The document that follows was recorded
in Lubumbashi on September 30, 1974 (at about the same time as the conversations
with Tshibumba Kanda Matulu). It is now at the core of Johannes Fabian, Ethnography as Commentary: Writing from the Virtual Archive. Durham, NC: Duke University Press. 2008.
Kahenga Mukonkwa Michel, a native speaker of Hemba but also fluent in Katanga Swahili and French, gave his profession as munganga ya miti. He had been consulted for problems of health and security and our exchange turned around the work he had performed. Kahenga also offered general remarks and explanations regarding herbal medicine and sorcery, identification of diseases and medicines, on his clients and patients, and on his life history.
For reasons that are discussed in detail in Ethnography as Commentary the recording posed more problems of transcription and translation than other texts. The standards adopted for the presentation of this document are generally the same as those used elsewhere in Archives of Popular Swahili (see the remarks formulated in the Introduction to Tshibumba's history of Zaire). This also goes for property and copy rights (see the LPCA Editorial Texts and Ownership).
|1||F: hii ni juu: ya
K: pakala eeh: kama muntu anakuya:
K: na: dawa mubaya:
K: anatafuta kutupia1:
K: ah: inarudia: magumo inakuwa ku nymba yake/
K: ile byote alileta: bina: binakuwa nayee moya/ kama alileta bamufu...
|F: This is for rubbing
K: Yes, rubbing. When a person comes.
K: With a bad medicine.
K: Seeking to cast a bad spell.
K: Ah, the [the spell] turns back [against him], there is trouble in his house.
F: I see.
K: All the things he brought will [turn against] him alone, be it that he made the dead come...
|2||F: sawa leo: ulipata
déjà: ulipata clients? busubui?
K: busubui kulikuwa mbili tu/
F: na bo balitaka nini?
K: bale banataka: beko banamuke banakienda2 kazi: ni: dawa ya mu kazi/
F: da: dawa ya mu kazi?
F: mu kazi: ni kusema...
K: mu kazi: kama wanatafuta kwenda: na wanatafuta kutosha wantu wamingi/
K: ule mwanamuke: eeh/
K: sababu anatumika kule ku nani: ts: mu avenue moya/ alafu iko...?... malicenciés ya bantu mingi sana/ asema basinifukuze mu kazi/ unifansie/
K: iko nafansia/
F: ulikuwa na miti kule?
K: niko na: hata sasa nikoamo naye: ile ya bunga/
|F: Today, for instance,
did you already have clients? In the morning?
K: In the morning, there were just two.
F: And what did they want?
K: They were women who wanted a medicine that would help them with their work.
F: A medicine for where they work?
F: At work, that means...
K: (At the place) where they wanted go to find work; (it happened) that they sought to fire many.
K: That one women, yes.
F: I see.
K: Because she worked there at-- what is it called again? -- in one of the streets (in town). But there were a whole lot of people who were fired. (She said, I want you to give me something so) they don't chase me away at the place of work. Do this for me.
F: I see.
K: So that's what I did.
F: Did you have a herbal medicine17 there?
K: Yes, I have it right with me here, as a powder.
|3||F: turudie kiloko:
sawa ile juma: ilipita/
F: mu ile juma ilipita ulikuwa kuikala to ku: ku nyumba: ku Kenya: ni nyumba ya nduku yako/
K: ya nduku yangu/
K: mukubwa yake na huyu/
F: ah/ unataka Simba? bado?
F: kumbe: ulikuwa kukala naye: ku nyumba: na unapokelea tu kila mara: clients/
F: mm/ sawa mu kazi moya: ulirudia Kolwezi/ mu kazi moya?
K: ndiyo/ hapana mu kazi: nilirudia mu kazi inne/ non: mu kazi tatu/ [noise of a door being closed]
|F: Let's back up a
little. For instance, last week.
F: During last week you were staying in a house in Kenia township, the house of a relative of yours.
K: Of a relative of mine.
K: The older brother/sister of this one.18
F: Ah, do you want a Simba (beer)? Not yet?
F: So. You were staying with him in his house and you received your clients whenever they came.
F: Mm. Was it on Monday that you came back from Kolwezi?
K: Yes. No, not on Monday, I came back on Thursday, no, Wednesday. [noise of a door being closed]
|4||F: [resuming] alors/
tulisema: ulipokelea macli: maclients/
F: bon/ usi: uwaze kiloko: balikuwa juu ya.../ ile minataka kutafuta...
F: bantu banafuta: banatafuta: sawa wee munganga: juu ya nini?
K: ah: ku: bon/ kule kuko bantu ingine beko nakuya: sababu ya kuzala/
K: eeh/ kama yee hapana kuzala: naweza kumu: kumuzalisha/ anazala/
F: mm/ mwanaume ao mwanamuke?
K: eeh/ bon/ kama...
F: mwanaume: mwanaume hawezi kupita juu ya ku...?
K: hapana: mwanaume ha...?...
F: kama: kama bibi na bwana habazalake: ni paka kosa ya bibi?
K: kuko: tunaweza kutengeneza: nani: ya kunywa dawa: ya kutengeneza damu yake/
F: damu yake ya bibi?
K: ya bwana/
F: ya bwana/
K: sababu kuko madawa: damu ingine: habapatane na bibi/
F: mm/ ile mutaweza kufanya?
K: eeh/ nitaweza kufanya/
|[resuming] So, we
said you received clients.
F: Fine. Don't [phrase not finished]. Think a little: Were they there about [phrase not finished]. What I want to find out...
F: Why do people seek you, the healer?
K: Ah, fine. There are some people who come because they want to have children (lit. they want to engender).
F: Have children.
K: Yes. When some one doesn't have children I can see to it (lit. make him get children). (Then) he has children.
F: Mm. (Are we talking about) a man or a woman.
K: A woman.
F: Mm. A man can't come by to...
K: No, a man...
F: When wife and husband don't have children, is this only the wife's fault?
K: There is... [phrase not finished]. We can fix this. By drinking a medicine to fix his/her blood.
F: The wife's blood?
K: The husband's.
F: The husband's.
K: Because there are medicines. A certain kind of blood (may be the cause) that he and his wife are not compatible (lit. don't receive each other).
F: Mm. You can do (something about) this?
K: Yes, I can.
|5||bon/ kuko bantu ingene:
banakuya: juu ya nani: ya maladi ile ya ma: matrice: ya banamuke:
K: inayala/ mu tumbo/
K: eh3 matrice: hai: hapende tena kuikala ya tu hivi kitako [indicates the location]/ hapende kuikala tu hivi hapana: hivi mpembeni/ sababu ile...
F: inapenda kuikala mpembeni?
K: eh: kuikala: kuikala mpembeni/
F: pale chini?
K: eeh/ kama yee anaikala hivi [indicates]: inaanza kuluma/
K: sasa inatafuta kutokatoka tu: chini/
K: eeh: bon/ naweza kufanya: ile: inatoboka: inatoka busaha/ alafu: inakuwa muzuri/
K: eeh: inatoka: busaha/
K: eeh/ busaha: kama yake inatoka: bon: yee anaanza kuikala iko muzuri/
F: busaha njo nini: busaha?
K: ni nani: mm [pauses]: si unaona una: unakatika kilonda hivi: eh/
K: unayala hivi/
F: aah: ki: mweupe?
K: eeh ile mweupe/
K: sasa hana na damu/
F: hapana damu/
F: hapana damu: mais ile kama inivimba...
K: kama inavimba...
K: njo busaha/ alafu ule ya mwanamuke inatoka tu: kadiri: mbegeti moya haka kaloko kanani/
F: mm/ njo ile: njo kazi...matrice: hamuna na neno mu Swahili? munasema namna gani?
K: tunasema: eh: mi nani: ni: kitanda ya mwanamuke/
K: kiisha: kama napona: ananipa Makuta/
|Fine. Then there are
others who come because of an ailment of the uterus that affects women.
F: I see.
K: It swells, in their belly.
F: The uterus.
K: Yes, the uterus. It does not want to rest like this, (above) the butt [indicates the location]. It doesn't want to rest like this, on the side. Because this...
F: It wants to rest on the side?
K: Yes, rest on the side.
F: Down there?
K: Yes. If it rests like this [indicates] it begins to ache.
K: Then it is about to drop.
K: Yes. Fine. I can do (something about) this, so that it bursts and busaha comes out. Then it is alright.
F: It bursts.
K: Yes, busaha comes out.
K: Yes, when the pus that is inside comes out then it begins to get well.
F: What is busaha?
K: What is it again? Don't you see, you cut a wound like this. Yes.
K: You have this swelling (lit. you are full of this).
F: Ah, this white stuff (pus).
K: Yes, this white stuff.
K: When there is no blood (in it),
F: There is no blood.
K: That is busaha. But, to come back to this woman, as much a little bucket can come out.
F: Mm. So this is the work with the uterus. Don't you have a word for it in Swahili? What do you say?
K: We say, wait, it's the "bed of the woman."
F: The bed.
F: The bed.
F: And then...
K: And then, if she is healed, she gives me money.19
|6||K: bon/ kuko bantu
ingine banakuya: juu: ku kazi yabo beko nayee matata/
K: anapenda: bale bakubwa: yake: bamupende/ nafanya dawa: ile ya: naweka yake mu chupa: ao pengine ?namuungaisha tu ile mukaba: eh: hata ya hapa [indicates]: hata ya mu kiuno:
K: bon: anakwenda: mu kazi banamupokea muzuri/ eh: paka vile/ kuko: tena...
F: ile juma jana: kwa mufano:
F: kama unawaza/ bengine balifika/
K: juma jana?
K: eh: bali: kulifika tu: mwanamuke: aliendea: matrice yake iko mubaya/ bon/ pale nilikuwa hapa ile asema nilikuwa: asema nilikuwa na douze: ni bale tu bamupende: ba kubapenda mu kazi/
K: njo bale nilikuwa nabo tu/
K: douze: eh/
F: na una: unabapatia nani: kila muntu paka lawa?
K: eh: lawa yake yee anapenda/
F: lawa yake yee anapenda? yee anajua?
K: yee anapenda: asema minapenda dawa: ya: kupenda mu kazi/
F: kila lawa: kumbe kila lawa inaachana?
K: yeye: anapenda: dawa ingine: mungine anakuya asema: minapenda kutoka mule mu kazi/ niende fasi ingine/ niende kuengager kuke ku nani: kama ni ku Gécamines: kama ni wapi: kama ni wapi: ao kama anapatana na muzungu moya: wa kutafuta kutumika naye: anapenda ile: nitamufansia/ yee anatoka mule mu kazi: anakwenda ku fasi ingine/
|K: Fine. Then there
are other people who come because the also have trouble at work.
K: A person wants to be liked by his superiors. I prepare a medicine. This I put in a bottle he brings along. Or maybe I tie this belt, here [indicates] on his loin.20
K: Fine. He goes a way and he is well received at the place where he works. Yes, that's how. Then there are...
F: Last week, for instance.
F: If you think back. Others came.
K: Last week?
K: Yes, what happened was that a women (came) who was having trouble with her bad uterus. Fine. When I was here (in Lubumbashi) I had twelve clients, (all of them with the problem) that they wanted to be liked at their workplace.
K: I only had those (coming to see me).
K: Twelve, yes.
F: And what did you give them? Each person their medicine?
K: Yes, the medicine he (or she) wanted.
F: His medicine, the one he wanted? Does he know?
K: (It's) what he wants. He says, I want a medicine for being liked at work.
F: Then every medicine is different?
K: It is different.
F: It is different.
K: He wants a certain medicine, another one comes and says, I want to get out of this work, I want to move to another place. I want to go and get hired at the Gécamines (mining company), or wherever. Or if he meets a European who wants him to work for him. If he wants that, I arrange it for him. He leaves where he is working and goes to another place.
|7||F: sasa: minashangaa
F: juu ya nini? si njo kazi ya munganga?
F: ni kazi unafunda kwa wankambo/
F: alafu ba: bankambo balikuwa kuikala ku tu: mugini/ ku mugini/
K: ku mugini: eh/
F: habakujua ile mambo ya kazi: ya licenciement: ya kupanda mu macotes: eh: ah?
K: hapana/ banayua/ sababu tu ni mayele: kama unakwenda: si humu mu mugini?
K: kama mugini hamu: bantu banazidi kus: kukombanamo:
K: bon: unaweza kutengeneza mugini bantu wasikombane/ bon: kama kuko muntu ingine iko na roho mubaya: ya bulozi: anafanya dawa: yake: anatulizisha ule muntu mwenyewe kwa bulozi: ana: anamutegea dawa hivi/ kama anakanyanga tu: roho yake inakuya baridi/
F: kumbe wee unaona kama: sawa mugini na usine: haiachane?
K: na usine? haiachane/ basi bantu inye beko mule ni bantu bamoya tu/ [laughs]
F: c'est vrai?
K: ee/ nitaweza kufanya paka vile/
F: kumbe sawa: kama beko na bugomvi kule: banako: kama beko banakombana: paka: pake ni sawa vile zamani ku: ku nani: ku mugini/
|F: Now I am a little
F: Why? This is about the work of a healer, isn't it?
K: It is.
F: It is work you learned from your ancestors.
F: But the ancestors used to live only in a village.
K: In a village, yes.
F: They didn't know about labor problems like getting fired or promoted, right?
K: No. They knew. Because, you must understand (lit. it is a matter of intelligence). (Let's say) you go to a village in this region.
K: All too often people in a village are fighting among each other.
K: Then you can fix it so that people don't fight among each other. Or there is a certain person, one with the evil spirit of sorcery. He21 makes his medicine and relieves this person of sorcery. (What he does is) he sets up medicine like a trap and even if the person concerned (the would-be sorcerer) resists, his spirit will cool down.
F: So the way you see it there is no difference between village and factory?
K: And a factory? There is no difference. After all, the people there are also only people. [laughs]
F: Is that so?
K: Yes, I'll be able to do (what I do) just the same.
F: If there is conflict (at the factory), when they fight among each other, it is just like it used to be in a village.
|8||F: mais zamani: sawa
baku: bakubwa ku mugini/
F: bazee/ tena basultani/
F: balikuwa banatafuta lawa vilevile/
K: paka vile banatafuta/
F: sasa utapata: sasa: hapa sasa: unapata clients ya bakubwa? kwa bakubwa?
K: niko nabo/
F: sawa bakubwa ya sasa: banatafuta...
K: lakini: hapa siyapata hapana/
F: hapa hapana/
K: hapana/ lakini ku mugini niko nabo/
F: ku mugini/
K: eeh/ kama muntu anatafuta kulya busultani ya mugini hivi:
K: na kule kwangu: asema minapenda nikale: bale bote baikale chini yangu/ nifansie/
F: kama atakulya busultani/
K: eeh/ busultani ile ya...
F: alafu hapa ku ville: sawa bale bakubwa ba sasa:
F: habaweze ku: kukuomba?
K: lakini siyapata ule hapana/
F: uliisha kusikia habari kama walifanya?
K: ndiyo: beko natafuta sana/ wanatafuta wanakwenda huku Pweto: wapi: huku mapori huku: ku madawa/4
F: bale bakubwa/
K: eh: bale bakubwa ingine/ bon: unaona humu mu nyumba yenu hamusikilizane/
K: na bibi/ bon: utafanya namna gani? unapashwa kupata mayele/
K: musikilizane na bibi/
F: ao sawa: kwa mufano: mo: muntu moya: alipata commerce yake munene: ao usine yake/ ao ku Gécamines balimufanya: chef d'équipe/
F: ha: ao kapita: kupita kapita/
F: sasa: yee anapashwa kuwa na uwezo/
K: yee anapashwa kuikala na uwezo/ anapashwa kupata dawa/ bantu wa ?kusonga habamukimbie/ yee anasema: banakimbia/ asema ah: patron anasema/ yee hapana kufanya: bana: batamupika/
|F: But in the old
times -- take the big people in a village.
F: The old people, and then the chiefs.
F: They were also looking for medicines.
K: They were looking (for medicine) just the same.
F: Now, are you going to get -- here and now -- clients among the big people?
K: I have them.
F: Like the big people nowadays,22 they look for...
K: But here (in Lubumbashi) I haven't had anyone yet.
F: Not here.
K: No. But I have them back in the village.
F: In the village.
K: Yes. When a person wants to become the chief of a village (literally, and idiomatically, "he is going to eat the office of chief").
K: There, at my place, lets say (someone tells me) I would like to be in a position such that all the others are below me. I should arrange this.
F: When he is about to assume the position of chief.
K: Yes. This position of chief of...
F: But here in town, today's big people, for instance.
F: Can't they ask you for that?
K: But I haven't had such a person yet.
F: Have you heard reports that they have done it?
K: Here (in town)?
K: Of course, they are very much looking for that. They look around and go to Pweto, or wherever, everywhere he in the back-country, to seek (those who have) medicine.
F: Those big people.
K: Yes, some of the big people. Fine. Look, (let's assume) here in your household you don't get along with each other.23
K: With your wife. Fine, how are you going to do something about this? You have to find a solution (lit. a trick).
K: So that you get along with your wife.
F: Or let us take an example of a person who has got his business, a big one, or his factory, or at Gécamines he was made supervisor.
F: Foreman, or even higher.
F: Now, he must have power.
K: If he has to have power he must get medicine. The people around him should not run away from him. (Let's say) he says something and they run away. In other word, when the boss says something and this person says, ah, the boss is talking. If he does not carry out the order they will beat him up.
|9||F: tena: lawa: itakuwa
K: paka miti/ ni miti tu/ hii yote tuko nasema tuko nataka ile bizimba/ mizi: bizimba: iko anakamata: kwa bantu benyewe habayue ile miti/ njo anadanganya kuweka bizimba: kuweka bizimba/ hapana/ ni miti tu: miti njo buzima ya muntu/ unapalula: ile muntu unaona: njo wa chance/ kama unakamata ule: njo wa chance/ unakamata ule: njo mapendo/ kwa: kwa ku nyumba yake/
K: eh/ unafanya paka vile/ huyu mutoto nilikuwa naye hapa: alinibebaka ile ile siku ile/
K: bibi yake: habasikilizane/ njo walinipeleka paka kule ku nyumba/
K: bon: nilikwenda kumupa ya kwake: ku busubui anatoka hapa nilikuya huku: anatoka asema: naona pale plus ou moins/ bibi yangu: nilikuwa anamuambia asema fula nguo: yee hapana fula/ tangu tulinipa ile siku: anaanza kufulaka/
F: mm/ c'est vrai?
F: kumbe ulipata baati/
K: paka vile/ [chuckles]
F: paka baati/
|F: Then, medicine
(for these cases) is going to be strictly herbal.
K: Only herbs. It's just herbs. All this we are talking about, for all this we want these bizimba. Bizimba is what people take who don't know those herbs. That's why such a person fools himself when he keeps putting out bizimba.24 No. It's only herbs; herbs is a person's health. If you take different cases (lit. if you count out, distribute), you see: (for) this or that person (the herbal medicine) is for good luck. Take that one, (I tell him), it is for love in his home.
K: Yes. That's how you do it. Take this young man I had with me, the one who took me here on that day (when we closed the house).
K: He did not get along with his wife. So they brought me there to his house.
K: Fine, I went and gave him his (medicine). In the morning he left there -- I was here -- he left and said, I see that it seems to work, more or less. (It used to be) when I told my wife to wash my clothes she would not do it. Since that day you gave me (the medicine) she began to do the washing.
F: Mm. Is that so?
F: So you were lucky.
K: Right. [chuckles]
F: Just luck.
|10||F: bon: tena/ bon/
tulikuwa na bantu: bale bantu banatafuta bahati mu kazi:
F: bahati muzuri mu kazi: bengine: mwanamuke: tena bengine?
F: juu ya masikilizano ku nyumba:
K: juu ya masikilizano mu nyumba eeh/ bengine matrices: ile kwa kutafuta kutengenesha/
K: mwengine: kazi yake ni tumbo tu iko naluma: kilulu ile ya mu: ya mu tumbo: kiko naluma/ bon: anakuya namupa ile miti: kilulu kinatulizana/5
F: kama kintu kinaluma: ni: kila mara ni kilulu?
K: mu tumbo?
K: eh ni: ni kilulu/ sababu muko wa bilulu tu ya namna mingi: ya banamuke/ mu tumbo ya banamuke/
K: kuko kilulo ya buzazi: na kile kilulu iko nafyonza pale penyewe peko na: kama damu ya mwanaume inakwenda: kuko anafyonza kabisa/ yee mwanaume banaangaria paka...?...
F: iko nafyonza?
K: iko nafyonza ile damu ya mwanaume kama inakuya/
K: eeh/ maneno ya kubeba ile damu: anakulya/ eeh/
|F: Alright. Furthermore.
We had people seeking luck at work.
F: F: Good luck at work. Others -- there were the women. And others?
F: (Who looked for) mutual understanding at home.
K: Mutual understanding at home, yes. Others (who had problems with their) uterus they wanted to be mended.
K: Someone else, his problem (lit. work) is that his belly aches, there is some vermin in his belly that causes pain. Fine, he comes, I give him this herbal medicine, and the vermin settles down.
F: When something hurts is this always (caused) by vermin?
K: In the belly?
K: Yes, it's vermin. Because you have go lots of different kinds of vermin (that affect) a woman, that (cause trouble) in a woman's belly.
K: There is vermin (that affects) fertility. And there is this vermin that, when the man's semen25 flows, it sucks it up right there, it sucks it up completely. As they see it, the man...
F: It sucks?
K: It sucks up the man's semen when it comes.
F: (That is called) kufyonza (repeating the Swahili term), to suck up.
K: Yes. Because it eliminates the semen, it eats it up. Yes.
|11||F: bon/ kumbe: tuko
na macas ingine: ma: maclients ingine? ya namna ingine?
K: mm/ sasa: naona asema: kuko baclients bengine: juu ya motoka/ baliningilia mu uso [=ulizo] moya pale: kwa kutafuta kubeba: nani: motoka yake:
K: lakini aliniita/ asema balitafuta kubeba/ nitaweza kufanya? nilisema: kama Mungu ananisaidia: nitaweza kufanya/
F: kubeba namna gani?
K: kutafuta kuiba/
K: eeh/ na mi niko namufansie: lakini alikuwa anasema nipande na motokari: haikonge naye pale/ baa: yee mwenyewe: ku bulaya: anaanza ?kulumaya/ banamu: bananibeba: banakuya naye asema: huyu yetu: tunamukamata huyu mu hivi/ alitafuta kubeba motoka: anaikonga naye: ku kibambasi moya/ yee mwenyewe: kilari ina: iko maladi kabisa: anaingia mule ndani/
F: ule ali: alitafuta kuiba?
K: eeh/ alafu anakonga ku: mu: ku kibambasi/
F: anakonga ku:
K: ku nyumba/
F: ku nyumba/
K: eeh/ alafu pa kukimbia hivi mbio...
K: anakunja hivi: aah: njo kumbe: kilari iko: pale karibu anaikonga/ ni njo inamu..?... ku nani/
F: c'est vrai?
K: ah bon/ tunakamata/ njo pale balinipa Makuta/
|F: Alright, so, do
we have other cases, other clients of a different kind?
K: Mm. Now, I see, there are other clients (who come) about a car. It has happened that they got me involved in a problem where they wanted to take away someone's car.
K: So the person called me, saying that they wanted to take it. Could I do (something about that)? If God helps me, I said, I'll be able to do it.
F: Take it -- in what sense?
K: Try and steal it.
K: Yes. And I should arrange this for him. What he said was I want to get into the car (but such) that he would not run into an obstacle in this place. As it happened, the owner was in Europe. So he began to have second thoughts.26 They took me (there) and came with this guy saying this is one of us, we got him for this job. He wanted to take a car and crashed into a wall. Now he (hurt) his chest and is really sick. He crashed there into (that wall).
F: This is the one who tried to steal?
K: Yes, but he crashed into a wall.
F: He crashed.
K: Into the house.
F: Into the house.
K: Yes. But when he made a quick get-away...
K: He took a turn like this, and (this happened with his) chest. He did not get far and crashed. That is where it happened.
F: Is that so?
K: So we picked him up. Then they paid me.27
|12||tena/ ah: sawa vile
K: eeh/ paka sawa vile nilifanya kwenu/
K: paka vile/
F: kufunga nani:
K: kufunga: ni nyumba:
K: baclients basileta mubaya ku nyumba: banaikale tu roho muzuri/ kama banapita hivi: banakula ...?...tu: basi/ ile ni ya kutulizisha/ hata ku mugini: kwetu: ni paka vile/ kama unafanya tu nyumba yako: unapashwa ku: kufunga paka vile/ bata...?...ku nyumba: utakuwa tena maskini/
|F: Then there is (work)
like the one you did at our place.
K: Yes, just like the one I did in your place.
K: Just the same.
F: Closing, whatever.
K: It's the house that gets closed.
F: The house.
K: So that the people you deal with don't bring evil to the house. They should have good intentions. When they come by, they eat...?...and that's it. This is about keeping things peaceful. Even in the village back home it's just the same. When you build your house you must close it in this way. Should people (get into) the house, you are going to be poor again.
|13||F: nani: ya [pause]:
tena macas ingine sawa Madame: maladi ya Madame/
K: maladi ya Madame hii: eh?
K: paka vile/ bon/ kuko bantu ingine: uko ule wanani: baba pale aliniita: alinifikisha huku/ batoto yake balikuwa tu na: na kukonda kukonda: banakonda: lakini...
F: nani: Mwenze?
K: ah Mwenze ah/
K: nilifanya/ bon: mutoto mwanaume anakuwa muzuri/
K: bon/ mwengine: anakuwa muzuri: lakini anabakia tu paka ?mukuloko yake/
K: eh: sawa sababu: huko ile miti ya kufunga tu hivi:
K: eh: sababu iko maladi: tunasema ya mukulu/ kwetu inaitwa sungu/
K: eeh/ inayala tu mukono na mukulu hivi/
K: eeh/ ao kufunga mulango: na ya kuinama/ naweza/ lakini hivi nilitafuta huku kwetu: miti hakuna/ paka nitamuletea hapa/ sasa nasikia...
F: hapa: hapa kwetu hakuna?
K: hapa hakuna hata/ nilitafuta huku: ni tumiti tu: tuko inabakilia hapa: tena tu maua/
K: tu maua tu: tu: tuko inabakilia hapa: njo tunabeba/
K: eh/ kama tunabeba: kuchimbula ile mizisi yake: ah: twanga [claps] mu kinu: unafunga/ pasipo kuchanja/ tutakatakata hivi/
|F: Then -- what was
it again? [pause] -- there are other cases like the illness of Madame.28
K: The illness of Madame?
K: That's right. Fine. There are others, (for instance) the man who called me and made me come here. His children were getting skinnier and skinnier...
F: Who was this, Mwenze?
K: Yes, Mwenze.29
F: I see.
K: I did (something about that) and a boy got well.
K: Alright, another one got well, too, but there was still his/her younger sibling.
F: I see.
K: Yes. Because here you have those plants to close...
K: Because there is this illness, we say "of the leg." Back home it is called sungu.
K: Yes. The arm and the leg swell up like this.
K: Yes. [Returning to the subject we started with] Closing the lot so that it stays close, I can do that. Except when I looked for them here there were no plants (needed for closing). I just will have to bring them along. Now I feel...
F: There are none here?
K: None at all. I was searching for them here. All that was left here was tiny plants, and only the flowers.
K: Only flowers were left here, so those we brought along.
F: I see.
K: Yes. When we went to collect (them) we dug up the roots of that plant and crushed them in a mortar. And then you put the lid on (lit. you close), without cutting. Then we were going to cut them up like this.
|14||F: kumbe maclients
yako ku mugini na ku: wa ku tauni banaachana?
K: kuko bantu ingine hapa: asa ni kazi6/ na bandumba njo beko banapenda banipende mu: eh: bana: paka vile/ na kule kwetu: ni paka ni kuzala/ niii [hesitates] kutafuta mugini yake ikale muzuri: mwe ngine anakulya ile busultani ya inchi: iko naye natembea hivi na muti/
K: bon/ anatafuta ile asema: balikimbiaka kama natafuta kusema: anasema na sauti tu hivi: anaipakale: nipakale/
K: kama asema na muntu: pale: pale iko: anapata maladi/ njo paka vile/
F: hapa mu ville paka kazi/
K: hapa mu ville: paka kazi/ paka kazi ya mapendo/ banamuke bandumba/
K: banipende/ kama inapita vile: ananipa Makuta/ inapitia vile: banalipa likwembe/ paka vile/
F: uli: ulipata...?... ulipata maclients?
K: maclients? oh: banamuke njo banapita/
K: banapita kabisa/
K: [chuckles] banamuke tu banapenda paka ni: mapendo ya kazi: [corrects himself] ni ile ya: ya bwana/ bengine asema ah huyu bwana mimi simupende/ anatafuta ?kubaolesha hii mimba/ unipe ile miti ya ku: ile mimba balinipa: nitoshe/
K: bon/ namupa ile miti...
F: kutosha mimba?
K: eeh/ kutosha mimba/
F: wee uko na miti?
K: ah: mina miti/ nitoshe/ bon/ kama: apite tena ku lèvres ya banamuke:
K: bon: namupa ile: miti/ ile anaomba: anapita muzuri/ ku lèvres/ eeh/
|F: So, are the clients
you have in the village are different from the ones in town?
K: People are different here. (They are concerned) about work.
Even the whores want to be liked, that's how it is. Whereas back home, it is all about fertility, it is [hesitates] seeing that a person's village is well. Someone who assumed the position of chief of the country and walks around with a staff...
K: Fine, he comes with a wish. Each time I wanted to address them they ran away, he says. I should make a preparation (so it does not happen).
K: Or let's say there is a person there who caught a disease -- it's the same.
F: Here in town it's just work.
K: Here in town it's just work. Just to be liked at work [lit. work of love], (especially) women who work as prostitutes.
K: (Such a person comes and says) they should like me. If this happens she pays me. If this happens they pay with a piece of cloth. That's how it is.
F: So you found clients (among them)?
K: Clients? Oh, it's the women above all.
F: Above all?
K: Very much so.
K: [chuckles] What women want is to be liked at work, [corrects himself] what they want is the husband's love. Another one comes and says, ah, I don't like this husband. She wants to get rid of the baby she is expecting from him. Give me the herbal medicine, she says, so I can get rid of this pregnancy.30
F: I see.
K: Fine, so I give her this herb...
F: For an abortion?
K: Yes, for an abortion.
F: You have a herb (for this)?
K: Ah, I have the herb (for when I am asked) for an abortion. Fine, if it should pass the woman's labia...
P: I give her the herb she asked for and it passes the labia easily.
F: I see.
|15||F: sasa [pause]: tuangarie:
tu: tuseme tukamate tu cas: cas moya muzuri/ ma: maladi anafika/ ule muntu
F: ah: iko anafika: unamuona: sawa wee unafanya namna gani? una: unamuangaria?
K: kama: basi: njo kama: kama ile matrice ya banamuke eh?
K: niko na bibi yangu iko anaangariaka/
K: bon/ kama ananiambia asema minayaa: mi: niko niwasikie niwasikie: sababu ni mi muntu anayua ile dawa: nakwenda kubeba tu ile lawa: namupa yee mwenyewe/
F: oui mais: pa kujua: maladi yake/
F: unajua namna gani? paka: kumuangaria: ao?
K: ana: ana: ananiambia yee moya/
F: inafaa ku: kukuambia?
K: eeh/ basi kuniambia/ alafu hii ya matrice...
F: hauwezi kupima ku: ku mwili yake?
K: hapana/ siwezi kupima ku mwili yake/ lakini yee mwenyewe anasema: maumivu hivi: iko fasi fulani/ asema anatafuta ile dawa ya: pale penye iko analuma: namupa/ ah: kama iko haiend: haikuendeka: muzuri: minatafuta tena: dawa ya namna ingine/ ya kupima sasa mu: mu mwili yake/
K: kama ile damu inachafuka:
K: namupa ile/ bon: kama ni bilulu ikoamo: namupa tena ingine/ hata vile atakamata: ile ma: maladi yake yee iko naye/ njo iko nani: nilikuya na dawa hapa ya Madame:
K: bon/ nakuya na hii: tupime hii/ sasa alianza kusikia muzuri: sasa: asema: tunatupa: njo pale inaanza kuelea tena/ bon/ naleta hii ingine/ bon/ inapashwa: kama anaangaria: tunapima: inatulizisha: tunayua asema: iko kintu fulani ikoamo mule ndani/ ile dawa njo inamu: ya mupendeza/
|F: Now. [pause] Let's
see. Let's say we just take a case and (look at it) closely. A disease comes.
(You have) this sick person.
F: Right. He arrives, you see him. How do you proceed? You look at him?
K: (It depends.) If it is about a woman's uterus, right?
K: Then I have my wife who does the examination (lit. looks).
K: Alright, if she tells me I have (seen) enough, I should listen to them because I am the one who knows the medicine (that is needed). Then I go and get the medicine and give it to her directly.
F: Yes, but in order to recognize her illness.
F: How do you know? Just by looking, or?
K: She herself tells me.
F: So you need to be told?
K: Yes. It comes down to telling me. However, as far as the (problem with the) uterus is concerned...
F: Can't you find out by examining her body?
K: No. I can't examine her body. Instead, she herself says, this is how the pain feels, this is where it is. She wants the medicine for where it hurts, I give it to her. If it does not go well then I keep looking for a different kind of medicine to try it on her body.
K: If there is this trouble with the blood...
K: I give her that (medicine). If there is a vermin then I give her yet another one. So the takes the medicine that fits the illness she has. This was what happened when I came with medicine for Madame.
K: Alright, I came with this one, let's try it (I said). Then she began to feel well. So we said, let's stop it. That's when she began to feel sick again. Alright, so I brought this other one. Fine. The way it must be is that she observes and we try and when it gets well then we know what the thing is that causes the problem (lit. the thing that is there inside). That is the medicine that agrees with her.
|16||F: sawa wee: kwa wee:
uko naona: maladi: maladi inatoka wapi? K: maladi?
K: bon/ kuko moya ingine:
F: tuko na kabila ya namna gani?
K: ya maladi?
F: sawa vile tuko na kabila ya bantu:
K: [chuckles] ni paka vile/
K: ni paka vile na maladi inyewe/
F: sasa: ile: ile: kabila wee unajua ni: kabila gani?
K: si njo ile niko nakuelezea?
K: ya maladi/ kuko ya matrice: kuko ya: maungo tu yote: na kondakonda:
F: ya maungo?
K: ya maungo: bon/ kukuamo mwengine: anaangaria asema: balinitegea dawa: napashwa kufanya dawa ile: anaweza kumupona: humu ingine: banamutupia mpesé: iko naye kunakuna
K: mu ile inakwenda/
K: eeh: mbesé/
K: njo: na: nani: bupele [furuncle] bwa mwili yooote/
K: eeh/ bon: ile: namufansie: anapona/
F: tena: unaita ingine?
K: kuko ingine: iko na: ile: tuko naita kwetu bukoma/
K: ile ya muvringomuvringo hii/
K: eeh: ya nani? mweupe/
F: muvringo: ina: inaonekana mu ngozi?
K: inaonekana mu ngozi eeh/ alafu ile minaweza kufanya/ njo ile ya ile ...?.../
F: eeh/ tena?
K: kuko ingine: muntu anasikia kichwa: nayua asema: hii maladi: inakuya: kwa muntu: kama nduku yake iko mubaya/ inakuya: kama yee: aligusa fasi inyewe balitosha: ule bwana: alitosha da: nani: kichwa yake: ku muti: kama anaikala: asema nikale: anagusa ule muti [claps]: anabeba yee/
F: anabeba yee?
K: anabeba da: maladi inyewe ya kichwa/ ya ngambo moya/
F: maneno maladi: ilikuwa: ndani ya?
K: ilikuwa ku miti/
F: ku miti/
K: eeh: ni vile nilitafuta asema: Madame: nitamufansia dawa ile anakamata ku muti: hii alikuambia alisema/
K: anakamata ku muti: shee tunafanya hivi tunafanya: itapona/ alafu kama tunaiacha ku muti: muntu ingine anagusako: anakuya na ile maladi/
F: miti: eko miti ya...
K: ya pori/
F: ya pori?
F: ma: mamiti yote/
K: mamiti yote tu/ eeh/
|F: As you see it,
where does illness come from?
K: Alright. There is this one...
F: What are the different kinds we have?
K: Of illness?
F: As we have different kinds (lit. tribes) of people.
K: [chuckles] It's just the same.
K: It's the same as far as illness is concerned.
F: So now, what are the kinds you know?
K: Have I not already explained this to you?
K: (Different kinds) of illness. There are those of the uterus, of all joints, and of getting thin...
F: Of the joints?31
K: Of the limbs. Alright, another one, the way he sees it, (comes to me saying) they put a charm on me. So I am to prepare a medicine that can heal him. Another one caught (lit. they poured on him) mpesé, he keeps scratching himself like this.
K: Wherever he goes.
K: Yes, mpesé.
K: This is when the whole body is covered with furuncles.
F: I see.
K: Yes, so I make a preparation for him and he gets well.
F: Then -- can you name another one?
K: There are others. There is the one we call at home bukoma.
K: The one that comes in rings like this.
F: In rings...
K: Yes, they are white.
F: This ring appears on the skin?32
K: It appears on the skin, yes. But I can do something about that. That is the one ...?...
F: I see. Furthermore.
K: There is another one. A person feels (pain in) his head. I know, this illness comes from someone, perhaps from a wicked relative of his. It happens when he touched a spot where (this illness) was left. This other man took (the pain) from his head and left it in a tree. Now when he -- let's say he sits down to take a rest -- touches that tree [claps] he takes it with him.
F: He carries it?
K: He just carries away his (the other's) one sided headache.
F: Because the illness was inside?
K: It was in the tree.
F: In the tree.
K: Yes. It's like the medicine I wanted to make for Madame, (for the illness) she caught from a tree, the one she told you about.
F: I see.
K: She caught it from a tree. So we do something about it, she will be healed. But had we left it in the tree and another person were to touch it he would have this illness.
F: A tree. It's a tree of...
K: Of the bush.
F: The bush?
F: All trees (can contain an illness)?
K: All trees, yes.
|17||F: Mungu ataweza ku:
K: Mungu analeta malipizi: njo malipizi/
K: analeta maladi/ ni malipizi/
K: malipizi ya Mungu/
F: njo: njo nini? malipizi/
K: kuko: kama ulifanya kosa:
K: eeh/ alafu anaweza kurudishia: kosa yako ulifanya/
K: anakupa maladi/
F: ile kosa itaweza kuleta maladi?
K: ile kosa?
K: eeh/ inaweza kuleta maladi/
F: maladi gani?
K: kuko maladi: ya: mu tumbo: inaleta maladi ya: ya mukongo: bon/ kama unapita ao kule...
F: ya mukongo ya? [points]
K: eeh: mukongo hapa/
K: eeh/ kuko bantu ingine: unapita mu: mu njia: anakuona hapa hooo: angaria kile kimuzungu kile: anafanya: anakuchambula hivi hapa tu: wee haukombana naye? Mungu anaweza kumulipa ma: malipizi yake: njo ile malipizi/ basi unamuchambulia nini? yee atayua: pale maladi itamukamata siku ingine: anakuwa anaangaria paka ile siku/ ni nini: maladi inanikamata?
F: atasikia: kama yee:
F: ah? yee/ ule: ule muntu alipita [=alipata] ile maladi/
F: anafika kwake sasa/ asema: aah: mukongo inanilumia: inaniluma:
F: utaweza kujua paka ni maladi: ya Mungu?
K: ni inaweza kumupa ile maladi: kama ali: alitembea mubaya/ banamuke/ anaweza ku: wa kiluma kingine: ya mwanamuke ingine: anabebayo/ kama alitembea na: chose: na mwanamuke iko na maladi:
K: bon: anaweza kubeba ile maladi ya huyu/ ya mukongo/
|F: Can God send illness?
K: God causes illness. It is a penalty.
K: He causes illness. It is a penalty.
F: A penalty?
K: A penalty, imposed by God.
F: A penalty, what is this?
K: When you have done something wrong.
K: Yes, but (God) can turn the wrong you did around.
F: I see.
K: He gives you an illness.
F: This wrong can cause illness?
K: The wrong (you did)?
K: Yes, it can cause illness.
F: What kind of illness?
K: There is abdominal illness, it causes illness of the back. Alright. (Let's say) you walk by or there...
F: Of the back, like here? [points]
K: Yes, there in the back.
F: I see.
K: Yes. [resumes the sentence he had started] You walk by on the road and someone sees you there -- there are such people -- and calls out, Ooh, look at that stupid white man. That's what he does, he insults you right there. Are you not going to fight with him? God can make him pay, that is the penalty. What are you insulting him for (says God)? That person will know when one day illness takes hold of him. On that day he looks (surprised). What is this, this illness that takes hold of me?
F: Will he understand that it was him...
K: How is that?
F: (That is was) he. This person who walked by (and caught) this illness.
F: Now he gets home and says, aah, my back hurts me...
F: Can you just know that it is an illness caused by God?
K: It can happen, it can give him this illness. (Let's take) women. If (a woman) went out in bad company she may pick up the pain of another women and carry it with her. If she went out with a woman who had this illness.
K: She can catch this illness of the back.
|18||F: na mizimu/ bataweza
kuleta ma: maladi?
K: muzimu? eeh: anaweza kuleta maladi/ sababu kama yo ya baba yako: anakuwa anataka kupikia: pikia kuku: ao mbuzi: bon: anakuletea maladi asema njo haniyue upesi/ alipikia/ kama anakwenda kule: tunasema kulakuza: banakuambia asema oh: mu: ile maladi: ni muzimu yako fulani: wa baba yako: wee bado kupikiako/ bon: anakwenda: anapata ile mbuzi ya: kuku: anakwenda kupikia: anapona/
K: eeh/ bon/ kama ni baba yake alikufa: wee hapana [hesitates]: asema: njo alikamata kuzala kwako ...
F: [interrupting] kumbe bazungu habana na: na ile maladi?
K: na muko naye vile kuko hanaangaria kabi: kabila yake/
F: c'est vrai?
F: na bazungu habatolea: hauwezi kutolea makuku: kwa ba: bazazi ya wa famille/
K: banalo: tolea ku bantu ingine/ kuko tu: kabila mbalimbali/
F: ya wazungu?
K: ule ingine banapikiako: nani: baba yake: [pause, sentence not completed]
|F: And spirits, can
they cause illness?
K: A spirit? Yes, (a spirit) can cause illness. Because if it is the spirit of your father and he wants you to prepare a chicken for him, or a goat, (and you don't do it) he brings you illness, saying, he is too slow recognizing what I want (lit. he does not know me quickly). If he had prepared...33 When he then goes, let us say, to consult a diviner he will be told, oh, this illness is caused by a certain spirit, your father's. You haven't prepared an offering yet. Alright, so he goes to get that goat or chicken, prepares it, and he is healed.
F: He is healed?
K: Yes. Alright. If it is his father who died, you don't [hesitates], let's say he took away your ability to have children...
F: [interrupting] So white people don't have this sort of illness?
K: You have it. This has nothing to do with the race34 of a person.
F: White people don't make offerings. You can't offer chicken to the parents of your family.
K: Some people do make offerings, there are kinds that are quite different.
F: Kinds of white people?
K: There are some who prepare (offerings) for their father [pause, sentence not completed]
|19||F: sawa ile kazi yako:
minaona zaidi zaidi: ulizobelea naye ku kabila yako/ mm? ku kadiri: ku mugini
yako: kabila yako: ya ba: baHemba/
F: mais: sasa unapata clients ya makabila: ya makabila yote?
K: ya makabila yote/
F: juu ya nini? si njo ...?...: ku kila ngambo: minaona bale bantu ya hapa mu Zaire: banataf: banatafuta tu kabila: banafwata tu kabila yake/
K: banafwata kabila yabo/
F: alafu: juu ya kupata lawa: habajue kabila/
F: juu ya nini?
K: lakini kwan: kwangu: kama mule muntu ni wa fasi ingine: tunaweza kulidia ile mizimu: ya kwetu: ya namna ya bale mizimu ya kule kwabo/ ni yee iko nakufwata/ asema ule muzimu fulani: angaria minatafuta kumutunza: kama ni muzungu: unifansie nguvu: kuonana na ile muzimu ya kule kwabo: mwee utapone/
K: unasema vile: unaweza kupona/ anafanyafanya mayele yabo...
F: sawa: mizimu ya: ya kiHemba:
F: banaweza kwe: kwenda ku kiKongo: ao?
K: anaweza kwenda ku kiKongo/ si mufu ule? ile muzimu/
F: mufu anatembea tu: fasi yote?
K: eeh/ anatembea fasi yote/ bon: kama uko na baba yako hapa: unatoka unakwenda kufika kule kwa: huku:
K: hivi nilikuya huku/ minatafuta kufanya: kazi yangu: mpaka nalomba baba yangu/ baba unisaidie: na nani: na kazi hii: niko nafanya: kama ni: muntu wa Kongo: vile: iko na yee iko na baba yake alikufa/ [with emphasis] muonane na ule baba yake: munifansia nguvu: mwee utapona/ anafanya mayele gani: anaweza kupona/
|F: The way I see your
work, essentially it is a practice (lit. you got used to it) you took from
your ethnic group, or not? In the context of your village, your tribe, the
F: But you get clients form all tribes, don't you?
K: From all tribes.
F: Why is this? Isn't ...?... Wherever I look, people here in Zaire seek out the tribe, everyone follows his tribe.
K: The follow their tribe.
F: But when it comes to getting medicine they don't know a tribe.
K: But, as I see it, even when this person comes from somewhere else, we can implore this spirit from our place the same way way they do it with the spirits at their place. It is he (this spirit) who follows you. So (one can say to) this spirit, whoever he is, look, I am trying to heal this person. If it is a white person, make the effort for me to meet this spirit from their place and you do the healing.35
K: If you speak like this you can heal. (The spirit) puts their knowledge to work...
F: Let's take a spirit that belongs to the Hemba.
F: Can he go to the world of the Kongo? Or?
K: He can go to the world of the Kongo. Is he not a person who died, this spirit?
F: A person who died goes everywhere?
K: Yes, he goes everywhere. Alright, if you have your father here, you leave and go there from here.
K: (The way it works) I am here and I am trying to do my work. I just appeal to my father, Father, help me with this work I am doing. If the client is a person from Kongo country, he also has a father who died. [with emphasis] (I implore my father), you (two) meet with this father of his, make an effort for me and do the healing. He does whatever he knows how to do and he can heal.
|20||bon/ tulitaya: tulitaya
kabila ya maladi/
F: kuko maladi ya: [prompting]
K: bon/ kuko maladi ingine:
K: ya: ya: hapana mu nguvu ya mu nyumba: ya ku: kuikala na mwanamuke:
K: bon/ naweza kumupa ile dawa: anaweza kupona na kuanza kuzala muzuri/
F: mm/ na: bon/ tulisema: tulisema maladi: maladi ingine ina: ni paka kilulu/
K: maladi ingine ni mu tumbo/
F: mu tumbo/
F: ingine: inatoka ku roho mubaya ya muntu/
K: ya muntu ingine/
F: ingine: inatoka kwa muzimu/
K: eeh inatoka kwa muzimu/
K: inatoka kwa baba yako/
F: kwa baba yako/
K: anatafuta kulya/
F: anatafuta kulya/
K: he [inhaling, assent]/
F: ingine: anatoka kwa Mungu/
K: Mungu yee moya anakupa malipisi sababu ulifanya mubaya kwa muntu ingine/ kama anakuibia nani: bintu yako mu nymba/ lakini yee anayua furaha kwa leo/ sababu anaisha kupata/ lakini: pale tuko nalia: oh: huyu muntu kunibeba tu vintu yote hivi?
K: ni ile: kusema kwako njo kulia/ unalia kwa Mungu/ bon: après atakuwa kule ...?... geuka anakuwa ?kiluu/ banasema: ni nazani ule muzungu yee alifanya dawa/
K: sababu ni Mungu anamupa malipizi yake/ sema hapana kuibabaka bintu vile ya mwen: ya mwenzako/
F: tena: ingine: inatoka tu kwa: kwa mwenzako:
K: kwa mwenzako/
|Fine, so we named
kinds of illness.
F: There is an illness of... [prompting]
K: Alright, there is another illness.
K: When there is not enough strength in a household, (no strength) for sleeping with a woman.
K: Alright. I can give (the man) this medicine and he can get well and begin to have children without a problem.
F: Have children?
F: Mm. Fine, so we said some illness is caused by vermin.
K: Some illness of [lit. in] the belly.
F: Of the belly.
F: Another one comes from the evil intention of a person.
K: Of another person.
F: Another one comes from a spirit.
K: Yes, it comes from a spirit.
F: Another one...
K: Comes from you father.
F: From you father.
K: He wants to eat.
F: I see.
F: He wants to eat.
F: Another one come from God.
K: God alone punishes you (lit. gives you a fine) because you did something bad to another person. If some one steals things that belong to you from your house, he may feel cheerful today because he pulled it off. But then we begin to complain, oh, should this person carry away everything just like this?
K: Saying this to yourself means that you address your complaint to God. Alright, after that he will change and be...?...36 saying, I think this white man prepared a charm.
K: Because it is God who gives him his fine. Don't go around, he says, stealing things from you fellow man.
F: So, some (illness) comes from your fellow man.
K: From your fellow man.
|21||F: hapa banawaza kama
bazungu banaleta maladi?
K: hapana/ wee uko unakuwa ku....
F: zamani balikuwa kuwaza vile?
K: ndiyo/ sababu zamani munakuwa nafunga maladi/ kama muko nn [hesitates]: unapita: [breaks off and makes a new start] shee tuliona: Kasongo: kule kwetu:
K: bon/ unafanya: balikwenda kuweka: kulikuwa maladi ya busingizi/
K: bon/ alafu bazungu balikwenda kufunga: ku mulima fulani: njo ...?... balilomba kule ku ile muzimu/
K: njo kufika ku muzimu: ule ya muzimu mwenyewe: ku mulima: kabambi: wanaweka nani: dawa: banafunga/ hakuna tena maladi ya busingizi/ sasa bazungu banatoka: kama balipomona: kama ...?...: [chuckles] lakini: kuko maladi sana kule Kasongo/
F: ku: kupomona ni nini? ile ile:
K: ile kintu balifunga pale/ ile ya maladi ya usingizi/
F: balifunga wapi?
K: walifunga ku mulima moya/ kule kwetu/
K: eeh/ ku mulima moya hivi wa muzimu kabisa/
F: kilima/ kilima/
K: eeh/ kilima/
F: kilima: eeh/
F: ah ile: si: mi bado si: kusikia/ donc: kumbe balifika:
F: balitafuta nini?
K: balitafuta: bantu beko nakufa mingi/ juu ya: ya nani: ya maladi/
F: maladi: ah: c'est ça/
K: maladi ya busingizi/
F: ah/ kiisha: bazungu:
K: kiisha: bazungu banakwenda: banakwenda kufunga: ile dawa/
F: ile dawa/
K: kule ku: kule ku muzimu/
F: paka wa kuchunga kule kule juu ya kilima?
K: eeh/ kufanya ile: kusemasema: na bale bamizimu bengine: banazika/
F: kilima gani?
K: kule ku: kilima: alafu nasahabu ile kilima ni ...
F: karibu na: Kasongo?
K: eeh/ karibu na Kasongo/
F: iko nyumba?
K: iko kilima tu kabambi hivi/ hapana nyumba/
F: hapana numba...
K: kilima hauyue?
K: hauyue kilima?
F: kilima minajua/
K: ah bon/ inakuwa...
F: na julu yake:
K: yulu yake: njo...
F: balikuwa kufunga lawa/
K: wanafunga lawa/
F: ile fasi balifunga lawa: utaweza kuona?
K: kwa si: kwa kwenu?
K: ah banaisha kwenda mara mingi kufika kule/ lakini shee tunakuwa nakimbia ku boka: sababu baliisha kufunga/ kama unakwenda: wee unabeba/ ni pepo tu iko napita hivi/ pepo iko napita/ sasa ile pepo inapita: inakamata inakuwa sasa: maladi ya busingizi/
F: ma: maladi: maladi ya busingizi itarudia?
K: inarudia tena/ kule inakuwa bantu bamingi wanakufa ile maladi/
K: sema ooh bazungu mulifukuza: njo bengine banaleta ile mayele yabo [with a chuckle]: balifunga maladi/ tangu tu balikwenda: hata bazungu benyewe: hakuwa tena asema: kukatikana maladi fulani/
F: kumbe paka kufunga hii ma: hii de: lawa:
K: ni paka vile/ si ...
F: habakufanya mapiquures: ma nani:
K: mapiquures hapana/ bakiisha kufunga tu ile: njo sasa kwanza kutunza naye/ ule mwenyewe iko naye: kama iko na chance: anapona/
K: anaanza kumutu...?...
F: wakati gani ile balifanya: zamani?
K: ni zamani/ balifunga/ kama ni [hesitates]: mu: mu: mu dix-huit/
F: mu dix-huit/
F: tangu dix-huit?
K: eh: tangu dix-huit/
F: ...?... mi bado kusikia/
K: aah/ ni kule kwetu Kasongo kule/
F: paka ku Kasongo?
|F: Do they think here
that the whites bring illness?
K: No, you are...
F: (But) in the olden times they used to think so?
K: Yes. Because in the olden times you used to lock up illness. If you come by [breaks off and makes a new start]. (The way) we saw it, in Kasongo, back home.
K: Alright. What you did -- this was sleeping sickness -- they went...
K: Alright, the whites went and locked (it) up in a certain mountain and then ...?... they prayed to this spirit.
K: This is how they made contact with (lit. arrived at) the spirit, on a huge mountain. They put a charm inside it and closed it. There was no sleeping-sickness any more. Did they destroy the charm, did they ...?... [chuckles]? At any rate, there is a lot of illness there at Kasongo.
F: Destroy -- what does this mean? This...
K: This thing they locked up there, the one that (contained) sleeping-sickness.
F: Where did they lock it up?
K: They locked it up in a certain mountain,37 there, back home.
F: A mountain?
K: Yes. A certain mountain that really belonged to a spirit.
F: A mountain. A mountain.
K: Yes, a mountain.
F: A mountain, yes.
F: Ah, this is something I don't understand yet. So, they arrived.
F: What were they looking for?
K: They wanted to do something about the fact that many people died because of sickness.
F: Sickness, now I understand.
K: Sleeping sickness.
F: So then the whites...
K: Then the whites went about locking up this charm.
F: This charm.
K: At that place where the spirit lived.
F: So it was about keeping it there on the mountain top?
K: Yes. To do this they talked at length with some guardians of the spirit. Then they buried (the charm).
F: What mountain is it?
K: It is back there, but I forgot what this mountain (is called).
F: Is it close to Kasongo?
K: Yes, close to Kasongo.
F: Is there a house?
K: It's just a huge mountain, there is no house.
F: There is no house.
K: Don't you know what kilima (mountain) means?
K: Don't you know the meaning of kilima?
F: I know what kilima means.
K: Fine then, there was...
F: And on its top...
K: On its top there...
F: There they locked up the charm.
K: They locked up the charm.
F: This place where they locked up the charm, can you see it?
K: Back home?38
K: Ah, people often went to this place. But we usually avoid it out of fear, because the charm was locked up there. When you go there, you take it along. There is a wind that blows. A wind blows. When this wind blows it takes hold (of you) and there is sleeping sickness.
F: So sleeping sickness is about to come back?
K: It comes back again. Over there, many people die of this illness.
K: Oh, they say, the whites whom you chased away, there were some who worked this trick [with a chuckle] and locked up the illness. Since they left, there is no one, even among the whites (who are still around), who would be able to stop whatever illness.
F: So it was just a matter of locking up this charm.
F: And the that was the end of it.
K: Exactly. Isn't...
F: Didn't they make inoculations -- what do you call it...
K: There were no inoculations. When they were done locking up (this charm) people began to get well. A person who had the illness, with some luck, would get well.
F: I see.
K: He would begin to...?...
F: When did they do this, long ago?
K: It was long ago, perhaps [hesitates] in (the year 19)18.
F: In (the year 19)18.
F: From (19)18 on?
K: Yes, from (19)18
F: ...?... I haven't heard of it yet.
K: Ah, it was back home, there at Kasongo.
F: Right at Kasongo?
|22||F: ah: [pause] tulimaliza
ma: makabila ya:
K: ya maladi/
F: ya maladi/
K: eh: ndiyo: tunasema/ lakini maladi ingine ingali/ kuko maladi ya mukongo/ muntu anapata: kwa bale benyewe banabeba namutukia mubaya/ anakutuka mukongo anayala hivi/ kan ...?.. hivi/ [shows]
K: iko anatembea/
F: ah oui/
F: [to myself] hunchback/
K: eeh/ laki: eh/ ni ile: ni bantu bengine beko nalomba mubaya banafansia ya ku dawa/
F: sasa kama: sasa mifupa:
K: mifupa inakunjama hivi/
F: ao itavunjika/
K: inavunjika: si minaweza kutengenesha?
F: wewe uko naweza:
K: naweza kutengenesha/
F: uko na:
K: na ile dawa/
|F: Ah, [pause] so
we finished (talking about) the kinds of...
K: Of illness.
F: Of illness.
K: Yes, indeed, we talked. But there is still another illness. There is an illness of the back which a person gets from those people who set out to do something evil to him. When this happens, his back swells up like this. [shows]
K: That is how he walks.
F: Ah, yes.
F: A hunchback.
K: Yes. But its other people who wish him ill and cause this with charms.
F: So now the bones....
K: The bones are bent like this.
K: It is painful.
F: The may even break.
K: If they break I can fix them, can't I?
F: You can.
K: I can fix it.
F: You have...
K: I have that medicine.
|23||F: na: ah: sofis?7
K: sofis: minayua ile maladi/ nakupa ndizi: ya kuchoma: unakulya: una: unapita ku diarhée/
K: eh/ kiisha kuwa: ku diarhée: unaona: busaha bote bunatoka kule/ ku mavi/ inaisha/
F: bana: banape: bana: kuomba mara mingi?
K: hapa niliisha kuwa na tatu/
F: paka ndizi ya kuchoma/
K: ndizi ya kuchoma: sababu njo iko inamaliza mapema/ ah ile ingine ya kuinama: nakufanya hivi: ni ya kutulizisha: kama kule: ulikuwa na maungu: ilikuwa mu tumbo: inaisha kuwa kivukutu/ sasa ni ya kutulizisha/ usikale na tena baridi: ni nani: kivukuto/
|F: Then, yes, what
K: Gonorrhoea, I know that illness. I give you a grilled banana, you eat it, and you get diarrhoea.
K: Yes. After you had diarrhoea you will see that all the pus comes out there, with the excrement. That's the end of it.
F: Are you often consulted for this?
K: Here (in Lubumbashi) I have three (clients).
F: Just grilled banana.
K: Grilled banana, because that gets it done fast. This other one, where (the back) is bent I treat you such that you get relief. If it is in the limbs. If it is in the belly, if the belly is hot, it should be calmed down so that you are no longer cold, or rather, hot.
|24||F: na: bon/ kazi yako:
turudie kiloko juu:
F: juu ya kazi/ mbele: uliza: ulizaliwa kule ku mugini:
F: ...?... nasahabu jina yako Ka:
F: Kahenga njo jina yako:
F: ji: jina yake ya:
K: mama yangu?
F: non: ya mugini/
K: ya mugini? Kihangu/
F: eeh/ na ulifunda kazi yako kwa:
K: mama yangu/
F: kwa mama ao wa: wa nkambo?
K: wa: kwa mama yangu/
F: mama mwenye kukuzala/
K: mwenye kuzala mama/
F: donc/ ni nkambo yako/
K: ni nkambo yangu/
K: sasa yee macho hapana: ananipa ile bintu asema tu nika...?...
F: na jina yake ni?
K: Nyange/ ya Kahenga/
F: Nyange ya Kahenga/
F: kumbe wee ulipata: jina:
K: [chuckles] njo jina yake/
F: na yee alipata jina kwa: nkambo yake/
K: kwa nkambo yake/
|F: So, fine. (This
was) about your work -- let us back up little.
F: This was about your work, but first, you were born there in the village.
F: Actually, I forgot your name. Ka...
F: Kahenga is your name.
F: And the name of...
K: My mother?
F: No, of the village.
K: Of the village? That is Kihangu.
F: I see. And you learned your work from...
K: My mother.
F: Your mother, or your grandmother?
K: From my mother.
F: The mother who gave birth to you.
K: The one who gave birth to my mother.
F: I see.
F: So, she is your grandmother.
F: She is my grandmother.39
K: Now, she is blind (lit. she has no eyes). She gives me these things, so that I should ...?...
F: An her name is?
K: Nyange. Ya Kahenga.
F: Nyange ya Kahenga.
F: So you got the name...
K: [chuckles] It's her name.
F: And she got the name from her grandparent.
K: From her grandparent.
|25||F: bon/ mbele: donc:
ulizaliwa kule: [pause] mulikuwa ku: na mission?
K: kuku mission eeh/ tena mi ni: pale kale ku mission kwenyewe/
F: kumbe: ku mission/
F: ulifwata masomo kule?
K: nilifwata masomo: sababu yee hanapende ya mama: ananikatalia masomo/ njo kunibeba/
F: wee ulikatala?
K: hapana/ mama anakatala/
K: eeh/ ni: nilimaliza: cinquième: lakini: certificat niko naye/ sasa pale nilitoka: alinitosha tu: shee: tunafanya tu hii examen: asema ni hivi: banasema: mutakwenda lunani8: Lusaka/
K: ah/ huku/ njo kufunza...
F: sawa mu Zambie?
K: mu Zambie eeh/ Lusaka/
K: juu: kufunda masomo ya pères/
F: bali: balisema ku bapères?
K: balisema ku bapères/
K: baliniagia asema kufunda kule/ basi: mama yangu kusikia vile: njo kunibeba kabisa/ asema: hakuna: mutoto moya tu? hakuna: hakuna: hakuna/ na ba: na bale bapères bale banaanza ku: kombana kabisa/ namna gani? muache afunde masomo/ hakuna/ banatafuta kumutuma ku: ku nani: ku bapères/ hatusipende/ mutoto ni wa mutoto moya: njo kunibeba/
F: alikuwa tu na mutoto moya ile wakati?
K: yeye alikuwa na: yee anazala mama/
K: bon/ mama alizala mi/ sasa mi nilizala tu: nilizalikwa tu mi moya/
K: eeh/ njo vile/ njo kukatala masomo/
F: kumbe mama yako aliza: alizala ku: wee: paka wee moya?
K: paka mi moya/
F: hana na batoto bengine?
K: hana watoto wengine/
F: na bapères balikuwa bapères gani?
K: Pères Blancs/
F: Pères Blancs/
F: mm/ sasa: bon/ ulimaliza cinquième:
K: nalimaliza cinquième:
K: kiisha: mama ananibeba: hakuna tena kupitia ku mission asema hapana: batakwenda tu kukubeba/ nakuwa kumupata ?nishange mu nyumba/ [chuckles, and corrects?] nashinda [remain] mu nyumba ...
F: ulizaliwa: na: eh s: mwaka gani?
K: na mille neuf cent quarante/
F: kumbe mu: ah: quarante-sept: quarante-huit:
F: uliingia mu masomo:
K: mi namaliza na: cinquante si: na cinqu: na cinqua: na cinquante six/
F: cinquante six?
K: mm/ namaliza masomo/
F: ulitaka ku: nani:
K: nitaenda kufunda tena/ sasa: banakatala/
K: baba yangu tena anakufa: mi: ningali tu hapa/
F: ile wakati paka kuwa: mutoto/
|Fine. But first --
so, you were born there. [pause] Was there a mission?
K: There is a mission, yes. Not only that, where I live is this small place right at the mission.
F: So, at the mission.
K: The mission.
F: Did you go to school there?
K: I went to school but then, because mother did not like this, she was against my going to school so she took me away.
F: You were against it.
K: No, it was mother who was against it.
F: She was against it?
K: Yes. I finished fifth grade and I have a certificate.
F: So then I left -- she simply made me leave -- (at a time) when we had this examination and I was told, you are going to Lusaka.
K: Yes, here. To study...
F: (The same name as the town) in Zambia?
K: In Zambia, yes. Lusaka.
F: To study.
K: To study for the priesthood.
F: That's what the priests said?
K: That's what the priest said.
F: I see.
K: They promised me I could study there. But when my mother heard about this she took me away immediately. This can't be, she said, a single child? No way, no way. And those priests really started a fight with her. How can this be, they said, let him study at school. No way, (she said), they are trying to send him to seminary (lit. to the priests). We don't like that. Taking away from me the single child of a single child.
F: She had just one child?
K: She gave birth to my mother.
K: Fine. Mother gave birth to me. As it turned out, I was born a single child.
F: I see.
K: Yes. That's how it was. That was about refusing (to let me go to) school.
F: So you mother only had you?
K: Just me.
F: She has no other children?
K: She has no other children.
F: And the priest, to which order did they belong?
K: The White Fathers.
F: White Fathers.
F: Mm. Now then, you finished fifth grade.
K: I finished fifth grade.
F: And then...
F: Then mother took me out (of school). There was no more going by the mission. No, she said, they are going to take you away. I was going to ...?... at home/ [chuckles, and corrects?] I stayed at home...
F: What year were you born?
K: In nineteen hundred and forty.
F: So, around forty-seven, forty-eight...
F: You entered school.
K: I finished in fifty, fifty, in fifty-six.
K: Yes, that's when I finished school.
F: Did you wish that you...
K: That I could go on studying. But then they refused.
K: What happened then was that my father died, so I stayed where I was.
F: You were just a child at that time.
|26||F: sasa na: bon/ ulirudia
F: ulifanya nini?
K: naanza kulima/
F: paka kulima?
K: mm/ kulima/ mama ananituma kama hapana safari ya kwenda ku: anakwenda ku: madawa yake: ananibeba: twende/ minatembea na yee/ [chuckles] na dawa/ yee anafanya dawa hivi: minako:
K: anafanya paka vile/ njo tuazi mi niko naka: niko namusaidie/ lete bifulani: minakwenda kubeba/ kumusaidia/ nilete bifulani: minakwenda wee: minasaidia/
|F: So then, you went
back to the village.
F: And what did you do?
K: I began to work in the fields.
F: Just work in the fields?
K: Mm. Work in the fields. If it wasn't a long trip she would take me along when she went to look for her medicines. Let's go (she would say) and I would walk with her [chuckles] looking for medicines. When she prepared a medicine I would be there...
K: That's how she did it. These were little chores I was to help her with. Bring this, she would say. So I went and got it. To help her. Bring that, I would always go. I helped her.
|27||F: na: sawa mama/
F: ule mama alikufa: ni alikufundisha/
F: yee alikuwa kutumika peke yake: ao alikuwa na mwenzabo/
K: alikuwa na mwenzake hapana/ sababu alikuwa tu na ...?... iko natokaka: ni: mizimu: anatoka: kwa semasema/ anasema: ile inyewe yasema ni bu: bubira/ hii: [corrects himself] non/ hapana bubira/ ni mm: bugembe/
F: bugembe ni?
K: njo: hii: ile ?kinchake: banatokaka na yee kwa kutafuta kusemasema ile madawa: iko anafansia bantu: na ile dawa ya bugembe/
F: donc ni: ni sawa: muzimu?
K: ni muzimu banatoka/
K: eeh/ anaanza kusemasema/
F: sawa yee ma: yee mama anaanza ku: kutetemeka vile?
K: ah: anafanya hiaa9/
K: hiaa /
K: [falsetto] kasasa kangoy/
K: [falsetto] kasasa kangoy/ kasasa kangoy/ [back to normal voice] njo pale anaanza kuya: eh/ anaanza kuya...
F: mizimu banaonekana ndani yake?
K: eeh: ndani yake/ sasa iko anasema: anaanza kuvwalavwala bile bwenyewe ya: ya kazi yake: eh: anaanza kufansia bantu kazi yake/
F: na wee: wee...
K: mi niko pale/
F: uko na mizimu vile?
K: mi sina muzimu hapana/
K: ahah/ basi nitakuwa na muzimu ile: mi nilikatala/ lakini alitafuta asema: utaweka nawee na hii muzimu/ mi nilikatala: mi ningali mutoto: nitaweka na bile bintu ya kuchezacheza hivi?
K: ahah/ nakatala/
F: ile wakati: ya kufa wee ulikuwa na muzimu yake?
K: mm/ minakatala/ [chuckles]
K: eeh/ pamoya dawa: kuliku hivi/
F: mais muzimu unakatala/
K: ah muzimu hapana/
|F: Now, let's take
F: The one who died, she was the one who taught you.
F: Did she work alone or did she have others like her (to work with)?
K: She had no one to work with. She only had this ...?... who would appear, a spirit that appeared in speech.40 The one who would speak (through her) was called bubira. This one [corrects himself]...No, not bubira, it was, mm, bugembe.
F: Bugembe, that is?
K: That was this thing of her's. They would perform together (lit. appear together) to give these medicines their power. This is what she would prepare for people. (She would work) with that medicine (that got its power) from bugembe.
F: So, it was like a spirit?
K: It was a spirit with whom she would perform.
F: A spirit.
K: Yes. She would begin to talk (spirit talk).
F: Was it like -- did mother begin to shake like this?
K: Yes and she would go hiaa.
K: [calling in falsetto] kasasa kangoy.
K: [falsetto] kasasa kangoy, kasasa kangoy. [Back to normal voice] That was when (the spirit) would begin to come. (The spirit) would begin to come...
F: Spirits made their appearance in her?
K: Yes, inside her. Then she would speak, she would put on her healer's clothes and do her work for the people.
F: And you, you...
K: I was there.
F: And you, do you have a spirit like this?
K: I don't have a spirit.
K: No. I was going to have this spirit but I refused. She insisted, you too are going to rely on this spirit. I refused. I was still a child, should I get involved in these things, dancing around like this?
K: No way. I refused.
F: And when she died did you get her spirit?
K: Mm. I am against this. [chuckles]
F: You are against this?
K: Yes. Medicine does the same, better than this.
F: But you won't have anything to do with a spirit.
K: No, no spirit.
|28||F: sasa bana: kwenu
banataya namna gani bale bantu beko na mu: na bazimu vile?
K: na muzimu?
K: kuko bengine beko nasema: ile anasema bugembe/
K: eh: [corrects me, with emphasis] bugembe/
K: eh/ njo ile...
F: ni jina yake ya:
K: ya ile ki: tu sawa beko banatoka: kuko banatoka bengine: asema: [claps] butembo/ butembo anaanza kutoka: anasema ni muzimu fulani: iko natoka/
K: anaanza kusemasema [chanting] oooh: kucheza paka hivi/
K: bon/ kuko ingine: banatoka na: bu: lungu/
K: eh: bulungu/ bon/ kuko bengine beko banatoka na: bumbudi/
K: eeh/ ile michezo ya bantu bengine beko nalikataka hapa/
F: aaaah/ bumbudi/
F: ni: ni nkundi bale?
K: ni nkundi tu munene hivi/
K: eh/ kuko bengine beko natoka na: ?nyambe/
F: tena nkundi vile/
K: ni nkundi paka vile/
F: mais ile: ile: bugembe:
K: ya mama yangu: eeh/
F: iko nkundi?
K: iko: beko ba nkundi tena paka vile/
F: c'est vrai?
K: eeh/ lakini bale hapana: natumika nabo hapana/
F: sasa wee: hauna mu: mu nkundi?
K: mi sina mu nkundi hapana/ kama anakwenda sema twende kule: mi nakuwa nabasaidia tu: kazi yabo yee iko napenda/ eeh/
K: eeh/ sababu me sipende kuikala: na basemasema bintu: [chanting] oooh: sawasawa bamizimu/ [chuckles] wa:
|F: Back home, how
do they call people who work with spirits in this way?
K: With a spirit?
K: Some say bugembe.
K: No [corrects me, with emphasis] bugembe.
K: Yes, that is this...
F: This is the name of ...
K: That's what they call who perform. Some of them say [claps] butembo. Butembo appears. One names the spirit who appears.
K: So the person begins to speak (chanting) and to dance like this.
K: Fine. There is another one. They perform with (a spirit called) bulungu.
K: Yes, bulungu. Right, and some perform with bumbudi.
K: Yes, it is a dance that some used to like here.
F: They are a (dance) society?
K: It is a big society.
K: Yes. Still others perform with nyambe.
F: Also a group.
K: Just the same, a group.
F: But this bugembe...
F: The one...
K: The one (we know) from my mother, yes.
F: Is it a society?
K: It is. They also belong to a society.
F: Is that true?43
K: It is. But I don't work with those people.
F: So you are not a member of a society?
K: No, I'm not in a society. When someone comes and says let's go there -- I just help them and do the work that (the client) wants (to be done). Yes.
K: Yes. Because I don't like to hang around with people who go [chanting], just like spirits. [chuckles] The ones...
F: You don't like that?
|29||F: kumbe: kale ku:
lugha yenu: muko: bana: banakutaya namna gani?
K: banasema: ina: [hesitates] munganga: bwainaye/
K: eeh: munganga: bwainaye/
K: njo kusema: iko na dawa ya mama yake/ bon/ alafu hii niko nasema asema mu: mufumu: ni mufumu huyu tu banasema: m: ina: buganga bwainaye/ mufumu gee/
F: mufumu gee?
K: eeh mufumu gee/
F: hii gee njo nini?
K: eh? ni kusema: iko: [hesitates] ni: ni fundi wa dawa/
F: wmenye kujua dawa/
K: mwenye kuyua dawa/
F: na hapa mu tauni: banaba: banakutaya namna gani?
K: asema: tuko nakwenda kwa: fundi moya ayue: dawa/
K: eeh/ fundi/
K: eeh/ fundi wa dawa fulani/ [assumes a role] unatafuta kwenda kule kwa ule? aah: anayua/
F: hawaseme: munganga?
K: munganga anasema ni ki: inakuwa kiSwahili/
K: kama wanasema munganga: iko muzuri/
K: paka vile/
F: bon/ mu kiSwahili banakutaya munganga: kila mara?
F: hapana mufumu?
K: hapana mufumu/ mufumu kwa benginebengine: sababu shee tulikamata...
F: sawa vile mufumu: kwenu:
F: ah? na mufumu...
F: mu Swahili: inaachana/
F: si vile?
F: maneno mu Swahili: ni mubaya/
K: mu Swahili [chuckles]: ni mubaya bale/ kwa bantu bengine banayua kiSwahili: banasema hii njo lugha yetu tunasema/ shee na shee kule: baHemba: tunasema: hii njo lugha yetu banasema/
F: mm/ juu: mfumu: mfumu ni:
F: ni mulozi/
K: ni mulozi/
F: bon/ mu: nani: mu/ mulozi: mulozi:
K: ah mulozi hapana/
F: bulozi/ bulozi inai: inaonekana/ sawa muntu moya anasema iko: ni mulozi/ eko anajua? ao: ni yee anafanya bulozi: ao?
K: kwa ule f: ule nani: ule munganga?
F: non: tuseme tu ku mugini muku na muntu moya/
K: eeh/ iko mulozi?
F: eh wanasema ooh ule ni mulozi/
K: eh/ tunayua/ sababu kama anakamata: bale: ule: [makes a new start] mama yangu mwenye:
K: anayua: mukini hii: kipande hii yote ya: Lubumbashi/ anaweza kuyua asema: banakamata mutoto fulani: anatafuta: banatafuta kumuua/ anayua tu/ mutoto fulani wa: fasi fulani: anay: anatafuta: banamubamba: banakuwa bale balozi/ na wanatafuta kumuua/
K: ule mu: ule mukubwa pale: anaanza kularimika: asema oooh: muache ule mutoto: anafanya nini? anafanya nini? eeh? kama aliiba bintu yenu: munapashwa kumulomba tu/
K: mumuachilie/ njo pale banasemaka: ule baba: ule ule: bale ni balozi/ balikamata ule mutoto: banatafuta kuua/
|F: So, what do they
call you in your language?
K: They say [hesitates] munganga: bwainaye.
K: Yes, munganga: bwainaye/
K: This means "he has his mother's medicines." Fine. But when I speak I say mufumu -- they just say, this one is a mufumu, ina buganga bwainaye, mufumu gee.
F: Mufumu gee?
K: Yes, mufumu gee.
F: What is this "gee?"
K: What? It means [hesitates] it is the trade of (working with) medicines.
F: (Of) someone who knows medicines.
K: Of someone who knows medicines.
F: And here in town, how do they call you?
K: They say, we go to a craftsman who is bound to know medicines.
F: A craftsman?
K: Yes, a craftsman.
F: A craftsman?
K: Yes, a craftsman expert in certain medicines. [Assumes the role of a client] You plan to go to that one, ah, he knows.
F: Don't they say munganga?
K: That is to say, munganga is Swahili.
K: (but) when they say munganga this is fine.
K: That's how it is.
F: Alright, so in Swahili they always call you munganga?
F: Not mufumu?
K: Not mufumu. Now and then there are some who say mufumu because we took...
F: As it is, mufumu, in your (language)...
F: No? Mfumu (in your language)
F: and in Swahili mean something different.
K: They mean something different.
F: Don't they?
K: Yes, they do.
F: Because in Swahili (mufumu refers to) a bad person.
K: In Swahili [chuckles] those people are considered bad. People who know Swahili say, this is our language we speak. An we back there, the Hemba, we say, this is our language we speak.
F: Mm. (I am asking) because a mfumu, a mfumu...
F: Is a mulozi, a sorcerer.
K: A sorcerer.
F: Fine. In (Swahili) mulozi, a sorcerer.
K: Ah, (the one we call mufumu) is not a sorcerer.
F: Sorcery. Sorcery happens. Of a certain person it is said this is a sorcerer. Does that person know [that his is a sorcerer]? Is he the one who does sorcery, or?
K: (You mean) how it is with this munganga?
F: No. In a village you have a person...
K: Yes, and he is a sorcerer?
F: Yes, they say, ooh this one is a sorcerer.
K: Yes, we know. Because when he takes (victims), those people... [makes a new start] Take my mother.
K: She knew this town, all the quarters of Lubumbashi. She would know they were taking away a certain child, they are planning to kill it. She just knew. Those sorcerers were planning to capture and kill certain child (living at) a certain place.
K: Then this important person would give orders saying, ooh, leave this child alone, what did he do? What did he do? Right? If he stole your things, you just have to ask them back.
K: Leave him alone. That is when it was aid, this man, or those people, are sorcerers. The took this child and wanted to kill.
|30||F: na: mulozi: yee
F: yee anajua kama anafanya hii kazi: ao inamukamata vile?
K: yee anayua/
F: yee anayua?
F: na yee anapakala lawa:
K: yee anapakala dawa: lakini: ule si wa: dawa hapana/ kuko wa dawa: ni mwanaume/
K: wa: mwanaume njo beko banasema huyu ni mulozi: iko anakamata dawa: ku nyumba hii yako hii banaingia: anapakala dawa/
K: asema huyu akufe/ banasema huyu baba huyu ni mulozi/
F: paka wee: unajua ile kazi?
K: ile ya muntu: kama anatafuta kukutekea dawa?
K: si njo ile minakuambia: kama tunaweka hapa: ku mulango:
K: kama alikuya na ile: [searches] bafu: kutafuta kutupia ku nyumba: atarudia/ yee mwenyewe kule anafika: kichwa matata/
K: yee mwenyewe kule: [calls] aah mutoto: anashituka tu: anakufa/
|F: And about the sorcerer,
the sorcerer as such.
F: Does he act knowingly or is he simply overcome by it?
K: He knows.
F: He knows?
K: He knows.
F: And he, too, prepares medicine, dawa.44
K: He prepares dawa, charms. However such a person is not concerned with dawa, medicine. The one who is concerned with dawa, medicine is an upright person (lit. a man).
K: Upright are those who say this person is a sorcerer. He takes dawa, charms, for instance, into this house of yours they are breaking into. He prepares dawa, charms.
F: And you yourself, do you know how to do this work (or sorcery)?
K: That of a person who wants to set up charms against you?
K: Isn't this what I told you? When we put something here in your parcel.
K: When this person comes with those [searches] spirits of the dead, planning to leave something in the house, he will turn back. When he gets there he will be the one who gets confused in his head.
K: When he gets there (to the house). He will call out, aah, child! He is shocked and dies.45
|31||F: sasa: kila mara
mi bado kusikia muzuri/
F: maneno: [pause] mi sione bale: [makes a new start] sawa ile kazi yako:
F: zaidizaidi ni kazi ya miti/
K: ya miti eeh/
F: bon/ unajua tena kazi: na: makazi ingine/
F: kupaka ile lawa ingine/
F: si vile?
K: ni vile/
F: bon/ sawa na: hata kazi ya bulozi: utaweza kujua/
K: eh: lakini naweza kuyua: lakini sipende kuona asema: wee mukini yote: wee munakamata muntu fulani/ hapana/ naweza kuyua: kama inakuya: hivi: ku nyumba yako: kama iko napita: bale benyewe banapita: banatafuta kufansia mubaya:
K: minasema aah: kuko umbaya yabo/ hakuna muzuri/ na: naisha kutumako: ba: bashetani/
K: bekoako huku/ eh/ naweza kuyua/ maneno pale nilikwenda kuelezea niko na: tunza ule: bale ba bazimu: nilikamata pushi/
K: pushi: eeh/ balituma ku bulozi/ inafika hapa mu mulango: kama inatafuta kuingia: inakufa/ pushi mbio/ yee iko nalia [imitates a sound] umm umm: umm umm: ile ?fufi/
F: ile: ile ile: ndeke?
K: ile ndeke/ mm/ eeh/ inakuya tu inavumbuka hapa: mbili tena: paka vile/ sababu: yee moya anakuya: pale pa kukamatika yee moya anaonekana iko waziwazi: ana: anacheza sawa nani: ana: sawa ndeke/
|F: Now, I really don't
understand this yet.
F: Because [pause] I don't see those [makes a new start] This work you do.
F: Essentially it is working with herbs.
K: With herbs, yes.
F: Fine. And you know other kinds of work.
F: Preparing other medicines (charms).
F: Isn't that right?
K: It is.
F: So, you could know how to work sorcery.
K: Yes, I could but I don't like to be telling people, you, the whole village, should get hold of a certain person. No. But I can know when it happens, in your house, that those people come by and want to harm you.
K: Then I say, this is their evilness; this is no good. Then I end up sending evil spirits after them.
K: And they are here. Yes. I have the gift to know (lit. I can know). Because, (you remember) I went about explaining (to you) (how) I made this person well -- (the case where) those people working with spirits (were involved). I caught a cat.
F: A cat.
K: A cat, yes. (Lets assume) they sent it (to do) sorcery. I come to the gate here and when it tries to get inside the cat dies quickly. And then this fufi calls [imitates the call] umm umm, umm umm.
F: This, this, is it a bird?
K: This bird, yes. It arrives and then it is scared up. There may be two of them. This is how it goes. Because when this person comes he is caught and he is in plain view, hopping around like a bird.
|32||F: sasa: sasa nani:
nani: pusi/ kila mara ni bulozi?
K: kuko pushi ya muzuri/ kuko pushi ingine banatembea nayo mubaya/
F: hauwezi kuona: kama unaona: unaona pusi: sawa uko unaona pusi yetu:
F: utaweza kuj: kujua? kama ni...
F: muzuri ao mubaya?
K: [chuckles] alafu: ile dawa na: naangaria: vile iko:
F: si ...?... tuseme: madame/ iko maladi/
F: mara ingine ni pusi/
K: ile hapana pusi/ [chuckles] mm/
|F: So then, when a
cat is involved this has always got something to do with sorcery?
K: There are cats that come with good intentions, but sometimes people walks around with them who have bad intentions.
F: But you cannot see this, for instance, when you look at our cat.
F: Can you know whether it is...
F: Whether it is good or bad?
K: [chuckles] No, but [let's say] I look at this medicine [to find out] what it is like.
F: Is it not ...?... take Madame, she is ill.
F: Perhaps it is a cat (that causes it).
F: Is that impossible?
K: This (sort of thing) is not caused by a cat. [chuckles] Mm.46
|33||F: na: bon/ kumbe:
kazi ya munganga ya miti/
F: ulisema: zamani ulianza: tangu utoto:
F: ulianza na mama: na nkambo yako/
F: yee alienda ku pori: ku: ku nani: kucha: kubalula tu: kuchanga tu:
F: na kila mara: ali: ali: alikuambia jina? ao alifanya namna gani?
K: miti? ananiambia jina:10 huyu muti ni muti fulani/ kama unatafuta kubeba: unafanya na hi: unafanya na hivi/
K: paka vile/
F: na yote inaningia tu mu kichwa: hauna na mapapiers:
K: hapana/ niko naandika: oh: hapana/ kama ina: mi hapana kuandika: si: nayua muzuri hapana/
F: kumbe wee ulikuwa kuandika?
K: eeh/ si pale nilimaliza masomo? njo pale nilibeba/
F: sasa uko na kitabu kwako?
K: kitabu niko nacho/
F: ya: ya malawa ile?
K: ya malawa ile/ yee mwenyewe sasa: ile beko banasema bizimba/
K: anakamata tu hivi [shows]/ sababu hana macho tena: anakamata ile [makes a sound like clearing one's throat] hmm hmm hmm/
K: hii ni ki: kizimba fulani/ beba/ minakamata ile kizimba/ naandika/
F: kumbe yee ana: hata mecho yake inafungwa:
K: eeh/ anaugusa tu sawa: kama unakuwa na bintu gani: kulikuwa ...?... [chuckles]
F: c'est vrai?
K: asema aah: ni kizimba fulani hii/ utatia mwee moya/ ni kizimba fulani/
F: mais sinon: alikuwa nguvu: anaikala nguvu/ pake mecho yake...
K: iko nguvu tu/
K: lakini kutembea: kiloko/ sababu ni muntu alikuwa muneene/ anakuwa muzee/ hata yee iko nakatala kuya huku/
F: mm/ kama hata?
K: ile: nani: bugembe yake: njo iko nakatala/ kama akuye huku: batamuua mu njia/ hapana kupanda: kinga: hapana kupanda mashua: hapana kupanda avion/
F: c'est vrai?
K: aah/ Munongo njo...
F: yote ni bizila yake?
K: njo bizila yake/ eh/ ile Munongo huyu alikuwa hapa zamani mu Katanga:
K: ah: Godefroid/ [to himself] non/ alafu alikwenda paka kule/ twende batufansie dawa kule kwetu ku Lubumbashi/ aseme: sitaweza/
F: Munongo ali: alikuwa kumuita?
K: ku: kwenda kumuita aah/
F: mm/ mama yako?
K: eh: mama yangu/ alikuwa: kulikuwa vita/ njo anamupa tu malawa: sema mwee munafanye munafanye: lakini kwa kupeleka: hakuna/
F: hata ingi: muntu ingine hawezi kupeleka?
K: hakuna/ hakuna hata/
K: ni: balinipaka zamani: na soixante-huit: balinipa Makuta/ cent: cent Zaire/ asema wee: makambo: wee nayo: huyu nayo/ minakwenda/ Makuta yo hii: angaria Makuta wee: twende/
F: banani: ba: baMunongo?
K: hapa/ eh: na ku kule kwa...?...: na [soi]xante-huit/
K: eeh/ anakuya moya: balisema akuye tu: mpaka: nakwenda kumuonyesha Makuta yo hii/ asema: hakuna/ yee bintu yake anaisha kusema: sitakwenda sitakwenda/
|F: So then, about
the work of a herbalist.
F: You said that you began with this long ago, when you were a child.
F: You began with your mother or, rather, grandmother.
F: She went to the bush to collect and put together different...
F: And did she tell you the names every time? Or how did she do it?
K: (The names) of the herbs? She told me the names saying, this is such and such a plant. I you want to take it along, this is how you do it.
K: That's how it was.
F: And everything you kept in your head (lit. enters your head), you did not have paper (to write on)?
K: No, I write. Oh no, you are wrong there. Without writing (things down) I would not have become knowledgeable.
F: So you kept writing (things down)?
K: Yes. At that time I had finished school, no? So I took (notes).
F: I see.
F: So you have a notebook at home?
K: I have a notebook.
F: Of these medicines?
K: Of these medicines. What they call bizimba (medicinal substances) -- she would...
K: She would take them up like this [shows]. Because she no longer had (the use of) her eyes, she would take up something and say [makes a sound like clearing one's throat] hmm, hmm.
F: I see.
K: This is such and such a kizimba, take it along. So I would take this kizimba and write (down its name).
F: So she, even though here eyes were closed...
K: Yes. She would (know that it was good for) healing.47 Whatever you came up with, there would be...?...
F: Is that true?
K: She would say, ah, this is such and such a kizimba, now you say the name, it is such and such a kizimba.
F: So, apart from her eyes, she was in good health (lit. she had strength)...
K: She was in good health.
K: But she had a little trouble getting around because she was a very corpulent person. She was old. So she refused to come here (to Lubumbashi).
F: Mm. Not at all?
K: This spirit of hers, bugembe, was the one who refused. Should she come here she would be killed on the road. (She was) not to get on a bycicle, get onto a train, or board a plane.
F: Is that true?
K: Yes. It was Munongo...
F: All this is taboo to her?
K: These are her taboos. Yes. So, about this Munongo who used to be here in Katanga some time ago.
K: Yes, Godefroid. [to himself] No.48 At any rate, he went there (to the village) saying, let's go so the medicine can be prepared at our place, in Lubumbashi. She said, I can't.
F: Munongo called on her?
K: He went to call her, yes.
F: Mm. Your (grand)mother?
K: Yes, my (grand)mother. It was during the war. So she just gave him the medicines saying, you do (with them what you want) but there is no way I am going to bring them.
F: Couldn't some one else carry them?
K: No, no way.
K: Long ago it happened, in '68, that I was given money. (The equivalent of) one hundred Zaire. (This is for) you, they said, you and this grandmother of yours.49 I went to (see her). This is the money, I said, look at all this money, let's go.
F: Who were they? Munongo's people?
K: (It was) here. Yes, in this place over there ...?..., in '68.
K: Yes, there was this person who came saying, she should come. I went to show her the money. Here it is, I said. No way, she said, he has had his say (but) I won't go. I won't go
|34||F: na ile ma: mankundi sawa bugembe na bum: bumbudi...
K: bumbudi? eeh/
F: beko bamingi sasa?
K: beko bamingi/
F: maneno zamani balikuwa bamingi: tena: bazungu balikatala/
K: sasa beko tu bamingi pale/
F: banaikala tu: pamoja: ba: nani: banacheza:
K: banacheza s: banacheza mpaka hivi/
F: sasa wee: wee unakatala ile...
K: kutoka nayee bugembe?
F: si njo banafika kwako banasema eeh wee unapashwa...
F: habakufanya kintu?
K: habanifanya kintu hapana/ nakatala tu mi moya/ si mi sitapenda ule/
F: si bataona: kama wee una: unakala: unataka tu kukala na: mpembeni:
F: hauwezi kufanya kintu?
K: ts/ hakuna/ sipende tu/ siwezi kufanya kintu hapana/
|F: And these societies
such as bugembe and bumbudi...
K: bumbudi? Yes.
F: Do they have many (followers) nowadays?
K: Many of them.
F: Because (I know that) there were many of them in the old times and then the whites prohibited (these societies).
K: Now there are many over there.
F: They stay together, they do their dances...
K: They dance, they just do their dances.
F: Now, you, you are against this...
K: To perform with bugembe?
F: Don't they come to your place saying, hey, you must...
F: They don't do anything to (or: for) you?
K: No, they don't do anything to me. As far as I am concerned I am against this. I don't don't like this.
F: Aren't they going to take this (as a sign) that you want to be an outsider?
F: Can't you do anything (with them)?
K: Ts. No way. I just don't like it. No, I can't do anything (with them).
|35||F: sasa: sawa wee
uta: utafundisha ungine? utafundisha ...
K: ule muyomba yangu/
K: mm/ yee tunaanza kutumika/ nilikuwa naye mpaka mugini/
F: yee: anaachana na ule:
K: ule tulikuya naye?
K: hapana/ hu: huyu ni muloko yake na: na mama kwa huyu mama mwenyewe alinipa ile dawa/
K: njo huyu/ alafu huyu muyomba: na ba: na baba yake:
K: njo na: nani: ni yee: yee njo muyomba yangu/
F: sawa bo banafunda?
K: yeye? banafunda/
F: banafunda wapi: ku mugini ao hapa?
K: ule anafunda hapa/ ku nani: ku université: kyenyewe/
F: oui/ mais: kufunda kazi yako?
K: huyu banafunda: paka kule kwetu/
K: njo mwengine banatembea naye/
F: na yee vilevile anaandika ao?
K: yee angali mutoto yangu ya dawa [chuckles]/ lakini banaandika/ kama mi: namutuma muti...
F: mais c'est vrais wee uko na: uko na kitabu ya:
K: niko na kitabu ile eeh/ lakini hapa sikubeba/ sababu inaisha kunikamata ku kichwa/ kama minaona tu ule muti: minasema ni muti fulani/ bon/ yee: ah kule ku mukini: kama minasahabu: minatosha ile kitabu/ naanza kusoma/ sababu ya kuweka tu mu kichwa/ huyu muti iko inafanyaka: muti: paka vile/ sawa ku: kufunda/
F: sawa yee anapashwa kukulipa?
K: mama: mama yangu: eh: mama yetu mukubwa/
K: eeh/ alibaambia asema mutamulipa/
F: analipa juu ya kufunda kazi?
K: juu ya kufunda kazi eeh/
K: mbuzi/ mbuzi mbili: tatu/
|F: So, are you going
to teach some one else? Are you going to teach...
K: This nephew of mine.
K: Yes. He (and I), we begin to work (together). He stayed with me in the village.
F: He is not the one...
K: The one who came with me?
K: No. That one is the younger brother of the woman who is the daughter of the woman who gave me that medicine.50
F: I see.
K: That's that one, whereas this nephew and his father...
K: He (his father) is my uncle.
F: So they are learning.
K: He? They are learning.
F: Where, in the village or here?
K: This one?
K: This one is learning here, right at the university.
F: Fine, (but what about) learning your work?
K: That one is learning back home.
F: In your place?
K: He is the other one they (meaning: I51) go around with.
F: And he also writes (things down), or?
K: He is still my "medicine child" [chuckles]. But he writes.
F: But it is true that you (write down things) in a notebook.
K: I have that notebook, yes. But I did not bring it along here (to Lubumbashi) because I know it by heart (lit. it has caught me in the head). When I see this plant (herb) I say this is such and such a plant. Alright, but (when I am teaching) him, over there in the village, and I forgot (something) then I take out the notebook and I begin to read (in it) so that I remember (lit. put it in the head) this plant is good for that, and so on. That's a way to learn.
F: Does he have to pay you?
K: That one?
K: (He pays) my mother, that is, our grandmother.
F: I see.
K: Yes. It was said you should pay her.
F: He pays for learning the work?
K: For learning the work, yes.
K: A goat, two or three goats.
|36||F: kama muzungu: kama
muzungu anapenda ku: funda kazi:
K: ah: si anafunda kazi/ alafu miti: mi niko nakuonyesha? si mpaka kwa unayua: kama unayua naye: aseme...
F: utaweza kumufundisha?
K: eh/ kama uko na: hauna kazi: kila siku tunakwenda mu pori: kwa kubeba muti/ huyu muti/ tunakuya hivi: tunaanza kusema/
F: na yee [recording interrupted for changing sides]
... mi mina: mi sitaweza: ma: maneno tunapashwa kurudia/
F: mais mara ingine: minajua moya: minajua mbili/
F: banatafuta weee: banatafutafuta kufunda hii kazi/
K: miye: mi njo: kama nakwenda kumuonyesha namuambia: ule muntu anapashwa kufanya naye hivi/
K: anapashwa kufanya hivi/ sababu anayua kama: unamuambia/ ile muti/
K: unamuambia ile muti/ [selects a sample]
K: alafu anakuonyesha kwa ule muntu: anamuomba ngapi?
F: mm/ [pause; we begin to look at herbs] he brought along]
K: hii njo kibongo ile unaandika/
K: eeh: njo ile/
F: kibongo: ile:
K: njo mizizi yake ile/
F: ah: njo mizizi yake: njo: mawani [corrects himself] enfin: ma: mayani yake?
K: mayani yake/
F: aah: mayani...?.../ eyo/
|F: (What) if a European52
should like to learn the work (of healing)?
K: Ah, why not? But (why do you think) I am showing you these plants? So that you know. If you have the knowledge...
F: You could teach such a person?
K: A European?
K: Sure, if you are not busy we could go to the bush every day to get a plant. When we come back we are could talk (about it).
F: And he...[recording interrupted for changing sides of the cassette to which the original tape was copied]
... I would not be able to (do this) because we will have to go back (to America).53
K: I see.
F: But perhaps I know one or two persons...
F: ...who have sought for a long time to learn this sort of work.
K: As far as I am concerned I will show this person and tell him (about it) and he must then do it the same way.
K: You tell him (the name of) this plant.
K: You tell him (the name of) this plant. [selects a sample]
K: But how much do I ask from the person to whom I show this?54
F: Mm. [pause]55
K: This one is called kibongo,56 the (name) you wrote down.
K: Yes, that's the one.
F: This one is kibongo.
K: These are the roots of the plant.
F: I see, these are its roots. An these are the leaves?
K: Its leaves.
F: Ah, the leaves...?... I see.
|37||non: eh: mais: juu
ya ku: kufika kwenu/
F: sawa mara ingine mi niko na rafiki moya: anapenda sana sana hii kazi/
K: si unakwenda kule kwa muntu: unamuelezea yee?
F: mais: ndiyo mais: ku mugini yake [=yako]: inafaa nikamate jina ya mugini/
K: kwa miye pale niko: ku mission kwenyewe/ Sola/
F: donc: mama:
K: mama yangu: iko: Moba/
K: eeh/ njo pale/
K: hapana: hapana/ hapana mu Albertville [chuckles]/ paka kule kwetu/
F: mais: sawa: kwa kukuandika: ni...
K: kuniandika mi?
F: oui/ sawa kama: na mission?
K: ni pa mission eeh/
F: [reads while writing down] Mission:
K: Catholique: [pause while he waits] Sola/
F: Sola: ni: region: ao zone: region ya:
K: ni ile ya: nani: ya Kilubi/ ya Nkulu/
F: mais: sawa adresse: postale?
K: postale yake ni: B.P. 6/
F: [continues writing] B.P. 6:
F: à Sola?
K: à Sola/
F: ni karibu na: Kongolo?
F: [pause] na mu: bana: banakujua ku ile jina? ao ni Kahenga:
K: banayua: kule kwetu/ Kahenga:
K: eeh/ alafu: ku bale: bengine benzangu na bengine banasema Michel/
F: ex-Michel/ [pause] Sola ni mbali ya Kongolo?
K: unafika Kongolo: tunasema iko: vingt-deux kilomètres/
K: eh non/ trente-deux/
|But no, (I first wanted
to talk) about how to get to your place.
F: Because I think I have a friend who is very interested in this work (of healing).57
K: Can't you go to that person and explain it to him?
F: Yes but, (to get) to your village, I need to note down the name of the village.
K: I see. My place is right at the mission at Sola.
F: So, mother...
K: My mother lives in Moba.
K: Yes, that's where she lives.
K: No, no. Not in Albertville [chuckles]58, just a place there in our region.
F: In your region.
F: But, for instance, to write to you...
K: To write to me?
F: Yes. Perhaps to the mission?
K: It's at the mission, yes.
F: [reads while writing down] Mission...
K: Catholique [pause while he waits] Sola.
F: Sola, (I assume) is a region or a zone; the region of...
K: Of -- what is it again? -- Kilubi; (or rather) of Nkulu.59
F: But what is the postal address?
K: The postal address is P. O. Box 6.
F: [continues writing] P. O. Box 6.
F: At Sola?
K: At Sola.
F: Is that near Kongolo?
F: [pause] And in [the village] do they know you by that name? Or is it Kahenga (and something else)...
K: Back home they know (me by the name) Kahenga...
K: Yes but some of my people say Michel.
F: Ex-Michel.60 [pause] Is Sola far from Kongolo?
K: To get to Kongolo, let's say it's twenty-two kilometers.
K: No, wait. Thirty-two.
|38||[pause] F: sijui kama:
uko ni kintu ya: ya ku: kuongeza: juu ya ile namna ulifunda kazi yako/ sijue/
tangu: tangu mwanzo: mulitumika: ku tauni vilevile?
F: tangu: tangu:
K: tangu nilianza kutumika?
K: eh: ni mama iko: iko ananituma: wende kule/ ku fasi fulani/ wenda kufanya: wenda kufanya/ kama ni mufumu fulani: anatafuta ku: kulya busultani: wa inchi: ananituma: wenda kufanya: wenda kufanya hivi/ ni mi nakwenda/ njo kuya kule nayo/
|[pause] F: I don't
know whether you have anything to add on subject of how you learned you
work. When you started out, did you also work in town?
K: What do you mean?
K: Since I began to work?
K: Yes, it was mother who sent me, saying go there, to such and such a place. Go to do (the work). When there was a some chief who wanted to assume his office of being chief of the country she would send me saying go and do (the work), go and do it in such and such a way. It would be me who went there to see about this.
|39||F: mm/ napenda: ya
kwanza na mizizi: minataka ku: maneno nilifanya: mi niliandika: vilevile
juu ya kunikumbusha: vile: tulifanya: tulifanya na tuliendelea na: kufunga
F: mm? nalifanya croquis kiloko/
F: si unaona lupango yetu:
F: na hapa ni nyumba yetu/
F: sasa: ile: ile: nani: iko na jina?
F: ile ulifanya/ ya kufunga/
K: banasema: dawa ya kufunga nyumba/
F: dawa ya kufunga?
F: mu chikwenu?
K: cha kwetu asema: nakuzika nzibo/
K: kuzika: nzibo/
F: kuzika: nzibo/
K: eeh: kuzika nzibo/
F: nzibo ni?
K: nzibo njo nyumba/
K: ha [sound of assent made by inhaling]/
|F: Mm. What I would
like (to speak about now), first about the roots -- I want to (ask), because
I also took notes so that I would remember what we did and how we went about
the closing of the lot.61
F: Right? I did a little sketch.
F: You see our lot, don't you?
F: And here is our house.
F: Now, is there a name for this?
F: For what you did, the closing.
K: They say medicine for closing a house.
F: Medicine for closing?
F: (What is it) in your language?
K: In our language it is nakuzika nzibo.
K: Kuzika nzibo.
F: Kuzika nzibo.
K: Yes, kuzika nzibo.
F: Nzibo means?
K: Nzibo means a house.
F: I see.
|40||F: bon/ kumbe: ulianza:
F: jimu/ jimu: ngapi? jimu: munane/
F: kila mara inafaa: jimu: munane?
K: munane pake vile: sababu: kama unatafuta kutokea hapa/ una...?...?mgemo/ kama unatafuta tokea huku mpembeni: ana...?...mgemo/
F: mm/ sasa: ulianza: [pause] ulikuwa na nani? ulikuwa na: na ile bintu shee: shee: enfin:
K: bizimba? hapana...
F: ile: ile...
K: ilikuwa ni miti tu/
F: miti tu?
K: eeh/ kama naweka miti:
K: na bile bya: kutuliza bantu: banaku: ku chamukia: huku kuiba bintu:
K: eeh: tulifanya/
F: ya: ya ngapi: ya: ya kuachana? niliona ya mingi kweli/
K: ni ya kuachana: ya changa: njo kuchanga pamoya: ikale nguvu/
F: mm/ tena ulikuwa na: sawa ka:
K: eeh/ kale njo ka kufanya uniasha kupakamo mu dawa/ maneno iko...
F: ni paka dawa/ mpaka miti?
K: ni paka miti tu/
F: paka miti...
K: ni miti eeh/
F: ah bon/
F: ah: [to himself in English] ball: buleti11/
F: sawa buleti ...?.../
K: mm/ [chuckle]
F: na ile uliisha ku: kupaka kwako?
K: ndiyo/ paka kwangu: sababu kama minaingia sawa nipakie hapa: ilikuwa trop tard/
F: oui oui/ oui oui/ kumbe uliingia: tena: ulipashwa: mbele ya: ulipashwa ku: kutosha ma: manguo yote/
K: ndiyo/ tosha manguo yote: njo kuvwala: kichavuchavu/
|F: Fine. So then,
you began by digging...
F: Holes. How many holes? Eight holes.
F: Does it always take eight holes?
K: Eight, just the same. Because if you want to start here you...?... mark the place (for the hole). If you want to start here in the corner you mark the place.62
F: Mm. You began [pause] -- what was it that you had with you, those things wee...
K: (You mean) bizimba (a magic charm63)? No.
F: This, this...
K: It was just herbs.
F: Just herbs?
K: Yes. When I put herbs there...
K: Whatever is needed to stop people who cause you trouble64 by coming here to steal things.
K: Yes, that's what we did.
F: How many different (herbs). I saw (that you had) a whole lot of them.
K: There were different ones, to be mixed, to be combined so that they would remain strong.
F: Mm. And then you had with like a little...
K: Yes, this little thing you get when you prepare the medicine. Because it is...
F: You prepared it?
F: So it's the preparation. Only herbs?
K: It's herbs only.
F: Only herbs...
K: It's herbs, yes.
F: I see.
F: Ah, (rolled into) a ball.
K: A ball.
F: Like a meatball...?...
K: Mm. [chuckles]
F: And this you had already prepared at home?
K: Yes, at home. Because if would I were to begin making the mixture here it would take too long (lit. it would be too late).
F: Yes, yes. Yes, yes. So you got inside (the lot) and then you first had to take off all your clothes.
K: Yes, I took off all my clothes and then I put on a loin cloth.65
|41||F: bon/ kiisha uli:
uli: uliweka: bidani: tena: ulikuwa ku: sawa kuomba/
K: ndiyo/ kulomba/
F: kuomba nani?
K: kuomba: baba yangu:
F: sa: unafanya namna gani? ah: iko: kila mara: inaachana kila mara: ao muko sawa na wimbo?
K: hapana/ tunaachana/ ni kusema bule/
K: ni sawa kulilia pa ule: mm: nkambo yako: ao baba yako: ao: muzimu fulani/
F: ...?... unaweza kuni: kunitaya/ enfin: sawa vile ulifanya? mu chi: hata mu chikwenu?
K: tunasema: mi namuzibia: huyu muzungu: nyumba yake/
K: wee: baba fulani: wee muzimu wetu fulani: ukuye: hapa: kumuwekea nguvu ku nyumba yake/ muntu anakuya: kutafuta kuiba: yee moya: apate accident yake/ unifansia nguvu: hapa/ mi sipakayo? nasema vile/
F: na: mu: mu: mu kiHemba?
K: mu kiHemba tunasema: be tutu: Mukenge Mbuyi: njiline: muzungu: dyegee: bintu byakale: ya upasi/ bantu: bamuswa: kuiba: bintu byo: bintu ya hii muzungu: ya mwine: akuze mubibwale/ njo hii/
F: mm/ tena ulitaya: majina ya: nilisikia sawa...
K: maji: majina ya nani: ya baba/ baba ni Mukenge Mbuyi/ mama Nyange alinipa dawa: unifansie nguvu/ muntu kama analomba: ni mpaka wee: tuko nalililia: mwenye alinipa dawa yako/ sikuiba ile dawa/
F: na Kayembe bu...?...
K: na Kayembe [chuckles]/ njo sultani yetu/
F: njo sultani yenu?
K: eeh/ na Yagamino njo muzimu wetu mukubwa/ [repeats for me] Yagamino/
K: mm/ ni muzimu kabambi kabisa/ kuna ?mayee kwenda: kama unakwenda tu: asema: leo nitakwenda kuonana Yagamino: hautamuona/ hakuna/ unatembea: unakuya/ sema niende tu: nikamuone tu mu nguvu/ asema na mi niko hapa/ unafika tu: kunakuwa tu ni muhulu paka hivi/ hautamuona/
F: bengine banaisha kumuona?
K: kuko bengine banakwenda: inakuwa mubaya tu/ tu shee tunamuonaka/ sababu mule: njo ku mi nakwendaka kubeba dawa/
F: eko na: na nymba?
K: iko na nyumba ya: ni: mu: ni: libwe:
K: iko apata: [hesitates] mm: douze mètres/
F: ile mu...
K: [corrects himself] eh: hapana: eh/ douze mètres hapana: ni vingt mètres/ yulu/
F: karibu na mutoni?
K: eh? iko karibu na mutoni eh/
F: ni kule anakala?
K: yeye eh: ule muzimu/ anaikala kule...
K: kama mule chini...
F: ni ...?... ?
K: ule? m: ule muzimu?
K: ni Yagamino/
F: muzimu gani? banaomba mwanamuke?
K: kuko mwanamuke: na mwanaume paka kule/ mwanaume: na: sema: wee mwanaume: [corrects himself] mwee mwanamuke anatafuta kuni: kuni: pitia/
K: kunipitia bulefu/
K: alafu: shingu yake mpaka hivi/ [shows]
K: eeh/ hivi inakunjama hivi/
|F: Alright. And then
you put on a necklace and you seemed to be praying.
K: Yes, praying.
F: Praying to whom?
K: Praying to my father...
F: How is this done? Is it -- how shall I say? -- is it different every time or do you have (a set texts), like songs?
K: No, we change it (every time), it is just talking.
K: It's like calling for this ancestor of yours, or your father, or a certain spirit.
F: ...?... could you recite this for me. Just as you did it, in your language?
K: We say I close66 his house for this white person.
K: You, baba such and such, you, our spirit such and such, come here to give him strength in his house. Should someone come to steal, this person should be the one to have an accident. Make an effort for me here. Did I not prepare (the medicine)? That's how I speak.
F: And in kiHemba?
K: In kiHemba we say...[see Swahili text]...That's what it is.
F: Mm. Then you called the names of -- it sounded to me....
F: Like names.
K: The names of my father, his is (called) Mukenge Mbuyi. (I also called) mama Nyange who gave me medicine, she should make an effort for me. When I pray (lit. when a person prays) it is only to you, it is you I call for, you are the one who gave me your medicine. I did not steal that medicine.
F: And Kayembe...
K: And Kayembe. [chuckles] That was our chief.
F: He was your chief?
K: Yes. And Yagamino, he (or she) is our great spirit. Yagamino.
K: Mm. He is a great spirit indeed. There is something about appealing to him, a saying: Today Yagamino and I are going to see one another, (but) you are not going to see him. No way. You walk, you get there. You may say I'll go and I will see him clearly (lit. strongly). You get there, telling yourself here I am, (but) but there will be just a grove. You are not going to see him.
F: Have others seen him?
K: There are some who go (to see him) but it is a bad experience. Only we always see him. Because this place is where I go to bring medicine.
F: Does he have a house?
K: He has a house, it is a rock.
K: It may be as high as mm [hesitates] twelve meters.
K: [corrects himself] No, wait, not twelve, twenty meters, to the top.
F: Is it near a stream?
K: What? It's near a stream, yes.
F: That's where he lives?
K: He, yes. This spirit lives there....
K: It is like down there...
F: Is it ...?...
K: That one? That spirit?
K: It is Yagamino.
F: What kind of spirit? Do they pray to a female (spirit, lit. to a man)?
K: There are female (spirits) and there are male (spirits) in this place. The male spirit says you (male) [corrects himself], you female, you are someone who tries to surpass me.
K: To be taller than I.
K: But her neck only reaches up to here. [shows]
F: I see.
K: Yes, it is bent like this.67
|42||F: na ku kazi yako:
na: unamuomba tena: Yagomino?
K: eh: na: paka: namulomba/ basi njo: njo: sultani wetu wa kwetu ya...
K: ya mizimu/
F: ya mizimu/
K: na: ya mizimu/ mizimu yote eeh/
F: ni sawa: ni sawa vidye?
K: ni sawa vidye/ wa kwetu/ [chuckles] njo...
F: njo ile banabataya: vidye?
K: bavidye/ banasema: mu nani:...
K: muzimu eeh/
F: muzimu: muzimu na vidye inaachana: quoi?
K: vidye: shee kwetu tunasema: ni muzimu/
K: uli... [brief interruption of recording] ... njo vidye wetu/ eeh/
F: alafu haina Mungu?
K: huna na Mungu hapana/
F: Mungu iko na jina ingine?
K: Mungu iko na: basi: si sawa na ule Mungu:
K: unalia asema: oh: Mungu: unipe muzuri/ banasema vidye: utaye bintu bya ukosi/
|F: And do you pray
to Yagomino in your work?
K: Yes, of course, I pray to him. Fact is, in our country he is the head of...
K: ... the spirits.
F: Of the spirits.
K: Of the spirits, of all the spirits, yes.
F: Is (this spirit) like (what is called in Luba) vidye?
K: It's like vidye, as (it is called) back home. [chuckles]68 It is...
F: That's what they call them, vidye?
K: Bavidye. That's what they say in...
F: Muzimu (spirit)....
K: Muzimu, yes.
F: Muzimu and vidye are different, or not?
K: Back home we say vidye is muzimu.
K: You... [brief interruption of recording] ... that is our vidye, yes.
F: But is (vidye) not the word for God?
K: No, it has nothing to do with God.
F: Does God have a different name?
K: Mungu (God), that is the word used for this God...
K: You call to him, saying oh Mungu give me something good. Then they say (in kiHemba) vidye utaye bintu bya ukosi.
F: I see.
|43||F: ...?... yee: napindule/
mais/ ha/ Yagamino/
F: kila inchi: na inchi:
K: iko na muzimu yake/ sawa mu Muhona: iko na: nani: iko na [pauses] mmm: Mulamba/
F: ku: ku ngambo gani?
K: ni baHemba paka vile/
F: sasa: ah bon/ donc: acha: ile: ile: inafaa: nisi: nisikie muzuri/
K: aha? [chuckle]
F: kumbe: nipindule... [interruption for changing sides of tape] bon/ ni ile nilitaka ku: kuuliza/
F: sasa: sawa Yagamino: iko na: territoire yake? iko na: inchi yake?
K: mm: ni inchi ya Nkuvu/
K: mm/ njo kwetu/
F: Nkuvu: ni kipande ya?
K: ya pale ...?...
F: ya kiHemba?
K: ya kiHemba eeh/ kipande ingine/ ya sultani Kayembe/ njo Nkuvu/
F: ya Kayembe/
K: eeh/ alafu: mu: Muhona: tunasema iko nabaki/ mule/
K: eeh/ ni Mulamba/
|F: [aside] ...?....
I'll have to turn this.69 But, let's see. (So this was about) Yagomino.
F: Every country...
K: Has its spirit. For instance (the spirit) Muhona owns [pauses], wait, Mulamba.
F: What part is this?
K: It's also Hemba (country).
F: Now then, fine. But wait a minute, this I must understand well.
K: Oh yes? [chuckle]
F: So then let me turn (tape)... [interruption for changing sides of tape] Alright, this is what I wanted to ask.
F: Yagamino, for instance, does he have territory that belongs to him? Does he have his country?
K: Mm. It's the country of Nkuvu.70
K: Mm. It's back home.
F: Nkuvu, what is it a part of?
K: Of that place there...
F: In Hemba country?
K: In Hemba country, yes. Some part of it that belongs to chief Kayembe. That's Nkuvu.
F: Belonging to Kayembe.
K: Yes. But we say where Muhona lives...
K: Yes, that is Mulamba.
|44||F: eyo/ bon/ donc:
turudie ku ile kufunga nyumba: uliomba bankambo: na: na: na mi: na mizimu:
F: kama banakusaidie/
K: saidia eh/
F: mm/ tena: aah: [pauses] aah: mbele ya kuanza:
F: tulipashwa ku: nani:
F: ni dawa: ilikuwa tu sawa nani:
K: eeh/ dawa/ ile ya: kufunga: dawa hivi: kupakala/
K: alafu: kama kuko: hivi unakwenda kufanya: usipate: usipate accident/ sababu bale mimi nabalomba: niko napita nabo/
K: bon/ alafu kama na uko tu kichwa wazi: unapata maladi/
F: kila mara?
K: kila mara: kama nafanya/ alafu kama muntu anafanya hivi: njo iko muzuri/
F: sawa kama wee: unapata lawa:
F: kila mara unapashwa kufanya juu:
K: paka vile/
F: kupakala ile mizizi/
|F: I see. Fine. So
let's get back to the closing of the house. You prayed to ancestors and
F: They should help you.
K: Help, yes.
F: Mm. And then, ah [pauses], ah yes, before starting....
F: What was it we had to do?
K: The medicine.
F: That's it, medicine. It was like...
K: Yes. Medicine. The medicine you prepare for the locking.
K: But when you go about this you (must see to it) that you don't meet with an accident. Because I visit those to whom I pray.
K: Yes but if your head is unprotected you catch an illness.72
K: Always when I do this. But when a person does this it is good.
F: So when you get a medicine...
F: You must always do this to...
K: That's the way (you do it).
F: Prepare those roots.
K: That's it.
|45||F: aah: tena: niliona:
uli: ulichofesha nini?
K: ni bulongo/
K: na matako/
F: na matako?
F: juu ya nini?
K: juu: kuweka hivi hapana/ njo sawa:
F: [noise of some one entering the room] ah attends: juu: juu ya nini?
K: minachofesha matako?
K: ni juu ya: ya bale benyewe banakuya: naisha kuba: tunasema kwetu: kuizinda/ sawa ku...?...[short passage in kiHemba] anakuwa ?kubaya/
F: banafaa kuwa na matata?
K: eeh: pa kufanya: matata: njo ku: ku: lupangu sawa/
K: asema: anish: anaisha ku lupango: si ya ku: huyu muntu anakuya anakuya: anapata mukoshi/
F: anapata mukoshi?
K: eeh: anapata mukoshi/
|F: Ah, and then I
saw that you moved something. What was it?
K: It was earth (soil).
K: (Id did it) with my butt.
F: With your butt?
F: Why that?
K: To avoid putting it there (with your hands). It's like...
F: [noise of some one entering the room] Ah, wait. Because of what?
K: (Why) I use my butt to move (the earth)?
K: I do it because this is to kuizinda (clean yourself), as we say in our language, of those who come (to steal). [short passage in kiHemba]...73
F: So it must be people who come to cause trouble?
K: Yes, to make trouble on the property.
K: When he gets onto the property such a person is cursed (lit. receives a curse).
F: He is cursed?
K: Yes, he is cursed.
|46||F: mm/ tena ulikamata
K: kakitambala: kufunga huku/ [shows]
F: oui/ kitambala/
F: uliweka kintu ndani?
K: niliweka kintu ndani/ dawa/
K: eeh/ njo ya: ile: kama atafuta kusema: muntu anakuyaka: anaingia ku mukongo: hapana kuingia mbele/
F: tena: aah...
K: si kale ule...
F: uli: ulikamata ule?
K: minatupa hivi/
F: ulitupa ku mukongo?
F: bon/ donc/ tulisema ulitosha: kanani: ka: ka: sawa ilikuwa kaibwe minaona/
K: kaibwe eh/
F: ha? kaibwe/
K: si libwe hapana/ ni mbegu/
K: ni mbegu eeh/ njo mbegu napalaka na ile dawa/ alafu kama: unafanya: kazi: unapashwa kuikala na yee/
F: hapa ku ...?
K: hapa ku kule eh/
F: ku...?...ku: kufunga...
K: eeh: hapa mbele/
F: oui/ na mingi: ao?
K: ni paka ile/
F: kumbe/ wee ulitupa ku mukongo/
K: natupa ku mukongo: ule wa kuya: asiingie brusquement/ kama wa kuingia tu hivi mu nguvu: anapata kupata accident/ kutupa hivi ya mukongo/
K: muntu anamukaka/
F: [pause] njo yote?
K: ni paka ile/ njo vile nalikuwa napitapita humu/
F: na kila mara: mais ile ile ulisema: iliichana: kwa: kila mara?
K: hapana ile iko tu pamoya/
F: iko tu pamoya/ kila mara/
K: mm/ hapa naweka sawa bazamu/ bamilitaires/ [chuckles]
|F: Mm. Then you took
K: A small piece of cloth, tied up here. [shows]
F: Yes, a piece of cloth.
F: You put something inside?
K: I put something inside, medicine.
K: Yes. This is (to make sure) that the person who comes enters from the back, not from the front.
F: And then -- I see...
K: It was this small thing...
F: The one you picked up?
K: I threw it like this.
F: You threw it behind you?
F: Fine. So, let's say you took out this little thing. I saw it was something like a little stone.
K: I little stone, yes.
F: A little stone, right?
K: (But) it was not a stone. It was a pit.
F: A pit?
K: It was a pit, yes. That a pit that I used in the preparation of this medicine. When you do the work you must have it with you.
F: Here in this...
K: Here inside, yes.
F: In this ...?... (cloth that was) tied together.
K: Yes, here in front.
F: Yes. Many of them, or?
K: Just the one.
F: That one.
F: So then, you threw it behind you.
K: I threw it behind me so that the person who comes (onto the property) should not enter quickly. And when the entry is forced he meets with an accident. You throw it like this, behind yourself.
K: It puts such a person under a spell.74
F: [pause] Is that all?
K: That's it. This was how I kept going a round here (on the property].
F: And every time (you did this you said something). What you said, was it different each time?
K: No, it was always the same.
F: It was the same. Each time.
K: Mm. (What I did here) I placed something like guards, soldiers. [chuckles]
|47||F: mais: hapa: ile
fasi kule: niliona: sasa ni: ni jimu/
K: ni jimu tu/
K: ile binyewe binakuwa mule: hapa nilisahabu: panier na kuku/
K: kya lu: kya lulako eeh/
F: njo tutaangarie: mbele:
F: tutaangaria mbele/
|F: But what I saw
over there in this place, it was a hole.
K: It was a hole.
K: These things that were put there (in the hole) -- here I forgot something, a basket with a chicken.
F: A chicken?
K: Yes ...?...
F: F: We are going to look at this first.
F: We'll look at it first.75
|48||bon: tena: aah [longer
pause] juu ya miti/ aah/ si uliweka: mayi?
K: eh/ [pause] mayi?
F: uli: uli: ile ulimwanga/
K: nileweka mayi eeh/ mayi: ya kusema: mu mukini banaikalaka baridi/ njo kamata ile mayi ya baridi: ...?.../
K: eeh: mukini: inaikalaka baridi/ kama muntu wa: magumo: wa magumagumu anaingia: fanya: fanya/ muntu anafwata asema: naikale hapa/ sababu wee moya: uko naona: ku masikio: kuko kimya/ kama banakuiba kule: bon: banakuya: fungulia mu nyumba: banaiba bintu: utakuwa na amana [security]? unapenda kutoka/
K: kumbe: niumiako hapa mayi ya baridi: ni kusema: mu kimya: unapashwa kuikala: muzuri/
|Fine. Then. Aah [longer
pause], about herbs. But wait, didn't you put water (into the prepared holes)?76
K: Yes. [pause] (About the) water?
F: The one you poured.
K: I poured water, yes. Water signifies that in this village people should be living in calm (lit. remain cool). That's why you take cold water and...?...
K: Yes, a place that stays cool. (What happens is that) some one, a real trouble-maker, gets inside and does all sorts of things. A person is then going to say, I'll stay here. Because when you yourself look and listen (everything may seem) quiet. But when they rob you in this place, when they come and break into the house and steal things are you going to feel secure? You want to leave.
K: Therefore I pour cold water here, which is to say that in a place that stays calm you are bound to live in comfort.
|49||F: tena: ulifanya:
si ulifanya: kama ulijunguluka [when you went around] na mayi:
F: uliomba tena bankambo?
K: eh: niko nabalomba paka vile/
F: mu ki...
K: mu kiHemba eeh/
F: mu kiHemba/
K: tunasema: chibalo: chagi muzungu: chi mikalanga: wahé/ muzungu: akulonde kule kwetu: kubawine made: kya bule kutenga ...?.../ mu jina cha chibalo: chaikale huyu/ ni kusema: mu nani12: ule muzungu anafwata huku kwetu: ni sababu: anapenda: aikale kimya/ hapana: magumo magumo: inamutokea/ njo vile: basi/
|F: And then you did
something else, didn't you? You sort of made the rounds with the water.
F: Did you then also pray to the ancestors?
K: Yes, I prayed to them like I did before.
K: In Hemba.
F: In Hemba.
K: We say [here follows a passage in Hemba, see the Swahili text for my attempt to transcribe it] This European came here to live in our country78 because he wanted to live in calm, not expecting to run into all sorts of trouble. That's how (I prayed), and that's all.
|50||F: tena niliona uli:
K: eeh/ si tena kwa Mungu?
K: si tena kwa Mungu?
K: nalikuomba Mungu/ Mungu unisaidie hapa/ eeh/ basi: hii byote minafanya: ni nguvu yako/ sina kintu ingine ya kufanya: ?isipangu: una: unaomba muzimu: unaomba muntu: unaomba nyama fulani: lakini: kwa nguvu yako: unifansie muzuri: muzungu: aikale muzuri/
|F: I also saw that
you made a gesture like this (pointing to the sky).
K: Yes, isn't that (praying) to God?
F: It is?
K: Isn't that (praying) to God?
K: I prayed to God. God, help me here. Yes. All the things I do (work because) of the power you have. It's the only thing I can do and it isn't mine (?). You may pray to a spirit, you may pray to a person, you may pray to some animal, but the strength is yours. Do this for me so it come out well. (This) European should live in comfort.
|51||F: njo ma: eeeh: jina
yake ya Mungu mu: mu kiHemba?
F: vilinyambi/ vidye: vidye?
K: hapana vidye/ sawa ile vidye: njo kusema ni kiLuba/
K: asema vilye:
K: eeh/ vidye: vilinyambi/
F: munaomba na vi: na nyambi?
K: [somewhat impatient] si nyambi? si Mungu? he/
F: oui mais mara ingine bantu: bamingi: banayua: bana: banayua kama iko/ mais: habaombake hapana: habana uzoezo ya kuomba:
F: banaomba tu mazi: mizimu: na:
K: beko naomba mizimu?
K: pasipo kumuyua Mungu? alafu Mungu: hapana aliumba mizimu?
F: ndiyo/ mais: banasema: ndiyo tunajua Mungu iko: mais: iko mbali/
K: aaah: Mungu [chuckle]:
F: kwenu hapana?
K: kwetu hapana/ Mungu iko tu karibu/ lakini kama: unaweka tu: sabotage: ya kuweka kwa Mungu: hata bintu yako yote: itakuwa mubaya/
F: unatolea kwa Mungu?
K: natolea kwa Mungu/ ni sadaka mi niko nalomba/
F: haba: alafu nani: ku: kuua kuku: ao:
K: kuua kuku: naweza kusema...
F: pikia: pikia kuku:
K: kupikia kuku/ unaweza kulomba: hii: wee baba fulani: wee baba fulani: wee baba fulani/ wee muzimu fulani: wee muzimu fulani: wee muzimu fulani/ lakini: [with emphasis] kwa nguvu ya Mungu: mufanye nguvu yote: munifansie huyu/ muntu/ kuku yake: yo hii: nasu: nakutolea: sa: sadaka/
K: unarudia kwa baba yako/ baba yako: unapashwa kusikilizana sasa: sababu yeye: anaisha kufa zamani/
K: baba yetu: mwenyetu eh/
K: anaisha kufa zamani/ ao unalomba nkambo yako fulani/ paka vile/ wee hapana kulomba Mungu: ni kusema: bintu yako yote: haitakuwa: na baraka/
F: mm/ baraka njo...
K: baraka eeh/
F: njo unatafuta kama munaomba:
K: eh/ tunalomba vile:
K: njo Mungu: anakupa baraka/ hata: mayi ingine: tuko tunatafuta kufansia muntu: tuna: mi niko kamata paka mayi ya baraka/ ya mu nyumba ya Mungu/ kamata ile: kama anatafuta kunawa: nitoshe mikoshi:
K: nakamata mayi ya nyumba ya Mungu/ natia kiloko: hii ingine natia ya ku mutoni: natia/ hii mayi ya baraka: minasema: tunaomba umu: umubarikie huyu mutoto: sababu anapenda kazi yake iendelee/ kamata mayi ya baraki kiloko: natia/
F: kumbe mayi ya baraka ku nyumba ya Mungu iko na nguvu?
K: iko na nguvu/
K: eeh/ bon/ ile masisi: ya nyumba ya Mungu: iko na nguvu/ sababu ni kintu inaisha kubarikiwa/
|F: Let's see, what
is the name for God in Hemba?
F: Vilinyambi. (Is this like) vidye?
K: No, it isn't vidye. Vidye is how they say it in Luba.
K: (We) say vilye.
K: Yes. (Not) vidye, vilinyambi.
F: Do you pray to nyambi?
K: [somewhat impatient] Is nyambi not God? Really (you should understand by now).
F: Yes, but sometimes people know (God) exists but don't usually pray (to him).
F: They just pray to spirits and...
K: The pray to spirits?
K: Without acknowledging God? But did God not create the spirits?
F: Of course, but they say yes, God exists but he is far away.
K: Aaah, God.
F: Is it not like that back home?
K: Not in our country. God is just near. But if you sabotage79 God then all your affairs will go bad.
F: Do you make offerings to God?
K: I make offerings to God. It's the prayer I say.
F: But something like killing a chicken or...
K: About killing a chicken, I can say...
F: Cooking and preparing a chicken.
K: About preparing a chicken, I can pray to one or the other ancestor, or one or the other spirit. But (what I say to them is) [with emphasis] with the strength of God do everything you can for me (and) for this person. This is his chicken, I offer you a prayer.
K: You go back to you father. You have to come to an understanding with your father because he died long ago
F: Who is that?
K: Our father, our forebear.
K: He died long ago. Or you pray to some ancestor of yours. That's how it is. If you don't pray to God it means none of your affairs will have (his) blessing.
F: Mm. It's the blessing...
K: Blessing, yes.
F: That is what you seek when you pray.
K: Yes, that is how we pray.
K: It is God who gives you (his) blessing. Or, (to talk of) something else, the water (we use when) we seek to do something for a person. I just take holy water from the church (lit. the house of God). I take it, for instance, when some cleansing must be done in order to lift curses.
K: I take (holy) water from the church. I use a little and the rest I pour into a stream. (When I use) this holy water I say we pray you should bless this young person because he would like that his work goes well. I take a little holy water and use it.
F: So the blessed water from the church has power?
K: It is powerful.
F: I see.
K: Yes. Fine. And those ashes from the church, they are powerful because this is something that was blessed.
|52||basi: huyu padri:
K: ni kusema ni muntu/ iko naagana: kila mara: na: na: na mufu karibu karibu/
F: mufu gani?
K: na mu: na mufu huyu: mwenye aliisha kufa hivi/ yee anaweza kumuona hivi/ waziwazi/ sasa kama analomba kintu: anaweza kumupatilia mingi/ anaweza kuomba kwa Mungu pale: nani:
F: sasa bapa: bapadri kama banaingia ku nani: ku kaluku13 kule/
K: ah si: anasema na mufu/ alafu mi wangu: ya kusema na mufu?
K: sina nguvu/ [chuckles] yee alifunda bitabu mingi: ya kumupa tu nguvu yake/
F: si njo banatembea na:
K: ah ile bitabu eeh/
F: kama banatembeatembea: ku kaluku:
K: kaburi: iko anasema: iko banasema/ alafu: hata muntu: alikuwa na: toka: mu kamata bantu: sawa mu: eh: ku: ku nyumba: anaweza kumufunga/ hata nkambi hivi:
K: si anafunga mufu? basi she tuko na ule ya kufunga mufu: ule anasema nafu: nafunga yee munyororo? [chuckles] kama ni: kumbe padri: ni wa lazima kwetu/
F: wa lazima?
K: ni wa lazima: padri/ sababu...
K: maneno: yee iko anasimuliasimulia: sana: na: mufu/ kama anasimuliasimulia: karibu sana: na Mungu/ kama analomba kintu kwa Mungu: si mara mingi: anamu: banamukatiria/ sababu ya bile: bitabu yabo beko banasoma/
|Take this priest...
K: He is a person who is always very close to the dead.
F: Which dead?
K: A dead, a person who has died. (The priest) can see him clearly. When he prays for something (the dead) may give him a lot. And he can to pray to God in this place, what do you call it...
F: So, when the priests go inside the cemetery there...
K: Ah, he talks to a dead, doesn't he? But I myself, talking to a dead (person)?
F: You don't have...
K: I don't have the power. [chuckles] (The priest) studied a lot and that gave him his power.
F: They do walk around with...
K: Yes, with those books.
F: When they walk up and down the cemetery.
K: The cemetery. And they keep talking all the time. But (let's take the case) where a person appears who wants to snatch people from a house. (The priest) can lock him up (or tie him up) with a rope.
K: He ties up the dead, doesn't he. But we, when it comes to tying up the dead -- can I put one in chains? [chuckles]. So we need the priest in our country.
F: They are needed?
K: The priest is needed, because...
K: Because he is in constant communication with the dead and that is like being in constant communication with, or very close to, God. When he asks God for something it does not happen often that he is refused. Because of the those books they read.
|53||F: alafu zamani: mbele
ya kufika kwako: enfin: mbele ya kufika ya...
F: nani alifanya hii kazi?
K: mama: alikuwa ana: fanyaka hivi: anakamata mayi: ya pa mutoni: hapana kuangaria ku mukongo/ sababu ule: njo iko naagana na bale bamufu ya benzake/ analomba analomba: hivi nayee hawezi kufanya/ anaweza kuikala muzuri/ alafu mi ningali mutoto sawa bile ya kwa kuonana na bamufu/ [otherwise...] kichwa itakuwa: mubaya/
F: na bale ba: ile kazi ya bapadri: paka bazungu banaweza kufanya ao?
K: mm/ kama anaisha kuingia asema iko père: ki: ni kama anaisha kusoma vile/
F: hata kama ni: muntu mweusi:
K: hata muntu mweusi anaweza:
K: anaweza kufanya eeh/ sababu anaisha kukubali: maneno ya Mungu/
|F: But long ago, before
coming to your place, before the arrival of the...
F: The missionaries.
K: The missionaries?
F: Who did this work (that the missionaries do now)?
K: Mother, and this is how she did it: she took water from a stream and never looked back (when she did this). Because (then) this person who involves the dead on his side may pray and pray but he can't do a thing. So (mother) could live in peace. But if I would still be a child without having met with the dead, my head would be in bad shape.
F: And this work that the priests do only Europeans can do, or?
K: Yes, when a person has entered the priesthood after studying as required.
F: Even if he is a black person?
K: Even a black person can...
F: He can...
K: He can do this, yes. Because he has accepted God's words.
|54||F: sasa: bali: balikubatiza
K: kila ?hii mbatizo: niko Michel/ nilifanya na marriage:
F: mm/ catholique?
K: catholique/ mm/ sasa hapa na...
F: hata batoto yako: banaenda ku: masomo?
K: ku masomo/ bote/
K: catholique eeh/ [indicates] basi niko hapa: nyumba iko hapa/
F: mais si njo: si njo nani: ba: bapères bataweza kumu: kukatala:
F: kazi yako?
K: hapana/ bapères banakuya: kama niko: bale niko na bantu makumi tatu ku nyumba/
K: bamaladi/ bapères banakuya asema: fanya nguvu: bale bantu shee tunashindwa ile maladi/ bananipa mayi ya baraka/ banamwangamwanga mule kama beko nalota mubaya/ sababu niko: karibu: nyumba iko hivi ya pères/ ni nyumba ya Mungu: mi niko hapa/
K: eeh/ ni kama naona tu nguvu: ya kufanya hii dawa: nakwenda kuomba wapadri/
F: sawa: kumbe wee unafwata dini: dini ya catholique?
K: minafwata dini ya catholique na byote: minakuwa mwenye nafwata: lakini kwa kukomunika: sababu naisha kuwa: na:
F: juu ya ba: juu ya bibi mbili?
K: juu ya bibi mbili banakatala/
F: haa [sound expressing astonishment]/ c'est vrais?
K: [chuckles] eeh/
F: na eh: uko unasikilizana na bapadri?
K: bote nasikilizana nabo/ [pause] basi: bapadri pengine: kama kuko mugonjwa wa: wa kwabo: ule: mupadri moya iko mugonjwa: banapima hii dawa ya: ya ku: kongola: anakuya anarudia: anasema kama utaweza kufanya dawa ya kufanya? minaweza kumupa ile dawa: anapona/
F: c'est vrai?
K: njo kamata: unakatala?
F: alafu bo bana: banapenda kusumbulia na wee sawa mi: sawa mi ...?...?
K: bana: tena: kila nani: juma moya: nakwenda kule kwa père mukubwa/
F: unasikilizana naye?
K: ah tunasikilizana naye: tuko nasema: tuko nasema: uko unafanya namna gani? asema nafanya kinwya: nafanya kinywa...
F: na yee anaandika vile?
K: yee anaandika mpaka vile/ alafu: ananipa Makuta asema: kumbe uko m: uko nafwata maneno ya: kimuzuri: sababu bengine banaomba asema paka yee kizimba hii njo itakuponyesha tu [with emphasis/finality]/ pasipo kumutaya Mungu/ lakini iko mubaya/ lakini byote bizimba: ilileta Mungu/ yee padri iko nasema paka vile/
F: jina yake? ni muzungu?
K: eh ni muzungu/
K: hapana muzee/
F: hapana muzee/
K: anakuwa tu mpaka sawa/
F: mpaka sawa?
F: jina yake ni?
K: ni Joseph/
F: Joseph/ ni Joseph/
F: mais: munasumbulia mu kiSwahili ao?
K: nasimulia ao mu kiSwahili/
F: mu kiSwahili/
F: hapa: aah: yee ha: hajue kusema s: kiHemba?
K: kiHemba anayua kiloko kiloko sana/
F: paka kiloko/
K: hayue mingi hapana/
F: si njo na bamapères bote banasumbu: munasumbulia tu mu Swahili?
K: bapadri tuna: simulia tu mu Swahili paka/
|F: Now. Were you baptized
K: Like every one. My name is Michel. And I also had a church wedding.
F: Mm. Catholic?
K: Catholic, yes. Right now...
F: Your children go to school?
K: (They go to) school, all of them.
F: Catholic (school)?
K: Catholic, yes. [indicates] I live here and the school house is there.
F: But couldn't the Fathers forbid...
F: Your work.
K: No, the Fathers come (to my place) when I am there. I have thirty persons at my house.
K: People who are ill. The Fathers come (to me) and say make an effort for those people, we were defeated by this illness. They bring me holy water and sprinkle it everywhere in this place, (for instance) when the sick have bad dreams. Because the place where I live is this close to the house of the Fathers. Here is the church and there the place where I live.
K: Yes. When I run into problems preparing the required medicine I go and ask something from the priests.
F: So you follow the catholic religion?
K: I follow the catholic religion in every respect, I am a follower. But as far as communion is concerned -- because I have...
F: Because of the two wives?
K: Because of the two wives they refuse (communion to me).
F: They refuse?
F: Really. Is that true?
K: [chuckles] Yes.
F: So you get along with the priests.
K: I get along with all of them. [pause] It may happen that one of them is ill. They try out prescription medicine on the priest who is ill. (If it does not work) he may come back saying can you prepare a medicine? I can give him that medicine and he gets well.
F: Is that true?
K: Why refuse to take it?
F: But do they like to talk with you as I do...?...?
K: They (do). And every Sunday80 I go to (see) Father Superior.
F: You get along with him?
K: Ah, we get along. We talk and talk. How do you do it, (he asks) and I keep telling (him).81
F: And does he also take notes?
K: He also takes notes. More than that, he gives me money saying what you practice is a good thing because others who are asked for help will say only this magic charm is going to get you better, nothing else. Without mentioning the name of God. That is bad, all the charms -- they are God's gift. This is how this priest talks.
F: What is his name? Is he a European?
K: Yes, he is a European.
F: Is he old?
K: No, not old.
F: Not old.
K: He is middle-aged (lit. just so-so).
F: His name is?
K: It's Joseph.
F: Joseph. It's Joseph.
F: But you converse in Swahili, or?
K: I talk (with him) in Swahili.
F: In Swahili.
F: Not in -- he cannot speak Hemba?
K: He only knows a tiny little bit of Hemba.
F: Just a little.
K: He doesn't know much.
F: All the Fathers converse in Swahili, don't they?
K: With the priests we only speak Swahili.
F: I see.
|55||K: mm/ banakuya: safari
ingine: banaona bale beko tu: banalala hivi [?shows]/ bale bantu: nani:
bagonjwangu mi niko nabo/ bon: anasimama/ anakuya: asema: natafuta kubamba
eh: nani: foto/ ao bagonjwako/ nilisimamisa pale/ ah: musimame nyie bote:
banasimama/ bote makumi tatu/ anabamba foto: batatu batatu: batatu batatu:
batatatu batatu: paka vile/ itamalizi...
F: bapères banabamba foto?
K: eeh/ banabamba foto/
K: [chuckle] njo kutuma: asema anaituma: ku nani:
F: ku bulaya?
K: bulaya asema ya kufanya cindement/
F: ya kufanya?
F: cindement? cindement/
K: mm/ cindement huyu/ hii: iko napitia hivi: hivi/
K: si: banakwendaka busiku moya: wanafanya cin: cindement bantu bamingi: banakuwa kuangaria/
F: ah: cinéma?
K: ah cinéma/
F: aah/ cinéma/
K: [to explain his pronunciation] shee tunataya cha kwetu/
K: ah cindement/ [chukles]
F: [laughs] cindement/
K: sababu wee unafwata mu ?kaimbo: ya mutu/
|K: Mm. Some priests
who were traveling came and saw the people who were lying down like this
[shows], the patients I have. So one of them stopped. He came and said I
would like to make a photo or your patients. I made them get up. All of
you, get up, I told them. They got up, all thirty of them and he took photos
of three of them at a time. It was going to be finished...
F: Priests took photographs?
K: Yes, they took photographs.
K: [chuckle] To send away. He said he would send them to...
F: To Europe?
K: (To) Europe, he said, to make cindement.
F: To make (what)?
F: Cindement? Cindement.
K: Mm. This cindement. It runs by like this.
F: No (I don't understand).
K: Isn't it when the make cindement on an evening that lots of people come to watch.
F: Ah. Cinéma (a film).
K: Yes, a film
F: (Finally I get it), a film.
K: We pronounce it our way.
K: Yes, cindement. [chuckles]
F: [laughs] Cindement.
K: Because one follows the accent of a person.
|56||F: eyo/ kumbe unasikilizana
F: na: ku baclients ingine: uko na bakristiani?
K: bakristiani bamingi/
K: eeh/ hasa ba: banamuke wa baridi: niko nabo ku nyumba/
F: muko na: nkundi moya ya kristiani baJamaa?
K: ndiyo beko naye: lakini nilikuwamo: pale naisha kuwa mwanamuke mwingine: mu Jamaa mule: magumo: alikuwa na si: wee muntu moya tu: ooh: banamuke/ njo zala/ sasa angaria ku mwisho bana: alafu/ na bale ba mu nkundi wawili wanaanza vita: niko na...?...
F: non/ ile nkundi banaita Jamaa/
K: Jamaa? banasema kwetu asema: Jamaa ya baba na mama/
F: ...?... Jamaa: muko naye?
K: beko naye/
F: si bo banakatala lawa?
K: banakatala lawa lakini hapana ile ya kupaka/ bananitafuta miye: dawa ya mizizi: beko banatafuta tu/
F: ya mizizi banatafuta?
K: eeh banakuya tu: kufwata kwangu/
F: ya kupata malawa?
K: eeh: banataka asema si nipakie/ asema mi siingizake bintu hamo/
K: ule tu nione nikufansia tu hivi: alafu: uta: kama nafansia tu: utasikia ku ndoto yako na: siwezi asema: nakata [claps]: muti ya Mu...
|F: I see. So you get
along with the Fathers.
F: And do you have Christians among your clients?
K: Many Christians.
K: Yes. Women suffering from a cold -- I have them (staying) at my house.
F: Do you have a group of Christians called Jamaa?
K: Yes, they have (such a group). I used to be a member but after I had (taken) another woman, there was trouble in the Jamaa. Ooh, they said, one man with several women, to have children. Look, in the end they -- but (there was nothing I could do about it). And two members of the group started a fight, so I had a ...?...
F: No. (What I mean is) this group they call Jamaa.82
K: The Jamaa? Back home they say Jamaa of baba and mama.
F: So you have the Jamaa.
K: They have it.
F: Are there many (members)?
K: There are many.
F: Aren't they against (your kind of) medicine?
K: They are against (magic) medicine, not the one (I) prepare. They seek me out for herbal medicine.
F: So they look for herbal medicine?
K: Yes, they come to my place to consult me.
F: To get medicines?
K: Yes. They want them (saying) could I not prepare some? However, I shouldn't put anything (magic) in (my medicine).
K: What I am doing is I see to it that I treat you. But when I do the treatment you are going to be aware of it in your dreams. What I cannot do is just cut [claps] the plant of ...?...83
|57||F: beko banasikilizana
K: banani? bababa na mama?
F: sawa wee unaona namna gani hii nkundi?
K: ts: ile nkundi ni: lakini [claps]: nitafanya namna gani? mi sisahabu si: nilikuwamo: niliona tu muzuri/ sasa hapa natoka: sione tu muzuri hapana/
F: ulikuwa: kutafuta14 miaka mingi?
K: mu: mu nkundi?
K: hapana/ nilifanya tu mwaka moya/
F: mwaka moya?
K: balinifundisha: lakini naisha kuwa: naisha kuwa na bitabu yabo: minapasula byote/ [chuckles]
F: balikufundisha juu ya kuingisha: ku nji: ku njia ya kwanza?
F: si balikufundisha ju: juu kukuingisha: ku: banasema njia: njia ya kwanza? si beko na manjia?
F: na manjia/
K: ndiyo: beko na manjia yabo/
F: na manjia ngapi?
K: minasema ni mbili/
K: ni tatu?
F: kumbe kwanza: una: unapashwa kuingia ku njia ya: kwanza/ njia ya kwanza/
F: kiisha njia ya mbili: njia ya tatu/ si vile balikufundisha vile?
K: njo vile/ [laughs] baba yetu: pa: minaisha kusahabu vyote/
F: aah oui/
K: alafu na...
K: zamani na: soixante-huit/
|F: Do they get along
with the Fathers?
K: Who, the bababa and bamama (of the Jamaa)?
K: Yes, they do.
F: What is your view of this group?
K: Ts (what shall I say?), this group is...[sentence not finished] but how am I to act? I am not forgetting that I used to be a member and that I regarded it as something good. Now that I left I don't see what is good about it.
F: Were you a follower for many years?
K: In the group?
K: No, I only did one year.
F: One year?
F: Did they teach you?
K: They taught me. I used to have their books but I tore them up, all of them. [chuckles]
F: You tore them up.
K: I tore them up.
F: Did they teach you to undergo initiation into the "first way."84
F: Didn't they teach you in order to initiate you to what they call a "way?" Into the "first way?" Don't they have (those) "ways?"
K: They do.
K: Yes, they have those "ways."
F: How many "ways" do they have?
K: I say two.
K: Is it three?
K: I see.
F: So then, to begin you must enter the "first way." The "first way."
F: After that, the "second way," the "third way." Didn't they teach you this?
K: You are right. [laughs] Oh my, I forgot everything.
F: Ah, yes.
K: But with...
F: (Was it) long ago?
K: Long ago, in '68.
|58||[pause] F: si uko:
uko na kintu ya ku: kuo: kuongeza?
K: wee njo uko ananiuliza/ kama unaniuliza...
F: ...?... tuko tunasumbulia...
F: mara ingine uko: unoaona mi nilisahabu kintu: ao unaniona sawa: ph: ananiuliza: mais: hajui: ts: muzuri: ao: ni paka wee ...?... moya unaniangaria.
K: mm/ kuko: maladi ingine: juu ya nywele iko natokatoka tu hivi/
F: nywele inatoka?
K: nywele yake inatoka eh/ naweza kufanya dawa: ile nywele: inaanza kurudia tena/ paka vile/
|[pause] F: Don't you
have anything to add?
K: You are the one who is asking questions. If you ask me...
F: ...?... we are just having a conversation.
F: Perhaps you are aware that I forgot something. Or you may see me (telling yourself) he is asking questions but he doesn't too well (pursuing what he is after). You are the one who is observing me.
K: Mm. There is another illness that affects the hair. It keeps falling out just like this.
F: The hair falls out?
K: The hair of such a person falls out, yes. I can prepare a medicine and the hair begins to grow back. Just like that.
|59||F: kama unapaka: lawa:
unakamata paka miti? ao unakamata ma: hii njo ya...
K: ni miti tu: tu maote yenye tuko tunaliya [eat] hivi: nakamata huyu: kama ni dawa: minabeba/ ao...
F: ao mara: nywele: ao?
K: kuko tu: nani: kalimi yake njo niko nabebaka/
K: eeh: aah:...
K: natosha hivi/ juu ya mule: njo muikale muzuri/ nakamata tu: hii bulongo ya hapa: ya ku nyumba: natosha: tunakuwekea/
K: mm/ na kama unaangaria hivi: kivuri yako: njo unabeba/ kama kukata nywele: mi sikukata hapana/
F: mm/ kivuri?
K: kivuri yako iko tu pale:
F: ah oui/
K: njo kuweka mule/ sababu uzima wa muntu ni kivuri/
K: hii nani: inasimama vile/ si unaona nani: yako inakwenda [gets up to demonstrate] si unaona muikale hivi: yo kama iko...
F: ah oui oui/
K: njo kivuri/
F: eh kivuli: ngiza/
K: giz: ni giza/
F: njo kivuli/
K: sawa muti iko hivi: si unaona kivuli yake inakuya?
K: njo ile unapashwa kubeba tu: kivuli yake...
F: utabeba namna gani?
K: si kubeba tu: nani: iko hivi: nabeba/ mu bulongo ya chini/
F: mu bulongo ya chini/
K: eeh/ muntu anapashwa kufa: anageuka vumbi/
K: njo vile beko nafanyaka/
F: muntu anageuka vumbi/
F: na kivudi: ina: ina:
K: inawakisha/ kama wee uko napita pale: bengine shee tunaona asema: uko tu muzima wee? kumbe ba: bale ba: babulozi baliisha kukuua zamani/ banapita hapa: upande mu: mu motokari hivi: unaingia mule mu motokari/ sasa haba baliisha kukubeba wee moya?
ni vuli yako ile balibeba/ shee tunaona muko napita/ muangarie muzungu: alikuwa napita hapa/ yee huyu ana: anakufa mu motokari ya pale: motokari iliisha kufa/
K: paka hivi/
|F: When you prepare
medicine do you only take plants? Or do you take this...
K: It's only plants, just everything that is edible. I pick up this (plant) and if it is medicinal I take with me. Or...
F: Or maybe some hair?
K: There is -- what do you call it? -- a little kalimi85 from a person. That is something I often take along.
K: Yes, what is it again...
K: I remove some. So (the client) there in his place should stay well.86 And I pick up some earth here, from the house, and take it away. (That is something) we put into (medicine).
K: Mm. And when you look at it it's your kivuri you carry away. As to cutting off hair, I don't do this.
F: Mm. Kivuri?
K: Your kivuri, it's right there.
F: Ah, yes.
K: This becomes an ingredient because the shadow is a person's life.
K: This -- what do you say? --it stands up like this. Don't you see? Yours moves (with you). Don't you see, when you sit here (the shadow) is here. [gets up to demonstrate this]
F: Ah, yes, of course.
K: That is kivuri.
F: Yes, kivuri means ngiza.87
K: It's (the same as) giza.
F: So that is kivuli.
F: L'ombre (shadow, shade).
K: That's it.
K: For instance, take a tree that stands like this, don't you see its shadow coming up?
K: That's what you need to take along, the shadow of a person.
F: (But) how are you going to carry it?
K: You don't. I carry it in the earth from the ground (where the shadow fell), that's how it is done.
F: In the earth from the ground.
K: Yes. A person must die and then turns to dust.
K: That's how it is done.
F: So, a person turns to dust.
F: And the shadow ...
K: It stays on.88 When you pass by there somewhere some of us may see you (and ask) are you alive (the way you look)? So the sorcerers have killed you long ago. They come by (and tell you) get into the car and you get inside the car. Now, was it you those people carried away? It was your shadow they took away. What we (may) see is that you pass by. Look, people, a European just passed by, the one who died in a car (accident) when his car broke down.
K: That's how it is.
|60||F: kumbe: tusumbulie
tu: mbio mbio: kiloko: juu ya: ile: mizizi: mizizi na mayani: ya: tuko naye/
F: ile: mulienda kutafuta na Madame/
F: hii ni kibombo/15
F: kibombo iko:
K: eh: ya kufanya sawa: chai/
K: inaleta: mu tumbo: kama: uko naona mubaya: ku kulya:
K: letesha hamu ya kulya/
F: na: mayani yake?
K: mayani yake: njo ile nilileta sasa/
K: asema: muti ya humu/ ule asema iko anapandia yulu/
F: aha/ ile: ile ulileta sasa: ile ni ya makali?
K: yo hii/
F: njo hii?
K: hh [inhaling sound, assent] iko nanunka paka vile/
K: iko nanunka paka vile/
F: paka vile?
F: mais: ilitoka tu juu ...?.../ hatukuwa na: ts: hatukuwa na: mm: minaona/ hatukuwa nani: ya: kutosha hii chini/
K: eeh/ sawa/
F: bon: kibombo vilevile?
K: ni kibombo paka vile/
|F: Now let's talk
quickly about the roots and leaves you have with you.89
F: The ones you went looking for with Madame.
F: This one is (called) kibombo.
F: Kibombo is (used)...
K: It is prepared as a tea.
F: A tea.
K: It brings (relief) to the stomach, if you have trouble eating.
K: It is to give you an appetite.
F: And its leaves?
K: It's the leaves I brought along (or: I administered) this time.
K: It's a plant that grows here, one that climbs upwards.
F: I see. The sample you brought along now, does this one have a sharp taste?
K: That's the one.
F: That's the one?
K: Yes, it smells like this.
K: It smell like this.
F: Like this?
F: But this came from high up ...?... We don't have -- mm, I see -- we don't have one that came from the ground.
K: Yes. That is correct.
F: Alright, that one would also be called kibombo?
K: It is called kibombo, just the same.
|61||F: mm/ [pause, picking
up another sample] tena: mubinga/
K: mubinga bafu/
F: mubinga bafu?
K: mm/ yo hii [points, unwraps]/ tuko namuletaka ya kwanza/
F: oui oui oui/ mubinga: bafu/ ni bale bafu/
K: mm: bafu: yee asema: bafu tu ya sawa mu...
F: mubinga/ [writes down] mu: binga: bafu/ donc: minaona: ni miti: ni muti moya vile?
K: ni muti tu munene hivi/
K: hh [inhaling, assent]/
F: ile tulikuwa donc: tulikuwa na: kuweka ku...
K: kuweka ku macho/
F: kutia tu ku macho/
|F: Mm. [pause, picking
up another sample] And then, mubinga.
K: Mubinga bafu.90
F: Mubinga bafu?
K: Mm. This is the one. [points, unwraps]. It's the one I brought first.
F: Yes, yes, yes. Mubinga bafu. This is bafu, (which means) "the dead."
K: Mm. The dead. It just means the dead like in...
F: Mubinga. [writes down] Mu binga bafu. So, it is a tree.
K: It is a tall tree.
F: This we had to put on...
K: Put on the eye.
F: Apply it to the eye.
|62||F: mubinga bafu/ tena:
tulikuwa na: kahunga/
K: [corrects] kahumba/
F: muko naye?
K: mm/ [searches for sample]
F: hii njo kahumba?
K: angaria: attention: maana yake tu sawa/ na huyu/ ukiangaria muzuri/ [sniffing sound]
F: miti: ...?...kintu ya kuaachana?
K: inaachana/ hii ya karibukaribu/
F: [picks up and smells the sample] mm/ ni kweli inaachana/
F: ni kweli inaachana/ na tena makanda ya: ya: inatumia:
K: natumia: ku: kunawa/
K: mm/ kunawa: kama: mutoto anasikia: iko na: sikia analala [makes a sound like crying] mu nyuma:
K: eh/ unamunawisha: [indicates the part of the body]
F: mu matako? munafanya sawa: chai?
K: hapana/ unakamata tu hii:
K: unatwanga unatwanga: bananawa hivi/ kuchanga...
F: na bunga tu?
K: eeh ya bunga/
F: hapana kuchanga na mayi?
K: eh: mayi hapana: mayi utakuwa utaweka mule/ utaweka mayi: alafu: njo kunawia/ inaachana naye [knocking noise, points to the other sample] mubinga bafu/
F: mubinga bafu?
K: eeh/ inaachana nayee pamoya [points] iko pale/
F: kahumba/ kumbe: mayani yake: inakuwa tu:
K: na wee kuangaria/
F: tena: [noise, looking for another sample, then returing to this one] bon/ ile kintu ni: lawa: tatu: muko naye/
F: inatumia tena kazi ingine? ile lawa/
K: hii? si nilikuambia: hii...
F: oui: ya: ya watoto:
K: ya batoto: hata wee muntu mukubwa: kama unazidi kulota mubaya: ku nyumba: unanawa naye/
K: kahumba eh/
F: kama unalota mubaya/
K: eeh kama unalotalota mubaya/ ule ingine: anazoea tu: kama analala: banamuvringa mushingo [makes a chocking noise]: ueeh:
K: ueeh/ ...?... yee mwenyewe lala mubaya: asema ah: bananivringa mu mushingu huyu/ babulozi ...?.../
F: na mubinga bafu?
K: kuchanga na mubinga bafu hii mayani yake/
F: ya kuchanga naye?
F: na mubinga bafu ana: ina: tumika tena kazi ingine?
K: inatumika mpaka ile/
F: paka ile/
K: iko nafukuza mashetani: njo: jina ile asema: mubinga bafu/
F: mubinga bafu/
K: ni ya kufukuza bashetani/
F: na kibombwe?
K: kibombwe ni paka: ya kunywa/
F: paka ya kunywa?
K: eeh/ na: kuweka mu macho: hii mayani yake/
F: mu macho/
|F: Mubinga bafu.
Then we had kahunga.
K: [corrects] Kahumba.91
F: Do you have it with you?
K: Mm. [searches for sample]
F: This is kahumba?
K: Look at it carefully. It looks like that one. If you look at it carefully. [sniffing sound]
F: Is it a different plant?
K: It is different. (But) one resembles it closely.
F: [picks up and smells the sample] Yes, it's true. It is different.
F: True, it's different. And then there is (this piece of) bark. It is used for...
K: It is used for washing (bathing).
F: For washing?
K: Yes, for washing. If a child feels (pain) in its behind when it sleeps and (cries likes this) [makes a sound like crying].
F: I see.
K: Yes. Then you make (the child) bathe (with this preparation). [indicates the part of the body]
F: (Bathe its) buttocks? Do you prepare an infusion (with this herb)?
K: No, you take this herb...
K: And you keep pounding it, then they use this for washing (the child) like this. Mixing...
F: (Using it) just as a powder?
K: Yes, as a powder.
F: Without mixing it with water?
K: No, you don't use water. Water you would add to this other one. You would add water but that would be used for washing.92 It is different from this [knocking noise, points to the other sample] mubinga bafu.
F: Mubinga bafu?
K: Yes, and it is also different [points] from the one over there.
F: Kahumba. So, (those are) its leaves to...
K: For you to look at.
F: To look at.
F: And then... [noise, looking for another sample, then returning to this one] Alright. This is the third medicine you have with you.
F: Does it have another use, this medicine?
K: This one? I told you it...
F: Yes, (it is used to treat) children.
K: Children. But even if you are grown up and you are plagued by bad dreams in your home93 you (can) wash yourself with it.
F: (This) kahumba.
K: Kahumba, yes.
F: When you have bad dreams.
K: Yes, when you keep having bad dreams. Certain people go to sleep and feel that they are being strangled. [makes a choking noise]
O:...?... such a person sleeps badly. They are strangling me, he says, it's the sorcerers...?...
F: (And what about) mubinga bafu?
K: The leaves of (kahumba) are mixed with mubinga bafu.
F: Mixed with (mubinga bafu)?
F: And is mubinga bafu used for something else?
K: It only works for this (problem, we talked about).
F: Only for that one.
K: It chases away evil spirits. That's what its name says, mubinga bafu.94
F: Mubinga bafu.
K: It is used to chase away evil spirits.
F: And kibombwe?
K: Kibombwe is to be taken as a tea (lit. is for drinking).
F: Only for drinking?
K: Yes. And it's leaves are for putting on the eye.
F: On the eye.
|63||F: kumbe: ingine:
acha ile tuliku: tulitaya: tunaweka mpembeni/ [noise, putting away samples
discussed] tunaisha kutaya kibombwe: voilà/ tuweke ile: kahumba:
na mubinga bafu/ sasa tuko na?
F: kile: kazi ya kivumboka?
K: kazi ya kivumboka ni: kukata hii: sawa mu: mu sombe: muntu anakulya: kama anasikia: mu tumbo iko naluma: anakulya sawa nani: sawa may: sawa nani: mmm [searches for a word]: sawa sombe/
K: unakulya/ unasikia kilulu mu tumbo: kanalia krrrrr/
K: inakimbia/ ile ya mubinga bafu/ [corrects himself] ile ya nani: ya: ya chose/ ya: ts: ya mm: nani: kivumboka/
|F: So then, another
one. But wait a moment, we got the name of this one, now we put it aside.
[noise, putting away samples discussed]. We got the name for kibombwe,
here it is. Let's put it (together with) kahumba and mubinga
bafu. And now we have?
F: What is kivumboka used for?
K: The use of kivumboka is -- it is chopped up as (you do when you prepare sombe.96 A person who suffers from stomach ache eats it like [searches for a word] -- what is it again, mm? -- sombe.
K: You eat it when you feel that you have a bug in you stomach and makes a noise like krrrrr.
K: Then it goes away quickly. That is the use of mubinga bafu [corrects himself] or rather, of -- what do you call it again? -- kivumboka.
|64||F: tena: tuko na:
[picking up next sample] na: ile/ mbaya/
K: eh: mbaya/
F: mbaya/ mbaya njo?
K: eeh/ mbaya? iko na: hii mayani yake: ni ukumate: kama uko na: natafuta kufanya kazi yako muzuri:
K: unakamata na mayi ya baraka minasema/ unaiweka/
F: mayi yake?
K: mayi ya baraka/
F: mayi ya baraka/
K: hii nasema ya kunawa naye/
K: ni hii niko nabebaka/ ubebe hii: unatia mayi ya baraka: unanawananawa: unakwenda mu kazi: inakuwa muzuri/
F: njo ku: ku: ku...
K: kutosha makoshi/
F: kuto: kotosha mikoshi:
F: kuikala ku kazi muzuri?
K: kala muzuri/
F: donc: ina: unapashwa kutwanga mbele?
K: kutwanga mbele/ kiloko/ hapana kusidi kutwanga/
F: kuweka mayi:
K: kuweka mayi: alafu hiyi: kuisha kuweka mayi: ku kuisha kunawa: unatupa mu njia/
F: njo mwisho?
K: njo mwisho ya ule/
|F: And then we have
[picking up next sample] this one, (called) mbaya.97
K: Yes, mbaya.
F: Mbaya. And mbaya is?
K: Yes. Mbaya? You take its leaves when you want to do well at work.
K: You take also holy water, as I told you, and put it (in the preparation).
F: It's water (juice)?
K: (No) holy water.
F: Holy water.
K: The one I told you is used for washing.
F: For ...
K: The one I get (from the church). You should take this (herb) and you add holy water. You keep washing yourself (with this preparation), you go to work, and things will be alright.
F: So it is to, to, to...
K: To lift curses.
F: To lift curses.
F: To be alright at work?
K: To be alright.
F: So then, you first have to pound it?
K: First pound it a little, not too much.
F: And add water.
K: And add water. But after adding water and washing with it you pour (the rest) on a road.
F: That's all (lit. that's the end)?
K: That is all about this one.
|65||F: [pick up next sample]
K: mayamba: ni ya dawa...
F: [correcting, after reading inscription on photograph] muyamba/
K: eeh/ ni ya ku: kuinama/ kama mutoto: iko nakala [?nakatala] kutembea: unainamike mutoto/
K: eeh/ kuchanga na yo: [searching for another plant/sample]
F: munachanga na nini?
K: tunachangaka na ingine: mayani ya huyu [points]/ ni nani: mizizi ya ule/
F: misizi ya?
K: ya ule/ kihitihiti/
F: kititititi? [chuckle]
F: titi/ [repeats slowly, writing it down] kihitihiti/
F: kihitihiti/ mizizi yake?
K: mizizi yake/
F: bon/ alafu maua yake ya kihitihiti?
K: maua yake?
K: maua yake haina kazi mingi hapana/ mayani/ iko kazi...
K: eeh/ ao nani: maganda yake hii...
F: makanda yake/
F: maua: hana na kazi?
K: maua haina kazi hapana/
F: zaidi zaidi: maua: minaona: hana na kazi mingi hapana/
F: paka mizizi:
K: mizizi: makanda yake:
F: makanda yake:
K: hii makanda yake: sababu unaona: mutoto anazalika: unaona iko tu na upelepele?
F: oui oui/
K: unakamata hii: mi: nani: makanda yake:
K: una: beba: unatosha [?twasha] ku mayi: unamunawisha/
K: tuko tote: tuna: itakauka/ mm/
|F: [pick up next sample]
And now mayamba?98
K: Mayamba, it is a medicine....
F: [correcting, after reading inscription on photograph] Muyamba.
K: Yes. It is used to wash the behind. When a child doesn't want to walk that's what you wash it with.
K: Yes. Mixed with that one. [searching for another plant/sample]
F: What is it you mix it with?
K: We usually mix it with something else, the leaves of this one, [points] or rather with its roots.
F: The roots of what?
K: Of that one, kihitihiti.99
F: Kititititi? [chuckle]
F: Titi. [repeats slowly, writing it down] Kihitihiti.
F: Kihitihiti. (You use) its roots?
K: It roots.
F: Alright. But what about the blossoms of kihitihiti?
K: It blossoms?
K: Its blossoms aren't of much use. The leaves, they do the work.
F: The leaves?
K: Yes, or its bark.
F: Its bark.
F: Blossoms are not of any use?
K: No, blossoms are not of any use.
F: I noticed that blossoms are not much used.
K: That's right.
F: Just the roots.
K: The roots and the bark of a plant.
F: Its bark.
K: The bark of this (is used) when you see a child being born covered with pimples?
F: Yes, yes.
K: You collect the bark of this plant.
K: You take and soak it in water. Then you use this to wash the child with.
K: All those little pimples are going to dry up. Mm.
|66||F: tena tuko na: mbili
mule: ya mugembe/ [take up next sample]
K: mu: mugembe/
K: mugembe: ni dawa ya:
F: [joking] bagembe/
K: [chuckles] ya kilulu/
F: ya kilulu?
K: eeh/ hata wee mwanaume: hata wee mwanamuke: unatosha natosha nakunywa/
F: kutosha: kutosha nani? ya:
K: kutosha ile nani: mi: mizizi yake:
K: unapalula unapalula unapalula:
K: unatosha ya kufanya chai: unakunywa/
|F: Then we have the
two samples of mugembe.100 [take up next sample]
K: Mu: mugembe.
K: Mugembe, it is medicine of...
F: [Joking] The bagembe (the gembe people101).
K: [chuckles] (A medicine) against a bug.
F: A bug?
K: Yes. Whether you are a man or a woman, it doesn't matter, you keep digging it up...
F: Digging up what?
K: Digging up its roots.
F: I see.
K: Then you keep pulling them apart.
K: You dig them up to make a tea which you drink.
|67||F: mm/ tena?
F: kazula ni/
K: kazula: ni dawa: kama uko na: tatafuta: ule uko anakuyako ku kazi:
K: bon/ kama azidi kukuuzulu sana: minafansia hii dawa: nakamata na miti ingine: nachangamo: ile kahazula: inatosha kabisa/ njo kamaana kwetu kaitwa kahazula/ ni chakwetu asema: kwa kutosha haraka/
F: kutosha haraka?
K: eeh/ hata kulikuwa mambo ya namna gani:
K: bon: una: unanawa: na unafansia unanawa: unatupa mu njia:
K: anafanya/ ule: wa ku: mwenyewe banakutendea mubaya: kama anakuuzi tu pale: kesho banamutosha mu kazi/ [chuckles]
F: kesho banamutosha mu kazi?
|F: Mm. And then?
F: Kazula is...
K: Kazula is a medicine (used) when you want to do something about that person who is after you at work.
K: Alright. When he goes to far with his attempts to oust you I prepare this medicine. I take another plant and mix it in with this kahazula and removes (the threat) at once. That's the meaning we give to when it is called kahazula. It's in our language an means "(something) to remove pressure (lit. haste).
F: Remove pressure?
K: Yes. Whatever the problem may be...
K: Alright, you wash with it. When it is prepared you wash with it and pour some one the road.
K: The person who does this (you), the one who treats you badly -- he may put pressure on you one day, the next day they will fire him from work. [chuckles]
F: They will fire him from work?
K: mm: koke/
F: [looks at photograph] aliandika:
F: koke/ koke?
K: ni: ni dawa ya shee banaume/
F: ya banaume?
K: ya banaume/
K: inaleta nguvu huyu ya chamwanaume: alafu: mwanamuke asikimbie/ yo hii/ [points] nakamata: mizizi yake na makanda yake: nainawa/
F: kumbe ile ni: kama: kama: kama mwanamuke asikimbie/
K: asikimbie/ sasa hatakimbia kama hauna nguvu ya mu nyuumba?
K: si anakimbia?
K: sema: ah niko nalala tu bule/
K: eh/ njo vile/
|F: And then?
K: Mm, koke.104
F: [looks at photograph] It's written here.
F: Koke. What about koke?
K: It's a medicine for us men.
F: For men?
K: For men.
F: It gives...
K: It give this strength, this virility (to a man) so that his women should not run away. That's the one. [points] I take its roots and bark and use it for washing.
F: So this is something to prevent a woman from running away?
K: So she doesn't run away. Is she not going to run away if there is no strength in the house?
K: Is she not going to run away?
K: Saying, oh, I am staying around for nothing.
K: Yes. That's how it is.
K: eeh/ kisembe ile: kama: si uko unaonaka bantu banatoka na hii maladi ya humu mushingo?
K: eh? inayala humu/ [points] inayala/ bon: unakamata hii: mizizi yake unachambula: unainama/ inakwenda kutosha ile/ maladi ile/ ni tule tumbegu: tuko navunjia/
F: ni kusema una: una: unapaka: ku:
K: hap: hapana/ unainama/
K: eeh: sawa: njo shindani ya kwetu/
K: ya kupakala tu/
F: ki: kuinama?
K: kuinama eeh/ kukamata mayi:
K: kuweka mu nani: mu: rigateur ya mayi/
K: eeh? unatia: alafu unakwenda ku cabinet: unakwenda ku...
F: oui/ [to myself in German] Klistier/
K: ku: lavement/
F: Klistier: lavement/
F: njo shindani ya: kwenu/
K: ile shindani ya kwetu/ [chuckles]
|F: And then?
K: Yes. About this kisembe. What you often see is that people get this illness here on the neck.
F: I see.
K: Right? It gets swollen here. [points] It gets swollen. Alright, so you take the roots of this plant, you clean them and you bend over. This going to remove that illness. It's those little seeds we crack.
F: It means that you put it on...
K: No, you bend over.
F: To bend over?
K: Yes. This is something like our traditional syringe.
K: It works with medicine you prepare.106
F: (But why) bend over?
K: Bending over, yes. To take (in) the liquid.
K: You put it in the irrigator (that works) with liquids.
K: Right? You do this and then you go to the toilet where you...
F: Yes. (Now I understand), a douche.
K: For a rinsing.
F: A douche, for rinsing.
F: That's your traditional injection.
K: This is our traditional injection. [chuckles]
|70||F: bon/ niko na kintu
ya: mo: kintu moya ya kuku: [interrupt myself when he picks up a plant]
ah: mulipata ingine? hii?
K: hii njo kibombwe inyewe/
K: nitoshe hii kibombwe?
F: non: niko na kintu moya ya ku: kukuonyesha/ [picks up an object]
F: tulipata: kwa rafiki [sound of unwrapping] mais: maana yake: hatujue: za: muzuri: hapana/
K: mm eh/ aah/ hii ni ya: [pause] na tule tumuzimu twa ngapi/
F: muko nayo?
K: shee: kwetu hatunayo hapana/ iko na baLuba/
F: iko na baLuba?
F: una: una: unafahamu jina yake?
K: nafahamu/ ni ile miz: ni ile nani? kama unatafuta kwenda ku mawindo: kwenda kuwinda ku pori: analilia paka huku/ analia: analia: analia/ ah: Mungu anamusaidie/ anakwenda kuua/ [chuckles]
K: kuua: nyama/
F: ku pori/
F: baliku: anafanya nini? ...?... sawa?
K: eeh/ iko na: iko naimba: [demonstrates, shakes calebash, making the rattling noise] iko naimba: iko na bi...?.../
K: iko nasema [chanting] ooh: baba: anatosha nyama: [chuckling] ooh baba: anatosha nyama/ hehehe [laughs]/
F: paka yee: yee mwenye: mwenye kulumbata?
K: ah yee mwenye kulumbata/ si unaona tu: na bamanyama ikoamo/ huyu ni: imbwa/
K: eeh/ si imbwa? na tunyama tukoamo/ si unaona?
K: ni ya kulia/
F: kumbe: unaona: ni: inatoka ngambo gani?
K: hii inatoka?
F: ni bantu beko ndani/ sione? [show figurines to him]
K: bantu bekoamo eeh/ eh eh: inakuwa muzee/
F: aha/ tena:...
K: [yawns] aha/ yo muzimu/
F: mm/ sawa nkisi/
K: ya ule bamampasa/
K: eeh/ kama anatafuta kuwinda: iko analia bale bamampasa: pale/
F: ile mbili ni mampasa/
K: ni mampasa eeh/
F: mm/ tena: ngoma?
K: ngoma eeh/ njo ngoma eeh/ [chuckles]
F: [picks up other figurines] kangoma ...?... nani? tena: acha nita...?... ni mampasa: twiko naye/ huyu: kama ni nani?
K: bankisi bale/
F: na huyu: vilevile?
K: ni bankisi/
F: huyu muzee?
F: na huyu?
K: ni bankisi bale/
F: si unaona?
K: eeh/ wangambo na:
F: wangambo na...?...
F: iko jina?
K: benye: ni nani: banasema: muzimu ya kabezya/
F: huyu ni muzee?
K: huyu muzee/ wabaa [evil, bad omen] tena: si iko na libala/
F: na: nani?
K: iko na libala/
K: eeh/ sawa ya papu [Paul VI] hii/ pape/
F: ah oui oui/
F: libala/ [laughs]
K: yo hii/
F: bon/ [put up another object]
K: [corrects] mbulu/
K: mbulu/ eeh/
K: ni nyama tu: mu pori: sawa nkaka/ yee humu yee banatembea mu: karibu ya mayi/
F: sawa: sawa: nani? mamba?
K: sawa mamba eeh/
F: [to myself] iguana/
F: ile: imbwa/ unaona ni:
K: imbwa eh/
F: hii nani: kama ni kintu gani:
K: ka mu: kamuntu/ [chuckles]
F: kamuntu gani/
K: katoto iko anakulya/
K: hii ni bindo/ hii ki...?... kama ni: oui/
K: hii beko napikaka hivi/
F: jina yake ni?
K: ah: bindo/
F: bindo [to myself] kithara/
K: eh: kithara?
F: sitar/ ni kama na...?... [shows another piece]
K: ...?... aah: ile njo: maana yake: kama muntu anazala mampasa/ na ile:
F: na ile kengele/
K: ah na hii kengele/
F: tena [interruption in copied recording, turning sides of cassette] ...jina ni?
F: malungu? malungu/
|F: Fine. There is
one thing I wanted to... [interrupting myself when he picks up a plant]
Ah, you have got another one. This one?
K: This the kibombwe (we already looked at).
F: I see.
K: Shall I take out this kibombwe?
F: No, but there is something to show to you. [picks up an object]
F: We got it from a friend [sound of unwrapping]. But we don't know exactly what it is for.107
K: Mm (let's see), aah, this thing [pause] with who knows how many little spirit(-figures) inside.
F: Do you (meaning: the Hemba) also have it?
K: We don't have it back home. It belongs to the Luba.
F: It belongs to the Luba?
F: Are you familiar with its name?
K: I am. It is -- what is it again? - when you plan to go on a hunt, go hunting in the bush. The hunter keeps calling out, asking God to help him. Then he goes to kill. [chuckles]
F: To kill?
K: Kill animals.
F: In the bush.
F: What does he do? Does he ...?... like this?
K: Yes. He sings. [demonstrates, shakes the calabash making a rattling noise] He sings. It has ....?...
K: And he says [chanting] Ooh, father, you who makes the animals appear. Ooh, father, you who makes the animals appear. [chuckles, then laughs]
F: So it's only the hunter (who does this)?
K: Yes, the hunter. Don't you see the animal figures here? This one is a dog.
F: A dog.
K: Yes. Is it not a dog? And there are those little animals, don't you see?
K: (This calabash) is for incantations.
F: So, from what you know, where does it come from?
K: Where this comes from?
F: There are (figurines of) people inside. Don't you see? [shows figurines to him]
K: Yes, there are people inside. Eh, this is old.
F: I see. Then....
K: [yawns] Yes, this is a spirit.
F: Mm. Like a fetish.
K: (Figurines) of twins.
K: Yes, when someone wants to go hunting that is when he calls to those twins.
F: So those two are twins.
K: They are twins, yes.
F: Mm. Then. Is it a drum?
K: A drum, yes. It's a drum, yes. [chuckles]
F: [pick up other figurines] A little drum ...?... who? Then -- wait, I'll ...?... So we have the twins. And what might this one be?
K: They are spirits.108
F: And this one also?
K: They are spirits.
F: (You see) this old one?
F: And this one?
K: They are spirits.
F: Don't you see?
K: Yes, a janus head109
F: A janus head...?...
F: Is there a name?
K: It is called the spirit of kabezya.
F: Is this an old man?
K: This one is an old man, and a bad omen. He is has a libala, doesn't he?
F: He has what?
K: He has a libala.
K: Yes, like this Pope.
F: Ah yes, yes.
F: Libala (a bald head111). [laughs]
K: That's the one.
F: Alright. [put up another object]
K: [corrects] Mbulu.
K: Mbulu, yes.
K: It's an animal, about this size [points], like a nkaka. Hereabouts they walk around near water.
F: Like, like a crocodile (a reptile)?
K: Like a crocodile, yes.
F: [to myself] An iguana.112
F: This one is a dog. You see it is...
K: A dog, yes.
F: And this, what kind of thing is it?
K: A little person. [chuckles]
F: What kind of little person?
K: A small child who is eating.
F: But what about this one?
K: This is a bindo. This ...?... yes, it is.
F: It is?
K: It is played like this.
F: It's name is?
K: Ah, bindo.
F: Bindo. [to myself] kithara.113
K: Yes. Kithara?
F: Sitar. It is like ...?... [shows another piece]
K: ...?... I see, this is -- when someone has twins, they (make music) with those....
F: With those (twin) bells?
K: Yes, with those bells.
F: Then.... [interruption in copied recording, turning sides of cassette] ... the name is?
F: Malungu? Malungu.
|71||sawa wee: haujui hii
K: ya hivi? ni mama yangu balifansiaka: ku bale ba kuwinda/ na tukwetu banafansia hii mizimu tu: tunaweka hivi ku nani: ku kahali hivi ya: ya hutu: tumanyumba: tuloko hivi/
K: njo kuweka: mizimu tatu/ basi/ na tuingine tu: tuloko tuloko: tundu/
K: kama anatafuta kwenda kuwinda: anaona kule: kama: kamuntu kengine kanaanguka: oh: anakwenda mbio/
F: ku pori?
K: eeh/ asema kuonyesha kamataka nyama: kama iko shingo alikutega: kama ni: iko na bunduki: anakwenda/ kama iko na mishale: anakwenda mbio/ ile siku utakufa nyama/
F: mm/ c'est vrais?
K: eeh/ lakini: hii inaachana na ya kwetu: hii ya baLuba/
F: hii inaachana?
F: [muttering to myself while putting away the pieces] ... anguka ya kuweka ...?... iko paka namna moya: ...?.../ na yote ni: inaatwa namna gani?
K: hii inaatwa: dawa ya nani: dawa ya kuwinda/
F: dawa ya kuwinda?
K: eeh: ya kuwinda/
F: mais: ni kibuyi?
K: eh: ni ki: si...
F: ...iko na jina yake?
F: mu: kiHemba?
K: mu kiHemba/
K: [chuckles while I put away the calebash]
|You don't know how
to work with this (calabash)?
K: This sort (of work)? It was my (grand)mother who used to do it for the hunters. And back home they make these spirit (figurines) which we put into these miniature houses.
K: Three spirits are placed there and other tiny ones put into holes.
K: When a person wants to go hunting (he looks) and when he sees that some of the tiny figurines have fallen down -- oh, then he goes right away.
F: Into the bush?
K: Yes. It shows that he will get some game. Be it that he put out a snare, that he has a gun or arrows, he leaves fast. On that day you are going to get plenty of game (lit. you will die from animals).
F: Mm. Is that true?
K: Yes. But this one is different from the one we have at home. This comes from the Luba.
F: This one is different?
F: [muttering to myself while putting away the pieces] ...?... And everything together, how is it called?
K: This is called a hunting medicine.
F: A hunting medicine?
K: Yes, a hunting medicine.
F: But, is it (called) a calabash?
K: Yes, it is a...
F: Does it have a name?
K: This one?
F: In Hemba?
K: In Hemba.
K: [chuckles while I put away the calabash]
|72||F: bon/ tulisema:
F: unachoka tena?
K: hapana kuchoka: naona muzuri: minakunywa dawa/
F: dawa ya wazungu?
K: dawa ya wazungu/ sababu ingekuwa kule kwetu: natafuta/ sasa minalalamuku bushiku na quatre heures: na tumbo inaanza kuluma/ minalamuka nakwenda ku: ku: ku WC: ah: minakwenda tu ni kuhara/
F: sasa ina?
K: sasa inaacha/
F: alafu: kwako: kule: kama uko napata maladi vile:
K: eh/ nabeba miti yangu/
F: paka miti yako?
K: miti yangu...
F: hauende ku dispensaire?
K: ah: siendake hapana/ lakini batoto: banakwendaka mara moja moja/
F: bana: bananenda?
K: mm: batoto banakwenda mara moja ku dispensaire/
F: juu ya nini?
F: si uko na lawa?
K: niko na dawa/ lakini: kama hivi sinako: ...?... kwenda ku dawa/
F: sawa mara ingine unaweza kushindwa?
K: [chuckles] kwa mutoto?
K: hii dawa tu asema ya: mu tumbo: mutoto: kufanya hivi: siwezi kushindaka mara nyingi hapana/ kama hivi ni: nilikuwa na: niko na diarhée: ni kule kwetu: natuma tu mutoto: asema: wende unibebe muti fulani/ na kule tu hivi inafungwa/ iko tena: sawa hii nani: chinine: ulinipa:
|F: Alright. We talked,
we had a long conversation.
F: Are you still tired?
K: No, I'm not, I'm alright. I drank some medicine.
F: European medicine?
K: European medicine. If this were back home I would look for some (herbal medicine). What happened is I woke up during the night, at four o'clock and my stomach began to ache. I got up and went to the toilet because I had diarrhoea.
F: Now it is (gone)?
K: Now it has let up.
F: It let up?
F: But back home, when you get sick like this...
K: Yes, then I go get my herbs.
F: Just your herbs?
K: My herbs...
F: You don't go to the dispensary?
K: Ah no, I don't go there. But the my children go there now and then.
F: They go?
K: Mm, the children sometimes go to the dispensary.
F: Why is that?
K: What (do you mean)?
F: Don't you have medicine (for them)?
K: I have medicine. But when it happens that I am out of it .... they go and get medication.
F: So sometimes you may not be able (to help)?
K: [chuckles] With the children?
K: Let's say, as far as medicine for treating a child for stomach trouble goes, it won't happen often that I fail. When you take this case where I had diarrhoea, if it had happened back home I would have sent a child saying go get me a certain herb. And that would stop (the diarrhoea) right there. Then there is this quinine you gave me.
|73||F: njo maladi/ ku
bale: bale bantu bengine mu: mu: mu mugini kule: banajua: banajua kutaya
K: banayua kutaya mamiti yote/ na ingine aliyosahabu: iko na: iko naweka tu: anawaza/ yo vile/ [pause]
F: kumbe hauna na kintu ya kunielezea?
K: mm? ah sina kintu ya kuelezea/ basi/
F: ao: ao: kuniuliza? [after looking at notes] katata mpale njo nini?
K: njo hii kichwa ya ngambo moya: ...?... na Madame/
F: nani? ile kichwa?
K: kichwa ya ngambo moya/ ilikuwa na ma: iko na Madame/
F: aah: ya ngambo moya...
F: ile maladi ya Madame ni katata mpale?
K: eeh: katata mpale eh/
F: katata mpale?
K: [give me a sample to look at] mpale ni hii/
F: aah/ aksanti sana/ muko naye mu mugini?
K: maladi? beko naye/
|F: So much about illness.
The people back in the village, can they name all the herbs?
K: They can name all the herbs. There may be one or the other that a person forgot. Then he puts (the herb) there and thinks. That's how it is. [pause]
F: So there is nothing more you want to explain to me?
K: Mm? Ah, I don't have anything to explain. It was enough.
F: Or to ask me? [after looking at notes] (Here is another question:) What is katata mpale.
K: This is when your head aches on one side, ...?... what Madame had.
F: Who? What about this head?
K: A one-sided head (ache). This is what Madame had.
F: I see, one-sided...
F: This illness Madame has is called katata mpale?
K: Yes, katata mpale.
F: Katata mpale?
K: [gives me a sample to look at] This is mpale.
F: I see. Thank you very much. Do you have it in the village?
K: That illness? People have it.114
|74||F: sasa: uko tena
na maclients: kule: tena: uta nini: uta nini: utarudia utaenda ku Musoshi?
K: Musoshi nitakwenda mu kazi mbili: kesho/
F: mukazi mbili: kesho/
F: balikuita kule?
F: banani: ba: baclients?
K: baclients eeh/ natafuta kufanya tu kwenda: nilale siku moya ao mpili: naanza kurudia/ safari inakuwa karibu natafuta kwenda: nakaangarie ule wa kuzala mampasa/
K: he [chuckles]/
F: mutakuwa na fête?
K: tuko na fête ya kweli/ alafu beko nalala bo tu: ku nyumba/
F: paka sasa?
K: eeh/ sababu ya furaha/ ya batoto/
F: banapashwa kulala mu nyumba: bébés?
K: ndiyo: mama yabo...
K: juma mbili: juma mbili/
F: juma mbili/ kiisha banatosha?
K: eeh: banatosha/ alafu: miye mwenyewe: kama mingaliki ikoako: saa inaisha kutosha: nafanya bile byote/
K: nafanyaka ile mampasa/ eeh/ kutengeneza natengeneza: anatoka/
|So now you have still
clients (who are waiting for you) at Musoshi. Will you go back there?
K: To Musoshi I go on Monday, tomorrow.
F: Monday, tomorrow.
F: Did they call for your there?
K: They called for me.
F: Who? Clients?
K: Clients, yes. What I am planning to do is go there, stay for a day or two, and then come back. Soon I want to travel and look after this person who had twins.
K: He. [chuckles]
F: Are you going to have a celebration?
K: We'll have a real celebration. But (right) now they are staying at home.
F: Is this right now?
K: Yes. (We will celebrate) because there is joy about the children.
F: Must the babies stay inside the house?
K: Yes, (with) their mother...
F: How long?
K: Two weeks. Two weeks.
F: Two weeks. Then they are brought out?
K: Yes, they bring them out. But if I myself happen to be there when the time comes to bring them out I do everything.
F: I do what needs to be arranged for (the mother of) twins, yes. Then she comes out.
|75||F: ku lawa yako: unatumia
K: natumia pemba/
F: pemba ni?
F: oui mais: ts: maana yake?
K: maana yake: ni: kitu: iko mweupe: unapenda ni bweupe/ njo unaweka/ kama iko haikupendenze pemba: unakuwa hakuna lazima: ya pemba/
F: sawa ya ile maladie ulitaya?
K: katata mpale?
K: haipendeze pemba hapana/
F: hapana/ maladi gani: ina: inapendeza pemba?
K: hii: kama uko na: toka na ile: mikishi ile: unas: pashwa kula pemba/ ile ya...
K: eeh/ ile ya: kama unatokaka asema: anatoka na ?bitemo/
K: natoka na ule bugembe: natoka na: hii: bumbudi: unapashwa ku: kutumia pemba/
F: banatumia namna gani? banaweka: banapaka?
|F: Do you use pemba,
white clay, in your medicines?
F: You use it?
K: I use pemba.
F: What is pemba?
F: Yes, but what is it for?
K: It is for -- it is something that is white in case you like whiteness. Then you put it (in a medicine). If it is something that does not go with pemba then you don't need pemba.
F: For instance that illness you named.
K: Katata mpale (one-sided head ache, migraine)?
K: That one doesn't like pemba.
F: It doesn't. Which illness requires pemba?
K: About this -- if you perform with spirits then you have to eat pemba.
K: Yes. The ones you perform with. Let's say someone performs with ?bitemo...
K: Or with this bugembe, or this bumbudi, then you have to use pemba.115
F: How do they use it? In a preparation (lit. they prepare)?
K: In a preparation.
|76||F: tena si: si u:
nani: mama: mwili yake: ana: anapashwa kupaka sawa...
K: oh ile: ile njo anazala mampasa/
K: eeh: ya ma sampasa: njo inyewe/ bataumiayo tu kuimia tu mu yote vile/
F: pake wee?
K: ah: mi kama nakwenda: bananikimbiaka/ [chuckles]
F: banaku: banakuongopa?
K: aah bananiongopa/
K: eeh/ mi: banakuya minasema hapana/ mi mwenyewe haitapakala: nipakale tu/
F: juu ya kuonyesha: haonake/
K: eeh/ hapana hii ya ku: banakamataka tu pemba ao nani: maivu/
K: eeh/ ya mu moto ile: banapikiaka: banakamata banakumwangia tu bankumwangia/
K: sababu ya furaha/
F: furaha/ mutakunywa mutakunywa:
K: ooh: ovyo/ [laughs]
F: [laughs] mutakunywa: mutaua mbuzi:
K: tutauz: tutaua mbuzi: ao mankuku tano:
K: bantu banakunywa pombe: banafurahi/
F: bana: kule: kule kwenu: munapata pombe gani ku: paka pombe:
K: ya mungazi/
F: ya mungazi?
K: mungazi ya: unayua?
K: eh: njo...
F: na: nani: munakulyaka makasa?
K: ma: ile ya m: ya nani: ya mangombe? [he understood kasa, feet, in Tshiluba]
F: ile ya: iko na buchungu/
F: kama una: unakunywa:
F: si munakulya:
K: ile ya buchungu?
K: eeh/ tuko naye/
F: iko lawa vile?
K: iko lawa/ juu ya kuepesha mu tumbo mwa epeshi/ sababu sikamate ile pombe: sikamate ya ku...?...
F: njo kama unakulya unasikia:
K: unasika muzuri/
F: bon/ aksanti/ tuna: tutaita na: sasa Madame: mais...[shut off recorder]
|76. F: And must the
mother not apply something to her body?
K: Oh (you mean) the one who gave birth to twins.
K: Yes, the one who had twins, that's the one. They cover her with incisions all over.
F: What about yourself?
K: Ah, when I go there they keep running away. [chuckles]
F: Are the afraid of you?
K: Ah, they are afraid of me.
F: All of them?
K: Yes. As far as I am concerned, when they come I just say no, no one is going to prepare a thing, I'll do it.
F: In order to show that you don't see?116
K: Yes. It's this thing to -- they usually take pemba or ashes.
K: Yes. From the cooking fire. They take it and cover you with it.
F: I see.
K: Because of the joy.
F: The joy. And you'll drink, and drink.
K: Ooh, too much. [laughs]
F: [laughs] You are going to drink, you'll kill a goat.
K: We'll kill a goat or five chicken.
K: People drink pombe (maize or millet beer) and have enjoy themselves.
F: Back home there, what kind of fermented drink do you get, only pombe?
K: Palm wine.
F: Palm wine?
K: Palm wine, you know it?
K: Yes, this is...
F: And do you eat makasa, cola nuts?
K: Ma-- you mean cow's feet?117
F: The ones that have a bitter taste.
K: Yes, we do.
F: (You eat them) when you drink.
F: Don't you eat (cola nuts).
K: Those that have a bitter taste?
K: Yes, we have them.
F: Are they also a medicine?
K: It's a medicine. Good for digestion. Because I should not take beer, I should not...?...
F: So, when you eat them you feel...
K: You feel well.
F: Fine. Thank you. We'll call Madame now, but... [shut off recorder]
Kutupia is current
in Katanga Swahili for "jetter un mauvais sort", "cast
a bad spell" (Achille Mutombo, personal communication).
2 This is Kahenga's way of using the conditional form wakienda, "if, or in case, they go".
3 A note on eh vs. eeh (one syllable/ two syllables): two kinds of assent, the first just barely, the second firm to emphatic; but both in contrast to mm and ndiyo. Mm may express assent, most often it is just a signal of presence; ndiyo is used when an explicit affirmation is required.
4 Probably not the plural of dawa but meaning "those who have/fabricate dawa" (a collective).
5 Kinatuliza, "it settles down"; the final -na I hear may be just an errant particle (not a reciprocal form).
6 Lit. "pay attention (asa), it's work." Sounds like a calque on a colloquial French idiom used to emphasize a statement: "attention!"
7 This is the local term for gonorrhoea, from coloquial French "chaude pisse".
8 Notice the lu- concordance here.
9 A sound made by expelling air, like a cough but in a high voice, as if preparing for the falsetto Kahenga uses in the call to summon of the spirit.
10 See about name as essence (of plants, for instance), van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 827.
11 Buleti, from French "boulette", the local term for meatball.
12 The locative here refers to the expression Kahenga used in Hemba: chibalo, "the emplacement of a house", see van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:45 under kibalo.
13 There is no kaluku; it should be kaburi, "cemetery", as Kahenga guesses from the context and, a little later, corrects.
14 Kutafuta, "to search", was an error (though this was how Jamaa members characterized themselves: mwenye kutafuta, "searchers"). I meant kufwata, "to follow".
15 Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:80 have "ki-bombwe...acacia (arbre de 12 à 15 mètres); syn. mu-unga."
16 When we sat down for the recording we had samples of medicines before us. We began to talk about them but then I decided to put this off for later and start with questions about Kahenga's work.
17 The term in the Katanga Swahili text is muti, plur. miti. In the most general sense it signifies a tree, or a part thereof. In this conversation it refers to plants or herbal medicine. Kahenga is a munganga ya miti, "a herbalist".
18 Who is "this one?" I don't recall any other person (aside from Ilona Szombati who was present part of the time) being with us when the recording was made; the context suggests that Kahenga meant the young man whom he had brought as his assistant when he "closed" our house, see below.
19 There were 100 Makuta to 1 Zaire. Makuta, replacing franga, was often used as a general term for money.
20 This is my best guess at a translation. Lenselaer 1983:306 has mkaba as "Kingwana" synonym of East Coast Swahili (ECS) mpishi, "belt".
21 The third person singular would mean that the reference is to the sorcerer, unless the speaker were to use a pidgin feature, conflating first, second, and third person, which Kahenga is not likely to do. The context suggests that he refers to the "protective magic" he himself practices.
22 The phrase in the original, ya sasa, lit. "of now", could be translated as "modern." Kahenga responds with a locative: hapa, specifying the place (here) rather then the time (now), he does not have clients among the big shots.
23 Notice the second person in the Swahili expression hamusikilizane. This can be equivalent to expressions like "you know" not meaning "you know" but "one knows". It could also be a subtle way of including me among the bakubwa, which I translated here as "the big people" (with a political connotation; it can also refer persons older than the speaker).
24 The Swahili text has bizimba, see Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:824: human or animal substance used to prepare a bwanga, the Luba equivalent of Katanga Swahili dawa or lawa, "medicine" or "charm". "Les bizimba constituent l'élément, l'ingrédient essentiel, le produit 'magique' du bwanga," a Luba term sometimes also used in Katanga Swahili (the dictionary here refers to Tempels's "Philosophie bantoue...p.58-59"). The distinction that seems important to Kahenga is one between animals and plants as resources of healing.
25 The term is damu, usually meaning "blood," in Katanga Swahili also used for semen (A. Mutombo).
26 Two terms make translating this sentence difficult: baa, a ECS word I never heard in Lubumbashi, means "bad luck" and what I transcribe as kulumaya, a form of kuluma, "to bite or hurt". I take the statement to refer to a problem Kahenga was consulted for though it is not clear what it was.
27 Because of the context -- we were exploring different cases brought to him -- my first understanding of this passage was that Kahenga was telling me about working "protective magic" for a gang of car thieves. But in the translation I had to decide that he was simply called upon to treat the injury that one of the thieves had sustained when he drove the vehicle into a wall.
28 Term of reference for the (European) lady of the house, I. Szombati; left untranslated.
29 This was Mwenze Kibwanga, a Lubumbashi painter of international fame. A little earlier, Kahenga referred to him as baba, a term of respect, seldom used for non-Africans.
30 The original has a verb I hear as kubaolesha, the Katanga form of ECS oleza, "straighten, make even, correct", lit."flatten the belly for the them (kubaolesha)"? The plural would then refer to the man's family who could claim the offspring.
31 The Swahili term maungo can mean both, joints and limbs. I assumed he meant the former. I make Kahenga repeat the term and now translate it as "limbs" (because joints don't "get thin").
32 In this case the repetition and paraphrasing is caused by Kahenga's (correct) assumption that I did not know the meaning of the Swahili term (b)ukoma, "leprosy".
33 The Swahili text has alipikia, "he cooked". In Katanga Swahili the tense-marker li may occasionally be used for ki, giving the verb the conditional meaning for which I opt in this translation.
34 Here I translate kabila as race because in my mind "white" marks a racial difference. But it should be noted that, to my knowledge, an unambiguous term for race does not exist in Katanga Swahili (even the French loan word race would remain as ambiguous as it is in the source language). The "usual" translation of kabila would be "tribe", perhaps "ethnic group", neither of which has a clear meaning.
35 The Swahili text has the verb kupona, "to get well", which is normally intransitive but, as far as I remember, can occasionally be used instead of kuponesha, "to heal". Pona is ECS -poa with intervocalic -n- and the basic meaning is "to get cool".
36 The transcript is fragmentary but I remember that Kahenga indicated with gestures that the charm would immobilize the thief.
37 The brief exchange that follows was prompted by Kahenga using the mu- prefix for mountain (should be ki-), probably in concordance with, or as an alliteration to, moya.
38 Kahenga says kwenu, "in your place", which doesn't make sense. Probably a mistake.
39 There is a conflict here between a descriptive term I am after, nkambo, and the term of address Kahenga uses, mama. He sticks to the latter throughout our conversation.
40 The Swahili expression kusemasema can mean "to speak a lot" or "to do nothing but talk". But in this context it has a meaning that oscillates between 'revelatory speech' and the equivalent of German "besprechen', used for curing an illness by pronouncing magic formulae.
41 The "aaah" expresses recognition: At that moment (I remember now) I recalled the term bumbudi from ethnographic readings.
42 I checked van Avermaet and Mbuya for these terms and found nothing corresponding in kiLuba to bugembe, butembo, or nyambe. Bulungu signifies the military (an association of warriors?), see 1954:389. On bumbudi see "m-budyè...bumbudyè, secte de danseurs" (ibid. 86).
43 I question what he says now because it seems to contradict what he asserted earlier: that his grandmother worked alone. There would be no contradiction if the members of a dance association work individually when they perform healing rituals.
44 To avoid contradiction in the following I translate the term dawa as either "charm" or "medicine". It should be kept in mind however, that in local thought the two meanings (and practices) are interrelated. Later Kahenga suggests that both the healer and the sorcerer seek support from the spirits of the dead. When I press the issue and ask him whether he does sorcery he appears evasive. He neither confirms nor denies but, given the semantic ambiguity of "the work of dawa", he is evasive for conceptual rather than moral reasons.
45 Who dies? The perpetrator? I never took this literally; otherwise I would not have commissioned the ritual of house-closing. Or would I have? "Recognizing" "magic" ethnographically -- accepting that it works if or when it works -- involves accepting the possibility that it could be lethal. All I thought about at the time was to get protection.
46 The translation of this and the preceding paragraph is but an informed guess at its meaning. What is clear, though, is that the example of the cat serves Kahenga to state once again the difference between the work of healer and that of a sorcerer.
47 Kahenga says anaugusa, which I take to be his pronunciation of ECS -uguza, "treat a sick person".
48 Two brothers Munongo were prominent in Katanga politics, Godefroid and Antoine. Kahenga rejects the first name I suggest but does not correct me.
49 This is how I translate the collective for of nkambo, mankambo.
50 I am unable to figure out the relation. If the woman who gave him the medicine was his grandmother then the person we talk about would be Kahenga's cousin. But earlier he said that his grandmother had only one child, Kahenga's mother.
51 In this paragraph (but also elsewhere) Kahenga uses the ba- prefix which marks the third person plural. This gets confusing but reflects common usage and, as far as I know, awaits analysis by specialists. I take it to be an off-hand reference in a context were a more exact designation of actors (he, I, they, we) can remain implicit.
52 The term muzungu, which I translate here as "European", actually applies to every person who does not belong to the category bantu, "people "indigenous" to Africa"; it can include Asians and Americans, including African Americans.
53 The recording was made not long before our stay in Zaire ended, at about the same time I taped my conversations with Tshibumba.
54 In the original Kahenga puts this in the third person, lit. "the one who shows... how much does he ask for?"
55 Since Kahenga began with it we now look at the herbs he collected with Ilona Szombati. We had specimens and photographs before us.
56 See later in the Swahili text where it turns out to be kibongwe. It appears as "KIBONGA (?)", a kind of acacia, on a list of identifications provided by Prof. F. Malaisse, a colleague at the university in Lubumbashi. An infusion prepared from the roots was the medication for I. Szombati's headaches.
57 I was problably thinking of E. Vincke, a physician and colleague at the anthropology department in Lubumbashi, who was interested in "ethnobotany," one of the beginnings of medical anthropology.
58 I was surprised that his (grand)mother would live in Moba which I knew as the "authentic" name for a fairly important town formerly called, not Baudouinville, as I mistakenly suggest, but Albertville, as Kahenga corrects me.
59 "Region" and "zone" were administrative units at the time. I looked up Kilubi; it is a village near Sola.
60 When Christian first names had to be dropped on Mobutu's orders people often continued to use them, prefixed by an "ex-".
61 The reason why this sounds clumsy it that I was stalling, trying to get to the next question, while I shuffle through notes (audible on tape) I had taken when Kahenga did the house-closing.
62 Part of the recording is almost inaudible. What I hear is mgemo, ECS for "method of making incision when tapping a palm tree", hence the attempt to translate this as "marking a place" for the holes to be dug.
63 See on this footnote 24.
64 About he term kuchamukia, lit. "to be spiteful", see Lenselaer 1983:57.
65 The term used in the Swahili text is kichavuchavu, from chavu, "dirty, impure". A. Mutombo thinks it is an expression referring to sorcery. But the context suggests that it should be translated a "loin cloth", or "cache-sexe", in French.
66 In Swahili, Kahenga uses kuzibia instead of the expected kufunga. The image is one of patching up holes or leaks rather than of closing or locking up. Also, the following sentence suggests that prayer is to give "strength" to the inhabitants rather than to the house or its enclosure. -- Notice that he does not respond in Hemba, as I had prompted him to do, but in Swahili (multilinguals often "forget" which language they are speaking at a given moment).
67 Memory fails me at this point. The exchange shows that I must have understood what Kahenga told me when we talked but the exact meaning of this passage is impossible to get from the transcript.
68 Kahenga is amused that I bring vidye into our discussion. In Luba it signifies both God and great spirits (Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:783-86).
69 I was watching the tape that needed to be turned soon.
70 Nkuvu is the transcription I opted for in the Swahili text but it could also be kuvu or kuvo. Also, it may be the name of a person, a chief who "owns" the country.
71 The term Kahenga uses and pronounces as masisi could be a variant of mizizi, "roots".
72 This may refer to what he did before he started the ritual: he rubbed a substance (clay or ashes) on my forehead.
73 The expression Kahenga uses is explained in Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:827 "nettoyer en frottant le derrière après avoir été à la selle...-i-zinda (réfl.) se nettoyer... Sense dérivé:...se fermer l'accès auprès de qqn." -- I found the passage in Hemba that follows too difficult to transcribe and when Kahenga switches back to Swahili it is not clear what anakuwa kubaya means.
74 The Swahili text has anamukaka, probably a mistake for inamukaka, from ECS -kaga, "protect by charm, put a charm on". Another example of the complicated logic that operates when magic is concerned: the charm may be protective and aggressive at the same time.
75 This attempt at translation is incomplete. One of Kahenga's responses (which I transcribed as panier ya kuku...kyu lu...) I just don't understand. I have not recollection of this nor is it clear to me now what I meant when I said "let's look at it first."
76 Thinking about another question, I start asking about miti, herbs or plants, when I remember something from the house-closing.
77 I am reacting to mukini, the word Kahenga uses here. In a narrow sense it means village as opposed to town. But it is also the general term for a "settled place." There is, as far as I know, no Swahili expression that distinguishes a village and a town (when I use mu tauni elsewhere in our conversation, this is mining company jargon; it refers to urban labor settlements). To refer to the city/town one would use the French loan ville. The contrast is further complicated by the local use of cité which distinguishes "native quarters" (in colonial times officially called cité indigène or centre extra-coutumier) and squatters' towns (usually with a name added as, for instance, cité Caroline in Kolwezi) from ville, the core town, in colonial times reserved for Europeans and their African servants. This semantic complexity reflects a socio-cultural continuum between village and town (tradition and modernity) that Kahenga himself embodies.
78 Where is huku kwetu, as Kahenga puts it in Swahili? He is not talking about a hypothetical trip to his village. When I call on his services it means that I "come to them" -- figuratively, or literally/ritually. In the prayer he cites he speaks for the ancestors he is praying to.
79 Why does he say sabotage (rather than something like "sin")? Why a loan word signifying a criminal or political act in this religious context?
80 To me the expression Kahenga uses, juma moya, sounds confusing. In local Swahili juma means "week" or "Sunday;" moya appears in (siku) mukazi moya, Monday.
81 I don't remember ever hearing the phrase used here: nafanya kinwywa, lit. "I make mouth or language".
82 At this point I had doubts (unfounded, as I can see now) whether it was clear that we were talking about the Jamaa movement I had studied earlier and not about jamaa, the local term for family.
83 Difficulties of transcription and translation make this passage almost incomprehensible. It does contain an important piece of information (the remark on dreaming) which, unfortunately we did not pursue.
84 This is a Jamaa term for the first of three degrees of initiation. I used it at the time also to test Kahenga about his membership in the movement. As the following shows he no longer remembered detail.
85 Left untranslated to indicate that its meaning was not clear to me right away. The same goes for kivuri below.
86 The reference is not clear. It may also mean something like: "I put it in this place so that it is preserved."
87 I now understand kivuri (ECS kivuli) and come up with a synonym in Swahili, (n)giza, and a gloss in French.
88 A guess at the meaning of inawakisha: The verb -waka, lit. "to light or ignite", is used of a motor that is running. But why the causative form wakisha?
89 The situation was that I read names from notes made earlier and Kahenga selected the plant from the collection he and I. Szombati brought back from the bush. These samples were also photographed and later identified by a colleague at the university in Lubumbashi, Prof. F. Malaisse.-- Once again, with the samples before us communication is largely indexical and putting this interaction into words -- or more exactly: translating the transcript discursively -- is problematic.
90 One photograph. No botanical identification.
91 Two photographs (taken by I. Szombati, all black and white).
92 This is not clear, unless Kahenga uses kunawa both for "washing/bathing" and for "rubbing in" (as one would do with a powder not dissolved in water).
93 Here and a little earlier Kahenga locates the suffering to be treated ku nyumba, "in/at the house/home". Why?
94 The phrase means literally "(the herb) that prevails against the dead," whereby bafu takes on the meaning of mizimu, "spirits", such that it can include also shetani, "bad spirits". On the Luba verb -binga see Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:72-73.
95 One photograph. Possibly the phrase should be read as kivu=kivo, "abundance", and mboka, food that goes with the staple bukari (ECS ugali). But would the description of the condition to be treated show up as the name of the plant used for treatment?
96 Sombe, chopped manioc leaves cooked with onions and dried fish, is the usual vegetable accompaniment of bukari (ECS ugali).
97 Two photographs.
98 Two photographs (marked muyamba).
99 One photograph.
100 Four photographs.
101 A rather lame attempt at punning. The singular prefix mu- occurs in two noun-classes: with the plural mi- it is appropriate for plants and spirits, with ba- it classes people.
102 One photograph.
103 This is one of several instances where I do not pronounce the term he gives correctly and he then -- out of politeness? -- repeats the incorrect pronunciation (usually to correct it later).
104 Two photographs.
105 Two photographs, not clearly marked.
106 Lit. (an injection) of something prepared. I think this is to contrast the treatment "back home" with modern injections.
107 I show him what I take to be a diviner's instrument: a medium-sized calabash, decorated, with objects inside.
108 Kahenga uses the Luba word; for its complex meaning see Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:258-60.
109 What I hear on the recording is wangambo, lit. people with sides. From what I remember it could have been a two-faced figurine.
110 On kabezya, derived from a verb meaning "to guard", and as a divine attribute, Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:65.
111 I did not know the word libala until the reference to the Pope (Paul VI, at the time) made me guess that it means "baldness". A. Mutombo confirms this. Possibly it is a variant of ECS upara or upaa, "baldness."
112 My guess was correct, see mbulu in Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:91. The animal Kahenga compares it to, in size, is nkaka, armadillo, ibid. 216.
113 A harp-like instrument. The Greek term was the first to come to my mind.
114 Through this part of the conversation one can hear Kahenga sniffling; the doctor is sick.
115 See paragraph 34 about these spirits and the societies associated with them.
116 The meaning of this question is no longer clear to me.
117 Kahenga understood kasa, "(cow's) feet" in Tshiluba (A. Mutombo).
Alphonse. (1983). Dictionnaire Swahili-Français. Paris: Karthala.
Tempels, Placide. (1945). La philosophie bantoue (trad. du Néérlandais par A. Rubbens). Elisabethville : Lovania. [2ième édition, 1948, Paris, Présence Africaine].
Van Avermaet, E. and B. Mbuya. (1954). Dictionnaire Kiluba-Français. Tervuren: Musée Royal du Congo Belge.
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