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TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE First Session of October 6, 1974 |
TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE First Session of October 6, 1974 |
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1. F: mm/ mm/ kama uko tayari: tunaweza kwanza na: na: T: na adisi/ F: na adisi/ sawa vile unasema: ...?...adisi: T: bon: sawa vile niko tayari: bon: F: arisi njo: T: njo adisi [laughs]/ bon/ nazania nita: nitaanza juu ya ku: c'est à dire niko na: nitacommenter c'est à dire eh? F: mm/ T: bon/ nitakuanzia kama si adisi directement: naanza kuelezea vile mambo: ilikuwa zamani/ |
1. F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, if you are ready we begin with... T: ...with the story. F: With the story. As you said ...?... the story... T: ...alright, since I am ready: F: The story is this. T: This is the story [laughs]. Alright, I guess I'll begin [to talk] about -- that is to say I'll comment [on the paintings], right? F: Yes. T: Alright, although I am not going to give you a story right away I'll begin by explaining how things used to be in the past. |
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2. mutu mweusi: alikuwa tangu Adam na Eva/ F: mm/ T: bila kufwata adisi ya: ya dini: sawa vile katolika: protestant ou bien baKimbangu: ilikuwa vile Zaire yetu: ilikuwa tangu zamani/ na wankambo yetu/ ni sawa vile unabaona pale: bale bankambo yetu [Painting 1: Landscape]/ nao: walijua: kuvwala/ walikuwa na maliba/ sawa vile unaona hapa: pa tableau [Painting 2: Ancestral Couple]/ walijua kutumika/ ni bale beko natumika pa maji kutosha samaki: njo vile kwa Katanga: banaanza kufanya mukuba ile wakati: kutosha mukuba: kufanya nsambo1: kwenda kuuzisha: walijua kula: kumanger/ F: mm/ T: aah/ banaanza ku: balikuwa na muhoko: balikuwa napika bukari: ilikuwa chakula yetu/ balijua kujenga/ sawa vile unaona banayenga pale nyumba: F: mm/ T: ilikuwa banajenga kwa majani juu: wala chini bataweza kuyenga majani: wala wataweza kuweka miti: banafunga muzuri: banaweka budongo: allez: banalala ndani kule/ na kujiongoza/ balijua kujigouverner/ F: mm/ T: c'est à dire balikuwa na gouvernement [Painting 3: Traditional Chief]/ par example Banza Kongo: mm? F: mm/ T: balikuwa na gouvernement muzima/ F: mm/ T: aah/ vile baNongo Lutete: bote balikuwa magouvernements/ mais habakujiunga pamoya ba kufanya unité: balikuya: balifanya fédération/ mm? |
2. T: The black man existed since Adam and Eve. T: Mm-hmm. T: Without following the story of a religion, be it Catholic, Protestant, or Kimbanguist, this is how our Zaire existed since the days of old. And [there were] our ancestors as you see them there [Painting 1: Landscape], our ancestors. They knew how to dress. They had raffia clothes, as you see here on the painting [Painting 2: Ancestral couple]. They knew how to work. Those people by the water are working to catch fish, and in Katanga they began to make copper ingots in those times. They produced copper ingots, made copper wire, and went to sell it. They knew how to eat, to dine.1 F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. They began to2, they had manioc and they cooked bukari3. This was our food. They knew how to build. As you see, there they built houses. F: Mm-hmm. T: The way it was, when they built they used leaves on top and on the ground. Or they would take boughs, join them well, put clay on it and there you are, they slept in there. And to lead themselves, they knew how to govern themselves. F: Mm-hmm. T: In other words, they had government [Painting 3: Traditional Chief]. For example, Banza Kongo, mm? F: Mm-hmm. T: They had a complete government. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, people like Ngongo Lutete, all of them were governments. Only, they had not joined forces to create unity. They set up a federation, you understand?. |
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3. bon/ turudie ku adisi: histoire sainte: eh? adisi ya Mungu/ inasema: yakuwa: watu tatu/ les trois mages [Painting 4: The Three Magi]/ mm? balikwendaka kumuabudu: Yesu/ F: mm/ T: mm? katika yao: palikuwa katikati yabo: palikuwa muntu mweusi/ wa mu Afrique/ c'est que muntu mweusi alianza tangu zamani/ nayee vilevile/ histoire sainte inatufundisha tena: yakuwa: baba moja alikuwa na watoto: mbili/ katika watoto wa wale mbili: kulikuwa moja alikosaka/ kwa kusema ingine banasema kule muntu mweusi alitokea/ bale batoto bale balikosaka: et puis: ni baba yake alikunywaka mingi/ F: mm/ T: mais jina mi sijue/ eh? F: mm/ T: ule mutoto pale alikunywa pombe mingi: allez: baba yake pale alikunywa pombe mingi: pardon: F: mm/ T: alikwenda analala mu nyumba: bunji/ bila manguo/ F: aah/ T: bon/ sasa kulikuwa mutoto yake moja: alikuya anafungula mulango/ anaangaria baba yake: oooh baba iko bunji/ anakimbia inje anakwenda kuita nduku yake ungine/ kutoka kuita nduku ungine: anarudia naye/ sema kuya one/ nduku yake anakuya anafungula mulango: anaangaria: baba yake iko bunji/ asema: tiens: pourquoi anafanya vile? F: mm/ T: ule mutoto alikimbia mbio: alikwenda kubeba: nguo/ akuwe kumufunyika baba yake/ hakumufunyika kama alimuangaria: alianza kurudia ku mukongo/ anakwenda namufunyika baba yake/ F: mm/ T: na baba yake alilamuka/ njo vile histoire sainte inasema/ F: mm/ T: baba yake kulamuka: hakukuwa mulevi alifanya kusudi2/ na aliona kama mutoto yake ule ungine: alikuwa na akili pa kuweza kwenda kumufunyika/ na aliita ule mutoto ungine: wa kwanza: alimuelezea/ weye: kwanzia leo: minazania: siwezi nakukatala kuwa mutoto yangu hapana/ F: mm/ T: mais utakuwa mutoto yangu/ mais/ utazala/ batoto yako bote beushi/ na tena: habatakuya hata moja na akili/ F: mm/ T: batakuwa batoto/tupu/ na batabakia bamaskini: mpaka kufa/ njo vile histoire sainte inasema/ alafu kwa kuona mi kwangu miye: sawa vile minakuambia: niko écrivain: F: mm/ T: minaona kama ni bongo/ ni bongo juu ya nini? sababu minazania wakati ya Bwana Yesu: eh? F: mm/ T: muntu mweusi alikuyako: mbele ya ile adisi: les trois Mages/ F: mm/ T: aah/ nazania balikuwa baBalthasar: naaaa: na: Merkio: na ule ungine minazani nasahabu jina eh? F: mm/ T: bon/ ?unaona mutu mweshi alikuyako/ bon/ eeh/ baba président Mobutu: eh? F: mm/ T: alisema: le quatre octrobre dix-neuf cent septante-trois ku l'ONU: ya kama: je cite: eh? le recours à l'authenticité n'est pas un nationalisme étroit/ un retour aveugle au passé/ bon: alisema vile/ kwa mimi nalijiona kama: kuona kwangu: ni kweli kwa sababu adisi ya muntu mweusi mwenyewe minakuelezea eh? F: mm/ T: ilipotea tangu: tangu/ mi minakamata mi tangu: bale ba trois mages/ kwa sababu ule mutu wa: pa bantu mweu: pa: pa bale bantu tatu: alikuwa muntu mweusi/ hakurudiaka/ balimuuaka: alipoteaka/ na leo hakuwezaka hata kurudia/ nazania na adisi ya muntu mweushi paka pale: ilipotea: F: mm/ T: njo pale tulianza kufwata sawa mambo ya kusema: ooh ni ule baba ali: lalaka mu nyumba: ooh: hapana/ ni pa ile wakati adisi ya muntu mweushi ilipotea/ |
3. Alright, let's go back to the story, the sacred scriptures4, right? The story of God. It says there were three people, the three wise men, you understand? They went to adore Jesus [Painting 4: The Three Magi]. F: Mm-hmm. T: Your understand? Among them, in their midst there was a black man, someone from Africa. That means that the black man, too, had his origin in the days of old. The sacred scriptures also teach us that there was a father who had two children. Of those two children, there was one who had sinned. That is, some say this is where the black man came from. It was the [black] child5 who had sinned. So, their father used to drink a lot. F: Mm-hmm. T: But his name I don't know, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: Once, when this child had drunk a lot of beer, sorry, when his father had drunk a lot of beer. F: Mm-hmm. T: He went to sleep in the house, naked, without any clothes. F: I see. T: Alright. Now there was this one child of his who came and opened the door. He looked at his father: "Oh, [he said] father is naked." He ran outside to call his brother. He called his brother and came back with him. He said: "Come and see." His brother came and opened the door. He looked: His father was naked. He said: "I don't understand, why does he act this way?" F: Mm-hmm. T: This child ran away quickly and went to bring some clothes to cover his father. The way he did it was not by looking at him, he returned walking backwards. [This is how] he went to cover his father. F: Mm-hmm. T: And his father woke up. This is how the sacred scriptures report it. F: Mm-hmm. T: His father woke up, he was no longer drunk, he felt dizzy, and he saw that this other child of had had the presence of mind to cover him [without looking]. And he summoned this other child of his, the first-born6 and explained to him: "You, from this day on, I don't think I can deny that you are my child." F: Mm-hmm. T: "No, you are going to remain my child. But all the children you will engender are going to be black. Furthermore, not one of them will be intelligent." F: Mm-hmm. T: "They will be children without value. And they will always be poor until they die." This is how the sacred scriptures put it. But the way I myself see it -- as I told you, I am a writer. F: Mm-hmm. T: In my view this is a lie. Why is it a lie? Because I think that in the time of the Lord Jesus, right?... F: Mm-hmm. T: ...before7 that story of the three wise men, the black man was already there. F: Mm-hmm. T: Ah, I think they were Balthasar8 and, and Melchior, and another one, I guess I forgot the name, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, so the black man was already there. So. Baba9 President Mobutu, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: He said on October 10, 1973, at the United Nations -- may I quote? -- "Recourse to Authenticity is not a narrow nationalism, a blind return to the past." Alright, this is how he spoke. On reflection -- the way I see it -- this is true. Because it is the story of the black man himself which I am explaining to you, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: He was lost long, long ago. I took my departure with those three wise man because this person among those three men was a black man. He did not return. They killed him and he perished. Up to this day, he cannot come back. I believe this is the story of the black man right there, it was lost. F: Mm-hmm. T: It was then that we followed things like [the story of] the man who was asleep in his house, and what not. No, it was at that moment that the story of the black man was lost. |
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4. bon/ ilikuwa vile sawa nikuonyesha tableaux ya kwanza kama tulikuwa na bankambo yetu: balijua kuvwala: F: mm/ T: eeh? balijua kuvwala: balijua kusumbulia: balizi: balijua kuzala: balijua kujigouverner/ angaria ...?... F: ya tatu/ T: ah oui: voilà/ F: ya tatu: T: ahah/ na hapa unaona iko na mugini muzima/ na bantu yake: mia moya/ F: hii ya tatu? T: alikuwa chefu vilevile/ mais: naonyesha kwa mawazo/ na sikutaya jina yake kwa sababu: recours à l'authenticité [chuckles] sawa minakueleza mara ingine eh? F: mm/ T: eh/ tuko naru: tuko: tuko eh: c'est un retour aveugle au passé/ c'est que hatukujua ile tena wankambo: ?tutaisha kupoteza ile akili/ |
4. Alright, things were as I showed you in the first paintings. We had our ancestors who knew how to dress. F: Mm-hmm. T: Right? They knew how to dress, they knew how to converse, they knew how to have children, they knew how to govern themselves. Look at ...?... F: The third one.10 T: Yes, there you are. F: The third one. T: Yes, and here you see a whole village and its people, one hundred of them. F: [And who is] this third one? T: He was also a chief. But I show [him] as I have thought [him] up and I don't give his name because recourse to authenticity -- as I already explained to you [chuckles]11, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: We go [back] -- it is a blind return to the past. The thing is, we don't know the ancestors any more, we have lost that knowledge. |
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5. bon/ nakuwa kufika sasa wakati: adisi ya Congo: inaanza/ F: mm/ mm/ T: alafu ilikuwa Zaire ile wakati nazania [Painting 5: Diogo Cão and the King of Kongo]/ F: tunaona tu/ T: eeh/ ni kusema Zaire yetu ili: ilikuwaka/ na maroyaumes/ c'est que she tulipoteza na kinywa yetu eh? hata kiswahili tuko nasema minazania hakina kinywa ya batu mweusi/ ni kinywa ya baArabu/ F: Swahili? T: Swahili ni kinywa ya waArabu/ inafika hapa: kwa waArabu waliingia: tunaanza: kusumbulia/ sawa Tshiluba: ni kinywa ya baMissionnaires/ F: mm/ T: babeupe/ balileta ile kinywa kule/ F: mm/ T: KiKongo iko kinatoka na ku Portu: nani: ku Portugais eh? ba: ku Portugal: pardon/ F: mm/ T: aah/ minajua akili/ njo balileta ile kinywa: njo tunaanza kusikilizana/ sawa tunakuwa na Français: inakuya nani: kinywa ya: batu bote/ |
5. Right, Now I am getting to the time when the story of the Congo begins. F: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. T: But I believe it was Zaire in those times [Painting 5: Diogo Cão and the King of Kongo]. F: We see: T: Yes, that is to say, our Zaire existed and [it had] kingdoms. Only we lost [the word] in our language, right? Even the Swahili we speak, I believe, is not a language of the black people. It is the language of the Arabs. F: Swahili? T: Swahili is the language of the Arabs. It arrived here through the Arabs who invaded [the country] and we began to talk in it. Like Tshiluba, which is a language of the Missionaries. F: Mm-hmm. T: The white ones. They brought this language there. F: Mm-hmm. T: Kikongo came from the Portuguese, right? Sorry, from Portugal. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, I am aware of this. They brought this language and this is how we began to understand each other. Like we have French which became the language shared by all the people. |
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6. bon/ eh/ ilik: tulikuwa na maroyaumes mingi/ kwa ile: nafahamu: royaume du Congo: par example: royaume baTelela: et baKete: royaume de baLuba: na maroyaumes ingine mingi/ ku jito Zaire: F: utaweza kuita ingine? T: hapana/ minasinda sawa minafahamu ile eh/ na ingine mingi sawa vile minakuelezea/ ku jito Zaire: ilikuwa Nzadi/ njo jina yake: Nzadi/ kulikuwa sultani moja/ jina yake: Banza Kongo/ F: mm/ T: ni ule unaona pale pa tableau/ alimupokea: siku moja: mm? F: mm/ T: explorateur Portugais/ Diego Cao/ na nkundi yake: na watu wake: weusi walitoka nao ku Angola/ wale watu walikuwa wa Malange/ F: Malange? T: Malange/ sasa wale watu: nazania wanapatikana mu Kananga/ mu Luluabourg/ ya zamani/ na wale watu: hawana waKasai ya: bale baKasai bale/ habana baKasai ya: ya Kananga: hapana/ ni ba: Angolais/ bale balitokaka na: Diego Cao/ banaanza kuita baMalange/ et puis pale balifika mu mukini na kuzala mule: sasa banaanza kubaita sasa na sasa tuko nabaita shee: Malandi/ njo banakamata ile mugini banaleta asema kama Malandi/ wa Nshinga/ F: ...?...3 T: maneno jina: Malandi wa Nshinga/ F: mm/ T: bon/ ile: jina Malandi wa Nshinga: inatoka ku: Malange: bale bantu balitoka mu Angola/ njo balikuwa kukala mu ile inchi: na sasa banazalana: balipoteaka kwabo/ ni bale batu balikuwaka na: Diego Cao/ F: na Malandi: Malandi: njo fasi? njo mugini? T: ma: oui: Malandi wa Nshinga: Kananga/ njo mukini/ F: ah: ni jina ya Kananga? T: ah: Kananga/ njo maana yake: Malandi wa Nshinga: Kananga/ F: aah/ T: bon: bale bantu bengine banapatikana mule banayenga ile mukini: ni ba: ni ba: Angolais/ bale balitokaka nabo kuko: baexplorateurs: sawa vile Diego Cao: kufika nabo humu/ F: nsinga njo nini? T: ni téléphone/ kwa sababu ile mugini moya: iningia: téléphone mbele ya wakati/ F: Kananga/ T: sawa ku Mbuji Mayi: ou bien kipande yote Kabinda kule: ah: ku nani: ku Lodja: na ku fasi ya Lusambo hakukuye téléphone/ téléphone iliingia mara ya kwanza: ku Kananga/ F: mm/ T: sasa: bantu baliita kama: Malandi: wa Nshinga/ sawa vile Malandi wa Nshinga: njo kusema ni bale baMalange bale balikuya mule: banazalana: bana: kubaita sasa: ma: baMalandi/ sawa Malandiens tout court/ F: [chuckles] |
6. Alright. Now, we had many kingdoms. Among them I know the kingdom of Kongo, for instance, the Tetela kingdom, that of the Kete, the kingdom of the Luba, and many other kingdoms. On the river Zaire... F: ... can you name other [kingdoms]? T: No, I can't, as I only know these. There were many others, as I explained to you. On the river Zaire -- it used to be Nzadi, that was its name, Nzadi -- there was a chief, his name was Banza Kongo. F: Mm-hmm. T: He is the one you see there on the painting. One day, right? He received him one day, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: He received the Portuguese explorer Diogo Cao and his party, and the black people with whom they had set off from Angola. These people were from Malange. F: Malange? T: Malange. Now, these people, I believe, are now found in Kananga, in Luluabourg, as it used to be called. And these people don't come from the Kasai, they are not Kasaians like those from Kananga. They are Angolans, they came from there with Diogo Cao. People began to call them Malange. And then when they settled there in a village and had children, people gave them a name and now we call them Malandi. This village was given the name Malandi wa Nshinga. F: ...?...12 T: Because the name is Malandi wa Nshinga. F: Mm. T: Alright, so this name Malandi wa Nshinga come from Malange, the people who came from Angola. They came to settle in this country and they had children among each other and forgot their home country. They are the people who were with Diogo Cao. F: Malandi, Malandi, is that a place? Is it a village? T: Yes, Malandi wa Nshinga, Kananga. It's a village. F: Ah, so it is a name for Kananga? T: Yes, for [a part of] Kananga. That is its meaning, Malandi wa Nshinga, Kananga. F: Ah. T: Right, so some people you find there and who built this village are Angolans. They took off from there with explorers like Diogo Cao. Together with them they arrived here. F: What does nsinga mean? T: It is the telephone. Because in this particular village the telephone was introduced before [it came to other places]. F: In Kananga. T: Like in Mbuji Mayi, or in the whole Kabinda region there, or in Lodja, and in Lusambo there was not telephone yet. The telephone was first introduced to Kananga. F: Mm-hmm. T: So people came up with the name Malandi wa Nshinga. Malandi wa Nshinga refers to those Malange who settled there, had children among each other, and now they call them Malandi. Malandians, for short. F: [chuckles] |
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7. T: [chuckles] eeh/ bon/ alimupokelea: Diego Cao: F: njo huyu? T: eh: na batu: na batu yake: sawa balikuwaka nabo: akawaelezea jina ya: ya fleuve: yakuwa ni Nzadi/ F: mm/ T: kwa kuita kwake: Diego Cao: kuita kwa Diego Cao: aliita kama: Zaire/ bon: abakusilikizane asema oui: ni: Nzadi/ nayee alisema kama Zaire/ aliandika mu buku yake kama nalivumbula motoni: Zaire/ kiisha aliwa: fatilia abari ya wa: Arabu/ na masultani wengine: wale walipenda kuuzisha ndugu zao/ kiisha alikala: anaanza kubaelezea mufano gani baArabu beko mu: mu: mu Congo Central: c'est à dire katikati ya Congo/ F: mm/ T: beko nateswa: banduku yabo: ba: na kuua bantu ku migini: na kuuzisha bengine/ na bale batu wanasaidiwa tena paka kuko: banduku yetu/ na hakuna mufano ya kusikilizana hapana/ kama alikuwa mufano ya kusikilizana: kama tunaofahamu/ Diego Cao: alirudia: kwao: na nkundi yake: alirudia kwao/ F: mm/ T: bon/ alikuta déjà pale alikuta kulikuwa civilisation: ya baZairois/ c'est à dire civilisation zairoise/ ilianza kuexister kwa Banza Kongo/ nayee ali: aliétonner: alisangaa/ siku kidogo Diego Cao alirudia: na nkundi yake: iliingia katikati ya Zaire/ Diego Cao alirudia kwao/ ile nkundi alikuwa naye: ni baDhanis: sawa minafahamu ule: na bengine: baliingia ndani ya: Congo/ kusema tuvumbule sasa: inchi yote: tujue mifano ii/ |
7. T: [Chuckles] Well, alright. He received Diogo Cao. F: Is that the one? T: Yes, and the people who were with his party. [Banza Kongo] informed them of the name of the river. [The name] was Nzadi. F: Mm-hmm. T: Diogo Cao himself called it Zaire. They did not understand each other and [when Banza Kongo said it is Nzadi] they said, yes, it is Zaire. [Diogo Cao] pronounced it Zaire. He wrote in his book, "I discovered the river Zaire." Then [Banza Kongo] informed them about the Arabs and about those other chiefs who liked to sell their brothers. He took his time about this and began to explain to them how the Arabs behaved in the interior of the Congo. F: Mm-hmm. T: They made their brothers suffer, killing people in the villages and selling others. And the people who helped them were our brothers. And there was no way to understand each other. Had there been one, we would know of it. Diogo Cao returned home and so did his party. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, so already at that time he found that there was a Zairean civilization. That is to say, the Zairean civilization began to exist with Banza Kongo. And he was astonished; he was amazed. Not much later, Diogo Cao returned and his party penetrated the interior of Zaire. Diogo Cao went back home [to Portugal]. In the party that was with him there was a certain Dhanis, he is one I know of, and others, and they got into the interior of the Congo. "Let us discover the whole country now," they said, "so that we know what it is like." |
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8. F: mm/ alafu: unasema: Banza: T: Kongo/ F: Kongo: na bengine balikuwa na civilisation/ civilisation njo nini? T: civilisation? F: mm/ T: c'est que ni: tuko; ni authenticité/ ni kula kwake: kuwvaa kwake/ kuikala kwake/ na kujenga kwake tuseme/ F: mm/ T: kujenga kwake/ ni vile civilisation/ na kunywa kwake: tu [?tout] ilikuwa: civilisation/ sawa balianza kunywa mu kale ka: ka: kibuyu ka wankambo/ F: mm/ T: ni kake alianza kunywa/ mm?/ |
8. F: Mm-hmm. But you said that Banza... T: ...Kongo... F: ...Kongo and others had civilization. What is civilization? T: Civilization? F: Mm-hmm. T: It's that we have -- it is authenticity. [It means that someone] is at home when he eats, dresses, lives, and builds. F: Mm-hmm. T: To build one's home, that is what civilization is like. And to drink at home, all that was civilization. Like in the beginning they drank from this small gourd the ancestors used to have. F: Mm-hmm. T: That's were they first drank from, right? |
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9. bon/ nazani nafika pale: F: sasa: oui: minaona uliandika: ni mu tableau hapa/ T: [reads] Diego Cao et le roi du Congo: bon/ ni kusema Diego Cao na roi wa Congo/ ali: yeye anauliza/ oui: c'est le fleuve Nzadi/ Zaire/ a dit Banza Kongo/ après quelques jours: fût la rencontre Stanley: et le groupe de Diego Cao: qui était composé de Dhanis: Bodson: et les autres/ ni ile itaendelea juu ya ...?... F: mm/ T: nitaelezea/ bon/ ile nazania: inamalizika/ F: inamalizika: tunaona tu: motoni hapa: T: bon: motoni: sawa: naelezea nakuelezea mambo mingi juu ya ile: tableau: F: oui/ T: ile yote tunasumbulia/ F: tutaweza kurudia ku: ku mwisho/ tutarudia ku: ku matableaux: T: aah/ F: na utaweza kunielezea madetails/ T: madetails/ F: sasa tu: tufwate tu/ T: bon/ F: sawa vile unataka/ T: bon/ bon/ F: kama unataka ku: T: non: tuanze tu: F: kusumbulia juu ya: ya madetails: T: aah/ F: unielezee/ kama unataka turudie: enfin: T: detail: par example minazania: bon tutarudia ma: tutarudia mara ingine eh? F: mm/ T: ah bon/ ou bien kama uko na mambo: na mambo ya kuuliza: unaniuliza: minakujibu: yote: F: nikamate ingine? T: bon kamate sasa ingine/ |
9. Alright, I think now I got to the point where... F: ...Now, yes, I see that you wrote something on the picture here. T: [reads] 'Diogo Cao et le roi du Congo.' Alright, that is to say, Diogo Cao and the king of the Congo. He [Cao] asked; Banza said, "Yes, this is the river Nzadi, Zaire." [Continues reading] "After a few days there was the meeting between Stanley and Diogo Cao's group, which consisted of Dhanis, Bodson, and the others." It is the [group] that is going to continue about ...?... F: Mm-hmm. T: I am going to explain. Alright, I believe [what I have to say about this painting] is finished. F: That is all. What we see there is the river. T: Alright, the river. [But this is enough] because I explained this painting to you at length. F: Yes. T: We talked about all this. F: We can get back to it at the end, when we take the pictures again [one by one]. T: Ah. F: And then you can explain detail to me. T: Detail. F: Now let's continue. T: Alright. F: It depends on what you want. T: Alright, alright. F: If you want to... T: ... no, let's just start... F: talk now about detail. T: Yes. F: Then tell me. If you want us to go back [to the story], well... T: Regarding detail, I believe, we'll get back to this some other time, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: Very well, unless you have something to ask, then ask me, I'll answer everything. F: Shall I take up another [painting]? T: Alright, take up another one. |
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10. bon/ ngambo ya Katanga: Livingstone alikutanishana: na watu: wa Katanga [Painting 6: Livingstone in Katanga]/ na mizigo: ya mukuba/ kutokea nayo ku Katanga/ kwenda kuuzisha mbali/ naye alisagaa: kwa kuona mara ya kwanza: muntu wa namna: wasiyo namna yake: rangi yake: mais: nayee njo eko anaenda kutafuta: mais anaona: na ile mukuba: na mansambo: na bintu ingine: na charette beko nasukuma: beko banakwenda wapi: ku: kuuzisha ile: mukuba/ aliwauliza/ hawakuweza kusikilizana/ kwa lugha/ habakusikilizanaka kwa kinywa: sababu kabila ya huyu: na kabila ya huyu iliachana/ huyu anasema kyakwabo: anasema kyakwabo: banashinda kusikilizana pale/ F: mm/ T: bon/ alimuonyesha: mukuba: alitaja jina ya chef Katanga/ nayee Livingstone: aliandika ndani ya buku yake/ na Livingstone alienda zake: akipitia kwa njia: ya Lac Moero: na: alifika Nguba: akakuta watu weusi: weko nafanya chumvi/ nakafika Mulungwishi/ kwenyewe: aliendelea: na kufundisha dini: ya kiProtestant/ basi: alichoka: na akapumuzika/ F: mm/ T: ni tableau ile/ F: mm/ T: ahah/ |
10. Fine, in the region of Katanga, Livingstone got to meet people from Katanga [Painting 6: Livingstone in Katanga]. They had come with a shipment of copper ingots from Katanga and were going to sell it in faraway places. And he was amazed to see for the first time a human being different from himself, with a color other than his. But, after all, he had set out to search [for wealth] and so he saw the copper ingots and the copper wire and other things on the cart they were pushing. "Where are they going [he thought] to sell that copper?" He asked them, but they simply had no language in which to communicate. They belonged to different peoples; one spoke the language of his home country, the other his, and so they failed to understand each other. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. [Someone] showed [Livingstone] the copper and pronounced the name of chief Katanga. And Livingstone wrote it down in his book. And Livingstone continued his travels; on his way he passed Lake Moero and came to Nguba, where he met black people who were producing salt. The he arrived in Mulungwishi, and that is where he continued to teach the Protestant religion. Finally, he got tired and rested. F: Mm-hmm. T: That is [what I have to tell about] this painting. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. |
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11. [Picks up Painting 7: Stanley's Arrival] na kwa wakati ule eh? ungine explo: explorateur/ explorateur: mm? ba jina ya Stanley: aliweza kutoka Belgique/ na kufika Angola/ alizidi kuendelea/ mpaka: Zaire/ Katanga/ akafika pa mugini moja: aliona watu/ nao walikimbia/ wote porini/ hakuweza kufanya kitu hata moja/ alichoka: na alirudia pa Belgique/ sababu sawa vile alitembeaka: alitoka mbali ku Belgique: F: mm/ T: Stanley ni Portugais/ mais sawa vile: F: yee ni Portugais? T: ni Portugais Stanley/ sawa vile baba yake na mama yake walikufwaka: hakukuwa na muntu ya kuenea kumuchunga: alitokaka tu mutoto kidogo sana/ nakwenda tu pote: sawa ku mashua la maji: matelot par example: na bamatelots bale: banakafukuza: paka vile: ku chance yake: alipata kufika ku Belgique/ alikuya balimuweka ku nyumba ya: ba: ya batoto wa maskini/ F: mm/ T: bon/ kule: alikomea: na alikuwa muntu wa akili/ voilà: siku kidogo: alipatana na: le roi Léopold deux: F: mm/ T: ni ule alimusemaka kumbe kama uko na nguvu: F: mm/ T: eeh: kama uko na nguvu: F: eh kale ka? [interruption] T: ah: kama uko na nguvu: F: mm/ T: wende mu: mu Afrique/ ukavumbula na wee ujue: fasi ya bale batu: tunasikia kama batu banavivre/ na ku kwanza kuita bantu balisema kama: bale batu: beko na mikila/ iko sawa macaques? hatujue kama ni batu gani? F: mm/ T: eeh/ shee tunaona: tunasikia kama ni: vile/ kumbe: wende ukaangarie/ sawa beko nasema tu ku kinywa: wende ukaangarie/ nayee alitokaka: Belgique weee: alifika mu Angola: kufika mu Angola: alipatana tena na batu mpaka mu Angola: aliingia nabo mu Zaire: F: mm/ T: alitembea: alifika mugini moja: anaka: [aside] làlàlà/ anafika mugini moja: ali: ali: kuta batu/ batu bale: kwa kumuona tu: ah [claps his hands] bote banakimbia/ mukimbia mwabo balikimbia mu pori: aku: alishinda na muchoko ya kule alitoka mbali: akukwa mufano ya tena kuendelea: nawakuuliza neno asema uku ni wapi: ii ni fasi gani/ |
11. [Picks up Painting 7: Stanley's Arrival] And at that time -- you understand? -- another explorer by name of Stanley managed to leave Belgium and arrive in Angola. From there, he went on to Zaire and Katanga. Whenever he came to a village and saw people, they all fled into the bush. There was nothing he could do. He got tired and went back to Belgium. Because [he was dissatisfied with] the way his trip went; after all he had come far away from Belgium. F: Mm-hmm. T: Stanley was Portuguese. However, since... F: ... he was Portuguese? F: He was Portuguese, Stanley was. Because his father and his mother had died and he had no one to take care of him, he left [home] at a very early age and traveled all over the place, for instance, as a sailor on ships, but the sailors chased him away.13 Then he had the good fortune to get to Belgium, where they put him into an orphanage. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. There he grew up to become an intelligent person. And there you are, soon he met with King Leopold II. F: Mm-hmm. T: He was the one who told [Stanley]: "If you have the strength." F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, "If you have the strength ... F: [interruption] ...it's this little ...14 T: ... ah, if you have the strength." F: Mm-hmm. T: "Then go to Africa. You should discover that place where we've heard people live. When they first named those people it was said that they had tails. Were they like monkeys? We don't know what kind of people they are." F: Mm-hmm. T: Right. "We see, or rather, we hear that this is what they are like. So, you go and seek whether they have a language, go and look." So he left Belgium and after a long trip he came to Angola. In Angola he met people and together with them he entered Zaire. F: Mm-hmm. T: So he traveled and would come to a village, [aside] oh my, oh my,15 where he encountered people. But when those people saw him, ah [claps his hands], they all ran away. Whenever they fled, they took off for the bush. [Stanley] was taken over by fatigue, [after all] he had come from far away. There was no way he could go on asking them: Where am I, what kind of place is this? |
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12. ts: bon: alirudia: nakwenda kuleta ma: rapports yake: marapports yake: kwa: Léopold deux/ F: ah: [Painting 8: Stanley Reports to Leopold II] njo rapport yake ya Stanley/ T: eeh/ na kumuambia ya kama: nalienda mule ulinituma/ minafika/ ni kweli nalikutanisha batu bengine: beko naexister/ naliwabeba: tulikwenda nabo: katikati ya Afrique/ na minakutanisha bale batu: mais naliona kwa mbali: na mi sijue kama ni batu ou bien kama ni nyama/ beko nakimbia bote ndani ya pori/ na mi sikuwa namna moya ya kufanya: nali: nalirudia/ sawa vile narudia huku: ni juu ya kuelezea/ nayee Léopold alimuelezea oui: sawa vile unasema: kulikuwa ungine anaisha kutangulia: anaisha ku: kwenda mbele/ tunashikia kama Livingstone/ c'est un Anglais/ ni Anglais/ F: mm/ T: anaisha kwenda/ alafu kumbe bafanye nguvu: mutafute: fasi utamupata/ yee atakuelezea muzuri: utajua ile mugini/ njo maana alitokaka: na kwenda kutafuta: Livingstone/ Stanley/ bon/ F: mm/ T: alikwenda namutafuta: namutafuta: namutafuta: namutafuta: anakwenda kumupata: mu: Mulungwishi/ F: mm/ |
12. Alright then, he went back to make his reports to Leopold II. F: Ah, [Painting 8: Stanley Reports to Leopold II] this is about Stanley giving his report. T: Yes, and he told him: "I went where you sent me. I got there and, it is true, I found other people. So they exist. I took them along and we traveled together into the interior of Africa. I met those people [who live there] but I only saw them from far away and I don't know whether they are people or animals. They all ran away into the bush. There was nothing I could do about it, so I came back. I returned here to tell you about it." Then Leopold told him: "Yes, as you said, there is a person who had already spent some time there. He went earlier. [The name] we heard was something like 'Livingstone.' He is an Englishman. F: Mm-hmm. T: He had gone earlier. So [said Leopold] one should make an effort and you should look for the place where you can find him. He is going to inform you thoroughly, and you will get to know this village. That is why Stanley set out to go and look for Livingstone. Alright." F: Mm-hmm. T: So he went and looked for him all over the place until he found him in Mulungwishi. F: Mm-hmm. |
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13. T: ku Mulungwishi kule alimupata [Painting 9: Stanley Meets Livingstone]: Livingstone alikuwa zamani gani na bantu: ba mu Zaire: bale balisema kama balimukimbia Livings: nani: Stanley/ F: mm/ T: balikuwa nabo bien: alibakuta beko nafanya chumvi yabo: ao banafanya mukuba: banasumbulia: anaanza kubafundisha na mambo ya dini: anafundisha dini ile inaingia mara ya kwanza mu Zaire: na baProtestants/ voilà alibafundisha: anabafundisha: anabafundisha: Stanley: siku kidogo: anakuwa kutokea mu mukini ile/ anakuta bantu mingi/ na sultani/ tiens/ na: Livingstone vilevile/ balipokeleana: na furaha mingi kabisa kabisa/ na Living: na Stanley alikala siku kidogo mu ile mugini: alimuelezea asema kumbe mi sasa: ni safari/ ya ile balinituma: nitaendelea tu/ aliitika asema bon ni muzuri: minabakia tu kwa akili4 niko mugonjwa/ na yeye: ali: ali: alibakia/ yeye: Stanley alikwenda/ F: mm/ |
13. T: It was at Mulungwishi that he found Livingstone [Painting 9: Stanley Meets Livingstone]. He had lived there for who knows how long, together with people from Zaire, the same that were said to have run away from Stanley. F: Mm-hmm. T: They got along fine. When he had arrived there he found they were producing salt and copper ingots, and they talked. He began to teach them about religion; he taught the religion that was the first to get into Zaire, that of the Protestants. And he continued to teach them for a long time. It took Stanley only a short while to get to this village. There he found many people, a chief, and, to his surprise, Livingstone as well. They greeted each other and were full of joy. Stanley stayed a while in this village, then he told [Livingstone]: "I must be on my way. I shall continue my mission." [Livingstone] accepted this and said: "Fine, but I'll stay here, because I am sick." So he stayed behind; Stanley left. F: Mm-hmm. |
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14. T: kisha kwenda kwake: ku mukongo yake: Stanley sawa vile alibakia: nani: Livingsto: Livingstone sawa vile alibakia maladi: alikufa/ F: alikufa/ T: alikufa/ kisha kufa: Livingstone alikufia mikono ya bantu mweushi [Painting 10: Livingstone's Death]/ bale alianza kufundisha: na walimuzika: namna ya kinkambo huku kwetu/ balichumbula ndani ya ndibwe: F: mm/ T: namukamata balimuingisha mule: banafunyika/ Livingstone: alikufa/ |
14. T: After Stanley had left Livingstone continued to be ill and died. F: He died. T: He died. Livingstone died in the arms of black people [Painting 10: Livingstone's Death], those he had begun to teach. They buried him. Following the custom of our ancestors, here they dug a hole among the rocks. F: Mm-hmm. T: They took him, put him inside, and covered [the hole]. So Livingstone was dead. |
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15. na wakati ule: na wakati ile alikufa: F: mm/ T: nazani Living: na Stanley alizidi tu kuendelea weee: paka ngambo ya Stanleyville/ zamani: za: zamani alikuya: Kisangani/ F: mm/ T: alikuta ile jina/ Kisangani/ alitembea sana anafika na kule ngambo: anaexplorer/ na kisha anarudia: anakuwa kumuelezea: F: mm/ T: [aside] anakuwa ...?...: anakuwa kumuelezea: Léo: Léopold deux: asema kama minatoka ku Zaire: ku Zaire: minaisha kazi yangu yote: najua na mambo yote: inapita: kule/ bon/ |
15. It was the at time when [Livingstone] died. F: Mm-hmm. T: I think, Stanley went on and covered a great distance until he got to the area of Stanleyville, which long ago used to be Kisangani. F: Mm-hmm. T: He found this name, Kisangani. He traveled a lot and when he got there he explored the region. Then he returned and made his report [to the King]. F: Mm-hmm. T: [aside] ...?...16 He made his report to Leopold II: "I come from Zaire, [where] I have completed all my tasks. I know everything that is happening there." Alright.17 |
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16. bon: katikati ya Zaire: ile wakati ile: kulikuya: paka: lufu kwa bantu: ya Ngongo Lutete/ Ngongo Lutete naye: aliikala tu: ni juu ya: kuua batu [Painting 11: Chief Ngongo Lutete]/ F: mm/ T: kukata: kuweka mu chungu: kula: nyama yake/ bon/ wale wengine watumwa: ni kufunga kamba: kuuzisha/ ku wa: sawa vile chef de l'Etat alisema: kwa commissionnaires: Arabes/ bon/ anabapatia bale batu: balikufunga nkamba: bale nabo anabeba: anakwenda kupeleka: ku Zanzibar/ na kuwauzisha/ kwa wazungu: nao wazungu walianza kwenda nao katikati: katika utumwa/ F: mm/ T: ku bulaya: na ku Amérique/ ni vilevile banaexister banoirs Américains/ banègres/ ni bale batu balitoka uku kwetu: balianza kuuzishwa ile wakati/ nazania: depuis bale batu balikwenda kuko: eh: quatre cent: miaka mia inne eh? F: mm/ T: oui/ kuko siècles inne tuseme/ eeh/ |
16. Alright. At that time, in the interior of Zaire, the people of Ngongo Lutete were sowing death. Ngongo Lutete sustained himself by killing people [Painting 11: Chief Ngongo Lutete]. F: Mm-hmm. T: He had them cut up and put into a cooking pot; then he ate their flesh. Alright. Others were tied up and sold as slaves, as the head of State said, to Arab agents. Alright. He delivered those people to them and they tied them up, took them away, and brought them to Zanzibar. And they sold them to the whites. And the whites went away with them and [sold them] as slaves. F: Mm-hmm. T: In Europe and America. So there are now black Americans, Negroes. They are the people who came from our country and were sold at that time. I think this happened four hundred years ago, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, let's say four centuries ago. |
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17. bon/ siku kidogo Stanley na nkundi ya Dhanis: balikutanishana/ F: [points to painting] hapa? T: banakutanishana: na waArabu/ nakwenda kuvumbula: nyumba: ya: Ngongo Lutete/ na walipikana kabisa kabisa/ waliua waArabes: na kuwafukuza/ kuwakuza kwa lote/ kisha kuwafukuza waArabes: walikimbia [Painting 12: Arab Defeat]/ |
17. Alright. Not long after that Stanley and the group of Dhanis met. F: [points to painting] Here? T: They also met the Arabs and eventually discovered the residence of Ngongo Lutete. They had a fierce fight; they killed [many] Arabs and chased them away for ever. The Arabs were chased away and fled [Painting 12: Arab Defeat]. |
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18. bon/ nazania: balibamba bachefs bale benyewe bakubwa: ba baArabes [Painting 13: The Execution of the Arab Leaders]/ F: mm/ T: balibamba bachefu bakubwa baArabes: na kuwaua/ nazania kati yabo: balibambaka Rumaliza: Tipo Tipo: Mwinimutara/ kisha kuwaua: basi/ |
18. Alright, I think they captured the most important leaders of the Arabs and killed them [Painting 13: The Execution of the Arab Leaders]. F: Mm-hmm. T: They captured the big Arab leaders and killed them. Among them, I believe, they caught Rumaliza, Tipo Tip, and Mwinimutara. Then they killed them, and that was that. |
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19. sawa vile Banza Kongo [Painting 14: The Poisoned Banza Kongo]: F: mm/ T: kisha kuwaua: sawa vile Banza Kongo alipenda: watu wote/ weusi kama weupe/ alipenda yee wazungu: wala muntu mweusi/ na kwanza kuwa muntu alipenda busultani yake ilizidi kuendelea sawa vile nilikuambia kulikuwa civilisation de: ya watu weusi ya wa Kongomani/ bon: ali: alikuwa warafiki na Léopold deux/ F: mm/ T: bon/ Léopold deux: aliwaza mawazo ya kusema kama: sawa vile huyu mutu ana: pokelea banduku yangu na kuikala nabo: kumbe vile: mitakamata sasa jina ya Zaire: mitatosha/ nitakamata: ile ilikuwa mawazo yake na mayele yake/ F: mm/ T: atujue politique yake alikuwa naye/ nitakamata kutosha ile jina: na nimupe jina ya: Congo/ irudie mu: Zaire/ ile fleuve Zaire anasema: itatoka/ ni kweli alikamata: nani: jina ya Banza Kongo: aliupa: inchi Congo/ na aliita kama: Congo/ na jina ya Zaire: ilikufa ile wakati/ F: mm/ T: bon/ kisha kufa kwa: kwa: kwa nani: kwa jina ya Zaire: kisha kufwa kwa jina ya Zaire: nazania Banza Kongo: eeh: wazungu walisema: balimuambia Banza Kongo/ tunatafuta kufanya karamu/ karamu c'est que ni fête/ njo tunakupatia jina: na wee unabakia sultani wa: inchi yote ya: Congo/ F: mm/ T: ni kweli nayee aliitika/ kwa furaha/ kulikuwa furaha munene: na ya kweli/ na kisha ndani ya furaha mule: Banza Kongo: balimwekeaka sumu/ balimuempoisonner: na alikufa/ nazania kufa kwa Banza Kongo: basi bantu balipoteza bintu byote na akili yote/ ni sawa vile minakuelezea kama: ku tableau sawa minaandika: yakuwa: mu: eh: président Mobutu alisema je cite eh? F: mm/ T: [reads from painting] l'Afrique est un continent qui a subi le [sic] plus grande humiliation de l'histoire/ naendelea tena: le noir n'a plus à échapper au razzias car il perd tout simplement ces droits: sa patrie: et sa liberté/ Mobutu/ F: mm/ T: fin de citation/ njo wakati: ile muntu mweusi alipoteza yote: na alikuwa sasa ndani ya utumwa/ na balikamata: muzungu: alimukombola Banza Kongo: na ni muzungu Portugais/ na kisha kukombola: Banza Kongo: hakukuwe tena mufano: tulikuwa ndani ya: utumwa/ na usultani yetu: ilikufa paka pale/ |
19. Now take Banza Kongo [Painting 14: The Poisoned Banza Kongo]. F: Mm-hmm. T: After they had killed the Arabs -- take Banza Kongo. He liked everyone, white or black. He liked the whites, he liked the black man. Above all he was a person who liked to be the chief, and he made much progress. There was, as I told you, civilization among the black people of Kongo. Alright. [Banza Kongo] was friends with Leopold II. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. Leopold II thought up this idea: "Because this man received my associates and lived with them, I am now going to remove the name 'Zaire.' I am going to take" -- this was his idea and his plan... F: ...mm-hmm... T: ... we don't know what kind of politics he had in mind -- "I am going to take this name away and I shall call it 'Congo'-- that will replace 'Zaire;' 'Zaire' as the name of the river will have to go." And, truly, he took Banza Kongo's name and gave it to the country of the Congo. He called it "Congo," and the name "Zaire" died at that time. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. When the name Zaire had died, when the name Zaire had died, I think Banza Kongo, or rather, the whites spoke and told Banza Kongo: "We want to organize a karamu. Karamu means feast. This when we give you the name and you will remain the ruler of the entire country of the Congo." F: Mm-hmm. T: Truly, he was pleased to accept, and there was joy, great and sincere. And then, in the midst of this joy, they gave Banza Kongo some poison. They poisoned him and he died. With the death of Banza Kongo, I believe, people lost all their possessions and all their knowledge. It was as I explained it to you and as I wrote on the painting. President Mobutu said -- I quote, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: [Reads from painting] "Africa is a continent that suffered the greatest humiliation in history." I go on quoting: "The black man no longer can escape the raids, for he quite simply loses his rights, his homeland, and his freedom. Mobutu." F: Mm-hmm. T: End of quotation. That was the time, when the black man lost everything and from then on he lived in slavery. Then they took a white person, a Portuguese, who replaced Banza Kongo. Once they had replaced Banza Kongo there was no way out; we lived in slavery. Our sovereignty died right there. |
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20. na kisha kufa kwa usultani: eh: Stanley alirudi tena ku: bulaya: na kumulezea Léopold kama sasa mu Zaire hamuna tena: kitu/ kunabakia: mu Congo pardon ile tuliweka jina amuna tena kitu: kunabakiako paka chef moya: jina yake ni: Katanga: F: mm/ T: vilevile na Msiri: na Pande: Kashipo: Nkwande: F: mm/ T: bale bote ni bachefu nakuelezea: banabakia/ alafu mukubwa yabo minazania ni: Katanga [Painting 15: Chief Katanga and Chief Msiri]/ F: mm/ T: ni kweli pale alikwenda kule: Katanga naye huku: alibakia: maladi/ anapata maladi/ sawa vile balikuwa barafiki na Msiri: njo alikuwa rafiki wa kweli/ alimuita/ kwake/ anamuikalisha/ anamuelezea/ Msiri/ wewe uko rafiki yangu/ na miye: kuzala kwangu nalizala: nakuwa kuona tu mutoto yangu anakuwa kidogo: ni mwanaume/ yee bado kukomea/ nikipima kukamata niite mutu wa mu mukini yangu niupe busultani: mitapoteza: byote/ kumbe vile: weye sawa uko rafiki eh? ubebe inchi yangu hii/ na bintu yangu: na babibi yangu: na mbuzi yangu: na: byote tu na mali yangu/ F: mm/ T: uchunge/ kama mutoto huyu anakomea: bon: uta: utapa: utamurudishia bitu yake: byote/ voilà: ni ile minakuambia kama ni tableau inasema: [reads from painting] grand chef Katanga fait ses adieux à Msiri/ mm? le criminel/ en tout cas notez bien: Msiri est arrière grand père de: ex-Godefroid Munongo: ancien ministre de l'interieur: de l'ex-Katanga eh? F: mm/ T: bon: voilà/ ni nkambo yake na Munongo eh? ile ni adisi/ |
20. When sovereignty had died, well, Stanley returned to Europe and informed Leopold: "In Zaire, sorry, in the Congo as we called it, there is now nothing [in our way] anymore. Only one ruler remains, his name is Katanga. F: Mm-hmm. T: And also Msiri: Pande, Kashipo, Nkwande." F: Mm-hmm. T: Let me explain: All those were left but I think their leader was Katanga [Painting 15: Chief Katanga and Chief Msiri]. F: Mm-hmm. T: So, actually, when [Stanley] left, Katanga remained here, sick. He fell ill and because he and Msiri were friends -- he was really a close friend -- he called him to his house. He made him sit down and told him this: "Msiri, you are my friend. Among my offspring I only have one small child, a boy. He is not grown up yet. If I try to appoint someone from my village to be the chief I will lose everything. Therefore, seeing as you are my friend, take this country of mine. Take my possessions, my wives, my goats, everything, and my also my wealth. F: Mm-hmm. T: Guard it. When this child has grown up, give him back all that belongs to him." There you are, this what I am telling you and what it says on the picture: "The great chief Katanga takes his leave from Msiri, the criminal." At any rate, take good note, Msiri is the great-grandfather of Munongo, formerly Godefroid, who used to be minister of the interior of the former Katanga, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: So, here we are. He is a forefather of Munongo, right? This is the story. |
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21. bon: voilà alimuelezea vile alimuelezea muzuri: kisha Msiri: anabakia sasa: kisha Katanga anakufa/ kisha kufa kwa Katanga: Msiri anabakia/ na busultani: na byote/ kisha kubakia na busultani na byote: anaangalia sasa: ngambo na ngambo/ mukini na busultani: bunakuwa butamu/ na anasema sawa nitafanya gani? kumbe peupe pa hapa: miye nitakamata paka mutoto wenyewe baliniachia: niue/ ni kweli: alikamata mutu ule: alikwenda naye: [pointing to the painting] munaona ni ku mpembeni ya mukini: na tuburi ya baba yake ya mutoto: njo ile bado ...?... kutoka majani/ ya kusema kama ilikawa/ alikamata mutoto: anakata kichwa: anaua [Painting 16: Msiri Kills Katanga's Son]/ na kisha kuua mutoto: alibakia sultani: wa: bantu ya Katanga: na sultani wa Bunkeya/ ni vile minasema le fils du chef Katanga: executé par Msiri: l'ami de son père/ kisha ku: kisha kumuua: anabakia busultani: kuonyesha hakukuwa muntu tena aliweza kusema: kitu/ F: mm/ |
21. Fine, so he explained all this to him at length. Then Katanga died while Msiri stayed alive [and took over] the office of chief and everything. Having been left with the office of chief and everything, he looked about; he saw the village and found the office of chief to be sweet. He said: "What am I going to do? Here, in this open place, I am just going to grab the child they18 left in my care and kill him. It's true, he took this person and went with away him [pointing to painting] you see [this place] alongside the village, and there is the burial ground with the grave19 of this child's father, still not overgrown, which would have meant that it had been there for some time. He took the child and killed it by beheading [Painting 16: Msiri Kills Katanga's Son]. After he had killed the child, he remained chief of the people of Katanga as well as chief of Bunkeya. It was as I say [on the painting]: "The son of chief Katanga executed by Msiri, his father's friend." After he had killed him, he kept the office of chief and no one dared to expose [his crime] or to say anything about it. F: Mm-hmm. |
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22. T: siku moja: bale ba: Bodson/ alianza kutelemuka: sawa balipata marapports kule Stanley alikwenda: juu ya chef Katanga: balimukuta kama anaisha kufa/ F: mm/ T: balimukuta Msiri sasa/ F: mm/ T: balimuelezea: Msiri: tunakuya humu: mu Bunkeya: tunatafuta tupandishe: drapeau yetu: ya: ya baBelges/ sawa bo bote balikuwa baPortugais mais balikuwa: balikuwa: payés par les Belges/eh? F: mm/ T: par le roi des Belges/ banumutumikia nani: sultani wa: wa baBelges/ sawa vile tunatafuta tutumikie: eh: tupandishe drapeau yetu: umu mu Bunkeya/ Msiri alisema: haiwezekane/ kupandisha drapeau humu mu inchi yangu/ na akujua ata maana drapeau/ mais alikatala tu kwa kukatala asema: haiwezekane kuweka ile nguo: ndani ya inchi yangu/ F: mm/ T: bon [chuckles]/ bon/ kisha yake: Bodson: kwa kichwa yake nguvu: alisema mitapandisha tu/ alikamata drapeau: anaanza kupandisha/ Msiri alitoka: na lance/ mush: mukuki/ F: na mukuki/ T: na kumutwanga Bodson: na kumuua [Painting 17: Msiri Kills Bodson]/ ile nkundi ya: ya Msiri: ya Bodson: iliona vile: ilibeba bunduki: na kumupika: Msiri/ kisha kumupika Msiri: Msiri: alikufa/ |
22. One day, Bodson and his group began to descend [on Katanga]. They had reports about chief Katanga from the place where Stanley had gone. [When they arrived] it turned out that he was already dead. F: Mm-hmm. T: So now they met Msiri. F: Mm-hmm. T: They explained to Msiri: "We have come here to Bunkeya and we want to raise our flag, that of the Belgians." All of them were Portuguese, but they were paid by the Belgians, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: By the King of the Belgians. They worked for the ruler of Belgium. So [they said]: "We want to raise our flag here in Bunkeya." Msiri said: "Raising a flag here in my country is not acceptable." He did not even know what "flag," meant but he refused anyway. "This piece of cloth must not be put up inside my country." F: Mm-hmm. T: Fine [chuckles], fine. Then Bodson, being a strong-headed person, said, "I am going to raise it nevertheless. He took the flag and began to raise it. Msiri came out with a lance, a spear. F: A spear. T: He struck Bodson and killed him [Painting 17: Msiri Kills Bodson]. When the group of Msiri, or rather of Bodson, saw this, a gun was brought and fired at Msiri whereupon he died. |
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23. kisha kufa kwa Msiri: bali: balikamata mwili yake: kukata kichwa: kutosha kichwa [Painting 18: Msiri Is Beheaded]/ F: mm/ T: kisha kutosha kichwa: allez: balibeba ile kichwa: na bale balibeba: namu: balipatikana bantu mweushi: balianza kutembea na baexplorateurs ya: ya baPortugais bale/ F: mm/ T: bon/ balibeba ile kichwa: kuweka ku muti: kwanza kuenda naye/ na walienda kipande murefu kabisa na ile: kichwa/ F: mm/ T: muntu wa kwanza: alisema kama minachoka/ unachoka namna gani? twende: asema apana minachoka sana/ muntu mi ananikombole/ bashi kusema tu vile: nazania na yeye alianguka pale: anakufa/ muntu wa pili alibeba/ anakufa/ nazania: kule kote ilienda ile kichwa ni paka ule alibeba: alikufa/ ule alibeba: alikufa/ sawa vile minakuelezea asema kama ni adisi banaanzia kutuelezea na shee ku bankambo: tulikuta na sheye: ni kweli ile kichwa: atujue na kule: iliendaka/ kama ni ku bulaya? kama iko mu maMusées? ou bien kama iko ku nyumba ya Léopold deux? kama iko kwa nani? atujue na sasa hapa/ F: mm/ T: aah/ bon: nazania wa: nani: busultani sasa ya bantu mweushi inapotea sawa vile nilikuelezea kabisa kabisa: akuna: banaéliminer bote/ |
23. After Msiri had died they took his body and cut off the head, which they kept apart [Painting 18: Msiri Is Beheaded]. F: Mm-hmm. F: Then they took the head and carried it off. And those who were carrying this head found black people who began to travel together with those Portuguese explorers. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. The way they carried this head was to put it on a pole and walk with it. And they traveled very far indeed with this head. F: Mm-hmm. T: [Eventually] the first man [to carry the head] would say: "I am tired." "What do you mean, you're tired [the others would say], let's go." "No, I am very tired and some one should relieve me." I believe what happened is this: No sooner had [the carrier of the pole] spoken in such a way than he dropped dead right there. Then a second person carried [the pole]. He died. I think wherever this head went, the person who carried it died. The person who carried it died. I am telling you this because it's a story we were first told by our forefathers, we had already found it. In all truth, we don't know where this head went. Is it in Europe, in some Museum, in the house of Leopold II, or with whom? Up to this day, we don't know. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, well, as I told you, I think that was when the sovereignty of black people was definitely lost. No one was left, they had eliminated all [the rulers]. |
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24. bon: bali: pata kupandisha drapeau: balipata kupandisha drapeau: ya kwanza: ya wa: Belges/ c'est à dire: njo tableau minakuonyesha kama début de la colonie belge [Painting 19: The Beginning of Belgian Colonization]/ F: mm/ T: bon/ sawa vile ilikuwa début de la colonie belge/ parole ya chef de l'état/ je cite: sous prétexte qu'ils étaient venus en Afrique pour nous civiliser: les premiers blancs: pioniers de cette civilisation: commenceront par vider nos pays respectives de leur substance fondamentale/ c'est vrai: pale balikuya mara ya kwanza: walikuya: tuliwazaka ni mu busultani/ bale baliisha kupoteza banduku yetu/ kumbe ilikuwa mawazo ya kusema: sasa tutapoteza tu: na ku mwisho/ |
24. Alright [reaches for painting]. They managed to raise the flag. They managed to raise the first Belgian flag. That is to say, this is the painting I am showing you, where it says: Beginning of the Belgian Colony [Painting 19: The Beginning of Belgian Colonization]. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. This is what the beginning of the Belgian Colony was like. A word of the Head of State -- I quote [reads from painting]: "Under the pretext of having come to Africa to civilize us, the first whites, "pioneers of that civilization," were to empty each of our countries of its fundamental substance." This is true; when they first arrived we thought they had come to take over from those rules who had caused our brothers to perish. Then we realized: Now we shall be lost forever. |
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25. mawazo ya kwanza: ya Léopold deux: aliwaza kutupatia: indépendance [Painting 20: The Congo Free State]/ na ile indépendance: aikukuwe kweli/ F: mm/ T: [aside] ...?...: na ile indépendance haikukuwe kweli/ ilikuwa vers mille huit cent quatre vingt cinq/ F: mm/ T: mais utaweza kunihurumia sawa vile mu histoire: eh: dans deux jours: radio ya Kinshasa: apa sasa mu mille neuf cent septante quatre: radio ya Kinshasa ilisema kama: eh: mu informations ile nali: shikia/ ilisema kama: indépendance ya Zaire ilikuwa ya: ya Congo: ile: nani Léopold deux alisigner: ilikuwa mille huit cent quatre vingt quatre/ F: mm/ T: mu Vivi/ et pourtant: kuko: kunapatikana mama moja: ule alikuwa pa ile wakati: balipandisha: balisema indépendance ya mille huit cent quatre vingt quatre quatre vingt cinq/ F: mm/ T: mais d'après l'histoire mi nalifunda ni mille huit cent quatre vingt cinq/ bon ni mambo ya radio ile ilisema/ F: mm/ T: bon: kufwata kwa histoire: ni mu juillet mille huit cent quatre vingt cinq: njo alisigner: indépendant/ ni kweli: sawa alisigner indépendant: bantu balikuwa chini ya butumwa ya: bazungu/ bazungu balikuya: kidoogo: sana/ na baliweka: busultani yabo/ F: mm/ |
25. At first, Leopold II had the idea to give us independence [Painting 20: The Congo Free State]. But that independence was not real. F: Mm-hmm. T: [aside] ...?... That independence was not real. This was around 1885. F: Mm-hmm. T: But you must excuse me because, two days ago, in [a program on] history, or rather in the news, I heard Radio Kinshasa say -- now in 1974 -- that the independence of Zaire, that is, of the Congo, the one signed by Leopold II, was in 1884. F: Mm-hmm. T: At Vivi. They even found a woman who was there at the time when they raised [the flag to mark] what they called the independence 1884-85. F: Mm-hmm. T: But according to the history I learned it was in July 1885. Alright, this is something the radio said. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, to get on with the history, it was in July 1885 that he signed independence. It is true, he signed independence, but the people were slaves under the whites. When the whites [first] arrived, there were only very few of them, and they imposed their rule. F: Mm-hmm. |
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26. T: kisha kuweka busultani yabo: mwaka inapita: mwaka inapita: ku Kabinda: kulikuwa: sultani moja jina yake: Lumpungu [Painting 21: The Hanging of Chief Lumpungu]/ F: mm/ T: Lumpungu: sawa vile alikuwa sultani: nayee alikuwa kichwa/ sawa vile alikuwa tu: namna ya kuéliminer: nani: civilisation zairoise: eeh? sawa vile nalikuelezea: balimuwaza: kumupata sasa: Lumpungu/ F: mm/ T: balisema kama: mutoto moja mwanamuke: alikuwa bibi wa muzungu: alitoka uku: Shaba/ sasa Shaba: wakati ile ilikuwa Katanga/ F: mm/ [noise of rummaging among paintings] tuendelee tu/ T: ah bon/ kutoka huku Shaba/ F: mm/ T: bon/ alikwenda kutembea kule Kabinda/ alikuwa na mutoto yake/ ule mutoto alikuwa mulâtre eh? sawa vile alikuwa ya muzungu/ alifika: kule: aliingia Kabinda/ Lumpungu: vile balisema: d'après majugements yake/ balimubamba: alibamba ule mutoto mwanamuke: na kumuua/ na kumula/ bon: balifanya maenquêtes: temps col: mu temps ile ya ba: temps colonial: balifanya maenquêtes: balipata kama ni Lumpungu aliuua ule mutoto mwanamuke: na kumula/ na walimufunga: F: na kumula? T: na kumula/ kuua kudya/ F: aah/ T: kudya/ F: ni kumula/ mm/ T: eeh/ bon: nazania walimufunga Lumpungu/ balimujuger: ku tribunal: na balisema kama: Lumpungu: eko condamné: à mort/ ni kweli: baliita bantu ya mukini: ba Kasai muzhima: ba Congo muzhima: balipatikana mu Kabinda/ na balikamata Lumpungu: balimutundika/ mais nasahabu shiku ya mwezi: na wakati inyewe/ |
26. So they set up their government. The years went by, the years went by. At Kabinda there was a chief by the name of Lumpungu [Painting 21: The Hanging of Chief Lumpungu]. F: Mm-hmm. T: Lumpungu was a chief, and a headstrong one at that. [The whites] were looking for ways to eliminate Zairean civilization, as I explained to you, didn't I? So now they schemed to get Lumpungu. F: Mm-hmm. T: They said that a young woman, who was the wife of a white man, came from Shaba here -- now Shaba, Katanga in those days. F: Mm-hmm. [Noise of rummaging among paintings] Let's just go on. T: Alright then. She came from Shaba here. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, she traveled to Kabinda, together with her child. That child was a mulatto, right? Because it was by a white man. She arrived and entered Kabinda. Lumpungu -- at least that is what they said [later] in the court findings -- had her apprehended, killed her, and ate her. So they carried out investigations [as it was usual] in colonial times, they made investigations and found that it was Lumpungu who had killed and eaten that young woman and they locked him up... F: And ate her?20 T: And ate her. Kill and eat. F: Aha. T: To eat. F: It [means] to eat her. Mm-hmm. T: Yes. Alright, I think they locked up Lumpungu, tried him in a court and came up with the verdict: Lumpungu is sentenced to die. It's true, they called together the people from the village, people from all over the Kasai, all over the Congo who happened to live in Kabinda. They took Lumpungu and hanged him. But I forgot the day of the month, even the year. |
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27. bon: sawa vile balitundika Lumpungu: ni kweli tunaitikia: Lumpungu alipoteza: mutu/ mais: ile wakati: F: mm/ T: ile wakati: ku kosa ya Lumpungu ile alifanya: F: mm/ T: ile wakati: benyewe balikuwa kutucolonizer bazungu: balikuya: nabo beko nakamata bantu/ tena balikamata mingi: kuliko/ bon: iko sawa vile nazania: chef de l'état alisema kama: eh: kulikuwa masystèmes: sporadiques: quoi encore? mais: naoublier: F: mm/ T: bon/ ni ile sawa vile minakuelezea: ilikuwa: balianza kukamata batu/ nabo vilevile: bo balitundika Lumpungu juu ya kubamba ule muntu alibamba/ sawa mutumbula/ she tunaita ?sawa mutumbula/ nabo balikuwa na ba: simba: bulaya/ mu Français: lion d'Europe [Painting 22: Lions from Europe]/ bon: ilikuwa je: ilikuya kama: bushiku bunaingia: F: mm/ T: wee muntu ukitoke: bushiku: wala ku parcelle yako: wende ku musalani: ku WC: utaweza kuta: wala mbili: wala tatu/ na mule ndani: baliengager banduku yetu: bantu mweushi balikuwa ndani njo banaanza kutumika/ kulikuwa muzungu moya ataweza commander: atafika: banakamata muntu ule/ banamuvula manguo yake: yote: mapièces yake: na bintu yake yote: kuacha paka pale/ allez: kubeba: kwenda naye/ na kumupoteza: sawa vile Lumpungu alifanya/ mais hakukuwa hata muntu moja: aliulizaka muzungu: wala na leo ?ile/ nazani ni adisi minafika pale juu ya kuonyesha/ sawa hapa sasa: bataweza kuongolea huyu muntu: kama afike karibu: batamukamata: na kumufanya paka vile kumuvula nguo na kumufunga nkamba: na kumupeleka: fasi ile: atujue/ na wale watu: abana adisi: abana abari: beko paka vile: na leo ?ile/ hatujue kama: walianza: kubakula: ou bien: kama: walibapoteza mu njia: gani/ atujue/ bon/ bon: nazania: c'est ça/ F: mm/ T: unashikia sawa: adisi ya ile eh? F: ndiyo/ ndiyo/ T: unasikia kabisa eh? njo ilikuwa batumbula/ she tuna...?... asema batumbula/ F: batumbula/ T: eeh: ataanza kuvala koti mweusi: murefu: na: chapeau na lampi/ et puis bushiku: ou bien: sawa baba yangu: mi par example: alipatikana na ile: nani: alikuwa anatumika kwa Amato Frères/ F: mm/ T: siku moja alitoka bushiku: kwenda: ku: ku kazi/ alifika katikati ya njia: alipatana nabo/ sawa vile ni muntu/ na wee uko muntu/ kama unasema Swahili kiloko: ts: [claps] batakubamba/ mais kama uko makali na weye: utakuwa na Mungu ya kupita/ nayee bali: kosanaka nabo bushiku bule: na kusemana: sema kweli? asema: eeh/ alafu unapona leo/ baba: alipita tu: kufika ku mbele: anaanza mbio na vile alikwenda kuingia ku kazi/ aliezeleaka bazungu yake ya kazi wakati: balisema haujue? ile fasi: muzungu mwenyewe alisema: ile fasi iko simba ya bulaya mingi/ nabo bali: jua kama ni kweli simba ya bulaya: iko mu njia/ ni batu bazima: balianza kubamba bantu/ F: mm/ T: ahah/ F: bon/ |
27. Alright, they hanged Lumpungu and we admitted the fact that Lumpungu had destroyed a human being. But, at that time. F: Mm-hmm. T: At that time, while Lumpungu committed this crime. F: Mm-hmm. T: At the same time, the whites themselves were busy colonizing us; they took people too, many more than [he did]. Alright. I think it was as the Head of State who said, there were "sporadic systems" -- what was it again, I forgot. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, what I am telling you is that they also began to take people, they who had hanged Lumpumgu because he had this person apprehended. Like the Mutumbula, we call them Mutumbula. They were the Simba Bulaya, "Lions from Europe' in French [Painting 22: Lions from Europe]. Alright, how was this? When it got dark. F: Mm-hmm. T: If you, a [black] person, left your property at night because you wanted to go to the toilet, you might meet two or three of them. Among them there were our brothers whom they had hired; black people were in it, they began to work [for them]. One white person would be in command, and once he got there they grabbed that person. They took his clothes, his papers, all he had on him, and left them right there. Then they carried him away and killed him just as Lumpungu has done. And there was never a black man who would have asked a white man [about that], even to this day [there's not]. That's why I thought I wanted to show this story here. Even right now they may be waiting for this [black] person, and when he gets close they grab him, and what they do to him is keep his clothes and tie him up with a rope. Then they carry him away to this place we do not know. Those people -- this is not just a tale, nor something you gossip about -- that's how they are, to this very day. We don't know whether they ate them, or how they disposed of them. Alright. Alright, I think that's that. F: Mm-hmm. T: You have heard stories about this, right? F: Yes, yes. T: You really heard about it, right? They were the Batumbula. We call them Batumbula. F: Batumbula. T: Yes, he'd wear a long, black coat and a [miner's] hat with a lamp and then, at night... My own father, for instance, once got caught up in this. At that time he worked for [the firm of] Amato Frères. F: Mm-hmm. T: One night he'd left for work. When he was halfway there, he ran into them. Now this person [who works for them] is a black man, and so are you. If you just say a word in Swahili, [claps] right away they are going to grab you. But if you are fierce [and put up resistance], God will help you to get away. In his case they missed each other in the dark and they talked to each other: "Are you sure [he won't come along]?" "Yes," he said. So you go free today. Father passed them and when he was ahead of them he started running, and so he got into the place where he worked. He then told his white supervisors about it. They said -- the white man himself said -- "Don't you know that this is a place where there a many Lions from Europe?" They knew that there were really Lions from Europe on the street. They were living persons who went about grabbing black people. F: Mm-hmm. T: Aha. F: Alright. |
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28. T: bon voilà [Painting 23: The Arrival of the Railroad at Sakania]/ nazania wakati ile: tunakuya sasa: mu mille neuf cent et cinq/ mille neuf cent et cinq: bon: bazungu balileta rail/ baliingisha mara ya kwanza: umu mu Zaire/ na ile rail: ili: aikuwa KDL sawa ?hivi tunaita sasa: ilikuwa CFK/ ilikuwa Chemin de Fer du Katanga/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ na ili: aikutoka hapa: Congo: apana: ilitokea: ku Afrique du Sud/ baliunga ile rail: njo ile inapita: weee: mpaka: leo ile inafika ku: Ilebo/ ingine inafika Dilolo/ F: mm/ T: sawa vile ilifika Sakania: mu mille neuf cent et cinq: ile ya: Lubumbashi: nazania: papier naweza kusahabu: najua madates ile: ku papier/ |
28. T: Alright, here you are [Painting 23: The Arrival of the Railroad at Sakania]. Now we come to the time -- it was in 1905, yes, 1905 -- when the whites brought in the railway. For the first time, they brought it here into Zaire. And this railway was not the KDL as we call it now, it was the CFK. That was for Chemin de Fer du Katanga. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. It did not start from here, from the Congo; it came from South Africa. They made the connection and then it continued even farther, so that by today one branch reaches Ilebo and another, Dilolo. F: Mm-hmm. T: So it came to Sakania in 1905. The date when it arrived in Lubumbashi I am afraid I forgot, but I know the dates; [they are] on a piece of paper. |
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29. bon: nazania: ni: mufano ma ...?... tunaingia sasa paka mu colonie/ eeh? bon: mille neuf cent et six: F: mm/ T: balicréer Gécamines/ bon: banacréer Gécamines: banaanza kuyengayo/ nazani unaona vile: beko naanza kuyenga: banaanza ile cheminée [Painting 24: The Founding of the Mining Company]: F: mm/ T: kule ule ?beko nakwenda: na vile cheminée iliisha/ siku kidogo: bazungu sasa: balikuya mingi: na kwanza: kuyenga inchi ya: ya Congo/ |
29. Alright, now I think we have an example of ...?... Now we get into [the time of] the colony, right? Alright, 1906. F: Mm-hmm. T: They created Gécamines. Alright, they created Gécamines and began construction. I think you see how they began building that smoke stack [Painting 24: The Founding of the Mining Company]. F: Mm-hmm. T: They got as far as they wanted (?) and thus the smoke stack was finished. Soon after -- now the whites were many -- they began to build the country of the Congo. |
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30. bon/ kipande ingine/ F: mm/ unataka kupumuzika kiloko? T: nitapumuzika? F: utapumuzika kiloko? T: apana tuendelee: F: ao: kamata nani: ...?... ver? T: bon/ F: ça va? T: aah ça va/ [turning the tape on the original recording] |
30. Alright, now to another chapter. F: Mm-hmm. Would you like to rest a little? T: I should rest? F: You want to rest a little? T: No, let's go on. F: Or you take a drink? T: Fine. F: You're alright? T: Yes, I am. [turning the tape on the original recording] |
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31. F: bon: sawa vile ulisema: T: bon/ F: unaanza sasa: kipande ingine/ T: sawa vile nalikuambia kama: alikukuwa kutucoloniser: mais: ilikuwa mawazo ingine eh? ni kweli: mu ile wakati: mu mille neuf cent vingt et un: à peu près: kulikuwa muntu moja: jina yake Simon Kimbangu [Painting 25: Simon Kimbangu in Court]/ ule Simon Kimbangu: akukuwe politicien/ akukuwe: quoi? akukuwe prophète/ ou bien imposteur eh? alikuwa ni muntu tu nayee Mungu alitumia akili: juu ya kuenea ku: kujisaidia/ sawa hivi hapa niko nafanya dessin/ ni kuisadia/ sifanye politique: shina politicien/ F: mm/ T: mais niko historien/ nitaweza kufwata histoire hapa lakini/ bon/ |
31. F: Fine, as you were saying. T: Alright. F: You now start with another chapter. T: As I've told you, this was the time when they colonized us. But then other ideas came up, right? Indeed, at that time, around 1921, there was a man, his name was Simon Kimbangu [Painting 25: Simon Kimbangu in Court]. This Simon Kimbangu, he was not a politician, he was not -- what am I looking for -- a prophet, or an impostor, you understand? He was a person to whom God had given enough reason to help and support himself. As to the drawing I've made here, [I do this] in order to help. I don't do politics, I am not a politician. F: Mm-hmm. T: Rather, I am a historian and what I can do here is follow history. |
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32. voilà kuisaidia: Mungu alipatia akili ...?... yako nako: pata: ku: kama muntu iko maladi: ataweza kufika: anamu: mwe: analomba kwa Mungu: anapona/ kama anafika kwa mukini: ataweza kuta muntu anavunjika: anamulamusha/ bon: eh: bazungu eh? baliona kama: ile akili: ya ule muntu: ilikuya mingi eh? amukuya mufano eh? baliwaza kumu: poteza/ ni kwa vile nitaweza ku: kukuomba/ sawa vile niko na ile papier: nitaweza kusoma ile partie yote ya mambo yake na mufano alizaliwa: inatuelezea histoire yake: na utaishikia/ mais nitasoma mu Français kwa lakini/ F: mm/ T: aah/ [reads from a newspaper cutting; transcription ignores phonetic particularities] Il est né dans la localité de Kamba/ sur la rive gauche du Sankuru: dans la zone de cataractes/ dont le chef-lieu était Thysville/ actuellement: Banza Ngungu/ la date de sa naissance est fixée aux environs de mille huit cent quatre vingt et un/ Kimbangu n'a pas connu sa mère/ morte peu après sa naissance/ il fût élevé par une tante: adepte de l'église baptiste/ et attachée à la mission protestante: de Ngombe Lutete/ ou Kimbangu fait ses études primaires/ orateur: remarquable/ il devint catéchiste/ c'est le début de sa vocation religieuse/ en dix neuf cent treize: Kimbangu épousa Maria: Wilu/ et eu avec elle trois enfants/ Kisolo Kieda: Ndialungana: Kiangani: et Ndiangenda/ ce dernier est aujourd'hui le chef spirituel de l'église Kimbanguiste/ durant l'exercise de ses fonctions: Kimbangu dut souvent affronter des sorciers/ le guérisseurs: les chefs traditionnels: et même les simples habitants: de villages: qu'il évangilisait/ car: tout voyait d'abord en lui un frère perdu/ vendu au blanc: et qui voulait détruire leurs valeurs traditionnels/ mais: il prêchait d'une façon si convaincante et autoritaire: qu'il finit par les: convertir/ Kimbangu fascinait des gens/ ceux-ci croyèrent peu après qu'il était envoyé: un envoyé de Dieu/ un prophète/ il aurait même opéré: des miracles/ guerir: des malades: et ressusciter des: des morts/ des milliers des gens malades: quittaient leurs villages/ situés parfois à plusieurs jours de marche pour aller voir Kimbangu/ ses succes lui attirent: évidemment l'hostilité de: de l'administration coloniale/ et de l'église catholique/ au mois de Juin dix neuf cent vingt et un: Kimbangu est arrêté/ mais parvint: à s'échapper durant le mêlée: qui suit son arreta: son arrestation/ à partir de cette periode: il poursuit ses oeuvres dans la clandestinité/ il est recherché pendant deux mois/ deux mois de gloire: qui confirment sa renommée prophétique/ le premier septembre dix neuf cent vingt et un: Kimbangu se livre aux autorités coloniales/ cent vingt cinq personnes sont arrêtées avec lui/ le cortège de prisonniers: dignes et fiers: chantant: des hymnes/ est conduit à Thysville/ le lendemain matin: on aurait dit un jour de fête/ le trois octobre dix neuf cent vingt et un à Thysville/ Simon Kimbangu est jugé par un conseil de guerre: avec douze de ses disciples/ accusé d'avoir porté atteinte à la sûreté de l'état/ il est condamné à la peine de mort/ Léopoldville ordonne la suspension: et l'execution: en attendant le decision de Bruxelles/ qui arrive au mois de novembre/ compte tenu de la nature: foncière: religieuse: du mouvement: du manque absolu de violence: et de meurtre: chez le prophète/ il semblait que la peine d'emprisonnement à perpetuité était plus équitable et convenable/ peu après: Kimbangu est transferé [aside to me] c'est fini: F: mm/ T: transferé à la fameuse prison centrale d'Elisabethville/ qui a eu l'honneur d'heberger beaucoup d'Africains aux idées avancées/ des precautions spéciales/ étaient prisent pour l'empêcher: de continuer son oeuvre/ en somme: il lui était interdit de prêcher: la parole de Dieu/ consideré come herétique: on decida de le convertir au catholicisme/ avant sa mort: qui intervint après trente ans de bagne: Kimbangu accept: accepta le baptême de l'église romaine/ de main de l'abbé ?Sankoto/ ainsi les autorités coloniales: avaient réussi à briser Kimbangu: mais sa pensée: a brisé leur chaines/ le catéchis te Mukongo apparait aujourd'hui: comme un veritable martyr/ la secte religieuse protestance: protestante pardon: qu'il n'a aquis après son arrestation: d'abord dans la clandestinité: puis au grand jour: s'érige aujourd'hui: aah: une grande église chrétienne/ et ses nombreux adeptes: considèrent Kimbangu comme un prophète/ nombreux: sont les Africains qui avaient tempté de créer: des mouvements politico-religieux à Kinshasa/ ou ailleurs/ dans notre pays/ mais aucun d'eux n'avait reçu... [passage skipped?]: on se souviendra: d'un certain John Panda/ qui dans les années vingt publiait déjà dans les journaux de Kinshasa des écrits absolummement révolutionnaires/ même celui là est tombé dans l'oubli/ F: bon/ |
32. To get back to "helping" with this, God gave you whatever knowledge you have. A sick person would come to him and he [Kimbangu] would pray to God, and he would be healed. He would get to a village and meet a person who had broken [a limb] and help him up. Alright, the whites saw that this man's knowledge was great, right? And that this could not go on, right? So they were planning to get rid of him. Permit me -- because I have this piece of paper with me -- to read to you the entire part that is about his tribulations, also about his birth. It explains to us his history, and you are going to understand it. But I am going to read it in French. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. [Reads from a newspaper cutting in French]: "He was born in the place Kamba, on the left shore of the Sankuru, in the region of the cataracts whose administrative center was Thysville, now Banza Ngungu. His date of birth is given around 1881. Kimbangu did not know his mother who had died soon after his birth. He was brought up by an aunt who was a member of the Baptist church and linked to the protestant mission at Ngombe Lutete where Kimbangu went to elementary school. Being a remarkable orator, he became a catechist. This is the beginning of his religious vocation. In 1913 Kimbangu married Maria Wilu and had three children with her: Kisolo Kieda, Ndialungana Kiangani, and Ndiangenda. The latter is today the spiritual leaders of the Kimbangist church. When he exercised his functions, Kimbangu often had to confront sorcerers, healers, and traditional chiefs, even the simple villager to whom he preached. All saw in him above all the wayward brother, sold to the white man, and some one who wanted to destroy their traditional values. But his preaching was so convincing and authoritative that he ended up converting them. Kimbangu fascinated people. They soon believed that he was sent, an envoy from God, a prophet. He was even said to have worked wonders such as healing the sick, and raising the dead. By the thousands, sick people left their villages that often were several days' marching away, just to see Kimbangu. Obviously, his success drew the hostility of the colonial administration and the Catholic church. In the month of June, 1921, Kimbangu is arrested, but managed to escape during the scuffle that followed his arrestation. From that time on he pursued his work in secret. A search is out on him during two months, two months of glory that confirmed his reputation as a prophet. On September 1, 1921 Kimbangu turns himself in to the colonial authorities. One hundred and twenty-four persons are arrested together with him. The caravan of prisoners, who were full of dignity and pride and were singing hymns, was conducted to Thysville. The next morning it was like a holiday. On October 3, 1921 Kimbangu was tried by a military court, together with twelve of his disciples. Accused of crimes against the security of the state, he is given the death penalty. Leopoldville ordered that the execution be suspended waiting for a decision from Brussels which arrived in the month of November. Taking into account the fundamentally religious nature of the movement and the total absence of violence and murder associated with the prophet it appeared that a life prison sentence was more equitable and convenient. Soon after Kimbangu is transferred... [aside to me] It's [almost] finished."21 F: Mm-hmm. T: [resumes reading] "...transferred to the famous central prison of Elisabethville which had the honor to house many Africans with progressive ideas. Special precautions were taken to prevent [Kimbangu] from continuing his work. In sum, he was forbidden to preach the word of God. Since he was considered a heretic, it was decided to convert him to Catholicism before his death which came after thirty years in prison. Kimbangu accepted the baptism of the Roman church from the hands of Abbé ?Sankoto. Thus the colonial authorities had managed to break Kimbangu. But his thought broke their chains. This K ongo catechist appears today as a veritable martyr. The protestant sect that became his only after his arrest, first in secret, then publicly, today has the standing of a great Christian church, and its many follower consider Kimbangu a prophet. Many are the Africans who tried to create politico-religious movements in Kinshasa or elsewhere in our country. But none had received ... [passage skipped?]. A certain John Panda is remembered who, in the twenties, already published absolutely revolutionary writings in the papers of Kinshasa. But that one is forgotten." F: Alright. |
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33. T: voilà ni sawa vile minakuelezea histoire ya Kimbangu ni vilevile: tableau ya pili [Painting 26: Simon Kimbangu and John Panda in Prison]/ F: mm/ ah: ule ulisoma sasa: [aside] nazani na: ina : tuko na mwisho ya bande hapa/ non: kiloko kinabakia/ T: kiloko kinabakia eeh? F: aah/ T: ni yote mbili: [shows this and the preceding side by side] F: yote mbili/ T: naifwata mambo yake: eh/ F: kumbe: ile histoire ya Kimbangu: inam: T: inamalizika/ F: ile ya pili ...?... T: voilà na Panda: F: ya mpili/ T: bon/ F: aah: John Panda/ T: aah John Panda/ F: aah/ John Panda/ John Panda...[long pause] T: bon/ F: John Panda: |
33. T: Now, as I am explaining to you the history of Simon Kimbangu [takes up next painting] there is also a second picture [Painting 26: Simon Kimbangu and John Panda in Prison]. F: Mm-hmm. Let me see, what you just read [aside] -- I think we are at the end of the tape, no, there is a little left. T: There is a little left? F: Yes. T: In both of them [shows this and the preceding picture side by side] F: Both of them. T: I followed his tribulations. Yes. F: Then this history of Kimbangu is now... T: ...finished. F: The second one ...?... T: Here he is together with Panda. F: The second one. T: Alright. F: Ah, John Panda. T: Yes, John Panda. F: I see. John Panda. John Panda... [ long pause] T: Alright. F: John Panda. |
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34. T: bon/ ilikuwa vile: sawa vile sasa tunabakia bule: nazania: mu mille huit: mu: mu mille neuf cent quarante et un/ le vingt et un juin: Kinshasa: ilijulikana kama ville/ na: mu: baliweka monument ya: Léopold deux [Painting 27: The Monument to Leopold II]/ F: mm/ T: wazungu/ na walitosha: ile bintu yetu yote/ sawa maoeuvres yetu: eeh: ma: maoeuvres yetu tout court: sawa mastatues: tout ça: yote ilitupwa/ na ilibebwa: na ku?niengeni/ na balituelezea kama: hii bitu munaweka: ni madawa/ hapana kuitika iko bintu ya bule/ eeh? tutaweka mamonuments yetu: F: mm/ T: iko kitu muzuri/ na sawa masanamu ya Maria: et tout ça: iko kintu ya bien kabisa/ kwa kufwata: tuliona monument ya: Léopold deux: iliweka mu Kinshasa: wakati la kufa: ku Bruxelles: ku: ile wakati anaruga na: na farasi/ F: mm/ T: aah: ?sawa iko muntu anamupata mafarasi: F: farasi? T: ah farasi ya yake ile: F: mm/ T: ya kukaka5 nayo: ilikuwa kama ni ndani ya: zimu ya maji/ F: mm/ T: na alikufaka/ na walisema sawa alikuwa roi du Congo: batakamata: bataweka/ na ile ya Banza Kongo: ilipotea: kwa lote: akukuwe monument: akukuwe nini: apana/ njo minasema kama [reads from painting] Léopoldville furent instaurée le vingt et un juin dix neuf cent septante et un/ F: mm/ |
34. What happened was that we now had nothing left. I think it was on June 21, 1941, that Kinshasa was recognized as a town and they erected the monument of Leopold II [Painting 27: The Monument to Leopold II]. F: Mm-hmm. T: The whites [did that], and they did away with everything we had created, our works -- how shall I say, well, just our works, such as statues and all that -- everything was thrown out and carried away ...?... We were told, "These objects you use [you think] are magic charms. Don't believe in them; they are useless. You understand? We are going to erect our monuments. F: Mm-hmm. T: That is something good. And things like statues of Mary, all that is very good." So then we saw the monument of Leopold II, which was put up in Kinshasa at the time when he died in Brussels, while he was horse-jumping. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, some one presented him with horses. F: Horses? T: Yes, that horse of his. F: Mm-hmm. T: It rolled over with him. It happened in a pool of water. F: Mm-hmm. T: And he died. And they said that they were going put up [his monument] because he was the king of the Congo. But Banza Kongo's [memory] was completely lost, there was no monument, no nothing. So I say Léopoldville was established on June 21, 1971 [sic].22 F: Mm-hmm. |
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35. T: ah bon/ et puis [Painting 28: Victims of the Miners' Strike]: mu wakati tena ile: kulikuwa: watu: Gécamines inaisha kwanza kutumika depuis dix neuf cent et six nalisema ku ile tableau eh? F: mm/ T: bon/ ilikuwa na wantu wa kazi/ wantu wa kazi walikuwa wantu weusi/ na wazungu vilevile/ watu wa kazi wa Gécamines: waliwaua: mu le neuf décembre: dix neuf cent quarante et un/ pa Lubumbashi/ balibaua mille neuf cent quarante et un apa Lubumbashi/ juu walikatala kazi: balikatala kazi: kwa kutaka wawaongezee: franga: yao/ na ile franga ilikuya cinquante centimes: balilombaka juu ya kuba: ongezee/ na watu wa kazi: waliweza: kusumbulia: na chef: du camp/ mm? F: mm/ T: balisumbuliaka na chef du camp: ule chef du camp alikuwa monsieur Temperville/ Temperville/ F: mm/ T: kusema kwangu/ F: mm/ T: kisha waliitwa: ku: kiwanza/ na ile kiwanza: ni ya: aina stade: Albert: non/ ni: ni kiwanza ya Gécamines/ bon/ pale banaisha kwenda ku nyumba sasa/ F: mm/ T: balibaita: eeh: le neuf décembre quarante et un/ ku kiwanza ya football/ ku mbele ya gouverneur: Maron/ F: mm/ T: mbele ya gouver: ya gouverneur Maron: balibaita: mukuye gouverneur anaita: Maron/ sawa vile watu walifanya kichwa nguvu: na kukatala kazi: na bwana Maron: sawa vile bantu balikatala kazi: asema non atuweza natumika sawa paka wanatuongezea makuta/ F: mm/ T: bon: ali: kulikuwa muntu moja: jina yake alikuya: Mpoyi/ F: mm/ T: ah ule Mpoyi: njo alishimamia bale bantu bote sawa représentant/ alisema: mais bo banakatala kazi ni juu ya vile baongezea makuta/ monsieur Maron alitosha bunduki/ F: mm/ T: na kupika: bwana Mpoyi/ na Mpoyi alikufa: paka pale/ gouverneur Ma: Maron: ni yeye: alileta ruhusa kwa wasoldats ya Force Publique/ yaleta ruhusha kwa soldats wa Force Publique: juu baue bale bantu balikuwa ku: kiwanza/ na balibaua: bote eh? F: mm/ T: na: kuwaua kuwaua tu/ ilikuwa: masikilizano ya wa: kubwa ya Union Minière: na wale wa religion/ mm? wa confirmation ni kwa vile Monseigneur Hemptinne/ Jean Hemptinne/ F: mm/ T: na yeye: alijua ile: maneno/ F: mm/ T: alikuwa nayee ku maréunions ya kusema kama: babaue bale bantu/ na balibaua mu le neuf décembre dix neuf cent: quarante et un/ voilà/ F: oui oui/ njo mwisho ya Gécamines: [rummaging with tape recorder] T: et puis: |
35. Alright. And then [Painting 28: Victims of the Miners' Strike], also at that time, there were people -- the Gécamines had been operating ever since 1906, as I said in this other painting, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: Right. It employed workers, and the workers were black people as well as whites. They killed workers of the Gécamines here in Lubumbashi on December 9, 1941, because they had gone on strike. They went on strike because they wanted a raise. The money involved was fifty cents. They kept asking for a raise. And the workers managed to speak with the compound manager, you understand? F: Mm-hmm. T: They had talks with the compound manager. This compound manager was a Mr. Temperville, Temperville. F: Mm-hmm. T: That's how I pronounce it. F: mm. T: Then they were summoned to a stadium, not the Albert stadium, but the Gécamines stadium. Alright, [the way it was] they had gone home to their houses [in the compound]. F: Mm-hmm. T: They summoned them to the soccer field on December 9, 1941, [to appear] before Governor Maron. F: Mm-hmm. T: Before Governor Maron. They summoned them: "Come, Governor Maron is calling." The people remained firm and refused to [go back to] work. And Mr. Maron [found] that the people refused to work. "No," [they said] "we won't work unless we are given raise." F: Mm-hmm. T: Now, there was one man, his name was Mpoyi. F: Mm-hmm. T: This Mpoyi stood up on behalf of all the people, he was their representative. He spoke: "They are striking because they want them to come up with a raise." Mr. Maron pulled a gun. F: Mm-hmm. T: And shot Mr. Mpoyi. Mpoyi died right there. It was Governor Maron who gave the soldiers of the Force Publique permission, he gave permission to the soldiers of the Force Publique to kill the people who were in the stadium. And they killed all of them, you understand? F: Mm-hmm. T: They just massacred them. There had been an understanding between the bosses of the Union Minière and the religious leaders, you understand? The go-ahead for this was given by Monseigneur Hemptinne, Jean Hemptinne. F: Mm-hmm. T: He was informed of this matter. F: Mm-hmm. T: He had participated in the meetings where [they decided] to kill those people. And they killed them on December 9, 1941. There you are. F: Yes, yes. So that is the end [of the story of] Gécamines [rummaging with tape recorder] T: And then... |
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36. F: ah: sasa: nipindule mbele:...njo ngambo ingine/ T: aah/ F: ngambo ingine: tutaweza kuendelea sasa: |
36. F: Ah, let me first turn [the tape]. That's the other side. T: Aha. F: Now we can go on with the other side. |
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37. T: tena: kulikuwa wakati moja: ina: inaanza? F: mm/ T: kulikuwa wakati moja: ba: Italiens/ baItaliens: puisque wakati ile: baBelges balibamba Congo: eh? F: mm/ T: baPortugais balikuwa tamaa na: kusema tuingie: chef mu Congo/ wa: banani: baAllemands balikuwa na besoin: tuingie mu Congo/ waItaliens nabo balikuwa besoin: tuingie mu Congo/ bon: balikuya ku: fanya bugomvi: ku mipaka: ya Congo/ bon: kisha kufanya bugomvi ile: sawa vile nalikuelezea kama ni mambo banaanza kusema/ |
37. T: Furthermore, there was the time -- is it running? F: Yes. T: There was a time when the Italians [but let me go back and say] at that time the Belgians were holding the Congo hostage. F: Mm-hmm. T: The Portuguese had this desire: "Let's get into the Congo and be its rulers." Who else? The Germans yearned to invade the Congo. The Italians also felt the need: "Let's invade the Congo." Alright, so they came to make trouble at the borders of the Congo. |
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38. bon: kisha kufanya bugomvi: nazania ba: bae: ba: ba: ba: ba: Belges: F: mm/ T: balituma basoldats ya: Force Publique/ mukakombanishe bale batu: abaweze kupima kuingia ata/ ni kweli: ule alianza kubatuma: ule alianza kubatumia sauti: alikuya: Kamakanda [Painting 29: The Colonial Army Victorious]/ alituma sauti: nazania balipikana kabisa kabisa/ kiisha kupikana balikataza mvita eh? asema kama muache sasa mvita: tukule/ sawa vile: ni ku bazungu: kama beko banakombana: bataweza kuacha mvita: banasema bakule bapumuzike tena: tutaanza: F: mm/ T: mvita/ bon: kwetu sheye: hatukombanake vile/ kama tunasema mvita: ni mvita/ hata kula: apana: wala nini/ ao kufa na njala utakufa?ko na bunduki/ bon/ Kamakanda: balimuelezea kama: sasa: kuacha mvita: juu: bazungu banatafuta kula: tukom: eeh: tu: kisha vita tutakombana/ bon: saa ya kula: Kamak: saa ya kula: Kamakanda alibeba bunduki: na basoldats yake: eh? kwenda kupika: bazungu/ na: aliuaka bazungu bote: ya Italiens: na mvita iliisha: ku mipaka: ya Congo/ bon: kisha mvita kuisha: nazania: Kamakanda alirudia/ na victoire: mu Congo/ bon/ balimuelezea Kamakanda kama: balimupa félicitation d'abord/ alikalaka kwake/ F: mm/ T: kisha kuikala kwake: balikuwa kumubebaka/ bon asema kama: sawa vile ulikombana nguvu: na kutosha damu mingi: jashu mingi: bon: tutaku: tutaku: soigner eh? ...?... mafaa matraitements: F: mm/ T: batamu: patia madawa: juu ya kupumuzika/ na balimutwangaka Kamakanda sindano: Kamakanda alikufaka/ balimuaka kwa sindano/ |
38. When they had started trouble it was the Belgians, I believe -- as I explained to you these are things the were talking about -- F: Mm-hmm. T: They sent their soldiers of the Force Publique: "Engage those people in battle, they must by now means be allowed to try and invade [the country]." The truth is that the one who took command and gave them orders was Kamakanda [Painting 29: The Colonial Army Victorious]. He gave orders, and they fought a fierce battle, I think. After fighting for a while they stopped the war, you understand? "Stop the war now," it was said, "let's eat." That is how it is with the whites. When they fight each other they may stop the war and tell (their soldiers) to eat and have a rest, and then [they say]: "Let's start again." F: Mm-hmm. T: "With the war." Here we don't fight each other that way. When we say war, it's war. There is no eating, nothing. [No talk about] dying from hunger. You are going to die by the gun. Alright, they told Kamakanda to stop the war now because the whites wanted to eat. "After that," [they said], "we will fight again." Alright, but when it was time to eat, Kamakanda took his gun and his soldiers, you understand? He went to shoot the whites and he killed all the whites, the Italians, and that was the end of the Congolese border war. Alright, I think when the war was over, Kamakanda returned as a victor to the Congo. Alright. They told Kamakanda --well, first they congratulated him. He was staying at home. F: Mm-hmm. T: He stayed at home, and then they came to take him away. Alright. "Because you fought so hard and lost a lot of blood and sweat we will care for you," you understand? ...?... he needed [medical] treatment. F: Mm-hmm. T: They were going to give him medicine so he could rest. They gave Kamakanda an injection and Kamakanda died. They just killed him with an injection. |
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39. na kisha kufa kwa Kamakanda: bale basoldats balikombana ile mvita/ parmi mingi: balikuwa baTetela/ sawa wakati ile baTetela njo baliingiaka mu bu: F: mm/ T: soldat/ bon: balionaka: mubaya/ F: mm/ T: baliona mubaya: na walitombokaka/ balifanya révolte/ la révolte baTetela [Painting 30: The Tetela Revolt]/ kisha kufanya révolte: balipikana: na bale basoldats bengine balikuwa ngambo ya bazungu: na bazungu benyewe/ balipikanaka nguvu kabisa na kuuwana: na: kuuwana/ ilikuwa révolte baTetela/ F: mm/ T: na kuuwana/ ilikuwa juu ya: s: ba: soldats: na mufano ile baliikala: abakukuwe: beko nabatraiter kama: batu/ mu armée/ F: mm/ T: balibaona: kama sawa nyama tuseme/ |
39. After Kamakanda's death [this is what happened]. Among the soldiers who had fought that war, many were Tetela. At that time the Tetela tended to join the [the Force Publique]. F: Mm-hmm. T: To become soldiers. Alright. They considered that [what happened to Kamakanda] was bad. F: Mm-hmm. T: They considered it bad and they exploded and staged a mutiny, the Tetela mutiny [Painting 30: The Tetela Revolt]. They revolted and fought the other soldiers who took the side of the whites, as well as the whites themselves. They fought each other ferociously and killed each other. They killed each other. That was the Tetela mutiny. F: Mm-hmm. T: They killed each other. It was about the conditions in which the soldiers lived. In the army they did not treat them as human beings. F: Mm-hmm. T: Let's just say they regarded them as animals. |
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40. et puis: tuko..?...un instant/ F: mm/ T: bon/ siku kidogo: ilikuwa: kutembea: sasa Belge anaikala mu Zaire ni Congo Belge/ F: mm/ T: bon: siku kidogo kulikuwa kutembea kwa Prince Charles [Painting 31: Prince Charles Visits the Congo]/ mu mille neuf cent quarante sept/ kisha: mu mille neuf cent quarante sept/ mbele yake: ilitembea: eh: Prince: eh: ilitembea Prince Léopold/ Léopold le future roi/ F: mm/ T: eh? kisha ya Albert kufa: yee njo alikuwa sultani/ mu mille neuf cent vingt cinq: Prince Léopold alitembea/ mu mille neuf cent vingt huit: roi Albert: na reine Elisabeth: walitembea mu Congo/ mu mille neuf cent quarante sept: eeh: Léopold: eeh quoi: Charles Prince Régent alitembea mu: mu Congo/ kisha kufika: kufika kwake: Prince Régent alisemaka/ sawa vile minakuya mi: mu: mu Congo/ naizania: si: kumutaya namna gani: alikuwa na ulema6 wa dicho/ alikuwaka na dicho moja/ F: mm/ T: yake ya kilema/ alisema sawa vile minafika mu Congo: inapashwa: na mimi vilevile kama niko mu ile nkundi: inapashwa mutoto wote ule anazaliwa mu mille neuf cent quarante sept: bamukamate: vile katoto: bamutoshe: dicho/ wote ule anazaliwa/ bon: kulala kwangu mi hivi minafika: F: mm/ T: yapashwa bakate muntu yote mweushi: nywele ya [chuckle]: ya ku kichwa/ eeh? bakate nywele: apana muntu wote kwa lakini: mais muntu ule ata: buingi ya nywele ?itaweza kupatikana/ F: mm/ T: baingishe mu matelas: njo nitalala/ bon volilà: parlément Belge: ilikatalaka/ aseama aiwezikane/ uko roi: uko sultani: vilevile: mais: haiwezikane kukamata: muntu/ F: mm/ T: sawa wee: kumutosha dicho: na ni mutoto/ mutoto mwanaume wote alisema: asema mwanamuke hapana/ banamutosha apana/ ile bulema yako: ilikuwa yako/ na shee atutaweza kufwata bale muntu alizaliwa: ule Mungu: muntu alituma: Mungu alituma muzima: abakie: muzima/ Prince Charles alirudia: ku Belgique/ mm? |
40. After that... [aside] just a moment. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. Not long after that, there was the [royal] tour. Now the Belgians had settled in Zaire, that is, the Belgian Congo. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. Not long after that came the tour Prince Charles [made of the Congo]. [Painting 31: Prince Charles Visits the Congo] This was in 1947. Then -- yes, it was in 1947. Before that there had been the tour made by Prince Leopold, Leopold the future King. F: Mm-hmm. T: You understand, after Albert had died he was the ruler. In 1925 Prince Leopold traveled. In 1928 King Albert and Queen Elisabeth traveled in the Congo. In 1947, Leopold, or rather Albert, the Prince Regent, traveled in the Congo. When he arrived, the Prince Regent made a speech: "I came to the Congo." I think he had, how shall I call it, a deformity in one eye. One of his eyes. F: Mm-hmm. T: Had a deformity. So he said, "[To mark] my trip to the Congo, the order should be given that every child born in 1947" -- I myself also belong to this group -- "should be picked up and this baby should have one eye removed. Every [child] born [in 1947]." Alright. "Now that I am here, this is how I am going to sleep. F: Mm-hmm. T: It is ordered that every black man have the hair on his head cut off [chuckle]." You understand? They should cut the hair, not everyone though; only those who could be found to have a lot of hair. F: Mm-hmm. T: "They should stuff it into a mattress and I am going to sleep [on it]." Alright, what happened was that the Belgian Parliament refused [to go along with this]. It stated: "That is impossible. You are the king, and you are the ruler. But it cannot be allowed to pick up a human being. F: Mm-hmm. T: Someone like you, and have his eye removed, [especially not if] it is a child" -- he had talked of all the boys, not the girls; they would not have to have an eye removed. "This deformity you have, it was you who got it. And we cannot go after those [children]. A person who was born, a person whom God sent, without a fault, should remain whole and healthy." Prince Charles went back to Belgium, right? |
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41. ni vile mu mille neuf cent cinquante cinq: F: mm/ T: [takes up next painting] le roi: Baudouin: sa majesté le roi Baudouin: alikuya mu: Congo [Painting 32: King Baudouin Visits the Congo]/ F: mm/ T: bon: kufika kwa roi: des Belges: na mi naliona/ ilikuwa mille neuf cent cinquante cinq: nalikuwa mu première année/ primaire/ njo pale alifikaka/ F: hapa? T: aah/ mu Cong: mu Shaba: mu Jadotville eh? F: eyo/ T: wakati ile: ilikuwa Likasi/ F: mm/ T: na mi balinipaka drapeau: ku mukono/ F: mm/ T: ni mi minamulamukiaka/ nalionaka alikuwaka na voiture mweushi: kwa kufika kwake: alishukaka mbele pa nyumba ya Mungu: banamusalimia: na vile alikwenda ku centre: ya ku commune sasa/ bon/ kufika kwa roi Baudouin: alikuwa: alipelekwaka na: Petillon: alikuwa gouverneur général/ |
41. Thus, in 1955... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... King Baudouin, His Majesty King Baudouin, came to the Congo [Painting 32: King Baudouin Visits the Congo]. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. When the king of the Belgians arrived I was an eyewitness. It was in 1955, I was a first grader in elementary school, that was when he came. F: Here? T: Yes, here to the Congo, or rather in Shaba, at Jadotville. right? F: I see. T: That is what Likasi was called at that time. F: Mm-hmm. T: And they put a flag into my hand. F: Mm-hmm. T: I kept cheering him. I saw him coming in a black car, and when he arrived he got out in front of the church. They greeted him, and then he went to the center of the township. Alright. When King Baudouin arrived he was accompanied by Petillon who was the Governor General. |
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42. bon kisha kupelekwa kwake: alipokelewa bien: na yeye aliwazaka: mawazo muzuri/ alisema: [Painting 33: King Baudouin Giving a Speech] F: mm/ T: aah: bandugu yangu: nazania: F: mm/ T: miaka ya: busultani ya ba: Kongomani: inenea/ ile balibakatia kuko: nkambo yetu/ Léopold deux/ sawa vile inenea: bon: sina mufano ingine ya kufanya: tutaweza kubapatia: indépendance yabo/sawa vile mwe muna: balikatala7/ asema bon: sawa vile munatamani kama: F: mm/ T: atuweze kubapa indépendence eh? bon/ nitaweza kumielezea hivi/ kumbe: muitike/ mukule: na bale bantu/ ku mahôtels: sani8: huyu na sani na sani: ao sani moja: mukunywe nawo pamoya: kamata bibi yako: bacheze/ c'est que: ababakie: abafanye asema kama huyu anakuya bibi ya abaizini apana/ F: mm: abai? T: abai: abaizini/ F: mm/ T: abalalane apana/ F: mm/ T: c'est que: ni kucheza tu/ F: mm/ T: ça danse eh? F: mm: ndiyo/ T: bacheze/ bon: bakule na mwee pamoya/ sasa bataona kama: c'est vrai: tuko bien: akuna kintu hata moja/ bon: sasa: nani: baBelges: balisema: oooh ça: non/ atuweze kula pamoja na muntu mweusi: kunywa pamoja: ou bien kucheza pamoja na yee: tunakatala kabisa kabisa/ F: mm/ T: kweli asema eeh/ nazania anafika: pa ile: tableau: ni ya mwisho [Painting 35: Petillon Giving a Speech]: na kuko wakati: alituma: nitaweza kuendelea kuko wakati alituma Petillon: pale alikwenda ku Belgique: alimutuma Petillon asema ukabelezee eh? F: mm/ T: bafanye ile kintu naibelezea/ kama banafanya vile: comme ça bale bantu habatajua indépendance: ni nini/ [claps his hands] batawazia kama: ni furaha sawa vile tuko nacheza: kunywa: aah c'est fini: tuko indépendance que voulez vous/ bon: bote na bali: kamata tomato hii: kwa mupika: Petillon: na kumufukuza kama: tunakatala/ [claps his hands] et puis njo: F: waBelges? T: ah oui balipikaka Petillon tomato/ humu mu Lubumbashi tena/ kumufukuza asema: kwenda ukumuambie ule roi wenu: tunakatala/ shee tuko humu: Gécamines: iko: nani: un gouvernement dans un gouvernement/ iko l'état/ c'est fini tunakatala ile mambo/ F: mm/ |
42. He was shown around by him and was well received. And he had ideas that were good. He spoke [Painting 33: King Baudouin Giving a Speech]. F: Mm-hmm. T: My brothers, I think. F: Mm-hmm. T: Enough years have gone by. Time has come for the people of the Congo to have the sovereignty returned to them, [the sovereignty] that was taken away by our ancestor, Leopold II. Because that time has come no, the only thing I can do is give them their Independence. You have been expecting this." F: Mm-hmm. T: But they refused. [The king continued], "I can put it to you like this: We cannot give them Independence, right? Therefore, listen to me: you should eat together with those people, in the hotels, each from his plate or from one plate; you should drink together with them. Take your wife and let her dance with them. This does not mean that they should sleep together. F: Mm-hmm. What is this?23 T: Abaizini. F: Mm-hmm. T: They should not sleep together. F: Mm-hmm. T: It meant just dance [together]. F: Mm-hmm. T: Dancing, right? F: Mm-hmm, yes. T: They should dance. Alright, they should eat together with you. Then they will see that everything is alright and that there is nothing [between you and them]." Alright. The Belgians said: Oh no, about that, no, we cannot eat together with a black person, drink or dance together with him. We refuse categorically." F: Mm-hmm. T: [" Do you really mean it?" they said]. And he said: "I do." I think he24 came now to this last painting #[Painting 35: Petillon Giving a Speech]. And that was the time -- I anticipate [what is to follow], if I may -- the time when he, after his return to Belgium, sent Petillon to explain this to them, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: "They should do what I explained to them. When they do this those people won't know what Independence means. [Claps his hands] They will think: What a joy to be dancing and drinking, so this is it, what [more] do you want?" Alright. They all picked up tomatoes and threw them at Petillon and chased him away saying: "We refuse." [claps his hands] And then... F: ... the Belgians? T: Yes, indeed, they pelted Petillon with tomatoes. Even here in Lubumbashi. They chased him away saying: "Go away and tell that king of yours that we refuse. We here are the Gécamines. This is a government within a government, this is the State. That's it, we are against all this." F: Mm-hmm. |
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43. T: et puis nazinia kama ulikuwa tableau ingine nilitaka kuelezea: [chuckles] namna ilikuya mufano yeye alirudia: F: ndiyo/ T: na mufano gani Lumumba alipata kufika mu Ghana: F: mm/ T: kwa Kwame Krumah: cinquante: eeh: F: ile tutaendelea: T: aah/ F: tutendelea naye: tutendelea naye/ F: ni yote yote ile nalikuwa nayo: ya kuweza kukuelezea/ mm? F: kumbe njo mwisho ya: ya kipande ya: T: ya kipande ya kwanza/ F: kwanza/ très bien/ T: ahah/ |
55. And then, if there was another painting I would like to tell you [chuckles] what happened when he returned [to Belgium?]. F: Yes. T: And how Lumumba managed to go to Ghana. F: Mm-hmm. T: To Kwame Krumah, in '50, ah... F: We'll go on with that. T: Yes. F; We'll go on with that, we'll go on with that. T: I still have all this I can explain to you, right? F: So this is the end of chapter... T: ... of chapter one. F: Chapter one. Very good. T: Yes. |
1 'lu-sambo (n): fil métallique, fil d'archal (laiton)." Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 568. [back to main text] 2 See Standard Swahili dictionary, -sulika, feel dizzy. [back to main text] 3 I make him repeat the name. [back to main text] 4 Kwa ajili in ECS. [back to main text] 5 Probably from ECS gaagaa, "roll from side to side ... as an animal wallowing on the ground." [back to main text] 6 Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 348: ki-lema...: difformité, déformation...' [back to main text] 7 A proleptic statement, running ahead of the sentence. [back to main text] 8 Should be sahani. The a sounds long, so could be hypercorrection by deleting intervocalic h. [back to main text] |
1 The original has what looks like a doublet: kula / kumanger (and would in that case not require translation by two terms). The context suggests that T. wants to stress civilized eating. [back to main text] 2 An example of a "false start", in this case repaired without remarks of hesitation. [back to main text] 3 The local form of East Coast Swahili ugali. [back to main text] 4 The original has histoire sainte. German has an equivalent (Heilige Geschichte). I cannot find one in English. In the Congo, this was the designation for abbreviated and illustrated editions of the Bible used in schools. [back to main text] 5 The original has a plural (bale batoto) but the context requires, and local usage permits, a translation in the singular. [back to main text] 6 Could also have the weaker meaning: The one who had seen him first. [back to main text] 7 The original has an ambiguous preposition here (mbele). It could be spatial or temporal. It seems that T. inverts the sequence of Old and New Testament. The latter is foundational to him, hence it is placed mbele. [back to main text] 8 The original prefixes Balthasar with a plural ba-, another example of the local usage noted above. [back to main text] 9 Literally "father," but here and elsewhere untranslated as a term of respect. [back to main text] 10 The underlined phrases (in this case, the first one is incomprehensible) are an example of a rhetorical convention. A speaker begins a work or sentence which are then are partially repeated and/or completed by the listener(s). [back to main text] 11 The chuckles seems to announce the parody or mockery of the president's words (through inversion) that follows. [back to main text] 12 I make him repeat the name. [back to main text] 13 The original bana-ka-fukuza (instead of the expected bana-mu-fukuza) seems to have the diminuitive -ka- as an object-infix. It could be translated as "they chased away the little one." [back to main text] 14 Something intrudes, but it is no longer possible to determine what it was. [back to main text] 15 This sort of aside occurs several times during these conversations. T. reacts verbally to something material in the painting -- a fault, a dirty or wet spot, etc. [back to main text] 16 Again an aside or short interruption related to manipulating a painting. [back to main text] 17 Notice that this episode of the narrative (and others to follow), clearly marked as such, is not "illustrated" by a painting. [back to main text] 18 "They" is a weak translation of wenyewe which could something like "the ruler/owner." [back to main text] 19 This is an attempt to render the plural tuburi in the original. [back to main text] 20 The brief exchange that follows was prompted by kumula, a form I did not understand right away. [back to main text] 21 From the context it is clear that this aside does not refer to the text but the tape that is about to run out, see below. [back to main text] 22 An obvious mistake; 1941 is inscribed on the picture. [back to main text] 23 I did not understand the expression abaizini, they should not commit adultery. [back to main text] 24 This is the grammatical person used in the original -- as if Baudouin had come to this point in the series. [back to main text] |
Van Avermaet, E. and B. Mbuya. (1954). Dictionnaire kiluba - français. Tervuren: Musée Royale de l'Afrique Centrale.
A Standard Swahili dictionary. (1939). Oxford: Oxford University Press.
© Transcript & Translation by Johannes Fabian
Archived: 11 November 1998
Revisions: 12 May 1999, 18 May 1999 (layout), 23 August 2001 (lay-out of toc
changed, APS Volume number added), 31 October 2001 (ISSN added)
