi:
F: mm/
T: ...?... shikia paka ile abari balibaelezea kama: yapashwa mutoshe batoto yenu macho: ba kuzaliwa mu quarante sep
T:
F: oui oui/
T: mm/ nabo balisikitika/ 		31.
F: Mm-hmm. [Number] twenty-nine, Prince Charles [Painting 31: Prince Charles visits the Congo].
T: Prince Charles.
F: Prince Charles.
T: It shows...
F: This, this.... [pointing]
T: Yes.
F: Yes, yes
T: Prince ...?...
F: Now, did they arrive at Ndjili [airport], in Leopoldville, is that it?
T: [At] Ndjili, Leopoldville. At that time, the airport had only one building with a thatched roof, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: And this bag that you painted there?
T: Alright, that is what they have at airports...
F: Yes, yes.
T: ... to indicate the wind.
F: The wind.
T: Yes.
F: It shows....
T: Yes.
F: ... the direction from which it comes.
T: That's it.
F: Now, Prince Charles arrived with a -- how do you call them?
T: I arrived.
F: Together with this person [points]
T: Gor de car. Wait [claps], excuse me...
F: Aah.
T: [whispering embarrassed] ... aah, I don't ...?... what is this now? Now I have it: garde [du] corps [body guard].
F: A body guard, yes.
T: [chuckles] Yes indeed, oh well72 ...
F: A body guard. And this other one?
T: That one is [one of the] ministers.
F: Ministers?
T: Yes.
F: Mm-hmm. That [chuckles, points], and this one? That one?
T: That one? He belongs to the delegation.
F: The delegation.
T: Yes.
F: With a beard like that.
T: With his beard.
F: And a hat.
T: And hat.
F: Well.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: [aside] Sabena. And the people are full of joy, or what is this?
T: They are cheering his arrival. If you look carefully, you see some of them beating drums there inside [the enclosure].
F: Yes, yes.
T: Mm-hmm.
F: They are beating drums.
T: Drums.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Some beat the drum to show their joy.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ...?... [But, at the same time, they are talking among each other:] "Listen to the news, what was said about your children, those who were born in '47, having their eyes cut out.
F: Yes, yes.
T: Mm-hmm. And they were saddened.
32.
F: tena: [Painting 32: King Baudouin Visits the Congo]
T: Baudouin:
F: Baudouin: kama ni: trente et un: Rabodin/ Rabodin anafika:
T: mu kiwanza/
F: mu kiwanza/
T: mu Congo/
F: hapa ni?
T: Pétillon:
F: Pétillon:
T: garde corps:
F: garde corps: na bale bazungu mbili banafwata?
T: na bale bazungu mbili banafwatana: ni bakubwa: sawa bagouverneurs:
F: mm/
T: par example: mm/
F: mm/
T: ile ni avion: bale bamilitaires beko kule chini: banamulamukia: nayee anabalamukia ...?...: pale fasi banapita pale peushi ni fasi moya inaikalaka: mabetons juu ya maji:
F: eeh/
T: kupita mule chini: eeh/ ah: ndeke iko sawa kimumbingu: kulikuwa ndeke mingi:
F:[laughs] 		32.
F: Further [Painting 32: King Baudouin Visits the Congo].
T: Baudouin.
F: Baudouin, this must be [number] thirty-one: Rabodin. Rabodin arrives.
T: At the airport.
F: At the airport.
T: In the Congo.
F: And who is this here?
T: [That is] Pétillon.
F: Pétillon.
T: And a body guard.
F: A body guard. And the two whites behind them?
T: The two white behind them are some bigshots, like governors...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: ... for instance. Mm-hmm.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: And there, under the airplane, soldiers are lined are up to greet him. [The King] salutes them ...?.... That dark strip they are walking over is concrete [put down] because of the water....
F: I see.
T: ... that runs there on the ground, yes. Ah, [and there are] birds as part of the sky. There were many birds.
F: [laughs
33. sasa ya mwisho: [Painting 33: King Baudouin Giving a Speech]
T: ya mwisho:
F: trente et un:
T: le roi: discours yake:
F: oui/
T: anaadresser ku: ku bazungu:
F: na mamicrophones:
T: na mamicro/ na alibaelezea vile alibaelezea nabo baliweza kuona kama ni mubaya vile ni mubaya vile alibaelezeaka/ asema pourquoi anasema ni mubaya: nawo walisikitika mingi sana/ nayee alisikitika mingi: alitumaka Pétillon/ abakupende kumushikia ata/
F: mm/
T: balimupika ata tomates/
F: tomates?
T: eeh/ kumupiga kumufukuza na mayayi/
F: ni fasi gani ali: alisema: ni Lubumbashi?
T: non ni Kinshasa alisemaka eh/
F: ...?...
T: Lubumbashi: njo walikuwaka kumupikia Pétillon/ asema pourquoi anasema vile?
F: aah/
T: mm/ na kiisha yake: alichanger idée: asema non: sawa munakatala: mitasigner: Indépendance yabo/ et puis:
F: mais sawa sasa: ts: unaona bazungu bengine/ hapana ba: hapana bote: mais bengine: sijue banacheza na bantu: banakulya na bantu: banasumbulia na bantu: banaoana:
T: ah mimi niko nakunywa pamoya:
F: ah/
T: na mweye/ he [chuckles]/
F: banaoana: banaoa hata bibi: ao bibi anaona: anaoa bwana: muzungu: yote tuliona/ mais: ao bibi bazungu banaoa: bana: ba: banabaoa kwa: bwana/
T: batu mweusi: na bazungu wanaoana nabo kwa wazungu/
F: c'est ça/ alors: sasa unaona namna gani? sawa vile: zamani ilikuwa: ts: sawa pour: empêcher: si ze: si njo uliandika pour empêcher l'Indépendance?
T: Indépendance eh/
F: empêcher/
T: eheh/ mais oui/ kama balifanyaka vile eh? kama bali: ilikuya mbele hivi banafanya sasa/
F: eeh/
T: oo: kama: [claps] sisi hatukuwe na mawazo ya kusema kama [claps] Indépendance ni nini/
F: mm/
T: sawa vile kama balitupa voitures/
F: oui/
T: par example: voitures/
F: oui/
T: niko natembea ndani ya voiture: bananielezea asema bon: toka mu cité: kuya kala ku nyumba eko uku karibu:
F: oui/
T: voisin: utakuwa voisin/ d'accord/ mi: ...?... kusema oui: d'accord/ bon/ weye: hapana kuwaza: wee utaoa dada yangu fulani: muloko yangu/ miye: asema [low voice, speaking himself] eh: ah oui ça va ça va/ uko/ kumbe njo hivi? c'est bien/
F: oui/
T: kama akukuye Indépendance:
F: oui/
T: aah/
F: oui/
T: kama shee bote tulipenda/
F: oui/
T: mais kwa sasa ii inatokea unaniuliza kama: ii: unaona namna gani sasa/ oui/ inafwata sasa: franga/ au point de vue: minaona: masituations ya mapays eh?
F: mm/
T: oui/ munakuya: munakuya makaoo15: tous: tout court/ sawa mu Afrique: ou bien mu Europe: ou bien mu Asie/ inakosa ni franga/ uko na franga: utaweza kupenda: rangi yote anakupenda/
F: mm/ 		33. Now the last one [Painting 33: King Baudouin Giving a Speech].
T: The last one.
F: [Number] thirty-one.
T: The King, [giving] his speech.
F: Yes.
T: He spoke to the whites.
F: Through microphones.
T: Through microphones. He talked to them and what he told them -- they took it badly. "Why does he say [things that are] bad? And they were really unhappy. He, too, was quite unhappy. He sent Pétillon [but] they did even want to listen to him73.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: The pelted him with tomatoes.
F: Tomatoes?
T: Yes. To chase him away they pelted him with eggs.
F: What was the place where [the King] spoke, Lubumbashi?
T: No, he spoke in Kinshasa.
F: ...?...
T: It was in Lubumbashi where they pelted Pétillon, saying "Why does he talk that way?"
F: I see.
T: Mm-hmm. Then [the King] changed his mind: "No, since you keep refusing, I am going to sign their independence. And then...
F: But nowadays one can see some whites -- not all, but some of them -- who dance with the people, eat with the people, and talk with the people. They see...
T: Ah, I myself drink with ...
F: You see.
T: ... with you. [chuckles]
F: The way they look at it, they get married to an African woman, or an African women takes a white husband. We saw all this. Indeed, white women get married to and African husband.
T: Black people and white intermarry.
F: That's it. So how do you look at this? Because at first past -- didn't you write this [on the painting] -- [King Boudouin's appeal] was to prevent independence?
T: [To prevent] independence, yes.
F: To prevent [it].
T: Yes, of course. Because, had they done this74 then, they would already have practiced what they do now.
F: I see.
T: Oh, [claps] as if we didn't have an idea what independence means.
F: Mm-hmm.
T: As if it consisted of giving us cars.
F: Yes.
T: Cars, to name an example.
F: Yes.
T: If I was riding in a car they would tell me: "Get out of the township, go and stay in a house were you are near [the center of town].
F: Yes.
T: [For instance,] you would have a neighbor. "Fine," you would say. Alright, but don't think of marrying one of my sisters, my younger sister." Personally, I [in a low voice, speaking himself] would have said: "Why not, if this is [what you want], then it is alright."
F: Yes.
T: [This would not have happened] if it wasn't for independence75.
F: Yes.
T: You see.
F: Yes.
T: We all would have liked this.
F: Yes.
T: But, if you ask me how it is nowadays -- you see how it is now -- what counts now, is money. That is how I see the situation everywhere in the this country, right?
F: Mm-hmm.
T: Yes, in one word, you are out and down. Whether in Africa, even in Europe, or in Asia, the one thing that is lacking is money. If you have money you can like any color you want.
F: Mm-hmm.
34. bon: njo: kipande:
T: ya mambo ya leo/
F: kinaisha?
T: kinaisha eeh/
F: merci/
T: merci mingi eh/
F: ...?... sana: na sasa/ [pick up note] ah madame alikuwa tena na ma: ma: kale ka papier/ [looking at it] ah ile uliandika sawa:
T: oh ile apana/ sababu:
F: mm/
T: nitaandika bien: ile nazani:
F: oui oui oui ...?...
T: milifanya tu: kwangu ku:
F: mais iko: qu'est ce que c'est? [reading from note] Mbuyi Tuzadis?
T: o làlàlà/ ile ni ya muloko yangu/
F: aah/
T: ni adresse ya muloko yangu/
F: ah bon/ [chuckles]
T: nalisahabu ao gani?
F: Luzadis?
T: Luzadis eeh/ Luzadí: ni Luzádi/ mais sasa yee anakamata s: anaweka/
F: aah/
T: eeh na kufanya sawa vile: [chuckles] sawa vile: sawa vile Mobutu alisemaka kulikuwa baLukusa: banaanza kusema: Cozár/
F: eeh/
T: na au lieu ya kuita asema mi niko Lukusa: yee asema oooh: je deviens: Cozár/
F: Cozár? [laughs]
T: vile ilikuwa mubaya/ [laughs]
F: bon/
T: bon merci: [recording ends] 		34. Alright, this is one chapter.
T: Of the things [we talked about] today.
F: Is it finished?
T: It's finished, yes.
F: Thanks.
T: Thank you very much, yes.
F: [Thank you] very much. Now [pick up a note], ah, Madame still has this little paper [looking at it] that you wrote to...
T: Oh, this is nothing. Because...
F: Mm-hmm.
T: I'll write a better copy. I think, this one...
F: Yes, yes, yes ...?...
T: I wrote it just for myself.
F: But what is this [reading from note], "Mbuyi Tuzadis?"
T: Oh well, that is my younger brother.
F: I see.
T: It's the address of my younger brother.
F: Fine [chuckles].
T: I must have forgotten, or whatever.
F: Luzadis?
T: Luzadis, yes. Luzadi, it was Luzadi. But now he took [this other form of the name] and put it down.
F: I see.
T: Yes, doing this is like [chuckles] Mobutu said. [For instance] some one was called Lukusa. [Now] they begin to say "Cozar."
F: Cozar? [laughs]
T: That is how bad it got. [laughs]
F: Fine.
T: Fine, thanks. [recording ends]
1East Coast Swahili mguu.
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2This could be read as French couteau, "knife", but the context requires a term for scepter.
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3Now I catch the right pronunciation.
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4Lenselaer (1983:337) has -nyoloka as a "Kingwana" form of East coast Swahili -nyoka, "become straight (extended, laid out in a straight line)" (Johnson 1939:346).
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5Pronounced in three syllables (kunya).
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6Here and elsewhere in this conversation I use nani, "who?" instead of nini "what?". Perhaps this consistent mistake (which does not cause any problem for T.) was encouraged by the frequent occurrence of a sort of generalized nani in T.'s speech as a non-specific interrogatory interjection.
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7Side remark to Ilona Szombati (who was present during this session) probably telling her not to mark on (the back of) the paintings.
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8I transcribed the verb form as I heared it. Most likely it is a contraction of (h)ai[na], "it is not", and s(h)imuaccuser, "I don't accuse him.
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9Remarkable concord of noun and noun prefix; in this case, -tu signifies third person plural, small beings.
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10Van Avermaet & Mbuya 1954:568: "lusàmbo ... fil métallique, fil d'archal (laiton);" "mukùba ... cuivre rouge" (ibid. 296).
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11Really a mind-boggling turning around of interpretations. Starting point is what appears to me as a myth: Simba Bulaya. I try to make an association with ethnography by invoking lion- and leopard societies described during colonial times. T. turns this around and puts it into the world of fantasy -- Tintin comics -- and insists on the reality of people who change into animals. Is that only expressive of his naive point of view of the 'believer'? Condsider that he later analyses what I see as myth as a 'system' of the whites...
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12Van Avermaet & Mbuya 1954:220: "-kalaba: ... marcher sur les amins et les pieds....(comme les enfants qui ne marchent pas encore)."
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13This form could count as a double hyper-correction: s instead of sh, and g instead of ng.
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14I repeat what I heard. T. probably said iko popo.
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15Probably from k.o.
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 1T. was concerned because the recorder was on while we were still trying to arrange the paintings.
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2Literally: "He wore his thoughts;" but notice the use of idée later on.
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3It is for Tintin experts to determine whether these elliptic remarks correspond to the plot of Hergé's Le sceptre d'Otokar.
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4Here I am able to add the translation of this term because I recognize the referent in the picture. Van Avermaet and Mbuya have "um-bèla (im):... petit coquillage (cauris)"(1954:59).
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5Lit. "in the times of the whites." The chain and medal belonged to the regalia of a chef médaillé, a chief recognized (or appointed) by the colonial administration.
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6The /à/ in my transcription indicates that I heard a tone; my repetition of the term shows that I did not catch the phoneme ng. Both indicate that T. pronounced the term as a Luba word. Lenselaer has minyanga, ECS kayamba, "hochet de danse," dance rattle (1983:303), see also Van Avermaet and Mbuya "mu-nàngà (mi)" (1954:440). The reference to raphia in the following is confusing if read as an elaboration on minyanga. As the picture shows, it must be a different item. The confusion may due to homonymy. Van Avermaet and Mbuya who also have the following entries: "ki-nyanga... série de ceintures de perles" (1954: 44O) -- in the picture, the chief wears bands of beads on his upper arms -- and "nyanga: liane à fibre très solide" (ibid.) which could refer to (raffia) fiber.
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7An embarrassing misunderstanding which T. did not bother to correct. Politely he gave me a way out by pointing to a tiny piece of leopard skin that is showing on the chiefs left side.
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8I repeat the Swahili term on more time to memorize it.
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9T. refuses to follow the line of questioning I propose. The personage is too important; details can wait.
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10T. here understands my inquiry about a detail in the picture (Banza Kongo's hat or head dress) as question regarding the historical authenticity of his painting. In the course of this brief exchange he mentions three sources: history books, his own thoughts or imagination, and stories from the Bible. The allusion to Roboam (Jeroboam) is to his revolt against Solomon. Roboam meets a prophet who tears up his new coat into twelve pieces. He gives ten of them to Jeroboam prophesying that God will take away Solomon's kingdom and give ten tribes to Jeroboam (3 Kings 11, 29-31). Is this T.'s way of pointing to the political significance of Banza Kongo's clothes?
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11Lit. "it was made to pass."
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12Here and in other cases (see above and below) I repeat an unfamiliar term in order to memorize it. These conversations were also language lessons.
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13A reference to the chief depicted in Painting 21.
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14A cryptic remark. Possibly "Lumpungu" is here a generic reference to chiefs killed by the whites. Banza Kongo was the first one.
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15Much of the back-and-forth in the exchange that follows is caused by a lexical-semantic problem. For me, bahari had the narrow meaning of "sea," or "ocean." For T. it signified any extended body of water. He may well have imagined the scene near a stretch of the Congo where the river widens to what in colonial times was called the [Stanley] Pool.
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16My question shows that I had not immediately recognized jito as an amplifying form of ECS mto which in Katanga Swahili always occurs as mutoni (no longer interpreted as a locative).
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17Lit. "may this thing stop, stand still."note text
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18The picture shows a cart with wheels to which I point, asking for the Swahili term. T. responds with an alternate form of peto, ECS upeto, also peto, "bundle," the translation I used up to this point because it seemed to make sense. Now his insisting on mupeto suggests a Katanga Swahili term (I am unable to verify in available vocabularies) derived from the verb -peta, "to bend round", hence "wheel."
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19A mistake; the number on the painting was seven.
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20The exchange that follows is (another) example of the vagaries of questioning an "informant" from a position of uncertainty. What happens is, however, quite interesting. T. uses a French loanword for "porter;" I try to remember the Swahili word, which is (m)pagazi. When I give him an approximate clue in the form of ngazi, he comes up with a term that sounds similar to pagazi, except that his wapangaji is derived from a different stem. Mpagazi comes from -pagaa, "to carry," whereas mpangaji, as the subsequent statements show, must come from -pang(i)a, "to hire [or rent, see below]," hence meaning "hireling, paid worker," in contrast to slave. All this may either be a case (not so infrequent) of humoring the ethnographer or the term pagazi, with the connotations it had from the times of Arab-Swahili trade, was replaced by the French loan porteur. It would also be unlikely that speakers of Katanga Swahili derive mpagazi from -pagaa whose local form is -pakala which, it seems, started out with the more restricted, specific meaning of -pagaa, "carry charms," then extended to mean "to prepare a charm, medicine" or simply "to prepare and apply something [paint, for instance]." note text
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21My count continues to be off be one number.
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22In the original this sentence (like the inscription on the painting) is in French, one of the examples where T. switches to another language for more than a word or short phrase.
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23The reference is to Ilona Szombati-Fabian who was participating the research and had plans to visit T.'s family in Likasi.
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24In the original, T. has the interjection nani? -- what is his name? -- which he uses throughout our conversations as an almost obligatory element when he recalls a name. I shall omit it from the translation unless there is an emphasis on it as in the sentence that follows.
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25This is probably an accommodating answer. Père, not Frère, Etienne was one of the few missionaries in Likasi I knew of in connection with my research on the Jamaa movement.
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26Throughout, "rummaging" or "rummage" indicates noise recorded when we were searching for or manipulating paintings.
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27I have been unable to identify the term mamande, unless it is a plural (ma-) of the French word, amende, a fine or payment. In that case the subject ("They....) would be Livingstone who distributed pieces of cloth.
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28Transcription shows that I do not catch the word. T. senses this as the following shows.
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29Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 43:"di-bàla...Aussi: calvitie au sommet de la tête, tête chauve."
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30This is another example where I learn the meaning of a term in the course of our exchange.
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31The preceding exchange was prompted by my trying to find out whether T. thought of Arabes as a religious rather than ethnic or political designation. It seems that Islam, shared by Arab-Swahilis, Saudis, and Senegalese was not foremost on his mind. That they "were just traveling" is part of the image of Senegalese, a common term for West Africans, most of whom are ambulant traders.
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32In this translation I assume that banapatana corresponds to ECS -patikana. This is also an instance where I opt for a possiblity different from the one I chose in Remembering the Present.
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33Here an example of conversation on two tracks. T. finishes his enumeration while I am asking about Rumaliza.
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34Literally, the original uniongozee means something like: give me a little more. T. needed a moment to look at something in the picture.
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35See -sàla, "feather", in Van Avermaet and Mbuya (1954:563) and nduba, "toucan" (ibid. 427).
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36I noticed at first only the length of his hair.
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37A tentative translation (based on what the picture show) of a mangled phrase in the originalnote text
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38We were having a drink during our conversation.
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39I have been unable to identify the term mukomboo used in the original. See Painting 77 which shows Kalonji as he is described here.
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40I was responding to T.'s theatrical performance of this scene.
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41As far as I can recall, the reference is to numbering of illustrations in the book about the history of Rwanda (see below).
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42Mwana Shaba is the paper for the African personnel of the Gécamines mining company.
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43T.'s question is due to an embarrassing lapse into pidgin on my side (I used the third person: "He read").
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44In our conversation, I used twice ndani (inside) instead of chini (down, on the ground).
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45Points out that he is spreading his arms.
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46He probably refers to the dirt road that cuts through the lower part of the picture.
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47By now my count is off by two. The comments that follow are about a remark I must have made during the break while turning the tape: There are really two pictures in this painting.
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48T. wanted to talk about the gallows but I changed the subject to the inscription on the administrative building in the picture.
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49My reaction is to his choice of terms which at time already had a distinctly colonial flavor.
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50Because of the locative mu (inside) in this phrase, it could be translated as "she was pregnant with me." But the context indicates that T. means "she was carrying me in a wrap on her belly."
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51"-tumbula:... tuer des bêtes....; mu-tumbula: boucher...; on applique aussi le nom aux Blancs qu'on accuse parfois de tuer des enfants..." (Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 751). See also "tumbila (appl.): le sens de cet appl. est particulier:...être cause de mort; mulopwe wantumbila: le chef est la cause de ma mort (dira p. ex. un homme dont le fils est envoyé par le chef au loin comme travailleur dans une entreprise d'Européen)..." (ibid. 750).
Johnson (1939), Lenselaer (1983), and Sacleux (1939) have the Swahili verb -tumbua, "disembowel", but not the noun. Therefore, batumbula must have come to Katanga/Shaba Swahili through Luba.
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52This is my gloss for one of the maeanings of kiswahili, usually with a possessive such as yake, "his" or yabo, "their": "a way of speaking", but also "what he/they usually or typically say".
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53Here the original has di, from French dis, say, a common term of address in Katanga/Shaba Swahili appropriate to relations of equality or friendship (including also "joking relationships"). Letters to friends often begin with di wangu, my friend.
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54That is what I remembered being told during a trip to the region.
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55Mamba, the term T. uses, can also mean "snake." In Katanga/Shaba Swahili it usually refers to crocodile.
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56We are now back to the correct count.
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57A possible translation: "the little [engine] from Lamba country," which is where Sakania is located.
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58Lit. how they used to fight there, it was [during the] war. The reference is to Painting 75.
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59The original has the French malgré preceding "events." This was either a simple mistake or, more likely, an interpretation of the term as "because unfortunately..."note text
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60Lit. Father kabeya, a term that could be derived from ECS -beja, "fail to act properly." In that case, T. may have referred to the figure's posture. The missionary is leaning back in his chair, smokes a pipe, and has his legs crossed.
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61I had first taken the white cloth the judge wears under his robe for clerical bands.
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62This is my best guess at translation of this elliptic sentence. But the two phrases with anaikalaka could also be linked to the preceding tufanye hivi (as a statement on the situation of the black man).
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63Probably the Luba term ishi, vermin (see Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:203-4).
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64Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 674: "n-ntànda bumbidi, ou n-tànta kumbidi ... araignée (d'espèce particulière)."
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65A local form of roi Baudouin I had frequently heard.
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66Inexplicable interjection: probably linked to a gesture such as preventing T. from folding the canvas as he was handling the picture.
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67The term temps used by T. is ambiguous: time or weather? Or both?
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68T. uses the French term jaune though the monument is brownish. An example of problems arising from different classifications of color terms in French and Swahili.
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69Kesho, the term used by T., means "tomorrow." But in Shaba/Katanga Swahili its more encompassing meaning must be something like "the day adjacent to today." I have observed this use of kesho on other occasions.
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70This exchange was caused by the camouflage dresses the Italians are shown wearing, indicating, I thought, a special unit within the military.
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71Again, this is my reconstruction of the sense of this difficult passage, not a literal translation.
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72The interjection olàlà in the original is not clear; it may have been addressed to something extraneous to our conversation.
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73In the comments that follow T. anticipates Painting 35 that belongs to the batch of pictures we took up in the following recording session.
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74T. refers to the King's recommendation to eat, drink, and dance together with the people.note text
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75T. speaks of the changes independence brought about with regard to inter-ethnic marriage.
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References

Lenselaer, Alphonse. (1983). Dictionnaire swahili-français. Paris: Editions Karthala.

Sacleux, Ch. (1939). Dictionnaire Swahili-Français. Paris: Institut d'Ethnologie.

A Standard Swahili dictionary. (1939). Under the direction of Frederick Johnson. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Van Avermaet, E. and B. Mbuya. (1954). Dictionnaire kiluba - français. Tervuren: Musée Royale de l'Afrique Centrale.

[Introduction]

[First Session, Part 1]

[Second Session, Part 1]

[Second Session, Part 2]

[Third Session, Part 1]

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© Transcript & Translation by Johannes Fabian
Archived: 12 May 1999
Revisions: 18 May 1999 (layout), 24 August 2001 (lay-out of toc changed, APS Volume number added), 31 October 2001 (ISSN added)