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TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE Second Session of October 25, 1974 Explanations 2 |
TSHIBUMBA, HISTOIRE DU ZAIRE Second Session of October 25, 1974 Explanations 2 |
| 1. F: nitafunga hii sasa: tutarudia na matableaux yote: T: ...?... F: na tunaendelea vile: mara ingine maneno niko na mauliza/[sic] T: ...?... ahah/ F: sawa vile tulifanya ile: T: ah/ nitaweza kusikia?.... minasema ii franga uko nauzaka naye bitu ii/ F: aah/ T: paka yako wee moya? F: ndiyo ni paka yangu/ T: yee haitoke: fasi ingine? F: hapana: ni ya: ni yetu tu/ T: ah ah ah ah ah ah... F: kumbe inafaa: twende polepole/ bon/ tulimaliza donc: eh: T: ou bien nitaweza kufansia cinq: cinq? F: non non: fanya tu: fa: ufwate: mawazo yako/ T: aah/ eeh/ F: mm/ ile tunataka: [claps] ile tulilomba: ni histoire complète ya Zaire/ T: kweli eh? F: tena: mu ngambo ingine T: ...?... F: utaweza kufanya tu matableaux matableaux matableaux: non/ ile eko nécessaire: T: iko/ F: oui/ T: ah sawa ile minapanga apa/ F: ile: kila tableau: eko lazima: T: eeh/ F: utafanya/ T: kwa kuona unaona iko na lazima yote hii eh? F: mm/ T: aah/ F: ni ...?... uendelee tu paka kule/ kumbe: tulimaliza: wee ulimaliza: arisi: ya kipande ya pili/ T: ya pili/ F: mm? tulitoka: sawa ku Colonie Belge: fimbo: sawa vile banapika: T: bon/ F: na tulifika: mwisho: protestation des femmes Katangaises/ T: aah/ F: mm? T: bon/ F: kati ya: wakati ya Katanga/ T: mm/ F: sasa: tulifanya sawa vile tulifanya ile: siku ingine: nitaangaria kila: tableau: eh? T: bon/ ça va/ |
1. F: I am going to turn this on now, let's go back to all the paintings. T: ...?... F: And this is how we'll go on because sometimes I have questions. T: ...?..., I see. F: As we did this [other batch of paintings]. T: Ah, could I listen [to the tape]?1....what I am saying is: the money with which you buy these things [his paintings]... F: Yes. T: ...is it just your own? F: Yes, it's just my own. T: It doesn't come from somewhere else? F: No, it's just ours. T: Ah, ah, ah, ah....[incredible] F: So we should go slowly. Alright, we finished -- wait... T: I could also do five[paintings] each time, should I?2 F: No, no, go ahead, just follow your thoughts. T: Ah, alright. F: Mm-hmm. What we want [claps], what we asked for, is the complete history of Zaire. T: Really? F: On the other hand... T: ...?... F: You could go on endlessly painting pictures, no [that is not the idea]. Just to what is necessary. T: Here it is. F: Yes. T: Like those that I lined up here. F: [In this sequence] every painting is needed. T: I see. F: You'll do it. T: When you look at it, you see that everything is as it should be, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: I see. F: It is...?... just go ahead [with that painting] there. So, we finished, or rather you finished with the story of the second part. T: Of the second part. F: Right? We started with the Colonie Belge, where they use the whip. T: Fine. F: And in the end we got to the Katangese women protesting. T: Yes. F: Right? T: Fine. F: The time of [the secession of] Katanga. T: Mm-hmm. F: Now we are going to do it like the other day, I will look at each painting, right? T: Fine, go ahead |
| 2. F: naaa: ah: nitakuuliza [rummages with paintings, walking away from microphone]: mbele: fimbo [picks up Painting 34: Colonie Belge: Under Belgian Rule]/ T: mm/ F: nazani hatuna: mingi ya kusumbulia maneno ...?... tu zamani: T: ah oui/ F: uli: T: isha kuelezea ...?... F: oui ulinielezea/juu ya nini ulichagula terri: territoire: ya Kambove? T: sichagule territoire ya Kambove hapana/ kwa sababu matableaux mingi/ F: eh/ T: ile ilikuwa baati ya tableau kumuuzisha mwee ya territoire ya Kambove/ kuko yaa: Kakanda: eeeh mm: Sakania: Lodja: Matadi: F:mm/ T: materritoires yote tu nazani ya Zaire nitaweza kufanya: p: sawa ilipatikana mule/ F: mm/ T: ao ville/ nitaweza kufanya tu/ F: tena tunaona: territoire hapa: mugini kule/ T: ni kweli/ F: njo mu: njo mugini? T: ile aina mugini: ni camp ya bapoliciers/ F: camp ya bapoliciers/ T: eeh/ F: mm/ T: sababu vile karibu na kazi/ F: na bale ..?... na policiers bo: kila: eko na kazi yake/ T: kila policier iko na kazi yake/ asubui huyu ataweza F: ...?... T: kulamusha bote: lamukeni: saa inenea: F: mm/ T: banalamuka/ F: na huyu? T: ule: eko nafukuza ule mbio: F: mm/ T: anakimbia fimbo: anakimbia buloko/ F: mm/ T: kamata yee: yee iko nakimbia ku pori/ ule njo natosha manguo: ?kusudi1 nayee alale pale eko ku rapport/ bamupikie fimbo/ F: mm/ F: tena: bale banabeba: T: banabeba ile banabeba: ni mavi/ F: mavi? T: eeh/ sababu batu ya buloko eh? F: aah/ T: banawakawa banafunga ku mulango: bananyambaka ndani ya tuku moya/ F: aah/ T: eeh/ kunyamba kule: et puis asubui: kutakuwa batachagula batabeba ile: na kwenda kutupa: F: T.P.M.? T: T.P.M. c'est à dire eh: Travaux: Publiques: ya et Mécanisation/ F: mm/ T: [chuckles] ni vile/ F: na bale wanamuke mbili/ T: banamuke mbili ni banamuke ya batu ya buloko/ sawa vile balileta chakula: ii ni chakula ni kibakudi2 ya chakula: F: mm/ T: ii ni chupa ya maji: F: mm/ T: asema tukabapatie asubui: banakuta bwana beko napika: unaona umu mwenye bwana nabamba mu mukono ku lichafu3 anasikitika/ huyu nayee eko nasikitika: hatujue bwana yake hapa kama ni ule: kama ni ule: F: mm/ T: nayee anasikitika vilevile/ F: mm/ mm/ hapa huyu muzungu: T: na pipe yake iko anakunywa: sawa vile unaona policier na numéro matricule yake: F: mm/ T: sawa mu temps Belge ilikuwa: kila policier na numéro matricule/ F: eyo/ T: kama anakufanya maneno ku njia: wala nakusema leta makuta: unakamata paka numéro matricule: wee unakwenda/ F: mm/ T: bon/ utakwenda kufika kule kwa mukubwa: unapeleka:4 kuko policier moya: unamuyua/ numéro yake yo hii/ batamuita paka yee: banakuya kumusambisha/ F: c'est vrai? T: aah/ |
2. F: Let's see, I am going to ask you [rummages with paintings, walking away from microphone], first about the whip [picks up Painting 34: Colonie Belge: Under Belgian Rule]. T: Mm-hmm. F: I don't think we have a lot to talk about because ...?... long ago.... T: Ah, yes. F: You... T: already explained...?... F: Yes you explained things to me. Why did you decide write "District of Kambove" on the building.? T: It was not a matter of selecting the district of Kambove. There are many of these paintings.... F: Yes. T: ...and it just so happened that I sold to you the one of the district of Kambove. Others are of Kakanda, Sakania, Lodja, Matadi. F: Mm-hmm. F: I could do all the districts or towns of Zaire, because there were prisons in all those places. F: Mm-hmm. T: Or the one in town, I could do that one. F: So we see the building of the district commissioner here and over there a village. T: That is correct. F: I that a village? T: No, that is not a village, it's the police barracks. F: The police barracks. T: Yes. F: Mm-hmm. T: Because it is close to their place of work. F: And those...?...and the policemen, each of them had his work. T: Every policeman had his work. In the morning, one would... F: ...?... T: ... wake up all the prisoners: "Wake up, it is time!" F: Mm-hmm. T: And they would get up. F: And this one? T: He is pursuing that prisoner... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... the one who is trying to run away from the flogging and the prison. F: Mm-hmm. T: "Get him" [the policeman shouts], "he is taking to the bush!" Another policeman is making a prisoner undress3 to make sure he is lying down when the roll call comes and he will get his flogging. F: And those there, what are they carrying? T: What they are carrying is shit. F: Shit? T: Yes, because when the people are in prison... F: Yes. T: ... they are made to stay behind locked the doors and they relieve themselves in a vat. F: I see. T: That is where they relieve themselves. Then, in the morning, comes the moment when some of them are picked out to carry the stuff and throw it out. F: [And what is] T.P.M.? T: T.P.M., that is the Public Works and Motor Pool. F: Mm-hmm. T: [chuckles] That's what it is. F: And those two women? T: Those two are the women of prisoners. They are there because they brought food. This is food, a bowl of food. F: Mm-hmm. T: This is a bottle of water. F: Mm-hmm. T: "Let us bring them [a bowl of food and a bottle of water] in the morning," they had said, and then they found the husband of one of them being beaten. You see here his wife as she puts her hand to her cheek, in a gesture of distress. And the other one is sad, too. We don't know which of the prisoners is her husband. F: Mm-hmm. T: But she is sad, too. F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And now to this white man here. T: Smoking his pipe. And then you see the policeman with his badge number. F: Mm-hmm. T: Because, when the Belgians ruled, every policeman had his badge number. F: I see. T: If he caused you trouble on the road, or asked you for money, you would just take down his badge number and go away. F: Mm-hmm. T: Right, you would go to his superior and complain. [You would say] that there is a policeman and that you know him: "This is his badge number." He would be called in and be made to face the charges. F: Really? T: Yes. |
| 3. F: sasa tunafika ku: ile numéro: trente quatre: Pétillon/ [Painting 35: Pétillon Giving a Speech] Pétillon yee mwenyewe/ Pétillon alikuwa nani? T: Pétillon alikuwa Gouverneur Général/ F: Gouverneur Général/ T: mm/ sawa vile chef de l'état/ alikuwa anikala ku: Kinshasa/ F: [reading from painting] à la résidence du premier bourguemestre de la ville de Jadotville/ T: mm bon/ F: njo kule alifika? T: njo kule alifika/ F: hii ni: minaona ile monument ya: T: ile maboules? F: maboules/ T: eeh/ iko napatikana/ kama unatembea ku: Likasi: unaingia mu résidence: ya: premier bourgeme: ya commissaire sou: sousrégional: F: eh/ T: utakutanisha ile/ F: ni quoi? maana yake ni nini? T: non: ilikuwa baBelges baliachaka/ mi sijue kama ni maana yake ni nini/ F: baliyenga wakati gani? T: baliyenga wakati: ile baliyenga ile: F: mm/ T: résidence/ ii ni ya résidence/ F: résidence aah/ T: couleur yake ni vile minaonaka/ F: aah/ T: hii manyumba ile: ni ku mpembeni: puisque lupango ile hapite/ huku ni ku mpembeni: F: mm/ T: ni: uku chini tunataka kama ku Zoute/ kuko Zoute ya Likasi/ F: Zoute? T: eh: kuko: bassin/ F: bassin/ T: bassin aah/ F: ahah/ T: kama unafwata hii njia unapita hii ?mayani: utafika ku route: ku bassin/ ku mukongo ya hii nyumba kuko pilerie: F: mm/ T: na ile: COMEKAT: ya zamani/ F: sasa minaona bazungu banatoka: T: na bitu ku mukono: tomates: F: aah/ T: beko natupa: ingine nafika napasuka ku ya ku pete: ingine ku mukono: F: mm/ T: eeh/ banakatala ile maneno asema tunakatala sana/ atuweze ?...itshika hata/ F: yee alisema nini? T: yee alisema kama: Baudouin alinituma tena/ F: eh/ T: na mambo ile aliniachiaka ile wakati/ F: mm/ T: anapenda mukule na batu: mukunywe: ou bien munakatala tu? F: aah/ T: tubape Indépendance bashi/ F: eeh/ T: yee asema: kama ni vile: toka na hii Indépendance: ou bien na mambo yenyee yote ile: atupende apana/ F: eyo/ T: njo kumupika: nani/ |
3. F: Now we come to number thirty-four4: Pétillon [Painting 35: Pétillon Giving a Speech]. Who was Pétillon? T: He was Governor General. F: Governor General. T: Mm-hmm. Something like head of state, and he lived in Kinshasa. F: [reads from painting] At the residence of the lord mayor of the town of Jadotville. T: Mm-hmm. Right. F: That is where he arrived. T: That is where he arrived. F: I see a kind of monument there. T: Those spheres? F: Spheres. T: Yes. It's still there. If you travel to Likasi and get into the mayor's, sorry, the subregional commissioner's residence, you'll find it. F: Really. T: You'll find it. F: What is it? What is its meaning? T: No idea, it is something the Belgians left behind. I don't know what it means...5 F: When was it built? T: It was built at the same time when they built... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... the residence. It belongs to the residence. F: The residence, I see. T: It's color is as I see it. F: I see. T: These houses are outside, the grounds [of the residence] don't go that far. [The scene] here is on this side [of the enclosure].6 F: Mm-hmm. T: The place down here we call Zoute7, this is the Zoute of Likasi. F: Zoute? T: Yes, there is a swimming pool. F: A swimming pool. T: A swimming pool, yes. F: I see. T: If you follow that footpath, passing that greenery, you come to the road that leads to the swimming pool. Behind those houses is the crushing plant... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... COMEKAT8, as it used to be called. F: Then I see that the Whites have come out. T: And they have things in their hands, tomatoes. F: Aah. T: They are throwing [tomatoes]: one of them has burst on Pétillon's shoulder, another on his arm. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, they categorically reject what he has been telling them, saying: "There is no way we can accept this." F: What did he say? T: He said: "Baudouin has sent me..." F: Yes. T: "... to take care of the matter he left unfinished at the time [when he visited]." F: Mm-hmm. T: "He wants you to eat and drink with the Blacks. Or do you refuse [to do this]? Actually we should give them Independence." F: I see. T: "If that's how it is to be," someone said, then get lost with this Independence and all that. We don't like it." F: Really. T: So then they pelted him with what do you call them [tomatoes]. |
| 4. F: sasa mu trente cinq tunaona: ts: mu: Lumumba: [Painting 36: Lumbumba, Director of a Brewery] T: [reads from painting] directeur: F: directeur: T: de brasserie: F: de Stanleyville/ T: de Stanleyville/ F: ...?... T: ni kweli: iko directeur wa brasserie: F: mm/ T: ile wakati: wakati tulikuwa u: mu butumwa: nazania hata grade ya: bamilitaires: haikupita mu sergeant/ tulikuwa tu basergeants: caporal: c'est fini/ F: mm/ T: njo vile ilikuya tu/ na kama muntu ile wakati grade ile: ni muntu wa akili mingi/ kwa kuenea kuwa général: kwa kuenea kuwa muntu moya wa kitu munene: F: mm/ T: na akukuwa mufano hata moya/ mm/ ...injustice ile: F: ...?... T: njo banasikia: baTetela balitomboka: balifanya karévolte/ na pa lufu ya Kamakanda vilevile/ F: nayee anaikala tu bien/ T: anaikala mu bureau: mukono anaweka pa kiti sawa hivi: kiti: F: mm/ T: mm/ eko anasumbulia: eh: anaikala pardon: eko nacheka: na pose ya kucheka: F: mm/ T: mu mafoto: na mukanda yake ile aliandika pale: anasigner: anawaza kuituma fasi fulani/ na kitabu ya brasserie: ya Congo Belge: F: mm/ T: na mafardes ...?... na téléphone pale:/ na book notes: c'est à dire: kitabu ya: notes/ F: mm/ T: ...?...kukalaka book notes: ni ya book notes: sawa ....?... [chuckles] F: mm/ [chuckles] T: na maenveloppes mbili/ kule ile ni rideau/ ni ku dirisha/ F: ndiyo/ T: inje pale: njo inye usine: kama ni usine ou bien kama ni nini: ya: F: ya brasserie/ T: ya brasserie/ ni usine eh? F: [pointing] tundu moya/ T: ayi/ na tundu ni kal: ni nguo/ F: ni nguo/ T: sawa pa kukota: wee unapenta: yo ina: tokelea tundu: F: [chuckles] T: o làlà/ |
4. F: Now, on number thirty-five, we see Lumumba [Painting 36: Lumumba, Director of a Brewery]. T: [reads from painting] Director. F: Director. T: Of a brewery. F: [continues reading] Of Stanleyville. T: Of Stanleyville. F: ...?... T: It's the truth, he was director of a brewery. F: Mm-hmm. T: In those days, we were slaves. I think, even in the army, nobody reached a rank higher than sergeant. We were sergeants, corporals, and that was it. F: Mm-hmm. T: That is how it used to be. In those days, a person may have been competent to be a general or occupy some position of importance. F: Mm-hmm. T: But there was simply no way. Mm-hmm. It was this sort of injustice... F: ...?... T: ... that made the Tetela rise up and stage their little revolt. And it was also at issue in the death of Kamakanda. F: But he [Lumumba] is well installed. T: He sits in his office, his arm rests on the chair. F: Mm-hmm. T: Mm-hmm. And he is talking and, if you permit, sits there with a smile, in a smiling pose. F: Mm-hmm. T: [As it appears] in photographs. And there is a letter he wrote and signed and is going to sent somewhere. There is the book of the brewery of the Belgian Congo. F: Mm-hmm. T: There are files, a telephone, a note-book, that is a book of notes. F: Mm-hmm. T: ...?...so there are book notes, a book of notes, like ...?... [chuckles]. F: Mm-hmm [chuckles].9 T: And two envelopes. There is a curtain at the window. F: Yes. T: And there, outside, that is the factory, if this is the correct terms, or whatever it is. [The plant] of... F: ... the brewery. T: Of the brewery. It's a factory, right? F: [pointing] There is a hole [in this painting]. T: Oh, a tiny10 hole, its [in] the fabric. F: It's [in] the fabric. T: When you paint, you pull the [the fabric] and then a hole appears. F: [chuckles] T: Sorry about that. |
| 5. voilà: ni ku kiwanza: [Painting 37: Lumumba Meets Kwame Nkrumah] F: sasa: numéro trente six: ni ku kiwanza: T: ni ku kiwanza: ku Ghana: F: ku kiwanza wapi? ku Ghana? T: ku Ghana/ F: mm/ T: sawa sijue drapeau ya Ghana: njo maana sikuweza kuweka apa lakini/ kama nilifahamu kama naliandika/ F: mm/ T: bon/ na vile: banamupokelea: Lumumba/ kuko Kwame Krumah: alikuwa président ile wakati: na kisha yake alikufa mu Guinéa: ...?.../ et puis ule ni mugeni nayee alitoka ku ile avion: iko na sacoche yake: anaandikapo Ghana: anachuka:5 mm/ F: na banakamata: avion de Swissair? T: Swissair/ njo iliweza kutembea ile wakati/ F: mm/ T: sawa ...?... natembea na Sabena: baliweza kufumbula mayele yake ...?... kutembea nayo/ F: aah/ T: Swissair: na sasa hapa inatembeaka vilevile/ kipande yote ya: ya Afrique: orientale ou bien occidentale/ F: mm/ [dog is barking: aside] nazani muntu anafika: T: mm/ F: ...?... T: mm/ F: simama kiloko/ [recording interrupted] |
5. This is on a runway [Painting 37: Lumumba Meets Kwame Nkrumah]. F: Now, number thirty-six, it's on a runway. T: It's on a runway in Ghana. F: Where on a runway, in Ghana? T: In Ghana. F: Mm-hmm. T: Because I don't know the flag of Ghana I could not put it here. Had I know it I would have depicted11 it. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, this is how they received Lumumba. There is Kwame Nkrumah, he was president at the time. Later he died in Guinea ...?... And then there is this other guest getting out of the airplane with his bag inscribed "Ghana." He is deboarding. Mm-hmm. F: They took a Swissair plane? T: Swissair, it was operating at the time. F: Mm-hmm. T: If had gone with Sabena [the Belgian airline], they could have discovered his intentions...?... if he had gone with [Sabena]. F: I see. T: So it was Swissair, they continue to operate today, everywhere in West and East Africa. F: F: Mm-hmm. [A dog is barking, aside:] I think someone is coming. T: Mm-hmm. F: ....?... T: Mm-hmm. F: Wait a minute. [recording interrupted] |
| 6. F: tuendelee na: kama ni numéro: trente sept/ [Painting 38: Kasavubu is Elected Mayor] ni kusema: T: trente sept? F: Kasavubu sasa: anaonekana sawa: bourguemestre/ T: ah anaonekana bourguemestre/ bon: ni wakati ile: ni ya cinquante huit eh? F: mm/ T: sawa nilikuelezea kama mu Likasi: mi nalikuwa mule: mu Likasi: nalionaka mu cinquante huit: baliweka tena bourguemestre moja: Mutonkole Noël/ she wote tulisagaaka: mara ya kwanza kushikia ile maneno/ ni vile sawa unaweza kuuliza/ eko na papier ku mukono: F: mm/ T: mesdames: mesdames et demoiselles: nalijuaka kuni..?... ni changer: mais minasahabu naandika ah? nalikotola/ F: mm/ T: haina maneno ni erreur/ [chuckles] bon/ mesdames mesdemoiselles et monsieurs: ni wakati tuko naita vile: F: mm/ T: ahah/ bon pardon: [takes closer look] nitaweza kuangalia tuko naangaria tu/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ F: njo papier yake? ...?... T: bon: papier yake: F: ya discours? T: ya discours alianza kufanya: unaona batu banacheza: balisagaa kabisa kabisa: F: mm/ T: na furaha mingi: na madrapeaux ya Belge iko napepuka: ii ni caisse d'épargne: manyumba mule ndani: ...?...: ndeke iko ndani ya mbingu: F: commune de Kitambo? T: Kintambo/ F: njo commune gani? T: Kintambo: na sasa iko Kintambo/ F: na Dendale? T: Dendale? banaisha ku?... F: njo hii? T: apana/ Dendale nayee banaisha kuchanger: jina mi sijui/ kama inaisha kuwa Kasavubu/ F: si njo Kasavubu alikuwa bourguemestre de: de Dendale? T: de Dendale? apana/ Kintambo/ F: Kintambo? T: aah/ F: sasa ba: minaona ile: ile nani: T: ni drapeau Belge/ F: drapeau Belge? T: oui/ F: ku revers alikuwa na drapeau Belge? T: oui alivwala: koti eh? F: mm/ T: sababu alikuwa bou: alikuwa bourguemestre wakati ya temps Belge/ F: aah/ T: eeh/ mu temps Belge eeh/ ...?... alikamata kainsigne ya drapeau Belge: anaweka/ F: mm/ |
6. Let's go on with number thirty-seven, isn't it [Painting 38: Kasavubu is Elected Mayor]? T: Thirty seven?12 F: Kasavubu now appears as mayor. T: Yes, Kasavubu appears as mayor. It was in '58, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: As I explained to you, in Likasi -- I was there -- I saw how they appointed a mayor in Likasi, Mutonkole Noël. We all were surprised when we heard of this. That's how it was, you can ask around. He [Kasavubu] holds a piece of paper in his hands. F: Mm-hmm. T: "Ladies and gentlemen" [it started]. I used to know [how it went on] but then I changed, but because I forgot I just drew something that looks like writing.13 F: Mm-hmm. T: It doesn't matter, it was a mistake [chuckles]. Alright. "Ladies and gentlemen." That is how you addressed people in those days. F: Mm-hmm. T: Ah, yes. Excuse me [takes a closer look], we could take a closer look. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. F: This is his paper [manuscript]...?...? T: Right, his paper... T: ... of the speech? T: Of the speech he was about to make. You see the people dancing, they could not believe it. F: Mm-hmm. T: There was great joy and the Belgian flags are fluttering in the wind. Among the buildings there is the Savings Bank, and there are birds in the sky. F: Is this Kitambo township? T: Kintambo. F: Which one is it? T: Kintambo, it still is Kintambo. F: And what about Dendale? T: Dendale, they... F: Isn't that the one? T: No, Dendale, they changed that name but I don't know it. Wasn't it called Kasavubu, finally? F: Wasn't Kasavubu the mayor of Dendale? T: Of Dendale? No, Kintambo. F: Kintambo? T: Yes. F: I see that he is wearing... T: ... the Belgian colors [flag]. F: The Belgian colors? T: Yes. F: On the lapel, this was the Belgian flag T: Yes, he wore a jacket, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: [He wore the colors] because he was mayor during Belgian times. F: I see. T: During Belgian times. So he took a pin representing the Belgian flag and put it on. F: Mm-hmm. |
| 7. bon/ tena: mu: trente huit: beko: anakutana na Kasavubu: na: Lumumba/ [Painting 39: Kasavubu and Lumumba Meet at the Brussels World's Fair]. T: na Lumumba/ oui: ni ku exposition: sawa vile nalikuelezea: F: mm/ T: na mi sifahamu maana ya: ya ile exposition: kama alikuwa juu ya vitabu: kama ilikuwa juu ya matableaux: ou bien: minafanya sawa niko artiste: naliwaza wepeshi: tableaux/ F:mm/ T: ni vile naweka matableaux: balipenta ...?... F: na jina ya Picasso ya: T: Picasso: van Gogh: na jina yangu vilevile naliweka kule: F: mm/ T: mm/ [chuckles] F: [chuckles] T: bon/ batu mingi: unaona: madame: iko pale: européenne: F: mm/ T: et puis: bamonsieurs: na ba: citoyens Lumbumba na: Kasavubu/ beko naangaria matableaux: ii pose angaria naye tableau huku: F: mm/ T: huyu njo anakuya: comment muntu mweusi humu? nayee anakuya: eko namna gani? njo kujuana kwabo/ F: mm/ T: mm/ voilà/ |
7. F: Alright, and now, in thirty eight it's the meeting between Kasavubu and Lumumba [Painting 39: Kasavubu and Lumumba Meet at the Brussels World's Fair]. T: And Lumumba. Yes, it was at an exhibition, as I explained to you. F: Mm-hmm. T: But I don't know what the exposition was about. Was it books? Or paintings? Now, since I am an artist it did not take me long to decide that it was paintings. F: Mm-hmm. T: So I put in paintings they did ... F: With the names of Picasso... T: ...Picasso, van Gogh, and my own name, too, I put there. F: Mm-hmm. T: Mm-hmm [chuckles]. F: [chuckles] T: Anyhow, a lot of people were there. You see a European lady over there. F: Mm-hmm. T: And there were [European] gentlemen, also Lumumba and Kasavubu, two Congolese, looking at pictures. I painted one of them in the pose of looking at a painting... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... while the other one is approaching. "How come," one of them says, "there is a black person here?" And the other says: "How can this be?" This is how they got to know each other. F: Mm-hmm. T: Mm-hmm. There you are. |
| 8. . F: sasa: quatre janvier/ [Painting 40: Lumumba Leading the Léopoldville Uprising] T: quatre janvier: pardon: nitoshe ya chini eh? F: tuko na mbili/ T: ah nitoshe ya chini: F: mm/ T: bon/ mbili inaachana? kuko moja: nafanya kwa kuweza kuuzisha ile wakati/ ya drapeau yetu hii tuko naye sasa/ kuko moja: iko ndani ya histoire/ F: ...?... T: ile: ii iko ndani ya histoire/ ile: haina na histoire ?proprement puisque: F: aah/ T: eeh/ puisque ile nitaweza kuuzisha hata sasa hapa/ ku banduku/ na hii: puisque: drapeau: inaonyesha wakati ya zamani/ F: ile donc: inaonyesha donc: T: ii: iko mu histoire/ puisque: iko na drapeau inyewe ya ile: époque/ F: mm/ T: mm/ bon/ ni vile: Lumumba njo alibamba drapeau: eh? F: mu histoire hapa? T: ah: bapeuple beko ku mukongo: F: mm/ T: ile ?comme ce: mu mille neuf cent cinquante neuf: sawa ile tableau inyewe: ile manifestation: ilicauser kukumbusha6 manyumba: na kutupa bintu: kuua bintu: kubeba: bengine banakwenda nabyo: manguo: mamachine: maz: ma: mara: poste à radio: bintu mingi na bintu ingine tu/ mm/ F: Costa? T: ni ilikuwa bazungu wa mu Kinshasa: ku kuwaza tu/ F: Hôtel Kasa? T: oui: Kasa: F: Gancia/ T: Léo premier/ Gancia/ Léo deux/ F: paka manyumba ya kule/ T: manyumba ya kule/ ni vile: F: nayee anavwala chemise gani? T: Lumumba? F: mm/ T: anavwala chemise mweupe: ile ya wakati nalifanya: [chuckles] rangi ili: pandaka kule/ F: mais sasa: minaona tena ni sawa tableaux mbili/ T: ahah/ F: eh? T: bon/ F: moya: [rummage] moya inaon: inaonyesha: sawa: ii révolte ya quatre janvier: T: bon/ F: tena: portrait moya ya Lumumba/ T: aah/ ile: F: ...?... T: maana yake: ni kusema: mambo inyewe inatokea: ni pa discours ya Lumumba ile alifanya: juu hii mambo: F: mm/ T: inatokea/ ni tableau moja tu/ c'est que inaonyesha kama ni: juu ya ile mambo alisema yee/ njo pale: batu: balitomboka/ na ku: ua bitu ya: ya bazungu: ...?... F: na ile nga: ile ngambo: ina: tableau inamuonyesha: sawa: sawa ku discours yake? T: yake eeh/ F: mm/ hii minaona unafanya mbiombio/ T: ii eh? F: mm/ T: apana: ni wakati achangaliki nafanya tu: wakati nilipatanaka na mweye: ii ni ya sasa ii/ F: ii ni ya sasa? T: eh: ii ni ya sasa/ eh/ ile ni art/ art: iko namna mingi/ F: [laughs] T: nitaweza kufanya nafanya couleur ingine: [chuckles] nachanger couleur ingine/ |
8. F: Now, January 4 [Painting 40: Lumumba Leading the Léopoldville Uprising] T: January 4. Sorry, Should I take out the one below? F: We have two of them. T: Ah, I should take out the one below. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, the two are different, aren't they? One of them I did so I could sell it at the time, with our present flag. The other one has its proper place in history. F: ...?... T: This one here is placed in history; the other one isn't really historical because... F: I see. T: Right. That's the one I can sell even now to my brothers, whereas the flag on the other one shows a time that has passed. F: So this one shows... T: It is historical because it has the flag of the period. F: Mm-hmm. T: Mm-hmm. Anyway, Lumumba picked up the flag, right? F: the historical one here?14 T: Yes, and the people are behind him. F: Mm-hmm. T: That was in 1959, and this demonstration had as a result that houses were looted and things were thrown outside, destroyed, taken away. Some went away with clothes, appliances, radios and many other things. Mm-hmm. F: [Who was] Costa?15 T: [That was the name of] whites from Kinshasa; it was just an idea [to put it there]. F: Hotel Kasa? T: Yes, Kasa. F: Gancia. T: Léo[pold] I, Gancia, Léo[pold] II. F: Just buildings there [in Kinshasa]. T: Yes, buildings there. F: And what kind of shirt is he wearing? T: Lumumba? F: Mm-hmm. T: He wears a white shirt. I painted it in the color they used to wear in those days, when they went out16 there [in Kinshasa]. F: But now another thing: I see really two paintings [in one].17 T: I see. F: Right? T: Fine. F: One shows [rummage] the uprising of January 4. T: Fine. F: The other a portrait of Lumumba. T: Ah, that.... F: ...?... T: The idea behind this is to show that this event started with Lumumba's speech, because of this affair... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... that was the result. But it is really one painting. It's just that it shows that it was because of what he had said that the people exploded and destroyed the property of the whites. T: So this side of the painting shows [Lumumba] during his speech? T: Yes. F: Mm-hmm. It looks to me as if you painted this very quickly. T: This one? No, but it may look that way because I made it some time ago, before I met you. The other one I did now.18 F: So this one was done recently? T: Yes, it is recent. Well, that's the way with art, it comes in many kinds. F: [laughs] T: I could also do one in different colors [chuckles], change to a different color. |
| 9. F: tunafika kwa tableau: eh: kama ni numéro: ts: na hapa tuliachana kiloko: T: mm/ F: quarante deux hapa mu: yangu/ ku liste hii: T: tulikotola: F: ...?... ni vita ku: Kinshasa/ [Painting 41: Troops Intervene in Léopoldville] T: ku Kinshasa/ ilikuwa quatre janvier/ F: aah/ T: eeh/ bon/ ile mvita/ sawa hii tableau: na minazani nakotola/ nitatshikia mi vile/ kwa sababu ile wakati bo bado kufanya appel à l'ONU/ F: appel à l'ONU? T: eeh/ c'est que bal'ONU: sawa minakuonyesha ndani: abakukuyemo apana/ F: bado? T: aah/ bale balikuwa penywe vita: ilikuya: bamerce: nani quoi: les Paras Belges: F: Paras Belges/ T: na Force Publique/ njo ilikatazaka ile mvita: kuwa nguvu zaidi/ F: mm/ minaona wazungu: T: ni bazungu wa kati: muzungu mwanamuke: muzungu mwanau: unaona huyu? F: mm/ T: na muzungu: ni mbio: na mushale: asema niue tu/ huyu muzungu anakufa: huyu muntu anakufa: ilikuwa siku waliuana: mingi sana/ F: huyu munene huyu/ T: huyu munene ni muntu mulefu/ na muti ku mukono/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ nayee iko ana: kimbia paka asema nikauane: nipikane tu/ F: mm/ T: na ile avion: iko juu: avion ya vita/ wakati nilisikia vile Kinshasa yote inawaka: kulikuwa avion de chasse eh? F: mm/ T: ya Force Publique ile wakati/ mais ilikuwa baParas Belges: aikukuwe Force Publique hapana/ F: balipasula nani: tableau: dra: T: bana: bana: ile siku bali: pasula drapeau ya Belges: ya Belgique pardon: F: mm/ T: balipasula: bana: tupa: akuwe tu mufano ata moja/ F: mm/ minaona unaanza kuweka macadres kiloko sasa/ ya mweushi/ T: cadre kidogo ya mweusi eh?7 F: mm/ T: oui: apana: ni ma: ni ma: kuko na wakati ingine eh? kintu tutaweza kuya muzuri: njo kusema nifanye hivi/ F: mm/ T: ni kusema pale nalianzaka: nalianza namna ingine/ F: mm/ T: na pa kwanza kuendelea asema nipente hivi: itakuwa muzuri/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ |
9. F: Now we have come to painting number -- wait, here we are a little off [with our count]. T: Mm-hmm. F: It says forty-two here but on my list... T: We fell behind.19 F: There is war in Kinshasa [Painting 41: Troops Intervene in Léopoldville]. T: In Kinshasa. It was on January 4. F: I see. T: Right then, about this war. In this picture I think I made a mistake, I'll admit this. Because at that time the appeal to the UN had not yet gone out. F: Appeal to the UN? T: Yes, but the UN troops I show you in this picture weren't there yet. F: Not yet? T: Right, the ones who were involved in the fighting were the mercenaries, or rather the Belgian paratroopers. F: The Belgian paratroopers. T: And the Force Publique [colonial army]. They prevented the fighting from getting totally out of control. F: Mm-hmm. I see whites. T: There are whites in the midst of it, a white woman and a white man, and do see that one? F: Mm-hmm. T: The one with a spear. [He is running after] a white man, out to kill. This white man is dying and so is that black man, there was mutual slaughter. F: And this tall guy? T: That is a tall black guy. He has a stick in his hand. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, and he is hurrying to get into the killing and fighting. F: Mm-hmm. T: And those planes are war planes. I heard that they were all over Kinshasa in those days. They were jet fighters... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... of the colonial army. But they were manned by Belgian paratroopers, not by colonial soldiers. F: The flag has been torn to pieces. T: On that day, they tore up the flag of the Belgians, sorry of Belgium. F: Mm-hmm. T: They tore it up and threw it away, it was unbelievable. F: Mm-hmm. I see that you begin to paint small black frames [around you pictures]. T: Small black frames? F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes but, no, they appear from time to time, right? [When I see] something can be improved then I decide to do this. F: Mm-hmm. T: What I want to say, when I began [painting] I did it differently. F: Mm-hmm. T: And when I began to make progress I decided to paint this way so it should be beautiful. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. |
| 10. F: sasa vingt: quarante trois: ni kufa kwa Ko: T: kwa Kokolo/ [Painting 42: Colonel Kokolo is Killed] F: kwa Nkolo/ T: eeh: [correcting me] Kokolo/ F: eh: Kokolo/ T: sababu uko na jina sawa camp Kokolo/ F: sawa camp Kokolo? T: mm/ F: mm/ T: bon/ ni vile ni kwake ku nyumba: unaona matableaux minaweka kule: F: mm/ T: ile tableaux minaandika Laskas: F: mm/ T: ingine naandika Tshibumba: meza ya mu nyumba ina: anguka: et puis: yee mwenyewe analala chini: basoldats banashimama yulu: F: baONU? T: mais: F: ina...?... kuwa baBelges? T: bon: minaandika bal'ONU: mais: ilikuwa ba: baBelges: njo walimuuaka/ F: eeh/ T: eeh/ c'est que ile tableaux iko na maerreurs: tableaux mbili/ kuko erreur/ F: baGhana/ T: eeh/ Ghanéens/ na nalikotola sana/ F: balikuwa makali? T: balikuwaka makali [chuckles]/ F: c'est vrai? T: aah eh/ bon/ |
10. F: Now twenty, rather forty-three, the death of Ko... T: ...of Kokolo [Painting 42: Colonel Kokolo is Killed] F: At Nkolo's. T: Yes, [correcting me] Kokolo's/ F: Right, Kokolo. T: There is a [place] name like Camp Kokolo. F: Camp Kokolo? T: Mm-hmm. F: Mm-hmm. T: The scene is Kokolo's house. You see that I put in some paintings. F: Mm-hmm. T: One of them I signed Laskas [a fellow painter]. F: Mm-hmm. T: The other I signed Tshibumba. The table in this room was overturned and Kokolo himself lies on the ground. The soldiers are standing over him. F: UN [soldiers]? T: Well... F: Weren't they Belgians? T: Well, [on the picture] I wrote "UN [soldiers]" [ on their helmets] but, in fact, it was the Belgians who killed him. F: I see. T: There are mistakes in the two paintings. There was a mistake. F: [There were UN soldiers] from Ghana. T: Yes, Ghanaians. I really was off. F: Were they tough? T: They were tough [chuckles]. F: Is that true? T: Ah, yes. Fine.20 |
| 11. ile ni Kasavubu mbele ya tribunal/ [Painting 43: Kasavubu in Court] sawa vile nalikuelezea: balimufungaka: ile ni: foto ya Baudouin: F: ...?... T: ile ni portrait ya Baudouin: F: hii ni portrait ya Baudouin? T: ah sawa wakati alikuwa roi [chuckles]: yapashwa tuweke juu: mm: F: na: galasi/ T: na magalasi eeh/ bon/ bajuges: beko banamusambisha: na kisha yake balimuachiliaka/ F: mm/ T: ile ni escalier inatoka kule: ku nyumba/ njo ya kufika ndani ya ...?... F: eko wapi? mu Kinshasa? T: ni Kinshasa mm/ F: mm/...?... Kasavubu/ |
11. T: This is Kasavubu before the court [Painting 43: Kasavubu in Court]. As I explained to you, they locked him up. Up there, that's a portrait of Baudouin. F: ...?... T: That is a portrait of Baudouin. F: This is a portrait of Baudouin? T: He was the king at the time [chuckles], so we had to put up [his portrait]. F: With his glasses. T: With his glasses, yes. Alright. So the judges tried him but then they let him go. F: Mm-hmm. T: That is a staircase that comes down from the building, that is how you would get into ...?... F: Where was this, in Kinshasa? T: In Kinshasa, mm-hmm. F: Mm-hmm...Kasavubu. |
| 12. hapa: T: ni Lumumba: F: Lumumba: [Painting 44: Lumumba in Buluo Prison]: Buluo/ T: Buluo/ F: quarante cinq: T: balimupika: fimbo mingi kabisa kabisa nazania: unaona vile banamupika/ na damu iko natoka/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ na manguo ?tena haribika: et puis: umu ndani hii mabarreaux: c'est à dire: ni ndani/ ya nyumba/ ni ndani ya nyumba/ kule ni inje/ F: mm/ mm/ T: eeh/ na kisha yake balikuya kumufungula: na balimuacha ile mikamba banafunga: anaikala chini/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ F: hapa tu ni Likasi? T: ni Likasi tu: Likasi/ kama unaona buloko moya iko huku? F: mm/ T: eeh/ fasi: F: tuliona: tuliona/ T: c'est ça/ F: kumbe ba: balipasha kumuacha: T: balimuachaka: F: juu ya nini? T: balimuacha asema: sawa vile balimulomba ku Table Ronde: F: mm/ T: Kalonji: Kasavubu: bote balisema non: paka yee anakuya: puisque ni yee njo mwenyewe alibianza/ sasa shee tutakamatia wapi? F: mm/ T: tutaanza mambo ingine atujue/ yee akuye: akuwa atuelezea muzuri: ile tutaanza hapa/ |
12. Here [we have]... T: This is Lumumba. F: Lumumba [at] Buluo [Painting 44: Lumumba in Buluo Prison]. T: Buluo. F: [Number] forty-five]. T: [In Buluo prison] Lumumba was given a terrible flogging. You can see how he was beaten up, and the blood that is flowing. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. His clothes were torn and the bars are to show that he is inside a cell, the background is outside. F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. T: Yes. When they locked him up they did not remove the ropes, and he is sitting on the floor. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. F: Was that in Likasi? T: In Likasi, Likasi. Haven't you seen the prison there? F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, [that] place... F: We have seen it; we have seen it. T: That's it. F: And then they had to set him free. T: They set him free. F: Why? T: He was freed because the Round Table demanded it. F: Mm-hmm. T: Kalonji, Kasavubu, all of them said: "He has to come because he was the one who started all this. Where are we to go from here?" F: Mm-hmm. T: "We may embark on something we don't know. He should come and explain to us well what we are about to set in motion here." |
| 13. ni kweli nayee alipanda njo ile shiku anaacha Lubumbashi: F: mm/ [go on without pause to Painting 45: Lumumba Flies to Brussels] T: oui/ anaacha Lubumbashi: hii nazania kama: kama unatembea njia lwa mikulu ni ii njia: unafahamu/ peko kilalo: F: mm/ T: mayi ya Lubumbashi anapita: F: mm/ T: ahah/ anaruga sasa: anakwenda/ njo mawazo naliwaza/ ii ni mawazo sawa ulisema da: mu mawazo yako: F: mm/ T: na mi ni mawazo yangu [chuckles] niko nafanya/ bongo na kweli niko naweka mule ndani: kwa kutengeneza/ ahah/ F: oui/ T: anaruga: anakwenda kuparticiper ku: ku Table Ronde/ F: mm/ |
13. The truth is, on that day Lumumba took off from Lubumbashi. F: Mm-hmm [Painting 45: Lumumba Flies to Brussels]. T: Yes, he left Lubumbashi. I think you may have walked that road there and know it. There is a bridge. F: Mm-hmm. T: The Lubumbashi river flow there. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. So Lumumba takes to the air and he leaves. That is how I thought it up. It's a thought. As you said: "[As you see things] in your thoughts." F: Mm-hmm. T: What I painted is what I imagined [chuckles]. I put lies and truth into that painting when I composed it. F: Yes T: He took to the air, he left to participate in the Round Table. F: Mm-hmm. |
| 14. tena: hapa tunaona: mu quarante sept: tunaona Table Ronde/ [Painting 46: The Brussels Round Table] T: participation eh? F: mm/ T: nazani unaona: apa: ni: bwana Lumumba: F: ndiyo/ T: Kashamura: ni Moïse: Tshombe: F: mm/ T: ni: Kalonji Albert: F: mm/ T: bon/ kule: ni muntu: Kasavubu: apa ni Gizenga: vile balikuya nazania tunendelea na kule/ bote baliparticiper mu ile conférence/ mbele ya ...?...: kuko micro: juu ya kuweza kusema: sawa vile mu salle: ...?... F: ilikuwa mu soixante? T: ilikuwa mu soixante/ Table Ronde ya Bruxelles/ F: eyo/ T: mm/ mais: mwenzi[sic] njo sifahamu/ et puis le trente juin: njo balitupa: Indépendant/ F: mm/ |
14. F: So now we see, in [number] forty-seven, the Round Table [Painting 46: The Brussels Round Table]. T: Who participated, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: I think you can see Mr. Lumumba here. F: Yes. T: Kashamura, Moïse Tshombe. F: Mm-hmm. T: Albert Kalonji. F: Mm-hmm. T: Right. The person there is Kasavubu, and Gizenga over here. This is how they were [seated] and I think we go on [with the seats] over there.21 All of them participated in that conference. Before them there were microphones in the room where they met so they could make their speeches. F: That was in '60? T: That was in '60, the Brussels Round Table. F: I see. T: Mm-hmm. But the month I don't know. And then, on June 30, they gave us independence. F: Mm-hmm |
| 15. tena: mu quarante huit: [Painting 47: The Proclamation of Independence] T: mu quarante huit: uko na zéro heures: procrama: proclamation pardon:8 de l'Indépendance/ F: oui/ T: bon/ ni kweli njo siku balileta Indépendance/ F: mm/ T: le trente Juin/ F: na: nani aliproclamer kule? T: le roi: Baudouin/ F: Baudouin/ T: njo aliproclamer Indépendance/ F: mm/ T: ii ni magistrature: et puis: ni: Lumumba: na: Kasavubu/ kule: kuko bapeuple/ mm/ F: ku mukongo? T: na ku mukongo/ bantu balikuya mu le: nazani: sawa vile unaniuliza mbele: nazani mu ile nyumba ni: ni palais de la nation/ njo bali: proclamation: bali: proclamaka9 nani: Indépendance ile/ F: na drapeau ni ya Congo? T: drapeau ni ya Congo/ ile wakati: ya proclamation Indépendance: Congo ilikuwa na six provinces/ c'est à dire province ya Katanga: F: mm/ T: province ya Kivu: province ya Orientale: province de l'Equateur: province ya: yaa Léopoldville: na province ya Kasai/ F: mm/ T: ahah/ njo ile siku wali: waliproclamer/ F: aah kumbe ile: T: sasa ile nyota moya: F: baliweka nyota six: T: aah/ ile nyota moya: iko: unité/ F: mm/ T: mm/ njo vile ilikuyaka/ F: mm/ T: utaweza kuniuliza tena/ F: ts: alafu Kasavubu anavwala uniforme? T: Kasavabu anavwala: manguo ya: busultani/ puisque pale alikuwa chef de l'état: balimupa: ile: manguo ya buchef de l'etat/ puisque alikuwa chef de l'état: en même temps kama ni: oh magistrature vile balinitaka na mi sifahamu muzuri/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ chef suprème: kama umagistrature: tout ça/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ |
15. Then, in [number] forty-eight [Painting 47: The Proclamation of Independence] T: In forty-eight you have zero hour, the proclamation of independence. F: Yes. T: Alright. This was the day independence was granted. F: Mm-hmm. T: On June 30. F: And who was there to make the proclamation? T: The king, Baudouin. F: Baudouin. T: He proclaimed independence. F: Mm-hmm. T: Those are the judges, and then there are Lumumba and Kasavubu, and the people over there. Mm-hmm. F: In the back? T: In the back, black people were in [the assembly hall]. I think you already asked [about that], it was in the hall of the "Palace of the Nation." That is where they proclaimed that22 independence. F: And the flag is that of the Congo? T: The flag is that of the Congo. At the time of the proclamation of independence the Congo had six provinces, that is to say, the province of Katanga... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... the province of Kivu, the Eastern province, the Equator province, the province of Léopoldville, and the province of Kasai/ F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, that was the day of the proclamation. F: I see, so this... T: Now, there is this one star. F: [And next to it] they put six stars. T: Yes, this one star signifies unity.. F: Mm-hmm. T: Mm-hmm. That's how it was. F: Mm-hmm. T: You can ask, if you have more questions. F: Kasavubu wears a uniform? T: Kasavubu wears a dress that marks his rulership. Because he was the head of state, they gave him that dress. He was head of state. At the same time there was the magistrature, or what was it call, I'm not sure about this. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, the head of the supreme court, all that. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. |
| 16. F: sasa: signature: [Painting 48: Lumumba Signs the Golden Book] T: signature: ni kweli mu: F: livre eh: d'or/ T: banamupatia: nani: kitabu: anasigner: F: paka ile wakati? T: ile wakati inyewe siku ya Indépendance: puisque premier ministre: F: mm/ T: alibeba gouvernement: alikuwa chef ya: ya gouvernement/ F: mm/ T: bon: aliitikia: anasigner kitab: livre d'or: na?be maprovinces yote sawa minaandika kule: kuko tableau moya mwenye nalimuandikia: maprovinces ya sasa kwa lakini: ni hii [points to other painting] F: ii: ii ni ya sasa? T: ii ni provinces ya sasa oui/ puisque hii nalikuwa juu ya kuuzisha/ F: mm/ T: kuko: kama juu ya histoire: nitaweza kufanya ile tableau: mais minaandika maprovinces ya zamani vile ilikuya/ F: mm/ T: eheh/ unaona naandika qui forment le Zaire: non: qui forment le Congo/ F: oui oui/ T: eheh/ |
16. F: Now it's the signing [Painting 48: Lumumba Signs the Golden Book] T: Indeed, the signature in... F: ...the Golden Book. T: They gave him the book and he signed. F: Was that at the same time [when Independence was proclaimed]? T: The same time, the day of independence. Because, as prime minister... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... Lumumba took over23 the government. He was head of government. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. He agreed to sign the Golden Book, under the names of all the provinces as I wrote [them] down there [on the picture]. But on this painting I wrote down their current names. But there is one painting where I wrote down the provinces as they are called now, this one [points to another painting]. F: This one is recent? T: Those are the provinces now. Because I had this one [with me] to sell it. F: Mm-hmm. T: Had I done it for this History I could have written down the names of the provinces as they were called then. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. As you can see, I wrote "which form Zaire" and not "which form the Congo."24 F: Yes. Yes.25 T: Right. |
| 17. F: tena: kisha yake: discours/ T: discours/ njo ile discours ilikuya: batu bengine banasema: kama: kufwa kwa Lumumba: il paraît que ni pale ali: [interrupts, aside] ile ni mwee benyewe eh? F: mm/ T: aah/ ni nini? F: paka ...?... T: ah ...?... kama unakamata mafuta kidogo eh? F: ndiyo/ T: unafanya nayo: itatoka yote/ bon: banasema kufwa kwa Lumumba: ni pale bali: ni pale alisemaka discours ile alichambulaka Baudouin mingi mu Kinshasa: njo pale alikufa/ bengine banasema hapana: kufwa kwa Lumumba: ni politique: ya mu Shaba/ F: mm/ T: bengi: ni: iko mambo mingi/ kufwa kwake: atujue kwa lakini/ voilà ni vile kwa lakini minaona/ F: alimuchambula namna gani? T: alisemaka: mufano alikwenda kuona nayee mu bulaya: kama banatunandaka10 mu bulaya na mwee muko sawa mwetu humu: muko bapauvres: muko bariches kwa lakini/ F: mm/ T: vile alisemaka/ alisemaka mingi mais: na mi siwezi nafahamu ile discours: wakati alisema/ na batu walikuwa mingi: banamuke: banaume: F: paka huyu: T: ahah: ule ni policier ya: ya mbele: F: mm/ T: ya zamani/ sawa ile shiku mangaribi yake: njo balitoshaka ile nguo: banavwala hii ya: ya gris/ F: mm/ T: aah/ F: na Baudouin: anasikia tu/ T: Baudouin anasikia: na eko nacheka tu/ F: anapashwa kucheka/ T: eh ni: ni: banasemaka roi/ nazania vile/ roi anapashwa anacheka ata ile wakati ya maiti: yapashwa kuweka kacheko tu/ mm/< |
17. . F: After that the speech [Painting 49: Lumumba Makes His Famous Speech]. T: The speech. About that speech -- some people say that this is when he … [interrupts, aside] this is something you did, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: Ah, what is this? F: Just some... T: If you take a little oil [you can remove it], right? F: Yes. T: If you apply it, all [the spots] will go away.26 Alright, people say that this was when Lumumba signed his death warrant. When he insulted Baudouin in his speech, that is when he died. Others deny that and say that Lumumba's death was a matter of Shaba politics. F: Mm-hmm. T: Others -- it was a complicated affair. His death, we don't know, but this is how I see it. F: How did he insult [Baudouin]? T: Simply by what he said. For instance, what he had observed in Europe, that they were cheating us. "You are rich in Europe," he said, "but we are poor here." F: Mm-hmm. T: That's how he talked. But he said a lot and I don't really know that speech, I did not hear it at the time. And many people were there, women and men... F: And who is this one? T: Ah, that is a policeman [dressed] as they used to be. F: Mm-hmm. T: In former times. In those days, in the evening, they would take out this grey uniform and put it on. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes. F: And Baudouin just listens. T: Baudouin listens and smiles. F: He had to smile. T: That's what they say, I believe. A king has to smile even at times when it is difficult. He must put on a little smile. |
| 18. F: kiisha yake: tunafika na: T: Lumumba tena ...?... F: cinquante et un: [Painting 50: Whites Fleeing the Congo] T: bon: Lumumba anabakia tena mu cinquante et un vile: anasema kama: tous les Belges: doivent quitter le Congo dans vingt quat: dans vingt quatre heures/ F: eeh/ T: c'est que ile siku ilikuwa: hatari sana: tutasumbulia kiloko juu ya hii mambo: sawa vile nalionakayo/ F: eeh/ T: ilikuya: si tulikalaka kwetu ku nyumba: baba alienda mu kazi: baba yangu miye/ ule tuliona ku foto/ F: mm/ T: alienda mu kazi/ kwendaka mu kazi kule alikwenda: tuliongolea mangaribi: baba kuya hapana/ tunaona paka ma: quatre heures: basoldats banaanza kutoka mu camp/ bilatu hapana/ F: mm/ T: tiens/ na babibi: benye kubeba bintu/ ni nini? asema bazungu banatomboka/ banatomboka: banatomboka wapi? asema banatomboka tu/ hakuna mufano/ banabeba ?nyumba ya masashi: na bintu ingine/ ni kweli: tulikuwa mvita moya ya nguvu kabisa/ she tuliongolea kama baba atafika: wapi/ tunaongolea/ wapi/ kufika quatre heures: cinq heures: six heures: tunasema kumbe banaisha kumuua ...?.../ F: mm/ T: sababu alienda mu kazi/ shiku moya: inapita: tunaona muntu ya mu kazi yabo anakuya: asema ooh: Ambroise alienda na bas: na bazungu: ku Zambia/ sasa ni Zambia/ alikwenda na ba: na bamadames: puisque ali: umu ndani [pointing to the truck in the picture] mulikuwa bamadames: na batoto/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ ii njo alibebaka ?tire: atabatambusha paka: ?ngambo/ na kisha juma moya ya mvita: juma ya pili: tunaona anarudia tu muzima/ anaanza na kazi yake sawa desturi/ F: mm/ T: mm/ njo vile ilikuyaka/ na bale: sawa vile nilikuelezea: ni bamadames: na mtoto: anakwenda ku mayi kama wataweza kunywa/ et puis u: ule na pyjama: F: mm/ T: anafulia11 kunawa maji: ule: ni kusema nikunywe ata maji na mikono tu/ F: mm/ T: sawa vile alibeba chupa yake: ni kubeba chupa: nikunywe tu/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ njo ile wakati/ ...?... F: mbalambala ya: Zambie? T: ya Zambie eeh/ ilikuwa paka mu soixante/ |
18. F: After that, we come to... T: ... still about Lumumba... F: ...[number] fifty-one [Painting 50: Whites Fleeing the Congo].T: Alright, Lumumba is still present in [number] fifty-one by what he said : "All the Belgian must leave the Congo within twenty-four hours." F: I see. T: Those were very dangerous days, let us talk a little about this affair as I witnessed it. F: I see. T: What happened was, we were at home; my father -- the one we saw on the photograph -- had gone to work. F: Mm-hmm. T: He had gone to work. In the evening we were waiting for him but father did not come. At four o'clock we only saw soldiers leaving their barracks, without shoes. F: Mm-hmm. T: "What is this?" And [we also saw] their wives, carrying their belongings. "What is this?" The word was out: "There is tumult and confusion among the whites. They are in an uproar, but where." [The rumor was] "They are just rioting, unbelievable." They carry away baggage from their homes and other things.27 Truly, we were in the midst of a big war. We kept waiting for father to arrive, nothing happened. We waited, nothing. When it got to four o'clock, five o'clock, six o'clock, we said: "So they killed him." F: Mm-hmm. T: Because he had gone to work. A day went by and we saw someone from his work place coming. "Oh," he said, "Ambroise went with the whites to Zambia. He is in Zambia now. He went with the ladies." Inside [pointing to the truck in the picture] there were the ladies and the children. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, It is them he drove and was going to guide over there. A week of turmoil went by, then a second one and we saw him return alive. So he took up his usual work. F: Mm-hmm. T: Mm-hmm. That's how it happened. And those persons [on the picture], as I explained to you, are the ladies and children. [The truck] went close to some water so they could drink. And there is this one, the one wearing pajamas. F: Mm-hmm. T: He is drawing water to wash and this other one tells himself: "I'll drink water, even if it is with my hands. F: Mm-hmm. T: He has brought his bottle along but, even so, he tells himself: "Let me drink." F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, that was the time... F: Is this a road in Zambia? T: Yes, in Zambia, it was in '60. |
| 19. F: sasa: numéro cinquante: deux: [Painting 51: Congolese Troops Fighting Belgian Paracommondos] T: cinquante deux: F: Force Publique: T: ni monument eh? F: monument/ T: ile monument aliexis: iliexister inakuwa juste/ ?yashio pomonaka12 mi nalikuyaka hapa/ F: mm/ T: bon/ balipomona mu: mu le dix sept janvier: c'était soixan: soixante sept ou bien? soixante sept/ ah hapa: le sept janvier soixante sept: njo ilipomonaka/ c'est que: wakati ile ya mvita inyee ya soixante: F: mm/ T: ii na: narépresenter juu ya ville ya Likasi: sawa vile iliwa souvenir: njo bana: banafanya ile/ ni kule balipikanaka mu: mu Likasi/ basoldats ya: baParas Belges: na ba: soldats ya Force Publique/ F: mm/ T: baliuanaka sana na zaidi/ na mbele ya mulima hii: baliua basoldats wazungu/ bote balikimbiaka: na Force Publique ilibakiaka/ tunawaza sasa kama: matata sasa inaisha: bantu banaikala kimya/ F: mm/ T: na kweli kuikala kimya: asubui yake: tuliona tu ba: bantu/ bacivils/ tiens: mi nilikuwa étudiant ile wakati/ bana: paka bantu: beko nakimbia: beko anakwenda mu camp/ ni nini? asema banatuita mu camp/ kufika mu camp: banaanza kukabulia tu: huyu bunduki: huyu: huyu tenue: huyu bunduki: huyu tenue: huyu bunduki: kunaisha: munakuwa ba: soldats ya Katanga/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ bon/ tutapiga namna gani? asema: bamba paka hivi tu/ kunaisha/ bon: baParas Belges balibembelesha bale baForce Publique: asema bon akuna maneno: na binaisha paka vile/ balibakamata/ |
19. F: Now it is number fifty-two [Painting 51: Congolese Troops Fighting Belgian Paracommandos]. T: Fifty-two. F: [reading from painting] Force Publique [the colonial army]. T: It's a monument, right? F: A monument. T: This was a monument that used to stand there. I was there and I saw it before it was torn down. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, they tore it down on January 17 in, I think, '67. [checks a note] Ah here it is. On January 7, '67, that was when it got torn down. But during the war around 1960... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... it represented [something] about the town of Likasi, they put it up as a souvenir. It was at this monument in Likasi that the Belgian paratroopers and the soldiers of the Force Publique fought each other. F: Mm-hmm. T: And they both made many casualties. It was before this pile of stones that white soldiers were killed. Then they all fled and the Force Publique remained [victorious]. Then we thought that this was the end of the troubles and the people stayed calm. F: Mm-hmm. T: It's true, they stayed calm. Next morning, I was in school at the time, we saw black people, civilians. "What is this," [we said] "people are hurrying, they go to the barracks. What is this?" Then they said: "They call us to the camp." There they began to hand out weapons, everyone was given a gun and a uniform, and that was it. [They said:] "Now you are Katangese soldiers." F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, alright. "How are we going to fire [the guns]?" "Just pick them up like this." And that was all. But eventually, the Belgian paratroopers tricked the soldiers of the Force Publique. They first told them that everything was settled, then they made them prisoners.28 |
| 20. kisha kubakamata: njo ile tableau ingine nazania/ [Painting 52: The Deportation of Congolese Troops] F: mm/ T: balikwenda nabo: na kufika nabo ku gare: kubapika: kubafunga nkamba: si bengine banakuwa na: F: oui/ T: bengine balikwenda na ma: tatouages eh? ile: njoloko/ balikamata tu: ao kisu: F: mm/ T: anamu: wanamukata paka hivi: damu iko natoka: kufunga nkamba: allez kutupa mule ndani/ kufunga mawagons: allez/ départ/ kwenda kwenu/ busoldat inaisha/ Katanga inabakia: ...?... drapeau yake sawa vile unaona ...?... F: ah ni kusema ni basoldats? T: na ba: bale ni basoldats bale baForce Publique/ F: ah ni mwenye kutoka: T: base: bale ba: F: oui/ oui oui oui/ T: ...?... barudisha kwabo/ sawa vile: mi sawa vile mwenye kusema histoire nalikala pa Likasi: F: ndiyo/ T: nafwata sawa ile mambo naliona: pa Likasi/ F: c'est ça/ T: ile ni gare ya Likasi/ F: mm/ T: bale basoldats bali: kombanaka ile wakati/ njo wakisha mvita: balibabembelesha: banababamba sasa/ kisha kubabamba: njo kubatuma: kwabo sasa/ F: mm/ |
20. In the end they made them prisoners. That is on this other picture, I think [Painting 52: The Deportation of Congolese Troops]. F: Mm-hmm. T: They went with them to the station. There they beat them, tied them up with ropes. And weren't there others ... F: Yes. T: ... who went away with tattoos? They would take a knife... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... and that person would cut [a prisoner] just like that, until the blood flowed. Then he would tie him up with a rope. "Get into the cars," they were told, and then the cars were locked. "Take off now, go home," they said, "you're no longer soldiers." Katanga was left behind, as you can see from its flags [on top of the station building]. F: Ah, [the victims] are soldiers? T: They are soldiers of the Force Publique. F: So, they are the ones getting off. T: That is to say, they... F: Yes, yes [now I understand]. T: ... are the ones that are made to return to the places they came from. I, the one who is telling this story, was then living in Likasi. I follow the events as I saw them in Likasi.29 F: Yes. T: I follow things as I saw them in Likasi. F: That's it. T: This [one in the picture] is the railway station in Likasi. F: Mm-hmm. T: Those [Force Publique] soldiers had been fighting at the time. When the war was over [the Katanga authorities] made them all sorts of promises and then they arrested them and send them home. F: Mm-hmm. |
| 21. T: ...?... F: tena: tunaona: tena: Luluabourg/ [Painting 53: Luba against Lulua] T: Kananga/ Luluabourg/ F: Luluabourg/ T: mm/ F: mu cinquante quatre/ T: cinquante quatre eeh/ F: numéro cinquante quatre/ T: non: apana mu cinquante quatre/ non/ F: non non: numéro cinquante quatre/ T: numéro cinquante quatre oui/ F: ni baLuba na baLulua banuana/ T: baLulua na baLuba: sawa vile wakati sasa: Kalonji anasema miye: niko sultani/ F: mm/ T: bon/ [looking at blue spots on painting] o lala: ni bic eh? pa kutumika nayo/ F: mm/ T: ilinidéranger: mi: ni: ni kintu moya mubaya/ kama: kama unaona: naona wakati: nitabeba nitakwenda naye: F: mm/ T: kuua ile bic/ eeh bon/ ni wakati ya: ile ni mwanza nkongolo/ unaitaka namna gani? arc en ciel eh/ F: oui/ T: aah she tunaita asema mwanza nkongolo/ F: mwanza nkongolo/ T: eeh/ F: maana yake ni nini? T: mwanza nkongolo? kama mvula anataka kupika: F: ndiyo: mais: uliweka juu ya nini? uliweka mu hii tableau? T: sababu: région ya Kasai: kuko: mvula wakati mingi/ F: mm/ T: sasa wakati waliweza kukombana: kukuye m: mvula: ni juu ya arc en ciel: njo ilipoteza ile: mvula/ ahah/ bon/ huyu voilà: nazania: tulifika pa wakati: inaonyesha kama baLulua na baLuba eh? F: mm/ |
21. T: ...?... F: Now we see Luluabourg [Painting 53: Luba against Lulua]. T: Kananga, [then] Luluabourg. F: Luluabourg. T: Mm-hmm. F: [As shown in number] fifty-four. T: Fifty-four, yes. F: Number fifty-four. T: No, not in fifty-four, no. F: No, no, number fifty-four. T: Number fifty-four, yes.30 F: It's Luba and Lulua killing each other. T: Lulua and Luba. It happened when Kalonji declared himself chief. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright [looking at some blue spots on the painting], oh my, it's because of the ball point pen I worked with, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: It gave me trouble, it's bad. When you find some time I take [the picture] with me... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... and I'll erase the marks of the ball pen. Alright then, at that time mwanza nkongolo appeared -- you understand what the means? -- the rainbow. F: Yes. T: Yes, we call it mwanza nkongolo. F: mwanza nkongolo. T: Yes. F: What does that mean? T: mwanza nkongolo? When it is about to rain... F: Yes, but why did you put it here, in this picture? T: Because in the Kasai region it rains a lot. F: Mm-hmm. T: So when they were about to fight each other, there was rain. Then, because the rainbow came, the rain disappeared. Yes. Anyway, I think we have now come to the time where [the picture] shows [the conflict between] Lulua and Luba, right? F: Mm-hmm. |
| 22. T: bon/ baLulua balisema mwee baKasai: baLuba: mwende kwenu/ she baKasai Lulua tubakie kwetu/ balipikana/ bo balikuwa na chefu yabo: alikuya: Kalamba: F: mm/ T: eeh: ni mwanankole: kama ni Kalamba/ bakala: baKasai nabo: ba baLuba balikuwa na Kalonji/ c'est que balipikana kabisa kabisa/ balibafukuza baLuba bote: kwenda kwabo/ kwabo kule balikwenda: balikwenda kufanya: ville yabo: sasa tuko Mbuji-Mayi/ [pointing Painting 54: The Luba Kingdom and the Building of Mbuji-Mayi] mm: ni vile/ ile ni chateau d'eau ya mu: Kananga: F: mm: Kananga eh/ T: ah: ile ni manyumba: kidogo kidogo ya mule/ mu Kananga/ haina asema njo mu ville inyewe ya Kananga/ non: ile ni pa: kamukini kaloko/ F: mm/ T: bantu balikombania mule/ ville inaonekana kule: kuko chateau d'eau/ F: aah/ T: eeh/ mhmh/ |
22. T: Alright, the Lulua told the Luba: "You, Baluba Kasai, go back to your home country. We, the Lulua Kasai, want to be [alone] in our country." And so they fought each other. The Lulua had their own chief, Kalamba. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, [in their language] mwanankole, Kalamba [Mwanankole]. The Baluba had Kalonji. There was a violent struggle. [The Lulua] chased all the Luba away [and made them] go home. There they set about to build their own town and now we have Mbuji-Mayi [pointing Painting 54: The Luba Kingdom and the Building of Mbuji-Mayi] Mm-hmm, that's how it was. [Briefly returning to the preceding picture:] That is the Kananga water tower. F: Mm-hmm, Kananga, I see. T: Yes, but small those houses there are not in the town of Kananga itself, they belong to a small village [outside Kananga]. F: Mm-hmm. T: This is where people fought each other; the town is visible over there, and there is the water tower. F: I see. T: Yes. Mm-hmm |
| 23. F: kisha: tena vita: [Painting 55: Luba-Kasai against the National Army] T: vita: ya: F: baLuba: na ANC/ T: baLuba eh: oui/ sawa vile nalikuelezeayo: ni Kalonji déjà pale alikuya nayee mule: F: ile na vé hivi: T: victoire/ F: hata: victoire? T: eeh/ sawa: kama: F: ...?... drapeau: rouge: vert: T: eeh: na victoire/ F: na victoire/ T: c'était Kalonji eh? F: njo Kalonji/ T: Kalonji yee kulamukia kwake/ kama anafika mbele ya wapeuple alianza kufanya kale [shows V-sign]/ F: ah na: anafanya: T: nazani anafanya humu eh? F: signe de victoire: T: eh: na: F: signe: T: njo kulamukia na kwake/ au lieux ya hivi [indicates other gestures]: ou bien hivi: F: oui/ T: alianza kufanya hii/ F: oui/ T: eeh/ sasa ile: ile vé: baliweka na yulu ya drapeau/ F: mm/ T: kama: ni victoire/ ahah/ njo balipikanaka na baANC: na bo balikuwa ingine banaisha kubachokoza kumbe tukombane: bo balikuwa de passage: vers Katanga/ F: mm/ T: bon banafika pa ile fasi: baLuba asema mwee ni kupita hapana: tupikane tu/ F: mm/ T: njo kupikana: kuuana sana kabisa kwa lakini/ kisha kuuana: Kalonji anabakia paka mwake: F: ni fasi fulani oa ni paka v? T: peut-être Ngandajika: F: mm/ T: balikombana mule/ mu Lukuta: balikombana/ F: mm/ T: mu Mbuji Mayi mwenyewe: balikombana/ na bantu balikufaka mingi kabisa/ mingi mingi mingi kuliko na ...?.. namna gani/ F: minaona nyumba: njo nyumba ya: ku mugini? T: ya pa mugini eeh/ F: kale ka nani ka: T: kanyumba ya bankuku/ F: kanyumba ya bankuku? T: eeh/ sababu kwetu: atuachake mulangu wazi eh? F: eeh/ T: ata vile unaona tunafanyaka mapaysages: na ?anoi:13 c'est que akuikalake wazi: kunikalaka tu milango yetu tunafungaka/ F: eeh/ T: sasa tunaachaka kule chini: tunatobola/ F: tundu/ T: bon kama nkuku inakuwa mangaribi: yote inaingia paka mule ndani/ F: eyo/ T: mm/ F: [laughs] |
23. F: Then, the war continues [Painting 55: Luba-Kasai against the National Army]. T: The war of... F: ... the Luba and the ANC. T: The Luba, yes. As I explained to you, Kalonji had already arrived and was staying there [in Mbuji-Mayi]. F: What about [this flag] with a V on it? T: Victory. F: Or... victory? T: Yes, it's like... F: The flag was red and green. T: Yes, with the victory [sign]. F: With the victory [sign]. T: It was [the flag of] Kalonji, right? F: Of Kalonji. T: That was because it was Kalonji's greeting. Whenever he met his people he made this little sign [shows V-sign]. F: I see, he made... T: I think he made it here, right. F: The sign of victory. T: Yes... F: A sign. T: He used it as his greeting, instead of doing like this or that [indicates other gestures]. F: Yes. T: Right, so they put that V on the flag. F: Mm-hmm. T: To indicate victory. Yes. So they fought the soldiers of the National Army who were passing through on their way to Katanga. But when some of the soldiers annoyed them the Luba said: "Let's fight." F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, when they got to that place, the Luba told them: "You are not coming through here, let's fight." F: Mm-hmm. T: So they fought each other and there was a lot of killing. After the blood bath, Kalonji stayed home in his place. F: Is the scene on the picture in some specific place? Or were they just flying the V? T: It could be Ngandajika. F: Mm-hmm. T: They fought there. Or Lukuta, they fought there, too. F: Mm-hmm. T: And they also fought in Mbuji-Mayi itself. Many, many people died. It was beyond imagination. F: The house I see, they are in a village? T: In a village, yes. F: And this little...31 T: Chicken coop. F: Chicken coop? T: Yes. Because back home we don't leave the doors open, right? F: I see. T: So, as you can see, we make these passages that stay open, but not our doors which we close. F: I see. T: So we leave [a passage] close to the ground, we make an opening. F: A hole. T: Right, that is were the chickens go in at night. F: I see. T: Mm-hmm. F: [laughs] |
| 24. sasa/ Katanga/ Katanga ...?... [Painting 56: Katanga Independent] T: eh: nabeba mbili eh? F: ndiyo/ T: eeh/ bon/ Katanga sawa vile nalikuelezea: ni: bâtiment ya trente juin sasa hapa eh? F: mm/ T: ilikuwa cinquantennaire/ zamani/ njo kusema: ni fasi Katanga ali: kamata: cham: njo chambre ya Katanga/ cham: ni chambre des réprésentants/ F: mm/ T: eh ilikuwa parlément tuseme eh? F: mm/ T: eeh/ ni kule: kulifany: njo busultani yake: ata banakwenda kubishana: balianza kubishana paka mule/ hata pa franga yake: ile franga ya Katanga alifanya: F: mm/ T: aliweka paka ile nyumba/ F: baliweka ile nyumba/ T: ilikuwa: ile nyumba ilikuwa pa ...franc/ F: mm/ T: picha ile/ F: mm/ T: eeh/ c'est que njo: date ya Indépendance: njo kwenye baliproclamer Indépendance ya Katanga alikuya/ |
24. Now, Katanga...[Painting 56: Katanga Independent] T: Yes, I brought two of those, right? F: Yes T: Well, then, about Katanga, is was as I explained to you. Today this is the building of June 30, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: It was then called the Cinquantennaire. This was where the Katanga chamber of representatives met. Let's just say it was the parliament. F: Mm-hmm. T: Right, this is where he governed and where they had their discussions. [This building] used to be on a bill of his [Tshombe's] money, this Katangese money he issued. F: Mm-hmm. T: He [Tshombe] put this building there. F: They put this building there. T: It used to be on a bill [of Katanga money]. F: Mm-hmm. T: Its picture. F: Mm-hmm. T: Yes, the date on the picture marks the proclamation of Katangese independence. |
| 25. F: mu le onze juillet/ T: mu onze juillet/ F: hii njo kama ni: [Painting 58: The United Nations Is Called In] T: appel de l'ONU/ F: à l'ON: à l'ONU/ T: à l'ONU/ F: nani alifanya appel? T: Lumumba/ F: Lumumba? T: Lumumba njo alifanya appel ile/ F: mm/ T: et puis bal'ONU balikuya: banafika mu: mu Kinshasa/ ile ni: nani: ni aérodrome ya Kinshasa/ Ndjili/ F: Ndjili? T: Ndjili eeh/ F: oui: donc: appel à l'ONU/ T: eeh/ F: aah/ T: oui/ na drapeau ya baAmericains iko kule: na bal'ONU iko kule: na ya Congo iko kule/ puisque balikuwa sawasawa ...?... F: cinquante sept/ T: balisaidiwa na bal'ONU/ [corrects] na baAmericains/ F: minaona drapeau ya ba: na ma: T: ya baAmericains oui/ c'est que balisaidiwa kwa ku: baAmericains njo balisaidia baCo: baCongolais/ juu ya kuita Ame: baAmericains/ shiku ile ilikuwa fête: ilikuwa drapeau tatu juu/ F: c'est vrai? T: aah/ F: ya ONU: T: ya ONU: ya Congo: na ya Amerique/ F: mm/ T: ile dra: ile avion: ni kambera: gambera/ avion de chasse eh? F: kambera/14 T: eeh/ F: na bale baONU bwekunda...?... T: na baONU: ni bwekunda oui/ [chuckles] couleur njo nilifanya vile/ F: [laughs] T: mais ni juste kwa lakini/ abakuye: F: mais: T: abakuye couleur yetu/ F: bana: banani? T: baONU/ F: ba: ba kabila gani? T: balikuwa baIndiens: balikuwa baGhanéens: F: mm/ T: balikuwa baEthiopiens: balikuwa makabila mingi/ F: kumbe ulifanya bo mwekunda? T: eeh/ nachanga tu couleur/ makabila ilikuwa ni kuchangana yote/ F: mm/ T: banachuka na ku avion kule nazania: |
25. F: [still referring to the preceding picture] On July 11 [the date of Katanga's secession]. T: On July 11. F: Now, this is... [Painting 58: The United Nations Is Called In].32 T: The appeal to the UN. F: To the UN, to the UN. T: To the UN. F: Who made the appeal? T: Lumumba. F: Lumumba? T: Lumumba made that appeal. F: Mm-hmm. T: And then the United Nations troops came and arrived at Kinshasa. This is the airport of Kinshasa, Ndjili. F: Ndjili? T: Ndjili, yes. F: Right, so it's the appeal to the UN. T: Yes. F: Ah, yes. T: Yes. And there is the American flag, besides those of the UN and the Congo, because the Congolese were... F: [interruption aside] [Number] fifty-seven. T: ... supported by the UN, [corrects] or rather by the Americans. F: I see the flag of... T: ... the Americans, yes. That's because they were helped by the Americans; they helped the Congolese. Because the American were called in, there was a celebration that day, that's why there were three flags. F: Is that so? T: Yes. F: Of the UN... T: Of the UN, the Congo, and America. F: Mm-hmm. T: The planes there [in the air] Canberra fighters, right? F: Canberra. T: Yes. F: And those red-skinned United Nations soldiers? T: The UN soldiers, they are red-skinned, you are right. [chuckles] It's just a color I chose. F: [laughs] T: But it is correct in the sense that they were not of... F: But... T: ... of our color. F: Who? T: The UN soldiers. F: What nationality were they? T: There were Indians and there were Ghanaians. F: Mm-hmm. T: There were Ethiopians, there were many nations. F: So you painted them red. Yes, I chose a different color, all the nations were different. F: Mm-hmm. T: [In the picture] they are deboarding the plane, I think. |
| 26. F: [rummaging, now picking up Painting 57: Fighting at the a Railway Overpass] ah ile ya Kabuika: T: ah citoyen Kabuika: F: ...?... T: ni wakati bantu banakimbilia mu foire/ [Painting 59: The Refugee Camp] F: oui oui/ T: balifika pale njo kuba ..?... F: ni kusema bantu baliki: kimbilia: bali: balipashwa bantu ku: kuingia ku foire/ ao bantu balikimbilia tu? T: balikimbilia/ bantu balikimbilia kule sababu: F: bantu ni baLuba? T: bak: baLuba: baLuba Kasai: baLuba Katanga: F: mm/ T: ba: Lulua: kabila ingine yote ilikimbilia kule juu balianza kubaua sasa/ F: mm/ T: pale Katanga inapata Indépendance: le onze juillet: allez anaanza kufwata ku nyumba tu: ukitoka: banakupika masasi: unakufa/ sasa pa kuikala ile: situation ilikuwa nguvu: bantu balikimbilia mule/ na kwenda kuikala ku: Foire/ F: juu ya nini iliitwa Foire? T: Foire? F: eh/ T: kwa sababu [chuckles]: wakati moja nazania balifanya ni Foire ya wapi? Foire ya Katanga/ Katanga alifanya Foire/ F: mm/ T: bon ile Foire: mulikuwa manifesta: ma ma: ma ma: manini? mamichezo ya kuachana eh? F: mm/ T: furaha mingi sana/ sawa pale bantu nabo balifanya banakwenda kule: balisema kumbe naisha tunafanya Foire yetu na shee/ mm? njo bilikuya/ F: si ku: ilikuwa ile fasi ya Foire? non? T: fasi ya Foire? non non/ ilikuwa fasi ingine: iliku: Foire ya: ya baLuba: c'est que camp de refugiés njo banaitaka/ F: eyo/ T: ilikuwa kule ku océan/ F: ku? T: océan/ F: océan? T: ...?... uliisha kufika kule? ooh ni paka mu Lubumbashi/ kule mwisho: kupita Bel Air/ F: kupita Bel Air: oui oui oui oui/ oui oui/ T: njo kule/ kuko na makaburi na sasa/ F: oui oui/ T: eh/ F: oui/ [pause] na ba: baONU banachunga: T: na baONU: banachunga: sawa balikuwa bo: balikuwa pour l'unité: na drapeau ya Congo/ iko juu: na drapeau ya l'ONU iko juu/ mm/ ndani bambata: tumbata mule ndani/ F: mm/ T: tumbuzi: tundeke: tubintu gani: tote: F: mm/ T: bon/ |
26. F: [rummaging, now picking up Painting 57: Fighting at the a Railway Overpass] Ah,the one by Kabuika. T: Ah, Mr. Kabuika. F: ...?... T: It was the time when people fled to the Foire camp [Painting 59: The Refugee Camp]. F: Yes, yes. T: When they got there they were.... F: That is to say, people fled. Were they made to go into the Foire camp, or did they take refuge there?33 T: They fled. People took refuge there because... F: "People" means Luba? T: Kas… Luba, Luba-Kasai, Luba-Katanga.34 F: Mm-hmm. T: The Lulua, all the other tribes ran away from there because they were being killed. F: Mm-hmm. T: When Katanga became independent, on July 11, that's what happened. [The Katangese] would say: "Get out." One would follow you to your house and when you got out they would shoot at you and you died. The situation was such that you could not stay [at home], so people fled there, they went to live in the Foire camp. F: Why was it called "Foire." T: Foire? F: Yes. T: Because [chuckles], at some time it was the Fair, the Katanga Fair. Katanga organized a Fair. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright, this Fair consisted of all sorts of manifestations -- or what was it again? -- games, right? F: Mm-hmm. T: There was a lot of joy. The people who organized this went there and said: "So we also have our Fair." Mm-hmm? That's what it was. F: So [the camp] was the place of the Fair, wasn't it? T: The place of the Fair? No, no. This was a different place, the Fair of the Luba, that is what they called the refugee camp.35 F: I see. T: It was out there, at [the place called] Ocean. F: At? T: Ocean. F: Ocean? T: ...?... haven't you been there? It's in Lumbumbashi, over there at the city limits, beyond [the part called] Bel Air. F: Beyond Bel Air, yes, yes. T: That's where it is. Today, there is a cemetery there. F: Yes, yes. T: Right. F: Yes. [pause] And the UN soldiers guard... T: The UN soldiers guard [the camp] and because they were for [national] unity, there is the flag of the Congo and the flag of the UN. Mm-hmm. Inside [the camp] there were ducks. F: Mm-hmm. T: Little goats, fowl, and what not, all sorts of small things. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. |
| 27. F: sasa: [Painting 60: The Secession in North Katanga] tunaona mu tableau ya: le Nord/ bubishi ilanza mu: Katanga: T: bon/ sawa bantu balikuwa mule ndani ya Foire: balianza kuuana: F: ya Nord Katanga: ni Kamina/ gare de Kamina/ T: Kamina/ cinquan: cinquante neuf/ sasa bo baliwaza asema non tutafanya namna gani? kumbe vile tu: tukimbie/ bengine asema twende ata kwetu kwenyewe tukakufie: ku lieu ya kuteswa tu mu Foire humu: F: mm/ T: na kufa kuisha maisha humu: twende/ nabo pale ...?... kuingia ku mashua: bakifika tu: katikati ya: ya mukini: Kasongo Nyembo: anabamba nayee pa ile fasi/ palikuwa Kasongo Nyembo moya: jina yake minasahabu/ alikuwa kufia hapa sasa huku/ balimuua ndani ya nyumba/ ku Lubumbashi huku/ F: hapa sasa? T: ah sasa tu/ mu septante deux/ F: c'est vrai? T: eh balimuua paka humu tu mu Lubumbashi/ F: si njo sultani? T: ah sul: apana/ apana Vanneur/ Vanneur ni huyu anaingia sasa/ F: Vanneur? T: Vanneur Kisula/ jina yake Vanneur: Kisula/ F: eyo/ T: eeh/ njo yee eko apa sasa/ mais ule alikuwa mbele: alikuwa pour Katanga: na drapeau alipla: ali: aliplanter mwake ni Katanga/ alianza kuua batu: bale ba kufika ku mashua: F: mm/ T: kukata bichwa: kubeba banamuke: kuya banamuke yabo: F: mm/ T: voilà/ tutoto kuua tu/ |
27. F: Now [Painting 60: The Secession in North Katanga] we are looking at a picture of North [Katanga], conflict started in Katanga. T: Alright. The way it was, people inside the Foire camp began to kill each other. F: [A picture] of North Katanga. This is Kamina, the railway station at Kamina. T: Kamina, [number] fifty-nine. So, those [in the camp] thought about this and said: "How are we going to do this? Let's just flee." Others said: "Let us go to our homes to die there rather than suffer here in the Foire camp... F: Mm-hmm. T: ... and die, finish our lives there, let's go." So they went on the train and when they got to the village of [chief] Kasongo Nyembo, he stopped the train there. It was the one who had the office of Kasongo Nyembo then, I forgot his name. He died here just recently, he was killed inside a house, here in Lubumbashi. F: Just now? T: Well, recently, in '72. F: Is that true? T: Yes, they killed him here in Lubumbashi. F: Wasn't he a chief? T: Ah, no longer. No that was [the one named] "Vanneur." He was the one who had taken the office recently. F: Vanneur? T: Vanneur Kisula. His name was Vanneur Kisula. F: I see. T: Yes. He is [the chief] right now. But his predecessor was siding with Katanga and he flew the flag of Katanga. He began to kill people, those that came with the train. F: Mm-hmm. T: Cutting off heads, taking away women so they would become theirs. F: Mm-hmm. T: That's it, killing small children. |
| 28. F: mm/ na vilevile hapa/ [Painting 61: Fighters Strafing a Village] T: hapa ni ma: F: maFouga Magister: T: ni kipande ya Malemba Nkulu: kipande ya Kabongo: F: mm/ T: kipande ya kule: ma: eh bale baLuba balikatala mambo ya: Tshombe kabisa/ balisema shee tuko pour l'unité: tuko tu juu na: juu ya: juu ya Lumumba/ F: mm/ T: bon bana...?... kutuma maFouga Magister: kwenda kubaua/ F: mm/ T: unaona vile bantu banakufa mingi pale: vuruma chini: mm/ |
28. F: Mm-hmm. And the same is happening here [Painting 61: Fighters Strafing a Village]. T: [What we see] here are ... F: the Fouga Magister. T: This happened in the region of Malemba Nkulu and Kabongo. F: Mm-hmm. T: In the region [up north] the Luba were totally opposed to Tshombe's machinations. They said: "We are for unity, we exist [as a nation] because of Lumumba. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. That is when they sent the Fouga Magister to kill them. F: Mm-hmm. T: [In the picture] you see many people dying, writhing on the ground. Mm-hmm. |
| 29. F: tena vilevile ku gare de Luena/ [Painting 62: Katanga Troops on a Train at Luena] T: gare ya Luena vile vile: basoldats ya Katanga banaanza kutoka kule: na mashua: banaanza kwenda asema twende: kufika ku frontière/ batakuta baLuba bale balianza kukatala asema benye kuingia kwetu: benye banakata njanja: na kwanza kuuana sasa pa ile fasi/ F: mm/ T: kule banauna: na haba wanauana: F: mm/ T: ni masashi ya kweli kweli iko napikana pale/ F: ndiyo/ T: soldats ya Katanga yulu: iko nafwata na: na avion/ F: eh/ T: ahah/ ni vile/ |
29. F: Then more of the same at the railway station of Luena [Painting 62: Katanga Troops on a Train at Luena]. T: The scene is at Luena station where Katanga soldiers are getting off the train. They are headed for the border where they will meet Luba who, in order to prevent them from entering their country, have cut the rails. So they start killing each other in that place. F: Mm-hmm. T: That is where they killed each other. F: Mm-hmm. T: And the bullets were really flying in this place when they shot each other. F: Yes. T: The Katangese soldiers had support from planes. F: I see. T: Ah, that's how was. |
| 30. F: tena ya mwisho: [Painting 63: The Katanga Women Protest] T: ya mwisho ni manifestation ya bafemmes Katangaises/ c'est que bo balianza ku: balikwendaka: siku moja: kwa kusema bal'ONU bende paka kwabo/ F: mm/ T: kwenda kubapika: miti: kum: ile ile: ile: ni ile tunatwangaka nayo: [points at pestle] F: mm/ T: mwiishi: tunaitaka asema mwiishi/ F: mm/ T: eh: munaitaka namna gani mwee? ?janeau? F: [hesitates] aahm? T: ?janeau ou bien? F: non: eh: ni: oui oui: ya kutwanga naye? T: ya kutwanga naye/ F: minasikia/ T: bon/ sasa: beko nafika ule manamuke njo asema ...?... kumupika: mwanamuke apikie mwanaume/ F: mm/ T: bon soldat anakatala: nazani ni vita pale: na bibi...?... banakukotana: bale na miti kule: banamuke bengine na miti na maibwe: F: mm/ T: mm/ banatafuta paka asema tuue tu: nabo balishirikaka: balipikaka masashi: balibauaka mingi sana/ njo ile mambo ilipitaka: mu partie ya pili ile tuna: fanya/ sijue sawa unaanza kusikitika asema kunabakia kiloko: mais minazania kunabakia mingi na zaidi/ F: [chuckles] T: sababu ni histoire/ F: mm/ T: mm? na ata mu hii minatumika: minakatulula15 mingi sana/ F: ndiyo/ T: eeh/ F: ah: utumike tu: u: uongeze/ T: kweli? F: juu ya: kuenea eh? T: kuenea: nakatulula: mingi: F: ongeze kujua ...?... T: sawa hii nalikuelezea leo ... naliongopa na sheria kwa lakini/ F: hapana: wapi/ iko bien/ bon: merci/ T: merci mingi/ |
30. F: Now the last one [Painting 63: The Katanga Women Protest].T: The last one is about a protest march organized by the "Women of Katanga." What happened was, that, one day, they went to tell the UN people that they should go home. F: Mm-hmm. T: The women beat the UN soldiers with wooden -- what do you call them? -- those sticks you use to pound grain [points to a pestle in the picture]. F: Mm-hmm. T: Mwishi, we call the mwishi [in Tshiluba?]. F: Mm-hmm. T: How do you call them, ?janeau36 F: No, wait. Yes, it's the thing you use for pounding? T: For pounding. F: I understand. T: Alright. Now, when they got there, this woman beat him. [The word was out]: Women should beat the men. F: Mm-hmm. T: Alright. The soldier resisted and, I think, there was fighting there. The one lady [in the picture and a soldier] are pulling each other. They have this pestle [between them] there. Other women had pestles and rocks. F: Mm-hmm. F: Mm-hmm. They were out to kill, and the [UN soldiers] got angry and started to shoot and they killed many. So these were the events in this second part of the series. Perhaps you regret that not much more is left. But I believe there is still a lot to come. F: [chuckles] T: Because that's history. F: Mm-hmm. T: Mm-hmm? And even in [the batch of paintings] I finished I left out a lot. F: Yes. F: Ah, just go on working, keep adding. T: Really? F: Until there is enough, right? T: Enough? I am leaving out a lot. F: Keep adding ...?... T: Still, about those I explained to you today, I was afraid I could get in trouble with the law. F: No, no way. This is good. Alright, thank you. T: Many thanks. |
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1
I have been unable to identify this word.
[back to main text] 2 See ECS bakuli, basin, large deep dish. [back to main text] 3 See ECS shavu, cheek. [back to main text] 4 Probably short for kupeleka plainte, a phrase current in Katanga Swahili. [back to main text] 5 Hypercorrection for anashuka; occurs several times. [back to main text] 6 From ku-kumba, too sweep. Notice the interesting double encoding of causation, lexically in French, morphologically in the Swahili verb. [back to main text] 7 Notice that T. responds with "upward" corrections of my kiloko and mweushi. This is an example of Katanga Swahili speakers simply "playing" with variants (T. does not consistently use kidogo or mweusi). [back to main text] 8 T. excuses him self for "lapsing" into d/r alternation, a feature of interference in Katanga Swahili. It is associated, according to my recollections, with age (the speech of older persons still rooted in Luba languages) and ethnicity (often used to parody speakers from Rwanda). [back to main text] 9 A rare case where a French verb stem is modified by a Swahili suffix. [back to main text] 10 Possibly banaturandaka, from kuranda, to cheat, to con a person. [back to main text] 11 See ECS ku-vua, bail out water. [back to main text] 12 Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 532: "pomona: in eens afrukken, écorcher du coup..." [tear off]. [back to main text] 13 Perhaps anneau, a ring, to indicate that the opening is round. [back to main text] 14 T. is not sure about the pronunciation of this term which was quite popular in Katanga (often kambela, with the plural tumbela). [back to main text] 15 Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 238: "-katuka:...gonfler," "-katulula: dégonfler." [back to main text] |
1
Recording interrupted. T. seemed to ask whether he could listen to the tape and I signaled to go on with the session.
[back to main text] 2 Seeing the large batch before us, T. suggests that we meet to record his narrative every time he finishes five paintings. [back to main text] 3 This is a free translation, based on the context where the actions of the guards are described. Grammatically, the phrase starting ule njo... should be: "This one [a prisoner] took off his clothes." [back to main text] 4 The counting is off by one. [back to main text] 5 The monument in the painting shows a small replica of the Atomium, a landmark at the Brussels World Fair. [back to main text] 6 The term used in the original, mpembeni, on the side, is no help in localizing the structures of which T. speaks. My translation relies on the picture. [back to main text] 7 After Knokke-Le Zoute, the Belgian seaside resort town. [back to main text] 8 This must refer to a smaller business or factory; I could not find the acronym on the lists I consulted. As far as I can recall, pilerie could also be the name for a place where palm- or ground-nuts were processed. [back to main text] 9 T. got entangled between an English loan, which he put on a note book shown in the picture and pronounced buknot, and a Swahili gloss. His getting stuck was what we found funny. [back to main text] 10 In the original T. starts to qualify the hole by saying ni kal which I take was to be kaloko, small. [back to main text] 11 The original has -andika, to write. [back to main text] 12 T. seems to sense that we are off with our count. [back to main text] 13 A possible translation of the sense of this bungled phrase, assuming that nalikotola in the original should have been nalikokotola. [back to main text] 14 This means that, during our conversation, we decided to look at the historical version. The other one, however, became part of the series reproduced in Remembering the Present. [back to main text] 15 Here and in the following I inquire about inscriptions on buildings in the picture that was not reproduced in Remembering the Present. [back to main text] 16 This is my guess at the meaning of pandaka in the original. [back to main text] 17 The picture is divided into a portrait of Lumumba on the [viewer's] left and the scene of the uprising on the right. [back to main text] 18 My remark is aimed at the sketchy impression given by one of the versions before us. His answer confirms that it was not made for this series but to be sold as genre painting. That it became part of the collection was an accident. [back to main text] 19 Assuming that tulikotola in the original should be tulikokotola, see above. [back to main text] 20 It shows that my aside, based on stories I had heard, made T. uncomfortable; he does not want to elaborate on the topic. [back to main text] 21 T. here points to space outside the picture. [back to main text] 22 The demonstrative pronoun here (and elsewhere) has an ironical connotation. [back to main text] 23 Lit. something like "he went away carrying the government." [back to main text] 24 See above the case of Painting 40 where T. had brought two versions, one "historical," intended for the series, the other destined for the genre market. [back to main text] 25 Repetition here does not express impatience; the two "yes" are pronounced in a pensive tone. This is often the function, or effect, of repetition: it gives the speakers time to reflect and may become part of the dialogue, showing that they are engaged in reflecting together. [back to main text] 26 Because the sound recording does not contain indexical information, this interruption is not quite clear. It seems that I pointed out some spots on the painting. T. gives instructions how to remove them. [back to main text] 27 I am using several synonyms for the expression banatomboka, lit. they explode, a term often referring to political riots. The translation of the last phrase is my best guess at the meaning of masashi which I take to be ma-sachées, bags. [back to main text] 28 What makes this paragraph a bit confusing is that T. speaks of two events without transition: recruitment of civilians for the Katanga Gendarmes and the rounding-up of soldiers loyal to the central government. [back to main text] 29 The reference to tattoos (which, in this part of Africa and elsewhere are not marks made with pigment but incisions that leave raised scars) is ironical but has the flavor of authentic recollections. My questions that follow show that I was somewhat confused about who was who in this picture; I also mistook the loading of the train for prisoners getting off. T. remains patient and explains. [back to main text] 30 The repetitions and the back-and forth in this passage show that we are not certain about the numbering; T. senses that the count is off but, in the end, politely agrees. Similar apparently redundant exchanges occur throughout (see, e.g., paragraph 25 below), most often to gain time for formulating a question or an answer. [back to main text] 31 Pointing to the hole, close to the ground, in the house facing the viewer. [back to main text] 32 Here should have come Painting 57: Fighting at a Railway Overpass, by T.'s assistant, Kabuika; we come back to it in paragraph 26. [back to main text] 33 The question was to determine whether that camp was a refugee camp or a concentration camp. It was not clear to me then and still has to be determined (although it was probably both). [back to main text] 34 That must either be a mistake (unless some Luba-Katanga opposed the Katanga secession, see comments to Painting 61) or the last part of the phrase is an elaboration on the term Luba. [back to main text] 35 This gets more and more difficult to disentangle. T. now suggests that the name was not metonymic (taken from the location of the trade fair) but ironic, a counter-Fair for the Kasaians. [back to main text] 36 This is based on my transcription of the French term T. was suggesting (which does not exist; the French term is pilon). The word I transcribed as mwiishi may be a Luba equivalent of ECS mchi. But it is surprising that T. did not remember the Katanga Swahili word kitwangio for this common household item. [back to main text] |
Van Avermaet, E. and B. Mbuya. (1954). Dictionnaire kiluba - français. Tervuren: Musée Royale de l'Afrique Centrale.
© Transcript & Translation by Johannes Fabian
Archived: 5 October 1999
Last revised: 6 June 2000 (added hyperlinks from notes to reference), 24 August
2001 (lay-out of toc changed, APS Volume number added), 31 October 2001 (ISSN
added)
