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ISSN: 1570-0178

Volume 14, Issue 2 (19 April 2013)




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The Jamaa Files

transcribed, translated, and commented by

Johannes Fabian

University of Amsterdam

e-mail: johfabian  [at]



IntroductionText OneText TwoText ThreeText Four Text Five


Text One

A conversation with leaders of Jamaa Takatifu Katolika, Nkondo Sébastien, Thérèse Kapinga, and Kamanga Simon, recorded 11. 5. 1985 in Lubumbashi

Notes for May 11, written on May 12, 1985
Saturday afternoon ...around 5pm I arrive at Baba Seba's. He awaits me on a little terrace, together with Kamanga Simon, "sécrétaire yetu" [our secretary]. We sit down, Mama Thérèse joins us after a little while. From the beginning, the atmosphere is relaxed but somewhat cautious. I still have no idea of what I am going to hear later and my questioning probes for conflict, signs of repression, etc. M. Thérèse, who is less cautious than the others, nods or gives brief signs of affirmation to questions relating to control/repression of the Jamaa.
In the beginning our conversation meanders through many themes and anecdotes/reminiscences. For instance, we talk about Charismatics to whom the Jamaa seems to have lost some prominent members. But I get the feeling that the relation [to the Charismatic Renewal] is not as hostile as to the Legio Mariae. As the facts accumulate I ask whether they mind if I take some notes. I also notice that both babas have books and papers with them and they are impatient to get down to the "organization" [of the Jamaa]. At first I took the title sécrétaire as a figure of speech. A remark of mine to that effect brings up the astounding change in matters Jamaa that happened right after my last departure as a result of the measures taken in 1974.
We proceed as follows: Baba Simon, assisted by Baba Seba, gives me a run down on the new official organizational structure; I take notes (which see). We then return to these notes and record additional information (see recording #1 [Text 1]). All this outside on the terrace with a brief period inside when a "stray" rain falls out of season. Some first impressions:
1. [Archbishop] Kabanga has succeeded, as a condition of the continued existence of the Jamaa in the church, to impose a thoroughly centralized organization.
2. At a first glance, all activities are now hierarchical, they follow a rigid temporal structure and schedule, the formerly informal authority (based on uzazi [spiritual descent by initiation] of leading members has been coopted into a "central committee," i.e. an appointed ruling body that bears more than incidental resemblance to the organization of the party [Mobutu's MPR].
3. This was done by making ingenious use of older structures, such as formalizing the power of babas and mamas of njia ya tatu [third degree of initiation]. Although initiation shows up nowhere in the account I am given it must still exist as a prerequisite. The activities on the lowest level – the twice weekly reunions [of local groups] are allowed to continue.
Some meta-observations:
1. The most striking change is that the old strictures on communication are not operative in this meeting: no attempt to define the event by means of the greeting formula, prayer, or a recitation of doctrine as mafundisho [teaching] or mashaurio [counseling].
2. The question of trust in me (in the field of tension between Jamaa and clergy) is, as it were, moot or suspended by the possibility to resort to fixed structure, written regulations, and documents. There is now a neutral ground on which loyalty, trust, or even the prospect of recruiting [me], no longer count.


Swahili text and English translation

1. ...
F: quand-même tutaweza kuanza naye/
N: mm/
F: wende tu: wende tu/
N: wende baba/
F: mi niko na kaulizo:
N: mm/
F: na kuchanga:
N: mm/
F: kuachanachana/ bon/ donc: mwanzo: sa: ilikuwa sawa mu soixante-sept: soixante: ah: non/ septante-cinq: septante-six/
N: ndiyo/
F: njo: mulianza na ile kazi ya organization/
N: ndiyo/
F: donc: sawa vile ulisema: mbele mulikuwa na mawazo ya ku: kuita comité central: lakini [chuckles]
N: pale comité central ya: gouvernement inatokea: ya: kwa kuepuka fujo:
F: oui/
N: tuli: kamata: mupango ya kuigeuza iwe conseil central/
F: donc: conseil central/
N: sh: shauri: ya Jamaa/
F: donc/ si vile/
N: eheh/
F: kumbe: tuli: ona: composition yake/ sawa vile: nani: ni eh: nani ni membre ya conseil central/
N: ndiyo/
F: munaanza de: mbele: délégué épiscopal/ njo:
N: Révérend Père Paul:
F: Gi:
N: Gilardeau/
F: juu ya nini Père Paul? juu ya: juu:
N: njo kusema hii conseil: ni monseigneur archévêque yee mwenyewe: njo aliweka/ aliweka: publiquement mu basilique: wa: oh: ya Sainte Marie ya zone Kenya:
F: mm/
N: wakati aliprésenter kitabu cha mafundisho ya Jamaa: ku communeautés: eeh: ecclésiales yote ya diocèse muzima/
F: mm/
N: bote baliyala kule: baprêtres: baréligieux réligieuses... kila: kila: kila paroisse iko na kitabu vile? kila: kila muntu wa Jamaa?
N: kila baba na mama: iko naye/ balinunua/ surtout banjia tatu/
F: ahah/
N: kila padri: balileta mu kila paroisse:
F: mm/
N: mm: juu ya kuweza kufwata mafundisho/
F: c'est vrai?
N: sasa monseigneur: yee mwenyewe alisoma missa na bapadri bote: mbele ya bakristu bote: alisema ya kama tangu leo: nkundi ya Jamaa: inajulikana mu diocèse yangu: ni nkundi ya eklesia katolika: mi minatoka ku maternité: namuzaa mutoto mupya: jina yake: ni Jamaa: alionesha kitabu/
F: mm/
N: na alisema tangu leo: minaweka comité yangu ya kuweza: kuendelesha: hii nkundi ya Jamaa: na: kutengeneza mambo yote/
F: mm/
N: njo kule kulikuwa Père Paul: mbele alileta: Père Paul: Baba Marcel Ndala: Baba Sébastien Nkondo:
F: c'est ça/
N: Baba Damien Kapenda: na Baba Raymond Kongolo/
F: Kongolo oui/
N: kwa kuwa balikuwa kidogo: bali: kiisha yake: juu ya kuendelesha makazi ilikuwa mingi: njo bali: balienepesha: hii conseil pa kuongeza bamembres bengine/
F: mm/
N: Baba Raymond Kongolo: yee alikwenda Kongolo mu dioèse yake:
F: eheh/
N: ni mule iko: Baba Marcel Ndala: iko: ku Likasi/
F: ku Likasi/
N: mm/
F: sasa ule Père Paul: alikuwa: ni mwa: minatafuta: juu ya nini askofu: juu ya nini askofu ali: aliweka Baba Paul: hapana ingine?
Baba Paul alikuwa kujua mambo ya Jamaa? alikuwa sawa: ami ya Jamaa ao? rafiki ya Jamaa?
N: hapana/ Père Paul: haukuwe mu Jamaa: haukuwe nafwata Jamaa ao contre lakini...
F: ...hapana?
N: hapana/ ilikuwa ni sh: eh: uchaguzi: yake: askofu yee mwenyewe/
F: eheh/ mm/ minaona/
N: mm/
F: mm/ bon/ tena: eh: kufika sasa munaendelea paka na Paul Gilardeau?
N: ndiyo/ mpaka sasa/
F: iko mu Lubumbashi sasa?
N: ndiyo iko mu Lubumbashi: mbele alikuwa curé wa paroisse Sainte Bernadette: mu Katuba Kananga:
F: eheh/
N: hapa sasa iko curé wa paroisse Saint Charles Lwanga mu Katuba/
F: mu Katuba/
N: mu Katuba/ na iko chargé ya catéchèse: mu secteur ya Katuba/
F: eeh: minaona/
N: mm/

1. ...[1]
F: Anyway, we can start with (the recording).
N: Mm.
F: Just get going.
N: Get going, baba/
F: I have a little question.
N: Mm.
F: (Actually) several.[2]
N: Mm.
F: Several different (questions). Alright. So, (let's start at) the beginning. It was in '67, '60, ah, no, in '75, '76.
N: Yes.
F: That was when you began with this project of organization.
N: Yes.
F: So, as you said, first you had the idea to call together a comité central but... [chuckles]
N: At the time, it turned out that the comité central, (set up by the) government was about avoiding conflict.
F: Yes.
N: We decided to change this to a conseil central.
F: So, (let's talk about) the conseil central.
N: The council of the Jamaa.
F: So, alright.
N: Yes.
F: We looked at its composition, (asking) who is a member of the conseil central.
N: Yes.
F: To begin with, there is the délégué épiscopal. That is...
N: Reverend Father Paul.
F: Gi:
N: Gilardeau.
F: Why Father Paul? Because...
N: That is to say, it was Monseigneur, the Archbishop himself, who established the council. He did this publicly in the Basilica of Saint Mary in Kenya township.
F: Mm.
N: At that time he presented a book of Jamaa teaching to the church communities of the entire diocese.[3]
F: Mm.
N: All of them were there in numbers, priests, members of religious orders, (including) nuns...
F: ...and every parish has a book like that? Every member of the Jamaa?
N: Every baba and mama has it. They bought it, above all members of the third grade.
F: I see.
N: (And) every priest, it was delivered to every parish.
F: Mm.
N: Mm, so they could follow the teachings.
F: Is that true?
N: Then Monseigneur himself said mass with all the priests before all Christians. From today on, he said, the Jamaa as a group is recognized in my diocese as a group of the Catholic Church. I come from the maternity ward where I gave birth to a new child, its name is Jamaa (and he) showed the book.
F: Mm.
N: And he said, starting today I establish a committee of mine, charged with promoting this group, the Jamaa, and taking care of all matters.
F: Mm.
N: That's where Father Paul came in. First he appointed Father Paul, (then) Baba Marcel Ndala, Baba Sébastien Nkondo...
F: That's it.
M: ...Baba Damien Kapenda, and Baba Raymond Kongolo.
F: Kongolo, yes.
N: They formed a small (committee at first). Later, because of the many tasks that had to be taken care of this council was expanded by adding other members.
F: Mm.
N: Baba Raymond Kongolo went away to his diocese.
F: I see.
N: That's where he is now. Baba Marcel Ndala is in Likasi.
F: In Likasi.
N: Mm.
F: Now to this Father Paul – what I want to know is why did the bishop appoint Baba Paul and not someone else? Was Baba Paul knowledgeable in matters regarding the Jamaa? Was he sort of a friend of the Jamaa?
N: No. Father Paul was not in the Jamaa, he did not follow the Jamaa nor was he against it but...
N: No. (His appointment) was the bishop's own choice.
F: Yes, mm. I see.
N: Mm.
F: Mm. Fine. Up to now you continue (to work with) Paul Gilardeau?
N: Yes, up to now.
F: He is now in Lubumbashi?
N: Yes, he is in Lubumbashi. He used to be the pastor of Sainte Bernadette in Katuba Kananga.
F: I see.
N: Right now he is the pastor of Saint Charles Lwanga in Katuba.
F: In Katuba. And he is in charge of catechesis in the sector of Katuba.
F: I see.
N: Mm.

2. F: bon/ tena ma: mamembres ingine/ Baba Damien: Kapenda?
N: ndiyo/
F: ulisema kazi yake ni pastorale et développement/
N: ndiyo/
F: ni kusema nini?
N: pastorale et développement: ni kusema: eh: Baba Damien: iko ana: concevoir: programme ya: mafundisho: eh? namna: tunaweza: kuendelesha mafundisho: ya ku: bu bamembres ya Jamaa/
F: mm/
N: non seulement mafundisho ya enjili:
F: mm/
N: mais: na mafundisho ya...
F: ...ingine ya...
N: ...yenye kuelekea: no: mafundisho ingine: yee ni kuelekea uzima wa mwili/
F: eheh/
N: kwa mufano: hygiène:
F: eheh/
N: eh? propreté: eeeh: eeh: protection de l'enfance: eh: na mafundisho ingine ile muntu anaweza kujua: katika uzima wake/
F: oui oui/
N: ile yote: ile mawazo ilifika mu conseil central kwa sababu: eeh: sawa vile Bwana Yesu alisema: nakuya kukomboa muntu muzima/
F: mm/
N: ...?...Christ est venu sauver l'homme tout entier/ dans toutes ses dimensions/
F: oui oui/
N: non seulement en évangelisant:
F: oui oui/
N: mais il avait aussi eeh: sauvé: eeh: il avait guerri le malades: il avait résuscité les morts:
F: oui/
N: bref: ali: alisaidia muntu muzima/
F: mm/
K: directement/
N: eheh/
F: ah bon/
N: njo ile...
K: ...?...moya/
N: eeh: Baba Damien:
F: oui/
N: mu:
F: niliuliza sasa...
N: ...pastorale et:
F: ...ya Baba Damien ni nini/
N: oui: pastorale et développement: ana: fanya con: conception: ya: éducation:
F: [overlapping] iko mu Katuba yee?
N: na: ndiyo...?...
K: ...?.../
N: njo ile/
K: eh/
N: développement: ni maendeleo: namna gani...
F: aah/
N: batu ya Jamaa: banaweza kuendelea/
F: mm/
N: donc: eeh...
K: ...ku mambo ingine tena/
N: avancement: mu mambo ingine...
F: ...?...progrès:
N: oui: progrès: eh? kusedévelopper: ne pas toujours rester: eh?
F: mm/
N: à prier: à chanter: mais...
F: eh/
N: ...chercher aussi: d'autres idées/
K: eheh/
N: dans d'autres: d'autres deme: domaines/
K: oui/
F: oui oui/
N: njo ile/
K: na santé...
N: yee iko chargé ya ile mawazo: anafanya conceptions mais: idées yake iko discutées ensemble mu conseil: sisi ...?... tunairendre publiques:
F: ...?...
N: bote banaiappliquer/
F: yee anakala wapi?
N: Baba Damien anabakia mu paroisse Saint Jean mu Kamalondo/
F: mu Kamalondo/
K: Kamalondo/
N: oui/ mais kuwa kuwa...
F: kazi: na kazi yake?
N: ni alikuwa mu: mwalimu: eko déjà pensionné/
K: iko retraité/
N: c'est pourquoi de temps en temps anakwenda: eeh: ngambo ya Kasaji: kufanya mashamba yake:
F: aah/
N: ya kufanya: eeh: bi: biashara kidogo:
F: c'est ça/
N: mm/ ni kusaidi ya l'état ...?.../
K: eh/
N: ile yote:
K: ...?...conseiller/
N: mu cadre ya: développement: ao ya: pastorale: kwa mufano: tunaweza: ba Jamaa banaweza kuita: hata wakati ingine wa mukusanyo: hata médecin ao personnel médical/ assistant médical/
F: banafanyaka: fanyaka conférence ya hii?
N: kwa mufano: eh: kwa kufundisha par exemple pa ma: mambo ya kwashiorkor:
F: mm/
N: ao pa maladie bifulani:
F: mm/
N: inaweza kuleta épidémie:
F: mm/
N: ao kwa kushauria...
F: mm/
N: baJamaa juu ya: vaccination ya batoto:
F: mm/
N: kutafuta un médecin de la vaccinologie etcetera etcetera/
F: oui oui/
N: donc madomaines ya kuachana/ donc: c'est l'éducation même de: de la masse/
F: oui/ c'est ça/

2. F: Alright. Now about the other members (of the committee). Baba Damien Kapenda?
N: Yes.
F: You said that his task is pastorale et développement.
N: Yes.
F: What does the mean?
N: Pastorale et développement means, well, Baba Damien conceives the program of teaching.[4] Right? How we can develop teaching among the members of the Jamaa.
F: Mm.
N: Not only teaching the Gospel.
F: Mm.
N: But also lessons...
F: ...something else...
N: No, other lessons apt to improve health of the body.
F: I see.
N: Hygiene, for instance.
F: I see.
N: Right? Cleanliness and, let's see, childhood protection, and other lessons on what a person should know about his health.
F: Yes.
N: All this was an idea that came up in the conseil central because, as the Lord Jesus said, I come to save man as a whole.
F: Mm.
N: [switches to French] Christ came to save man as a whole, in all his dimensions.
F: Yes.
N: Not only by preaching the Gospel.
F: Yes.
N: But he had also saved, or rather healed the sick and resuscitated the dead.
F: Yes.
N: In a word, he helped man as a whole.
F: Mm.
K: At once.
N: Yes.
F: Ah, alright.
N: That is...
K: At once.
N: ...Baba Damien:
F: Yes.
N: In (the field of)...
F: I just asked...
N: ...pastorale et...
F: ...about Baba Damien, what (his task is).
N: Yes. (It is) pastorale et développement, he develops conceptions (about matters) of education.
F: [overlapping] He lives in Katuba?
N: Yes...?...
K: ...?..
N: That's the one (we talk about).
K: Yes.
N: Développement means progress, (it is about) how...
F: Ah.
N: ... the people of the Jamaa may progress.
F: Mm.
N: So, let's see...
K:  ... (there are) also in other matters. N: Advancement in other matters...
F: ...?... (making) progress.
N: Yes, [most of the following in French] progress, eh? Develop themselves and not staying (the same) all the time, eh?
F: Mm.
N: Praying and singing but...
F: Yes.
N: ...searching also for other ideas.
K: Yes.
N: In other domains.
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
N: That's what it is about.
K: Also about health.
N: He is the one who has to think about it, he develops conceptions. But his ideas are discussed in the council and when we agree we make them public.
F: ...?...
N: And they are applied by all.
F: Where does he live?
N: Baba Damien lives in Saint Jean parish in Kamalondo.
F: In Kamalondo.
K: Kamalondo.
N: Yes, but to be...
F: ...and what is his job (outside the council)?
N: He used to be a teacher, by now he is a pensioner.
K: He is retired.
N: That's why he goes (to the country) near Kasaji to take care of his fields.
F: I see.
N: (And) to do a little trading.
F: That's it.
N: Mm. And he helps the government.
K: Yes.
N: All that.
K: (He is an) advisor.
N: In matters of développement or pastorale. For instance, in a meeting of the Jamaa we may sometimes call on a physician or medical people such as medical assistant.
F: The give a talk about these matters?
N: They do, for instance lecturing about kwashiorkor.
F: Mm.
N: Or about certain kinds of illness.
F: Mm.
N: The may become epidemic.
F: Mm.
N: Or advising...
F: Mm.
N: ... people of that Jamaa about vaccination for children.
F: Mm.
N: How to look for a physician specializing in vaccinations, and so on and so forth.
F: Yes.
N: In other words, (advice) in different domains. So this is about mass education.
F: Yes. That's it.

3. kiisha: Baba Seba/
K: Baba Sébastien yeye: anangaria mambo ya liturgie:
F: [overlapping] yee mwenyewe/
K: [aside to N] baba: unaweza ku: ku:
F: ...?... uli: uli...?...mambo: mambo yako/
T: wee unasema mambo yako ...?.../
F: acha...?.../
N: elezo nikamate?
F: non non/
K: elezo/
F: unipatie...
T: ...shinga/
F: continuez/
N: ça va vile: si unaona:
F: usiangarie micro/
K: ...?...sema tu/
N: mm/ eeh: mambo ya liturgie: niko: chargé: wa ku: organiser/ tout-ce qui est messe: eheh: pour la Jamaa/ ya ma: sawa vile tulieleza: messes yote: ikiwe ni habari ya messe/
F: mm/
N: juu ya Jamaa: messe fulani na messe fulani: ni kazi yangu ya kuorganiser/
F: ku kanisa?
N: ah ku: eh?
F: ku kanisa/
N: ku kanisa/ ku kanisa/
F: mm/
N: kuorganiser nini? pratique: ile itatendeka: ah: ...
F: [to others]...anatumia tu mamots ya mu français...
N: oui oui/ oui oui/ eh: eh/ njo kusema: eh nilisem: eeh: eeh: [to K] baba: mu kiSwahili pratique ni kintu gani? eeh/
T: minamusikie/
K: namna ya:
N: eheh/
K: namna ya kufanya ibada/
N: eheh/
K: namna ya kufanya ibada...
N: ...mais d'accord: mais:
F: non non non:
N: le mot pratique...
F: ...tusikilizane: mi: minatafuta paka mawazo/
kama ni mu swahili ao mu français haichane/ ma: minashangaa/
N: mm/
F: sawa namna muna: munatumia: munatumia ma:
N: mm/
F: mamots mafrançais/
N: mm/ mm/ habaneko mamots ingine: kiSwahili yetu iko pauvre:
K: [overlapping]...?...
N: haina: hainako hapana/
F: c'est ça/
N: mm/
K: ...?...pate matemps liturgiques yote...?...
N: eheh/
K: ...inapatana/
F: eheh/
N: ni:
K: temps de carême:
N: eeh:
K: temps de pâques/
N: na:
K: temps de ...?...
N: ni mambo yangu ya kuyua: eeh: kuyua kuéduquer:
F: mm/
N: eh? waJamaa: mapériodes yote/ liturgiques/
F: eheh/
K: liturgiques/
N: eh temps liturgiques/
F: mm/
N: vile iko/ eh?
F: oui/
N: mu maka: hata: unaona tuko tunaanza na No๋l:
K: wakati ya No๋l/
N: et: wakati ya Pâques:
N: wa: wakati ya: eh: ma: jilio: No๋l/
K: No๋l:
N: et wakati ya Pâques:
K: parousie/
N: et: Pentequôte: enfin: wakati ya Pâques ali...?... eh: Pentekoste: et: et puis: wakati ya temps d'ordinaire/ eh?
F: mm/
N: temps d'ordinaire yote vile: inaorganisé/ napashwa kufundisha waJamaa: et: namna: ya kutimia liturgie: kufwata mwaka wa: eklesia/
F: c'est ça/
N: fwata mwaka wa eklesia/ na: namna: ya kufwata: eeh: missa: eh? et: kuimba: eh: mwimbo na yote: ikiwa wakati ya ibada/
F: mm/
N: yote/ napa: njo kazi yangu ya kuéduquer ile/
bon/ na: asa: kuéduquer: waJamaa: basi: basigeuze masala ya eklesia/
F: c'est ça/
N: eeh/
K: mm/
N: kuwa namna mbali mbali na: na eklesia/ non/ napashwa kubakia: eeh: masala ya eklesia: namna iko/
K: kuheshimia sala/
N: eh: kuhesh: eeh
K: vile vile eklesia...?.../
N: vile iko/ ni: ni kazi ile/ eeh: enfin: [chuckles] ni mambo mingi/
F: oui: sema tu/
N: si: sikumbuka tena: eeh: mimbo/ eeh: kufundisha mimbo/
F: uko na kitabu na mimbo: mimbo ya Jamaa?
N: tuna na: tuna na vitabu yetu ya Jamaa ya zamani: hata ya sasa: ni kazi yangu ya...
F:...minakumbuka sasa si tuliimba: ka...?...tulikamata ku machine:
N: ahah/
F: ku église yenu ya: ya: ku Guillaume/
N: ahah/ ancien Guillaume/
T: ancien Guillaume/
N: aah/ ancien Guillaume: eh/ eh/
T: [chuckles]
F: [overlapping] ku Guillaume: zamani/
N: eeh: eheh/
K: lakini hapa sasa:
N: eeh/
K: ni voeux ya diocèse tuko na kitabu moya/
N: ahah/
K: munachangana mimbo yote:
N: mimbo yote:
K: alifanya nguvu commission liturgique...
N: eeh: ya sous-commission liturgique ya: ya nani: na:
T: [overlapping] zaidi ni shee Jamaa beko nayimba/
N: aah/
F: eheh/
N: na: tunaimba/ ni kazi yangu ya: ya kufundisha/ eh: mimbo: kuuu: kucorriger: kuimbisha: paka vile:
F: ah/
N: ah: na kuimbisha tena: enfin: kudiriger machorales:
F: c'est ça/
N: eh: ya baJamaa/ bote/
F: eeh/
N: wakati tunapokutana/ njo kazi yangu ya [noise]
K: baba:
T: ...?...
N: ina:
F: ina: anguka/
T: hakuna...?...?
F: hakuna hakuna: non non: non non/
T: mm/
F: tuko na mayele/
N: eeh/
F: mayele ya wazungu/
N: mm/
T: [laughs]
F: dis: eh: bon/
N: eheh/
F: njo mwisho ya: kazi yako?
N: eh/ unaweza ku: unaweza kuuliza/ kuuliza hivi nitapata mambo mingi: iko na mambo mingi mais: lakini:
F: ile: eh: namna gani: wapi unafanya hii kazi? ni kusema kwa: kwa musanyiko ao?
N: oui/ wa: wakati yote tunapokusanyika/
F: eheh/
N: eeh: ni kazi yangu ya kuorganizer maprières/ eeh...
F: wee unatembea ku ma: mankundi yote?
T: m:m/
F: hapana?
N: non/
K: hapana/
N: kama nkundi yote inakusanyika/
T: ...?.../
F: ka: ule?
N: aah: aah/
K: [overlapping] njia ya tatu ao baJamaa bote/...?...
N: [overlapping] aah/ mm/ aah: aah: aah...kile: kila mikusanyiko: ao kila messe:
F: eh/
N: lakini ni kazi yangu ya kuorganiser/ maprières: enfin: ku: kufanya programme/ eh: ya:
F: ile/
N: ya: kufanya ma: maprogrammes ya mambo ya maprières: ya ya mimbo:
K: [overlapping]...?...
N: ao maretraîtes: ni: mafungo ya roho: ni kazi yangu ya kuorganiser:
K: [overlapping]...?..
N: ku: kuprogrammer/
F: eyo/
N: eh: bitafwatana namna gani/ mm/

3. Then, (to) Baba Seba.
K: As to Baba Sébastien, he looks after matters of liturgy.
F: [overlapping] He himself (could tell us).
K: [aside to N] Baba, you can (tell)...
F: ...?...  what you do.
T: You tell us about what you do.
F: Wait a moment.[5]
K: (Meanwhile) should I get the description?
F: No, no.
K: The description.[6]
F: (Just) give me...
T: ...the cable.
F: Go on.
N: That's how it goes, you see.
F: Don't look at the microphone.
K: Just talk.
N: Mm. Well, my task is to organize matters pertaining to liturgy for the Jamaa, everything regarding mass. As we explained, whatever mass is celebrated, it should have a message.
F: Mm.
N: Regarding the Jamaa. No matter which mass, it is my task to see to that.
F: In the church.
N: Ah, in -- what do you mean?
F: In the church.
N: In the church, in the church.
F: Mm.
N: Organize what? Practice, whatever is to be done, well...
F: [to others] ...he keeps using words in French.
N: Yes, yes. Well, what I was saying – [to K] baba, what is practice in Swahili? Well...
T: ...I should understand him.
K: (It is) the way of...
N: Yes.
K: The way of conducting worship.
N: Yes.
K: The way to conduct worship.
N: Yes, but...
F: No, no, no.
N: ...the term in spoken Swahili...
F: ...let's understand each other, I am after the idea, whether (it is expressed) in Swahili or in French makes no difference. But I am surprised.
N: Mm.
F: At the way you keep using...
N: Mm.
F: ...French words.
N: Mm. Mm. Some words are lacking, our Swahili is poor.
K: [overlapping]: ...?...
N: (Those words) don't exist.
F: That's it.
N: Mm.
K: Take all the liturgical seasons...
N: Yes.
K: ...that come about.
F: Yes.
N: They are:
K: Temps de carême (lent).
N: Yes.
K: Temps de pâques (Easter).
N: And:
K: Temps de...?...
N: It is my job to know them and to educate...
F: Mm.
N: ...the people of the Jamaa, right? (Teach them) all the liturgical periods.
F: Yes.
K: Liturgical (periods).
N: The liturgical season.
F: Mm.
N: What they are like, you understand?
F: Yes.
N: You see, during the year we start with Christmas.
K: Christmas time.
N: Then, Easter time.
K: Advent.[7]
N: The time of – yes, Advent (before) Christmas.
K: Christmas.
N: And Easter time.
K: The Apparition (of Christ).
N: And Pentecost, after Eastertime comes Pentecost and the ordinary time, right?
F: Mm.
N: The ordinary time – all of them come in a certain order and I am to teach people of the Jamaa how to conduct the liturgy according to the church year.
F: That's it.
N: Following the church year. And also how to follow the mass, right? And (I also teach) the singing, all the hymns that may be sung during a service.
F: Mm.
N: It is my job to teach all that. Alright. And also teach the Jamaa not to change the prayers of the church.
F: That's it.
K: Mm.
N: So that they are not like those of the church.
No, the prayers must remain those of the church.
K: (This is about) respecting the prayers.
N: Yes, respect (them).
K: As the church...?...
N: As they are. That's (my) job. Well [chuckles], there are many things.
F: Yes, just say (what they are).
N: I can't of anything else, well, (there are) the hymns, teaching the hymns.
F: Do you have a book of hymns, hymns of the Jamaa?
N: We have our books of the Jamaa as it used to be and as it is now. It is my job...
F: ...I remember now that we sang and recorded that.
N: Yes.
F: In your church in (Camp) Guillaume.
N: Yes, the former Guillaume.
T: The former Guillaume.
N: Ah, the former Guillaume, yes.
T: [chuckles].
F: [overlapping] (Camp) Guillaume in the old days.[8]
N: Yes. Yes.
K: However, right now....
N: Yes.
K: is the wish of the diocese that we use one book...
N: Yes.
K: ....where all the songs are collected.
N: All the songs.
K: The commission liturgique insisted on that.
N: Yes, it was for the sous-commission liturgique (to see to that).
T: [overlapping] We, the Jamaa, (are people) who sing a lot.
N: Yes.
F: I see.
N: And we sing (from it). It is my job to teach the songs and to correct them, and make people sing. That sort of thing.
F: Ah.
N: Yes, and to make them sing, in other words, to direct the choirs.
F: That's it.
N: All (the singers) of the Jamaa.
F: Yes.
N: When we meet. That is my job... [noise][9]
K: Baba.
T: ...?...
N: It...
F: It fell down.
T: Is there no...?...
F: It's nothing, no no no no.
T: Mm.
F: We are clever.
N: Yes.
F: The cleverness of whites.
N: Mm.
T: [laughs]
F: Say, well alright.
N: Yes.
F: Are we finished (talking about) your work?
N: Yes. You can ask questions, that way I get to other matters, there are lots of them. But...
F: How and where do you do this work, during meetings or?   
N: Yes, whenever we have meetings.
F: I see.
N: It is my job to organize the prayers. Let's see...
F: ...are you going around to all the groups.
T: No.
F: No?
N: No.
K: No.
N: (Only) when all the groups come together.
T: ...?...
F: Is that it?
N: Yes, yes.
K: [overlapping] Members of the third grade or all member of the Jamaa. ...?...
N: [overlapping] Ah, mm. Ah, ah, ah. In every meeting or mass.
F: Yes.
N: It is my job to organize (things). The prayers, in other words, put together the program of what (is to be done).
F: That's it.
N: Put together the program of the prayers and the songs.
K: [overlapping] ...?...
N: Or the retreats. My job is to organize them.
K: [overlapping] ...?...
N: To program them.
F: I see.
N: To plan the sequence. Mm.

4. F: sasa fasi ya: ya: ya réunions/ mbele tuanze na réunion du conseil central: ni wapi?
K: ku salle: pastorale:
N: [overlapping] eeh:
K: ...salle pastorale wa cathédrale/
N: eeh: réunion yaa:
F: conseil central/
N: ya conseil central/ tunafanya kila mara: kwa
archevêché kwenyewe/
F: ahah/
N: mu salle inaitwa salle familia/ ou bien: ou: ou bien: oui:
F:centre pastoral/
N: enfin: centre pastoral: banaita vile/ mais tunaweza kupata mu: mu: mu mu mu: mu locale kidoko: ça dépend/ eh? kama haina occupé/ mais: ni...
F: tena: hii: assemblée trimes: trimestrielle:
N: mm/
F: kama muko ma: ba: bamingi: bon: muna: munakutana wapi?
K: salle familiale...
N: eh: paka: toujours kule:
K: [overlapping]...?...
N: eeh: salle familiale: ao: ndani ya: ndani ya kanisa/ mm/
F: ndani ya kanisa/
N: aah/
K: ...? cathédrale/
N: ah: kama kwiko occupation ingine/
F: hii réunion mukubwa: mukubwa? na nani ingine: congrès annuel:
N: lamna moya/
K: namna moya/
F: fêtes vile vile?
N: oui oui/
K: yote paka...
N: ...mafêtes yote tunapenda:
F: kumbe inje: haiwezikane?
N: eeh/ donc: donc: eeh: hata monseigneur alipenda vile: mm? ya kama mambo yote iwe..
F: mu:
N: ...ku archevêché/
F: mu archevêché/
N: katikati: ma: activités yote/
F: eyo/
N: ni sawa vile ba: bangine nabo: beko na maactivités yabo: na kule katikati/
K: ...?...nkundi ya action catholique mupaka kule...?...
N: paka kule/

4. F: Now, about the place of meetings. Let's start with the meeting of the conseil central, where does it take place?
K: In the pastoral hall...
N: [overlapping] Let's see.
K: In the pastoral hall at the cathedral.
N: The meeting of...
F: ...the conseil central.
N: Of the conseil central. (That one) we always have right at the archbishop's residence.
F: I see.
N: In a hall called Familia, or also...
F: Pastoral center.
N: That's it, pastoral center, that's what it is called. But we may get together in a small room, it depends, right? I it is not occupied.
F: Then about this assemblée trimestrielle.
N: Mm.
F: When there are many of you, where do you meet?
K: In the family hall.
N: Yes, always there.
K: [overlapping] ...?...
N: In the family hall or in the church, mm.
F: In the church.
N: Yes.
K: In the cathedral.
N: Yes, if it is not otherwise occupied.
F: About that really large meeting – what was it again? – the congres annuel.
N: The same.
K: The same.
F: And celebrations also?
N: Yes, yes.
K: Everything...
N: ... all the celebration we like.
F: So, it is not possible (to have them) outside?
N: Right, Monseigneur himself wanted to have it the way, you understand? Everything should take place...
F: At the...
N: the archbishop's residence.
F: In the archbishop's residence.
N: Within its confines, all activities.
F: I see.
N: It's the same for others who have their activities inside of it.
K: (Like) the Catholic Action groups, (they meet) only there.
N: Only there.

5. F: tuendelee sasa na: na majina ya: membres du: du comité/ Abellard: Mwenda/
T: ...?...
N: mm/
F: catéchèse communication/ ni kusema yee anafanya: ki kanani:
N: [overlapping] ni: ni
F: ka journal yenu?
N: aah: ni kusema yeye: anashimamia/ he?
F: ahah/
N: et: habari ya journal yetu: eh? kama tunatuma nouvelles: ni kazi yake ya kucoordonner/
F: c'est ça/
N: eheh/ kushimamia: na: kufwata: ikilisha: anadistribuer:
F: mm/
N: eheh: ni paka vile/ na: tena: anapashwa ku: kuangaria mambo ya mafundisho/
F: eh/
N: mm/ catéchèse: futa: eeh: quelque sorte ile tunasema pastorale: anapashwa kuangaria mambo ya mafundisho/
F: ...?...
N: eeh: kukata mambo: kama: banataka kudévier:
F: eh/
N: eh? mafundisho/
F: ah/
N: na: kazi yake ya kukinga/
F: kukinga:
N: ah: kufika: ma: wale mu ile paroisse: hata mu ile secteur: kusema non: eh: njia ni hivi/
F: oui/
N: mafundisho yetu ni hivi: si hivi hapana/
F: si hapana/
N: ni ile tulimu: eeh: tulimuspécialiser mu ile/ eh? juu ya kukinga: mafundisho ibaki: ya Jamaa katolika/
F: oui oui/
N: mm/ asiwe kintu ingine:
F: ni: ni: na: na yee: muntu wako: kumbe: ni: ni muzee ao ni mu: kijana?
N: hapana/
F: kazi yake ni nini?
K: aah: baba...?...
N: ah: kazi yake: Baba Abellard: hana:
K: ...?...
N: hana na kazi comme tel: ya société: mais anasaidia eh?
F: anasaidia/
N: wasoeurs: ni: ni maçon eh?
K: ni maçon/
N: eeh ni maçon/
K: fanya kazi ya mikono/
N: eh: fanya kazi yake ya mikono: anasaidia: banamuita:
K: ni muntu wa kukomea eh?
N: mm/ mm/
F: ...?...kijana?
N: ndiyo: ni: ni kijana hapana: ni muntu à l'âge mur/
F: oui oui/
K: l'âge mur:
N: mm/ mm/
K: cinquantaine d'années/
N: mm/
F: bon/ njo Mwenda/
N: mm/

5. F: Let's continue now with the names of committee members: Abellard
T and F: Mwenda.
N: Mm.
F: Catechesis and communication. In other words, he is the one who puts together – what is it again?
N: It is...
F: Your little newsletter?
N: Yes, he oversees (it), right?
F: I see.
N: His job is to coordinate the news we send to our journal.
F: That's it.
N: Yes, (his job is) to oversee this and follow it through. In the end, he takes care of the distribution.
F: Mm.
N: Yes, that sort of thing. And also, he should have an eye on matters of teaching.
F: Yes.
N: Mm. Find out about catechesis and what we call pastorale, keep an eye on teaching.
F: ...?...
N: And also settle conflicts. When people are about to go astray.
F: Yes.
N: Right? (In matters of) teaching.
F: Ah.
N: An his job is to prevent this.
F: Prevent it.
N: Visit those (who go astray) in a given parish or secteur and tell them, no, the (right) way is this.
F: Yes.
N: This is what we teach, not the way (you do it).
F: No.
N: That is what we got him to specialize in, you understand? It is about making sure that the teaching remains that of the Catholic Jamaa.
F: Yes.
N: Mm. It shouldn't be something else.
F: And this person you are talking about, is he and old man or (still) young?
N: No, (neither one nor the other).
F: What kind of work does he do for a living?
K: Well, baba ...?...
N: About his work, Baba Abellard doesn't...
K: ...?...
N: ...he doesn't have job as such, like (being employed) by a company. But he helps out, you understand?
F: He helps out.
N: (He helps) the nuns, he is a mason, right?
K: He is a mason.
N: Yes, he is a mason.
K: He does manual work.
N: Yes, he does manual work, he helps out when people call for him.
F: He is a person of a certain age, right?
N: Mm. Mm.
F: He is no longer young?
N: No, he is not a youngster, he is a mature person.
F: Yes.
K: Of a mature age.
N: Mm. Mm.
K: In his fifties.
N: Mm.
F: Alright, that was about Mwenda.
N: Mm.

6. F: Bruno/
N: ahah/
K: Bruno? protocol/
N: Bruno: ni ya: tulimuazia kazi ya protocol: ni kusema ku:
K: kupokea bageni: ...?...
N: kupokea/ ku: kuwapatia fashi: eeh: kuuu [pauses] kuwachunga: eeh: na: [pauses] enfin l'organisation ya muntu pro: protocol: unuayua eh...
F: ...relations publiques/
N: eeh: ni vile oui/ ni ile eeh: sasa anabakia...
F: ...kazi yake ya sasa ni nini? kama...?...
N: ...yeye: oui oui: na sasa iko paka ajusteur/
F: ajusteur/
N: mu atélier central/
F: c'est ça/ mu eh: TP?
N: eeh:
K: ya SNCZ/
N: atélier central ya SNCZ/
F: ah: hii S...
N: atélier central ya SNCZ/
F: ah s: ah oui oui/
N: SNCZ eeh/ aah/ eeh: ajusteur/
F: oui oui/
N: yee: kazi yake: ya: tunasema kupokea: ku: kuwaonyesha fashi: ku: ku: kuchungana nabo: kuyua baende wapi: batalala wapi:
F: oui oui/
N: eeh: na hivi/
K: batakula nini:
N: batakula nini: kufwata ma ile organisat...
F: ...mamingi banafika?
N: aah: balifika ba kuenea: pas trop mais:
K: ...?...congrès/
N: eeh: ahah/
K: ...?...
N: balifika ba kuenea/ mm/
F: bon/ bon? njo mwisho? ya:
K: ndiyo/ kama/
N: mm/ mm/

6. F: (Now we get to) Bruno (Kaba).
N: Yes.
K: Bruno? Protocol.
N: Bruno we charged with the protocol. That is to say...
K: Receiving guests...?...
N: Receiving guest, find them a place to stay, [pauses] look after them, [pauses] organize whatever the one who is in charge of protocol does. You know...
F: ...public relations.
N: Yes, things like that. That's what he keeps doing now...
F: ... what does he do for his living? If (he has a job).
N: He does, yes. Right now he is a fitter.
F: A fitter.
N: At the central workshop.
F: That's it. At the TP (public works department)?
N: Well.
K: The central workshop of SNCZ (the railway company).
F: Ah, that one.
N: The central workshop of SNCZ.
F: Ah, yes.
N: SNCZ, yes. He is a fitter.
F: Yes.
N: As we said, his job is to receive (guests), show them a place (to stay), look after them, know where they should go, where they should sleep.
F: Yes.
N: Yes, things like that.
K: What they are going to eat.
N: What they are going to eat, organize those things.
F: Are there many who come (visiting)?
N: Well, quite a few came, not too many but...
K: (For the) congrès.
N: Yes.
K: ...?...
N: Quite a few came, mm.
F: Alright, is that all about (Bruno)?
K: Yes, unless...
N: Mm, mm.

7. F: Emile Lukusa/
N: Emile Lukusa:
K: ni projet tulifanya/
N: ni projet tulifanya: ya kama:
K: kama essayer:
N: kama tunakuwa na moyens:
F: oui/
N: eh? tunaweza: makuta: inaweza ku: kuzaa/ ah? kwa kuzaa...
F: investisse...
N: c'est ç: eh:
F: investissement/
N: investissement: njo kusema tunaanza kuinvestir: mu kitu: na ule baba: yeye: ni baba: ana: hana mu kazi: ya société comme telle: anaik: anaikaa: iko pensionné:
F: mm/
N: iko na: na mayele/ ya nguvu/ anaikala bila kazi mais anaishi vizuri/
F: eheh/
N: anadima: mama iko muntu wa nguvu sana:
T: ...?... anavuka/
N: anavuka:
F: kuvuka ni nani?
N: eeh/
F: mbuzi?
N: eko: muntu mayele sana: iko na nyumba muzuri: kama unaona hana kazi ya comme tel: utashangaa/ eko muntu wa mayele mingi sana/ ni kusema yeye...
F: ...anakala wapi?
T: eko mu Katuba/
N: mm? eko mu Katuba/ na tunasema: eh: yeye: tukipata makuta: anaweza kuoccuper juu ya:
F: oui oui/
N: kuinvestir/ ku: kuuzisha:
F: kuuzisha:
N: aah/ pourcentage: [claps] hata: eventuellement: tunaweza kuya kujuger: eh: yake salaire/ eh?
F: oui oui/
N: kuona asema voilà: ça va: apate pourcentage hivi na hivi: imusaidie/
F: c'est ça/
N: aah: ni yeye tuliwazia ile/
F: mais: inabakia tu...
N: yeye kama: kama inaba...
K: ...anabakia proche/
N: kama munamupa kitu:
F: mm/
N: hata kama banachanga: makuta ya caisse ao nini: yee hapoteshaka/ anachunga kupita bale voleurs bote/
K: mm/
F: [chuckles]
N: ana...
T: ...?...
N: anafunga tu/
T: na mama wake/
K: ...?... nguvu sana/
N: na kama banasema leta: hata bushiku: hanaleta/ yee hapana kutosha sawa sisi wote: na mama wake/
T: ...?...
N: ni bantu ya: le: ya nguvu sana/ [chuckles]
T: akili ya mingi/
F and T: [laugh]
N: eh/ voilà/
F: njo ka:
N: eeh/
F: njo ku Lukusa...
N: ...Baba Lukusa Emile: eeh/

7. F: Emile Lukasa.
N: Emile Lukusa.
K: There is project we made.
N: It is a project to...
K: try...
N: ...when we have the means.
F: Yes.
N: Right? Then we could see to it that our money earns interest (lit. gives birth).
F: Invest.
N: That's it.
F: Investment.
N: Investment. In other words, we are about to invest in something (with the help of) this baba. He does not hold a company job, he lives in retirement.
F: Mm.
N: He is very intelligent. He does not hold a job but he lives well.
F: I see.
N: He works (his fields), his wife is a very strong person.
T: ...?... he is the best.
N: She (also) keeps animals.
F: What does kuvuka mean? [10]
N: Well.
F: (Keeping) goats?
N: He is a very intelligent person. He has a beautiful house. You'll be surprised, considering that he has no regular job. He is an extremely bright person. In other words, he...
F: ... where does he live?
T: He lives in Katuba.
N: Mm? He lives in Katuba. So what we are saying is that, if we get some money together he can keep busy to...
F: Yes.
N: invest it. (Buy) and sell.
F: Sell.
N: Yes, make a profit (lit. percentage), [claps] in which case we may decide to pay him a salary, right?
F: Yes.
N: See how he does and if he does well (decide) that he should benefit from a certain percentage.
F: That's it.
N: Ah, that was the idea we had for him.
F: But he remains just...
N: ...and if he stays...
K: ... stays close.
N: If you give him something.
F: Mm.
N: When cash is collected, or whatever, he is not going to lose it. He keeps it, better than all those thieves.
K: Mm.
F: [chuckles]
N: He...
T: ...?...
N: He just keeps the lid on it.
T: Together with his wife.
K: He is very strong.
N: And when they tell them to give them (money), even at night[11], he doesn't give it. Unlike all of us, he never parts with it. (The same goes for) his wife.
T: ...?...
N: They are very strong people.
T: (And) very clever.
F and T: [laugh]
N: Yes, that's it.
F: So much about...
N: Yes.
F: ...about Lukusa.
N: Baba Lukusa Emile, yes.

8. F: tena: eh: nani: eeh: Kalala/ finances/
N: aah/ Kalala: yeye ni wa sasa: alakini tunaona: tunamuestimer: kuona:
F: ni kusema ya sasa ni?
N: eeh/
F: anabakia...?...
T: ...?...
N: humu mwetu: eh? alitoka Kolwezi:
F: anatoka Kolwezi?
N: alikuwa hapa petu sasa/
K: ...anamukombola Baba: Baba Donat/
N: na: ilikuwa kazi ya Baba Donat Ndala ule alikufa/ ha?
F: ahah/
N: tunamuweka yeye: kufwata masomo yake: eh? anafanya sciences économiques eh?
F: aaah oui/
N: ahah/ ni pale:tunamupa ni: kazi yake/ na tunaona idées yake iko calmes:
F: eeh/
N: iko: ...?... wa heshima: heshima mingi: iko calme: et: na tunaona kazi yake anatumika huku: banasifu: ku SNCZ: et: ni auditeur:
F: ile auditeur ni sasa:
K: aah oui/
N: c'est: c'est ça/
F: ule: alikuwa zamani ku Gécamines sawa: sawa uliniambia/
N: eheh/
K: ndiyo ndiyo/
N: eheh/ na sasa: tunamupa ile kazi: tunatumaini: ekoamo mashiku kidogo: tunatumaini ya kama: itaendeka/ [claps] tuliyua muzuri Baba Donat: alikufa: mwaka: mwaka: mwaka jana: na sasa yeye ni mashiku kidogo: tunamuwazia ya kama: itaendeka vizuri/
K: ...?...
N: lakini tutaona: pale ata: atatumika/ mm/
F: ni yee anapokea donc...
N: ...ah:
F: ...macôtisations?
N: anapashwa ku:
K: ...?...côtisations/
N: anapashwa kugérer:
K: anafanya versement à la banque:
N: eheh/
F: oui/
K: ana: anachunga: dossiers yote...
N: aah/
K: ...ku table yake/
N: gestion: ile...
F: ...macôtisations munafanya: régulièrement?
N: tulipenda: ikuwe régulièrement chaque mois: chaque mois: alakini: habi: ts: habiendeka pas encore: sasa tuliisha kusema: mufanya hata: deux fois l'an: eeh: sémestriellement/
F: c'est ça/
N: et: après six mois: munaleta: soixante Zaire/ kila nyumba: par exemple/
F: eh/
N: et kufika mu décembre munafanya namna moya/
F: c'est ça/
N: pasipo: ku: kunuomba: kila mwezi kila mwezi kila mwezi/ alakini: tungaliki tuna: tuna: tunako...
F: ...?...
N: tunakombana/ tuna: [claps several times]
K: [overlapping]...? kufanya sasa/
N: aah/
F: ni vile/
N: aah: tunakombana: alakini tunaisha kuwa na: un petit montant: de rien de tout: et: na tunaendelea paka vile/ kumbe yee ni kazi yake ya kugérer: enfin tuseme: kugérer d'enfin: les fonds: à la banque:
F: bon/ ça va/
N: ni byote:

8. F: Then comes – who is it again? – Kalala. Finances.
N: Ah, Kalala, he is a recent member. But we observed him and have a high opinion of him
F: What does it mean, recent?
N: Well.
F: Where does he live?
T: ...?...
N: Here (in Lubumbashi). He came from Kolwezi.
F: He is from Kolwezi?
N: Now he is with us here.
K: He replaces Baba Donat.
N: It was Baba Donat Ndala's work, the one who died.
F: I see.
N: We appointed him according to his training. He studied economics, right?
F: Ah, yes.
N: We gave him his job and saw that in his ideas he was a calm person.
F: Yes.
N: He is very respectful and calm and we saw that at SNCZ, where he works as an auditor, his work is praised.
F: (So) he is now the auditor
K: Ah, yes.
N: That's it. That's it.
F: He is the one who used to be with Gécamines, as you told me.
N: Yes.
K: Yes, yes.
N: So now we gave him this job and, (although) he has been here only for a short time, we hope things go well. [claps]. Baba Donat we knew well but he died last year. Although he arrived not long ago, we think that (with Baba Kalala) things will go well.
K: ...?...
N: But we'll see when he takes up his work. Mm.
F: Is he the one who receives...
N: Ah.
F: ...the contributions?
N: His duty is...
K: ...he receives the contributions.
N: His duty is to manage (the funds).
K: He puts them in the bank.
N: Yes.
F: Yes.
K: He keeps all the files...
N: Yes.
K: his desk.
N: (He does) the administrative work for this.
F: Do you collect contributions regularly?
N: We would like to do this regular, every month. But it hasn't been working so far. So finally we that the collections should be twice a year, (once) per semester.
F: That's it.
N: For instance, after six months you give sixty Zaire per household.
F: Yes.
N: And come December you do the same.
F: That's it.
N: Without having to beg for it every month. However, we are still...
F: ...?...
N: We argue about it, we [claps several times]...
K: [overlapping] should be done now.
N: Ye.
F: That's right.
N: Well, we keep arguing. But we have a small amount together, nothing much, and we go on (from there). So his job is to manage the funds we have in the bank.
F: Fine.
N: That's all.

9. F: donc: tunafika kwa Baba Anaclet/ Baninyela/
N: Baba:
K: oeuvres sociales/
N: aah: Baninyela Anaclet:
K: ...?...
F: oui/
N: ni muntu moya: tunawazia: banaweza ku: kuchunga: eeh: wa: oeuvres sociales: tuseme: eh: kuangaria mam: bamalades:
K: bilio:
N: ma: ba: mambo ya bilio:
F: mm/
N: et mambo yaaa:
K: maskini:
N: wa maskini pire: eh:
K: ...?...baJamaa:
N: ka: ba ma: mar: bilio: na: na ku: bago: bagonjwa:
F: bagonjwa/
N: kabisa: eeeh: kufwata: eh: situation yabo/
F: mm/
N: iko namna gani? tufanye nje? est-ce que kwiko moja: eeh: munganga par exemple anamuomba:
K: damu ...?.../
N: eh: damu:
K: ...?...
N: eeh: ukileta damu utakuwa naye: lakini yee hana na moyens:
F: mm/
N: ni kazi yake ya kutupasha: eh?
K: ...?...
N: tunatafuta mbio:
K: tunafanya ...?...par exemple:
N: eeh/
K: kwa kutafuta muntu moya wa nguvu:
N: ku ga...?...:
K: kuleta damu:
N: oui: kuleta muntu: ao kama: munganga anafanya ordonnance/ anasema ah: yafaa: dawa: ya autant/
F: mm/
N: alakini: ule baba hana moyens/ hana kazi/
F: eeh/
N: na tunapashwa ku: saidia/
K: ...?...
N: ni ile kazi tunataka yeye: anapasha kushu: kushuririka juu ya ile kazi/
F: mm/ na:
N: eeeh/
F: ...? Mama Gérardine?
N: ah: na ule ni comme adjoint:
K: banasaidiana/
N: eeh/ kumusai: kusaidia/ alakini: eeeh: ni mama mujane: hana wakati: et hivi na hivi: mais: tunaona asema: ai: apime kwanza kupima/
F: [overlapping] yeye: kazi yake: ni nini?
K: ...?...
N: ah: ilitaka kuwa namna moya/ adjoint:
K: ...?...
N: alitaka ku:kusaidi:
K: non: ...?... hanaweza kazi ya baba/ Baba Anaclet na yee anatumika kazi ya mikono:
N: ahah/
F: kazi ya mikono vile/
N: ah: kazi yake: eh: ni maçon vile vile/
K: eko anatumika makazi tu yote vile/
N: eh/ iko libre:
K: ...?...maçon:
N: ahah/ ahah/
K: eh: peintre:
N: bakimuita kazi fulani: ana: anasaidia: anafanya/ mm/

9. F: So, now we get to Baba Anaclet Baninyela.
N: Baba...
K: Oeuvres sociales.
N: Ah, Baninyela Anaclet.
K: ...?...
F: Yes.
N: He is someone we though could take care of oeuvres sociales. Let's say, look after the sick.
K: (Help with periods of) mourning.
N: Matters of mourning.
F: Mm.
N: And matters regarding...
K: ...the poor.
N: Those who stricken by poverty.
K: (Among the) members of the Jamaa.
N: (Help those who are in) mourning (visit) the sick.
F: The sick.
N: Above all have and eye on their situation.
F: Mm.
N: How are they, what else can we do? For example, did a doctor ask him to get...
K: ... blood.
N: Yes, blood.
K: ...?...
N: (I could treat you) if you brought blood with you. But (the patient) does not have the means (to pay for the blood).
F: Mm.
N: It is (Baba Anaclet's) job to get it for us, right?
K: ...?...
N: We look for it right away.
K: We see to it, for example.
N: Yes.
K: Looking for a strong person.
N: ...?..
K: To donate blood.
N: Yes, take a person to him. Or a physician make write a prescription for a medication that is needed
F: Mm.
N: But this baba does not have the means (to pay for it), he may be out of work.
F: Yes.
N: And we may have to help out.
K: ...?...
N: That is the kind of job he has to do.
F: Mm.
F: And...
F: ...what about Mama Gérardine?
N: Ah, she is something like his assistant.
K: They help each other.
N: Yes, to help him. But, well, she is a widow and doesn't have (much). Of that and other things we are aware but we said that she should give it a try.
F: [overlapping] What is her job?
K: ...?...
N: Well, it was to be the same (as Baba Anaclet's), (as his) assistant.
K: ...?...
N: She wanted to help.
K: She cannot help (with everything), Baba Anaclet is a manual worker.
N: Yes.
F: Manual work.
N: Yes, that's what he does, he is also a mason.
K: He does all kinds of work.
N: Yes. And he is free.
K: As a mason.
N: Yes, yes.
K: Or house painter.
N: Whatever work they call him for he helps and does it, mm.

10. F: tunafika ku sécrétariat: donc: Baba Simon hapa:
N: mm/
F: oui/ [aside, moving the microphone] ku mambo ya: sécrétaire/
N: mm: sécrétaire/
F: [to K] kamata: eeh [noise, changing chairs] eeh: bon/
K: kazi yetu ya sécrétaire: ya wa conseil central:
F: mm/
K: ni kuchunga madossiers administratifs yote ya: ya nkundi/ mmm: mikusanyiko yote: kukamata:
F: ...?...
K: compte rendu: ya maréunions yote: ya conseil central: conseil élargi ao conseil restraint: ao ya assemblée ya banjia tatu: ao ya baJamaa bote:
F: ...?...
K: ao: kufanya résumé ya macongrès/
F: [overlaping] c'est ça/
K: ya macongrès: eeh yote: ya: congrès annuel ya Jamaa/
F: eheh/
K: eeh: kuandika: mikanda: ya kuachana eh: diverses correspondances:
F: ndiyo/
K: ya kutuma: à la hiérarchie ecclésiastique:
F: ...?...
K: ao ya kutumia: eh mankundi ingine: ya ma régions ingine: ao ya madiocèses ingine: ile yenye kututumia: eh?
F: mm/
K: donc: bref: mambo yote yenye kuelekea Jamaa: mikanda yote correspondances yote: ni mimi:
K: ni yeye/
F: ni weye/
K: ni andika nafanya/ eh: kama mi sinako: ni bale bawili:
N: adjoints yake:
K: bale bawili: ao Baba Félix Matofari: ao Baba Jourdain Kapole Kayumba:
F: mm/
K: bananisaidia banakamata hii kazi ya sécrétariat/
F: sasa: kama minona majina mm?
K: ndiyo/ na: sisi wenyewe: et: miye: miye Baba Simon:
F: oui/
K: natumika: ku Gécamines:
F: ku Gécamines/
N: ku département ya transport: niko gradué en sciences politiques administratives/
F: ahah: hapa ku Lubumbashi?
K: ndiyo/ mm/ lakini anafanya ku CIDEP/
N: ...?...yake:
K: oui/ Centre Interdisciplinaire:
F: oui oui/
K: eeh: pour le Développement et Education Permanente/
F: oui oui oui/
K: mais qui a fonctionné sous:
F: oui oui/
K: les auspices du campus de Lubumbashi/
F: oui oui oui/ wakati gani?
K: nilimaliza mu neuf cent septante-sept/
F: septante-sept?
K: oui/
F: kumbe: nani alikuwa mukubwa?
K: eeh:
F: directeur/
K: ule alikuwa recteur wa campus?
F: non non: wa CIDEP/
K: directeur wa CIDEP pour le wakati alikuwa ni: eeh:
F: mm/
K: nani? citoyen: Mboso/
F: hap: aah/
K: Mboso: n'Kodia Pwanga/
F: ahah ...?.../
K: ancien: ancien: appariteur/
F: ah bon/
K: ancien directeur wa apparitorat central ya campus humu/
F: ahah/ si mi nilikuwa professeur ku s: ku faculté ya sciences sociales administratives?
K: ah oui mais: tulikuwa na baprofesseurs mingi: baprofesseurs Lubadika: baprofesseurs Munzadi:
F: ah oui/
K: baprofesseurs Bibombe Muamba: baprofesseur Kabongo Mukanda:
F: [overlapping] njo alinifwata ku ch: kwa: nilikuwa chef de département:
K: aah oui: Lubadika eh?
F: miye/
K: ah wee ulikuwa chef de département/
F: septante: trois: septante-quatre/
K: ah oui/ tulikuwa na bale bote ule wakati she tuko mu:
F: aah/
K: mu CIDEP eh/
F: mm/ très bien/
K: mm/

10. F: Then we get to the secretary's job – Baba (Kamanga) Simon here.
N: Mm.
F: Yes. [aside, moving the microphone] To what the secretary does.
N: Mm, the secretary.
F: [to K] Take it. [noise, changing chairs]. Eeh, alright.
K: Our work as secretary of the conseil central...
F: Mm.
K: to keep all administrative files of the group. And of all meetings make...
F: ...?..
K: ...reports, of the meetings of the conseil central, the conseil élargi or the conseil restraint, or of the assembly of members of the third grade, or the assemblée générale trimestrielle of all members of the Jamaa.
F: ...?...
K: Or make a summary of every congress.
F: [overlapping] That's it.
K: Of every congress, the congrès annuel of the Jamaa (for instance).
F: Yes.
K: Let's see (what else), writing letters and keeping various kinds of correspondence.
F: Yes.
K: To be sent to the hiérarchie ecclésiastique.
F: ...?...
K: Or to different groups in other regions or dioceses that have sent letters to us, right?
F: Mm.
K: In short, everything that regards the Jamaa, documents and correspondence, all that is my (job).
N: It's he (who does that).
F: It's you.
K: When something needs to be written I take care of it and when I am away there those two...
N: His assistants.
K: ...either Baba Félix Matofali or Baba Jourdain Kapole Kayumbe, the two of them.
F: Mm.
K: They help me and take over the secretary's
F: Now, when I look at the names, mm?
N: Yes. Among us there is me, Baba Simon.[12]
F: Yes.
K: I work at Gécamines.
F: At Gécamines.
K: Gécamines.
K: In the transportation department. I have a diploma in political and administrative sciences.
F: I see, here from (the university of) Lubumbashi?
K: Yes, mm. But I studied at CIDEP.
N: ...?...
K: Yes. The Interdisciplinary Center...
F: Yes.
K: ...for Development and Continued Education.
F: Yes, I see.
K: Which functioned under...
F: Yes.
K: ...the auspices of the campus of Lubumbashi.
F: Yes, I see. When was that?
K: I finished in 1977.
F: '77?
K: Yes.
F: Who was the one in charge?
K: Well.
F: The director.
K: (You mean) the one who was the rector of the campus?
F: No, no, of CIDEP.
K: The director of CIDEP at the time was...
F: Mm/
K: Who was it again? Citoyen Mboso.
F: I see.
K: Mboso, n'Kodia Pwanga.
F: I see.
K: Formerly with the student service.
F: Ah, alright.
K: The former director of the central student service at the campus here (in Lubumbashi).
F: I see. (Didn't you know that) I was a professor at the Faculty of Social and Administrative Sciences?
K: Ah, yes. But we had many professors, among them professor Lubadika, professor Munzadi (Bakole).
F: Yes.
F: Professors Bibombe Muamba, Kabongo Mukanda.
F: [overlapping] He was my successor, I was head of the department (anthropology and sociology).
K: Yes. (Your mean) Lubadika?
F: Me.[13]
K: Ah, you were head of the department.
F: In '73, '74.
K: Yes. We had all those (professors) at that time when we were...
F: Yes.
K: ... at CIDEP.
F: Mm, very good.
K: Mm.

11. F: bon/ eh: [pauses] ts: aah: minaona majina: ts: si unajua: zamani balisema: bamingi balisema tu: Jamaa ni mambo ya baKasai/
N: mm/ ndiyo/
F: kama unataka: nifunge. mais: si vi: sawa vile ?musemeo/ mi: minaona majina ya comité central: minaona: Kapenda/
N: mm/
F: kama ni: Lunda:
N: yee iko Lun: yee ni Lunda/
F: kama Nkondo wa Kasai:
N: Kasai/
F: Mwenda ni muYeke:
N: mm oui/
F: Kaba/
N: mm muKasai:
F: muKasai: Lukusa mu Kasai:
N: Kasai/
F: Kalala?
N: huyu wa buKalala?
F: ao Katanga ao Kasai?
N: Kalala wa ku SCNZ oui: wa finance/
K: ule ni Kasai/
N: Kasai:
F: Banyingela?
N: Kasai:
F: Kung? Lunda/
N: Lunda:
K: Lunda: mm/
F: Kamanga/
N: Kasai:
F: Matofali?
N: eh Lunda:
K: ...?...
N: oui:
F: Lunda/ et Kapoya?
N: muLuba wa Shaba/
F: muLuba wa Shaba?
K: mm/
F: kumbe:
N: ni kintu cha batu bote/ eeh/ si kweli?
K: si kweli?
N: c'est universel/
F: oui oui/
F: kumbe/ kweli/ lakini: minaona tena: zaidi: muko wazee/ [to K] hapana/ we uko kijana/ unaikala ...?... unabakilia kijana kwa nkundi ya conseil/
K: mais: oui: eh j'ai qua: quarante-huit ans/
F: quarante-huit?
K: oui/
F: sawa mi/ quarante-huit: sawa mi/
K oui/
F: eeeh: donc: mais bengine beko: banaisha kukomea zaidi/
N and K: oui/
K: [overlapping] oui oui: bamingi une cinquantaine d'année/
N: ...?... aah: wazee:
K: baba...
N: soixante:
K: ah: mm: non: une cinqantaine d'années/
N: na Baba Matofali na mi:
K: oui/
N: na: na Baba Lukusa/ namujua: sisi/ ba: bangine wote ni bantu ya: moins: moins de cinquante ans/
F: moins de cinquante ans?
K: oui/
N: eh?
K: ndiyo/ na c'est vrai/
N: une quarantaine/
K: c'est vrai/ oui/ une quarantaine d'années/
F: mais: paka mama moya tu?
N: eh: ule mama: kwa sababu: eh: baba wake alikuwa nayee mu conseil central/
F: eheh/
N: alikuwa mu sécrétariat: yee Baba Joseph Kashala: alikufa/ mais kwa kuona juhudi ya mama iliendelea kufika kila mara tunafanya kusanyiko:
K: ah/
N: njo tulisema:
K: oui bien: question yako:
F: oui/
K: mais: sisi: bamama yetu:
F: mm/
N: oui/
K: ...?...beko obligées vile vile/
N: automatiquement:
K: kuwa na sisi mu maréunions/
N: bababa bote benye kuwa mu conseil central...
K: [overlapping] ...?...mama/
N: ...automatiquement bamama/
F: ça c'est très important/
N: baba et mama:
K: eheh/
N: baba et mama:
K: aah et mama/
F: ni vile unaona?
N: ahah/
F: ...?...
K: ...?... question yako/
N: oui oui/
K: eeh/
N: ndiyo/ mm/
K: non: ça c'est ...
N: ...non...
K: ...?... automatiquement/
N: [overlapping] c'est une question capitale/
F: [overlapping]...?...
N: ah oui/
F: oui oui/
N: mm/
F: ah voilà/
N: mm/ ule tulimutaja kwa kuwa:
F: sawa: anabakia veuve/
N: veuve oui/ ah/
F: unas: tunasema: tunataya namna gani?
N: mjane/
F: mujane?
N: mujane/
K: eeh/
N: mujane/
F: mujane
N: mm mm/
F: njo ile/ bon/ eh? si unaona?
N: c'est ça/
F: wavijana muko naye:
N: mm/ si si si/ et:
F: tena minaona ni bantu ya: enfin: [pauses] bantu wa kazi ya mikono: wa:
N: mm/
F: universitaires: wa:
K: mm/
N: sociétes:
F: wa namna yo: wa sociétés: wa namna yote/
K: mm/ wote beko/ mm/
F: bon/ kumbe:
N: tuko na ungine tena: eh? vile mambo ya études:
F: eh/
N: tuko na universitaire moya tena: eh: anatoka Kindu/
F: Kindu...?.../
N: ah: yeye: eh: ni muntu wa Kindu/
F: mm/
N: vile vile muntu wa Kambelembele/
F: Kambelembele: oui oui oui/
N: eh/ eh/
F: ngambo ya Arabes/
N: Maniema: eheh/
F: oui oui/
N: eeh/
F: ya waSwahili/
N: eh oui: c'est ça/ na: ana: alikuwa préfet: [hesitating] kuuu: eeeh: ka: Kali:
K: Kalima/
N: Kalima/
F: mu: Kinshasa?
K: non non: Kalima c'est à cent kilomètres de Kindu vers Bukavu/
N: [overlapping] ...? mm/
F: ah bon/
K: à rive: sur la rive de la...
N:[overlapping] ...?... ya mambo: ya chose:
K: Cimétain/
F: ah oui oui/
N: aah/
F: oui oui/
N: na: anatoka kazi: ni baba wa Jamaa: tuko naye hapa: iko anatafuta kazi:
F: mm/
N: hii ni universitaire: alimaliza: alifanya campus ya hapa akamaliza: alikwenda: Bukavu: mm? anafanya nani ya Institut Supérieur na Bukavu:
F: mm/
N: na kiisha: ana: ingia tena université na: na Kisangani/
F: ahah/
N: et: anamaliza/ et: iko: iko pédagogue/
F: pédagogue?
N: ah oui/
F: pédagogue/
N: eh/ na sasa iko iko anatafuta kazi/
F: eh/
N: mm/ mm/
K: iko: iko pédagogue/
F: mm/
N: iko hapa: iko universitaire: iko hapa na bibi yake: ana: anatafuta kazi/ iko baba wa Jamaa/ [claps] universitaire/
F: très bien/
N: anapenda sana: anatumika na juhudi ya kweli kweli/
F: mm/
N: mm/ na hasa tunamuweka: mu: mu kazi ya paroisse: iko lecteur/
F: lecteur/
N: oui iko anasoma muzuri sana: naexpliquer muzuri sana/
K: [overlapping] mm/
N: muzuri ya clair eheh/ ni baba wa kiSwahili sana/
F: aah Swahili yake sana/
N: kiSwahili ooh ya kule ni sana eh/
F: ndiyo/
N: na un naona: twiko na...
F: ...jina yake ni nini?
N: mélange/ ni Baba: Muchanga/
F: Muchanga/
N: eheh/
F: Muchanga/
N: eheh/
F: Muchanga/

11. Fine, let's see. [pauses] Ah, when I see the names (of members of the council) – you know that in the past many said the Jamaa was an affair of people from Kasai.
N: Mm. Yes.
F: If you want to I could stop (recorder).[14] But this kind of talk seems to have it wrong. When I look at the names of (members of) the comité central I see Kapenda.
N: Mm.
F: That looks like Lunda.
N: He is a Lunda.
F: Nkondo is from the Kasai.
N: Kasai.
F: Mwenda is a Yeke.
N: Mm, yes.
F: Kaba.
N: Mm, a Kasaian.
F: A Kasaian. Lukusa, a Kasaian.
N: Kasai?
F: (What about) Kalala?
N: The one who is called Kalala[15]?
F: (He could be) from Katanga or from Kasai?
N: Kalala, the one who work at SCNZ, yes, (the one responsible for) finance.
K: That one is fron Kasai.
F: Banyingela?
N: Kasai.
F: Kung? Lunda.
N: Lunda.
K: Lunda, mm.
F: Kamanga.
N: Kasai.
F: Matofali?
N: Eh, Lunda.
K: ...?...
N: Yes.
F: Lunda. And Kapoya?
N: A Luba from Shaba.
F: A Luba from Shaba?
K: Mm.
F: So...
N: (The Jamaa) belongs to all the people. It's true, isn't it?
K: It's true, isn't it?
N: It is universal.
F: Yes.
F: So that is true. But I have another observation. I see that most of you are rather old – [to K] not you, you are young. You are the youngster on the council.
K: Yes but I am forty-eight.
F: Forty-eight?
K: Yes.
F: Same as me. Forty-eight, the same as me.
K: Yes.
F: Still, the others are getting on in years.
N and K: Yes.
K: [overlapping] Yes, many are in their fifties.
N: Ah, (some) are old.
K: Baba...
N: (Around) sixty.
K: Well, no, in their fifties.
N: (Except) Baba Matofali and me.
K: Yes.
N: And Baba Lukusa, I know him. We (are older). All the others are younger than fifty.
F: Younger than fifty?
K: Yes.
N: Am I right?
K: Yes, that's true.
N: In their forties.
K: That's true, yes, in their forties.
F: But (there is another thing), only one mama?[16]
N: Well, this mama is on the list because her husband was on the conseil central.
F: I see.
N: He was a secretary, Baba Joseph Kashala, but he died. But when we saw the effort his wife made to continue and attend every meeting...
K: Ah.
N: ...we said.
K: Or maybe, (to answer) your question...
F: Yes.
K: ... our wives...
F: Mm.
N: Yes.
K: ...are also obliged...
N: Automatically.
K: attend meetings together with us.
N: Every baba who is on the conseil central...
K: [overlapping] (Comes with his) mama.
N: ...comes automatically with his mama.
F: That is very important.
N: Baba and mama.
K: Yes.
N: Baba and mama.
K: Yes, (baba) and mama.
F: Is that how you see it?
N: Yes.
F: ...?...
K: (That was) your question.
N: Yes.
K: Right.
N: Yes, mm.
K: No, that is something...
K: That goes without saying.
N: (overlapping) That is a very important question.
F: [overlapping] ...?...
N: Ah, yes.
F: Yes.
N: Mm.
F: There we are.
N: Mm. The one we talked about being (alone)...
F: ... she is a widow.
N: A widow, yes.
F: How do we say this (in Swahili).
N: Mjane.
F: Mujane?
N: Mujane.
K: Yes.
N: Mujane.
F: Mujane.
N: Mm, mm.
F: That's it. Fine. You see, don't you?[17]
N: That's it.
F: So, (among the council members) you have younger people.
N: Mm, yes, and...
F: I also see people who do manual work and...
N: Mm.
F: graduates. People....
K: Mm.
N: ... (employed by) companies.
F: (Employed y) companies – all sorts of people.
K: Mm, they're all there, mm.
F: Alright, so...
N: Talking (about people with an) education, there is another one with us, right?
F: Yes.
N: We have one university graduate who comes from Kindu.
F: Kindu.
N: Yes, he is a man from Kindu.
F: Mm.
N: And also one from Kambelembele.
F: Kambelembele – yes.
N: Yes.
F: The region of the Arabs.
N: Maniema, yes.
F: Yes.
N: Yes.
F: Of the Swahili.
N: Yes, that's it. He used to be prefect [hesitating] in, where again? In Ka...
K: Kalima.
N: Kalima.
F: In Kinshasa?[18]
K: No, no. Kalima is one hundred kilometers away from Kindu, in the direction of Bukavu.
N: [overlapping] Eh, mm.
F: I see.
K: On the banks, the banks of the...
N: [overlapping] (Employed by), what was it again?
K: Cimétain (mining company).
F: Yes.
N: Ah.
F: Yes.
N: He quit the job. He is here with us now, a baba of the Jamaa, looking for work.
F: Mm.
N: He is a university graduate. After he had finished at the campus here he went to Bukavu, mm? (There) he studied at the Institut Supérieur (Pédagogique) of Bukavu.
F: Mm.
N: And after that he enrolled also in the university of Kisangani.
F: I see.
N: And he finished (there). He is an educator.
F: An educator?
N: Yes.
F: An educator.
N: Yes, and now he is looking for work.
F: Yes.
N: Mm, mm.
K: He is an educator.
F: Mm.
N: Now he is here with his wife, looking for work. He is a baba of the Jamaa, [claps] with a university degree.
F: Very good.
N: He really loves it and does truly remarkable work.
F: Mm.
N: Mm. Right now we have him do parish work, he is a lector, (a scripture reader).
F: A lector.
N: Yes, he reads (the scriptures) and explains them very well.
K: [overlapping] Mm.
N: Well and clearly, yes. He is a baba with an excellent command of Swahili.
F: Ah, Swahili is his strength.
N: The Swahili from there (in the North) is very good, yes.
F: Yes.
N: So you see, (the Swahili) we have (here)...
F: ...what's his name?
N: a mixture. It is Baba Muchanga.
F: Muchanga.
N: Yes.
F: Muchanga.
N: Yes.
F: Muchanga.

12. F: bon/ tunafika sasa na: na subdivisions: na minaona: muko paka na secteurs ya: sawa cités réconnues/ Gécamines/ hakuna: secteurs?
N: ndani ya ...?...
K: ...iko mu ...?.... ya Katuba/
N: aah: ni secteur ya Katuba:
K: [overlapping] ...?... divisions ya diocèse/ ya diocèse/
F: aah: voilà/
K: haina subdivisions administratives/
F: [overlapping] administratives hapana/
K: ni subdivisions diocesaines/
N: [overlapping] diocesaines/
F: mm/
N: mm/
F: na bale bantu mu ma: nani: mu ma: nani: ma...
K: kama unapenda:
F: potopot: ma: macités mu potopoto? sawa munasema nini: ma:
K: mabidonvilles/
F: mabidonvilles eh/
N: mm/
K: kama unapenda: tunaweza kupatia maparoisses: eh: par secteur/
F: ah hii: non non haina nécessaire/
N: mm/
F: haina nécessaire/
N: donc: eh...
F: ...secteur: njo division ya: yaaa:
N: ya ya ya: diocèse/
F: [overlapping] ah ya diocèse/
N: c'est ça/ oui oui/
K: voilà/ voilà/
N: bantu ya: eeh: Gécamines: Karavia: beko ndani/
K: ya secteur...
N: ya secteur ya Katuba/
F: mm/
N: bote kule/ bote/
F: lakini kwa: kwa secteurs: donc kila secteur iko na paroisses yake:
N and K: mm/
N: iko na paroisses sept: six: ça dépend/
K: ...?...
F: sasa: manani: maresponsables ya wa secteurs ah?
N: ndiyo/
F: ...adjoints/ munamupata namna gani? muko na élections?
K: ndiyo/ tuliprocéder namna hii/ tulifika: tuliita maparoisses yote ya secteur:
F: mm/
K: eeh: tunaprocéder ku: mavotes/
F: mm/
K: njo ile tulifanya mbele/
N: mm/
K: lakini expérience ile: ilionyesha potopoto mingi/
N: mm/
K: kiisha yake:
F: walikuwa macandidats mingi?
K: wacandidats mingi: course au pouvoir hivi na hivi:
F: oui/
N: mm/
K: kiisha: kwa sababu conseil central: ni jicho ya askofu:
N: mm/
F: yee: ananommer:
K: sisi: ndiyo/ conseil central:
N: [overlapping] conseil central:
K: alikamata sasa: mupango ya: ku: ona ni nani anaenea kusimamia secteur: alinommer/
N: mm/
K: d'office/
N: mm/
K: alors: hivi hakuwa tena: makelele hapana/
N and F: eheh/
K: sababu alikuwa na décision ya conseil central/
N: mm/
K: na bote baliitikiia/
N: [overlapping]...? moyen ya wababa wa njia ya tatu wa bale:
F: c'est ça/
N: tunazungumuza nabo:
K: eheh/
N: na tunanommer/
F: mm/
K: kubeba moya:
N: ah mm/
K: sasa kiisha yee anfanya comité yake/
N: mm/
F: mais mu niveau na: ya paroisse: vile vile muko na: na: na nani: responsable: adjoint: etcetera/
K: oui/ mu niveau ya paroisse ni bo benyewe: bababa na bamama...
F: ...banasikilizana/
K: tunasikilizana:
N: tunasikilizana/
K: banachagua nani anaweza kusimamia:
F: eeh/
K: eeh: nkundi yetu ya Jamaa/
N: mm/
K: sababu kila curé anaombaka: kila nkundi mu paroisse yake:
N: eheh/
K: ilete: musimamizi/
N: eeh/ ao kama iko na mambo: anasema: nitaita nani?
K: eheh/
N: hivi: eh? hatutakwenda wababa na wamama bote: eko napashwa kwenda: eeh: ao deux couples:
F: mm/
N: kwenda kumuexpliquer: curé: ce qui a que ne vas pas/
K: par exemple...?...
N: ao kama curé:
K: ...conseil paroissal:
N: ahah/
K: mensuel:
N: mm/
K: banaita: musimamizi wa kila nkundi/
F: mm/
K: c'est pourquoi: il est vraiment important que mu chaque: mu kila paroisse: kila nkundi akuwe na musimamizi wake/
N: mm/
K: bo benyewe wanasikilizana/
N: mm: mm/
F: musimamizi ni responsable?
K: mm/
N: responsable/ ikiwa eeh: matata:
F: mm/
N: entre le curé/
F: oui/
N: na wa: na Jamaa/
K: ...?...
F: eheh/
N: kumbe ile conseil: ya Jamaa: ya paroisse: inapashwa kwenda:
F: [overlapping] kwenda/
N: inapashwa kufwata:
F: [overlapping] ndiyo/
N: mambo ile/
F: nd: ah: yea/
N: kutengeneza kupata anaishe curé na ule:
F: ndiyo/
N: membre wa Jamaa/
F: ndiyo/
N: kuyua kitu gani/ kama mambo inaba: iko nguvu: au niveau yabo: banasema na bamembres de secteur/ kama membres de secteur habeweze ku: ?kumaya kufanya ile conseil: mambo iko nguvu: banacourir kwa conseil central/
F: mm/
N: na conseil central:
K: njo: organe suprême:
N: ahah/
K: ya nkundi/
N: ya nkundi/
K: kama conseil central na yee anaona asema biko nguvu zaidi:
N: ahah/
K: finalement anasoumettre kwa askofu/
N: ah kwa askofu/ ba...
K: ...askofu wenyewe...
N: ...?... à travers les...
K: par le canal...?...
N: les les les: les délégués/
K: ...?...
N: délégués ya askofu/

12. F: Alright, now we get to subdivisions. I see you only have secteurs in (officially) recognized parts of the city. At the Gécamines workers' settlement, are there no secteurs.
N: In the ...?...
K: (The Gécamines settlement) belong to Katuba.
N: Yes, it's in the secteur of Katuba.
K: [overlapping] (Secteurs) are divisions of a diocese.
F: Ah, there we are.
K: They are not administrative subdivisions.
F: [overlapping) Not administrative.
K: They are subdivisions of a diocese.
F: Mm.
N: Mm.
F: And what about the people who live in...
K: If you like...
F: the squatters' towns, what do you call them?
K: Bidonvilles.
F: Bidonvilles, yes.
N: Mm.
K: If you like we can give you (a listing of) parishes by secteur.
F: Ah, that no, it's not necessary.
N: Mm.
F: It's not necessary.
N: So...
F: ...secteur is a division of...
N: ...of a diocese.
F: [overlapping] Yes, a diocese.
N: That's it, yes.
K: There you are.
N: People who live in the Gécamines settlement, or in Karavia are part of...
K: Of the secteur...
N: of the secteur of Katuba.
F: Mm.
N: All who live there, all of them.
F: But as to secteurs, each of them has its parishes.
N and K: Mm.
N: It may have seven or six parishes, it depends.
K: ...?...
F: Now, those who are in charge of secteurs...
N: Yes.
F: ... (and their) assistants, how do you chose them? Do you have elections?
K: Yes. This is how we proceeded (in the past).
When we arrived we called together all the parishes of a secteur.
F: Mm.
K: Yes, and then we proceeded to the voting.
F: Mm.
K: That is what we used to do at first.
N: Mm.
K: But that experiment resulted in great confusion.
N: Mm.
K: After that...
F: Were there many candidates?
K: Many candidates and a race for power, that sort of thing.
F: Yes.
K: Finally -- because the conseil central is the bishop's eye –
N: Mm.
F: He appointed...
K: ... us, yes, to the conseil central.
N: [overlapping] conseil central.
K: Which took it upon itself to see who was capable of presiding over a secteur, after which it made the appointment.
N: Mm.
K: Officially.
N: Mm.
K: That way, there was no longer any commotion.
N and F: Yes.
K: Because it was a decision of the conseil central.
N: Mm.
K: And everyone accepted it.
N: [overlapping] With help of the babas of the third grade there...
F: That's it.
N: We talked with (the candidates).
F: Mm
N: And made the appointments.
K: Giving it to one person...
N: Ah, mm.
K: ...who would then put together a committee (to work with him).
N: Mm.
F: But on the level of the parish you also have a person in charge, his assistant, and so forth?
K: On the level of the parish, the babas and mamas themselves...
F: ...come to an understanding.
K: We understand each other.
N: We understand each other.
K: The chose someone who is able to direct...
F: Yes.
K: ...our Jamaa group.
N: Mm.
K: Because every pastor asks from every group in his parish...
N: Yes.
K: ...that it come up with a leader.
N: Yes. When he has problems he may say, whom shall I call?
K: Yes
N: In that case, not all of us babas and mamas will go (to him), (the leader) should do that, or couples.
F: Mm.
N: Go to the pastor and explain to him what went wrong
K: For example...?...
N: ...or when the pastor (attends)...
K: ... the conseil paroisssal...
N: Yes.
K: (Which comes together) every month.
N: Mm.
K: (That is) when the leaders of every group are called together.
F: Mm.
K: That's why it is really important that in every parish every group has its leader.
N: Mm.
K: They are the ones who come to an understanding.
N: Mm, mm.
F: Leader means the person who is the responsable?[19]
N: Responsable. Should there be trouble...
F: Mm.
N: ... between the pastor...
F: Yes/
N: ... and the people of the Jamaa.
K: ...?...
N: Then this conseil paroissal must make a move...
F: [overlapping] ...move...
N: ...and follow up on...
F: Yes.
N: ...the matter.
F: [overlapping] Yes.
N: Take care of it so that things get settled between the pastor...
F: Yes.
N: ...and the Jamaa member concerned.
F: Yes.
N: Find out what (the conflict) is about. If, on their level, the matter proves too difficult they inform the members of the (conseil du) secteur. If the members of the (conseil du) secteur can't come up with advice either because the matter is too difficult, they take recourse to the conseil central.
F: Mm.
K: That is the highest organ.
N: Yes.
K: Of (the Jamaa) as a group.
N: Of the group.
K: Should the conseil central conclude that this is something too difficult...
N: Yes.
K: ...then the matter is finally submitted to the bishop.
N: To the bishop.
K: The bishop himself.
N: (This is done) by...
K: ...via the delegates.
K: ...?..
N: The bishop's delegates.

13. F: sasa: ndiyo/ bon: mu: mikusanyo/ muko na ordre du jour?
K: ...?...
F: zamani bale: ilikuwa vile/
N: mm/
F: ba: Jamaa balifika mu nani:
N: mm/
F: mu salle fulani:
N: mm/
F: mbele:
N: mm/
F: mulisala: tena: uliongojea kiloko:
N: mm/
F: baba moya: anasimama:
N: mm/
F: anaanza kufundisha/
N: mm/
F: mwisho yake baba ingine anaweza kufundisha/ tena: wimbo:
N: mm/
F: kusala: njo mwisho/
K: sasa: sas...
F: ...njo: minakumbuka ile: kilikuwa vile/
N: sasa yote: iko: organisé/
F: oui/
N: iko: yote: inapashwa kuwa: programmé/
K: programmé/
F: programmé/ ordre du jour/
N: eeh: eh/
F: d'avance?
K: ordre du jour/
N: par avance: oui/
F: ah/
N: tukiita kila mukusanyiko: hata wa paroisse/ na baba: banapashwa kuwa na: ordre de jour: ya mafundisho:
F: hata mu paroisse?
N: hata mu paroisse/ banapashwa kuwa na ordre ya jour ya mafundisho ya kusema:
F: leo:
N: mu siku fulani: ni mafundisho fulani/
F: [overlapping] ya malaika:
N: aaah/
F: ao na umuntu:
N: oui/ oui oui/
F: ao:
N: pages elle mêmes/ kila paroisse paroisse anapashwa kuwa na programme yake/ hivi: anapashwa kuyua asema tutafundisha nini/
F: mm/
N: bado kujua: ah: batarépéter: batarépéter: kama inaisha: ile mafundisho inajulikana: na: banaandika programme ingine/
F: mm/
N: kwa kila paroisse/ conseil vile vile ya secteur: namna moja/
F: mm/
N: jusqu'au conseil central:
F: oui/ oui/
N: ni paka na programme: et: mu: munapokuwa programmé ordre de jour/
F: ah/
K: mm/ eh: ile: tunaipata mu article cinq:
N: mm/
K: règlement d'ordre intérieur ya Jamaa:
N: mm/
K: hii inasema: kwa kuwa mafundisho ya Jamaa: ni yenye kugawanyika: katika vipande vitatu/ wababa na wamama wenye kufundisha: wanapashwa kutengeneza pamoja na curé: wa: wa programme: eh wa: na: na curé wao: programme ya mafundisho/
F: eh/
K: ni kusema: siku: saa: na fasi/
F: mm/
K: kwa mufano: mafundisho général ya wote pamoja: siku yao/ mafundisho ya vipande: katika nyumba: mbali mbali: za paroisse/
F: ahah: minaona/
K: mm/
F: minaona/
N: yote: yote iko programmé/
F: yote iko programmé/
N: na ordre de jours: kwa à touts les niveaux/ à touts les niveaux/
F: oui/
N: paroisse: secteur: et: conseil central/

13. F: Now, alright. (When you hold) meetings, do you follow an agenda?
K: ...?...
F: In the old day it went like this.
N: Mm.
F: The members of the Jamaa came together...
N: Mm.
F: In a certain hall.
N: Mm.
F: First of all...
M: Mm.
F: prayed, then you waited a little.
N: Mm.
F: Until a baba stood up...
N: Mm.
F: ...and began to teach.
N: Mm.
F: After that another baba might teach. Then there was singing...
N: Mm.
F: ...praying, and that was the end.
K: Nowadays....
F: That is how I remember it.
N: Now everything is organized.
F: Yes.
N: Everything must be programmed.
K: Programmed.
F: Programmed. (There must be an) agenda.
N: Yes.
F: (Set) in advance?
K: And agenda.
N: (Set) in advance, yes.
F: Ah.
N: Whenever we call a meeting, even on the parish level, a baba must have an agenda of teaching.
F: Even in a parish?
N: Even in a parish. They must have an agenda of what is going to be taught.
F: On that day.
N: On a certain day a certain (chapter) will be taught.
F: [overlapping] The one about the angels, (for instance).
N: Yes.
F: Or about umuntu.
N: Yes, yes.
F: Or....
N: Even the pages (are given).[20] Every parish has to have its program. That way they should know what is going to be taught.
F: Mm.
N: Until it is known they'll keep repeating it. When it gets to the point that a (chapter) of the teaching is known they write another program.
F: Mm.
N: For every parish. The same goes for the conseil du secteur.
F: Mm.
N: Up to the conseil central.
F: Yes.
N: Only following a program and you have to have a programmed agenda.
F: Ah.
K: Mm. We find this in article 5.
N: Mm.
K: Of the règlement d'ordre intérieur[21] of the Jamaa.
N: Mm.
K: There it says that the teaching of the Jamaa is divided in three parts. The babas and mamas who do the teaching must clear the program of teaching with their pastor.
F: Yes.
K: That is to say, set the day, the hour, and the place.
F: Mm.
K: For instance, there is a day for general teachings destined for all (members). The teaching of (one of the parts) takes place in different homes in the parish.[22]
F: Ah, I see.
N: Everything, everything is programmed.
F: Everything is programmed.
N: (Following) agendas, on all levels. On all levels.
F: Yes.
N: Paroisse, secteur, and conseil central.

14. F: mm/ mm/ tena assemblée mis: trimestrielle: ni vile vile?
K: ndiyo/
N: ni vile vile/ mm/
F: mais quand même ni sawa: fête kiloko: non? uu: unaimba: una:
N: ah oui oui/
K: ndiyo/
N: ile: ni ya: na uzoezo yetu: njo kazi yangu:
F: mm/
N: pale tunafika: eh?
F: mm/
N: tuna: tunasali: tunaimba: na: kiisha: tunaprogrammer ordre de jour/ na: [claps] eeh: tunatia: eeh: mwalimu/
F: mm/
N: anaanza kufundisha/
F: ni kusema muko sawa na titre ya mwalimu? ingine...?...
N: mwalimu ni:
K: non non/
N: mwalimu ni:
F: mwenye kufundisha/
N: [overlapping] ile ni: baba: baba na mama fulani/ mwenye kuwa nommé/
F: [overlapping] kila baba:
N: eheh/
F: ah bon/
N: oh: ile iko: iko nommé/ haikuwa bule hapana/
F: [overlapping] anapashwa kuwa ma: na wa: wa njia ya tatu?
K: ndiyo/
N: ni wa njia ya tatu/
F: mais kila habawezi kufundisha/
N: non non/ normalement/ bangine banaweza ku:
K: eeeh:
N: kudialoguer/ ku: fanya: kuuliza: kuwa expliquer: mais alakini: ule: anapashwa kufundisha ni baba na mama wa njia ya tatu: bakuwa: anapewa: eeh: ru: ruhusa ma: ma askofu/
K: voilà/ permettez: eh: ile nilisema mbele ya programme ni article quinze/
N: mm/
K: ya: règlement d'ordre intérieur/
F: eeh/
K: hii ulizo yako ya sasa: inaungukia mu article ya treize:
N: mm/
K: ya règlement d'ordre intérieur/
N: mm/
K: wanani wanaweza kufundisha/
N: mm/
K: a: kila baba ao mama wa njia ya tatu:
N: alichaguliwa: na wa njia ya tatu wa paroisse yao:
N: mm/
K: pamoja na curé wao: ni wale: wanaweza kufundisha/
F: eyo/
N: au niveau de paroisse/
K: b: katika mafundisho ya wote: baba ao mama: yoyote: hata asiwa njia ya tatu: anaweza kufundisha/
F: mm/
K: c'est: padri: anaweza pia kufundisha: katika mafundisho: haizuru ya njia gani/
F: mm/
K: donc c'est clair/
F: c'est clair oui/
N: ...?...iko prévu na règlement d'ordre intérieur/

14. F: Mm, mm. Then, is it the same with the assemblée trimestrielle?
K: Yes.
N: It's the same, mm.
F: But in spite (of all the regulations) a meeting is like a small celebration, no? You sing, you...
N: Ah, yes.
K: Yes.
N: That is our custom. It is my job.
F: Mm.
N: Once we get to a place, you understand?
F: Mm.
N: We pray, we sing; then we set the agenda. And then [claps] we nominate a teacher.
F: Mm.
N: And he begins to teach.
F: Does that mean that you use "teacher" as a title.
N: "Teacher" means...
K: No, no.
N: "Teacher" means...
F: ...the one who teaches.
N: [overlapping] The baba and mama who gets nominated.
F: [overlapping] Any baba.
N: Yes.
F: Ah, alright.[23]
N: But he is nominated, (a person cannot start teaching) just like that.
F: [overlapping] Must he be of the third grade?
K: Yes.
N: He is of the third grade.
F: Still, not everyone can teach (at a meeting).
N: No, no, not normally. Others can...
K: Yes.
N: ... begin a dialog, ask for explanations. But the one who does the teaching must be a baba and mama of the third grade. They have permission from the bishop.
K: There you are. Allow me, what I said before regarding the program is (stated) in article 15.
N: Mm.
K Of the règlement d'ordre intérieur.
F: Yes.
K: The question you ask now falls under article 13.
N: Mm.
K: Of the règlement d'ordre intérieur.
N: Mm.
K: (Stating) who is authorized to teach.
N: Mm.
K: A. Every baba or mama of the third grade.
N: Chosen from the members of the third grade of their parish.
N: Mm.
K: Together with their pastor. They are the ones who may teach.
F: I see.
N: On the level of the parish.
K: B. As regards teaching address to all (members), Every baba or mama, even if they are not of the third grade, may teach.
F: Mm.
K: That is to say, a priest may of course teach, no matter what his grade is.
F: Mm.
K: So this is clear.
F: This is clear, yes.
N: It is stated by the règlement d'ordre intérieur.

15. F: bon/ aah/ fêtes/ ya: juu ya fêtes/
N: mm/
F: fêtes inaachana kwa ma: mm: mikusanyiko ya namna ingine ya namna gani?
K: kwa mufano: eeeh: fête ya Jamaa:ya kuuliz:
wa kujulikana kwa Jamaa katika eklesia katolika:
F: oui/
K: ile: tunaitanaka sisi wote: fasi moya: banatayarisha byote: chakula...
F: tena ku: ku nani: ku archéveché?
K: normalement: paka kule/ njo tunapashawa mare...?...
N: yee tunafanya jusqu'à présent: paka:
K: mimbo: mafundisho kidogo: puis kiisha yake baraka ya padri: tunakwenda/
F: chakula: na:
K: byote tulitayarisha kule/
N: mm/
F: na m: ya: ya: ya: ya kufa ya Père Placide:
K: eh: ya kufa ya Père Placide...
N: [overlapping] eheh/
K: ...banafanya misa: moja:
N: na SNCZ:
K: kwa sisi wote/
F: eheh/
K: baJamaa bote: pamoja na padri:
N: misa: na mafundisho:
K: misa na mafundisho: kiisha: kunaisha/ méditation/
F: mm/
K: juu ya siku kuu ya Jamaa Takatifu: eeh: vu: conjoncture actuelle:
N: actuelle:
K: tunaiorganiser mu kila paroisse/ kwa sababu: ni fête ya jamaa muzima/
F: mm/
K: bwana: bibi: na batoto/
N: na batoto oui/
K: eh:
N: ni fête ya nyumba/
F: eheh eyo/
N: fête ya nyumba/
F: mm/
K: moyens de transport iko très coûteux:
F: c'est ça/
K: kwa kuweza: kurassembler: mafoyers yote fasi moya/ wiko vraiment difficile:
N: mm/
K: ni ile tunaombaka mu kila paroisse: ba: organiser: fête moya munene sana:
N: eh/
K: ya nyumba mu paroisse yabo/
N: yabo/
F: mm/
K: sababu mu paroisse banaweza kuleta na batoto yabo: babibi ba ule...
N: ...bwana: pamoja:
K: ule pamoja: kuita curé: kuita ba: délégués ba ma: mankundi yote: ya ...?...
N: ...?...
K: maparoisses yote: mankundi ingine: kufanya shangwe mukubwa sana/
N: mm/
F: shangwe tu/
N: mm/
F: eeeh: kiisha congrès annuel/ minaona ni sawa congrès scientifique/
N: mm/
F: [laughs]
K: ile congrès scientifique ni congrès annuel: namna: ya ku: passer en révue: eh: situation générale ya nkundi ya Jamaa:
F: eheh
K: namna inaendelea:
F: eheh/
K: kupata madoléances: na mwendo fasi ingine ingine: mais hii: dernier congrès: congrès quatre: ya mille neuf cent quatre-vingt-quatre: ilikuwa: exceptionnel/ ilikuwa vraiment: dialogue/
F and N: mm/
N: eh? kila moja alipashwa kuparticiper ku kusema/
N: mm/
K: kulikuwa sorte ya questionnaire:
N: mm/
K: eh? et puis tunafanya macarrefours/
N: [overlapping] ...?...
K: tunapata majibu mbali mbali:
F: mm/
K: tunadécortiquer tunafanya mise en commun:
N: oui/
K: ni kule tulitosha hata: document hii: hii kidogo: [shows document]
F: ahah/
K: entitulé congrès: quatre/
F: ah bon/
K: c'est ça/
F: mu: muko na maexemplaires: ingine?
K: congrès quatre:
N: tunapata hii...?.../
K: nasikia tu utapata:
N: oui/
K: utapata...
F: ça va: ça va: ça va/
N: mm/ mm/
F: [to N] baba ulitaka kusema kintu?
N: oui oui/ na: eh: nilitaka kusema: paka ile baba: yee eko naeleza: eeh: principe yetu tena/
F: mm/
N: kila mukusanyiko mukubwa: congrès: ao mukusanyiko ya: ya: mm: [hesitates] nini tena? tunaitaka: tunaitaka badélégués ba mankundi ingine/
K: mankundi oui/
F: ahah/
N: kila mara/
K: na tunaassocier:
N: kuna bainvités/
F: banasimama: buna:
N: aah/
F: banafanya: iko introduction:
K: tunaita na baprêtres bote: baréligieux réligieuses:
F: banafika?
K: ...?... twende Jamaa hivi na hivi: mais:
N: ...habafikake/
K: habafikake/ congrès ya kwanza: na ya pili: kulikuwa baprêtres bengine:
N: ah voilà bangine/
K: aah: na babikira bengine: mais hii ingine yote: [claps] japo vile tunatuma mainvitations...?.../
N: tunabaita: habafike hapana/
F: tena estime: estimation yenu: juu ya: ya: ngapi bana: banafika kule: tuseme ku: ku assemblée plénière: ku: ku fête ao ku cong: enfin/ eeeh: [hesitates]hiii mukusanyo ya yo: ya ya bote: assemblée trimestrielle par exemple?
K: assemblée trimestrielle tunaweza kuestimer: eeh: plus ou moins: eh: eh: peut-être:
N: baJamaa: ao ba...?...
K: baJama/ baJamaa/
N: oh/ eeh: trimestrielle? eh: enfin: c'est: c'est presque tout le monde/
K: oui tunaweza kuestimer: à peu près:
N: [overlapping] estimer:
K: cinq à six cents:
N: eh:
K: foyers/
N: couples eh?
F: foyers?
K: oui/ cinq à six cents couples/
N: mm/
F: mm/
K: cinq à six cents couples/
F: minanona/
K: juu ya congrès: ile utaona: utapata ku maraports ya congrès/ tuko na ma:
F: ahah/
K: ma: ma: maraports ya macongrès yote/
N: ina: na...
K: ...kama kutakuwa namna ya kufanya réproduction: ba...?...
F: [overlapping] ndiyo/ nita: nita: nitapata maneno: namna: hata ku: hata ku ville: hata ku: eeh: Gécamines/
K: oui ku Gécamines c'est plus facile:
F: oui oui:
K: on peut photocopier ça:
F: oui oui/
K: ...?...ya congrès yote quatre/
F: mbon: munasi: saidia kweli/
K: ...?...
F: mais ina: minaona: [pauses] nazani tuko na: na mwisho ya bande de toute façon:
N: mm/
F: [coughs] uko na mawazo ingine juu ya: ya organisation?
N: ah: juu ya organisation: mawazo yetu ingine: tunapenda hivi/ tunapenda: unaona tuliisha kufanya congrès: eh: ya Lubumbashi: congrès: na: diocèse ingine: ya Shaba: mais: tunapenda: mawazo yetu: kiisha: tutafanya congrès hata na ma: diocèses ingine/
F: mm/
N: yashipo kuwa ya Shaba/
K: ya Zaire/
N: si possible: tufika ku...
F: ...national/
N: ...congrès: national/ nyo but yetu tunafukuza/ nyo but yetu tunafukuzia/
F: mu: munaona mu inchi ingine: muko Jamaa?
N: eeeh:
F: sawa à l'ext: à: aaa: mu bulaya ao mu Afrika?
N: eeh: mu: mu Afrika: oh: tunaisha kusikia: paka ku Ruanda Urundi:
K: ku Ruanda: ngambo ya Ruanda:
N: eeh/
K: na Zambie: nazani:
N: eheh/
K: ngambo ya Zambie:
N: tunasikia mu Zambie vile vile:
K: eh: Zambie:
N: mm/ eeh: mm/ [pauses] ts: ingine hatu: hatujue/
K: paka ile:
N: mm/
K: njo tuko au courant/
N: mm/ tunasikia eh/
F: mu bulaya?
N: mu bulaya: eeh:
F: hamujue/
K: hatujue sana sana:
N: [overlapping] hatujue lakini: ule baba ya Kamina/ padri ya Kamina/
K: Père ?Eugène [recording ends]

15. F: Alright. Let's see. Celebrations. Yes, about celebrations.
N: Mm.
F: How do celebrations differ from other kinds of meetings.
K: For example, (there is) the Jamaa festival which is intended to publicize the Jamaa in the Catholic Church.
F: Yes.
K: To that one all of us are invited to come to a certain place. Everything is prepared, the food...
F: Is that one also held at the archbishop's residence?
K: Normally we are held (to have our celebration) only there.
N: That's what we have been doing up to now.
K: Singing, a little teaching, after the priest's blessing we leave.
F: (There is) food.
K: We prepared everything.
N: Mm.
F: And that's how was for the anniversary of Father Placide's death.[24]
K: Yes, (to commemorate) the death of Father Placide...
N: [overlapping] Yes.
K: ... they had a mass.
N: At SNCZ settlement.
K: For all of us.
F: I see.
K: All the Jamaa people, together with a priest.
N: There was a mass and teaching.
K: A mass and teaching and, at the end, meditation.
F: Mm.
K: About feast day of the Jamaa Takatifu, well, given the current situation...
N: The current situation.
K: ...we organize it in every parish because it is a feast of the whole family[25].
F: Mm.
K: Husband, wife, and children.
N: And children, yes.
K: Yes.
N: It is a celebration of the household.
F: Yes, I see.
N: A celebration of the household.
F: Mm.
K: Transportation is very expensive.
F: That's it.
K: Getting all the households to assemble in one place is really difficult.
N: Mm.
K: That is why we ask that they should organize a big feast in every parish.
N: Yes.
K: A feast of the households of their parish.
F: Mm.
K: Because in a parish they can also bring along their children, the wives...
N: ... and also the husbands.
K: (All of them) together. Invite the pastor and delegates from all groups...
N: ...?...
K: Other groups, (from) every parish, and have a really big feast.
N: Mm.
F: Just a feast.
N: Mm.
F: Let's see, finally, there is the congrès annuel. To me it looks a bit like a scientific congress.
N: Mm.
F: [laughs]
K: That "scientific congress" is the congrés annuel. Its purpose is the review the general situation of the Jamaa.
F: Yes.
K: The progress it makes.
F: Yes.
K: To receive grievances and (see) how things went in different places. But the last congrès, the fourth, held in 1984 was exceptional. There was a real dialog.
F and N: Mm.
N: You understand? Everybody had to participate in the discussion.
N: Mm.
K: There was a sort of questionnaire.
N: Mm.
K: Right? And then we held (meetings called) crossroads.
N: [overlapping] ...?...
K: We had different kinds of responses.
F: Mm.
K: Which we analyzed in order to find out what they had in common.
N: Yes.
K: That is where this little document we put together came from. [shows document]
F: I see.
K: Titled "The fourth Congress."
F: Ah, alright.
K: That's it.
F: Do you have other copies?
K: The fourth Congress.
N: We get you one.
K: I understand. You'll get one.
N: Yes.
K: You'll get it.
F: Fine.
N: Mm, mm.
F: [to N] Baba, you wanted to say something?
N: Yes. I wanted to say more about what baba (Kamanga) explained (earlier), about a principle we have.
F: Mm.
N: Whenever an important meeting takes place, such as a congrès or – mm [hesitates] what kind of meetings are there? (Anyway) we usually invite delegates from other groups.
K: Groups, yes.
F: I see.
N: Always.
K: And we involve them.
N: They are guests.
F: They stand up...
N: Yes.
F: ... and are introduced.
K: We invite also all the priests and members of religious orders.
F: Do they come?
K: (They may say) let's go to the Jamaa, but...
N: ...they don't come.
K: They don't come. At the first and second congress some priests attended.
N: Yes, some of them.
K: Yes, and some nuns. But at all the others, [claps] although we sent out invitations...
N: We invited them, they did not come.
F: Another thing, how many do you estimate come to the assemblée plénière, the feast, or the congrès. For example, to plenary meetings like the assemblée trimestrielle?
K: For the assemblée trimestrielle we can estimate, well, approximately, perhaps...
N: (You mean) members of the Jamaa or ...?...?
K: Members of the Jamaa. Members of the Jamaa.
N: Oh, the assemblée trimestrielle? Well, almost everyone.
K: Yes, we can estimate about...
N: [overlapping] Estimate.
K: Five to six hundred...
N: Yes.
K: ...households.
N: Couples, you understand?
F: Households?
K: Yes. Five to six hundred couples.
N: Mm.
F: Mm.
K: Five to six hundred couples.
F: I see.
K: About the congrès, you'll see, you can get (the numbers) from the reports of the congrès. We have...
F: I see.
K: ... the reports of every congrès.
N: That is...
K: ...if they can be copied...
F: [overlapping] ...yes, I'll get (copies), either in town or at the Gécamines.
K: Yes, at the Gécamines, that's the easiest.
F: Yes.
K: One can get photocopies there.
F: Yes,
K: Of all the four congrès.
F: Fine, you are really helpful.
K: ...?...
F: But I see [pauses] I think we are at the end of the tape anyhow.
F: [coughs] Do you have some more thoughts on (the topic of) organization?
N: Ah, about other thoughts on organization – what we would like is this. You see, we have had (more than one) congrès at Lubumbashi and in some dioceses of Shaba but we think we would like to have them in other dioceses.
F: Mm.
N: Not just in Shaba.
K: In Zaire.
N: If possible, get to (organize) a ...
F: ...national....
N: ...a congrès national. That's our goal we are after. That's our goal we are after.
F: Do you see Jamaa (groups) in other countries?
N: Well.
F: Like outside (Zaire), in Europe or Africa?
N: Well, in Africa, we have heard this only about Ruanda-Urundi.
K: In Ruanda, over there in Ruanda.
N: Yes.
K: And in Zambia, I think
N: Yes.
K: Over there, in Zambia
N: We heard this about Zambia, too.
K: Yes, Zambia.
N: Mm. Well, mm, [pauses] about other (countries) we don't know.
K: Only about the ones...
N: Mm.
K: ...we are informed.
N: Mm. We heard (about them), yes.
F: (And) in Europe?
N: In Europe, well.
F: You don't know.
K: We really don't know.
N: [overlapping] We don't, but there is this baba from Kamina, a priest from Kamina.
K: Father Eugene.[26] [recording ends]


[1] I omitted a brief and somewhat confusing discussion about a document that Baba Nkondo wanted to consult first and suggested that, rather than searching for it, we should start with recording the conversation.
[2] Mistakenly I said kuchanga, put together.
[3] Mafundisho ya Eklesia Katolika. Jamaa Takatifu. Mimeographed booklet, iii+76pp (see Scan 1). The introduction begins with a letter (autograph) from Archbishop Kabanga, signed and dated 24. 8. 75.
[4] Here a reminder is due concerning the problems when it comes to translating the noun mafundisho (a plurale tantum) and the verb kufundisha. In the past I used "instruction" for the act of teaching (a genre of Jamaa discourse) and "doctrine" for that which is being taught. It is important to keep in mind that, although those terms may sometimes refer to teaching in a general sense (as part of "education"), in Jamaa usage they are understood as preparation for ritual initiation into one of three grades (njia, ways); see on this Fabian 1971:176-182 and 1974 on genres of Jamaa discourse.
[5] There was some problem with the position of the recorder.
[6] The document describing Baba Sébastien's functions in the council.
[7] Here Baba Kamanga uses a Swahili term. Notice that the list of seasons is complete but somewhat confused.
[8] We were sharing a memory from a visit I made in the sixties to the workers' settlement of the BCK railway company, called Camp Guillaume, where Baba Sébastien and Mama Thérese lead the Jamaa.
[9] Something fell down at this point and we had to interrupt Baba Nkondo. "The cleverness of whites" was a current expression often used jokingly.
[10] The verb kuvuka has many meanings. At the time I guessed it had something to do with keeping animals. Baba Nkondo did not stop to confirm this.
[11] Meaning: even if he is held up by some robbers at night.
[12] This is not quite clear. I think that my question was about what the names of members say about ethnic origins. Baba Kamanga did not take the cue. I get back to it at the beginning of the following paragraph.
[13] This is somewhat confusing; instead of "he" I should have said that Munzadi was my successor.
[14] Ethnic affiliation, especially being classified "Kasaian" was a sensitive issue, but Baba Sébastien must have given me a sign that he did not care.
[15] By using the name with the abstract prefix bu- Baba Sébastien indicates that this is a name shared by several ethnic groups.
[16] My question shows that I either did not have the official list before me or overlooked that, with two exceptions, membership in the council was in couples.
[17] Meaning: this was an important point.
[18] I was familiar with Kalima as a part of Kinshasa.
[19] I am asking whether musimamizi is the equivalent of French responsable; as my translation shows I cannot come up with a satisfying gloss in English -- leader is too informal, representative does not fit either.
[20] Presumably in the published book of approved teachings (see note 3). About the two topics of teaching I mention here, see vol. 5 of this archive.
[21] Here and later articles of a règlement d'ordre intérieur are referred to. The règlement appears on pp. 1-3 of the document cited in note 3.
[22] Though this was not spelled out for me, Baba Kamanga could assume that I knew he meant teaching leading up to each of the grades of initiation.
[23] I had been surprised at the term mwalimu being used for a person who gives instruction in Jamaa doctrine. I had never heard this before.
[24] As an example of celebrations I bring up the anniversary of Father Placide's death about which I must have learned before we had this conversation.
[25] This is a rare instance of using jamaa in the general sense it has in Katanga Swahili: a household, most often a nuclear family. This signals a significant change in Jamaa thought from earlier a fixation on couples rather families. Only small children came along to the weekly meetings of a group. The "big day" was celebrated once a year in a regional meeting at Easter.
[26] Could also be père jeune, a young priest.


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Deposited at APS: 19 April 2013