1. F: ni kusema: mama: si ya: ya kukuuzi tena kuomba vile: eh: sawa vile uliniambia mara ingine: mais: hata Mufuta:
yee anasikia vile/ kama: kama: kama tulisikia ni kintu moya/ ala: alafu kuandika ni kintu ingine/
F: na: hii masi: machine inatusaidia tu... kufungula sauti:
F: ... kusikia sauti mara ingine/
F: utaona/ mutapata co: copie:
R: mm na ya: na prières vile vile?
F: na: na copie vile vile/
R: ya prières: ya ile siku:
R: ça va/
F: na: na ku: na nani na enregistrement vile vile inatukumbusha/
F: ah? maneno sawa: [pauses] sawa sasa tunasumbulia tusumbulia:
R: [interrupting me] sasa vile vile bilikuwa mu nani: bya chiKasai: si kulikuwa malugha ingine?
F: yote/ yote/
R: ah wee unaweka?
R: sawa/ mm muzuri/
F: [overlapping] niliweka yote tu/ yote tu/
F: muzima/ lakini: ili: eh: nilifanya kosa moya: ku mwanzo/ kumbe enregistrement inaanza paka: après une heure/
après une heure/ mais ile tunafanya: tuta:
F: tutaajouter/ tutaajouter/
R: una: unafanya ya bya ku mbele byote ya bi:
F: oui: nilifanya: nilifanya hapa nani: ya: kosa ku bande: nili: nilipiga hii bouton:
F: pa fasi ya hii/
F: donc: mais:
R: ku mwanzo?
F: tena niko naye hapa/
R: kweli eh?
R: bande uko naye?
R: ...?... tusikie?
F: oui oui/ sasa ao ku: mu mwisho?
F: tusumbulie mbele:
R: ah bon ça va/ bon/ nani: eeh: ah pardon... [recording interrupted]
1. F: What I am saying, mama, when I ask (for your permission to record) this is not to bother you once more since
you already talked to me the other day. But – and Mufuta
 understands this – having listened to something is one thing,
recording it is another.
F: And this machine helps us. By turning on the sound...
F: ... (we can) listen to the voice again.
F: You'll see. You are going to get a copy.
R: Mm. Also of the (recorded) prayers.
F: And also a copy of that (recording).
R: Of the prayers, that day.
F: And this recording will also be a reminder for us.
F: You understand? Because like this, [pauses] like now, we just keep chatting.
R: [interrupting me] Now, that (meeting) was partly in Tshiluba. And weren't there some other languages
F: Everything. Everything (was recorded).
R: Ah, you put (it on the recorder)?
R: In that case, mm, fine.
F: [overlapping] I put everything (on the recorder), everything.
R: I see.
F: The entire event. However, because I made a mistake at the beginning the recording only starts after an hour.
After an hour. But we are going to do something (about that).
R: Are we going to add (the missing part)?
F: We are going add it.
R: Did you do everything that was before?
F: Yes, (but) I made a mistake with the tape. I pressed this button.
F: Instead of that one.
F: So (that's what happened). But...
R: (It happened) in the beginning?
F: I still have (the tape) here with me.
R: Is that true?
R: You have the tape with you?
F: Here it is.
R: Should we listen to it?
F: Yes, yes. Now or afterwards?
F: Let's first have our conversation.
R: Ah, alright. There is something, well, excuse me... [recording interrupted]
2. F: mu siku ingine: tulikuwa kusumbulia: surtout juu ya: namna gani ulianza: mu hii njia ya:
R: eheh/ [pause]
F: ni kusema: minakumbuka: uli: uliniambia kama hata baba yako...
R: alinifundisha sala/
R: ...ah dépuis: eh: dépuis: dépuis sept ans/
F: dépuis sept ans?
R: eheh/ kuni: kunifundisha namna ya kusala/ kuniuzaka kitabu kaloko:
D: pale...?... à sept ans/
R: à sept ans eh? bon ça va/ mi siyue bien/ [laughs]
R: mi niko muntu mukubwa: mi siyue/
F: tena tunasemaka mu Swahili/
F: tena: tunasemaka mu Swahili/
R: mm: siye...
D: ...?... [in Tshiluba]
R: fête hapa sasa/ niko na sept ans: à sept ans: à mon age eh?
R: bon/ uliisha kufungula?
F: tangu ulikuwa...
R: uliisha kufungula/
F: tunasumbulia tu
R: maa: mama mama/
R: bon/ [chuckles] mu miaka saba: tunakuya déjà: na baba wangu alinifundisha namna ya kusala/
F: namna ya kusala namna gani? mu: mulisadi:
R: baba yetu uliyo mbinguni:
R: kufanya: mbele: Notre Père:
R: kiisha: nani: ananifundisha: je vous salue Marie:
R: namna ile/ njo kusema: kwanzia ku butoto: eh? wetu butoto hata mi mwenyewe: kama naeneza: un an et démi: ya
kwanza kujua hata kusema: ni paka sala/
R: eh: alianza kutufundisha vile: namna ya kuomba: kusadi: kuya taya jina na Mungu: weee: sasa miaka saba
inaenea: aliniuzia kitabu yenye kuandika mi tshiKasai asema ?
lala padisambele/ njo kusema kakitabu ka pa mambo: ya sala/
F: mm/ mambo ya sala/
R: eheh/ sasa ile kitabu nilisoma mu vie yangu: yote/ minajua kusala: namna ile: kusala na heshima: kusala:
mwenye kufunga macho: kusala: kujua asema ni unasadi na Mungu: ile mu miaka ile: ya kidogo ile/
2. F: The other day we had a conversation, above all about how you began on the way to...
R: Yes. [pause]
F: I remember you told me that it was already your father...
R: ...who taught me prayer.
F: He taught you...
R: ...yes, ever since, since, since I was seven years old.
F: Since you were seven?
R: Yes. He taught me how to pray and he bought me a small book.
D: ...?... when you were seven.
R: When I was seven? Alright (if you say so), I really don't know. [laughs]
R: I've grown up, I don't know (about that).
F: Also, we are talking Swahili.
F: We are talking Swahili
R: Mm. We...
D: ...?... [in Tshiluba]
R: Soon it will be my birthday. At my age, (what do I know about the time) when I was seven?
R: Alright. Did you start recording?
F: (I did) when you were (beginning to speak).
R: You started recording.
F: Let's just talk.
R: Mama, mama, (how about that).
R: Alright. [chuckles] When I was seven my father already taught me how to pray.
F: What do you mean, how to pray? You prayed ...
R: … Our Father in heaven.
R: First of all, [in French]"Our father."
R: Then – what was it again? – he taught me [in French] Hail Mary.
R: That's how it was. In other words, it began in our childhood, right? I myself, when I got to be a year and
a half and began to speak, from then on it was only prayer.
R: Yes. He began to teach us how to pray, to say the name of God. And so it went on for a long time until I
reached the age of seven. That was when he bought me a book in Tshiluba, titled ...?..., a little book about prayer.
F: Mm. About prayer.
R: Yes. Now, my whole life I have been reading this book. I knew how to pray, to pray with reverence, with my
eyes closed, knowing you pray to God. That's how it was in those years when I was little.
3. sasa: kunaisha: minafika miaka: munane: minafanya
prémière communion/ mu quarante-trois/ mille neuf cent
quarante-trois/ pale minabakia: minafanya: prémière
communion yangu minakamata communion: [pauses] après tulikwenda na
bamama bengine badada yangu:
R: kwa kutafuta: milulu: ku pori/ ile wakati: tunarudia distance dilefu: tunasema ni: mbali iko kwanza hata:
R: tunarudia ku mabushiku: ku ma: dix-neuf heures/ nju ya kurudia mu internat/
R: nilikuwa mu ?kukonera mutoto tuloko/
R: pale minafika mu njia: [pauses] karibu na nyumba ya Mungu: mbali yee eko kwanza/ minalokota kintu: chini: sawa
shikish/ ile: lumeya: cinquante centimes:
F: oui oui/
R: ya Albert/ minaangaria asema: angaria: minalokota: likuta/ pale minabeba minaweka mukono: minaona bien: haina
lumeya: ni [pauses] ni hostie de ...?.../
R: ni ile: communion/
R: minaangaria hivi minaangaria ni communion/ mu wa
mukono/ pale nililokota chini: niliwaza asema: ni likuta
akili ya butoto juu ya kuuza hata kintu: minaona kintu
kizuri/ minaweka: minaona ni communion/ pale minaona communion:
sema minaonyesha: minauliza dada yangu asema: bale bakubwa
ana badada yangu: propres/
F: [overlapping] ah/
R: minabaelezea sema: minalokota: likuta: minaona haina yo: ni communion/ njo niliangaria mbele hivi/ sema
minaweka mukono: iko hapa: minaonyesha mukono hamuna kintu: hamuna tena kitu/ hii mukono ya gauche/
3. Then, when I got to be eight I went to first communion. In '43. In 1943. At the time I stayed
 – that was when I took my first communion. [pause] (Some time) later
we went out with some women, my elder sisters among them.
R: To go looking for insects in the bush. We had gone a long distance before we returned, something like three
R: It was dark around seven in the evening when we went back to (our) boarding school.
R: I used to see (things) ever since I was a tiny child.
R: Then I got to the road. [pauses] I was near the church I picked up from the ground something (I had seen from)
far away, like a small coin, ...?...
 [in French] fifty cents.
F: Yes, yes.
R: [The one] with the picture of (King) Albert.
 I looked at it, saying look, I picked up a small coin.
 I took it away in my hand. When I looked at it carefully (it turned
out that) it was not a coin. [pauses] It was a host.
F: It was what?
R: This communion (host).
F: I see.
R: What I saw was a communion (host), in my hand. I
thought that it was a small coin I had picked up from the
ground, and thinking like a child I saw it as something
lucky, I could use it to buy something. I put it (in my hand)
and then I saw it was a communion (host). Once I realized it
was a communion (host) I said (to myself) I show this to
my older sister(s) and ask her (about it) – actually they
were adults, not really my older sisters.
F: [overlapping] Ah.
R: I'll explain to them how I picked up a small coin and saw that it was not a communion (host). That was
when I first looked at it. I put into my hand, there it was, but when I showed my hand there was nothing in it,
nothing, in my left hand.
4. après: minabakia mu vie yangu: kusadi: kuomba: tubintu tule niko nako besoin: njo Mungu alisaidia juu ya tu
masomo yangu: kuikala na be: na benzangu kucheza: ile saa mi nilikuwa kule kulikuwa ku Mission Mérode: njo: eh:
nilikuwa ile wakati/ alakini bazazi yangu balibakia bo: mu Miba ya Mbuji-Mayi/
R: eheh: baba yangu alikuwa mwalimu wa: mwalimu wa: mu Mbuji-Mayi:
F: ku mission/
R: ku mission: nani: Bonzola/
R: eheh/ paka mule mu Mbuji-Mayi Miba/ après nilianza kwenda vacances: njo nilienda: masikio wangu ilikuwa wazi/
na macho yangu ilikuwa wazi:
R: niko naona bintu: mi minaweza sema bantu banabiona
kumbe bantu bo: habaone/ masikio iko inasikia: mambo ingine
kama tunaikala hivi: minasikia mas: ma: ma: nani: mimbo ya
Mungu: wala: kama minaikala minaona bantu ma misululu:
baliisha kuvwala m: manguo mweupe bien: beko naimba: beko
naimba: beko na: ni sawa: sawa beko natukuza Mungu/ alakini
mi sione: kule beko naimbia: ni fasi munene kabisa eh/
pardon: leo nitakuelezea yote wazi wazi vile ilikuya/
F: [overlapping] mm/
R: sasa kama ni nasikia vile bantu beko naimba: niko
naona: minawaza asema banaona/ kama minauliza: asema
mulianza kuona bale bantu bale bazimu? bana: sema: tiens/
maladi/ nitaona: baba ananiita nani: baba: uko na maladi ya
kichwa? minasema: ah:
[claps] sasa ni ku njia ku...
F: uliona sawa ku: kulala: ao?
R: ahaah/ hivi/
F: [overlapping] ...?...mu siku?
R: hata: eh eh: hivi/ hata hivi/ hata hivi/ minaangaria inje:
R: minaangaria minaona/
R: wale minaangaria: minaona/ mi sisikie ma ku exprès/ pardon/ si minaikala hivi? mi siwaza lakini minaona/
R: hii/ kama minaona vile: niko najiuliza asema: kama banasema: hapana kusema bitu bya vile/ bananinonga ...?.../
asema: ni kitu gani? kama bantu banaikala: banakuya bengine: kama eko natafuta kufanyika mambo hata ya mijizi: kama
muntu: hana bien: ko hata na buloji: anaikala hivi: utamuvumbula/
R: paka hivi/ nitamuelezea/ ningali katoto: niko namuambia/
4. After that I spent my life praying, asking for the little things I needed. It was God who helped me with my
education, to live and play with children of my age. I was then at the Mérode Mission,
 that's where I was at the time. But my parents lived in Miba
 in Mbuji-Mayi.
F: I see.
R: Yes, my father was a teacher in Mbuji-Mayi.
F: At the mission.
R: At the mission – what was the name again? – Bonzola/
R: Yes, there around Mbuji-Mayi and Miba. Later, when I began to go home on vacation, I went around with my ears
and eyes open.
R: I saw things. I could tell people about things they
did not see. We would be together and my ears heard
things. I heard – how shall I say – divine hymns. Or I would
(just) sit there and see people in a procession. They were
wearing beautiful white clothes and they kept singing
(hymns) glorifying God. But I could not see them (distinctly). It
was a vast place where they were singing. Sorry,
 today I'll explain all this to you in detail, (exactly) how it
F: [overlapping] Mm.
R: So, as I heard people singing and saw this, I thought
that those (who were with me) saw it, too. When I asked
them, did you see those people, those spirits, they said,
really? (She is) sick. Then my father called me and said, are
you sick in your head? I said, ah [claps]. Then (it
happened) when I was on the road to...
F: You saw this while you were asleep, right?
R: Not at all, just like that.
F: [overlapping] ...?... in daylight?
R: Yes, just like that, just like that. I looked.
R: I looked and I saw.
R: Those people, I looked and I saw (them).
R: I looked at them and saw them. Sorry, I did not listen to anything in particular. Sorry. I was just sitting
there, no? I didn't imagine it, I saw it.
R: When I saw (things) like that, I considered (what
would happen). People would tell me not to talk about such
things. They would bother me, saying what is this? People
would sit around and then others came, (among them) (like)
someone who was looking for what to do with habitual thieves
or when a person was not well due to sorcery. If the one
(who was responsible) was there I would expose him.
R: I would tell him about it, just like that. (Even though) I was still a small child, I would tell him.
5. après: minabakia: miaka: kumi na tatu: eheh [chuckles] treize ans/
F: treize ans?
R: minaenda ku internat ya Mikalay/ minaisha sa...
F: ...mu Kasai kule/
R: eeh: Mikalay/ minaisha: sixième:...
F: moment/ moment/ [recording briefly interrupted]
F: no: mais:
R: minaenda ku Mikalay/ minafika kwa...
F: ...ilikuwa: sawa miaka?
R: kumi na tatu na nusu/
F: kumi na tatu?
R: eeh/ treize ans et démi/
R: eeh/ minaenda ku Mikalay/ minafika ku Mikalay/ minafunda: niko najitrouver: paka vile: kama minasadi: [pauses]
pardon: niko nakuexpliquer bien sasa/ kama tuko mu chapelle: kama tuko tunasadi: nasahabu sawa hakuna bantu/
R: kama tuko mu chapelle: mu misa hata ya busubuyi: kama minajiconcentrer hivi: mina: sahabu: sawa hakuna bantu/
R: sasa minasikia sawa: niko naona bya ku onaona vile bantu beko naimba: bengine na ma: clairons: beko naimba
bien: nitaweza ku: fasilia butamu ya musique: bananisahabu mu nyumba ya Mungu/
R: balienda mu: réfectoire: kula/ minakushtu: eh:
siyatoke: minatoka minabakutanisha / sasa: basoeurs baliona/
balianza kuniuliza lakini habakujua kitu/ balianza kuniuliza
asema: ni nini unabakiaka vile mu: nyumba ya Mungu? nasema
niko naona sawa...?...tu/ [claps] kunaisha/ sasa siku
ingine: nilianza kama minaikala minaona maona: minasema sasa
batoto bengine banakwenda ku ma ...?...
soeur Jean- Dominique sema: Regina: saa ingine alionaka bantu bengine/ anatuelezea tu bananiulize/ nilianza
kufuchika/ asema: eh: sema/ sasa wee unaonana bantu ba namu ka: mm: ba namna gani? nasema mi sibaone hivi/
saa ingine haina vis-à-vis/ saa ingine haina vis-à-vis/ saa ingine: ni hivi: hakuna mawazo: pardon: siweze
kuexpliquer/ utaweza kuwaza asema: ni mawazo/ hapana/ minafika/ minafika tu bya byenewe/
R: ah: inanifikia paka hivi/ minaona/
R: pardon/ example kama tunaikala na weye hapa/ she: sawa weye/ naona unaikala/ saa ingine: [pauses] ba: unavwala
kintu kingine chasiyo weye/
F: [overlapping] oui/
R: voilà/ eheh/ sasa minaona asema non:
R: a: a: ana muzuri/ mi mwenyewe mu roho yangu/
R: minaikala kimya/
5. Then – I was still thirteen [chuckles], well [in French] thirteen years old.
F: Thirteen years?
R: I went to boarding school at Mikalay. I finished...
F: ... (that's) in the Kasai there.
R: Yes, Mikalay. I finished sixth grade...
F: ...(wait) a moment. [recording briefly interrupted]
F: No, but (I was going to ask).
R: I went to Mikalay, I arrived when (I was) ...
F: ...what was the year?
R: ...thirteen and a half.
R: Yes, [in French] thirteen years and a half.
R: Yes, (that was) when I went to Mikalay. I got to Mikalay and studied. (There) I found myself in a situation in
which, when I was praying [pauses] – sorry, now I am going to explain this to you in detail. When we were in chapel,
saying prayers, I would forget that there were people (around me).
R: When we were in chapel, during early mass, I would concentrate myself such that I was not aware of people.
R: Then I heard – it was like a vision – people singing, some of them playing bugles. They sang beautifully. I
could compare this to the pleasure (lit. sweetness) you feel (when you listen to) music. (The others) forgot me in
F: I see..
R: ...and went to the dining hall to have their meal. I
woke up, I was still there. Then I left and joined the
others. Now, the Sisters observed this and began to ask me
about it but had no idea what it was. They began to ask me,
why are you staying behind in church? I said, I see (things)
[claps], that's all. On another day, I was sitting
there, having visions, I told the other children about it
and they went to (inform) the Sisters. Sister Jean-Dominique
said, sometimes Regina keeps seeing other people. She
explained this to us and (told the other children) they should
just ask me about that. I began to hide this and when I was
asked, what is this, how is it that you see other people, I
said I don't see them just like that. At times (when it
happens) it is not face-to-face. Sometimes it is not
face-to-face. Sometimes it is like – there is no thought (of
it), sorry, I can't explain. You could think that it
is just thoughts (I have). No. I come to it, I come to it by
R: Yes. It just happens to me. I see (it).
R: Sorry. For example, as we are sitting here together with you I see you sitting (there). It could happen
[pauses] that you are wearing something else, not what you are wearing now.
F: [overlapping] Yes.
R: There it is. Yes. But as I see it (I tell myself) no.
R: This is no good. (It is) me, in my soul.
R: I stay silent.
6. sasa minabakia vile: [pauses] ku Mikalay wee mupaka dix-sept ans et démi/
R: minaisha masomo: [pauses] minakuya: nilitafuta kuingia mu bikira: basoeurs ?kalmer/
R: eheh/ sasa kama minalala ku bushingishi sasa...
F: [overlapping] kalmer?
R: eh mu kalmer/ siku ingine hapana/ nilitafuta kuingia/
minaenda asema nitaingia/ kama minalala ku bushingishi/
papa aliitika: niingia mu basoeurs bakalmer: maman njo
kukatala/ bantu mbili banaachana/ mama alianza kusema: wende ku
bukweli: mu kazi: hana batoto: uendelesha famille: utamujua
baba asema: fanya kila wee Mungu anakuonyesha: unataka/
R: sasa: siku moya: niko mwenye kulala: mwenye kuongojea
juu nirudia mu: mu: bus: nienda ku busoeurs: minaona
tunafanya examen/ [pauses] minatokea: ni prémière na:
nonante pour cent: mu: mafundisho ya mambo ya Mungu: tulikwenda:
basoeurs: na baprêtres: bamingi: mi minatokea prémière:
mina: kiisha: minafanya vi: minalota ile ndoto mara trois/ mia:
mara tatu/ mu mara ya tatu mule: mara ya tatu bananielezea
asema: angaria: weye utakwenda ku bukweli utazala batoto/
alakini utapata: ah: utajua paka Mungu/ angaria diplôme/
una: bananipe diplôme: yenye kuandika grand fruit/ ya mambo
F: ni? ni?
R: grand fruit ya mambo ya Mungu/ bananipa diploma vile/
R: yenye kuandika grand fruit/ ku bushingishi: ku bushingishi sasa [pauses] unasikia?
R: sasa mina: minalamuka: minasema non/ mimi natafuta kuenda sasa ku bukweli: juu ya nini minaanza kulota bichwa
bya: bya hivi? kazi yangu yenyewe mu internat: nilikuwa mu: wa mu sacristie: kusafisha:
R: mankopo ya nani: ya: mahostia: kusafisha: manguo kut: kuweka: manguo ya baprètres: bintu bya vile/
6. So, that's how I lived [pauses] in Mikalay until I was seventeen and a half.
R: I finished school [pauses] (and then) I wanted to enter the Sisters' (convent) at "Kalmer."
R: Yes. Now, when I went to sleep at night...
F: [overlapping] (What is this) "Kalmer?"
R: Yes, at "Kalmer." Sometimes (I told myself) no. But
then again, when I went to sleep at night, I
told myself, I am going to do it. Father agreed that I
should join the Sisters, Mother was against it, the two of them
differed. Mother said go and get married, there are no
children in that (line of) work. You should raise a family,
(that is how) you will know God. Father said do whatever God
shows you and you like.
R: Now, one day, I was a sleep waiting (for a message
telling me) whether I should go back or go and become a
Sister. What I saw was that we were taking an exam [pauses]
and I came out first, with 90% in religion (lit. matters of
God]. We were walking [in a procession] the Sisters, the
Priests, many people, and I came out first. Eventually I had
this dream three times. Three times. The third time I was
told look, you are going get married and have children. That
is how you will know God. Look at your diploma, they gave
you a diploma with "passed with distinction" in
F: What was this?
R: Passed with distinction in religion, that's the diploma I got.
F: I see.
R: It was written "with distinction." (That happened) during the night, during the night [pauses] – you
F: I do.
R: Then I woke up and told myself no, I am going to get married. Why do I begin dreaming this sort of stuff? (By
the way), my job at the boarding school was with those who worked in the sacristy, cleaning ...
R: ...the chalices holding the hosts, laying out the priests' vestments, that sort of thing.
7. après: minatoka: nini: minaanza kubaki na ndoto/ sasa: kulikuwa babwana mingi beko nakuya juu ya kuniona/ niko
minamuambia Mungu: minatwanga magoti minasema: nitafanya sasa ya neuf jours/ ile neuf jours: ule bwana atakuya mu
neuvième jour: hata ni mubaya: hata atakuwa namna gani: hata ni maskini: nitamupenda ule bwana/ minaanza prières/
pendant neuf jours: hakukuwa muntu mule kati ya neuf jours/
R: neuvième jour: papa: ali: anaenda ku poste: lwake kuangaria: anakutanisha mukanda moya: ya muntu hatumujue/
R: anasoma mukanda: [pauses] ni ya hapa pa Nestor/ huyu bwanangu/ inaandika ndani ya mukanda: ni mimi Kamba
Nestor/ minatafuta: [pauses] kuoa mutoto yako: [pauses] minatumikaka: mu poste/ opérateur/
R: baba wangu ni commerçant géneral: mimi niliisha kuyua
mutoto yako: nililota ndoto hivi/ bananionyesha:
addresse yako hii/ mimi: jina yake ni Tshitamba Régine/
?laji ikala yulu ya mulima:ya muchanga: mwenye kuentourée na:
file: yenye kukata mafloeurs/
R: banamuuliza asema: bibi yako yo huyu: utaoa?
F: ku ndoto?
R: ku ndoto/ njo vile/ sasa...
F: yee alikuwa wapi?
R: yee alikuwa huku/ mi kule...
R: eeeh hapa Lubumbashi: ni mutoto wa humu/
R: sasa mi mitaoa paka: huyu: bibi: hata ni mwenye kufa ndicho: hata wa namna gani: nitamuoa yee/
R: si unasikia mi nilifanya na mi: neuf jours ya carême/ juu ya banitumie bwana: ule Mungu yee: anapenda/ ni
kweli: [pauses] baba anakuya na kusoma mukanda: ananielezea: minasema: ye: Mungu asifiwe/ huyu bwana: hata ni muzee:
hata ni wa nini: mi niliitika/ yee: baba anatupa mukanda asema [claps] uko bumbafu/ bwana hamujua hamuona: uko
namupenda/ babwana beko nakuya hapa:
R: hautaki: unataka huyu wa bule anatuma mukanda muadresse/ minasema: soma kwanza hii mukanda yake/ anasoma:
ananipa ...?... sema: hapana sema Mungu anamutupa/ [claps]
R: papa: nikale kimya: nasema bon: tuangarie/ tunajibu sisi yote mikanda: aliniandikia: aliandikia na papa asema:
...?...nakuya/ baba anamuandikia mukanda anamuelezea asema: kwangu mutoto: situmake bule hivi/ wee ufika hapa/ mu
Kasai: kuonana bibi/
R: kama munapendana: njo utarudia naye Lubumbashi/ yee
anasema bon: [pauses] kama ni vile: nitakuya: nitafika: le
quatre: avril/ tulikuwa mu mars/ [pauses] mille neuf cent
cinquante-trois/ anasema muzuri/ le quatre banafika/ nilianza
kutokea mu nyumba ya Mungu kusadi:
R: banafika banajipresenter kuko: Abbé moja Tshilay
Georges: juu yee: zamani alikuwa connâitre wa ule Abbé/ pale
alikuwa hivi banangu/ njo anamuuliza si munayua ku
...?...Paul? mwalimu Paul? hivi na hivi/ yee anasema bon: minamujua/
sema unafanya nini sema? unakuya vile kuoa vile mutoto yake/
balikuwa na baba yake Kamba Paul/
R: eheh/ anafika: [pauses] tunaonana: [pauses]
hatuelezana hata asema: unanipenda wala tunasungumuza non/ paka
hivi tunaonana sema: Mungu asifiwe/ ananileza asema: hivi
hivi tunafika/ iko mwenye kutuma/ minasema: ...?... mu jina
la bwana lakini tutafanya mariage/ anafika le quatre:
[pauses] le onze avril: tunafanya mariage/
F: [overlapping] kweli?
R: eh: hatufanya vya ...?... tout ça: anadoter: banasumbulia na bakubwa: minabakia kwetu/
R: [claps] bunakatika mu le onze avril: tunafanya mariage/
F: alikuwa déjà na mali yote: byote?
R: byote/ manguo yangu ya mariage nilifanya na ...?.../
R: yee alikuwa na byote/ [with emphasis] juu alikuwa tayari: na baba yake/ bote balipenda vile vile/
7. Then I left (the school) but a dream kept staying with me.
were lots of (prospective) husbands coming to see me. I told
God (about them), I got down on my knees and said, now I am
going to do a novena. There is a husband who will come on
the ninth day. He may be unattractive, whatever, he may be
poor, but I will love this husband. I began (saying) prayers
during nine days, no one was there for nine days.
R: On the ninth day, Father went to the post office to look for his mail when he found a letter from a person we
R: He read the letter [pauses], it was from Nestor here,
 my husband. In the letter it was written, I am Kamba Nestor, I
want to [pauses] marry your daughter, [pauses] I work as an operator at the post office.
R: My father has a general store. I know your daughter, I had this dream. I was shown this address of yours and
that her name is Tshitamba Régine. She was sitting on top of a sand hill, surrounded by (people forming) a line (of
people) cutting flowers.
R: Is this your wife, they asked him, are you going to marry her.
F: In a dream?
R: In a dream, that's how it was. Then...
F: Where was he (when he had that dream)?
R: He was here, I was there
R: Really, here in Lubumbashi, he is from here.
R: (He told himself) I am going to marry this woman, she may be blind, whatever, I shall marry her.
R: You understand, don't you? I spent nine days fasting
so that I would be sent a husband, one whom God
liked. That is the truth. [pauses] So, Father had read the
letter and told me about it. I said, God be praised. This
husband, he may be old, whatever, I accepted him. Father
threw the letter away, saying [claps] you are stupid. You love
a husband you don't know and haven't seen. The suitors who
R: ...you don't want, only this worthless person who sent a letter to (your) address. Read first his letter,
I said. He read it and gave it back to me. Just don't say, he told me, that it was God who sent (lit. dropped) him.
R: Father (wanted) me to keep quiet. Fine, I said, let's see (what happens). We both answered the letters he
sent me. He wrote to Father saying I should come. Father wrote back to him and told him, as far as I am concerned
I'm not going to send my daughter just like that. You come here to the Kasai so that (you and) your (future) wife
can see each other.
R: When you like each other you can go back with her to Lubumbashi. He said, alright [pauses] if this is how it
is, I'll come. I'll arrive on April 4. We were in March [pauses] 1953. (Father said) that's fine. They
arrived on the fourth. I was just coming out of the church where I had prayed.
R: They arrived and presented themselves. (With him)
there was an African priest, Tshilay George, because he had
known this priest for a long time. When he was to become my
(future) husband he had asked him, you know ...?... Paul?
Paul, who is a teacher? They were discussing this and he
said yes, I know him. What are you doing, coming like this to
marry his daughter? His father, Kamba Paul, was with
R: Yes. He comes [pauses], we see each other [pauses]
without asking each other, do you love me, or talking to
each other, no. We just saw each other and I said God be
praised. He told me, here we are, He is the one who ordained
it. I said ...?... in the name of the Son, we'll get
married. He arrived on the fourth [pauses], on April 11 we got
R: [to her daughter] Does he understand?
F: [overlapping] Is that true?
R: Yes, we didn't do the ...?... and all that. He offered the bride price and they talked with the elders. I
stayed at home.
R: [claps] In the morning of April 11 we got married.
F: He already had the bride price together, all that?
R: Everything. My wedding dress I made...?...
R: He had everything together. [with emphasis] Because he was prepared, together with his father. Everyone liked
8. après tunafanya mariage: tunarudia humu: mu
Lubumbashi: mu le prémier: mai: mille neuf: mille neuf cent:
cinquante-trois/ paka pale/ tunafika/ áprès mariage: trois
mois: mu mwezi wa: saba: nilitoka inje ...?...yeye hakuje:
hayajue asema: wee bibi mwenywe wa namna gani? mwezi wa
saba/ minatoka inje/ kulikuwa mu ...?... eh?
R: [pauses] pale nilifika mwenye mu famille: minavumbula
mambo [with emphasis] miingi/ alakini simuelezee kintu/
njo nilianza kufichama: sikupenda bantu bajue/ hata yee
mwenyewe nilianza kufichika/ sipenda bantu bajue/ mina: vumbula
mambo mingi hivi: ya hivi/ kiisha minamuelezea sema voilà:
weye: [pauses] minawaza: Mungu alinisaidia juu ya kukutuma:
unioa miye/ alakini: kuko mafautes/ minaona kuko mambo ya
kutika madawa: kufanya bintu gani: miye: mi sipenda vile/
nitakuwa minakomea/ niko minamuambia: bya kidogo
...?...unaongopa/ kiisha: siku moya minatoka mi nienda: ku cabinet:
macabinets mu mu Kenya: ni ku: mukongo ya nyumba pale inje/
mu Kenya mu: zone Kenya/
R: eheh/ minatoka: minaanza kurudia:
F: ni: ni: ni kule ku: ku: mulikuwa: ...?... eeh: na nyumba kule?
R: eh: tulikuwa na nyumba/ tuko na nyumba ya hapa sasa/
R: eh: tunafika kule: [pauses] minaona: mutoto chini: mi moya/ pale inje/ minaruka: nibebe: [claps] nibebe/ niko
nasema [raising her voice] mutoto iko nalalamika/ balisikia/
R: mu nymba/
R: ile: mutoto mutoto: minakuwa: minabamba mutoto hivi: eh: minashituka kumbe hakuna mutoto/ bwana anatoka inje
mbio/ sema: ni nini? niko nasema ni mutoto/ sema iko wapi? sema minamubeba/
R: mbele anaingia mu nyumba: anashangaa/ anarégretter/
bwana asema: mutoto anabeba namna gani? ananiangaria ku
mukono: sina na mutoto/ alakini mi ndani ya mangumo najua
asema: ni mambo gani? inatafuta kufika/ niliingia/ analala
eko: eko na boka eh? naliingia: asema: mutoto gani? minasema
minaona mutoto pale chini: sema: mutoto bushiku huku dix
heures: mutoto atakuwa kufanya nini? minasema niliona/ mina
nilibeba/ alianza ku ruka hivi/ mwanaume minasema: minaona
garçon/ katoto kiko naluka hivi: kiko nacheza/
R: minabeba/ yee asema aah/ mi minasikia: mu namna ingine asema: Mungu ananipa mutoto/
R: pale mi: pale inje/ mi minayua: ile: c'est Mungu alinipa mutoto/
R: après [pauses] minamuelezea: simuexpliquer kintu/
R: ah: ni vile: niko déjà na buzito wa mutoto/ pale/ paka pale ile mwezi/
R: kiisha: [pauses] ni mu mwezi wa inne tena mu avril mule njo tulifanya mariage: le onze avril minazala/ mutoto:
mwanamuke: eh: mwanaume: eh: alikuya: [pauses] mu siku ya: matawa/ eeh/ après semaine sainte nilikuwa mu hôpital:
semaine sainte muzima: minafika: [pauses] mu paska banamubatiza/
R: sasa: pale nilizala mutoto eh? minalamuka directement: mi kuzala: minazala mutoto muntu ya mutoucher: minabeba
R: minalamuka hivi: na hivi minaona namuombeya mi moya/ sijue kile kiko ananifanya/ sasa: niko naomba vile
...?...njo mina: namata chini: ule ku...?...anakuwa kuniuliza sema: kaa: ni nini vile? unalamuka sawa kufa/ nasema
sitakufa/ hm: mi: mm: siyue/ na mi nilisikia vile eh? mu nguvu ya: nguvu ya namna ya kuombea mutoto:
R: après bananipa mutoto: banaisha: nilienda maternité:
bananipa mutoto yangu ku mukono/ minaanza kumuombea: ku
mwa: kumusouhaiter ma bonne chance/ sijue biko nakuya: akili
biko na: parole iko nalikuyayo inyee mu roho eh? ...?...
Mungu wangu akuye hivi: ufanya hivi: ufanya hivi: hivi na
hivi/ kunaisha tunatoka na mutoto: minakuwa inje/ tunabakia:
paka mwetu ...?... siku yote/ bwana yee aniyua/
8. After we had the wedding we went back, here to
Lubumbashi, arriving on May 1, 1953. Three months after the
wedding, in July, I left the house (lit. I went outside). He
did not know (what to make of it). What kind of wife are
you, he said? It was in July. I left the house. That was in
R: [pauses] Once I was there as part of the family I
discovered [with emphasis] a whole lot of things. But I told
(my husband) nothing about it. I began to hide, I didn't
like people to know. Even from him I began to conceal
things. I didn't want people to know. I discovered many
problems, all kinds of them. In the end I informed him.
Look here, I said, you [pauses], I think it was God who
helped me by sending you to marry me. However there are things
that are wrong. I see that there are things that have to do
with preparing and placing magic charms, I don't like
things like that. I would act like an adult and tell him
little by little you are full of fear. One day, I went outside
to go to the toilet – in Kenya it was outside, behind the
house, in Kenya township.
F: In Kenya?
R: Yes. I left it and was about to return...
F: That was where you had your house?
R: Yes, we had a house, we still own it.
R: Yes, (we lived there) when we arrived (in Lubumbashi). [pauses] I saw a child on the ground there, outside. I
yelled, there is a child who is crying. They heard me.
R: In the house.
R: (They heard) this, a child, a child. As I took hold of the child, I came around and there was no child. My
husband came outside quickly. What is it? I said, it's a child. Where is it? I carried it, I said.
R: First, before he went inside the house he was amazed
and he was sorry (to have missed this). My husband said,
how did she carry the child? He looked at my arms, I did not
carry a child. But, in the midst of the trouble (I was in)
I knew (what it was about). What is about to happen to me? I
went inside. He was (pretending) to be asleep, being
scared, you understand? I said I saw a child there on the
ground. What is a child going to do here at ten o'clock
in the evening? I said, I saw it, I took it away with me. He
was hopping around. I saw a boy, a tiny child hopping
around and playing.
R: I carried him. (My husband) said, aah. I understood it differently. (It meant that) God gave me a child.
R: When I was there, outside, I knew it was God who gave me a child.
R: Later [pauses] I told him about it, without giving him any explanation.
R: Yes. That month, I was already heavy with child. Then and there, in that month
F: I see.
R: Then [pauses] it was still in the month of April – we had gotten married on April 11 – that I gave birth, a
girl, or rather, a boy
. He came [pauses] on Palm Sunday. Yes, after that, during Holy
Week I was in hospital, all during Holy Week. When I came (home) [pauses] he was baptized on Easter (Sunday).
R: Now, when I gave birth to a child - you understand? - I woke up right away. I had given birth, I had a
child, a human being to touch. I carried a child
R: I woke up and saw that I was praying for (the child) by myself. I didn't know what did this to me. Now as
I was praying like this I fell down. Someone (who was there) was asking me, what is this?
 What is this about? You are waking up as if you were about to die.
I'm not going to die, I said. Well, I don't know, somehow I had the strength to ask for the child.
R: Later they gave me the child. When they had finished
(taking care of me) I went to the maternity ward and they
put my child into my arms. I began to pray for him, wishing
him good luck for, I don't know, whatever was to come,
his intelligence. That was the word I had in my soul, you
understand? (I prayed to) my God he should come, make all
that happen. Finally we left with the child and I was
outside and we just stayed at our home all the time. My husband,
he knew about me.
9. R: mu: [pauses, claps] mu cinquante-cinq: minazala mutoto wa pili/
R: Paul/ pale minamuzala: [pauses] minabakia vile/ sasa:
pale minazala huyu mutoto eh? kama minaikala hivi: niko
na mutoto pa maungu: minaona: mama Maria mwenye kubeba:
Yesu/ Yesu mwenye kufwa: benye kumufunga mabandes/ niko na ile
hii/ saa yote kama minaikala paka hivi: unashituka: unaona
mama Maria vile anabeba Ye: Bwana Yesu: [pauses] eheh:
baliisha kumufunga nani: niko na...?...asema ni nini? kama
minaikala saa ingine: minaona banakuya kunipa kifu yake/
ukwenda kufikia tubudi: kuona kuweka maf: mafleurs pa: pa
tubudi saa yote ma: mafleurs niko naweka pa tubudi/ fanya/
njo niko najiuliza asema iko iko nini? sasa wakati ingine:
[pauses] kama nikale paka hivi: [pauses] roho naye
alipasuka: minakuwa kuangaria mutoto sawa unaona mutoto
analumia kumbe hakuna kitu/
R: roho inapasuka/ eh: ni nini? kwenda kuangaria mutoto:
kumbe hakuna kintu/ minarudia: na tu tumika/ minasadi
kidoko: mi nikala: si nielezea muntu? mutoto ule anakomea/
nilikuwa paka na boga: minakuwa kuzala: Jeanne/ huyu iko mu
R: minazala: mwanamuke/ iko paka bien/ niko nasadi: niko naenda ku misa: kila siku ya juma yote: niko nafwata/
F: ulifwata nkundi?
R: eh eh/ sikukuwa na nkundi ingine hata/ miye nkundi hapana/
R: mm mm/ sikuwa na nkundi/ ilikuwa wee unatumika na vile nilikuwa mwalimu/
F:...?... ile wakati ilikuwa nani: Légion Marie:
R: sikufwata ile wakati ile: ah ah/
F: [overlapping] ...?...
R: ah ah: ile wakati mi sikufwata/ nilikuwa mwalimu/
R: nili...?...kufundisha/ mi sikuyua ile ya nani/ nilianza kufundisha pa Sacre Coeur/ kuimba/
F: ah oui/
R: eh/ bo bananiita kwa kuyua asema niko nje/ après: [claps] mutoto: [pauses] batoto banakomea: batototo banakuwa
9. R: In [pauses, claps] in '55 I gave birth to a second child.
R: Paul. At the time when I had him [pauses] I was in
this state. When I gave birth to this child, you
understand? I would sit there, with the child on my body,
and see Mother Mary carrying Jesus. Jesus had died and they
had wrapped him in bandages. (That was the vision) I had.
Whenever I was sitting down like that I
 would be alarmed, seeing Mother Mary carrying the Lord Jesus
[pauses] wrapped (in bandages). I said what is this? Once, I was sitting there when I saw them bringing me his (my
child's) remains. (I saw myself) going to the cemetery, always putting flowers on the grave. That's what I did.
Another time [pauses], I was sitting there [pauses] (and felt) that his soul was broken. I went to look at the child
and it was like what you see when a child is in pain. It's nothing (I told myself).
R: (My) soul was breaking down. What is this? I went to
look at the child, there was nothing (wrong with him). So
I went back to work. I prayed a little. When I rested (I
asked myself) should I not tell someone about it? This child
grew up, it was just fears I had. Then I gave birth to
Jeanne, the one who is (as student) at ISP.
R: So, I had a daughter and that went well. I prayed, I went to mass every day of the week. That's what I
F: Did you belong to a group?
R: Not at all, I was not a member of some group. I had nothing to do with a group.
R: No way, I was not in a group. The way it was, you worked. I was a teacher.
F: At the time there was the Legion of Mary.
R: I wasn't into that, no no.
F: [overlapping] ...?...
R: No no, at that time I was not a follower. I was a teacher.
R: I was teaching and did not know about any of this. I had begun teaching music (lit. song) at Sacred Heart.
F: Ah yes.
R: Yes. They had called me in to find out who I was.
 After that [pauses], the child [pauses], the children grew up.
There were four of them.
10. sasa siku moya: niko naona mambo ya ...?... avant quatre ans: minaona: [pauses] kunakuya: sawa ma: autos
blindés: bazungu banakuya humu: banashimama mwa njia: bana: jibia: bugomvi bunaanza: mu siku andika: mille neuf cent
R: eeh/ en cinquante-cinq/ [pauses] banaandika vile:
R: eh pardon/ minamuelezea bwana: minasema: minaona:
[pauses] kumbe: siyue ni kumbela: minaona banaandika paka
mille neuf cent soixante: kuko: niko naona bazungu beko
nakuya: bugomvi bunafanyika: mi minapita na batoto cinq: kati
ya vita: minaenda kuingia ku avion moya: avion munene: ye:
yenye kuonekana: sawa avion militaire/ vile mi siyakuonana/
minapita na mutoto mwengine alikuwa wa mayi mayi: eh: mkono:
bananisaidia na bya kula: banasema: ni bamaskini
bamusaidie juu yee anazala/ [claps] sasa kwa nangu: akuanza
ku ?bilinoter zaidi juu: asema: uko namna gani?
minamuexpliquer/ minalota [with emphasis] tena/ mara tatu/
[claps] minakuwa kuona lufu la baba/ ya baba wangu/
F: ye: wenye kuzala/
R: mm ni pale penyewe niliisha kuzala: es: inye mu cinquante-cinq: njo niliona lufu la baba:
R: eko nakufa banamutosha manguo yote: banamuua banamutirer/ [pauses] minaona tena ile niko nakuelezea: niliona:
sawa mu vita: niko nalota: bya kuachana: ile période muzima ya mwaka muzima/
R: [claps] njo minasema: ni nini? minaona kamotokari
karouge kanasimama mu pori: banakabula bantu: bajeunesses
banabakabulya ma mi: mishara bintu gani/ njo minasema ni
nini? sasa bwanangu ananielezea asema: sasa ni bitu gani uko
naona sasa peut-être ni vile itakuya/ njo bwana huyu: yee
iko mu nyumba: nilianza kumulota: niko na miaka kumi na moya/
weee/ na hivi mina: tunapatana/
R: niko nalota: niko Lubumbashi: tulienda ku Lubumbashi: ya mayi ile:
R: mina: minasema banasema kule ku Lubumbashi: hakuna ? bulongo ...?...paka kabujembo: ku Lubumbashi kuko bintu
bya bien: hakuna ma: bi: mboka ya bule: hivi na hivi/ nyumba yenu ya hivi/
D: [to R] ...?... anaisha kuya...?...
R: bon: ça va/ [door closing] mm [claps]/ bon/
R: ananielezea: siku moya tunaikala na bwana njo
minamuuliza asema: ile mwaka ya: [pauses] mu qua: mu
quarante-huit: à quarante-neuf ulikuwa na chaussettes
mwekunda ya bien: na bilatu yako bya kweli byeusi/ munacheza mu
nyumba yenu ya nyashi: yenye ya kudessiner: [with emphasis]
anashituka/ ananielezea: juu: haukuyuake: sema: mi
minaonaka niliona ya mashi/ ananiuliza asema [claps]: kaa/
[pauses] ile bilatu wala unabiyua na ile: chaussettes:
ulikuwa fasi gani? minasema siyui: nilianza kubilota kwetu/
R: sasa: njo pale: anakamata ku: espoir kiloko ya ile
mambo nilianza kumuelezea njo anasema: hivi uko nalota
peut-être viko ku mbele/ na ile balifanya: kintu ya nyama
mule mugini kule ku ?mwizho: habaifanye: niko naona beko na
navisema: mampombi: beko na bifanya: minamuelezea: kiisha
nakuwa kufanya ile bintu/ ...?...anasema tiens: unaf: uko na
bintu ya kushangaa/ njo banaanza kuko: kunoter: kunielezea/
10. Then, one day I saw things ...?...four years before
(they happened). I saw [pauses] there were armored vehicles
in which Europeans arrived here. They stopped on the road,
there were lots of them. A fight began. The date was 1960.
R: Yes. (I saw this) in '55, [pauses] That was the date.
F: (You mean) '60.
R: Yes, sorry. I told my husband about it. I said that I saw [pause] – I don't know, was it just an idea? – I
saw that the date was 1960, that was when I saw
Fighting broke out. I escaped with five children, in the
middle of a war. I made it into an airplane, a big one that
looked like a military plane of a kind I had not seen
before. I was walking with another child on my arm, it was
sick with diarrhea. I was helped with (a change of) diet.
They are poor, they said, (the woman) should get help, she
just had a child. [claps] I had caught the attention of one
of them because (of that). How are you, he said? I explained
it to him. I had this dream [with emphasis] again, three
times. I foresaw the death of Father, my father.
F: Your own father.
R: Mm, it was at the time when I had given birth, in '55. That's when I saw Father's death.
R: He was dying, all his clothes had been taken off. They killed him and dragged him off. [pauses] I also saw, as
I told you, what happened in the war. I was dreaming all sorts of things during that whole period which lasted for a
R: [claps] I said, what is this? (Once) I saw a small red car that had stopped in the bush. People – they
belonged to the
distributing trade goods, things like that. I said, what is
this? Then my husband explained it to me. The things,
whatever they are, that you see now, perhaps they are going to
happen (in the future). This husband of mine, who was at his
home when I dreamt of him at the age of eleven, again and
again, and eventually we met each other.
R: I dreamt I was in Lubumbashi. We went to Lubumbashi, the river (lit. water) by that name.
R: I told myself, they say that there in Lubumbashi, there is no ...?.... In Lubumbashi there are good things,
there is no groundless fear, and so on. That's what your home will be like.
D: [to R] ...?... someone came...?...
R: [to D] Alright, fine. [door closing] Mm [claps]. Alright.
R: He (or she) told me.
 One day I was sitting together with my husband. I told him,
 during the year [pauses] from '48 to '49 you were wearing
decent red socks and your black shoes. You (and others) were dancing in your house which had a thatched roof. (I saw
this like) a picture. He [with emphasis] was shocked. You weren't there, he told me. I said, I kept seeing (houses)
with thatched roofs.
 He asked me [claps] how is this possible? [pauses] Where were you
when you knew about those shoes and socks? I don't know, I said, I dreamt of them at home (in the Kasai).
R: So then the things I kept telling him gave him a little hope. Perhaps, he said, what you dream foretells (what
is going to happen).
And what they used to do with an animal back there in
the village ...?... I see things they talk about...?....
they do them. I told him about that and asked him, will I
end up doing things like that? He said, what you are doing is
That was when people began to take notice of me and tell me about it.
11. après: siku ya mu soixante: pale mambo nilianza
kufanya: binaonekana bya kweli/ na vile eeh: bilionekana bya
kweli byote nalisema/ njo minasema hapa kidoko: bile bintu
minasema: anabiona: njo anaanza kushangaa asema: kaa/ kumbe
ile bintu bya kweli/ anasema kaa: ni kweli/ wee: mutoto
anaingia hapa ku: beba nani: wee mwanaume/
R: eh/ minamuzala: après cinq jours: minakuwa kupita naye: kati kati ya baONU: beko naniona: paka vile bananiita
bananipa mukopo ya corned boeuf trente: na mikate saba paka vile nilibionaka mu cinquante-cinq/
R: bananipa/ minakumbuka ule soldat mwanamuke vile
ananisaidia: ule: ule soldat mina: minaona ile ndoto ile:
kale: tuko paka pale/ minasema tiens/ naona batoto cinq:
vile najilota: tuko tunapanda ku avion paka vile niliona: sasa
bya vile hivi: binafanyika paka vile/ minafika ku Mbuji-Mayi
njo tunafanyaka banaua papa paka: vile niliona/ tunabakia
kule: pendant: [pauses] karibu: miezi kume na moya/ kama
minaikala paka hivi: roho inanipasuka/ nasikia muntu na yee
asema: fanya attention: sa: sadi: uomba Mungu lakini: mutoto
yako fulani yee pa kufa/ ule mwenye nilianza kuona: mu:
siku ya kumuzala: m: Vierge Maria aliisha kubeba Bwana Yesu:
bintu bya vile unasikia mu...?.../ minaenda minaangaria
batoto: bote bien/ sema...?...inafika wapi? [claps]
minaingia mu nyumba minaanza kusadi: [pauses] ...?...
F: ça va/
R: sema na Tété: sema na Thomas baache makele/ baache
kupika bintu/ batafanya saa ingine/ mm bon/ nabakia/ kimya/
paka minaikala hivi: minasikia banafanya makelele asema: he:
mtoto anakufaa: Kamba Paul anakufa/ hata niko uko mayi/
minaacha bugeti ya mayi: minarudia mbio: minaangaria angaria
huku na huku: siona muntu anasema/ minakwenda ku:
kuangaria ku nyumba: mutoto iko hapa/ après: un jour juu ya
...?...ya kufa eh? njo: kama minaikala hivi: nasikia sawa
kuko mambo munene/ minangaria huku na huku: sione: unasema
ni nini? ça y:/ sasa minaikala minafanya sawa kulala:
minaona muntu mule mwanamu: mwanamuke moya ku droite:
anaingia yee na ku: gauche: banaisha kumubamba hivi: iko nalia:
Paul mu: mu sanduku/
R: [claps] minashituka: [pauses] bule bushiku: [pauses]
minasadi: silala tena/ naangaria ku saa: deux heures du
matin/ baba yake hakuya hapa: alikwenda ku Brazzaville:
kubeba: motokari yake ilipitia njia ya Lobito/ [pauses] mina:
kala kimya: minasadi weee: jusque quatre heures/
mina...?....directement iko na magumo/ mu cinq heures du matin
minasikia mutoto anatula mu...?...bote: maman: maman:
ulamukie munatafuta kufa/ na vile: niliona: na vile nilisikia:
sasa minasikia boga ba: nini: minamubamba/ nini? sema
minatafuta kufa/ nasema nini? minapumuzika sipumuzike? minasema
siseme: minasikia mwa kufa [claps]/ anasema vile: ananyamaza
R: tunabeba: tunaenda ku hôpital ya MIBA: kututuma ku
?disela: kuangaria asema oh mutoto aliisha kufa/ mm/
inapita paka vile: tunasadi: [claps] oohooh/ inapendeza:
bavumbule kule alifika mutoto lujitoka: unayua she bantu
beushi/ mi minakatala/ nilisema: Mungu alinipa mutoto:
alibeba mutoto/ mi sitake tena vile bya sema: kufanya vistaki:
bavumbule: sitaki kulaguisha miye: mi sipende/
R: tunabakia vile: pendant [pauses]: miezi kumi na moya: tunarudia tena Lubumbashi/ kulikuwa ka mwa vita/
11. It was later, on a day in '60 when the things I
foresaw (lit. did) turned out to be true. Everything I said
turned out to be true. Occasionally, even when I said little
(my husband) would see that what I had talked about came
true. He was astounded. Unbelievable, so those things are
true. Unbelievable but true. After a while a child came into
the house, you carried a boy.
R: Yes. I gave birth to him. Five days later I was walking with him right among the United Nations soldiers.
 They saw me, called for me at once, and gave me thirty cans of
corned beef and seven loaves of bread – it was exactly like the things I had seen in '55.
R: They gave me (that food). I still remember the
soldier, a woman, how she helped me. I saw this in a dream,
right where it happened. Is this for real, I said? Like in
the dream I had had, I saw five children. We got onto the
plane which happened exactly as I had seen it and so did
(other) things. When I got to Mubuji-Mayi we went through the
Father getting killed, also exactly as I had seen it. We stayed
there for [pauses] eleven months. If I just sit around my
soul is going to burst. (Then) I heard someone calling watch
out, pray to God, one of your children is about to die. This
is what I had seen on the day when I was giving birth –
(the vision I had of) the Virgin Mary with (lit. carrying)
the Lord Jesus (in her lap), things like that, as you heard
 Then, when I went to look at the children, all of them were well.
I told myself, where is this going to end? [claps] I went into the house and began to pray. [pauses]
F: It's alright.
R: Tell Tété, tell Thomas they should stop the racket. They should stop beating things, they can do this some
alright. I was sitting there, quietly, when I heard people
shouting, the child is dying, Kamba Paul is dying. I was
where the water is. I left the bucket there and went back in a
hurry. I looked here and there but did not see the person
who had called. I went to look inside the house, there was
the child. Later – on the subject of dying, right? – one
day, I was sitting there when I heard that there was some big
trouble. I looked here and there. I didn't see a thing. I
told myself, what is this? And that was that.
 Then, I was resting, about to fall asleep, when I saw a person, a
woman on the right, entering on the left. She was being held while she yelled, Paul, (he is) in a coffin.
R: [claps] I was alarmed. [pauses] That night [pauses] I
kept praying and didn't sleep any more. I looked at
the clock, it was two in the morning. (Paul's) father was
not there, he had gone to Brazzaville to get his car,
which had come via Lobito. [pauses] I kept quiet and prayed
for a long time until four. But then I knew right away that
the child was in trouble. At five in the morning I heard the
 Everyone was calling mother, mother, wake him up, he is about to
die. That's what I saw and heard. I was frightened. I took him into my arms. What is it? I am going to die, he
What was I going to do? Have a rest or not? I told him don't say I feel like dying [claps]. But he went on
and then he was quiet.
R: We carried him to the MIBA hospital and they sent us to Disela. (There) they took one look and said oh, the
child has died. Mm, that's how it happened. We prayed [claps], oohooh.
 One should find out what happened to the child and what caused his
 - you know us black people. I said no, God who gave me the child
took the child away. I don't want to get involved in finding out whom to accuse, I don't want to consult a
diviner, I don't like that.
R: We lived like that for [pauses] eleven months. Then we went back to Lubumbashi, there the war was still on.
12. tunakuya Lubumbashi: mu: soixante-trois/ inakuya:
soixante-quatre: Mungu ananipatia mutoto huyu: huyu/ [claps]
tuko paka bien [claps]: niko nasadi: niko naona/ sawa vile
minakuwa kupita: kupita: ku vile: nilikuwa mutoto: na vile
nilianza kuona/ hata minaikala hivi: minaangaria hivi:
nitasikia/ sauti ataweza kunielezea asema: angaria kwanza
shetani iko na déranger: itaweza kutoka hivi: batoto
banatumika: ...?...[noise] na example eh? nitaweza kuona hata:
[pauses] kintu sawa muntu kinasimama mu kati yabo: njo
minatoka: na akili ya kusema kabelezi sema: mutoke kwanza hapa/
minafika karibu/ akidi inanipotea/ mi sione/ nasema: ni kitu
gani? kama mambo inatafuta kufanyika: nikuwa nafikia paka
vile [claps]/ weee [pauses] mu septante: neuf/ eh: mu
soixante-neuf/ [claps] soixante-neuf: she kuzala petit: huyu:
batoto: sita sasa/ baroho/ kama minaikala: minaona hii
Lubumbashi: macho kuiona ya [with emphasis] sasa/ Lubumbashi ya
sasa/ sawa bintu binaota bingine: sawa bintu bile bipya/
minaikala kimya minajiuliza sema ni nini hivi? juu nilikuwa na
habitude ya: pale sikukuwa na makazi: ile wakati: bwanangu
alikuwa ku: na namna: alianza kufanya biashara yake: ya
transport: alikuwa na motokari mingi/
R: niliacha: sikuwa na akili niko nafanya: nilikuwa paka: bunakatika minafanya makazi ya mu nyumba: tunafa...
F: ...ile wakati mulikala tena mu Kenya? Kenya/
R: hapana: non/ mu Kenya dépuis soixante: soixante-et-un tulitoka mu Kenya/
R: ni jusqu'aujourd'hui/ tulitoka zamani/ si njo ba kwanza/
R: eh/ sasa: tuna: tunabakia: haina hii nyumba nyumba iko pale/
R: na soixante-trois: mu Avenue de Paix/
R: cent quatre vingt trois: tuko na nymba kule/
R: nafika kule: [claps] tunaikala: [pauses] saa ingine
kama namuelezea bwana: iko nayee sema: weye: mi sisikie/
uko na nini? uko na kitu gani? kile hakuwezi kukuisha? sasa:
vile bwana aliona nilipenda kusoma na kusikia mambo ya ba:
batakatifu/ alikwenda kuniuzaka bitabu ka: Unganda/ ya
bamartyrs ya Unganda/
R: eh/ anakuwa naye: ananipa/ sasa kama niko na soma: [pauses, claps] eheh: habienee/ kama niko nasoma minasikia
sawa niko mu:
F: mu Uganda/
R: mu Unganda/ hata kule ku butoto: pale kama banafanya his: histoire sainte: mambo ya: bible ya: Jerusalem: bile
byote bya mu: bya ku: [pauses] bya: batoto ba Israele/ kama naikala hivi: mi mitasahabu/ nitafanya ile ndoto: ya:
kuikala paka hivi iko nalota huku sawa mu Israel/ huku sawa kule ngambo: bintu bya Abraham: nitaweza kufanya [claps]
ah/ minafanya hivi:
R: eeh [chuckles] yabitoke: eh? juu yabiisha mu makedi/
12. We got to Lubumbashi in'63. Come '64, God gave me
this child here. [claps] We were doing well. [claps] I
prayed, I had saw (things). As it had happened when I
was a child I began having visions. I would just sit there and
gaze and (then) I would hear a voice telling me, look out
for the devil, he is out to cause trouble. This is how it
could happen – the children were working...?... [noise] (I
give you) an example, right? I might see [pauses] something
like a person standing in their midst. Then I would decide
to go outside and say, you ...?...
 get out of here. (But) when I got close (to them) I lost it, I
didn't see anyone. I said, what is this? If something is about to happen I am there. So it went on [pauses]. In
'79, or rather in '69 [claps] – it was in '69 that we had the little one here.
 Now there were six children, alive.
(Another vision came to me) when I was just sitting there and saw
Lubumbashi. With my (own) eyes I saw it [with emphasis]
exactly as it is today. Lubumbashi as it is now. Other things
came to me in dreams, things that hadn't occurred yet (lit.
new things). I kept quiet and asked myself, what is
this about? I was used to this – I didn't have jobs then. At
that time, my husband was running his transportation
business, he owned many cars.
R: I gave up, I had no idea what to do except getting up in the morning and doing work in the house. We...
F: ...At that time, did you still live in Kenya township?
R: No, in Kenya, that was until
 '60, in '61 we left Kenya.
F: I see.
R: (For the place where we have been living) to this day We left (Kenya) a long time ago. We were among the
R: Yes. We we lived there none of houses (you see) there now were there,
R: In '63 (we moved to) Avenue de la Paix.
R: Number 183. We (still) own the house there.
R: We got there [pauses] and stayed there. [pauses].
Sometimes, when I would tell my husband (about my
experiences) his response was, you, I don't understand
(you). What is it with you? Can't you stop it? Then, as
my husband saw that liked to read and hear about the saints,
he went out and bought me books about Uganda, the Uganda
R: Yes, he gave them to me. Now, when I was reading [pauses, claps] there was more than that. I felt like I was
F: ...in Uganda.
R: In Uganda. Even when I was a child (it was like that)
when they talked about biblical history, all the things
in the bible, [pauses] about the Jerusalem and the Children
of Israel. When I sat still like that I would forget (where
I was). I would have this dream in which staying here would
be like being in Israel. Here was like over there where the
things with Abraham happened. I could do this [claps], ah,
 I'll do the same.
R: Eeh [chuckles] that hasn't happened yet, right? Because it ended in ...?...
13. R: après: nani: [pauses] mukanda ile minamuonyesha
sema mukanda ule: ile ujuiza: yeye ananiletea sawa sawa
mazimu/ bwana anasema non/ kumbe ile: nilileta tu
kaifuchika/ kama anakwenda kufuchika: inakuwa paka vile/ niko paka
[pauses, claps] niko paka naona/ weee: na kupenda sana: kila
siku/ sasa: siku [pauses] ile iko nakuelezea ya: [pauses]
cinq: ah: soixante-neuf:
R: eh soixante-neuf/ mwezi wa pili: date sikuyue muzuri/
[pauses] niliikala: [pauses] iko: [pauses] niko nasikia:
sawa na miye minaona vile inakuwa mupya: [claps] sasa: bwana
ananiuliza asema unasikia nini? nilikuwa na Tété/ mukubwa
yake ya huyu/ unasikia nini? asema: minasikia maladi/
minasikia ya mu maungu ya nguvu sawa fièvre: sawa nini/ yee
ananieleza asema: maladi yako iko nguvu/ twende ku hôpital/
banapima sema: peut-être eko na: malaria/ kuko docteur:
[pauses] ?Relant/ bananipa: bananipa quinine/ minakuya:
nasikia tu sina bien/ sasa bwana anafwika: kutafuta bantu
bakuwako nisoigner mu kintu keushi/
R: [sighs] heeh/ minasikia sasa sauti/ unasikia?
F: ni vile tulifanya mi/
R: eh/ sauti ina: anaka: ina: sema: huyu hapana/
R: habawezi kumufansia kintu hata: kimoya/
R: kiisha bale bantu banaingia mu nyumba: kulikuwa ba mukangu: bantu bamingi/ mi nilikuwa kule ku chambre/ bwana
anasikia banamusonner: huku/
R: kuko muntu/ anatoka anakutanisha muntu: mwenye kuvwala kanzu/ mwekunda/ bwanangu/ nilikuelezea na ile siku?
R: muntu mwenye kuvwala kanzu mwekunda: na: kongo ku mukono:
R: na bible: eheh/
R: ah na bible: na mushipi: ya bleu pa kati/
R: anamuuliza asema: bibi yako iko wapi? yee asema: eko
maladi ya ku chambre: asema: [loud] ule bibi: hamuwezi
kumufansia kintu sawa dawa/ minatafuta kumuona/ bwana asema
bon: ongoye nikamuite/ alakini nasikia magumu ya kulamuka/
sasa ile saa: bwana eko niingia: eko niingia juu ya kuwa
kunielezea: kuelezea na bantu: bale balikuya humu/ mi
minamuona iko naingia na ule muntu coté yake/
R: mi mu kuona pake ule muntu [claps] minaanguka/ unasikia?
R: minamuona: minaanguka/ pale minaanguka: sauti inaanza kulitoka sasa/
R: ilikuya: macho walifunguka: sauti iko natoka/ [knocks on something] huyu hapana/ huyu atanitumikia paka Mungu
kunaisha hakuna kintu kingine/ hakuna hakuna hakuna/ ao hakuna: bote: Bel'Air muzima: [claps] nyumba tele: eko na
troubles mentales/ kumbe ule muntu pale aliingia bote habakumuona/
R: ule: ule alisonner:
R: habakumuona hapana/ paka bwana njo alimuona inje: na mi nilikuwa mu:
R: mu nani/
F: sawa hii: eh: alionekana sawa muPostolo ao mu?
R: pardon: alionekana sawa muntu/
F: sawa muntu?
R: paka muntu wote/ simuongopa juu ya nani: yee mu: mi mu kumuona minaunguka/
F: [overlapping] lakini: si alikuwa kuvwala na ile:
R: kanzu/ bien/ kanzu murefu:
R: sawa yenu ya baprêtres hata hapa: ka wazi ya hapa/
R: kuvwala: na nani:
R: na musipi: eh na kongo ku mukono/ na bible ku mukono
ya gauche: inye kuweka hivi/ eh: huku kwake kwa musipi:
kwa musipi ile munene ilikuwa kati: kalikuwa: kintu sawa:
hii ya basoldats ile banapita naka ile/ boyau eh: kintu gani?
kile kintu kirefu:
F: kina kisu sawa ki?
R: ah ah/ hakuna kisu/ kulikuwa ki...
F: ...?... révolver?
R: ah ah/ hakuna ya [chuckles] révolver/
R: kulikuwa kakintu ka: si kunikala kintu bana: basoldats banavwalaka hapa...?...
F: hii baton bana:
R: eh: kabaton eheh/ sawa anafika:
R: eh: mi siyue/ njo ile/
F [to a man arriving]: bonjour, bonjour/
Man: bonjour/ comment ça va? [knocking twice]
F: ça va/
R: bon/ minabakia vile/ [noise of steps]
F: ça va?
F: [laughs] ...?...unataka kusema?
Man: ah bon/
R: bon/ sasa: minabakia: sauti sasa: bwana anaona vile anamupasser: semeki yangu akamufwata: banasema non: twende
kwa prêtres: bakamubarikie/ tunafika kwa prêtres: ah huyu: Jacques Morey/
R: wa baEspagne/ anasema non: [pauses] yee [short gap in recording] ule ?mental/ bananipeleka kwa docteur
Jacques ?Henri: bananipimapima: damu: tout ça: asema hana maladi/ minarudia/
R: kama minarudia nilianza kusadi bya kuenea: nilianza kuimba ya kuenea/ minarudia sasa minabaki sasa maladi ya
sala/wee unasikia vile...?...?
F: maladi ya sala/
R: sala sasa/
R: nitaweza kwanza sala: mangaribi: dix-neuf heures: kufikisha paka: hata busubui/ silale: sichoke/ nitaanza sala
asubui: minafikisha hata dix heures onze heures: sichoke/
R: kama minaisha: minabeba bible: minaanza kusoma/ kama minasoma iko nani ilibakilia?
R: eh minafanya: vile batoto banafundaka récitation: iko na: mutoto anarépeter: anaweza/
R: mu kinywa/ sasa miye: niko na sa: niko na [pauses]
soma: biko nabakia directement byote/ mu kichwa/ kama ikala
hata hivi: bananiposer question ya: mu bible fasi fulani:
biko nabakia byote mu kichwa/ njo minasema: hmm: si: siyue/
bwanangu anasema ni nini? [claps] anakatala sasa/ kwenda
kuya sawa baPostolo: kuya sawa [claps] badomineur: kuya sawa
[claps] bantu ba Zambie: mi si yenye kuachana bale bantu ba:
ba madini ya Mungu ya kuachana/ [claps] kama inafika hivi:
[claps] minakatala/ asema: mutoke/ mi sitaki/ niko nasadi
Mungu/ mi sicheze/ sema ah: Mungu gani uko nasadi? wee uko
nasadi weee: uko paka mu nyumba: haina maladi: uko na
mizimu: bintu fulani/ minasema: hmm hmm: miye [claps] nasadi paka
13. R: Later, there was something [pauses], (yes) this letter. I showed it to him. I said, this letter shows (lit.
makes known) that the person who brought it to me seems crazy.
 My husband said no, I just brought it to hide it away. Keep it out
of sight and that's it. So, I just [pauses, claps] kept having visions. For a long time every day, I loved it. Then
came the day [pauses] – the one I told you about [pauses] in '5, or rather in '69.
R: Yes, '69, in February, I don't know the exact date. [pauses] I was resting [pauses] when I felt
something that was new to me [claps]. My husband asked me, what is it you feel? I was with Tété,
older sibling of this one here. What is it you feel (he
asked)? I feel sick, I said. I feel it in my limbs,
something strong, like a fever or whatever it is. He told me, your
illness is serious, let's go to the hospital. They made
tests and said she may have malaria. The physician was Dr.
[pauses] ...? ...
 They gave me quinine. When I got back, I still felt poorly. Then
my husband decided (lit. came) to look for people who could treat me in the African way.
R: [sighs] Oh well. I heard a voice. You understand (about the African way)?
F: We have done the same.
R: Yes. The voice said, not with this one.
R: They can do nothing for her, not a thing.
R: Then those people came into the house, ...?...there were lots of them. I was over there in the bedroom. My
husband heard that people were ringing for him. (He was) here.
R: There is someone, (he was told). He went outside and met a person dressed in a red robe. My husband –
didn't I tell you about that the other day?
R: The person was wearing a red robe and had a staff
 in his hand.
R: And a bible. Yes.
F: A bible.
R: Yes, a bible. And a blue sash around his waist (lit. in the middle).
R: He asked (my husband) where is your wife? He said, she is sick in the bedroom. (The man) said [loud], you
cannot do anything for your wife, such as (giving her) a remedy.
 I want
to see her. My husband said alright, wait, I'll call
her. But I had trouble getting up. Then my husband came
inside to tell me about it and the people who were there. I saw
him coming inside with this person at his side.
F: I see.
R: As soon as I saw that person [claps] I collapsed. You understand?
R: I saw him and I collapsed. The moment I fell down, there was a voice.
R: It was like my eyes opened and a voice became audible (saying) [knocks on something] not this one. If there is
someone (who can heal me) it will be God who is going to send him to me. There is nothing else, nothing at all.
Everyone, all over Bel'Air, in all the houses, had [in French] mental troubles. It turned out that no one saw this
person when he came inside.
R: The one who rang (the bell).
R: They did not see him. Only my husband saw him outside and I was in...
R: ... in (the bedroom).
F: This person, did he look like a
R: Sorry, he just looked like a person.
F: Like a person?
R: Just like any other person. I was not afraid of him because of whatever – I (simply) collapsed when I saw him.
F: [overlapping] But wasn't he wearing this...
K: ...fine robe, a long robe.
R: I see.
R: Like the one your priests here are wearing.
R: Wearing it with – what do you call it?
F: A sash.
R: With a sash, yes, and with a staff in one hand and a
bible in his left hand, like this. Wait, in his belt,
that wide belt around his waist, there was a thing like the
one that soldiers go around with, a cord or – what kind of
thing is it? This long thing.
F: Something like a knife?
R: No, no. There was no knife. There was...
F: ...a revolver?
R: No, no. It wasn't [chuckles] a revolver.
R: I was this small thing that soldiers wear here...?....
F: This stick, they...
R: ...yes, a small stick, yes. That's what he came with.
F: A night stick.
R: Well, I don't know (but) that's what it was.
F: [to a man arriving]: Hello, hello.
 Hello, how are you doing? [knocking twice]
R: Alright, I'll go on. [noise of steps]
F: Are you okay?
F: [laughs] You want to say something?
F: We are having a conversation
Man: Ah, alright.
F: We are talking.
R: Alright. (To go on), I kept hearing the voice. When my husband saw this he went by my brother-in-law who
agreed with him. They said no, let's go to the priests, they should give her a blessing. We got to the priests'
(residence), there was this Jacques Morey.
R: One (of the priests) from Spain. He said no, [pauses] (what) she (has) [short gap in recording] is a mental
(problem). So they took me to doctor Jacques Henri. They gave me a lot of tests, of the blood and all that. (In the
end) he said she is not sick.
R: When I got back I began to pray and sing as much as I could. I went back home and there I was, struck by the
disease of prayer. Do you understand (what I am saying)?
F: (That you had) the disease of prayer.
R: Of prayer.
R: I would begin with prayers in the afternoon (or) at seven o'clock forcing myself to go on until morning. I
would not sleep and (still) not get tired. (Or) I would begin with prayers in the morning forcing myself to go until
ten or eleven o'clock without getting tired.
R: When I was finished (with praying) I took up the bible and began to read it. (But) what remained from such
F: I see.
R: What I did was like the children who learn to recite (the bible), like a child who keeps repeating (a
passage) until he knows it by heart...
R: ... and can declaim it. So, when I [pauses] read,
everything stayed with me immediately, in my head. Because
of that, when people asked me a question about some passage
in the bible, everything was in my head. I told myself hmm,
I don't know (how) this happens. My husband said what is
this? [claps] He really objected to it. You are turning
into someone like the baPostolo from Zambia,
like people who dominate. He told me you are no different
from those people who follow all sorts of religions
worshipping God. [claps] When he came to that point I refused (to
go along with him). Get out (of here) I said, I don't want
that. I am praying to God, I don’t play around. Ah, he
said what kind of God are you praying to? You just keep
praying, staying inside the house without being sick, you are
possessed by spirits, things like that. No way, I said, I
[claps] only pray to God.
14. R: tunabakia paka vile: tuko nasadi: alakini bwana eko naona mi le: kama minasema kintu kinatendeka/ bya kweli/
juu ya ku: kuwa na bubishi kabisa/ sasa siku moya anaikala hakuna tourne-disques: munene hapa? yee kufika naye: eko
naimba: hapana madisques ya mingi: njo minamuelezea asema:
R: batabeba ile tourne-disques: juu uko unakatala tusadi: pamoya na weye: bata: itapotea/
R: na miotokari yako yote itapotea/ [raising her voice]
haikuwa sauti yangu: sauti inanifikia vile/ minawaza:
kama minaikala hivi nitaweza kusikia sauti/ ...?...alisema:
bataiba byote: bataharibisha/ juu: hautake kumujua Mungu
ule alikuumba/ ?ananisema: hata kidogo/ [claps] sema utaona/
tourne-disque ana: ita: paka muntu bakuweka haut-parleur/
turne-disque inapotea/ lote na leo/ munene/
F: baliisha kuiba?
R: hababakuiba/ banabeba vile nalimueleza asema itapotea/
R: miotokari paka: taxi inaenda mu kazi: inagonga
ingine: ni ule ali: toka en tort: juu ya kulipa ingine motokar:
bintu biote [claps twice]: maautobus: kunaweka moto/
ananiangaria aliniuliza asema: sasa mi nifanye namna gani?
nifukushe huyu bibi? fanya namna gani? njo mu septante
minakuya kuzala: septante-et-un: nazala mutoto wangu wa mwisho/
siku nilizala: naona baku: banaculturer vile/ niko kule ku
R: yee ?sijuwaji bote/ sasa mi minalota/ minaona ni kule mudjima: na yee na batoto bote huit/ banakuwa culturer
vile: pale kwa muchanga mweupe/ asema: bananielezea: sauti iko kule: alia: alianza ku: nifika mule: nani?
ilezea asema: hautazala tena/ uta:fanya kazi: yangu/
asema: kazi: kazi gani? sema: kazi ya Mungu/ nasema ya
kufanya nini? sema: ya kuombea bantu ya kubafundisha/ njo
minasema mm: mm: juu nilianza kusikia ni kazi ya haya/ sitake
hata muntu ajue asema mi minasalaka/
R: na yee anakuwa kunielezea: ile ndoto vile vile: pale
bulikatika nakuwa kuona bébé/ sema haunaanza kuzala:
kwako kunaisha/ [whispering] sikie sikie unasema: mm/ [claps
twice] iliisha/ hatukunywa quinine: hatufanye kintu:
iliisha kuzala/ pale pale: na: miye na trente-cinq ans/
kuzala kunaisha/ [claps] mi minasema Mungu asifiwe/ tunakuwa
tunaendelea weee: tunabakia paka vile tuko nasadi: bale
bantu bote nilianza kufukuza weee [claps]/ sasa kulikuwa Père
moya: Père Xavier/ minawaza unamujua bien?
R: Xavier: alikuwa curé mu cathédrale?
F: hapana/ ...?... hapana/
R: [to her daughter] ni wa kabila gani: Père Xavier: Yvette?
F: ...?...Yvette/ ah non: alikuwa Espa: Espagnol?
F: hapana? [pauses] nilifahamu moya: Xavier: Espagnol/
R: nazani yee: murefu hivi?
R: eheh/ maungu: hapana ya: ya mweupe sana: ya manyamanya: ni yeye/ [claps]
F: ni yee Xavier...?...
R: [overlapping] ...njo yee/ njo yee/
D: [overlapping]... ile mweushi...?...?
R: mm: pale mu Stan/
F: c'est ça/
R: njo hii/ ...?...
F: ...alikala: balikala mu nyumba: sawa alikuwa Jesuite/ no?
R: eeh: njo: Jesuite/
D: [overlapping] ...?...
R: njo yee/ njo yee/
F: mu Avenue nani: ex: Wangermée/
R: mm ndiyo/
F: ku nyumba yabo kule/
F: Mama Yemo/
R: [claps] anakuya: minamuambia maneno yote: tunasadi: banakwenda kufanya misa: no no: c'est ne pas possible/
hivi na hivi/ minasema: eh/ sijue/ après: mu septante: septante: [to her daughter] weye: ni septante combien?
R: ulikuwa katoto/ septante-deux/ [claps] eheh/ septante-deux mutoto anatoka ku masomo/ anakuya: njo mi niliacha:
bwana alisema: usisadi/ tulifanya tena sala/ tuache tu/
R: njo ubishi ilitufikia/ tuache tu: hatupende tena bya kusala: tuikale tu sawa bantu bote/ si njo niliikala? un
mois/ un mois/
14. R: So there we were, we prayed. Although my husband
saw that, when I predicted something it would happen – what
I said was true – he always quarreled. One day he was
sitting here when (I asked him) is there not a big record player
(somewhere) around here? (He went to look for it and) he
came back with it. It played music (lit. it sang). There were not many
Then I told him something.
R: That record player will be taken away. Because you don't want us to pray together, it will disappear.
R: And all your cars will be lost. [raising her voice]
It wasn't me speaking, it was a voice that just came
to me. I thought if I kept quiet I would be able to hear the
voice saying they are going to take away everything and
demolish it because you don't want to recognize God who
created you. Not at all, he said. [claps] You'll see, I
said. (There was this) turntable that only worked when the
loudspeaker was switched on. To this day, the turntable, it
was a big one, has totally disappeared.
F: Did they steal it?
R: They didn't steal it. They took it away just as I had told (my husband) when I said it will be lost.
R: About the cars just (one example). A taxi went out on a job and had a collision with another (car). When it
came to paying for another car it turned out that the other driver was at fault. All those things (that happened).
[claps twice] Fire was set to the busses.
 (My husband) looked at me and asked me, how should I deal with
this? Should I chase away this wife of mine? How should I go about it? Then, in '70, or rather in '71, I gave
birth to my youngest (lit. last) child. On the day I gave birth I saw people working in the fields,
 I was there on a hill.
R: He (my husband) knew nothing of them. So, I was
dreaming and, there on the hill, I saw him and the eight
children, all of them. They were working in the fields at a
place where there was white sand. The voice that came to me
there told me you are not going to have children anymore,
you'll do my work. Work, what kind of work? The work of
God. Doing what? Praying for people and teaching them. Then I
said no no because I felt embarrassed with such work. I
did not want anybody to know that I was given to praying.
R: And also (there was what) this dream had told me. In
the morning I saw the baby. You won't have children
(anymore), for you this has come to an end. [whispering]
Just listen to yourself, mm. [claps] And it did end. I
didn't take quinine, I didn't do a thing, having children
had ended right there, at the age of thirty-five.
Having children was finished. [claps] I said God be praised.
I went on like that, continuing to pray and sending away
all those people.
 [claps] Now, there was a Father, Father Xavier. I think you know
him well, right?
R: Xavier, the one who was pastor at the cathedral?
F: No. No.
R: [to her daughter] What was the ethnic group Father Xavier belonged to, Yvette?
F: Yvette. Ah, no, (now I remember). Was he a Spaniard?
D: I'm not sure.
F: No? [pauses] I knew a Xavier, a Spaniard.
R: I think that's him. Was he tall?
R: Yes. And his body
 was not very white, kind of whitish, that's him. [claps]
F: That's him, Xavier.
R: [overlapping] ...he is the one, he is the one.
D: [overlapping] ...this dark one?
R: Mm, there Stan(ley).
F: That's it.
R: He is the one...
F: ...who lived together with others in a residence. He was a Jesuit, no?
R: Yes, that's it, a Jesuit.
D: [overlapping] ...?...
R: That's him, that's him.
F: On Avenue ex-Wangermée.
R: Mm, yes.
F: In (their) residence there.
F: (Now it is called Avenue) Mama Yemo.
R: [claps] (Anyway,) he came and I told him about everything. We prayed, then mass was said. No no, (he said),
this is not possible, no way. I said well, I don't know. Later, in '70, in '70, [to her daughter] What was
the year you were born), '70 and what? '72?
D: In '72.
R: You were a baby (then), in '72. [claps] Yes, in '72 one of the children left school and came (home).
That was when I stopped (because) my husband said, don't go on praying. Then I prayed once again. (My husband said)
let's just leave it.
R: That's how it came about that we quarreled. Let's leave it, we don't want to have anything to do
with prayer, let's just live like everybody else. So that's what I did, didn't I? For one month, one month.
15. minaona katoto yangu ka huit ans njo kale: [claps] kanatoka masomo: ilikuwa ku ile nyumba yangu ku mbalambala
ingine: [takes a breath] sasa banakuya [pauses]: eko nafanya hivi/ sawa unaona muntu eh? unafanya [makes a gesture]
R: minasema: eh eh/ ni nini Yvette? [whispers] asema: anafanya kin: anakwenda kuweka sacoche/ minasema mangaribi:
pale makuta yote iliisha kutuisha/ hatukuwa na makuta/ hatukuwa na makuta: ya kuenea ya kula: chakula kuanaisha/
R: hapana makuta ya macapitales ku banque: ingine ya mu: hmm hmm/
R: hii miotokari benye kufwa: bakia hivi tuko sasa/ njo
minasema Yvette/ nini? sema hakuna kintu/ minaenda
minaanza kulambuka ...?...kadi: mu ma dix-huit heures/
minaona mutoto: [pauses] aliisha kutoka chini eko hapa/
mulishimama? njo roho inanipasuka/ minasema ni vile
minaonaka/ mutoto anashimama mupepe [claps]/ humu roho: sema: ni
nini mutoto anasimama mupepe? sikia anasau: eko: eko mupepe:
eko anasauter tena/ eko nasema: [pauses, begins to sing]
Seigneur que nous: [to her daughter] we: we sema kwanza ile
R: unajua tena?
D: minasahabu/ [claps]
R: eko naimba:
R: [claps] sasa: pale eko naimba: eko nasauter/ minakuwa
bamba mutoto: minaweka chini: wapi/ sawa hana yee eh?
tuko namuita: hakuna/ minaita bote: banakuwa mbio: bi:
tunabamba mutoto: non: iko naimba: iko nasauter: eko nasema
mambo: ile hayakuyakapo: après vingt ans ile mambo eko
nasema mu kinywa yake: asema ni nini hivi? shee: minakuelezea ma
pale tunaacha sala: njo ma bule/
R: sasa mutoto anafanya vile/ sema ni nini? tunabeba mutoto ku hôpital na Mufuta mwenyewe alikuya hapa: [claps]
tunafiku ku hôpital: badocteurs banafika/ asema mutoto hana maladi/ [claps] mutoto hana maladi/
F: [pointing to her daughter] ni yeye?
R: si huyu? tunaenda tunalala mu hôpital/
R: bunakatika: mulirudia ku hôpital maladi/ eko anafanya paka bya fika/ tunakuya: mama mama mama/ mutoto eko
nasadi eko natuma sala: eko nasema bien: eko naprêcher mu français: nguvu sana:
R: [with a chuckle] bintu byo: bya nguvu: mina: mina: batu: eh/ [claps like applauding]
F: alikuwa ngapi: na: miaka ngapi?
R: eheh/ alakini huit hainea muzuri: tuseme tu sept et demi/
R: eko na: eko ni eleza mambo: ya mu bible: ile yee hayasikia/
R: yee anaeleza sema huku mbele: kutakuya bantu beko nasadi: kusala kwa namna hii moya musishangaa/ yee bi:
byote: ni: Mungu anatafuta kujijuisha kuku watu: vis-à-vis: juu bamuitike/
R: anasema nasema: kutakuwa bantu ba maesprits ...?...banalala: banayala sana: mu mamikini: shetani anayenga
kabisa mu bulongo: inapendeza: kumufukuza shetani: bantu banajua: paka: mambo ya malawa: bintu: bya shetani habatake
kusadi Mungu/ ...?...hivi na hivi/ [claps] sawa hawezi kuikala: mutoto anakwenda: anavwala kakanzu keupe/ anavwala
chaussettes mweupe: bilatu mweupe: anatokea: anasimama pa meza/ sema hakuna muntu [claps] eko nalala/
R: hakuna muntu eko nalala/ anaanza ku prêcher: anatuelezea asema: bantu batafika hapa: ba kusikia mambo ya
Mungu: mankundi hata tatu/ tunaikala shiye si tuko pale tuko nasikia vile eko nafundisha/
R: na hana famille moya inakongola/ [claps] njo anakuwa mu ...?...iko namna gani? ba: tunasikia paka roho ya
kusema tu/ tuko ya humu/ nimusema: ni mambo hii: bilianza kutufanya she haya/ hatukupende bantu kwa: bajue/
R: kama bantu banakuya: tunafula mambo tuseme: murudie
mutakuwa kesho/ unasikia yee analalamika sema: bale bantu
bakuwa basikia sauti ya Mungu: wee unafutukia nini?
mubingishe/ banaingia banaingia: kama banaingia banaikala/ unaona:
katoto keko ...?...kanamuelezea muntu mwengine sema: tosha
mu mufuko yako ya ile dawa unatumikaka naye ku kazi: ile
R: ule anatosha/ basi utabisha muntu beko nakuelezea paka pale? anatosha/ bintu bya bule hivi/ hamutake kupenda
Mungu? hivi na hivi: anatupa/ sema kwenda tupa: hakuna kintu kinafanya/ tunabakia [claps] vile: hmm: mutoto anafanya
ile kazi: eh: mwaka muzima na nusu/
R: eko nasadi eko nafunda/ eko nafanya byote/ hamuona
anachoka: hatuwezi ku ...?...: saa ingine anatoka paka
kusema: tutasadi/ yee: tutasadi/ bunakatika/ utaona tu ma
sala hachoke: eko na: hayue kusoma: lakini kama anabeba bible
eko natuexpliquer: munakwenda kuangaria ile fasi ni paka bya
kiisha: sauti ya mwisho anakuwa kutuelezea paka yee mwenyewe
ndani: sauti iko natoka: sawa message/ sema: hibi
byote ni juu ya kujuisha verité ya Mungu/ sasa mutaanza
kusala: mwee bantu bakubwa: yee hacontinuer na masomo yake:
kunaisha/ [claps] kunaisha: kufanya tena kintu/
F: hata sasa?
R: hapa sasa: eh: kufanya nini: mm mm: kwenda kuko: pardon [clears her throat] kuko problème mu nyumba wale:
mutoto iko maladi kabisa: wale kintu gani kinatafuta kufika: umuona anasimama: anakata bible ya passage fulani: wale
R: eheh/ anasoma weee: kiisha anamielezea asema: ça va changer/ yee moya/
R: anamielezea vile/ si kama bilikuwa grave: anamielezea/ kama kuko mambo anasema tena vile/
F: [clears his throat]
15. Then I saw this little eight year old child of mine
lying there. [claps] She had come from school. (By the way)
this was in that house of mine on another street. [takes a
breath] Then (others) came. She did like this, like you do
when you may see a person and you [makes a gesture], right?
R: I said eh, what is it, Yvette? [whispers] What she did was to put down her (school) bag. I said, it is getting
late and we are out of money. We won't have money. We won't have enough money to eat. There is no more food.
R: There is no money left in the bank or elsewhere, nothing.
R: Those cars have broken down (lit. they died) and stay
like that. That is our situation. Then I said, Yvette,
what is it? It's nothing, she said. I went around trying to
think of something, it was six in the evening. I saw
the child, [pauses] there she was, she had gotten up from
the floor. Get up (I told her). You got up? It broke my
heart. I told myself this is what I kept foreseeing. The
child got up, staggering. [claps] Here is the (Holy) Spirit,
what (else made) the child get up, staggering? Listen, she
staggered and even leaped. She spoke, [pauses, begins to
sing] Lord whom we [to her daughter] - tell us (the words
of) that song of yours.
R: You still know it?
D: I forgot (it). [claps]
R: She was singing.
F: I see.
R: [claps] So, there she was, singing and jumping
around. I took hold of the child and put her down. But that
didn't help, she was like beside herself, you understand? I
called her name, there was no response. Then I called
everyone, they came quickly and we restrained the child. But
no, she kept singing and jumping, speaking of things that
hadn't happened yet. Twenty years later (I still ask
myself), what made her speak those things that came out of her
mouth? We, I tell you (now), when we stopped with the
prayers, that was a mistake.
R: Then the child went on like that What is it, we asked. So we took the child to the hospital – Mufuta
 himself came to our place. [claps] We got to the hospital and the
doctors came (to have a look at her). The child is not sick, they said. [claps] The child is not sick.
F: [pointing to her daughter] Was it her?
R: Of course, she was the one. (Then) we went to sleep in the hospital.
R: Next morning you went back to the hospital, sick.
 As soon as we arrived she did (it again) –
mama mama mama (you won't believe it). The child prayed, sending prayers (to heaven), she talked
beautifully, preaching in complicated French.
R: [with a chuckle] About difficult things. I, I and people (who were there) applauded. [claps like applauding]
F: How old was she?
R: Yes, but not quite eight. Let's say seven and a half.
R: She talked about things in the bible she had not heard before.
F: I see.
R: Right there she foretold it will happen that people pray in unison, don't be surprised. She talked about
all those things. It was God who sought to make Himself known to people, directly, so that they would obey Him.
R: She kept talking and talking. That there will be
people who follow spirits, that there are many of them in the
villages, the ground in which the devil mostly builds,
(saying) that the devil should be driven away, people who only
know about magic charms, things of the devil, and they don't
want to pray to God. Things of that sort. [claps] She
could not stay (quiet). The child put on a little white
robe, white stockings, and white shoes. [Then] she came out and
stood by the table. There wasn't a person [claps] who slept.
R: There wasn't a person who slept.
 She began to preach and told us people would come to this place to
hear about God, as many as three groups. We just sat there listening to her teaching.
R: There wasn't a family that ...?... [claps] And as to how she did it – we understood that it was the Spirit
who made her talk, we who were there. I told her that this was getting embarrassing for us and that we didn't want
people to know about it.
R: When people came we made something up, say, come back
tomorrow. (Then) you would hear her plead, saying those
people are here to hear the voice of God, what are you upset
about? Make them come in. They kept coming and once they
were inside they stayed. What you saw (for instance) was the
little child would talk to some person, telling him take
that magic charm out of your pocket, the one you always take
with you when you go to work. Take out what you are
R: He took it out. Are you going to argue with someone who tells you off like right there? So he took it out.
Useless stuff like that (she went on), don't you want to love God? She dropped the thing telling him go throw it
away, it doesn't do a thing (for you). We went on [claps] like this, mm, the child did this work for a whole year
and a half.
R: She prayed and she taught.
 All that she did but you didn't see her getting tired. We
could not ...?... Sometimes she came out and just said let's pray and we would pray till morning. You would see her
saying prayers, she would not get tired of it. She couldn't read but when she held the bible she would explain it
for us and when you looked up the passage (you found that what she had said) was correct.
In the end, the last time the voice inside her talked to us it came out like a message. All this is to reveal
God's truth. Now you grown-up people will start praying. She would stop her teaching. She stopped going to school
and that was it [claps]. After that she did nothing.
F: Up to this day?
R: Right now, yes. What is it she does? Let me think.
She goes to – sorry [clears her throat] – to a house where
they have a problem, be it that a child is very ill, or
whatever may be about to happen. You (can) see her standing up.
 the bible at a certain passage or she reads one.
R: Yes. She reads for a while and then explains to you that this is going to change. She, by herself...
R: ...gives you that explanation. If the situation was serious she would explain it to you and if there was
something the matter
 she would also talk about it.
R: (And then) she prayed.
F: [clears his throat]
R: She prayed.
16. sasa hapa sasa kwa hii mwaka na mwaka ingine: njo mwaka minaona binadiminuer/
R: binadiminuer/ hana na nguvu ya kusadi: kabisa hapana/ inakuwa tu sawa na: a: anachoka/ siyue/ hasadi eh: vile
hapana/ sasa tunacontinuer na sala shi weee: paka mu [pauses] pardon/ mu septante-neuf: eh? eh eh: mu soixa:
septante-neuf/ ilikwenda kuingia mu nkundi ya Legio Maria/ sasa baliniingishamo ku prètre asema: njo vile eko
anafikiaka ako bisikufikie/ unasikia?
R: ingia mu Legio Maria: kwanza kusadi pamoya na bamama ba Legio: bile biko nafikia: byabishe kufikia/ minaingia
mu ile prières: kama niko nasadi: niko natranspirer/ jashu kunanitoka/ bale bamama: [pauses] bilikuwa bamingi: plus
que: presque: quarante/
F: balikuwa bamama: seulement? hapa: hapana bababa?
R: ah ah/ wale bamama ile jours de Marie ni bamama/
R: njo bananiuliza asema: wee unaonekana: unakuya juu ya kuvumbula bintu mingi humu/ unapendeza kufanya
attention: utaweza kufa/ njo minamuuliza nani ataniua? sema: njo humu: si hatutake kuvumbula kitu/ unasikia?
R: unasadi mbule: unaenda kwako/ [claps] minasema haba basi haba bamama habanijue/ sasa nini banasema vile?
mukubwa wabo baliniita na ananielezea vile?
R: njo minauliza: siku ingine minasema: munakusadi:
munakuuana/ bitawezekana? asema: kama muntu eko na bulozi
hatuwezi kukuua/ minasema hata uko unasadi na bulozi?
minauliza ...?... asema: bitawezekana/ asema: non/ ts/ niliwaza
asema no muko nasadi: [pauses] bintu bya kabisa: kumbe
mbele: minakwenda kuwaza/ njo kunabakia munasadi: munaacha/
[claps] bananiuliza bananifwata: kurudia minasema non:
mitarudia sha: saa ingine/
R: habakujue: muzuri/
16. Then, during that year and the next I observed that these things diminished.
F: They did what?
R: They diminished.
 She no longer has the strength for much prayer. It was as if she
had become tired. I don't know, she no longer prayed like she used to. We went on praying for quite a while until,
in [pauses] was it '79? In '60, no, in '79, she went to join the Legion of Mary.
 At that time I was introduced to a priest who said that if she
keeps to coming (to the Legion) certain things should not happen. You understand?
R: After joining the Legion of Mary she began to pray together with the women of the Legion. The things that had
happened should stop happening.
 I joined those prayers. When I prayed I transpired, I came out in
a sweat. Those women [pauses] – there were lots of them, as many as forty.
F: Were there only women, no men?
R: No no. On days when they celebrated Mary there were only women.
R: Then they questioned me. It seems, they said, that you show up (here) to cause a lot of trouble. You should
watch it, you may die. I asked who is going to kill me? (The answer was) we here don't want (you) to make trouble.
R: Your praying is worthless, go home. [claps] I told myself, those women don't know me. Why is it they talk
like that? It had been their leader who called me (aside) and said this to me, you understand?
R: Then, on another day, I asked, you pray (together),
you kill one another. Is this possible? If (you are) a
person who is involved in sorcery we cannot kill you. Even
though you pray, I said, can you be involved in sorcery? The
answer to my question was that it may be possible. No, I
told myself, no way. I said no, when you pray [pauses] it is
for things that matter. Therefore I am going to think first.
If you go on (like this) the result will be that you stop
praying. [claps] They kept asking me, they were after me, I
should come back. I said no, I'll come back some other
R: They don't really know you.
17. sasa mu s: [pauses] pale nilisoma biblia wee: miaka mbili: miaka mbili ingine tunasoma na bwana yangu/ huyu/ eko
paka anakuya: anaikala: anabeba bible/ ya Jerusalem/ na mi minabeba/
R: tunakuwa: [claps] yee ananiposer questions: mi [claps] minarudisha: yee ana: [claps] paka vile wee/ peut-être
tutaanza hata neuf heures ya asubui na saa hii/ byakula binakuwa baridi/ hatudye/
R: hatuchoke: hatusikie lunzala/ njo: siku moya minajuliza asema: weye ulianza kukatala mi nisadi/ ulianza
kukatala kusoma hata bible: ulipenda sana:
R: kunywa/ pourquoi unaanza kupenda paka kusoma na kusadi ...?...? asema oh: ni Mungu yee mwenyewe anataka/ batu
bote oooh: munaona: bote bwana na bibi habaonakanaka: banakuya: namna ingine/
R: minasema: mbe...?... njo banayua: banasema habayue/ si sawa hivi? wee unakuya kujua/ ba: bamingi bo habajue
kile kiko napita na hapa sasa habayayua/ ni mara yangu ya kwanza kukutobilea hivi byote nilifanyaka: na vile
minakuelezea bya indépendance? asisemake/
R: eeh/ sasa: [pauses] kama minaikala hivi: [pauses] mu septante-quatre: minasikia sauti iko na yee asema: tosha
lampi weka pa cheminée: chini ya kitanda: haina na mwangaza/ tosha weka pa cheminée bantu bote baone/ banaandika/
R: si hapa?
F: oui oui/
R: banaandika: [pauses] mille neuf cent septante-neuf/
R: le sept/ [claps] tableau eh?
R: kama minaikala: minaona vile/
F: ile unaona mu septante-quatre?
R: ni mu sepatante-quatre/ kama niliikala nasema ka/ minasema ka/ sasa mule mu septante: mu septante-quatre:
[pauses] mi mwenye kulala: minalota/ mwili yangu hivi/ minapendeza sikia ile fasi/
R: mwili yangu hii: minalala: minaona: Mama Régine sawa miye: mwenye kusimama pale/ [pauses] kichwa yake:
[pauses] ...?... kunenea hapa iko na mulango/ wee unasikia?
F: kichwa na mulango/
R: kichwa na mulango: sawa: fasi ile banapikiaka ngelengele ya ku nyumba ya Mungu/
R: ni vile/ hiki kilazi: tabrenaka/ nyo naliona mimi/ hiki kyote bantu baliisha kuikalamo: banaenda/ unasikia
F: ni mu fasi: fasi gani ya...
R: ya ya bantu baniikala hata mu nyumba mungine sasa/
R: minaikala kimya/ minashituka: cinq heures du matin/ nasikia bingele/ bembe be/ njo nasema: [claps] ka/
minamuangaria bwana: alikuwa wa habitude ya kusikiaka musique yake mu cinq heures: namuuliza asema: unasikia ile
bingele? anafunga na: anasikia eko naimba/
R: ya ku nyumba ya Mungu/ yee asema eh eh/ [pause]
ananiuliza asema: ule ...?... yangu minasema minasikia/ yo ule
iko napita/ na...?...hii kipande ya cinq minutes: inaacha/
mina ho: minamuambia ile kichwa minalota/ asema: nijilote
minalala/ minaona Mama Régine mungine mwenye kushimama
pale/ kichwa: iko na kamulango: na ngengele pale/ ile fasi kale
kanyumba ya Mungu: ile ka: kakichwa kale/
R: eheh/ sasa hii kipande: minaona: tabrenacle/ mule banawekaka eucharistie/ sasa hiki: nakuona sawa nyumba
munene: bantu baliisha kuikalamo tele/ njo minajiuliza asema ni kusema nini? minashituka minasikia ngelengele/ yee
ananiuliza asema: mwili yako ilikuwa nyumba ya Mungu nje/ minasema mi siyue/
R: tena minamuambia: minabakia vile/ kunapita trois
jours: yee banamubeba vile hajue kuexpliquer hapa/ alianza
kujiuliza sasa [claps] bibi yangu huyu eko naona bintu gani?
hivi na hivi: iko na alisemea/ sasa: banamubeba: anasikia:
déjà: eko ku volant mu voiture: aliisha kutoka: anafika
quelque part: anaona muntu mwenye kumufichamea: anamuuliza ...
R: sema ule [pauses] haba njo bale habaitikake Mungu/ sawa bantu ba punition vile/
R: angaria: kama hautikee wee mambo ya Mungu: hautaki kusali: utakuya hivi/ hakuwe mwenye ku: kulala/ vis-à-vis/
F: paka vile:
R: neuf heures/ muzima tu/ jashu inamuguia: anakuya ku volant sawa mwenye kufa: si...?....
[pauses, sighs] yeye anakuwa kushituka/ après deux heures du temps: eko déjà: mi minasika voiture inashimama
R: humu fasi...?...kunamu: yee iko namuouvrir [claps]
aliisha kufanya hivi/ nasema iko maladi: iko nini? kipande:
[pauses] nasikia sauti sema: muache/ [pause] kipande wee:
minaona anashuka/ siweze iko kulombana/ nayee asema: niliisha
mwenye kufa pale/ minasema eh: uko vivant/ ni nini?
ananielezea/ sema angaria: minabishaka: shikia sikia sikia:
nilikuwa na madoubtes tu shikia skia kule nilienda/ sema
ulienda wapi? sema mi shiyue/ minaona sawa: muntu moya: naa:
ni poteza akili ya dunia: ananif: minasema: kumbe tuo:
tuendelee paka na hii mambo: tutafanya ma: tunaikatala/ tunaita
madini yote kubakia aishe/
R: banatosha na mutoto wa mu nyumba juu ya hafanye paka hii mambo: juu ilikuwa: ikuya hapa? sasa tufanya nini?
tuliacha paka hivi/ sikuwa asema mitafanya kintu/ paka tableau minaona: mille neuf cent: septante-neuf: le sept
juillet/ si minakuelezea?
R: [claps] habaandike kintu ingine/ paka ya sauti: lampi yee iko chini ya kitanda utoshe pa cheminée: bantu
bauze/ njo minamuuliza ni lampi gani? minatafuta kuwa: kutosha/ [claps]
17. Then (came a time) [pauses] when I kept reading the bible, for two years. For another two years we read (it)
together with my husband here. He would come and sit down with the bible, the (Bible) of Jerusalem
, and I had it with me, too.
R: The way we did it was [claps] that he would ask me questions [claps], I would (ask questions) in return. Then
it was his turn [claps], this was how it went on for a long time. We might begin a nine o'clock in the morning (and
go on) till this hour.
 The food was cold (by then), we didn't eat.
R: We didn't get tired, we didn't feel how hungry we were. One day I asked myself (and then told my
husband), you used to be against my praying, you even refused to read the bible. What you liked a lot...
R: ...was drinking. How come you begin to like reading (the bible) and praying? Oh, he said, it is what God
himself wants. Everyone (should do it). You see how both husband and wife, who had never looked at each other, have
R: I said …?... they know that but say that they don't. Is it not like that? You came to know this. Many
don't realize what happened and they still don't know. It is the first time I come out with everything I have
been doing? What about the time when I told you about things (that would happen at the time of) Independence? He did
R: Yes. Then, [pauses] in '74, I was just sitting there when I heard a voice saying, take out a lamp and put
it by the fireplace, under the bed it gives no light. Take it out, put it by the fireplace, everyone should see it.
 I was praying...
F: [overlapping] ...there, outside?
R: Why? Right here.
F: Yes, yes.
R: They wrote (the year) [pauses] 1979.
R: On the seventh.
 [claps] (It was like a) painting, you understand?
R: I was sitting there and that was what I saw.
F: You saw this in '74?
R: In '74. As I was sitting there I said what its this? I said what is this? Now, back in '74, I was
asleep, dreaming, like this, (in) my body. I'd like you to understand this.
R: It was this body of mine. I was asleep and saw a Mama Régine like me standing there. [pauses] Her head
[pauses] ...?... was there and had a door. You understand?
F: The head had a door.
R: The head had a door, like this place where they ring the bells in church.
R That's how it was, the size of a tabernacle. That's how I saw myself. Wherever people had been sitting
they went away. Are you getting this right?
F: It's (something that happened) in a place, where...
R: ...where there were people. This was in a different house now.
R: I stayed quiet. At five in the morning I woke up. I heard bells ringing [imitating the sound]
bembe be. I said [claps] wow. I looked at my husband – he used to listen to his music at five o'clock –
and I asked him, do you hear those bells? He turned off (the music) and heard them ringing (lit. singing).
R: (Coming) from the church. Well, well, he said.
[pause] He asked me whether that was for me. I said (that is
what I) gather. So, this is what happened and then, after
five minutes, it stopped. I told him about this head in my
dream. I dreamt of myself when I was asleep. I saw another
Mama Régine standing there. Her head had a little door and
there were bells (ringing). There was this little church,
this small head.
R: Yes. Then there came this part (of the dream) when I saw a tabernacle where they put the Eucharist. (In
another part) I saw a kind of large room with many people sitting in it. I asked myself, what is this about? (After
that) I woke up and heard bells. (My husband) asked me, saying, was your body a church? I don't know, I said.
R: I also told him I live (lit. stay) with it. After
three days he was carried away in a way he didn't know
how to explain. Then he began to ask himself [claps], what
is it that this wife of mine keeps seeing, things like that?
He just kept talking. Anyway, then he was taken away. What
he experienced was that he was at the wheel of a car,
driving away. He came to a place somewhere and saw a person
who was hiding from him. He asked him...
R: This (person) [pauses], he said, those people don't obey God. They are like people who are being punished.
R: Look, if you don't respect what God (wants from you), if you don't want to pray you'll be in a
state where you cannot sleep. (You have to) face this.
F: Just like that?
R: It was nine o'clock, there was nothing wrong with him. So,
 he was covered with sweat, he was at the steering wheel (feeling)
as if he was about to die ...?....[pauses, sighs] Then he woke up. Two hours later I already heard a car stopping
R: I went outside.
R: There ...?...(someone) was opening (the door of the
car) for him, [claps] he made (a move) like this. He is
ill, I said, what is this? After a while [pauses] I heard a
voice saying, leave him alone. Still later I saw that he
had fallen down. I pleaded with him, without success. He
said I almost died there. You are you alive, I said, what is
this? He told me look, I used to quarrel. Listen, listen,
listen (I kept telling you). Where I went I had second
thoughts (lit. doubts) about that. I said where did you go? I
don't know, he said. I realized that I was like a
person who no longer understood the world. I said let us go
on then with what we have been doing.
 We are going to do this and will be against invoking all the
religions which are around, this should end.
R: Are they going to throw a child out of the house just
because it does not go along with what is done there?
Now what we do? We left it at that. I was not about to do
something. There was only the picture I saw on July 7, 1979.
Didn't I tell you about it?
R: [claps] (After that) nothing else was drawn (lit. written), there was only the message from a voice saying,
take out the lamp from under the bed (and put it) by the fireplace so that people ask (questions). That was when I
asked him what is the lamp should I take out? [claps] I want to be out in the open.
18. weee/ à partir en septante-cinq: tuko tunasadi: mambo kuwa inafanyika/ kama bantu banaingia hata mu nyumba humu
sawa hivi we unakuwa kunivisiter:
R: bale bantu bengine hata batrois: uliona paka mwengine anaanza kulalamika na kulia/ yee anijua hafanye kintu/
anasuka: [imitating sounds the person made] anaanza kukimbia/ minakwenda minamubamba hivi: sema Kristu umutulize/
alikuwa kimya/ ndani ya roho yangu mi semake kintu/ [pauses] [claps several times] ile nyumba mi sitafikakako/ ule
muntu yo atasema vile: nitasema non/ bengine balianza kuniona mu namna yabo: mimi siyue/ sasa kulikuwa: mama moya na
mutoto yake kiwelewele: eko nakuya: eko naikala: [pauses] mutoto ule kukata mapaniers: kufanya bitu gani: ni mutoto
wasi: wasiyo kusikiaka/ [claps] njo mu septante: septante-six/ [pauses] siku masauti gani fikia: anasema wee mutoto:
ile mamessages/ mu pale ataeneza dix ans: atasema: ububu utaisha: atakuwa muntu: atafanya mambo sawa bantu bote/
R: ni sauti [claps] ya Bwana inanifikia: na noter: ana tu: bananoter: secrétaire wa: [pauses] minawaza: Takizala/
R: eheh/ Gouverneur Takizala/ ananoter: mwenye mutoto/
eko na leo iko na tetemeka/ sema ah: [pauses] ni namna
gani? juu tu atasikia muzuri: juu mutoto kwanza kusema/
akuwa pumbavu: kunya mayi ya musalani: kutoka inje: kubamba
panja: kukata panier: ma rideaux: tusema idiot/ après:
[claps] mutoto ali ...?... dix ans: alifanya byote: paka vile
nilisema/ alikuwa sauti yangu: Mungu aniruhumie/ juu
minasema vile nalijisema: vile sauti ilise: ili: semea ndani mwako/
mutoto: tulikuwa nayo hapa anaanza ku: ooh/ tuku nasali eh?
iko mikulu yangu sema: namiache: unipa papay/ bantu bote
banaikala mbele: kimya/ banashangaa: ah: eh: [claps]
R: yee moya anaenda kuikala mu kiti: calme kabisa/ juu saa yote sikuwa wa kubamba/
R: ...?...akili hakuna na espoir: balienda naye [claps] na mu bulaya: fasi yote: balibaelezea asema hakuna namna/
sasa mutoto ah: sasa eko mu quatrième primaire/
R: mm/ ulize ya batoto bote:
D: ni nani? Kalu/
R: [claps] Kalu/ bote banamujua/ na baProfesseur Mufuta/
R: eh Mufuta kwenda kumuona na ku...?...: sasa eko buluya mu Bruxelles/ eko bien/ biliisha kwa nguvu ya
18. After a long time - starting in '75, we had been praying – things happened. For instance, people came into
the house here as you came to visit me.
R: At times, there were just three of them. One of them
would begin to cry and wail. He knew I would not
interfere. He was shaking [imitates the sounds the person
made]. Then he was about to run away when I went after him
and took hold of him. I said Christ comfort him. He calmed
down. Inside my soul I said nothing. [pauses] [claps several
times] (There may be) a house I won't go to. If that person
insists I'll say no. Some people began to see me in
their way, I don't know (about that). Then (there was the
case) of a mother and her disturbed child. She came and
stayed. [pauses] What this child would do was to cut up
baskets and what not. The child was deaf. [claps] That was in
'76. One day voices reached me saying you, with regard to
the child, these are the messages. When he reaches ten
years he is going to talk, his muteness will end, he will be
a (normal) person and do things like everyone else.
R: It was the voice [claps] of the Lord that came to me and that was put in writing by the secretary of [pauses],
I think it was Takizala.
R: Yes. Governor Takizala.
noted this down as a child. Even today it gives him shivers.
Ah, [pauses] how did it happen? Because (the child) would be
able to hear and was going to speak. (The child) used to
be an imbecile, drinking water from the toilet, running
outside to catch rats, cutting up baskets and curtains,
Let's say he was an idiot. Afterwards, [claps] when the
child reached the age of ten he did everything (like a
normal person), just as I said (earlier). It was my voice,
may God forgive me, because when I spoke, it was what I had
told myself when the voice was speaking inside you. We had
the child with us here.
He began to say ooh– he was in my lap (lit. on my legs) while we
were praying - you understand? Let me go, he said, give me some papaya. All the people who were there were silent at
first. Then they called out in surprise, ah, eh, [claps] (the child) has woken up.
R: By himself he went to sit down on a chair, completely calm, whereas he always had to be restrained.
R: ...?... As to his mind, there was not hope. They even went with him [claps] to Europe, everywhere they were
told that nothing could be done. Now the child is in fourth grade primary school.
F: I see.
R: Mm. Ask all the children.
D: What was his name? Kalu.
R: [claps] Kalu. They all know him, even Professor Mufuta's family.
F: I see.
R: Yes, Mufuta went to see him and to ...?.... Now he is in Europe, in Brussels. He is fine. By the strength of
God his troubles were over.
19. sasa mambo tulifanyika:[claps] ba kuzala[claps]
balizala/ siwezi kueleza moya moya mwenyewe ulisikilia/ kama
muntu anakuya hivi na esprit ya impir: niko naona: [pauses]
sawa vile niliexpliquer mu mafundisho a ile siku: musulman
moya ali...?... nayee: mwanamuke moya iko kuwa huku: kama
minaomba: minaona: musulman anashimama: mweushi anavwala
manguo mweupe/ minaangaria bien: ni nini? sione/ asema:
alafu: hii ni nini? sasa: kama minaomba: anapasha paka
kuanguka/ yee hapana kulamuka/ iko paka ...?... [claps]
sasa: mi sikuwa force ya kuniuliza sema: pourquoi: bantu beko
nafanya hivi? bantu beko nakuya: ba: [claps and breaks off]
tuwaze byote hiki/
R: fasi yote: uh [claps] ni nini: ni nini? [claps] [pauses] pale [claps] mambo inafanyika ya kushangaa/
...?...kiko ananionyesha ku mpembeni yangu ya mwanamuke/ nabamba hivi minasikia kintu/
R: minabeba ciseaux/ minakata: pardon/ sikusemake/
R: bantu bo ba kuona vile ule musulman iko natoka mbio/
R: eh: muntu/
R: muntu murefu sawa: sawa Sinangalais: sawa:
R: Togolais: sawa na: bantu ba vile: shee...
R: eeh hata uta: anapotea [claps]/ minasema: ah? ni shetani ya namna gani? yee mu kutoka: pale alianguka: kintu
kilianza kuvimba/ ule anatoka ya hivi: una kule tuko natembea sawa mutoto mu tumbo eh/ ule bibi: eko nalia: njo kile
alikuya sema kintu kiko ananiteswa mu tumbo/
R: kumbe: ni kintu kingine/ sasa minakata/ [pauses] [claps] ule: m: nani anatoka: ule musulman anatoka/ yee
analamuka muzima tu/
R: eeh: sasa anafanya hivi/ minasema: kama muntu yote
eko analamuka: minmuambia: Notre Père/ tunasadi naye/ kama
hajue naona namuambia yee mots moya moya/ baba yetu uliye
mbinguni: anasema: jina lako asifiwe: anasema: na vile: pri:
nani: baba yetu:
R: itaisha/ sasa minamufansia sifa kwa Mungu: baba ...?... Mungu: mwana ...?...Mungu: Roho Mutakatifu: kunaisha/
anatoka: alibakia bien jusque: eh: siku yote na: hakupata tena: kile kintu/
F: mais: ile mambo ya ku: kuona musulman?
F: yee aliona ...?....?
R: [overlapping, loud] ni miye/
F: wee: paka wee/
R: ni miye/ yee hayue/ mi pale minakata kanguo: aliona/ bote baliona/
R: après minamueleza sema hii ni nani? ni nini? asema Séné: eh muSénegalais moya njo anamufansia Kinshasa juu ya
F: ilikuwa lawa?
R: eh ilikuwa lawa/
R: alishonea: ndani ya kikwembe yake/
R: juu ya kugagner chance/ sijue kama ni nani alimufansia/
R: [claps] ana sikuuliza tena/ mina nyamasha/
19. So, things got done, [claps] those who were about to
have children had children - I cannot tell you about them
in detail, you heard of them yourself. When a person comes
with an impure spirit I see it. [pauses] As I explained the
other day in my teaching, (there was this case) that
involved a Moslem...?... A woman came here. When I prayed (for
her) I saw a Moslem standing there. He was black, wearing
white clothes. I took a good look. What is this? I don't
see. But what is this? Then, when I prayed she kept falling
down. She couldn't keep upright. She just...?...
[claps] I didn't have the strength then to ask myself why
people acted that way. They came, they... [claps and
breaks off]. We should think about all this.
R: (It was) everywhere, oh, (you wouldn't believe it). [claps] What is it? What is it? [claps] [pauses] That
was when [claps] amazing things happened. There was something she showed me (pointing to) my left side. I touched it
and felt something.
R: I got some scissors. Then I cut (it off). Sorry, I shouldn't tell (you).
R: People saw how this Moslem went away at once.
F: A Moslem?
R: Well, he was a human being.
R: A tall person, like someone from Senegal.
R: (Or from) Togo, like people of that kind. We...
R: Yes, he disappeared. [noise] I said ah, what kind of
devil is this? As he left she fell down and that thing
began to swell. I appeared (looking like we do) when we go
around with a child in our belly. This woman cried because,
she said, there was something that caused her pain in the
R: So, it was something else. Then I did the cutting, [pauses] [claps] this Moslem left, and she got up, alive
R: Yes, and when she did this, I said – when a person is awake like everyone else – I said the Our Father for
her. So we prayed with her. When I noticed that she did not know the words I said them one by one: "Our Father in
Heaven," I said, and she would speak after me. "Hallowed be you name" and so forth, to the end of the
prayer, of Our Father.
R: Then I made her say Glory to God the Father, God the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, and that was the end. She
went away and has been well all that time. What had happened to her did not happen again.
F: But, what about seeing a Moslem?
F: Did she see...?...?
R: [overlapping, loud] It was me.
F: You, only you.
R: It was me. She didn't know. When I cut off the piece of cloth she saw it. Everyone saw that.
R: Afterwards, I talked to her about it. Who was it? What was it? It was a Senegalese who did something to her in
Kinshasa, to bring her luck.
F: Was it a magic charm?
R: Yes, it was a charm.
R: Which he had sewn into her dress.
F: I see.
R: To become lucky. I don't know who it was that this for her.
F: I see.
R: [claps] She had no more questions and I kept quiet.
20. sasa: kama mi nikale: utaona muntu mwengine ataweza:
banafungula paka lupango aliendea kule: anaanza kupinduka
sawa mupila ya motokari [imitates the sound] rrididididi:
dididi: yee uko: eko nakuya: vis-à-vis bantu bote beko naona/
haina ku: ku ndoto wala vision/ anakuya/ [claps] nini?
atakuelezea bya sema: wee uko na ...?... ya kutuweza mu dunia
R: eheh? kama anasema vile: anafuya: atoka mbio: hakuwa na kombanisha/ anaanguka/ [loud] eh ka: kulikuwa hata
hivi tuko nasali: utaona moya analamuka: anafunga makofi juu ya kunikombanisha/ alakini: unamuweka yee mukono hivi:
Kristo umutulize: anaanguka/ [pauses] umwe: bo benyewe/
R: haina asema: shee bantu bote beko naona: haina ndoto/
R: anaanguka/ [claps] kiisha: anabakia pale chini sawa mwenye kufa/ c'est quelques minutes/ mimi: unafanya
paka maprières yangu
upeshi: na: Yesu wangu umuhurumie na umutoshe kile eko
nakye: kile kinatafuta kumukombanesha/ ukifukuze/ kumbe
iliisha: analamuka/ alikuwa bien/ minamufundisha paka
...?... sala ya Baba Yetu ile/ unaisha wee wee: bantu banaanza
kuona biko ni endeka: binaanza kuya tu: muzuri: mi shiyue/
shikuita muntu/ ni bantu bo benyewe njo balinikuya na hapa
sasa: mi shikuita muntu/
R: mm/ mi nilianza kuikala paka kwangu: unasikia [claps]
paka kavumo/ banatutuma/ kuko nalisema huyu sema
nililota: huyu asema nilisikia sauti: bananielezea asema
hivi na hivi: ba sauti bekoako: ba kulota bekoaoko: Mama
Régina: bengine bo abakulota jina yangu ya ba: kizazi ya:
yangu ya kuzalikwa/ kama anakuya iko ananielezea jina yangu
ya kuzalikwa/ sema jina yako fulani: bananituma hivi na hivi
na hivi/ mwenyewe atakuya: mu vie yake yee hapana kuzala: iko hata na
dix ans na mutoto: vingt ans: anakuwa ananielezea
asema: jina yangu: jina yako ni fulani: bananituma asema
unisaidie/ Mungu atanisaidia anasema: ...?...banasema usali na
muntu: mishangula asema: na yee anasema sauti: minasema
tusali/ [claps] kuwa anazala/ bya mingi bya mingi sana/ bya
mingi kupita/ kulikuwa moya: mama moya: anapata mimba ya
trois ans/ trois ans/ leo banapima: mutoto analala hivi:
bunakatika mutoto hanamo ?hivi/ wee: tumbo inafika nakuwa
natafuta kufa/ anakuya/ minasema tutwanga magoti tumuomba ya
Mungu: mi shijue cha kufanya/ tunasadi: mina [pauses] tumbo:
inaisha/ [pauses] kutupa madawa: fasi yote: Gécamines/
Mungu wapi nene: ku: tupa madawa: niko naomba kama balisema
[performing] hii dawa yangu inasemaka iko nguvu: bebe/
[claps] nitabeba: minakwenda kutupa:minasema haitaniua/
R: Mungu: atafika kumusadi: na dawa/
pale: nilianza/ njo pale tu mingi balianza kuya/ sasa
beko naanguka mingi sana: minasema hamujisafisha/ uko na
madawa iliisha [claps] kumiyala tele/ bo na mabuloji mu
tumbo: iliisha kuyala/ inapendeza mutoshe bile bintu byote: njo
mutapatana na Mungu/ [claps] banaanza kufanya vile: fanya
vile: sasa banakuwa bien/ après: [pauses] sala inaendelea:
inaendelea: inaendelea: [pauses] inakuwa macomplications:
beko nasadi na nini: il y a quelque chose: hivi na hivi:
minasema ah ah/ hakuna kintu/ mpaka hapa sasa/ mambo ya
Mungu iko nacontinuer: pa kusadi hivi: sijue kintu ingine/
R: eh minasalaka: huku: [pauses] kama banapenda sema nisadi ku Kinshasa: minaenda tena:
R: tunasadi tena baKinshasa paka vile:
R: minasadi mu Mbuji Mayi: nitasadi: ba mu Bukavu
bengine balikuya ku nyumba: sema twende tukasadi/ kama nilisema
Mungu ku kuyaka mu fasi yote: siwezi kuanza ku: kuwayawaya
hivi na hivi/ [claps] paka hapa sasa: njo: minaona: [pauses]
mbele mbele na m: kusadi zaidi: inje/ hapa minaona: kuko:
[pauses] imba kiloko: inapendeza nifanya kachapelle: njo
minasikia sauti vile/
20. Now (another case). I was sitting (inside) when I would see that they opened (the gate to) the yard for some
person who went around and began to spin like the wheel of a car, [imitates the noise]
rridididdi dididi, in front of all the people
watching him. That was not in a dream or vision. He approached
(me). [claps] What is it, (I asked)? He would then tell you
things like, you have ...?..., you have power over us here
R: You understand? As he kept talking like this he ...?... and left quickly, he was not about to get into a
fight. He fell down. [loud] You wouldn't believe
 it but this happened while we were praying. You could see him
getting up by himself and clenching his fists, ready to fight me. But then you touched him with your hand like this,
saying may Christ have mercy on him, and he fell down. [pauses] (In front of) those (who were present).
R: It wasn't (a vision). We, all the people saw it, it wasn't a dream.
R: He fell down. [claps] Then he lay there on the ground
as if he were dead. That lasted for several minutes. I
quickly said my prayers. My Jesus, have mercy on him and rid
him of whatever he has that makes him aggressive. Drive it
out. Then it was over, he got up and was fine. I taught him
the Our Father. I went on (doing things like that) for a
long time and people began to see that this was possible and
came to a good end, I don't know. I never called for
anyone, people came to me by themselves and up to this day I
never called for a person.
F: I see.
R: Mm. I just stayed at home. As the rumor spread,
people were sent to us. Among them there was one who said
I had a dream, another, I heard a voice and they told me
about it at length. Hearers of voices and dreamers showed up
beseeching me, Mama Régina. Some of them had dreamed my
name, the one I was given by my relatives at birth. A person
might come and tell me what my birth name was saying this is
your name, they sent me (to you), things like that. Among
those who came there might be someone who never had a child
in her life, even after ten or twenty years (waiting) for a
child. She would come and tell me my name, or rather, this
is your name, I was sent to you for help. God will help
me...?... I was told to pray with someone...?.... When she
had spoken I said let us pray. [claps] What happened then
was that she had a child. There were lots of cases like
that, lots of them. There was one woman who had had pregnancies
during three years. Three years in a row. On one day she was
examined the child was there, next day the child was gone.
Her womb got so she wanted to die. (Then) she came (to me). I
said lets kneel down and pray (for help) from God, I
don't know what to do. We prayed [pauses] and (the troubles
with her) womb were gone. [pauses] About casting spells
– that happens everywhere, in the Gécamines (miners' camp),
God, just about everywhere. When they told me
[performing] it is said that this charm of mine is powerful,
carry it (with you), I said if I take it and throw it away
it isn't going to kill me.
R: A person may even come to pray to God with magic
charms on him. When I started out, many came to me. Lots of
them would collapse. I told them you did not cleanse
yourself, you are using charms, they [claps] became too much for
you. (And there were) those for whom sorcery in their belly
had gotten too much. You should throw away all those things
then you will meet with God. [claps] When they did this they
got well. Later [pauses] prayer went on and on and on.
[pauses] There were complications, (people asked) what do
they use when they pray, there is something, things like
that. Then I said, not at all, there is nothing. To this day
I have been serving God through praying, I know nothing
R: Yes, I keep praying here, [pauses] and if they want me to pray in Kinshasa, I go there.
R: So this is how we prayed with people from Kinshasa.
R: I prayed in Mbuji Mayi, and there were some people
from Bukavu who came to my house telling me, let's go
and pray (there). (In the end) I said, God comes everywhere,
I cannot be travelling around like that. [claps] Right
now, what I see is this. [pauses] From the beginning we used
to pray outside. Now I realize that there is [pauses] also
some singing. I should build a small chapel. That is what I
heard a voice (telling me).
21. F: ile nili: niliona: hapa mu nyumba niliona: sawa: banani: ts: zamani nilipita: ku ba Jamaa: hata ku nani: ku
F: naona beko na ma: mafotos ya Yesu: mas: salaba: ce: hapa sione kintu/
R: na: [claps]
F: non non: c'est...
R: ...eh pardon/
F: ni ulizo/
R: eh: si ni kuuliza: iko unauliza/ miye: [pauses] ku namna yangu niko nasadi: sina: na salamu/
F: na salamu/
R: ah sina/ Yesu: minayua asema alikufa mu msalaba/
R: kama minapenda: itaweza kuikala vile juu ya kukumbuka Yesu wetu alikufa mu msalaba/ juu ya kuweka hivi:
tutwangia ku magoti tuabudu: mi hapana/
F: vile nilikumbuka/
F: [claps] niliwaza vile/
F: kiisha: mu siku ya mwanzo....
R: mbele itafu: par: pardon/
F: ...kwanza nilifika hapa: nilikuwa kuangaria: sema ah: minashangaa/
R: ni: niko Catholique/
R: eeh niko Catholique/ hata pale: siwezi kukulanda/ yee sione kamata sauti/ siku moya: nilienda mu: [pauses] mu
fasi ya kusala: mu monastère/ minasalaka vile: juu ya kimya:
R: pale retraite/ [pauses] minikala: [pauses] banaweka msalaba ya Bwana Yesu pale chini:
R: unaona: prètre moya anatoka: anatosha bilatu/ anatwanga magoti/ banasi: wee unayua bien/ unayua vile?
R: twanga magoti: bifungula [claps]: kanguo moya: symbole eh?
F: oui oui/
R: kokota: eh: ku: kuimba: kufungula hii: bote sasa ba....
R: eh/ adoration/
F: mu eh: Semaine Sainte?
R: mu kazi tano/ mutakatifu/
F: oui: ah oui/
R: sasa: minaona: [pauses] banakwenda ku: kuabudu: banakuya: banatwanga milomo kule muti:
R: minasikia sauti asema hapana/ paka hivi/ sema [with emphasis] hapana kuabudu kintu/
R: minaikala kimya:
R: minakandanyika: nasema sasa batasema: mu Kristiani: muzima: nafundisha tu bantu mambo ya Mungu:
R: eko nakatala kwenda ku: twanga [pauses] mi musalaba milomo/
R: kubaiser musalaba/ minasikia boga eh? mbinguni kala
kimya: minasema: Seigneur: ni mapenzi yako? sema ndiyo/
[whispering] minaikala kimya/ minatoka/ siku moya mu kazi:
tena banasema uwaambia: ubaambie bale beko banafanya vile/
sikukatala/ nilisema na baPère Triaille: na bapère bale:
curé wa mu Charles Lwanga: minasema: haifaa kuabudu zanamu
bote: sema tuabudu: tuko naangaria/minasema mm/ kama
minatwanga mukono yote mbili:
R: unilama chini nabaiser: naabudu/
R: kule nilisema: mm mm/ ni kusadi/ sasa kiisha:
[pauses] mi minasema: niko nafanya kosa munene/ sasa pourquoi?
niko nasikia hii sauti/ inapendeza tu: nianze kuabudu/ wapi/
sasa: siku moya: [pauses] mama moya alikuwa na: [pauses]
zanamu yake ya Bikira Maria/
R: asikuiweke/ iko nanielezea asema: wee uko muKristiani
gani? hausadi: na zanamu: hausadi na kintu: uko nasadi
paka hivi/ naanza kusema: sauti inaanza kunitoka minasema:
Mungu ni roho tupu/ mambo yake ya prie dieu anakatala asema
musi: musinisadi na kintu kingine/
R: wale: musiniadorer na kintu kingine ku mbele yenu/ sasa: mi siyue: kama minakosa mimi: mi siyue/ alakini: mi
minafwata ni [pauses]
R: ni mawazo ya Mungu/ mi sipende ku: kukutolesha bintu
bingine/ kiisha: baprètres na ?balinijua asema: kama
minakufikia kule: ni wee moya/ hapana kuelezea bantu/ sawa
minakuwa siku moya: niko mule niko navwala ile nguo ile
mina: salaka: naye: minasikia sema: inapendeza [claps]
kuelezea bantu: wazi: bajue: kile minataka/ na batapata yote
beko naomba kwa jina langu/ minakuya: tunaanza kusadi:
minabaelezea byote/ [claps] kusikia/ [pauses] ule mwanamuke ule
alijimanifester: eh: ule alileta temoinage: vile: alikuya
R: alikuwa na maladi vile vile: ya sawa ya ule mwanamuke: wa wakati wa Yesu: anakuya bilijif: pita pake vile:
vile aliileza hapa/ unasikia?
21. F: There is something I observed here in your house. How shall I put it – long ago, when I visited people of the
Jamaa, and even now at Mama Rosalie's place.
F: I saw that they have pictures of Jesus, crucifixes, things like that. Here I see nothing (of the sort).
R: And [claps]:
F: No no, (this is not a criticism)...
R: ...well, excuse me.
F: It's a question.
R: Yes, and I have a question for you about your. [pauses] The way I do my praying I don't have a crucifix.
F: (Without) a crucifix.
R: Well, I don't have one. I know that Jesus died on a cross.
R: If I wanted to, there could be one to remember that our Jesus died on the cross. It would be put there so that
we may get down on our knees and worship it, but I don't do that.
F: That's what I realized.
F: [claps] I thought so.
F: Then, on the first day...
R: First it would – sorry (I'm interrupting).
F: ...when I first came here I kept looking around and I was surprised.
R: I am a Catholic.
R: Well, I am a Catholic. I cannot lie to you about this. I just don't see (the crucifix) taking on a voice.
One day I went to [pauses] a place of prayer, a monastery. I like to pray like that because there is silence.
R: There was a retreat. [pauses] I stayed there. [pauses] The cross of Lord Jesus was put there, on the ground.
R: Then you saw a priest who came out and took off his shoes. He knelt down – you are familiar with that,
R: (You) kneel down and remove (lit. open) [claps] this piece of cloth – it's a symbol, right.
F: Yes, yes.
R: Then (the cloth) was pulled away and there is singing while (cross) is exposed. Then they all (begin)....
R: Yes, (they begin) with the adoration (of the cross)
R: The adoration.
F: (This is done) during Holy Week?
R: On Holy Friday.
F: Yes, ah yes.
R: Then I saw [pauses] that they went (forward) to worship (the cross). There they kissed (lit. placed their lips
on) the wood.
R: I heard a voice saying no. Just like that. [with emphasis] No, don't worship an object.
F: I see.
R: I stayed quiet.
R: I didn't talk about it.
 I told myself they'll say now she is teaching theology to all
R: She refuses to go forward and put her lips to the crucifix.
R: To kiss the crucifix. I was afraid, you understand? Heaven remained silent, so I said Lord, is that what you
want? The answer was yes. [whispering] I stayed quiet and left. One day at work
 - and also, I was told, speak to them, to those who do those
things. I did not say no and talked about it to the likes of Father Triaille
 and the
pastor at (Saint) Charles Lwanga (college). I said, no
statue ought to be worshipped. (Their answer was) when we
worship we contemplate. No, I said, when I get down on both
R: ...and I kiss something that lies on the ground then I worship.
R: At that point I told myself mm mm, it is praying that we should do (not worshipping).
Then, later [pauses] I said I'm making a big mistake. Why did I listen to that voice? I ought to begin
worshipping No way. Then, one day [pauses] a woman (came) with her statue of the Virgin Mary.
R: She should not set it up, I told her. What kind of Christian are you? You don't pray with a statue, you
don't pray with anything, you pray just like that. As I began to talk a voice came from me. I said God is pure
spirit. He is against (paraphernalia like) prayer stools. Don't pray to me, He says, with (the help) of something
R: Or, don't worship me with (the help) of something you have before you. Now, I don't know whether I am
wrong, I just don't know. But what I follow are...
R: God's thoughts. I don't like other things to show my
devotion. Then, priests who knew me said if that
is (the conclusion) you came to it regards only you, don't
tell people about it. One day, I was in the midst of
putting on the dress I wear when I pray, I felt that I
should [claps] talk to the people openly. They should know what
I want and get everything they ask for in my name. I came
forward, we began to pray, and I told them everything.
[claps] (so that they would) understand. [pauses] (Then
there was) this woman who came forward and gave witness while
R: She had an illness like the one the woman had in the time of Jesus.
 She came forward and talked about what happened to her. You
22. R: kuko: bantu: beko na maladi ingine: [pauses] eko na bulozi: anashinda kukuelezea/ eko na kintu ndani/ pardon:
utaweza kusikia/ bulozi: ni kintu: unameza [swallow] ndani: hakuna namna ya kutoka/ kunaisha/ esprit impure inayenga
ndani ya roho yako/
R: sasa: hakukuwa namna ya [claps] kutosha/ mimi
nitasikia sauti na yee asema ah umubarikie hivi: sema hivi:
barikia makaa pake: sala hivi: minakuwa minafanya bile
byote: kunaisha/ unasikia? nakuwa elezea buloji bunaisha hauna
muangaria bya kweli hana na buloji/
R: [claps] minamuuliza asema: ka/ ni nini hivi? sasa mi nitaanza kusadi bila kitu/ sina mi hata na chapelet/
R: eh sina na ki:
F: paka bilatu unatosha?
R: eh: minatosha bilatu/
R: eh: ni sauti/ ni sauti:
F: c'est le tout/
R: eh [claps] kama minaikala vile: inapendeza nitoshe bilatu: avant ya...?...
F: [overlapping] tena: kama unasali: munaangaria mu direction wa:
R: ahah/ eeh/
F: hii ngambo/
R: eh: ou: hata hivi/
R: hata fa...?...
F: [overlapping] haina? [pauses]
R: hai: eh eh/ hata si nilifanya hapa: sini...?...
F: maneno sawa kama bantu na ba: na: sawa na musalaba: ao zanamu: banaangaria zanamu/
R: eeh: sasa:
F: hamuna naye:
R: hapana/ tuone...
F: ...?... angaria wapi?
R: hapana: kama sina na zamamu: sina na nini:
R: kama tuko nasadi utaweza kuangaria: kule kote anaangaria hata kule jua inatokea: juu ya kumushukuru Mungu/
kule jua inaanzia:
R: njo ile: kunaisha/ alafu...
F: ku jua: ku jua/
R: ah ku: eh/ kule jua iko nalamukia:
R: juu ya kushukuru: ni kintu kinene kya kuangaza bulongo/
R: inapendeza: namushukuru: ku: ile mwangaza ile ya jua: itua: ile iliangaza ya bulongo iituangazie: juu mwenye
D: njo kama: par example kama munasala: minaangaria pale mu ma: [pauses]
D: ...?...sijue: asema: bon/ eeh: par example ...?...Jesus/ eh: vie et mort hizi tu: hamusali kumbe? parce que
minafixer kile kintu unatrouver/ mais kama unasala Mungu moya:
D: hamuwezi na...?...ya pili/
R: njo vile yee/ yee mwenyewe pale alikuwa na sauti: alianza kufanya: alianza kusema vile/
D: paka ya haina Jesus atakuwa: eh: par example kile kintu/
D: tandis que [claps] Dieu est partout/ ni haina kuweka ma maimages: tout ça pour commencer à prier non/
R: pardon/ hivi tunaweka hivi/ si juu ya kutengeneza nyumba?
R: eh/ hakuna...
D: hata nani: kwa ornements quoi/ mais juu...
F: ile minajua: min: ile minajua/
D: [overlapping] ...?...
R: [overlapping] hivi:
F: maana yake:
R: eheh/ [chuckles]
F: yake ya Colonie Belge:
R: eeh/ bumbala/
F: ya simba:
F: lakini ile...?....
R: ...ile unafahamu: voilà/
D: c'est la même chose avec: des images de Jesu quoi/
D: ni ornements/ ah: pour questions de prier...
R: ...haifaa kuiweka: juu ya ku:
R: pardon/ sasa njo mi/ pardon/ mi sikisema ni: mi minakatala: kuona: crucifié/ non/
F: non non...?...
R: nitaweza kuangaria: pardon/
F: [overlapping] sikia: minasikia
R: nitaweza kuona: kukumbuka Yesu wangu: pasipo kusala/
F and D: mm/
R: Yesu wangu aliteswa juu yangu/ mi: juu ya mazambi yangu/ nacontinuer...
F: hata hii ni important/ kumbe: [pauses] kumukumbuka/
R: haina ku...
F: haina: haina kusali/
R: kuadorer/ hapana/ haina kusadi/
D: [overlapping] no/
R: kama minakumbuka: si ku sawa foto hii:
R: ya bwana yangu/ kama eko Kinshasa: minaangaria ni sema: bwana yangu alikuwa hivi/
R: sasa kama foto ya Mungu: unamudessiner: unafanya zambi/ juu: Mungu yee: ni roho tupu/
R: kama ni Yesu: abitufaa na mu dunia:
R: tutaweza kuya na images/
R: juu ya kumukumbuka/
R: sasa: haina ile images kuiweka pa: [pauses] pa fasi:
R: kutwangako magoti: nkundi: kuiangaria: uko nasadi: binaachana/ sasa pale ni sauti/ baliniuliza kuko [claps]
bantu bamingi: baliisha kuuliza na baprètres benyewe: juu ya nini?
F: hata Papa: c'est Papa ata: nafanya vile/
R: eh shee: pardon: pardon:
R: sina mu ngambo ya eh: kusema: nifwata muntu pa mukongo/ eh eh/
F: c'est vrais?
R: kama mambo ilinifikia: ilinifikia mimi peke/
F: vile oui/
R: sasa: sasa:
R: non: niko nasumbulia/
F: tumalize tu ma... [pauses]
D: [overlapping, asking a question] ...?...?
D: ...?.../ monastère/
R: pardon: alikuwa mu monastère: tuliisha kudiscuter hii mambo/ mita: mi: niingia mu nyumba ya Mungu: muko
images: muko Jesus mwenye kularika pale mwenye kufa: bintu bya mingi: binashimama: minasahabu sawa mi sione: kitu/
R: minaweka mu: mu mu attude yangu:
R: ni: ministère ya Mungu: mu attude yangu/ mi siyue/
R: minasema: minakuya wee: huko: juu ya kukuombe wewe Mungu wa mbinguni na duniani/
R: ?kuliniomba/ shusha/ mwanga yako: na kufungulia mulango:
R: tusikilizane na weye/ kunaisha/ tunaanza sala/
22. R: There are people who have another kind of illness.
[pauses] Someone who is afflicted by sorcery is unable to
tell you about it. He has a thing inside him – sorry, you
should understand this. Once you take it inside (lit. swallow
it), there is no way it will leave. That's it. An impure
spirit settles down (lit. builds) inside your soul.
R: So, there was no way to [claps] get rid of it. I would hear a voice that kept telling me bless the person,
bless his place, pray – I did all those things and that was it. You understand? I would explain that there was no
longer any sorcery. Truly, as far as he was concerned, he was free of sorcery.
R: [claps] I ask him would you believe it?
 What is it that I am doing? I am going to pray without any
paraphernalia. I don't even have a rosary.
F: Not even (a rosary).
R: No, I don't use anything.
F: Only your shoes you take off?
R: Yes, I take off my shoes.
F: I see.
R: Yes, it's the voice. The voice (tells me to do that).
F: (And) that's all.
R: Yes. [claps] When I sit down like this I should take off my shoes before ...?...
F: [overlapping] Also, when you pray you look in the direction of...
R: Ah, yes.
F: ...this side.
R: Yes, or like this.
F: [overlapping] There is no (set direction)?
R: There isn't, no. It's just what I did here...?...
F: (I am asking) because when people have a crucifix or a statue they look at the statue.
R: Yes. Now...
F: You don't have one.
R: No. Let's see.
F: ...?...where do you fix your eyes?
R: No. (How should I) when I don't have a statue or whatever.
R: When we pray you can look in any direction, or even where the sun appears, to thank God. Where the sun rises.
R: That's all there is to it. But...
F: Toward the sun, the sun.
R: Yes. Where the sun wakes up...
R: ...to give thanks. Bringing light to the earth is something great.
R: (God) should be thanked for this light, the light of the sun that gives light to the earth may give light to
us and He who rules over this may be praised.
 For example, when you pray I look there at the...
D: I don't know, anyway. Yes, for example, ...?.. Jesus. Well, don't you pray to him (when it comes to
questions of) life and death? Then I may gaze at this object you found.
 But when you pray to God alone...
D: ...you cannot...?...
R: That's how it was with her. At the time when she herself heard (lit. had) the voice that was what she did
and how she talked.
D: That doesn't mean that Jesus is, for example, this object.
D: Whereas [claps] God is everywhere. Images and all that are not needed to start praying, no.
R: Excuse me, but when we put (those objects) there is this not to decorate the house?
R: You see. There isn't...
D: ...just as ornaments, no? But when it comes....
F: ...that I know. That I know.
R: [overlapping] ...that way...
F: (I know) the reason for this.
R: Well. [chuckles]
F: (For putting up paintings) of Colonie Belge.
R: Yes, and Antelope.
F: Of the Lion.
F: But this...
R: ...that you know, there you are.
D: It's the same with pictures of Jesus, no?
D: They are ornaments. Whereas, when it comes to praying...
R: ...you don't have to put up any in order to (pray).
R: Excuse me, this is about me now, sorry. I would not say that I refuse to look at the crucified (Jesus), no.
F: No, no (that is not my point).
R: I may look at it him, sorry.
F: [overlapping] I understand.
R: I may see (a crucifix) and remember my Jesus, without praying.
F and D: Mm.
R: My Jesus suffered for me, for my sins. (Then) I go on...
F: This is an important point. So, [pauses] to remember Him.
F: It isn't...
R: I isn't
F: It isn't praying.
R: (Or) worshipping, no. It isn't praying.
D: [overlapping] No.
R: When I remember isn't that like with this photo...
R: ... of my husband. When he is in Kinshasa I look (at the picture) and tell myself, that's what my husband
R: Now, as regards an image of God, if you draw one you commit a sin. Because God is pure spirit.
R: When it comes to Jesus we need things
 on earth...
R: We may come up with images.
R: So that we remember Him.
R: Now, that is not the same putting up those images [pauses] in a place...
R: ... for a gathering to kneel down before them, looking at them and then you pray. I was asked (about this)
[claps] by many people, even by priests, why (are you against this)?
F: Even the Pope. It's the Pope who does it.
R: Well, we – sorry, sorry
R: As far as I am concerned...
R: I am not someone who follows (another) human being. No way.
F: Is that true?
R: Whenever something happened to me, it happened to me alone.
F: That's how it is, yes.
R: Now. Now...
R: No, I am in a conversation.
F: Let's just finish with.... [pauses]
D: [overlapping, asking a question] ...?...?
D: ...?... (about) the monastery...
R: Sorry, that was in the monastery. This is something we already discussed.
 I might go into a church where there images, for instance,
Jesus who is lying there, dead, lots of things standing around – I forget them, (it is) as if I didn't see
R: What I put my mind
R: ...is serving God. That's on my mind, I don't know.
R: What I am saying is I keep coming here to pray to you, God in heaven and on earth.
R: I pray let Your light fall and open a door.
R: Let us understand each other, that's all. Then we begin to pray.
23. sasa: pardon: niko namieleza: wee: sasa niko naposer question munene/ monsieur Jean/ kutawezi: iko foto ile fasi
[pauses] ya: pale niko nakatala vile/
R: iko foto? peut-être iko foto kwa dunia/
F: [overlapping] mi? kwa mi: non non/
R: pardon: iko foto kwa dunia: alakini sijue/
F: ile: kwa foto ha: c'est: na miye: sijue kitu/
F: mina: sawa vile nilisema: minaona minasikia tu/ ile: niliremarquer/ [pauses] hapana ya kusema: sababu ya nini
non non/ niliremarquer tu/ simplement/ sema...
R: ...pardon: nilikuambia ...?...
F: [overlapping] ...?...nilianza kuwaza: juu ya nini/ tena ?visitaa kwa miye/ sema: [pauses] paka vile ulisema
R: quoi de...
F: de bulozi: ndiyo/
R: eheh/ bon: njo vile mimi sitaki: kuabudu kintu...
F: ...tuko na: par example yee: ule [pauses] sijue: niko na rafiki kule ...
R: ...mais: mais: mais: pardon: mimi sipende: hivi/
F: hii tu/
R: kama: kama wee unalungula moto na mi minabeba: minaona nasema hii ni moto:
R: minabeba: minaweka pa mukulu: minaacha miye/
R: biko hivi/ kama tuko nakula: chakula hata bukari: minatosha buchafu: minakaa ku mpembeni
F: c'est ça/
R: unakulya bukari vizuri/ kimya: pasipo kukuuliza wee kintu/
R: si niko nakulya kimya?
R: mi sikuuliza kintu/
F: c'est ça/
R: niko nakulya bukari yangu: yuu busi nous fanya: maladi mu tumbo/
F: mm/ maneno [clears his throat] niliona ile mu: kwa rafiki: ya ku: ku nkundi ya Jamaa/ mais: sasa tuko na
nkundi: balitoka: catholique/
F: beko na: sawa: kanisa ya: ya Jamaa/ bo banakatala kufanya: [pauses]
R: alama musalaba/
F: hii signe ya: ya musalaba/ juu ya nini? balinielezea: angarie tu baKristiani banafanya tu kila mara kila mara
R: ...hata yee hapana kusema/ hata yee hapana kusema/
R: pardon/ atakuya: chakula iko chini: anafanya hivi/
R: yee hapana kusema kintu/
R: inapita hata unaikala kimya:
R: asema: [pauses] [muttering] Mungu baba Mungu mawana Mungu Roho Mutakatifu/
R: sasa: eko nafanya nini? sasa kama unafanya vile: unafanya nini?
R: si unacheza?
F: oui/ njo: njo balinifundisha vile/
R: njo ile/ sasa ku bile byote: [pauses] na hapa sasa: conclusion? njo ile niko minatafuta/
F: ah: conclusion/
R: siku moya nilianza kujiuliza: conclusion yangu ni ya hii mambo yote tunafanya ni:
R: ni yeye mwenyewe/
F: c'est bado: bado na conlusion/
23. Now, excuse me, I have been telling you things at length, now I ask you a big question, Monsieur Jean. There may
be a picture
 in this place [pauses] the one that was an occasion (to tell
you) that I am against (images).
R: Is this (really) a picture? Perhaps it is a picture from
 this world.
F: [overlapping] For me? No, no.
R: Sorry, it may be an image from this world but I don't know.
F: As to (what it is) a photo of, I also don't know a thing about this.
R: There you are.
F: As I said, I just see and hear and (the absence of images) was something I noticed. [pauses] To say why
don't you have images (was not meant as a reproach), not at all. It was simply something I noticed. To say...
R: ...sorry, I told you about it...
F: [overlapping] ... I began to think, why is this so? As far as I am concerned, [pauses] it is as you said just
a moment ago.
R: About what, about...
F: About sorcery, yes.
R: Yes. Alright, it's that I don't want to worship an object...
F: ...we have an example for this, this [pauses], I don't know, I have this friend there...
R: ...but, but, but. Sorry, I just don't like this.
F: Just so.
R: When you ask for heat (lit. fire)
 and I bring some I see that this is heat.
R: I bring it, put it at your feet, and leave it there.
R: That's how things are. When we eat, say, a meal of
 I clean up and stand aside.
F: That's it.
R: You enjoy eating your
bukari. I remain quiet, without asking you any questions.
R: I eat quietly, don't I?
R: I don't ask you any questions.
F: That's it.
R: I eat my
bukari in silence so that it does not make us sick in the stomach.
F: Mm. Because [clears his throat] there is something I observed among friends in the Jamaa (movement). But
nowadays we have one part (lit. group) that has left the Catholic church.
F: They have now their (own) church of the Jamaa.
 They refuse to make [pauses]...
R: ...the sign of the cross.
F: This sign of the cross. Why? They explained it to me. Just look at Christians who make (the sign) all the
R: ...whereby the person doesn't speak. He doesn't speak.
R: Sorry, but he'll come (home), food is ready (lit. on the ground), and he makes (the sign) like this.
R: He doesn't say a thing.
R: It happens that you remain quiet...
R: [pauses]...and then (you mutter) GodFatherGodSonGodHolySpirit.
R: May He be praised.
R: (And then) you eat.
R: So, what is he doing? When you do likewise, what are you doing?
R: Are you not putting on an act?
F: Yes. That's how they explained it to me.
R: That's it. What is the conclusion from all those things [pauses] and] from (what we talk about) right now?
That's what I am looking for.
F: Ah, a conclusion.
R: One day, I began to ask myself. My conclusion from all those things we are doing...
R: ...was that it is something a person does without thinking.
F: Not yet, it doesn't have a conclusion yet.
24. niko na: na kaulizo tena na: na: [pauses] surtout [pauses] weye hau: hausali peke yako/
R: mm/ ah minasala/
F: mais: tuko: tunaona: ma: mankundi ingine/
F: wee unasema mi sina na nkundi: bantu banafika tu: ilitokea tu vile/
F: mi sikufwata...
R: ...bantu/ mm/
F: mais: quand même: kwa mecho ya wapadri: hata askofu: anasema: tuko na mankundi ya sala/
R: nani alisema...?...?
R: bananiita nkundi ya Mama Régine/ bote wa kusema...
F: [overlapping]...ao ba...?...
R: ...mi si...
R: eh mi sina: charismatique: bo balileta jina/
F: bo balileta jina?
R: eheh/ bo banaandika: banasema/ nkundi yangu ni nkundi ya Mama Régine/ mi nkundi yangu: [pauses] haina nkundi
yangu hii/ bantu ba sala/ bale beko nafika nkundi...
R: ...banafika: habana na liste/
F: habana na liste/
R: eh non/ habana bantu yangu:
F: macotisations ...?...
R: non non: hainako/
R: kama bantu banafika: [pauses] tunasadi: kunaisha/ banaenda/
R: bantu ba modèle ingine bataweza kufika: tunasadi/
R: muntu anakuwa na maladi: anatoka mu nkundi fulani ya:
R: ya nani: mi nitamujuisha paka Mungu:
R: tunasadi: [claps] anaenda/ sitamuambia asema: juu ya hauna wa mwee kanisa:
R: toka/ minaombeaka paka bakanisa fulani: non/
F: tena ma:
F: ma: ma: maréunions: ile yote/
R: ile yote: beko natuita: saa ingine: banapitaka: biko sawa par la force/
F: oui oui/
R: sasa: kama mi nienda: saa ingine: kama tunasungumuza: ts: mi sisikie asema: bamingi: eh: tunafanana/
R: hapana/ bantu mi sisikie asema tunafanana/ minaikala kimya/
F: kama: kama unaona banani: Rosalie:
F: na kazi yake/ si kusema ni mubaya muzuri hapana/ mais: unaweza kusema tunafanana: tuko paka na kazi moya?
R: mh mh/
F: hapana/ munaachana/ [pauses] mu cha: mais: munaachana namna gani? yee anasali: we: wee unasali/
R: mh mh/ tunaachana/
R: eheh/ yee anafanyaka: hata prières yake: chapelet hata: hata tu ku shiku: banamuelezea vile:
R: na kusali ?maroho mecho...?...habana nao: iko namusalaka Mama Bikiria Maria mara moya mara mbili: kumuambia/
[pauses] minamulamukia bule: deux fois: trois fois/ njo kama minamulamukia wee: ni kuchoka/
R: minamulamukia mara mbili na kusema Maria [in tshLuba?]...?...
F: na kwa bo: ni paka...?...
R: mm eh/ iko kwanza: chapelet: kuwa nzulula encore: wee:
F: [overlapping] oui/
R: banasema chapelets tatu: banaanza: sasa: banaachana/ miye: mi sisema: sisadiaka: bamingi beko nasema: Mama
Régine yee hapana kusala Bikira Maria: non/ niko nasadi/
R: namulamukia mara moya: mara mbili/
R: kiisha: [pauses] minaimuimbia: ile mimbo aliiimba ile iko mu bible/
R: Magnificat/ le Seigneur: suffit pour moi/
R: eheh/ mara wangu unamusi: [interrupting herself] eheheh: [claps] tunasumbulia wee: hakuna hata kintu
anakunywa: [whispers to her daughter] hakuna ya...?...?
F: hapana: hapana: hapana...
R: [sings] uu uyu huu...
R: [overlapping] pardon: wee njo ule kumbisha/
F: [overlapping]...?...avec Rosalie/
F: avec Rosalie/ tutamalizika hii/
R: mm mm/ hata vile/ [to her daughter] dis: wee uta...
F: ...?...tunaanza kuchoka vile/
R: hata pombe na kisu na nani: [claps] aaaah: hapana/ na Orangeade hata mbili/ [claps] mama/
F: ile: tusu: tusumbulia bien/
R: yooo: pardon pardon pardon/ mbele leta/ leta leta/ leta da: [claps]...
F: hakuna pombe?
D: [overlapping]...?... maman?
R: niko: ah: wee unasema niko na nani?
D: na uta...?...[in tshiLuba?]...
R: basi: ba: mama Madi: mama Martine....
24. I still have a small question about [pauses[ above all [pauses] (about the fact that) you don't pray alone.
R: Mm. Well, I do.
F: But we see other groups.
F: You say I don't have a group, people just came, it just happened.
F: I'm not after ...
R: ...people. Mm.
F: Still, in the eyes of the priests (you are) and even the bishop says that we have prayer groups.
R: Who said this ...?...?
R: My group is called (lit. I am called) the group of Mama Régine. Anyone who says...
F: ... or they (call them)...
R: ...I'm not...
R: Well, I am not a Charismatic, they gave (me) that name.
F: Others gave (you) that name?
R: Yes. They write it, they say it. My group is the group of Mama Régine. As far as I am concerned, my group
[pauses] is not my group. People who pray are the ones who come as a group...
F: ...we say...
R: ...they (just come), they don't have a list (of members).
F: They don't have a list.
R: Well, no. They are not my people.
F: What about membership fees?
R: No, no, there aren't any.
F: I see.
R: When people come [pauses] we pray, that's it. Then they go (home).
R: Other kinds of people may come, we (just) pray.
R: A person who is ill may come from some group...
R: ...whatever it is. All I do is make him know God.
R: We pray [claps] and he goes (home). I'm not going to say to him, because you don't belong to a
R: ...go away. I only pray for people who belong to a certain church, no.
F: Nevertheless, there are the...
F: There are the meetings and all that.
R: All that – they call us, sometimes they visit. Those are things that happen by some force.
F: Yes, yes.
R: Now, when I go out and when, sometimes, we have a conversation, I don't hear many saying that we
 resemble each other.
R: No, I don't hear people saying that we resemble each other. I keep silent.
F: When you see, say, those (who follow) Rosalie.
F: And the work she does. The point is not to say whether it is bad or good, but rather, could you say we
resemble each other, we do the same work?
R: Not at all.
F: No. You are different. [pauses] But how do you differ? She prays, you pray.
R: Not at all. We are different.
F: You are different.
R: Yes. She usually does her prayers by saying the rosary, mostly during the day. That's what she was told.
F: I see.
R: And to pray with...?...they don't have. She usually prays to Mother Virgin Mary, (saying the rosary) once
or twice I talked to her. [pauses] I went to greet her, two or three times, this is meaningless. Because when I go on
greeting her I end up getting tired.
R: I greet her twice by saying Mary [in tshiLuba?]...?...
F: And what they do is just (repetition).
R: Mm, yes. It begins with the rosary and goes on endlessly.
F: [overlapping] Yes.
R: They say the rosary three times and then start again – now, they are different. I don't say that I never
pray (that way). Many say that Mama Régine doesn't pray to the Virgin Mary. No, I pray (to her).
R: I greet her once, twice.
R: And then [pauses] I sing for her the hymn she sang, the one that is in the bible.
R: Magnificat, the Lord (be praised) – that's enough for me.
R: Yes. For me this is when you praise Him... [interrupting herself] For heaven's sake [claps] we have been
talking forever and there is nothing to drink.
 [whispers to her daughter] Is there nothing...?....?
F: No, no, no.
uu uyu huu...
F: ...let's go on talking...
R: [overlapping] Sorry (about that) but you are the one who keeps arguing.
F: [overlapping] ...?... (About you relation) with Rosalie.
F: (Your relation) with Rosalie, let’s finish that.
R: Mm, mm. that doesn't matter. [To her daughter] Say, you should (get....
F: (It's just that) we are getting a bit tired.
R: ...some beer and an opener (lit. a knife) [claps], aah, no. And (a bottle of) Orangeade or two. [claps] Mama,
(how did I forget to offer a refreshment)?
F: It's nothing, we are having a good conversation.
R: Oh sorry, sorry, sorry. Bring something right away, just get something [claps]...
F: Is there no beer?
D: [overlapping] ...?... mama?
R: I have – what are you saying I have?
D: [in tshiLuba]...?...
R: Alright, at mama Martine's...
25. F:...mais: siwezi ku: kukuuzi tena mais:
R: hapana: wee useme/
F: niko na: na: niko na ulizo: sawa vile nilikuelezea mu: hii: mara ya kwanza/ zaidi zaidi: depuis: vingt ans/
ile: nilifwata: hii kazi yangu nilifwa: ilikuwa tu: kufwata: kusikia mambo ya: hii nkundi ya Jamaa/ ya Père Placide/
R: lakini mimi siyue/ [chuckles]
F: ah: mwe: wee hakufahamu kintu juu ya Jamaa: hamu...
F: ... hamu: hamuone?
F: hamufahamu bantu wa...
R: niko na bantu banakuyaka huku: balipita mu Jamaa:
R: banafika kuharibisha paka sala/
F: c'est vrai?
N: oui oui/
R: kama anakuya: [pauses] anatafuta: [pauses] uu: u...
F: ... ni vraiment: ni muntu: ni baba ao mama wa Jamaa: ao ni: ni...
F: ...bali: bali...
R: eh eh/
F: ...kuwa Jamaa?
R: paka bantu: banakuya hapa:
R: bengine banachanger: na mafundisho yangu/
R: eheh/ banachanger: banaacha Jamaa lote/ nabafundisha bikweli minabaeleza nasema: non/ huku hakuna mambo ya
F: mais: au fond...
R: hakuna/ eh mi...
F: au fond: muliona Jamaa ni: ilikuwa kintu [pauses] à part/ tangu mwanzo ilikuwa kintu kibaya?
R: kibaya/ kibaya sana/
R: hmm/ ni kibaya/ [claps]
F: mais juu ya nini?
R: eh: si mifano? pardon/ kama unakuya hapa/
R: unanione: minakuwa sumbulisha kintu ingine/
R: unaona: niko nafanya kintu ingine/
R: sasa: hautaona asema iko mubaya/ [pauses] mi niko nafanya kintu ingine: niko nasumbulia: kintu...
F: oui/ ile minafanya tena minaona/
D: sucré inaisha/
R: [to her daughter] uelezee ...?...
N: mbele ku ...?....
F: mais: [noise] minafahamu...
F: ...bamingi: mu Jamaa: na mi siwezi ku: banaachana/ beko babaya: beko ba: bazuri/ siwezi kusema:
R: pardon/ ni miye: na mi nitaweza kuelezea/
R: Jamaa haina kintu minafwata/ bale minajua/ bantu ba Jamaa: njo balianza kusala na mi pamoya/
R: bale banakuya: minaona na idées:
R: haina: ts...
F: mais idées yabo: kwa: kwa wee: hii idées yabo ni nini?
F: paka kuchangachanga babibi? non: c'était pas répeté/
R: humu? hehe [chuckles]
F: kwa Jamaa/
R: humu hapana: si: ni idées yabo...
F: [overlapping] balibastaki: bastaki vile/
R: idées banasitaki: bale ba: anajisitaki hata yee mwenyewe/ anasema: minafwata hivi na hivi: bilikuwa hivi:
bilikuwa hivi: bile ya kuchanga bile bya:
R: changa wabibi: iko be...
D: ...nauza nini?
D: oui/ hainako/
R: hata ile ya: ...?...?
F: ...?...verre de bière...
R: verre de bière/ bière ikoamo/
F: à la fin/ à la fin/
R: eheh: bote à la bière?
N: oui mama/
D: deux? moya?
F: kufwata: non/
R: [in tshiLuba?] ...?...
F: [overlapping] ...hata moya/
R: bon/ oh: semaka ba...
F: ...bon/ kumbe: wee uko ...?...convaincue que: bote banafanya vile?
R: pardon/ siwezi kujua/
F: hatuwezi kujua?
R: eh: bo bajua: sasa hapa: si bo anasema tuko baCharismatiques?
N: ah: yee: hauwezi: hana: yee hapana...
R: ...mi siwezi kujua/
N: mi niko hapa: de ceux catholiques de naissance/
N: bon/ minayua: charisma: yaa: mankundi mbali mbali/
N: bon/ kuko: par: par example: yee iko après kuwa sala hapa: iko na groupe yake: bantu banakuya ba toute sorte/
N: parmi bale bantu kunafika bengine: bantu balikuwa mu groupe de Jamaa/
F: de Jamaa/
F: oui oui/
N: banafika: banamuelezea ah: Mama Régine: ile groupe iko mubaya/
N: yee anauliza mubaya ya ni: juu ya nini? anasema il y a des fois: beko banachanger babibi na babwana: babwana
N: banaexpliquer vile/
N: yee anasema: c'est un peché:
N: ya: haiteshi/
N: c'est très mauvais/ sasa mingi: pale banasikia vile: yee anasema vile anasema: c'est n'est pas
N: mingi banatoka/
N: bengine banabakia: mais hatuyue kama anacontinuer paka: vile: ou bien baliisha kuacha juu ya ki...?...
R: pardon/ haina paka...
F: ...banaachana sana sana/ beko sawa na mankundi ya namna tatu wa...?.../ Jamaa: si kusema ni Jamaa moya/ non
non/ beko na: bale bantu: bali: bali: bali...
R: [in tshiLuba] Tshisovu Tshisatu/
F: bali: tubu: na bali: balifanya abjuration: bali...
R: ...quatre: Troisième: Troisième Testament...
F: hii: non non non/
N: hapana: sawa benye tubu/
F: ...sawa ule bwana:
F: na Ndala Marcel:
F: bale bengine/
N: ...bale baNdala Marcel balikuwa mu Jamaa mbele?
F: Ndala Marcel?
N: eh: alikuwa mu Jamaa?
F: oh alikuwa: muntu ya mu mwanzo/
N: ya Jamaa?
N: [with hesitation] bon.
F: ule: iko mu Likasi sasa/
N: si si/
F: oui/ [with emphasis] oui/ c'est un très grand...?...
F: depuis zamani/ tena ba: balimuingisha kwa Baba nani: Ples: Placide Tempels/
N: ah bon/
F: ndiyo/ depuis zamani/ kumbe: bo: balikuwa na ni: na
nani: na: ts: nkundi moya balikatala kutubu/ sema non:
hatuna na: tunajua ile mambo banasema tunachanga babibi:
mais: shee: hatufanye vile/ kumbe hatuna kintu kwa: ya kutubu:
ku: kumbe: tunakatala waaskofu/ sasa beko sawa inje sawa
N: banakatala askofu...
R: ...Tshisovu Tshisatu/ njo Troisième Testament ile beko nasadi sasa/
N: ni: ni groupe ile beko naita asema: Troisième...
R: ...Testament/ na yo...
F: [protesting] ah...
R: ... na yo aliikala: na yee aliikalaka/
N: ni ingine na yo/
F: na tena ingne: banjitaya sasa Jamaa Takatifu mu Afrika/ beko: sawa eklesia légale/ asema: kumbe bako:
F: shee: wezi: kuacha mafundisho ya Placide: tunafwata tu: kama bo: hatuna Protestants: hata kintu: mais: inafaa:
F: indépendent: mu ...?...bali: bali nani: balifanya maconditions yote:
F: mm? maconditions yote: kudéposer: argent: service social: ile maconditions:
F: ça/ na: banaiti: bana ku gouverneur: bana: banabaitika: sawa...
N: ...banaapprouver sawa eklesia inajulikana/
R: bon: mais: mais:
R: merci messieurs: mais: miye: [pauses] sijue kipaka tena kintu moya/
F: no no/
R: njo vile: pardon/ vile si: sinasema niko natafuta/
R: niko nasadi/ kama utananifikia na mambo ya vile: nitamuuliza vile alipata/
R: hata huyu hapana paka baJamaa/ kuko bakanisa ingine anatafuta kuchanger/
R: kama anakuya siku moya: anaikala: niko nafundisha: tunasadi/ asema tiens?
R: siyuaka asema/
F: ah: kama tunakamata ile Simba:
R: muzuri sana...
25. F: I must not go on bothering you but...
R: No, you just say (what is on your mind).
F: ...I do have a question. As I told you when we met for the first time, for twenty years the project I pursued
more than any other has been to understand what the Jamaa movement is about, the one (founded) by Father Placide.
R: But I don't know (it). [chuckles]
F: Ah, you don't know a thing about the Jamaa, you don't...
F: ... you don't see it?
F: You don't know people who...
R: I do have people coming to this place who passed through the Jamaa.
R: They just come to disrupt prayer.
F: There we are,
F: Is that true?
N: Yes, yes.
R: When (such a person) comes [pauses] he seeks to (cause trouble)...
F: ...is this really a person who is a baba or a mama of the Jamaa or is it...
R: They really are.
F: ...people who...
R: No no.
F: ...used to be Jamaa?
R: Just people who come to this place.
R: Some of them change sides, to my teaching.
F: I see.
R: Yes. They change sides, the leave the Jamaa altogether. I teach them things that are true and tell them no,
here is no room for matters of the Jamaa.
F: But essentially ...
R: There isn't, I...
F: Essentially you looked at the Jamaa as something [pauses] that was different. Was it a bad thing from the
R: A bad thing, a very bad thing.
F: All of them?
R: Well, it is a bad thing. [claps]
F: But why?
R: Hey, aren't there (enough) examples? Sorry, when you come here...
R: ...you see that I begin a conversation about something else.
R: You see that I am doing something different.
R: Now, you won't see this as something bad. [pauses] I am doing something different, which is what I talk
F: Yes, l do, I see (it).
D: We are out of soft drinks.
R: [to her daughter] Tell ...?...
N: First (go) to ...?...
F: But [noise] I do know...
F: ...many people in the Jamaa and I cannot – they are different. There are those who are bad, there are those
who are good. I cannot say...
R: Sorry, it's (about) me. And I can explain it.
R: The Jamaa is not something I am interested in. The members of the Jamaa I know are the ones who began to pray
together with me.
R: Those who come, I see they have ideas...
R: ...that aren't, how shall I say...
F: But their ideas, what are they in your opinion.
F: Just to keep swapping wives? No, that was not done all the time.
R: Here? [chuckles]
F: In the Jamaa.
R: Not here, it's their ideas...
F: [overlapping] ...they were accused of that.
R: The ideas were blamed. A person may even accuse himself. I did this and that, this is how it was, this thing
R: ...swapping wives, That is...
D: ...what am I to buy?
D: Yes, there isn't any.
R: Not even...?
F: (Perhaps) a glass of beer.
R: A glass of beer. There is beer.
F: At the end, (after we have finished).
R: Alright, beer for everyone?
N: Yes, mama.
D: Two? One?
F: One after the other, no.
R: [in tshiLuba]...?...
F: [overlapping] Just one.
R: Alright, go on talking...
F: ...fine. So, you are convinced that (swapping wives) is something all (members of the Jamaa) do?
R: Sorry. I cannot know (this for certain).
F: We cannot know?
R: No, they know. Right now, there are those who say we are Charismatics, don't they?
N: Ah, she cannot...
R: I cannot know.
N: Take me, I am one of those Catholics by birth.
N: Alright, I know about the charisma of groups that are different.
N: Alright. For example, there may be someone who, after having prayed here, has his own group. All sorts of
people come here
N: Among those people who come, there are some who used to be in a group of the Jamaa.
F: Of the Jamaa.
F: Yes, yes.
N: They come and say, ah, Mama Régine, this group is bad.
N: She asks, why bad? The answer is that it happens that they swap wives and husbands, husbands and wives.
N: That's what they explain.
N: She says that is a sin.
N: One that is not forgiven.
N: Something that is very bad. Now, many, when they hear her saying that this is no good...
N: ...many leave (the Jamaa).
N: Others stay but we don't know whether they go on or whether they already left because of...
R: Sorry. It's not only...
F: ...among them there are great differences. They have something like three branches. There is not one Jamaa,
no, no. Among them are those who...
R: [in tshiLuba]
F: ...who recanted
 and went through abjuration. They...
R: ...(others started) the fourth or rather Third Testament
F: Not that, no no.
N: No, (we are talking about) those who recanted.
F: They recanted.
N: They did...
F: Like this baba
F: And Ndala Marcel.
F: And those others.
F: Others (were)...
N: ... the likes of Ndala Marcel used to be in the Jamaa?
R: I don't know.
F: Ndala Marcel?
N: Yes, was he in the Jamaa?
F: Oh, he was a pioneer.
N: Of the Jamaa?
N: [with hesitation] Alright (if you say so),
F: (Ndala) now lives in Likasi.
N: Yes, yes.
F: Yes. [with emphasis] Yes indeed. He is a real big one.
N: I see.
F: Since long ago. Also, he was initiated by Father Placide.
N: Ah, alright.
F: Yes, long ago. And then there was one branch (of the Jamaa) that refused to recant. No, they said, we have
nothing (to recant). We know that there is talk of swapping wives but we don't do that. Therefore we have nothing
to recant and refuse (to obey) the bishops. So, now they don't know where they are, outside or inside (the church).
N: They resisted the bishop....
R: ... (That is)
Tshisovu Tshisatu. That's Third Testament they now pray.
N: It's that group they call Third...
R: ...Testament. And it...
F: [protesting] Ah.
R: ...and it still exists, it is still around.
N: It is not the same as (what we are talking about).
F: And there is yet another branch. They call themselves
Jamaa Takatifu mu Afrika. They are like a church before the law. The Catholics won't have anything to do
F: But we cannot abandon the teachings of (Father) Pacide, we follow them like the others. We are not Protestants
or whatever but we need to be...
N: ... independent.
F: Independent. And so they met all the conditions (for starting a church).
F: You understand? All the conditions, such as depositing a sum of money, maintaining social services – those
(kinds of) conditions.
F: That was it. And at the governor's office they were accepted.
N: ... they were approved as a recognized church.
R: Fine, but, but...
N: [overlapping] ...?...
R: Thanks gentlemen
 but I, [pauses] I don't know a thing about this..
F: No no.
R: Sorry, that's how it is. I can't say this is something I (want to) pursue.
R: I pray. Should someone come to me with such problems I'll ask him how he got them.
R: It is not only members of the Jamaa, there are people from other churches who want to change.
R: If (such a person) comes one day and stays I teach and we pray. Really, he says?
R: I never knew this.
F: Well, what about having that (glass of) Simba.
R: Very well.
26. F: bon/ hii...
F: raison/ raison/
F: si unaona ku: ile wakati nilifika: mu eh: [pauses] nilifika mara ya kwanza/
F: sawa six: soixante six/
F: kama tuliangaria: aaah: maactivités kwa ndani ya: ya Catholiques/ [pauses] ile: mambo ya: sawa: ts: banasema
kusali ao Charismatiques: haio: haionekane: ile wakati/ soixante-six: ts: mi: sikuone kintu/ hata/ mais pengine
ilikuwako/ mais: sikuona/
R: hayatokea inje/
F: c'est ça/ c'est ça/ ilikuwa tu: nini? Légion Marie: Jamaa: na: Mouvement Fali: Familial kiloko kiloko
quoi/ mais Jamaa ilikuwa nguvu sana/ presque bote/ bale maCatholiques: Catholiques prâtiquants ...?...kama uli: kama
uli: uliingia mu: mu nyumba ya Mungu...
R: ...ça Mama Rosalie: si alikuwa mu Jamaa?
F: eh? oui/ hapa: mu nani: mu: SNCZ: hata ku cathédrale: balikuwa tu Jamaa Jamaa Jamaa/ ile wakati ile/
F: sasa: kazi yangu:
F: ile: ni: kusikia vile: [pauses] baliendelea wapi:
balifanya nini: balifanya nini/ sasa minafika tena sema: ah
[pauses] kumbe ça a changé/ habana tena peke yabo/ bengine:
[pauses] baa: balitoka/ na bale bengine balitoka: surtout:
ni bale ba mu nkundi ya saa/ eh? ni vile: niliwaza: ah:
R: eh njo baCharismatiques ya nini? njo vile ulijiuliza/
F: niliu: eh? njo: njo: njo ilikuwa kazi yangu/
R: pardon/ habana ba ka: ba: bale balitoka/ hakuna muntu: hatuna na bale/
R: pengine paka bale beko mu: bale beko nasadi: njo banafikaka/ njo miye: pekangu: peke yangu mi sisadi: paka
R: juu ya nini mi hapana weka prière mu: mu dimanche asubui ? njo mitakuwa: nita: empêcher kwenda ku misa/
R: voilà/ minakatala/ muende ku misa mu...
F: bengine banafanya vile?
F: ba: ba:
R: eeh/ baingine habaendake/ banasadi vile/
F: eeh oui/
R: pardon/ siwezi kujioccuper: kuko bengine bo: [pauses] hatuwezi kufanya prières: mu eh: dimanche:
F: c'est ça/
R: eeh/ mi sitaki ya kufanya concurrent: juu: bo: kama minaacha mu: mu kazi tatu:
R: mu kazi tano: ni juu ya maombi ya ba:
R: ba: bamaladi/ kama minaacha: bo: minabaeleza asema: dimanche: inependeza kwenda ku misa/
R: kusadi vile vile/
R: kuadu: kuitika adoration ya: wasaserdos ile iko na: adorer/
R: tu: kajitolea: sadaka pamoya: na saserdos:
R: juu ya: misa/ kunaisha/ na miye: sikala: si [pauses] basi kujua bien/ na sipende maproblèmes ku hii: na: hata:
ni weye minajibu vile juu ya zanamu/
R: muntu mwengine kama ananiuliza mara moya minasema: jua ya ku mi hapana: eh sijue kipère/
R: minasadi kunaisha/ usiniuliza bya: bya zanamu na hivi: mi minasala/ kunaisha/
R: mm/ minasalaka: c'est fini/ [claps] na bantu mi siita muntu: sina na liste: sina na nini: ni kusali tu
R: Mungu eko natenda mapendo yake: njo ma: unaona bantu beko nafanya vile/
R: sasa: kuulisha kwa bantu bakunielezee: ile saa unanielezea mambo ya Jamaa: njo minakujibu vile/ atakuya
atafanya démarrer asema: mi niko na puissance/ eeh j'ai: mi: j'ai vu quelque chose: minaona hivi: kama unasadi
R: utasikia asema: pale nilianza kusali: Yesu alinielezea vile/ vile anakueleza:Yesu iko wapi? alikuelezea/ inje?
unamuona mu inje? asema alikuwa na ndevu/ minasema aliingia?
R: kwenda ukatiza/ nia ni tusadi Mungu/
R: kiisha kama anamuli: pale tulisadi: bale bantu bawili bamuprière balikuwa kwangu ku busiku na bulozi minasema
non/ toka/ [claps]
R: ao fwata sala/ njo bintu bile minafanyaka/
26. F: Alright, about this...
N: [overlapping] ...?....
F: The reason, there is a reason (why I talk about the Jamaa).
F: You see, when I came to (Katanga) [pauses] - I arrived for the first time...
F: ...in '66.
F: Looking at activities among Catholics [pauses] at that time there was no sign of what they now call praying or
Charismatics. I saw nothing of that in '66, nothing at all. It may have been there but I didn't see it.
R: It had not come out in the open yet.
F: That's it. That's it. What was there? The Legion of Mary, the Family Movement but they were not very
important. Whereas Jamaa was very strong. Almost all the practicing Catholics (belonged to the Jamaa). When you went
into a church (you could see it)...
R: ...about that – wasn't Mama Rosalie in the Jamaa?
F: You see? Yes. Here (in Lubumbashi) in the railway company settlement, even around the cathedral, in those days
everyone belonged to the Jamaa.
F: Now, my work is...
F: ...to understand how [pauses] they developed and what
they have done since. Well, now that I am back again
[pauses] (my conclusion is that) that things have changed.
They are no longer among themselves. Some [pauses] have left
(the Jamaa) and from among them, above all, come those who
are now in a prayer group. You understand? So I thought I
must understand (why).
R: Yes, that is why you asked yourself what the Charismatics are about. That was your question.
F: That (was my question), you understand? And that was what my (research) work was about.
R: Sorry, but those (who come to us) are not from the branch of the Jamaa that left (the church), not a single
person. We don't have any of them.
R: Maybe only those who are (already) in prayer groups keep coming. As far as I am concerned I don't just
pray by myself.
R: Why I don't schedule prayers on Sunday morning? If I did, it would be in the way of them going to mass.
R: There you are. I am against that. You should go to mass on (Sunday).
F: Are there some who do this?
F: Those (who do this).
R: Yes. Some don't go (to mass), they just pray.
F: I see.
R: Sorry, I cannot be bothered with what others do. [pauses] We cannot do prayers on Sunday.
F: That's it.
R: Right, I don't want to be a competitor. When I omit (group praying) on Wednesday...
R: ...or Thursday this is because of prayers...
R: ...for the sick and when I do this I tell them that they should go to mass on Sunday.
R: (That is) also praying.
R: Worshiping, being devoted to worship, to what the priests do when they worship.
R: One should offer oneself together with the priest...
R: ... to (celebrate) mass, that's all. And I am not at ease with it [pauses], I don't really know (why).
I dislike the problems with that – that was my response to you (when we talked about) images.
R: When some person asks me about that I say I don't know about that, I am not an expert in matters of
theology (lit. priesthood).
R: I pray, that's all. Don't ask me about (worshiping) images and things like that. I pray, that's
F: That's all.
R: Mm. I keep praying, that's all. [claps] And as to people (who come to me) I don't call anyone, I
don't have a list or what not, it's about praying (to) God, that's all.
R: God practices His love, that is what you see people doing (when they come together to pray).
R: Now, about interrogating people to get information from them – when you talked to me about matters of the
Jamaa I responded to you. Someone may come and start saying I have powers, I saw something – in my view, if you are
praying (such a person) is a nuisance.
R: Just when I began to pray you might hear him saying that is what Jesus told me. Where was Jesus when he talked
to you? Outside? Did you see him on the outside? The answer was, he had a beard. Did he come inside, I said?
R: Go, cut it out. Remember what we do is pray to God.
R: Then (there was the case) of those two people, members of a prayer group, who came to me one evening with (a
matter of) sorcery.
No, (I said), get out (of here). [claps]
R: Or keep to prayer. Those are the kinds of things I do.
27. F: hii mambo ya bulozi/ [pauses] ni kitu ya nguvu:
F: kwa kusikia/
F: [pauses] si: bamissionaires eh? bazamani balisema: [pauses] hii bulozi: ni paka maidées ya mankambo yenu/
R: bankam: bankambo gani?
F: [overlapping] haexister/ si vile balisema?
R: mhmm/ [chuckles]
F: si vile balisema?
R: juu ya: wee si uko muzungu?
R: mi ni muntu mweusi/
R: miye: [pauses] kuwazia ku butoto yangu: kama minalala mu nyumba/ mulozi yee: analala mule mu nyumba:
banabaanga / humu mu nyumba kuna te:
R: kunatoka muntu moya eko mukini:
R: analala mu nyumba humu eh?
N: ni nduku yangu/
R: analala mu nyumba humu: mulozi/
N: ...du village/
F: na wee/ ile/
R: nguvu ya Mungu ile: si Mungu tuko nasali kwa nguvu/
N: [overlapping] tuko ba: conflit/
R: alimubamba hivi/
R: mi nitaweza kuikala paka hivi: wee uko nasesema bulozi hapana:
R: bulozi ni nini? pardon/
F: oui/ unielezee/
R: [overlapping] bulozi: bulozi haina idée/ basi kulanda/ mi niko muntu ya humu nitakueleza wazi wazi/
R: haina idée/ ni muntu mweusi: [pauses] depuis minawaza bulozi hakuna paka bantu beusi/
F: hata kwa shee bantu ba: ba:...
R: beko nabo/ bazungu: beko na bulozi/
F: ndiyo/ tena bana: banajua/
R: kama na ma...
F: ...mais inafaa..
R: ...kama muntu eko na magie yake/
R: pardon/ njo ile minatafuta kuvumbulia/ muntu iko na magie yake/ alienda: kuita bibi wa magie/ si vile? si mwee
ku bazungu hakuna babibi benginge: babwana bingine beko na babibi: beko na babibi wa magie/
R: ni bulozi/
F: ni bulozi/
R: voilà/ sasa muntu mweusi: bulozi ni kintu: miye: kama una: unazalikwa haukiyue:
R: [pauses] hau: wee kujua na vile utakufa/ minajua nje: ile mambo ya bulozi/ prière njo ananijuisha bulozi/
R: bwana iko hapa/ naona muntu anaingia asema: mimi niko na bulozi/ [pauses] ku: bulozi ni esprit impure/
unamuuliza anakuelezea sema ni njo kule ya fulani: njo kule ya hivi: ni...
N: ...?...ni nani?
R: na: Batelette/
R: nilifanya hivi: nilifanya hivi/
R: ukimuulize muzuri asema ulikudya namna gani? [pauses] atakuelezea bien asema [pauses] kama: mi nikala: hii
nyumba plafond paka hivi atatoka inje/ atatoka tu muzima/ muntu mweusi/ busiku/
R: ataweza kutokea: iko wapi? si vile?
N: ataweza kutokea par fenêtre:
R: ka ?gara tundu:
N: a...?... ni hivi:
R: mu nini? ah ni...
N: ...nyumba iko fermé:
F: ...?...sawa kamuntu ka:
R: mundege: eeh/
R: anajifanya kandege:
R: voilà: eh/
N: kama: petite souris:
R: yeeh: aaah: anatoka/ beko niexpliquer: mu: mu:
F: hata ilikuwa ku mu ndoko/ ku ndoto?
R: hapana: ku ndoto kiloko/ paka vis-à-vis/
R: anatoka/ beko nasema: beko naenda ku fête/
R: beko naexpliquer/ kama minamuambia asema tuomba Mungu: mi sione mi bamba ya bulozi/
R: tunaomba Mungu: kunaisha/ sasa sikia bulozi mwenyee vile bulikuwa/ example: minaona mutoto yangu/ batoto yangu
mi/ kama niko nasadi Mungu kabisa:
R: bulozi: bantu beusi banapatianaka hivi: anakula: anapata bulozi/
R: sasa ku ba: ku: nniona batoto yangu/ batoto yangu: bataweza kupata bulozi nje/
R: kama unasadi Mungu bulozi bo habutakuya/ si esprits
impures beko napakia? njo maana idées yenu ilikuwa muzuri/
ya kusema bulozi habunako/ habunako kwa ule: yee hapana
kubuitika/ habunako/ kama alifika ku bupaka paka kumutosha/ na
masala [claps] njo anakuwa muzuri/
F: kumbe: kama bantu bananguka: njo kusema ni signe: ya....
R: [overlapping] ...ya bubaya/
F: ya bubaya/
F: na kama banaanza kusema: [pauses] kusema s: kwa: mara ingine banaa: banaanza kusema mu sauti ya muntu ingine/
R: ooh/ si njo ile yote ni mubaya/ c'est par le shetani moya/
R: c'est mauvais/ pale anaanguka anaanza kusema/ shetani atalanda/ mi niko Kaseka: mi niko fulani: ni paka
shetani/ si vile?
27. F: About those matters of sorcery. [pauses] It's something difficult...
F: ... to understand.
F: [pauses] Didn't the missionaries say in the old times [pauses] this sorcery is only some ideas of your
R: What ancestors?
F: [overlapping] It does not exist. Was this not the way they talked?
R: Mm. [chuckles]
F: Was this not the way they talked?
R: They did.
R: About that – you are White, no?
R: I am a Black.
R: I [pauses], thinking back to my childhood, when I slept in a house a sorcerer would sleep in that house.
(Sorcerers) would linger around (to bewitch people). In this house here...
R: ...a certain person appears who is from the village.
R: He sleeps here in the house, you understand?
N: He is a relative of mine.
R: He sleeps here in the house (and turns out to be) a sorcerer.
N: [overlapping] ...?... someone...
N: ...from the village.
F: (A relative) of yours in this case.
R: It was God's strength, the one we fervently pray to God for ...
N: [overlapping] We had a conflict (with him).
R: ...that stopped him.
R: (I said) I will remain as I am (while) you say there is no sorcery.
R: What is sorcery? Sorry (for interrupting).
F: Yes, tell me.
R: [overlapping] Sorcery – sorcery is not an idea, some kind of trick. I am from here and I am going to talk to
you about it openly.
R: It's not an idea. It is the black person [pauses] – though, come to think of it, sorcery is not limited to
F: Even among us, there are people...
R: ...who have it. Whites have sorcery.
F: Yes, and they know about it.
R: When (a person) has...
F: ...but one must...
R: ...when a person has his magic.
R: Sorry, that is what I am trying to discuss.
A person has his magic. (Perhaps) he went to call on a woman who (is involved in) magic, right? Among you Whites,
are there not some women, or some men who have wives who are women (involved in) magic?
R: That is sorcery.
F: That is sorcery.
R: There you are. Now, for a black person, as far as I am concerned, sorcery is not something you know about when
you a born.
R: [pauses] (And) you may die not knowing about it. What do I know, it was prayer that made me aware of sorcery.
R: My husband is here (is a witness). I see a person who comes into the house saying, I am in trouble with
sorcery. [pauses] In sorcery there is an impure spirit. You question her and she tells you, it comes from a certain
person there, it is there, it is...
N: Who was (talking to you)?
R: (The name is) Batelette.
R: I did this and that.
R: When you asked her about it in detail - (for instance) how have you been eating? – she would tell you tell you
(I have been eating) well. Then she said [pauses] while I am sitting in a house with a ceiling like this one a black
person may get out (through it) and disappear completely, at night.
R: He can disappear, (you don't know) where he is, right?
N: He may get out by a window.
R: Through a small hole.
N: Like this.
R: Through what? Ah...
N: ... while the house is locked.
R: ...he gets inside...
F: Like small creature (lit. person).
R: Like a bird, yes.
R: He transforms himself into a small bird.
N: That's how.
R: There you are, yes.
N: (Or) like a small mouse.
R: Yes, (and) he gets out. They explained this to me in...
F: Perhaps this happened in a dream?
R: No, rarely in a dream, (it happens) before your very eyes.
R: He disappears. It is said that they go to a feast.
R: That's what is told (about them). When I talk to the person (who comes to see me) I say, let's pray, I
don't see myself getting caught by sorcery.
R: We pray to God, that's all. Now, about sorcery as such, this is how it works. For example, I see my
children, my own children, when I really pray to God.
R: Sorcery – this is how black people get each other into sorcery. A person eats (something) and catches sorcery.
R: Now, I observe this on my children. Could my children be afflicted by sorcery?
R: (But) if you pray to God, they will not be overcome
by sorcery. Is it not impure spirits that spread
(sorcery)? In that sense your ideas were correct when you
said that sorcery does not exist. It does not exist for the
one who does not submit to it. It does not exist.
Should he come upon (things) like magic charms he just throws them
away. And, with prayers, [claps] he will be fine.
F: So, when people fall (into trance) this is a sign of...
R: [overlapping] ...of evil
F: Of evil.
F: And when they start talking [pauses] talking, as they sometimes do, in the voice of someone else.
R: Ooh, all that is bad. Nothing but the devil is behind that.
R: It's bad. Where someone falls (in trance) and begins to talk the devil is going to play tricks (The one in
trance says) I am Kaseka, I am so-and-so – that is just the devil, right?
28. F: tena: tena: aah: [pauses] kadiri ya kazi yako:
F: sawa: mais: kuponyesha vile vile/ donc/ sasa: sawa ule uli: ulifundisha ile siku nilisikia: sema: bon:
tutaponyesha kwa s: kusali: mais: ça veut pas dire: kama una: unakatala...
R: [overlapping] ...katala pona/
F: ma: ma: ma...
F: madocteurs: mamédicines: ao...
R: voilà heeeh/
F: si vile ulisema?
F: mais: [pauses] hii unganga ya: ya zamani: bale: tuko na banganga ya kuachana/ tuko na sawa balozi: ba:
F: banani ba...
R: eheh: bamif...
F: na tena kuko: eh...?...
R: [overlapping] na ba banganga ba zamani...
F: ...banganga ya miti/
F: ile mubaya: ni baya vile vile?
R: haina mubaya/
F: ile ...?...
R: [overlapping] kama minayua asema: muti fulani kama inakunywa:
N: iko lawa ya guérison/
N: pour guérir quelqu'un...?...
R: eheh: voilà/
N: mi nitaweza kwenda kwa médicin...?...
F: hii hamutukala?
R: eh eh/
N: hii hapana...?...
R: shee: kama: tumbo inauma/
R: minakunywa muti fulani: tumbo inaisha/
R: iko muzuri: ni muti Mungu analeta nguvu: anakunywa: binaisha: kunaisha/
28. F: What else? Yes. [pauses] Part of your work...
F: ..., however, is also healing. For instance, the other day when I listened to you teaching you said we shall
heal by praying. But that does not mean that you are against...
R: [overlapping] ...(that I am) opposed curing.
F: Things like ...
F: ...(seeing) physicians, medication, or...
R: There you are, that's right.
F: Didn't you say so?
F: But [pauses] (what about) traditional healing – (there) we have different kinds of healers. We have those who
operate like sorcerers.
F: Who else, there are...
R: Yes, and (the ones that are called)
F: And then there are
R: [overlapping] And tradition healers...
F: ...(called) herbalists.
F: Is that also something bad?
R: It is not bad.
R: [overlapping] If I know that, when you drink a certain herbal potion...
N: ...it is a medicine that heals.
N: Something to heal a person.
R: Yes, that's right.
N: I could (also) go to a medical doctor.
F: (So) this is something you are not against?
N: No, not this.
R: We – when I have a belly ache.
R: I drink a certain herbal potion and the belly ache is gone.
R: That is good, it is God who gives the herb its strength. A person drinks (the potion) and the trouble is gone.
29. F: tena: tena: ulizo moya ya nguvu/
F: niliwaza mbele/
F: si uli: uliniambia kiloko kiloko juu ya: biashara yako/ ulisema: ulipata: ulipata: nani: mapertes/
F: nilikuwa kuwaza: ts: lakini ule mama batasema: yee anaona tu bintu/ ya mbele/ sababu ya nini?
R: hauwezi kuona paka byote/ hauna Mungu/ voilà/
R: anaweza kuona byote/
R: niko napata maladi sawa muntu wote:
R: napasha kuwa faible/ alakini: utawezi kuona mu namna ingine: unafanya roho ya bumuntu:
R: unasema paka nigagner: utapoteza/ eheh/ sina mu: sina: Mungu/ mm/
F: paka vile/
R: unasikia Nestor?
N: oui oui/ yee ataweza kusema asema...?...
R: eeh: minaonaka/
N: na comment ataona asema sitaenda kule ku...?...
R: hapana/ si njo/
R: minamuonyesha: minamuonyesha juu ya: mambo ya indépendance: vile nilipita na tutoto vile tulionaka: ile: ni
jibu ya kule ku mukongo: mm: avant indépendance na: mambo ya mu cinquante-cinq/
R: ni ile alifula papa: tout ça/
R: eheh/ mambo: ile: [pauses] nitaweza kuona/ hatuwezi kuwa akili pamoya na Mungu/
R: ona ingine atafuchika/
R: basi kutakuwa kuna vumbula bitu huku ...?...ya dunia hii/ [pauses] ni ile Mungu anataka kukuonyesha:
F: ulipata déjà: [pauses] sawa: vision ao ndoto: ya: bintu bitakayokuja?
R: eheh/ bitafanyaka hivi: wee unafanya mu nguvu/ sawa hivi/ mi minajua bien asema: [pauses] kesho: sitaenda:
[pauses] mu Kenya: motokari itaweza kunikonga/ hamusema idée ya bule: mitaenda paka mu Kenya/
R: voilà/ [claps] eheh/
R: ...unapata kana/ njo hivi nilikalaka/
F: mais ile minauliza eh: aussi: ni: [pauses] ku avenir yake ya inchi: uliisha déjà kuona?
R: aah/ [laughs, claps]
F: shee bote: shee: shee bote tunajiuliza: tutaendelea namna gani/
N: aah: ile uko nauliza inakuya sema: uko namna moya na avenir...?...
N: ile: hata mi: minamuelezaka minasema: mu bitabu ya mingi tunasoma: tunaangaria ingine: banaisha banaandika
R: ...ni paka moya...
N: hain bien saine/
F: c'est ça
N: bon/ dieu yee moya anayua...?.../ kuko muntu ingine: sawa shee par example/ uko ndani ya nyumba: [pauses] kati
ya prières: nilikuwa na mutoto yangu moya garçon/
N: il travaille avec mois: il a: [pauses] un combi:
N: bon/ ule garçon depuis sa naissance: alikuwa toujours: malade/
N: bon/ habitude yetu huku: iko ya a vingt-et-une heures: tunafanya prières: familiales/
N: bon/ kati ya ile prières familiales: unasikia sauti: inatoka: ndani ya: Mama Régine: wakati ya prières
inasema: papa Nestor: hapana kuregretter juu ya mutoto eko maladi/ mutoto: atakuwa mukubwa/
N: sawa batoto bote/ et puis: atafanya kazi/
N: mais kama unangaria état ya mutoto: utasema vraiment: kesho: hatutafika kesho...
R: ...tuko ...?.../ [chuckles]
N: ah de: des années des années/ maintenant: ule mutoto yangu: eko na vingt ans/
F: na vingt ans/
N: eko na vingt ans/ minaanza kusouffrir na huyu mutoto: à l'âge de trois mois/
R: ...na badocteurs benyewe balikuwa sûrs asema iko naisha...
N: [overlapping] ...?... ça c'est vraiment: hii ni kitu ya nguvu sana/ bon/ mi nilifanya nini? nakamata:
espoir: ile inyee: nilipata mu prières ya kusema:
N: ne t'en fais pas/ même se tu vois que il est comme un va mourir tantôt: ne vous o: ne vous en occupez pas/
il va grandir/
N bon/ mina: hata nakuwa maladi minasema: je m'en fous/ il va toujours grandir/
N: effectivement: quand je vous parle maintenant: il a vingt ans/
F: vingt ans/
N: il est au boulot: il travaille: il travaille avec...
R: ...yee na shee kidoko/
N: bon/ uliona asema: iko: ilikuwa mu prières/ il ya déjà vingt ans/
R: mmh/ [chuckles]
N: yee: wakati ya prières anasema: mu esprit yake: wakati anasema asenma: non non/ huyu mutoto: atakomea/
N: ...?...ilikuwa sorte ya avenir/
R: pardon/ miye...
N: ...bon: ...?.... ya mutoto jusque ici: iko yee/
R: miye/ [pauses] na mi niko najiuliza vile muko najiuliza/ mwee unaniuliza/
R: kama hii bintu hata binanifikia niko nasema si mi: shee: surtout asema [pauses] juu ya nini minasema vile?
R: kiisha binafanyika/ haina sema niko na nguvu alors/ na mi niko nashangaa/ hata mamiracles:
R: hapa hau: kusikia miracle gani nafanya/ ka kinafanya ki ka ya mastaajabu/ minaangaria paka hivi/
R: juu mi siyue: [pauses] alakini minajua mu roho yangu asema ni kwa nguvu ya Mungu/ juu sina na dawa: sina na
R: sina hata na nini inye kuwekea ku roho/ sasa: ni nini? niliisha kufanya nguvu ya kusema: niache: mambo: ya
prières/ wapi/ minasikia: sawa kupasuka/ minasikia mubaya/ se: sema minatenda mambo makubwa/ sema non: au lieu ya
kuacha prières: inafaa ni siku yako/
N: ni siku yako/
R: voilà/ miye minapenda kusadi/ sasa niko [claps] natumizia: jusque hapa sasa/
R: bantu beko naniuliza: kwa kuona vile biko natendeka/ bantu...
F: ...sawa vile kulaguisha/
R: hana: paka weye/
R: kuko bantu beko nakuwa kuniuliza: ba namna ya kuachana/ mwengine atakuya: fanya hivi/ ingia mu prière ya kuya
tu hivi na hivi/
R: kumbe sijue/ hii mambo pale nilipata: na hivi niko na wee hapa/ mi sijue ya kama: [pauses] niko na: niko na
[pauses]: niko nafanya nini: mu dunia: minayua asema niko nasadi/
R: kama niko nasadi niko nafanya makazi yangu/ sasa kama niko nafanya makazi yangu: niko muntu sawa bantu bote/
napasha kupata maladi: napasha kufa: napasha kufanya bintu byote/
R: juu minajua ya kama: [pauses] nilitoka kwa Mungu na:
nitakufa kurudia kwake/ sina na: kintu/ kintu ingine ya
kueleza sema hivi/ pengine unaniona kuwa maladi: unasema: eh
kichwa: asema eheh: Mama Régine iko maladi/ manabashangaa/
niko muntu sawa bo/ kile kinanitokako: kile minajua bien: ni
nani: boka/ unasikia bien Monsieur? boka/
R: avant nilikuwa: boka: vile muntu anaikalaka/ ana: anashituka mambo hivi/ non: sishitukake/ ile hapana/
R: kama minaona kintu kinene: napasha kuikala kimya: mu roho: na bupole bote: kunaisha/
R: na: na: naisha kuambia/
R: [sighs] mmh/
29. F: Then, then I have a difficult question.
F: I gave it some thought first.
F: You talked to me a little about your business. You said that you had made losses.
F: I was thinking, well, people might say (how can it happen) to this mama? She sees things before they happen.
R: You cannot foresee everything, you aren't God. That's it.
F: That's it.
R: He can see everything.
R: I get sick like everyone else.
R: Necessarily, I am weak. However, you can have a different view of this. (If) you keep to what is human.
R: And say I'm going overcome it (lit. to win) you'll be lost. Yes. I'm not God. Mm.
F: That's right.
R: Do you understand, Nestor?
N: Yes, yes. She can tell ...?...about a place.
R: Yes, I keep seeing (things).
N: Also how she may see (something) beforehand and say I am not going there.
R: No. Wasn't that ...
R: ...what I showed him. I made him see things that happened with Independence. How I made it through with my
small children and how we saw in '55, before Independence (came), things that were confirmed later, mm.
R: The ones where my father was involved, all that.
R: Yes. Those things [pauses] I would be able to foresee. We cannot have the insight that God has.
R: (Or) see other (things) He keeps hidden.
R: In the end, we will not find out what happens here in this world. God reveals to you what He wants to reveal.
F: Did you ever have [pauses] a vision or dream of things that will happen in the future?
R: Yes. You act on the strength of what is going to be done. Like, for instance, I know well [pauses] tomorrow I
am not going [pauses] to Kenya (township). A car may hit me. You don't say this is a silly notion, I just go to
R: There you are. [claps] Yes.
N: (If) you go...
R: ...it is going to happen to you. That is why I stay (at home).
F: But what I am also asking is [pauses] – have you seen into the future of the country?
R: Aaah. [laughs, claps]
F: We all, all of us, we ask ourselves how we should move on.
N: Ah, what you are asking comes to the same as the (question) about the future...?..
N: About that I keep telling her, in many books, and then some, we read it is written, the future...
R: ... is just one...
N: ...is not really rosy.
F: That's it.
N: Alright. God alone knows...?... There is someone, take us, for example – you are in the house [pauses] during
prayers. I had one of my children with me, a boy.
N: He works with me, he has [pauses] a combi van.
N: Alright. Since he was born, this boy was always sick.
N: Alright. Our habit here is that, at nine o'clock in the evening, we have our family prayers
N: Alright. (One day) during those family prayers, you heard a voice coming from inside Mama Régine. During
prayers it said, papa Nestor, don't trouble yourself on account of the child being sick. The child will grow up.
N: Like all children. And then he will work.
N: But when you looked at the state the child was in you would say we are not going to make to the next day.
R: And here we are. [chuckles]
N: Well, this went on for years and years. Now this child of mine is twenty years old.
F: Twenty years.
N: He is twenty. I began to suffer with this child when he was three months old.
F: I see.
R: ... and the doctors themselves were certain that it was the end...
N: [overlapping] ...this is truly a very difficult thing. Alright, what did I do? I took hope, hope which I got
during prayers, telling myself...
N: ...don't be upset. Even if he looks to you like someone who is going to die soon. You should leave it
alone, he will grow up.
N: Alright. (Then I told myself) he may be sick but I don't care, he is going to grow up anyhow.
N: Indeed, as I am speaking to you now, he is twenty years old.
F: Twenty years.
N: He is on the job, he works with...
R: ...he is with us now and then.
N: Alright. As you saw it happened during prayers twenty years ago already.
R: Mm. [chuckles]
N: She spoke during prayer, through the spirit she had (inside her) at that time, she said no, no, this child is
going to grow up.
F: [overlapping] Grow up.
N: It was like (seeing) the future.
R: Sorry, as far as I am concerned...
N: ...alright, so far, ...?... the child has been here (with us).
R: As far as I am concerned, [pauses] I also ask myself, as you ask yourselves. You are asking me.
R: When these things happen to me I say it isn't me. Most of all, [pauses] (you ask) why do I say something
R: And then it happens. That is not say that I have (some) power. Even I am astonished. It's like miracles.
R: When you're there you don't understand what kind of miracle I work. It just happens as something you
are surprised by. That's how I see it.
R: Because I don't know. [pauses] But inside my soul I do know that it is God's power because I don't
have any charms or anything else.
R: Nor do I have anything that was put in my soul. So,
what is it? I did make an effort to stop being involved in
prayers. No way. I felt as if I was going to pieces. I felt
bad. Then I said I am going to do great things. No, instead
of abandoning prayers, it must be your day.
F: It must be?
R: It is your day.
R: There you are. I love to pray. I have been [claps] working at it up to now.
R: People ask me (about it) when the see what I accomplish. People...
F: ...(it is) like divining.
R: No, come on.
R: There are people who keep questioning me in different ways. Someone may come with the request that I should
get into prayer to find out this or that.
R: So, I don't know. When I got involved in these things back then and right now as I am (talking) with you,
I (still) don't know [pauses] what it is [pauses] I am doing in the world. I know that I pray.
R: When I pray I (also) keep doing my chores. Now, when I do my chores I am like everyone else. I am bound to get
sick, I am bound to die, I am bound to experience all those things.
R: Because I know that [pauses] I came from God and I
die to return to Him. I have nothing special that I can
explain in so many words. Perhaps you see me (as someone who
is) sick in her head. You may say what is this, Mama
Régine is sick. I may amaze people but I am a human being
like they are. The thing that comes to me, something I really
know is – how shall I say – fear. You hear this, Monsieur?
R: I used to be...
 Fear. Unlike someone who may be alarmed by a situation. No, I
am not alarmed, not that.
R: When I see something big I am bound to stay quiet in my soul and be very gentle. That's all.
R: And – I talked about that.
R: [sighs] Mm.
30. R: ka: hakuna plateau?
N: njo plateau yee...
R: ...yee moya/ [chuckles,] sounds of drinks being served]
F: très bien mama/ tuna: tunachoka/ kwa kusema...
R: ...kamambo ya Mungu: yee juu unasumbulia/
F: [overlapping] ...?...
R: kama ni mambo ya bule: kama niliisha kuacha minakwenda kulala/
N: oui oui/
R: kama ni mambo ya Mungu: hata asubui/ kama uko nauliza ni: na idée ya bien: tuko nasumbulia/ hakuna mambo/
merci kwanza ya cadeau yako/ [chuckles]
F: ...?...kale cadeau/
R: eeeh: hii ya chocolat/
N: ...?...merci beaucoup/ merci/
F: [overlapping] ya kuonyesha butamu minasikia/
R and F: [laugh]
R: eeeh: bon/ sasa niko nakuuliza/
F: bon/ eh: kunywa mbele kiloko:
N: [sound of a glass being served] ?voici/
30. R: What is this, is there no tray?
N: Here it is.
N: This is the tray ...
R: ...the only one (we have). [chuckles, sounds of drinks being served]
F: Very good, mama. We are tired from talking...
R: ...a little about God. He is the one you talk about.
F: [overlapping] ...?...
R: Had (our conversation) been about meaningless matters I would have left and gone to sleep.
N: Yes, yes.
R: Since it is about matters of God, (I can go on) until morning. When what you ask makes sense we talk, no
problem. But first, thanks for your present. [chuckles]
F: That small present.
R: Eh, this is chocolate.
N: Tanks a lot. Thank you.
F: [overlapping] It is to show the sweet feelings I have.
R: Well, alright. Now I am going to ask you.
F: Fine, (but) first I take a sip.
N: [sound of a glass being served] Here it is.
F: Thank you.
31. R: niko nakuelezea na miye/ pardon: [pauses] wee unaona nje: si uko Catholique?
R: ah: hata uko: si minakuuliza/ wee uka...
F: ...tulikuwa kusumbulia na mutoto yako ya: ule ...?...statistique/
F: aliuliza vile vile/
R: eeh: ulimujibu nje?
F: [pauses] ts: tuliangariana: ali: ali: aliniuliza uko Catholique/
F: asema: minasema mm: ts/ na yee ule ulizo: alisema: mm/ [claps, laughs] alisikia/ [chuckles] tuko tunatafuta:
R: wee unatafuta Mungu? [chuckles] ni njo alisikia ile fasi?
R: voilà: na miye: kama vile unaniuliza: si nilikujibu hapa tu?
F: ulize tu/ ulize tu/ donc:
F: ulizo ya mwanzo ilikuwa: niko Catholique/
R: eh muCatholique/ sasa: mu ?kuona kwako: ulikuwa prêtre/
F: nilikuwa: nilikuwa ...?..../
R: ni: ulikuwa Catholique/
F: nilijikaza sana:
F: sana: nilifanya masomo: six ans de seminaire: yote yote:
F: mathéologie: mabible: yote nilifanya/
F: minaisha kufanya/
R: mm/ kiisha unafanya byote/ sasa: [pauses] unaona nje/ mambo ya Mungu: iko naenda nje/ uko kat: uko kat:
ulikuwa katolika: uko mu dunia/
R: unaona nje/ ...?...ya bado kufa: tungali bazima/
R: unaona nje/ pale vile uko nasema njo vile na mi niko nasema/ ile unafanya mm: nilikuya na mi vile mi niko
nasema vile/ naisha kuelezea vile/ [pauses] kama bananiita maréunions haina juu ya kusema: mi: ku réunion ya: yasiyo
catholique ?wale nini/ nilikwenda kusikia/ minarudia kumbe minalala/
F: c'est vrai/
F: c'est comme ça/
F: aah: ile mambo mama: eko nguvu/ [pause]
F: uliza tu/ uliza tu/ [pause]
R: mm hee: [laughs] ...?...tena nitakuuliza tena nini?
N: wee uliza tu asema pale uliisha yote/
R: uliisha yote? si njo: pardon: unaisha yote?
N: ...?ulitafuta kuwa prêtre ao kuingia?
R: aliingia/ aliingia/
N: bon: kiisha pale uliingia: ulitoka ou bien ungali?
N: juu ya nini?
F: njo ulizo/ [laughs]
R: njo ile minatafuta kuuliza/
F: [takes a deep breath] ya: ya kwanza: [pauses] mi sikuwaza mingi mingi hapana/
F: ilikuwa sawa: kukomea/ [pauses] ilikuwa: niliwaza sawa: sasa nilidépasser/ [pauses] niko na kazi yangu: kazi
yangu ya uprofesseur: nitajikaza sana sana ya kufanya ile kazi: itakuwa bien/
F: mais/ nafaa niseme vile vile wazi: [pauses] niliona ku: ku église: hata ku ...?...mamissions: ilikuwa: niliona
bintu: ts: [pauses] sinakuwa d'accord/
R: unaona? mm/
F: ni kusema: niliona: mais: [pauses] nilijikaza mais: sina na nguvu ya: kuwa répresentant...
R: [overlapping] kuweza...
F: ...ya hii/
R: ya ile/
N: ya église/
R: ...eh eh/
F: ...tena ku....
R: ...ya ile bintu?
F: oui ya ile bintu/
R: mm voilà/
F: kutembea sawa na bukubwa yangu: mi niko saserdos: mweye paka bakristiani...
F: mi niseme wee musikie tu...
R: mm ah ah ah/
F: ile: nilikatala/
N: njo ile...
F: ...sikuwa: juu ya: juu ya ndoa ao bibi: non/
F: mbele minatoka: [pauses] mi minaongojea tena: kiisha...
F: ...nilifanya ndoa/ ilikuwa: non non/ kwa mi non/ i: ilikuwa tu vraiment: mu kipande moya: kukatala hii mambo:
tena mambo ya ya ya: argent: na: yote yote...?...
R: wa: tiens tiens/
31. R: I'll explain what I mean. Sorry [pauses]. How do you see this? Aren't you a Catholic?
R: Even though you have – I am asking you, right? -- you were...
F: ...we were talking (about this) with your son, the one who studies statistics.
F: He had the same question.
R: So, did you give him an answer?
F: [pauses] Well, we looked at each other, he asked me are you a Catholic?
F: I said mm, well. And he said to same question mm, well. [claps, laughs] He understood. [chuckles] We are
R: You are searching for God? [chuckles] Is that what you understood there (when you were questioning each
R: There you are. And did I not answer you promptly when you questioned me?
F: Ask, go ahead ask. So...
F: ...your first question was am I a Catholic.
R: Yes, a Catholic. Now, how do you see (the fact) that you were a priest.
F: I was, I was (a Catholic).
R: [overlapping] You were a Catholic.
F: I worked at it very hard.
F: Very hard. I studied, six years of seminary, (and did) all of it.
R: There you are.
F: ...theology, bible studies, I did it all.
F: I've done it.
R: Mm. In the end you did everything. Now, [pauses] you see farther. The matters of God go farther. You are cath-, you are cath-, you used to be catholic, [still] you are in the world.
R: You see farther. We haven't died, we are still alive.
R: You see farther. The way you spoke (earlier) is the same as I speak. The "mm" you made – that's
what I would say, too. I already told you. When they call me to meetings it doesn't matter if the meeting is not
catholic or whatever. I went there to listen. I come home and sleep.
F: That's true.
F: That's how it is.
F: Aah, those are difficult matters, mama. [pause]
F: Just ask. Just ask. [pause]
R: Mm. [laughs] What else am I going to ask you?
N: You asked did you complete everything (all the studies) at the time?
R: Did you complete everything? Isn't that, sorry, you completed everything, right?
N: (Was it about) becoming a priest or to enter?
R: He entered. He entered.
N: Alright, then, after you had entered,
 did you leave or stay?
F: I left.
F: That is the question. [laughs]
R: The one I am trying to ask.
F: [takes a deep breath] To begin with, [pauses] I didn't give it a lot of thought.
F: It was like growing up. [pauses] Then I thought now I left this behind. [pauses] I have my work, my work as a
professor. I am going to put a lot of effort into this work. It's going to be alright.
F: But. I must speak openly. [pauses] In the church and in the missions I have seen things which, ts, [pauses] I
could not accept.
R: You see? Mm.
F: That is to say, I saw (those things) but [pauses] despite the effort I made I didn't have the strength to
be a representative...
R: [overlapping] ...to be able to...
F: ... of this.
R: Of this.
N: Of the church.
R: ... no no/
N: ...of those things?
F: Yes, of those things.
R: Mm. There you are.
F: Going around and flaunting my power, I am a priest you are just Christians.
R: Lowly people.
F: I should be the one who talks, you just listen...
R: Mm. Ah, ah, ah.
F: That I rejected.
N: That's what it was...
F: ...it had nothing to do with marriage or (taking) a wife, no.
R: I see.
F: First I left, [pauses] then I waited a while, finally...
R: You married.
F: ...I got married. It was – no no, not for me (to leave in order to get married). Truly, it was in part about
rejecting those things (I mentioned) but also all sorts of things, matters of money and all that.
R: You don't say.
32. R: je sais/ njo pale minakuelezea asema: pale bantu beko unaona na ...?...banasema ni catholiques/
R: [chuckles] alakini: [pauses] minaangaria na macho tu/
R: [claps] mm/ minamuambiaka siku ingine/
F: c'est ça/
R: kama unaikala paka minasema: ts: baache kuniuzi/ [claps] baache kuniuzi/ ikoako tu: njo kusadi Mungu:
F: c'est vrai/
R: minasemaka vile/ sasa: [pauses] unaona? hii ...?...tunauliza hakuwe usadi na hivi na hivi/
na hapa sasa mambo ya karisma/ banatuelezea asema: hii ni kazimatek/ mimi siyua jina ya kazi: matek sijua kintu/
R: hapa sasa: banakatala asema: shee tusiwekee bantu mikono hivi:
R: tusisale benye kufungula mikono:
R: tutafunga: mikono/ sauti ya sas: ya ba: catholiques/ [pauses] balisema: mweye hamuna na uwezo wa kujua
kusaidia watu/ mbele balisema mufunga: masala:
R: minasema: hakuna muntu alinipa sala juu ya mi kusala:
R: hakuna muntu ali: mupa: kazi: hakuna ananilipa: nyumba niko nafansia kazi ni yangu: beko banaharibisha nyumba
yangu/ miye/ kale haiangaria muntu/ minasema hivi/ mbele yabo/ prêtre moya alikuya hapa c'est: [to Nestor] Père
Paul eh? anakuya hapa: ananikutanisha hivi anakuya/
N: ...?... kuwa pamoya mu Katuba/
R: eh/ ah: ule alikuwa naye: muku/
F: ule: ule: oui mais: minafahamu/
R: anakuwa naye:
N: alikuwa na Paul ya huku/
R: na na: na nani?
R: ni nani?
N: alikuwa na ma: alikuwa na ma: ...?...maparoisses nani...
R: na: ba: coordinateurs/ kama anafika [pauses] minamuelezea asema: uko nasadi: uko naaccompagner na bantu ba
namna ingine/ macho yako haibaone/
R: wee unakuwa kunielezea asema: twanga magoti nikubarikie nitoshe shetani: unamuona shetani niko nayo? ni wee ni
uko na shetani/ minamusema paka hivi/ [chuckles] mi sina na shetani/ [chuckles]
F: na yee anajibu nini?
R: eeh anaikala kimya/ sema mama mi sikuya kukuchokoza/ minakuya: nikubarikie nitoshe vivintu: njo minakutanisha
bantu: ba mu paroisse ya gumo inasema: mina: minasema: nilibaita? sikubaita/
32 R: I know. That is what I explained to you. The people you saw at that time said that they were Catholics.
R: [chuckles] But [pauses] I use my eyes.
R: [claps] Mm. I was talking about this the other day.
R: When you were sitting here. I just said ts, they should stop getting on my nerves.[claps] They should stop
getting on my nerves. The only thing there is is praying to God. That's it.
F: That's true.
R: That's what I kept saying. Now [pauses] you see? We are asking you whether you don't pray and things
like that. And right now this thing about charisma. They tell us this is matic work.
 I don't even know even the name matic work, I don't
know anything about it. I began with praying.
R: Right now they are against us holding our arms like this.
R: We should not pray with our arms spread open.
R: We should keep the hands together. (In) the ways (lit. the voice) of Catholics. [pauses] They said you
don't have the authority (lit. the power to know) to help people. First, they said, close the prayer meetings.
R: I said there is no human being who made me the gift of prayer so that I would pray.
R: No one hired me, no one pays me, the house in which I work is mine. They are out to destroy my home. What I do
is nobody's business. That's what I told them to their face. A certain priest came here. That was [to Nestor]
Father Paul, right? He came here and made me meet with him.
N: He had come with another one who lives in Katuba township.
R: Yes. That's where he lives, the one he had with him.
F: That one. That one, yes, I know him.
F: He was with him.
N: He was with (Father) Paul from here.
R: And also what's his name?
R: Who was he?
F: A Canadian.
N: He had parishes together with...
R: And (they were) coordinators.
 When he came [pauses] I told him, you pray, you accompany
people of a different kind. You have no regard for who they are.
R: You are telling me get on your knees so I can bless you and drive out the devil inside you. Do you see the
devil I have inside me? It's you who has the devil inside. That's what I told him. [chuckles] I don't have
a devil inside me. [chuckles].
F: And what did he answer?
R: Well, he just sat there and said nothing. Then he said mama I did not come to annoy you. I came to bless you
and to get rid of all those things.
 That is why I have meetings with people of the parish who, it
is said, have problems. I said did I tell them to come? I didn't call for them.
33. R: mi nikala kwangu: bantu banakuya/ banasema
tunatafuta sauti/ tuombe/ nibafukuze? balikuya huku/ kunaisha/
sasa na hapa sasa: minaona: [pauses] kuuzi kama kunapita:
kutaweza ku: beko nasema: beko nasemasema/ ts: beko nafanyaka
kazi ya ile charismatique juu ya biashara yako: hivi na
R: mitajiuliza/ eh: minasema: eh: biashara gani?
F: ya biashara gani: oui/
R: hmm/ niko nafanya kazi...
F: ...bamingi banasema/ kama: kama: minasikia masauti ya: pale: inje: sawa baintellectuels ba:
F: ba: nani: sema aah hii mambo ya k: ya: ya...
R: ...bakasema tu...
F: kanisa: ya madini: ni paka: ni: ni biashara/ ni vile banasema/ bamingi banasema/
N: [overlapping] njo vile beko banasema/ bon...
F: tena: mina...
R: mitaweza kufanyika/ ku: mafasi ingine/
F: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
R: mi niko fanyaka mafasi ingine/ [pauses] yaah/
N: ...shee tangu...
N: ...shee kuwaza: prière huku:
N: hakuna ile kintu banafanyaka asema: iko sadaka: des histoires comme ça/
F: non: paka...
R: ...paka baprêtres hapa sasa njo bantuobliger: ya kusema mulete: sadaka kule ku réunions: kila: mwenzi:
N: kila groupe eh/
R: s: kile groupe/
R: [overlapping] mi: eheh/
R: niliisha kusikia bien/
N: yee hapana...?...
R: [overlapping] minabaelezea asema: sasa bataleta sadaka: nitaanza nje? sema muko baogligés/ minasema non/ sasa:
kama [claps] banaleta makuta: hapa sasa: tuko obligés ya kuleta mille Zaire/ eh? mille Zaire: juu yaaa: diocèse:
R: minasema: non/
R: miye: pardon:
R: miye: eh: minakuuliza asema: miye ni unaschangaa/
R: niko nafanya kazi ya Mungu:
R: kazi munene/ ya kuweza kupata hata kintu/ sasa sipate: minasema batanilipa kuko mwenyee niko natumikia/ sasa
mweye nianze ku mu changachanga makuta niko na: namiletee/
R: njo uko nasikia asema: yee iko na matata/ paka hapa sasa: nilipima kuelezea watoto: minasema: mweye: kama muko
na huruma: mukanda yo hii/
R: muchanga makuta/ mille Zaire: mupa nduku yenu: hapana mi/ eh? mupa nduku yenu/ kama [claps] inaenea mille:
tulete na ba: ba: banaskofu / vile bo banataka/
R: bo benyewe beko nashangaa: juu ya kuona vile/
R: kama banapenda fête: batasema ma: [claps] leo siku ya
furahi: tunatafuta kunywa chai: fanya hivi: bo benyewe
banafanya bintu yabo banakula/ inaba...?.../ sasa niko
najiuliza: hapa sasa: iko mambo ya [pauses] ile itaweza kuleta:
ts: ku baartistes na bantu inyee kazi/ njo: shiye:
obligatoire cinquante Zaire chaque réunion/
R: unakuwa na cinquante tunaleta/ mu: mu de: mu diocèse maréunions yote/
33. R: I stay at home and people come. They say we come
for guidance (lit. we are searching for the voice). Let us
pray. Should I chase them away? They came to this place.
That's all. Now, right now, what I see is something that
[pauses] that really bothers me – all that talk saying
Charismatics do this work because you make a business of it,
things like that.
R: Asking myself, all I can say is what kind of business?
F: What kind of business, yes.
R: Mm. I do work...
F: Many say this. When I hear voices on that from the outside, educated people, for instance...
F: They say aah, those things with the ...
R: ...let them talk...
F: ... churches and religions are nothing but business. That's how they talk. Many say this.
N: [overlapping] That's how they talk. Alright...
F: Also, I...
R: I can do (business) in other places.
F: Yes, yes.
R: I am doing (business) in other places. [pauses] Oh well.
N: You see.
R: ...?...you think...
N: As far as we are concerned...
N: ...ever since we thought about prayers here. F: Mm.
N: There has been nothing of the kind they do, like (asking for) an offering, things like that.
F: No, just that...
R: ...just that the priests here oblige us (to do this) saying bring an offering there in the meetings (you have)
N: Each group, yes.
R: Each group.
N: It was...?...
R: [overlapping] I – yes (that's what they asked for).
R: I listened carefully.
N: She is not ...?....
R: [overlapping] I told them people should bring offerings, should I do this? The answer was, you are obliged to
do this. No, I said. As it is now, when [claps] people bring money, we are obliged to donate one thousand Zaire. You
get this? One thousand Zaire for the diocese.
R: I said no.
R: I – sorry.
R: I ask you, I said, you amaze me.
R: I do God's work.
R: (I do) a big job without expecting to get anything for it and I don't get anything. I tell myself I will
be paid by the one I work for. Now you want me to start collecting money so I can bring it to you.
R: When you hear (me saying that) you can tell yourself she is in trouble. Just now I tried to explain this to
the young people. I said if you feel compassion here is how to go about it.
R: You collect money, say, thousand Zaire, and give it to your brothers and sisters, not to me. You understand?
Give it to your brothers and sisters. When [claps] there is enough for (another) thousand let's give it to the
bishop's people, which is what they want.
R: They will be surprised when they see this.
R: If people would like to have a celebration they may
say [claps] today is a day of joy, we want to drink tea,
whatever. They will do what they (need to) to do so that
they can eat. ...?... Now I ask myself, right now, regarding
this matter (of a feast) [pauses] whether this (money) could
not be given to the artists and people who do a job. As
far as we are concerned, fifty Zaire are obligatory at every
R: You bring along fifty (Zaire) to every meeting in the diocese.
34. minauliza sema: hii franga: sasa hapa balisema: kama ni ya ku: [pauses] kulipia charismatique moya muzungu iko
natoka ku France: eh?
R: eeeh: tutamulipia tueneza vingt mille Zaire/ minasema non/
N: juu ya kulipa...?...
R: [overlapping] ...bale bacapitalistes/ shee...
R: shee di: shee eh: shee tuko ba: Tiers Monde/
F: oui/ oui/
R: eeh/ sasa: shee tuko na franga ya kulipa vingt mille
Zaire? pale ya kulya mi bado kuiweza/ haba bantu banakuya
humu: [pauses] kama unaona vraiment, monsieur: utaweza
kushangaa/ kuko bengine: eko ...?...kuweza wee hapana kula
chakula/ hana naye/ pengine eko anakuya kuniomba asema Mama
Régine uniaider/ si vile? banakuwa kuomba siku zote: eh/
N: [overlapping] ...?...
R: wee saa ingine hatuweze kutaachia tutoto twa hivi iko kwangu: mi sina na batoto/
R: minaleta chakula/ kwenda: munaona bazee banakuya: leta/ kama niko nayo: minaleta/ sasa: utaomba bale bantu
makuta? tiens/ eh?
F: sasa banafika hapa: na humu: banasema mu français? banas: ba: ba: banafanya nini? bale ba: ba: bafrançais?
N: bale ...?...bacharismatiques ya kwa ba kulipa/
R: eh eh: hauyabaone?
N: mais: mais: belikuya...
R: ba: ehm: bekoako/
N: ba: baBelges?
R: bekoako babi: batoto: kijana: banasema: hii muko nafanya ya bule: inapendeza tumionyeshe ya vérité/ sasa
R: tangu balifika: njo [claps] tuko naongolea vérité/
R: ah mi minaongoya: kuona ya vérité/
F: ku mukusanyiko là ya...
R: eh ku mukusanyujko/ kuanza kufundisha bantu asema: haba bacharismatika: beko nalanda/
F: beko ...?...?
R: eh [claps] shiye/ ...?... shiye bazamani/ tuko nalanda/ bantu: balikuwa beko nasadi [claps] na roho moya/ siku
bale beko naenda naenda: habaone kintu/ bananza sasa tena ku: kurudia nyuma/
F: oui oui/
R: nasema: eh eh: ni nje? beko nafanya: [pauses] juu ya kuona: eh: shiye batuelezee vérité/ hivi tuko nafanya
F: vérité yabo/
R: eeh yabo/ ya Mungu: hii ya Mu:
R: hii yo: ni ya bule: beko batuonyesha:
R: vérité ya Mungu/ mamessages....
F: banaume ao banamuke?
R: kuwa banaume na banamuke: shi kukutana moya na banamuke: babijana: batoto kiloko: beko nafanya vile: beko
natuonyesha/ na shee tunaangaria macho: tunasema mm/ tuangarie/
R: [claps] message: ya kweli/ paka ile bo banaleta/ ya muntu mweushi/ [pauses, claps] doute/
R: [chuckles] niko pale:
F: [laughs] doute/
34. I had a question. Wasn't it said that this money is [pauses] to pay for a European charismatic coming from
R: Yes. We'll pay him up to twenty thousand Zaire. I said no.
N: Because, paying...
R: [overlapping] They are the capitalists, we...
R: We, yes, we are Third World people.
F: Yes, yes.
R: Right. Do we have the money to pay twenty thousand Zaire when I haven't been able to feed the people who
come to this house? [pauses] If you take a good look, Monsieur, you are going to be shocked. There are some who
haven't had any food for some time. They don't have any. Perhaps such a person may come and beg me, Mama Régine
help me. Right? They come begging every day, yes.
R: Some other time they may ask whether they could leave a baby at my house. I don't have (a home for)
R: I give them food. You see old people coming. Give (us something, they say). If I have it I give it. Now, are
you going to ask those people for money. Really. Right?
F: Now, those who visit here, do they speak French? What are they doing, those French people?
N: They are Charismatics, those who were paid.
F: Whom they paid.
R: Really, you haven't seen them yet?
N: But they came...
R: They – yes, they are around.
N: (You mean) those Belgians?
R: They are around, women, young girls who say what you are doing is no good, we should show you the truth.
 Now [chuckles]...
R: Ever since they arrived [claps] we have been waiting for the truth.
R: Ah, I am waiting to see the truth.
F: (That was) during a meeting there...
R: ... yes, in a meeting where they started teaching people saying those Charismatics, they are frauds.
F: "They" meaning who?
R: Well [claps] us. Us who had been here before. We were
cheating. (Until then) people had been praying [claps]
united in one and the same spirit. The day when those
(others) were gone they saw that there was nothing to it. So they
went back (to what they had been doing before).
R: You understand?
F: Yes, yes.
R: I told myself what is this? What they did, of all things, [pauses] they did it because they had observed (us
and came to the conclusion) that they should tell us the truth. What we were doing, is that worthless?
F: Their truth.
R: Yes, theirs, that is, God's.
R: All this was worthless, they were there to show us...
R: ...God's truth. (From) messages (they had).
F: Were those men or women?
R: There were men and women. One time we met with a young woman, a few of them were children. They put on a
performance, to show us (the truth) and we watched them. Mm, we said, let's see.
R: [claps] The true message, the one they brought to the black man. [pauses, claps] Doubt.
R: [chuckles] I was there.
F: [laughs] Doubt.
35. R: mm: unaona: aah: Monseigneur: [interrupting herself] ee: baa: ban: si kulikuwa bamingi/ si beko mule mu
bulaya unayua bien/ mm: kuko muntu meushi moya:
R: anasalaka/ [pauses] archéveque moya: [pauses] Monseigneur Malingo/
F: ya Mili: Milingo?
R: Milingi eh/
F: vile/ Milingo iko na kitabu ya: moya yake/
R: Milingo tuliisha kuonana naye avant/ pale alianza kuya humu/
F: ah oui?
F: mulionana naye?
R: niliisha kuonana naye dépuis/ soixante-neuf: eh: mu septante-neuf eh/ [to Nestor] eh?
F: alifi: alifikaka?
R: eeh/ mara tatu/ anasadi: mu cathédrale mule: bantu bageni banabakia: benye kuharibika na leo/ juu ya nini?
...?...habanawi/ kusema kunawa ni nini? habjisafishe: banakwenda kusali/
R: nili: minaulizaka hivi/ [pauses] kama: [pauses] banatafuta kufanya: unatafuta kutoka uelezea batoto yako
maneno: unaona batoto banatoka: hapa na mipanga: hapa na miti: utashimama?
R: eh? si utakimbia?
R: na beko banakuwaka kunipiga/ sasa: kama tuko natwe:
kuenda kusali Mungu: haifai tukuwe na madawa: na ma bintu
mingi mingi: bya bongo: bya kwenda kumu: elezea kwa pale
tuko babaya/ kama minafanyaka vile: bantu bataweza ku: esprit
impure iko mu mwili yabo itaweza kubaharibisha/ njo
F: kumbe Milingo: kama alifika hapa: ali: ali: alisali: alisema mu lugha gani? alisema mu kinywa gani?
R: ah: mu cha kwabo: mu anglais/
F: mu anglais?
R: mm/ asema kusali/
F: na balikuwa kugeuza?
R: hapana bantu...
F: ...kugeuza ya?
R: hapana/ mm/ habakuitike/ nani alianza kuitika? si paka hivi hivi hivi? hapa banaanza kuitika ni ku mwisho
F: ao kiBemba: haisemake?
R: ni kiBemba anajua bien/ eh: ki...
F: ki: ki: no: no:
R: kiNyanza: ah/
F: c'est ça/ kiNjanza: kiNyanja/
R: alio: ali: ombaka mara moya: eh: mu septante-neuf [talking to herself] alianza kuya hapa: se: eheh: [claps]
F: kumbe alifika hii nyumba/
R: ah ah: hakupita ku nyumba yangu/ ku nilimuona/ tulionana naye/ eheh/ sasa: tuko nasema:
R: hibi byote: tu bya: [interrupting herself] eh?
F: banafukuza sasa/
F: ben: ni namna ya kufukuza/ balimuita ku Roma:
F: ni: sawa vile balimufukuza: hapa ku Lusaka/
N: eheh/ hapa sasa anaikala wapi? huku Lusaka?
R: ku Rome/
N: Rome? ah iko ku Rome/
R: hata Lufuluabo/
N: Lufuluabo vile vile/
R: ah: pourqoi: pourquoi beko na: kama [pauses] banasadi vile: kama ni bamissionaires/ banabatuma directement ku
Roma: juu ya nini?
R: hata hii yote hii tuko nasema hapa: pardon: minasikia: vile inapita kusema/ iko ugomvi bo: bakufunga/
35. R: Mm. You see. Ah, (there is this) Monseigneur [interrupting herself] – there were lots of them, over there in
Europe, no? You know this quite well. Mm. There is one black person...
R: ...who is involved in prayer. [pauses] An Archbishop, [pauses] Monseigneur Malingo.
F: A Monseigneur?
F: By name of Milingo?
R: Milingi, yes.
F: That's right, Milingo wrote a book.
R: We met Milingo some time ago when he came here (to Lubumbashi).
F: Ah, yes?
F: You met him?
R: We saw each other, starting in '69, or rather in '79, yes. [to Nestor] Right?
F: He came several times?
R: Yes, three times. He prayed over there in the cathedral. Strangers were around then who are messed up to this
day. Why? ...?...they don't wash. What does that mean? They don't clean themselves and then they go and pray.
F: I see.
R: What I kept asking was this. [pauses] When [pauses]
when children are up to something you go outside and tell
your children (to stop it). Because, when you see children
appearing with machetes and sticks, are you going to stand
R: Aren't you going to run?
R: (Knowing) they'll beat me. Now, when we go and pray
to God we must not carry magic charms and all sorts of
fraudulent stuff that says that we are bad. If I keep doing
this people will (know) the impure spirit inside their body
may ruin them. That's that.
F: So, Milingo, when he came here (to Lubumbashi) and prayed what was the language he spoke.
R: Well, their language, English.
F: In English?
R: Mm, (that was what) he spoke when he prayed.
F: And was this translated?
R: There was no one...
F: ...to translate?
R: No. Mm. They didn't follow (him). Who would have followed him? (For them) it was just blah blah blah. It
was at the end (of his visit) here that people began to follow.
F: Or was it (through) Bemba, didn't he speak it?
R: Bemba he knew well, yes....
F: What was the language again? No (not Bemba).
R: Nyanza, yes.
F: That's it. Njanza, Nyanja.
R: On one occasion he prayed (in Nyanza?), in '79, [talking to herself] the first time he came here, yes,
[claps] that was in '79.
F: So, he came to this house.
R: No, no, he did not come to my house. It was when I saw him. Yes. Then, we said...
F: He was removed.
R: ...all this is just [interrupting herself] – what did you say?
F: Recently he was removed.
N: They removed him?
F: Well, it was a way of removing him, they summoned him to Rome.
F: That was the same as removing him from Lusaka.
N: I see. Where does he stay right now? Here in Lusaka?
R: In Rome.
N: Rome? Ah, he is in Rome.
R: Even Lufuluabo.
N: It was the same with Lufuluabo.
R: Ah, why? Why is it that, when [pauses] they pray and act as missionaries, they immediately send them to Rome?
R: Even everything we are discussing here – sorry, but the way it went I have a feeling that it was (the kind of)
confrontation they would terminate.
36. F: oui: oui/ [pauses] hmm hmm/ [pauses] bon/ [pauses] mbele nakupiga aksanti: mulinisaidia sana/ [pauses] kazi:
kusali ni ku: kutumika kazi: ni kusali vile vile/ si vile?
R: mm/ kazi: hivi unatumika/
R: si ulisikia mbele na mi nikuuliza/ sasa hibi byote hibi: ni bya nini?
F: bya nini?
F: si niliisha ku: kuelezea?
R: mm/ [pause]
F: wee: wee unasema: wee unasema: bulozi njo ina: inaharibisha: mambo kwa: kwa bantu/
R: ah ah/ [recording ends]
36. F: Yes, yes. [pauses] Well, well. [pauses] Alright. [pauses] First of all, I thank you, you really helped me.
(Talking of my) work, praying is also work. No?
R: Mm. It is work like you do.
R: Didn't you listen to me earlier when I asked you questions. All this, what is it about?
F: (What it is) about?
F: Didn't I explain it to you?
R: Mm, (if you say so).
F: There is one thing. [pauses]
F: You, you said that it is sorcery that messes up things among people.
R: No no. [recording ends]