1. LANGUAGE AND CONTENT OF THE VOCABULAIRE

1. LANGUAGE AND CONTENT OF THE VOCABULAIRE

F: sawa uliisha kusome hii vocabulaire: kwa: mawazo yako unaona namna gani? ni document ya namna gani? mbele: luga: donc: kinywa: Swahili/ hii Swahili: ni Swahili ya hapa?
K: ii Swahili: iko ya hapa: mais iko Swahili ya kiLamba/
F: ya kiLamba?
L: oui parce que banamêlermêler ovyo: haina Swahili kabisa/
F: mm/
K: haina Swahili kama ya waSwahili/
F: eeh/
K: voilà/ eko bisSwahili: c'est une langue véhiculaire/
F: véhic: d'accord/
K: oui/
F: d'accord/ na tena nili: niliona kama mara ingine ulikuwa na magumo ya kusoma/ juu ya nini?
K: ni pale nalikuwa kusoma: parce-que: iko kiSwahili mubaya/
F: mm/...
K: ...?...
F: mubaya namna gani? kwa mufano/
K: kwa mufano: ni kiSwahili: haina kiSwahili kabisa/ mi niko muntu wa Tanganyika/
F: mm/
K: niko na kiSwahili ya ule mule yangu ingine/
F: mm/
K: et kiSwahili ya hapa: nasikia: lakini: nafika kitu bantu banataka kusema/
F: mm/
K: lakini naweza kutengeneza kiSwahili ya hapa/ Swahili ?yawaina kiSwahili kabisa/
F: lakini unasema niko muntu wa Tanganyika: ulizalikwa hapa?
K: nilizaliwa apa Elisabethville/
F: oui/
K: mais nilifanya miaka mingi Albertville/
F: aaah/
K: dix huit ans/
F: Kalemie/
K: Kalemie/
F: dix huit ans/
K: dis huit ans/ alors je ...?... ulimi wao/
F: kule ku: ulikuwa nani: karani?
K: nilikuwa karani ya l'état/
F: oui/
K: oui/
F: na muli: na mule una: nani: mu Albertville: mulitumia vraiment Swahili ...?
K: là: alors Kalemie: ni kiSwahili bora/
F: bon/
K: ni kiSwahili/
F: uliandika tena vilevile?
K: unandika kiSwahili? naandika kiSwahili/ vile wanaandika kiSwhahili/
F: nazani ile: ule: ule baba aliandika: vocabulaire: kama anasema: anasema bien/ mais: hakuwa na: uzoezo ya kuandika/ si unaona vile?
K: naona: ndiyo/
F: oui/
K: hakuwa na uzoezo ya kuandika hapana/ hakuwa na uzoezo ya kuandika hapana/

F: bon/ mais: sasa mu ngambo ya: nani: ya contenu/ ile: ile arisi ana: anatuleta ya hapa/ sawa: asema: ni histoire ya Elisabethville/ unaona: unaona kama: anasema kweli: anasema: ya mingi: ao?
K: anasema kweli/
F: kweli/
K: ni ...?... anasema kweli/ maneno miaka mingi na wazungu wote anataja humu: minawahamu/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ nawafahamu/
F: na ma: maévènements vilevile?
K: wakati ya évènements: wakati ya indépendence: nilikuwa à Kalemie/ sikuwa à Elisabethville/
F: non: évènements mina: mina: non/ kama minasema évènement: eeeh: nakumbuka: paka vile bitu biliii: bilifika/ asema: première...
K: ni vilevile ilikuwaka: premier bourgemestre: wa premiers commisaires: eeh: ni bote ni bya kweli/
F: ya kweli/
K: ya kweli/ maneno minawafahumu ile majina/
F: unafahamu?
K: nayafahamu/ na wote wagouverneurs: Maron: nilitumika nao/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/ wacommisaires de police: nawafahumu vilevile/
F: na bale ba...?... vilevile?
K: na ba...?... nafahamu vilevile/
F: ee/
K: nawafahamu ndiyo/ ni kweli/ wote wa premier bourgemestre wote anataja hapa: wote minawafahumu/
F: mm/ mm/
K: na Mathieu Kalenda: ni collègue wangu wa masomo/ ndiyo/ nawafahumu wote/ nawafahamu wote/
F: kumbe: unaona ni: ni document moya ...
K: ... valable/
F: valable?
K: ndiyo/
F: valable/ haikose: ts: sawa uaona: kama una: unakumbuka: ah: asema inakosa quand même: kipande moya: kipande ingine?
K: lakini anafasilia presque yote/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ anafasilia vizuri/
F: mm/
K: anafasilia vizuri/
F: bon: ile: tutaangaria mara ingine/ mbele: kugeuza tu vile mu: mu français/ kiisha: tunarudia ku contenu/ na wee uta: utaweza kuniambia mambo ya: ...?... bapersonnages banaita etcetera/ bon/

F: Now that you have read the Vocabulaire aloud, what do you think about it and how do you see it? What kind of document is it? To begin with the language, Swahili. This sort of Swahili is this the Swahili [spoken] here?
K: This Swahili is the local kind, but it is a Swahili [that comes] from the Lamba language.
F: From Lamba?
K: Yes, because they just mix [languages]; this is not really Swahili.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: It is not the Swahili of the Swahili people.
F: I see.
K: You see, there are different kinds of Swahili; this one is a vehicular language.
F: Vehicular, right.
K: Yes.
F: Also, I noticed that sometimes you had problems with the reading. How come?
K: That happened when I read [aloud]. [It is] because this is bad Swahili.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: ...?...
F: Bad in what way? For instance?
K: For instance -- this is a kind of Swahili that is not really Swahili. I come from [Lake] Tanganyika.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: My Swahili comes from there and it is different.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: As to the local Swahili, when I hear it I manage to understand what people want to say.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: But I could improve the local Swahili. Because the local Swahili is not really Swahili.
F: You say I come from Lake Tanganyika, but you were born here.
K: I was born here in Elisabethville.
F: Right.
K: But I spent many years in Albertville.
F: I see.
K: Eighteen years.
F: [In] Kalemie.
K: Kalemie.
F: Eighteen years.
K: Eighteen years, so I learned their way of speaking.
F: There you were a clerk?
K: I was a government clerk.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: And there in Albertville [Kalemie] you really employed a Swahili...
K: Well, there in Kalemie, that was "high" Swahili.
F: Fine.
K: That was Swahili.
F: And you also wrote it?
K: You wrote Swahili? [Of course] I wrote Swahili the way they write Swahili.
F: I think that the man who wrote the Vocabulaire spoke Swahili quite will but he simply was not used to writing it. Don't you also see it that way?
K: I see it, yes.
F: Right.
K: He was not used to writing it. He was not used to writing it.
F: Alright, now [let's look at] the content-side, those stories he tells us of this place, a history of Elisabethville. As you see it, does he speak the truth, does he just tell a lot [of stories], or what?
K: He speaks the truth.
F: The truth.
K: It...?... he speaks the truth. Because the many years [he covers] and all the whites he names here -- I know them.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: Yes. I know them.
F: And the events also?
K: At the time of the events, the time around independence, I was in Kalemie. I wasn't in Elisabethville.
F: No [that is not what I mean] by events. I was just thinking of [of all kinds of] things that happened. Such as, the first...
K: It is how it was -- the first mayor, the first chiefs of police, yes, all this is truthful.
F: Truthful.
K: Truthful. Because I know those names.
F: You know them?
K: I know them, and all the governors, Maron [for instance], I worked for them.
F: I see.
K: Yes. The chiefs of police, I know them, too.
F: And those ...?... also?
K: And those ...?... I also know.
F: I see.
K: I know them, yes. It's the truth. All of them, the first mayors, all the persons he names here, I know them all.
F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
K: And Mathieu Kalenda [named in the text], he was my buddy at school. Yes. I know them all. I know them all.
F: So, as you see it, this one document...
K:... the is valid.
F: Valid?
K: Yes.
F: So, from your point of view, as you remember, it has no gaps, it doesn't lack one of the other chapter?
K: He explains almost everything.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: Yes. He explains it well.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: He explains it well.
F: Alright, we'll take another look at it [later]. Before that, it's the translation into French. When that is finished we'll return to the content. You could tell me whatever pertains to ...?... the persons that are named, and so on. Alright.

2. ON COLONIAL BUREAUCRACY AND CORRUPTION
(see Vocabulaire p. 16 in facsimile: [GIF, 166 KB] or [JPEG, 253 KB], and the corresponding sections in the Shaba Swahili version)

2. ON COLONIAL BUREAUCRACY AND CORRUPTION
(see Vocabulaire p. 16 in facsimile: [GIF, 166 KB] or [JPEG, 253 KB], and the corresponding sections in the Shaba Swahili version)

F: bon/ mu page seize: tunapata hii: terme ya passeport/ ikuwa bureau/
K: ilikuwa bureau/
F: mbele: jina yake officiel: ilikuwa nini?
K: ni bureau ya territoire/ mais à coté iko passeport/ maneno passeport: batu yote inatoka hapa: ilitoka: ilikuwa kutafuta passeports ya: mikanda ja njia pale/
F: njia/ feuille de route/
K: feuille de route/ c'est la: passeport/
F: oui/
K: oui/
F: jina ule: tena ulitaya jina ya: ya nani?
K: Monsieur: ile bwana alikuwa administrateur: Monsier van ?Waramberg/
F: van Waramberg/
K: van Waramberg/ njo balikuwa anaita: bwana wa passeport/
F: bwana wa passeport/
K: ndiyo/
F: aah/
K: ilikuwa watu wote wanakuya toka ?cinq heures: parce que ici avant: mutu wote anafanya: anafanya déplacement yake: lazima est à feuille de route yake/
F: c'est ça/
K: ku bureau de passeport/
F: aah/
K: ndiyo/
F: ile uliona/
K: niliona/
F: na te: na wee ulipita...
K: nili: nilipita ku ile passeport/ monsieur Waremberg/
F: ilikuwa tu: magumu: difficile?
K: très difficile/
F: kuongojea?
K: kuongojea misululu: vous savez wakati wa wa: waBelges/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/ ilikuwa kuongoja misululu/ bon: ilikuwa kuongoja misululu: unakuya pale: unatoka Sakania: unatoka Ndola: mufulio: unatoka Kalemie: Albertville: partout: mbele unapita kutolea passeport/ ...?... visa d'arrivée:
F:oui/
K: ao: ou bien: visa de départ/
F: oui/
K: voilà/ et puis ilikuwa à coté: ku passeport: kulikuwa bureau ya immigration: bureau ya immatriculation: na maneno ya macartes d'identité yote/ macartes...
F: territoire ilikuwa wapi?
K: ilikuwa: kule kule ku soko/
F: ku soko/
K: ku soko/ iko soko ya zamani ya wazungu/
F: c'est ça/
K: oui/
F: ile wakati/ mulipashwa déjà kukata bilomo juu ya kupata ile...
K: ile wakati akukuwe: kweli tu/ ça n'existe pas/
F: [with emphasis] mais/
K: non non...
F: si njo balikuwa na baplantons...
K: akukuwe ile bitu/ kama ...?... inavuma/ akukuwa ili bitu/ tuko tunajua hii vitu/ akukuwe ile bitu/ on travaillait gracieusement/ gratuitement/
F: gratuitement/
K: oui/
F: mais: ile: ts: mi siwezi kusadiki/
K: ile: minasadiki/
F: mbele ulikwa na ma: makarani: na maplantons: na wote: si: kwa...
K: kama...
F: ... si kwa kuendelesha...
K: kama: sikiliza/ kama...
F: ... kuendelesha...
K: sikiliza/ kama cop: cor: corruption ilikuwako: ilikuwa ya uficho: haikuwe inajulikana/
F: da: bon: aliku: alikuwa...
K: ilikuwa hakuwe inajulikana/ akuwe inajulikana/
F: bon...
K: akuwe inajulikana/ parce que mi kama nilitumika mabureau ...
F: mais kwa uficho ilikuwa/ ilikuwako/
K: attention/ zamani/ zamani/ minayua mi nilikuwa mu territoire ...?.../ zamani: kama unataka nikusaidie kazi/
F: mm/
K: oui/ mangarabi wa kutoka mbali: mangaribi wanafika kwangu: ou bien na ndeke ya kuku: moja: mayayi: ...?... mayayi una...
F: kwako ni: iko sawa privé/
K: privé/ apana ku bureau/
F: ah/
K: unaletea mayayi/
F: oui/
K: ao kuku/ kwa kuwa minafanya kazi yako mbio/ c'était que: que del corruption/
F: oui oui/
K: lakini apana ya ouvert: kama vous avez fait là ...?...
F: avec les soldats/
K: oh non non non/ yee zamani: anatoka na bureau ya territoire: mutu anakuya na mbuzi yake: ao na mayayi/ ao na kuku: chef: kuku utakula? analeta sababu kwa kuwa wee umutumikie kazi yake mbio/
F: oui oui/
K: umutelezee kazi yake/
F: bon/
K: oui/

F: Alright, on page sixteen, we get this name "passeport." Was this an office?
K: It was an office.
F: First, what was its official name?
K: It was the Office of the Territory, but next to it was the passport [office]. It was called "passeport" because that was where who went away [had to go] to get his passport his "letters for the road."
F: The road. "Feuille de route" [it was called in French].
K: Feuille de route. That was that there, at "passeport."
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: That name [the Vocabulaire gives], the name you gave, who was that?
K: This bwana was the administrator, Monsieur van Waramberg.
F: Van Waramberg?
K: Van Waremberg, they used to call him "Bwana of passeport."
F: Bwana of passeport.
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: The way it was -- all the people arrived starting at five o'clock, because before [Independence] every one who travelled needed his travelling papers.
F: That's it.
K: [To be got at] the passport office.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: You saw this?
K: I saw it.
F: And you went there...
K: I went there to the passport office, to M. Waremberg.
F: Was this difficult?
K: Very difficult.
F: Waiting?
K: Waiting in line -- you know, in the days of the Belgians...
F: I see.
K: Yes. It was waiting in line. Alright, it was waiting in line. You would get there coming from Sakania or Ndola -- pushing and shoving -- or from Kalemie, that is Albertville, wherever, first you had to show your passport, ...?... to get your arrival visa.
F: I see.
K: Or your visa of departure.
F: I see.
K: You see. And then, next to the passport office, there was the office of immigration, the office of registration, whatever had to do with identity cards....
F: And where was the Office of the Territory?
K: It was there near the market.
F: Near the Market.
K: Near the market. That's where the market for the whites us to be in the old days.
F: That's it.
K: Yes.
F: In those days, did you already have to grease palms in order to get these....
K: In those days, no. Truly. That did not exist.
F: [with emphasis] Come on.
K: No no ...
F: Didn't they have gophers...
F: This things did not exist. There may have been ...?... rumours. [But] these things did not exist. We know this. These things did not exist. One worked graciously, or rather gratuitously.
F: Gratuitously.
K: Yes.
F: But I can't believe this.
K: I believe it.
F: To begin with, there were clerks, gophers, and all those people...
K: If...
F: ... was there not [something one did] to get things going...
K: If -- listen -- if...
F: ... to get things going...
K: Listen. If there was corruption, it was secret, it was not done openly [lit. generally known].
F: There we are, so it was...
K: It was not done openly. It was not done openly.
F: Alright...
K: It was not done openly. Because when I worked in the offices...
F: ... but in secret it existed. It was there.
K: Pay attention. In the old days. In the old days, I know, I worked in the territorial administration...?... In the old days, if you wanted me to help you with your business...
F: Mm-hmm.
K: Yes, in the evening, people who came from far away, in the evening they came to my place, maybe with some fowl, one chicken, eggs...?... eggs, are you...
F: At your place, so it was privately.
K: Privately, not at the office.
F: I see.
K: You would bring eggs.
F: I see.
K: Or a chicken, so that I would speed up your business. That was a kind of corruption.
F: Yes, yes.
K: But not openly, as you did there....?...
F: With the soldiers.
K: Oh no no no no. In the old days I would leave the Office of the Territory. Then a person would come with his goat, of with eggs, or with a chicken [and would say]: boss, are you going to eat the chicken? He brings it so that you do your best to speed up his case.
F: Yes, I see.
K: So you would expedite his case.
F: Alright.
K: Yes.

3. ON MONSEIGNEUR DE HEMPTINNE
(see Vocabulaire p. 18 in facsimile: [GIF, 133 KB] or [JPEG, 200 KB], and the corresponding passage in the Shaba Swahili version)

3. ON MONSEIGNEUR DE HEMPTINNE
(see Vocabulaire p. 18 in facsimile: [GIF, 133 KB] or [JPEG, 200 KB], and the corresponding passage in the Shaba Swahili version)

F: [reading from text]... mon père Jean Hemptinne Felixe: yule ni mutoto wa mufalme Léopold II/
K: c'est vrai ça?
F: minakuuliza/
K: oooh je ne crois pas/
F: banaandika hapa/
K: oo/
F: juu ya nini?
K: tu...
F: ...?... kuwa bongo?
K: unayua mupe Jean-Felix: c'est Monseigneur de Hemptinne/
F: oui/ c'est ça/
K: oui/ il était Felix: pas Feliksh: Feliksise/
F: oui/
K: bon/ ni mutoto wa mufalme Léo II: non/ peut-être: banataka kusema ni mutoto wa mufalme: peut-être wanakuwa wanasikilazana/ le temps Belge: eh Belge: banasikilizana/ hapana mutoto ya Léo II/
F: si njo bantu baliona mafoto yake...
K: maneno bale: maneno ...?... banafatulia pomoja?
F: oui/
K: ?huyu hapana mutoto yake/ ao balisikilia...
F: ... banafanana/
K: oui...
F: ...?... uliona foto ya Léopold II?
K: ndiyo/
F: na foto ya: ya...
K: de Hemptinne/
F: de Hemptinne/
K: ndiyo/ ni mandevu vilevile/
F: oui oui/
K: ...?... hamufanye mutoto yake/ ...?...apana mutoto yake/ d'après moi c'est ne pas son ma: son fils/
F: uniambie kiloko juu ya de Hemptinne/
K: aah [chuckles] d'après: d'après ce que moi je connais?
F: oui/
K: [pauses] Monseigneur de Hemptinne alikuwa askofu/ kubwa/ c'est Monseigneur/ anakuwa askofu mukubwa: anaba: analala anabakia ku cathédrale/
F: ile tunajua baba/
K: bon/ Monseigneur de Hemptinne: unayua wa: unayua wapadri/ alikuwa trop Belge: mais...
F: kama unataka nifunge: nifunga/
K: kufunga?
[F and K laugh]
K: wee..?... kufunga ya wongo/ minataka ...?... funga/ [laughs]
F: nifunge?
K: funga/
F: fungula ao funga/
K: kufunga/ [laughs]
F: wee unasikia woga?
K: ah non: allez allez allez: ma fttt ...
F: mais: c'est l'histoire/
K: c'est l'histoire/ bon/ ...?... ya Monseigneur de Hemptinne: alikuwa ba cha kuisha cathédrale/ mais alikuwa trop Belge/ alikuwa très catholique mais: au fait il était raciste/
F: ...raciste/ muntu makali sana/
K: oh lala: raciste: raciste/ bon...
F: hata mbele ya kuwa askofu: si njo alikuwa mon père?
K: akuwa matata?
F: sijue/
K: sijui: sijui/ mais minamujua wakati wangu: alikuwa Monseigneur hapa/ lakini minajua nayirappeler histoire moya ya pendant la grève de l'Union Minière ici ya: quarante et un/
F: quarante et un/ oui/
K: pendant la grève: je travaille ici au TP ...?... à coté Avenue de Chutes/
F: au Travaux Publique?
K: oui oui/ yeye: wakati walipika masasi huku ya Union Minière: yee alikwenda na Gouverneur Maron kule/
F: mm/
K: ...?... qu'est-ce qu'il est allé faire là-bas? alikuwa kwenda kuwabarikia? kwa kusema ...?... feu/ kwa kuua wantu/ de Hemptinne/
F: oui/
K: ...?... mais: ts: [whispering] na alikuwa mubaya/
F: na ile fameux: fameux sermon: ile mafundisho alileta/ kwa: kwa évolués/ unakumbuka? baliniambia kwa: kwa Mwenze/
K: ma ?temps ...?... évolués: minakwenda Albertville sasa/
F: ah bon/
K: oui/
F: uli: mu mwaka gani?
K: ah: en quarante cinq...
F: ... infaa tu: tuenregistrer ku: kiloko maisha yako: ile madates yote: mina: niko confus sasa/
K: uko sasa...
F: oui/ tête yangu: inajunguluka/
K: oui/
F: iko na kizunguzungu/
K: ah oui parce que unkamata hii: unkamata unakamata...?... hii/
F: mais ile ile histoire haujui?
K: ya évolués apana/
F: sawa anasema...
K: attention...
F: ... bo: ile wakati tulifika...
K: ....?... minajua...
F: ...?...
K: oui oui il nous traitait des macaques: c'est que je vous avait toujours dit/ il nous tratait des macaques: ...?... même aujourd'hui: mutraitez des macaques/
F: aliweza kupiga mikono huyu?
K: kupiga mikono: kupiga muntu?
F: non: ah: ku...
K: apana apana apana/ hakuwa napa...?... muntu mukono/
F: non?
K: apana/
F: jamais?
K: jamais/ non/ non/ alafu wakati wanasema: mu cercle ya évolués inaanza: waki: arréter watu mingi/ wakati ya waévolués: ile cercle ya évolués...
F: arrêter: waSûreté quoi? arrêter...
K: Sûreté: même ule eko commissaire de police là: Tubez/
F: juu ya nini?
K: aah: asema ce sont des communistes/
F: ah bon/
K: parce que wanakuwa kuya wazungu ingine waBelges...
F: oui/
K: weko nafundisha watu namna ingine/
F: oui/
K: contre...
F: sawa Ve: sawa Verbeken/
K: oui/
F: si njo alibishana na...
K: ndiyo...
F: na de Hemptinne?
K: voilà/ alors: de Hemptinne alikuwa contre/
F: eeh/
K: parce que unaona wale wa missionnaires: atupende siku yote...
F: mubakie tu...
K: bo manyama huku: bakia paka vile huku/ tuyue paka: religion/
F: oui/
K: na shee tulijua ilikuwa vrai ou faux: je ne sais pas/
F: oui/
K: c'était du vrais: ?siyui: mais: baliexagérer/
F: oui/
K: oui/

F: [reading from text} .... Father Jean Hemptinne Felix, this was a child of King Leopold II.
K: Is that true?
F: I am asking you.
K: Oh, I don't believe it.
F: They write it here.
K: Oh.
F: Why?
K: We...
F: ...?... be a lie?
K: You know, "Father Jean-Felix" -- that's Monseigneur de Hemptinne.
F: Yes, that's it.
K: Yes. His name was Felix, not Feliksh, or Feliksise.
F: Right.
K: Alright. [The Vocabulaire says] he is the child of King Leo II. No. Maybe they wanted to [have people say] that he was a child of the king, may be they had an agreement -- they had agreements during Belgian times. [But] he was not the child of Leo II.
F: Didn't people see his photographs...
K: Because these, because ....?... were depicted similarly [or: together]?
F: Yes.
K: This [de Hemptinne] was not his child, unless they [the Belgians] had come to an agreement...
F: ... they looked alike.
K: Yes.
F: ...?... have you seen a photograph of Leopold II?
K: Yes.
F: And a photograph of...
K: De Hemptinne.
F: De Hemptinne.
K: Yes. He also had a beard.
F: Right.
K: ...?... [that] does not make him his child. ...?... he is not his child. As far as I am concerned, he is not his son.
F: Tell me a little [more] about de Hemptinne.
K: Ah [chuckles]. Based on what I know?
F: Yes.
K: [pauses] Monseigneur de Hemptinne was a bishop. A high [office], that's [why he was called] Monseigneur. He was a high-ranking bishop, his residence was near the Cathedral.
F: We know that, baba.
K: Alright. Monseigneur de Hemptinne. You know -- you know the priests. He was too Belgian, but...
F: I you want me to stop [the recorder] I'll stop.
[F and K laugh]
K: You ...?... [?want] to stop it [so it won't record] lies? I want...?... to stop [laughs].
F: So should I stop it.
K: Stop it.
F: Turn it on or shut it down?
K: Shut it down [laughs].
F: Are you afraid?
K: That no, alright, go, go, go [makes a noise to indicate "what do I care?"]
F: After all, it's history.
K: It's history. Alright. .... ? ... about Monseigneur de Hemptinne, he was among those who finished the cathedral. But he was too Belgian. He was a staunch catholic but, actually, he was a racist.
F: ... a racist and quite a reckless person.
K: I tell you, a racist, a racist. Alright...
F: Even before he became bishop -- wasn't he a [simple] priest?
K: [You mean] was he trouble already then?
F: I don't know.
K: I don't know, I don't know. But I knew him at my time [when] he was Monseigneur here. I know, I recall, a story from the time during the strike at the Union Minière here, in forty-one.
F: Forty-one, yes.
K: During the strike I work here at the Public Works [Office] ...?... near Avenue de Chutes.
F: At Public Works?
K: Yes. Yes. When they fired bullets here [on the terrain] of the Union Minière he went to Governor Maron over there.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: ...?... what was he -- de Hemptinne -- going to do there? Was it that he went to give them his blessing, ...?... so they began firing to kill people.
F: I see.
K: ...?... But [makes a clicking noise and whispers] he was a bad one.
F: And what about that famous sermon, that homily he gave to evolués, do you remember? Mwenze told me about it.
K: At that time ...?... [of the sermon to the] évolués I had gone to Albertville.
F: Oh, I see.
K: Yes.
F: You -- what year was this?
K: Ah, in forty-five...
F: ... we ought to record your life; all those dates, I am confused now.
K: Now you are...
F: Yes. My head is spinning.
K: I see.
F: Just going around and around.
K: Ah, because you keep recording [all] this.
F: But that story [of de Hemptinne's] you did not know?
K: [The sermon] to the évolués, non.
F: For instance, he said....
K: Wait a minute...
F: ...about the time when they [the missionaries] arrived, they [the Africans]...
K: ....?... I know that...
F: ...?...
K: Yes yes. He called us monkeys. But I always told you about that. He called us monkeys...?... To this day you call [people] monkeys.
F: Was he prepared to shake hands [with Africans], this [de Hemptinne]?
K: What do you mean "kupiga mikono," beat a person?
F: No, ah, to [searching for a word]...
K: No, no, no. He never shook hands with an African.
F: No?
K: No.
F: Never?
K: Never. No. No. And then there was talk that many from the association of the évolués were arrested. The time of the évolués, this association of évolués...
F: Arrested -- was it the Sûreté [secret police], or who...
K: It was the Sûreté, and even that chief of police, Dubé.
F: What for?
K: Ah, they were said to be communists.
F: I see.
K: Because there had come another sort of whites, Belgians ...
F: Yes.
K: They taught the Africans differently.
F: I see.
K: Against...
F: Like Verbeken...
K: Yes.
F: Didn't he have arguments ...
K: Yes.
F: ... with de Hemptinne.
K: That's it. So de Hemptinne was against [what Verbeken stood for].
F: I see.
K: Because, you see, those missionaries [told themselves] we don't like it [when they] constantly [come together].
F: You should just stay [where you belonged]...
K: Those animals should just stay in their place. The only thing we recognize is religion.
F: Yes.
K: And we this was either true or false, I don't know.
F: Yes.
K: Was it true? I don't know but, in any case, they went too far.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.

4. ON FRIENDSHIP, MUTUAL AID, AND SOCIAL LIFE
(see Vocabulaire p. 22 in facsimile: [GIF, 163 KB] or [JPEG, 243 KB], and the corresponding passage in the Shaba Swahili version)

4. ON FRIENDSHIP, MUTUAL AID, AND SOCIAL LIFE
(see Vocabulaire p. 22 in facsimile: [GIF, 163 KB] or [JPEG, 243 KB], and the corresponding passage in the Shaba Swahili version)

F:...tulichungana sana sana pasipo kuwa kuchagula uchaguzi ya makabila/
K: oui/
F: Na est-ce que c'est vrai?
K: Ndiyo/ ilikuwa kweli/ wakati wa zamani: atukuwa tunaangari uyu ni Kasai: ni muLamba: ni muBemba: ni muRuba: apana/ tulikuwa bantu haba: bamoja/ batu bamoja/ surtout/ surtout kama unaangaria/
F: oui/
K: unaangaria uyu ni ndugu yako: uyo ni majina yako: eh?
F: eeh/
K: qui porte le même nom que vous:
F: oui/
K:...?... majina:
F: majina/
K: vous devenez un frère: un fère: grand frère/ plusqu'un frère/
F: mais: mais: jina ya ki...
K: ya kiKristo/
F: ya kiKristo/
K: ya kiKristo/
F: ah/
K: kama mi niko Albert: na weye Albert: tu deviens mon frère/
F: oui/
K: plusqu'un frère/
F: oui/
K: tunaangariana: tunasaidia cha kula: tunacheza: tunasaidiana kwa vyote/
F: sasa nini ilileta ile bukabila ile?
K: ii yote ya makabila kuachanachana: ni juu ya kipanda yetu/
F: kipanda/
K: kipanda/ na pale ilianza waLuba ngambo yao: baKatanga ngambo yao: baKongo ngambo yao: makabila mbalimbali iliachana: njo sawa kunakuwa uchaguzi/ mais zamani hakukuwa uchaguzi apana/ tulikuwa batu haba: pamoja/leo: parce que tu est Kasai: leo: parce que tu est muBemba: leo: parce que tu est ceci et cela/
F: tena baliasema ka: que surtout mu kilisi: balikuwa kufwata malingi: kucheza...
K: [corrects] kucheza malinga/
F: malinga/
K: malinga/
F: oui/
K: oui/
F: malinga ilikuwa ngapi? namna gani? balikuwa na ma: grammophone? ao?
K: zamani kulikuwa grammophone/
F: oui/
K: walicheza: malinga na grammophone/
F: eeh/
K: ndiyo/ tena: wanacheza: ya ngoma: matambours/
F: aha/
K: ilikuwa tambours na maguitarres/ ao na accordéon/
F: accordéon/
K: accordéon/
F: eh/
K: banacheza/ banacheze style européen/
F: oui/
K: ile kumatana na bibi: wanarouler: rouler: rouler: rouler: wee/ ndiyo/ ça existait/
F: matango...
K: matango: yote ile bichezo/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: bale ba: mwenye kucheza: bagroupes: unakumbuka tena?
K: ndiyo/ magroupes inacheza: wanaita par example: kulikuwa sociétés bengine Balubakat:
F: oui/
K: baLuba: na baKongo:
F: oui/
K: allez: balikwenda kubecha: concours/
F: kubecha?
K: kubecha ni concours/
F: oui/
K: angaria nani anacheza muzuri: ao ni ngambo ya waLuba: ao ni ngambo ya waKongo: ao...
F: mais bale baKongo balikuwa baKongo ya kweli?
K: baKongo: baKongo ya kweli: balitoka Kongo/
F: ya: ya kule...
K: kule baLéopoldville: Thysville là bas/ oui oui/
F: si njo ku: ukabila vile?
K: ndiyo ndiyo/
F: si njo ukabila?
K: ni kucheza ni michezo/ lakinia habakuwa anasema huyu ni mutu ingine: mutu ingine/
F: aah/
K: ni paka hapa ...?... indépendance: tunakuwa asema ule iko muLamba: ao ule iko hivi: ule iko: iko hivi/ mais zamani hapana/
F: zamani hapana/
K: hapana/
F: hata mu: si mulikuwa na mankundi: associations...
K: associations: mais: aikuwa sawa leo ya politique/
F: non/
K: ilikuwa associations muzuri/ muzuri/
F: muzuri sawa: mu namna gani?
K: tunasaidiana:
F: mm/
K: tunaangariana: muntu iko na kilio: walipoteza nduku yake: nduku yake alikufa: si wote: ...?... yee kumujua: tunakwenda kubaassister ku ile deuil/
F: wee ulikuwa mu associations vilevile?
K: mi hapana: ile wakati nilikuwa kijana/ lakini minajua ile/
F: mais baba yako?
K: baba alikuwa anakwenda: baba anajuana na kabila yote mingi hapa/
F: eeh
K: oui/ kulikuwa: uyu undugu ya zamani/
F: oui/
K: no: inakuwa: kuwa muLamba: ao Kasai: voilà/ c'est à cause de...?... c'est la politique/
F: c'est la politique?
K: c'est la politique/
F: mais: politique: ni nini?
K: politique bule/ politique bule/ politique/ leo: bwana mukubwa yetu: anakamata wandugu yake/
F: oui/
K: fulani anakamata paka ndugu yake/ fulani paka ndugu yake/
F: oui/
K: miye: ile: niko muTabwa: kama niko directeur hapa: mi ita paka wandugu yangu waTabwa/....?... travailler/
F: oui/
K: huku mandugu/
F: oui/ bon: minaona/

F: [reading from the Vocabulaire] ... we took care of one another without making distinctions according to tribe.
K: Yes.
F: And is this true?
K: Yes, it was true. In the old days we did not look [at people and say]: This one is Kasaian, a Lamba, a Bemba, a Luba, no. We were people together. People were one. Especially, especially if you considered...
F: Yes.
K: ...if you considered this person your brother because he was your namesake, you understand?
F: Yes.
K: Someone who had the same name as you.
F: Yes.
K: ...?... a namesake.
F: Namesake.
K: You become a brother, a brother, truly a brother. More than a brother.
F: But was this [based on] the ...
K: The christian name.
F: The christian name.
F: I see.
K: If am Albert and you are Albert you become my brother.
F: Yes.
K: More than a brother.
F: Yes.
K: We look out for one another, we help with food, we play, we help each other in every respect.
F: So what brought this tribalism about?
K: All this business of constantly making distinctions among tribes comes from our independence.
F: Independence.
K: Independence. That's when it began: The Luba [Kasai] in their corner, the Katangese in their corner, the Kongo in theirs, the tribes from different regions were different. So there was discrimination. But in the old days there was no discrimination. We were one people together. Today [you are what you are] because you are Kasaian, because you are Bemba, because you are this or that.
F: Also, they said [in the Vocabulaire] that, especially in the time of the crisis, people were after malingi, [ball-room] dancing.
K: [corrects] malinga dancing.
F: Malinga.
K: Malinga.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: How many [styles of] ball room dancing were there? How was it done. Did they have gramophones, or?
K: In those days there were gramophones.
F: I see.
K: Ball room dancing was done to a gramophone.
F: I see.
K: Yes, and also they danced to drums.
F: I see.
K: There were drums, guitars, and the accordion.
F: The accordion.
K: The accordion.
F: I see.
K: They danced. They danced European style.
F: I see.
K: The one where they embrace the lady and turn around and around, forever. Yes, that existed.
F: Tangos....
K: Tangos, all those dances.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: Yes.
F: Those groups that danced [or performed], you still remember them?
K: Yes, among the groups that performed, one, for instance, was called Balubakat.
F: Yes.
K: Baluba, and Bakongo.
F: Yes.
K: They would go to kubecha, competitions.
F: Kubecha?
K: Kubecha means competition.
F: I see.
K: [And then one would] look: Who would play [or dance] well, the Luba, or the Kongo, or....
F: But were these "Bakongo" really Kongo?
K: Kongo, real Kongo from the Kongo region.
F: From there...
K: From there, people from Léopoldville, Thysville, down there, yes, yes.
F: Is that not also tribalism.
K: Yes, yes.
F: Is that not tribalism?
K: It was playful, about dances. But there was not talk about those people being different.
F: I see.
K: Here it was only with Independence [that this sort of talk started]. That's when we started saying this person is Lamba, or this or that. But that was not the case in the old days.
F: Not in the old days.
K: No.
F: Though you had groups, [ethnic] associations...
K: Associations, yes, but it wasn't a matter of politics as it is today.
F: No?
K: Those were good association. [They were] good.
F: Good in what sense?
K: We helped one another.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: We looked out for one another. If a person was in mourning, say, he lost his brother, his brother died, ...?... if we knew him we would go and help him with [the expenses of] those mourning [ceremonies].
F: Were you also a member of associations?
K: I wasn't, I was a youngster at that time. But I know this.
F: But your father?
K: Father participated, baba had acquaintances among all those many tribes here.
F: I see.
K: Yes, in the old days there was this brotherhood.
F: I see.
K: No [it wasn't like this]: this is a Lamba or a Kasaian. [This sort of thing] is due to politics.
F: It's politics?
K: It's politics.
F: But politics, what is that?
K: It's empty politics, empty politic. Just politics. Today, our big chief, he only takes his brothers.
F: Yes.
K: This one only takes his brother, that one only his.
F: Yes.
K: [For instance] I am Tabwa. If I am a director here, I only call on my Tabwa brothers...?... to work [for me].
F: Yes.
K: Nepotism rules here.
F: Yes. Alright, I see.

5. ON THE massacre AMONG STRIKERS AT THE UNION MINIERE
(see Vocabulaire p. 24 in facsimile: [GIF, 185 KB] or [JPEG, 270 KB], and the corresponding passage in the Shaba Swahili version)

5. ON THE massacre AMONG STRIKERS AT THE UNION MINIERE
(see Vocabulaire p. 24 in facsimile: [GIF, 185 KB] or [JPEG, 270 KB], and the corresponding passage in the Shaba Swahili version)

...F: ile mambo ya: Maron Alphonse kuua ile infirmier: ule infirmier.... bon/ uniambie tena/
K: minanajua hivi/ c'était en quarante: quarante: quarante cinq: la guerre de quarante quarante cinq/
F: oui/
K: bantu ya Union Minière baliomba: waongezee franka/
F: c'est ça/
K: ile Union Minière alikatala/ alors ils ont volu voulez faire la grève/ en faisant la grève: ilikuwa: ushiku wantu wa équippe ya dix heures: dix heures et demi: awakwenda ku kazi/ na wale ya kuya six heures du matin: awakwenda ku kazi/ balikala mu kiwanja ya futbol/
F: dix heures du soir?
K: di: mais: bale balikuwa nafanya changer he?
F: oui c'est ça/
K: bon/ bale wa kutoka dix heures...
F: dix heures ni...
K: bakuye huku kutumika dix heures hawakuja/
F: teni/
K: na: te: [confirms expression] teni/ na bale bakuye asubui six heures: habakuya/ bote balisikilisana bakusanyika: mu plaine des jeunes/
F: oui/
K: alors baliabaambia watu...
F: wapi kule: plaine des jeunes?
K: à l'Union Minière: mu camp de la Gécamines/
F: camp de la Gécamines/
K: de l'Union Minière oui/ banaambia mwende ku kazi/ wale watu wanakatala kwenda ku kazi: wanasema tu shee: mbele ya kwenda ku kazi: paka augmentation de salaire/ na wazungu asema mbele mwende mutumike: vous aurez augmentation après/ bo wanaasema wapate ...?... augmentation sur le champs/ ao munafanya kitu ao munafanya kiburi/ alors Maron/ Maron: la personne qu'il a pris: il travaille tu à coté ici/ Maron: Monseigneur de Hemptinne: je vous ai dit: il était là aussi: allez feu/ faites le feu/ poff/ banaua batu/
F: banaua ngapi?
K: ah je ne saurais: ça je ne saurais pas vous le dire/
F: bamingi ao...
K: oui balikuwa mia: mia: ?kuvunjika mikulu: ndiyo/ na wanakufa kidogo/ tena ii masasi ile ile: ilikuwa kukamata bamama walikwenda ku mashamba/ kwenda kutafuta chakula: sombe: chakula...
F: aah/
K: masasi ile inakuwa kupita...?... kamata kule/ kubaumiza/ oui/ oui oui oui/ oui/
F: ulifwata pa ...
K: mi nilikuwa hapa: quarante quarante cinq: niko ku TP/ c'est déjà quatre ans de service/
F: sasa wee ulipata ile: ule siku...
K: kupata nini?
F: ile siku una: unakumbuka tena ile siku?
K: ah c'était en quarante et un ou en quarante oui?
F: quarante et un/
K: oui oui/
F: na wee uli: hapa: ulipata habari namna gani?
K: miye? nilikuwa kutumika pa coté: banapikana kule ngambo: kunasikia masasi inalia/
F: oui/
B: allez bantu tu asema wanaua bantu ku Union Minière/
F: ah oui/
K: bale banakataa kazi/
F: na mu: mu ville: balipokelea hii habari namna gani? balisema nini?
K: ...?... si bunduki inalia/ krrrr/ c'étaient des mitrailleuses/
F: de mitrailleuses?
K: mitrailleuses/ alafu Maron: yee alipika ule muntu: alikuwa sawa réprésentant ya travailleurs/ paku/ il est mort/
F: pika na...
K: na balles: revolver: revolver: revolver/
F: ni yee alikuwa ka...?...
K: yee: yee yee yee/ maneno bantu walisema she hatuwezi kwenda ku kazi: wanataka kamata augmentation sur le champs/ oh vous refusez: vous êtes des types: paff/ kumbe wee njo meneur/aliua yee/ ndiyo/

F: This affair of Alphonse Maron killing that nurse. Alright, tell me more about it.
K: What I know is this. It was in forty, forty, forty-five; it was the war of forty-forty-five.
F: Yes.
K: The workers of the Union Minière asked for a pay raise.
F: That's it.
K: This the Union Miniére refused. So they wanted to go on strike. The way they did it was the in the evening the workers of the ten o'clock shift -- or 10:30 -- did not go to work. And those that should have come to morning shift at six o'clock did not go to work. They waited around on the soccer field.
F: Ten o'clock at night?
K: But the shifts changes, right?
F: Yes, that's true.
K: Alright. Those to show up at ten o'clock...
F: [The] ten o'clock shift [is called]...
K: They ten o'clock shift should have been there but they didn't come.
F: Teni/
K: And -- teni, right [that was what it was called]. And those that should have come at six o'clock in the morning did not come. They all had agreed to meet at the Plaine des Jeunes.
F: Right.
K: So the people were told...
F: Where was this Plaine des Jeunes?
K: At the Union Minière, what is not the [workers'] camp of the Gecamines.
F: In the camp of the Gecamines.
K: Of the Union Minière, yes. They were told to go to work. But those workers refused to go to work. They said, before we go to work [we want] a pay raise. Then the whites said: "Go to work first and you will have your raise afterwards." So [the workers] said they had to have the raise at once: "Either you do something or you just show your arrogance. Now to Maron. The person Maron grabbed -- incidentally Maron's office was near the scene. Maron and Monseigneur de Hemptinne who, as I told you, was also there [gave the order]: Fire. Open the fire. Puff. They killed people.
F: How many did they kill?
K: Oh, that I couldn't tell you.
F: Many or...
K: Yes, it was hundreds; [in some cases they aimed and] broke their legs. Yes. And those did not die [lit. died a little]. And then some women on their way to the fields were hit by bullets. They went there to look for food, manioc leaves, things to eat...
F: I see.
K: There were just too many bullets flying ...?... so they hit [the women] there and injured them. Yes. Yes yes yes. Yes.
F: You followed this at...
K: I was here around forty forty-five, at Public Works. I already had four years of service
F: Now, on that day, you got...
K: Got what?
F: Do you still remember that day?
K: Ah, it was in forty-one or forty, right?
F: Forty-one.
K: Yes, yes.
F: And how did you get the news?
K: Me? I was working near to where the fighting went on, you could hear the sound of the bullets.
F: I see.
K: Quick, they were saying, at the Union Minière people are getting killed.
F: Ah yes.
K: The ones that refuse to work.
F: And how did they get the news in town? What was the word?
K: ...?... didn't the guns make noise -- krrrrr -- those were machine guns.
F: Machine guns?
K: Machine gun. Except Maron, he hit this person who was like the spokesman of the workers. Paff, and he was dead.
F: Hit him with...
K: ...with a bullet. A revolver, a revolver, a revolver.
F: It was he who...?...
K: He. He, he, he. [All this] because people said: "We cannot go to work." They wanted to have a raise immediately. [So the whites said] "Oh, you refuse. You are something else." Paff. [And Maron said] "So your are the chief troublemaker," and killed him. Yes.

6. ON MUTINIES AND REBELLIONS
(see Vocabulaire pp. 28-29 in facsimile: [GIF, 177 KB] or [JPEG, 268 KB], and the corresponding passage in the Shaba Swahili version)

6. ON MUTINIES AND REBELLIONS
(see Vocabulaire pp. 28-29 in facsimile: [GIF, 177 KB] or [JPEG, 268 KB], and the corresponding passage in the Shaba Swahili version)

F: si njo balikuwa na mamutineries? mutinerie de Lulubourg?
K: ile ni makati ya indépendence/
F: hapana/mu quarante et un: quarante...
K: quarante: quarante et un c'était la guerre oui: la guerre de quarante quarante et un/
F: oui/
K: bon/ ni pale wantu weushi wanaanza kuwa: mambo ya bacercle d'évolués/
F: oui/
K: njo wantu wale walisoma kidogo: allez/ njo wanataka kufanya: ku mutineries: wanataka kulete ma: makelele/ na wazungu/
F: hapa ku Lubumbashi?
K: ?baliwez ku: mais: non: hapa mu...
F: Lubumbashi/
K: ah non/ non/ Lubumbashi: kulikuwa vita moya: ilikuwa ile grève: ile balifany ku Union Minière/
F: quarante et un/
K: quarante et un/
F: mais: hamusikie habari ya: mutinerie ya soldats mu Luluabourg?
K: ile habari tulipata/
F: la révolte de Masisi?
K: tulipate ile habari/
F: bien: sema tu/
K: Masisi mi sijui/ Luluabourg minasikia wantu: wa: wasoldats walitomboka/ sijui sababu/ sijui parce que Luluabourg: na Lubumbashi: eh: ça veut dire...
F: ali: na habari ilifika hapi: hapa/
K a: abari alifika hapa/ ilifika/
F: balizu: bazungu baliona hii mambo namna gani?
K: oh: wazungu we unawaza ...?... wantu wanataka kutomboka?
F: si balisika woga?
K: bazungu walisikia woga/ walisikia woga...
F: uliona namna gani?
K: ah: parce que wazungu wenye walikuwa na kimbiakimbia/ wanakwenda na Afriqe du Sud/
F: aah/
K: ndiyo/
F: bamingi?
K: bamingi/ surtout les: les commerçants et les: les Belges/ de l'état/ du service de l'état/
F: mu quarante et un: quarante...
K: ndiyo/ ndiyo ndiyo/ ku quarante et un niko: niko natumika mu travaux publiques/ province...
F: hata ku...
K: hata...
F: ...les années ya vita?
K: oui oui oui/
F: donc: ku vita?
K: mais oui: banasema itakuja huku/ beko anakwenda na mashua/
F: ahah/
K: oui/
F: na hapa: hamukuwe na: hamukuwe na...
K: ...mutineries huku hapana...
F: ... mutinerie hapana/
K: ilikuwa: ilikuwa siky moja: oui/ ilikuwa siku moja walisikilizana mu militair wa Lululabourg na militair ya Elisabethville/
F: mm/
K: mais: haba walikuwa en retard/
F: aah/
K: ni wale walianza: révolte yabo mbele/ mais hawa walichelewa/ na hawa: bo ...?... bapurger/ bapurger/

F: Didn't they have mutinies? The Luluabourg mutiny [for instance]?
K: That was at the time of Independence.
F: No, in forty-one, forty....
K: Forty, forty-one, that was during the war, the war of forty-forty-one.
F: Right.
K: Alright. That was when black people began to get involved in the Cercles d'évolués.
F: Yes.
K: That was when people had read a little and became impatient. That's when they planned mutinies and wanted to make noise. Against the whites.
F: Here in Lubumbashi.
K: They were apt to -- but no, here in ...
F: Lubumbashi?
K: Ah no, no. In Lubumbashi there was one conflict and that was this strike the made at the Union Minière.
F: Forty-one.
K: Forty-one.
F: But didn't you get news from the mutiny of the soldiers in Luluabourg.
K: We got that news.
F: [Or of] the Masisi rebellion?
K: We got that news.
F: Right, so tell me.
K: About Masisi I don't know. About Luluabourg I heard that people, soldier, rebelled [lit. exploded]. I don't know the reason. I don't know because Luluabourg and Lubumbashi, how shall I say...
F: And the news arrived here?
K: The news arrived here. It arrived.
F: How did the whites see this?
K: Oh, the whites -- what do you think...?....[You mean] that people were about to rebel?
F: Were they not afraid?
K: The whites were afraid. They were afraid...
F: How did you notice?
K: Ah, because the white fled everywhere. They went to South Africa.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Many of them?
K: Many. Above all the businessmen and the Belgians that were in the administration.
F: In forty-one, forty....
K: Yes. Yes, yes. In forty-one I was working at Public Works, at the provincial [administration].
F: Even during....
K: Even...
F: During the war years?
K: Yes, yes, yes.
F: So, during the war?
K: But yes. They said that [the rebellion] would come here. They went away by train.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: And here you didn't have...
K: ...mutinies. No, not here.
F: No mutinies.
K: It happened, yes, one day it happened. One day, the military in Lululabourg and the Military in Elisabethville came to an understanding.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: But, [the military here] were too late.
F: I see.
K: Those [in Luluabourg] started their revolt first, the ones [in Elisabethville] were too late. And they were purged. They were purged.

7. ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
WHY THE NAME "VOCABULAIRE"?

7. ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
WHY THE NAME "VOCABULAIRE?"

F: mwisho: niko na kaulizo/
K: d'accord/
F: kaloko/ mbele: maana yake ya vocabulaire/ juu ya nini alitaya ii histoire vocabulaire?
K: vocabulaire ni: mi: kiswahili: minataka kusema mu: ufafanuo/ kujulisha/ mambo/ ufafanuo/ raconter une histoire/
F: njo vocabulaire?
K: njo vocabulaire/
F: kwa: kwako: una: unasikia vocabulaire namna gani?
K:...?nilikuambia kama ni: ufunuo/ kujulisha abari moja fulani/ raconter une histoire/
F: mais/
K: parler d'un fait/
F: uliisha kuona mavocabulaires imprimés? vocabulaires/
K: en Swahili?
F: ao mu lugha ingine/
K: miye: zamani nakuwa na vocabulaire Tabwa Swahili/
F: voilà/ bon/ c'est une histoire? non/
K: c'est une histoire/
F: comment?
K: au fond: au fond...
F: ...?...
K: c'est comme un récit...
F: non non ... ile vocabulaire Tabwa Swahili: ulikuwa nayo/
K: ndiyo/
F: ilikuwa histoire?
K: apana histoire/
F: bon/
K: iko sawa dictionnaire/
F: bon: alors?
K: yee: yee apana employer ceci/
F: banaemployer?
K: oui alafu...
F: ça s'employe couramment?
K: pas couramment/
F: non/
K: pas couramment/ non/ ...?... vocabulaire/
F: pourquoi?
K: oui/
F: njo: njo ulizo yangu/
K: yee alitaka kusema récit/ ufafanuo wa habari fulani/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ c'est pas un vocabulaire/ vocabulaire c'est comme un: vous avez un bouquin un dictionnaire pour traduir: ou bien traduction/
F: traduction?
K: oui/ ça c'est une traduction/
F: namna gani?
K: traduction ni traduire/ il le sait/ qu'il a vecu/
F: ah oui/
K: oui/ il parle de ce qu'il a vu/
F: oui/
K: c'est un récit/ c'est un récit par résumé/

F: Finally, I have a little question.
K: Alright.
F: A small one. First, what is the meaning of vocabulaire? Why did he call this history a vocabulaire?
K: Vocabulaire is -- in Swahili I want to say ufafanuo, [something] to convey knowledge of things. Ufafanuo, tell a story.
F: That is [what] vocabulaire [means]?
K: That is [what] vocabulaire [means].
F: In your own mind, how do you understand [the term] vocabulaire?
K: I told you, it means ufafanuo, something to make certain news known, to tell a story.
F: But.
K: To speak of a fact.
F: Have you seen printed vocabularies? Vocabularies.
K: In Swahili?
F: Or in another language.
K: Long ago I had a Tabwa-Swahili vocabulary.
F: There you go. So, is that a story? No.
K: It's a story.
F: How so?
K: Deep down, deep down...
F: ...?...
K: It is like a story.
F: No, no ...?... [I mean] that Tabwa-Swahili vocabulary you had.
K: Yes.
F: Was that history?
K: No, it wasn't history.
F: Fine.
K: It was like a dictionary.
F: Right. So?
K: He [the author of the vocabulaire] did not employ [the term] in that sense.
F: But it was employed, [no]?
K: Yes, but...
F: Is the term a current one?
K: No, not current.
F: No.
K: Not current, no. ...?... vocabulaire.
F: Why [that term]?
K: Yes.
F: That's my question.
K: [The author] wanted to say story, a report of certain news.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: Yes. This is not a vocabulary. A vocabulary is like -- you have such a book, a dictionary for translating. Or [that is what he meant:] translation.
F: Translation?
K: Yes, [the Vocabulaire] is a translation.
F: How is that?
K: Translation means to translate. He knows it, he has lived it.
F: Ah, I see.
K: Yes, he talks of what he has seen.
F: Yes.
K: [The Vocabulaire] is a story. It is a condensed story.

8. ABOUT THE AUTHOR AND SPONSORS OF THE VOCABULAIRE
ABOUT DOMESTIC WORK

8. ABOUT THE AUTHOR AND SPONSORS OF THE VOCABULAIRE
ABOUT DOMESTIC WORK

F: sawa unaona: kama tunasema kile: alikuwa tu: ule bwana peke yake: aliandika ma: ma: mamémoires: eh ...
K: ...?... aussi/
F: yabo: ao: alikuwa ku: kuchangachanga...
K: ... wacamarades yake?
F: wacamarades yake/
K: ya kwanza/ ya kwanza/
F: mm/
K: uyu ni aliandike tu/ hakuna jina lake/ ni nani?
F: Yav André/
K: non: c'est pas Yav André/
F: oui oui oui/
K: non non non non/ ça il ya pas de...
F: non: la: la: ce n'est pas ouvert: nous le savons/ nous savon que c'était Yav André/
K: vous vous le savez?
F: oui oui/
K: bon/ na tena pa kutumika hii kitu hii/ hakuwa yee peke/ alikuwa na wacamarades yake/ moja mbili tatu: sijue/
F: mm/
K: oui/ parce que il peut se tromper en racontant ce qu'il a vu/
F: oui oui/
K: ...?... l'autre: c'était pas comme ça/ c'est ça/ alikuwa na watu mbili/ watu mbili: tatu: inne: tano: vingt? oui/
F: tena: nili: nilikuuliza déjà: mais/ jamais: uliona document ya namna hii?
K: si: mara ya kwanza minaona hii/
F: mara ya kwanza?
K: mara ya kwanza/ hapa kule ulinitumia: njo mara ya kwanza kuona/ sijaona: d'ailleurs: mi hapana kuécouter mambo ya waboy [chuckles]/
F: mm/
K: eh/ tena sikuwe na ndugu yangu boy/ sikuwe na dada yangu mwenyee aliolewa ku baboy/
F: bali: baboy balikuwa vraiment à part?
K: ah oui: il est boy ?il est boy eh/
F: oui/
K: oui/ baboy à part/ na balikuwa na association yabo baboy à part/
F: na ku famille yako...
K: oui/
F: hamukuwe na hata: hata na boy moya/
K: hatukuwe na boy/
F: juu ya nini?
K: ah sisikili: sijue: c'est comme ça/
F: ... est-ce que bengine balikatala kazi ya boy?
K: oui: mais: attention/ mi niko muTabwa/
F: mm/
K: kwetu sisi waTabwa: hakutuko: akutoka: hakuwe kutoka boy/
F: hapana?
K: non/
F: juu ya nini?
K: ah shiyue pourquoi/ parce que: kwetu: nous étions dominés par les prêtres/
F: eh/
K: eh/ ao kule ?hawakupa kazi ya boy/ iko paka kazi ya walimu après les études: ou bien infirmier/ ou bien bumumpe/ voilà/ c'est tout/ il n'y avait pas des boy/ bon: kama après il y a quelques travailleurs: je n'appelle pas les boy les travailleurs: c'était pour la: la Géomine Manono/
F: oui/ bo habana boy: non/
K: pas de boy/
F: boy: ni kusema kazi ya domestique/
K: domestique/ ya kufua manguo: ou kupika chakula: patati patata/ mais kwetu Baudoinville: hakukuona toka boy/
F: na ile wakati ile: bengine baliona kazi ya boy namna gani? asema ni kazi muzuri: ni kazi...
K: ndiyo: wengine walipenda: wengine profiter sababu ao mambo ya kula/ ao mambo ya kupati vitu kwa wazungu: ao sawa vile kwenda ulaya/
F: mm/
K: voilà/ ni vile aussi mingi: ni profiter/
F: oui/
K: oui/
F: mais c'était quand même un...
K: ilikuwa: parce-que kazi ya uboy: oui ilikuya ya mbele/ parce que bo balikuwa sawa vile wazungu...
F: ... si ilikuwa haya kwa muntu?
K: haya?
F: mwanaume/
K: oui/ kutumika boy?
F: kutumika boy/
K: apana dis/
F: ku: kupika chakula/
K: hapana dis...
F: ... si tu kazi ya wabibi/
K: hapana/ hapana/
F: ni kazi ya wanaume?
K: non monsieur/ sisi watu weusi: mbele: mwanamuka kazi yake ku nyumba: mashamba: ku nyumba/
F: ndiyo/
K: oui/ hii wanaume wa kutumika ku manyumba: kufua: kupika: fanya kazi ya nguvu ni wanaume/
F: wanaume?
K: mwanaume/
F: kupika chakula?
K: ni mwanume/ mais tous ceux qu'on appelle boy: ils n'avaient pas des femmes?
F: oui d'accord/ mais...
K: ce n'est que maintenant qu'il y a des femmes qui préparent qui font tout maintenant/
F: oui oui mais: kwenu zamani: sawa mu: mu village/ muntu hawezi kupika chakula? kazi ya mama...
K: ah: ndiyo: ni kazi ya wamama/ ii apana kazi/ il faut pas: il faut pas meler...
F: ni: nini? hapana kazi/
K: bon/ bibi yangu/
F: oui/
K: anapiga chakula: hapana boy yangu/
F: non/
K: iko bibi yangu/ c'est ma femme/
F: donc hana kazi...
K: c'est ne pas du travail/
F: non/
K: ...?... c'est votre femme/ ah voilà/ et vous allez la respecter: comme telle/
F: oui/
K: bon: elle est: siye batu beushi: mwanamuke: kazi yake: kupika chakula: kufua manguo/ kutengenza mambo/
F: mm/
K: baff: c'est fini/
F: oui/
K: na ile wakati...
F: tena kulima/
K: na kulima/ tena...
F: kukomesha watoto/
K: ndiyo/ tena: mi shiwezi: par example mois je sui marié: nikamate bibi yangu: nikufag?uya: asema afanye boy ya kupika kwako/ ile wakati apana/
F: non/
K: kwa leo maintenant: elles font tout/ zamani apana/ bibi yangu anabakia kwako/ kuangaria watoto: kupika chakula yangu....
F: eh ... bengine alikuwa sawa: alikuwa: kwa mecho ya: ya wantu ingine: alikuwa sawa haya/
K: apana/
F: aah: ule muntu: kazi ya boy ya kufanya tu kazi ya: kazi ya mwanamuke?
K: non non non non/
F: non?
K: apana apana apana/
F: jamais/
K: non non non non/ oui mais dis: comment est-ce que vous allez vivre avec votre femme si vous n'avez pas du travail?
F: oui oui/
K: il faut travailler pour avoir un peu ...?... c'est pour manger: pour vivre/

F: As you see it, if we were to say that it was just this man by himself who wrote up [his] memories...
K: ...?... also...
F: ...theirs. Or he was mixing [his and theirs] together...
K: ... [the memories of] his comrades?
F: [Of] his comrades.
K: Above all, above all.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: This man was just the one who wrote them down. His name is not mentioned, who was he?
F: Yav André.
K: No, it's not Yav André.
F: Yes yes yes.
K: Non non non non. That -- there is no...
F: No, that is not an open question, we know it. We know that it was Yav André.
K: You, you know it?
F: Yes, yes.
K: Alright. But still, to work on this thing, he was not alone, he had his comrades, one, two, three, I don't know.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: Yes. Because he can err when he tells what he has seen.
F: Yes, yes.
K: ...?... another person [could tell him:] "It wasn't like that. This is how it was." He [worked together] two persons. Two persons, three, four, five; or twenty? Yes.
F: Furthermore -- I already asked you this, but still -- have you ever seen a document like this one?
K: No, I see this for the first time.
F: For the first time?
K: For the first time. When you sent to me here, this was the first time I saw it. I had not seen it before and, by the way, I don't pay attention to the affairs of domestic servants [chuckles].
F: Mm-hmm.
K: Yes, and I don't have a relative [or friend who worked as a] boy.
F: Were the boys really [a group] apart?
K: Ah yes. A boy is a boy, right?
F: Yes.
K: Yes. The boys were apart. And they had their separate association of boys.
F: And in your family...
K: Yes.
F: You don't have even one boy?
K: We don't have a boy.
F: How come?
K: Ah, we...I don't know, it's like that.
F: Because some people refuse to work as boys?
K: Yes. But listen, I am Tabwa.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: Among us Tabwa [working as a] boy did not come up.
F: No?
K: No.
F: Why:
K: Ah, I don't know why. Because in our country we were dominated by the priests.
F: I see.
K: Yes. Or there they did not employ boys. There was only work as a teacher, after you finished school, or as a nurse, or the priesthood. You see, that was all. There were no boys. Fine, if later there were some workers -- but I don't call workers boys -- [they worked] for the Geomines [mining company] at Manono.
F: Right, they aren't boys, no.
K: [They aren't] boys.
F: Boy means [doing] domestic work.
K: Domestic work. Do the laundry, cook the meals, and all that sort of thing. But at home in Baudoinville, we didn't see [people] become boys.
F: And in those days, how did some people see the work of boys? Did they say it was good work, it was work...
K: Yes, some liked it; some profited as far as having to eat was concerned, or getting things from the whites, or going to Europe.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: So you see, many also profited.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: But it was nevertheless a...
K: It was, yes, to work as a boy was highly regarded, because they were like whites...
F: ...was it not shameful for a person?
K: Shameful?
F: [I mean for] a man.
K: In understand. To work as a boy?
F: To work as a boy?
K: Come on, no.
F: Cooking food.
K: Come on, no.
F: Isn't that women's work?
K: No, no.
F: Is it men's work.
K: No sir. First of all, among us black people the woman has her work in the house, on the fields, in the house.
F: Yes.
K: Yes. This man who worked in the houses [of whites] doing the laundry, cooking, doing hard work, is a man.
F: A man?
K: A man.
F: Cooking the food?
K: He is a man. Didn't all those who are called boy have wives?
F: Yes, I agree, but...
K: Only nowadays, there are women who prepare [the food] and do everything [in another household].
F: Yes, yes, but like in the old days, in the village, it was impossible for man to cook? The work of the wife...
K: A, yes. That was the women's work. This was not work. One should not confuse things...
F: What is this? It isn't work?
K: Alright. [Take] my wife.
F: Yes.
K: She cooks the food. She is not my boy.
F: No.
K: She is my wife. [In French] She is my wife.
F: So, this is not work...
K: [in French] This is not work.
F: No.
K: ...?... it is your wife, you see, and you are going to respect her as such.
F: Yes.
K: Alright, she is -- among us black people the wife's work is to cook the food, do the laundry, clean up things.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: And that's it.
F: Yes.
K: And in those days...
F: Also to work in the fields...
K: And to work in the fields, and also
F: Raise the children.
K: Yes. Furthermore, I cannot -- for example, I am married, I should take my wife, give her a broom telling her she should work like a boy, cook the food in your house. That did not exist in those days.
F: No.
K: Nowadays, they do everything. Not in the old days. [For instance] that may wife would stay at your house to watch your children, cook your food...
F: I see, still, maybe [domestic work] was shameful in the eyes of some people.
K: No.
F: [Wouldn't they say] "Ah, this man, he works as a boy, [he does] a woman's work?"
K: No no no no.
F: No?
K: No no no.
F: Never.
K: No no no no. Yes, but say, how are you going to live with your wife if you don't have work?
F: Yes, yes.
K: One must work to have a little ...?... to eat, to live.

9. ABOUT SIMILAR DOCUMENTS AND WRITING IN SWAHILI

9. ABOUT SIMILAR DOCUMENTS AND WRITING IN SWAHILI

F: hata: maandiko ingine/ nazani: zamani: déjà mu les années trente: bengine bengine balianza kuandika ma: [interjects] mémoire tunasema nini mu Swahili?
K: makumbusho/
F: yaa: ya makumbusho/
K: oui/
F: donc: balianza kuandika makumbusho: ao: balifanya: collection ya mahistoires ya arisi: ao ya macoutumes: eeh: ku village: ao ingine ndoto: baliandikaka?
K: si je me rapelle bien: oui/ parce que wakati ule: watu ingine wanakuwa wajifunza kabisa/ mais mamémoires walikuwa walikuandika mu kiSwahili/
F: oui/
K: par example/ anaona kitu fulani kilitendeka: inchi fulani/
F: oui/
K: yee anakamata ile mémoire yake: anafanya/
F: anafanya/ ile: uli: uliisha kuona?
K: [hesitates] je pourrais dire oui je vu çela: mais: apana leo/
F: tena/ hapana leo?
K: apana leo/
F: zamani oui?
K: zamani kabisa/
F: tena balikuwa kuandika ma: mikanda: barua/
K: ...?... mabarua évidemment/
F: mingi mingi/
K: mabarua: na oui/ si walikwenda masomo?
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/
F: kwa famille...
K: famille: kwa rafiki: kwa ndugu: oui/ oui/ oui/ walikuwa wanaandikiana mabarua/ wanapasha mabarua...
F: mais...
K: dans le temps voyez: les nègres: prenaient des papiers comme ça: chez le: chez le commissaire: il va avec ça comme ça/
F: ah oui/
K: ...?... quelques kilomètres: mais oui/ c'était la poste/
F: c'était la poste/
K: c'était la poste/
F: donc ils apportaient...
K: ils apportaient guichet ali...?... ils apportaient la lettre/
F: ah bon/
K: ...?... de passage vers là-bas: il dit: vous allez laisser ceci à tel endroit: à tel endroit/
F: oui/
K: oui/
F: sasa: kama wee ulikuwa auteur/ wee ulikuwa kuandika docume: document ya hii namna: utachanger?
K: traduction kabisa/
F: namna gani?
K: nayee: en appuyant sur ce qu'il a dit/
F: oui/
K: oui/ parce que unaona: ana: ana: anaandika biSwahili yake: bon/ mi niko muTabwa/ tunasema: il ne faut pas confondre/ mi hapana muntu ya humu/ mi hapana mu kiSwahili huku/ ile kiSwahili iko huku...?... kiSwahili ovyo ovyo hii/
F: mm/ mm/ bon: utafanya/ sasa wee unaona kazi yangu hapa: unaona namna gani?
K: wa namna gani?
F: minatafuta nini?
K: wee unataka kujua: mambo gani ilitendekako zamani ku Katanga/
F: mm/
K: njo unatafuta kujua wee/ ...?... unataka kujua nini? ni namna gani ilianza ile? ilipita namna gani ile? na wanani walikuwa wakubwa na wadogo?
F: oui/
K: iliendelea namna gani ...?... kisha kupata uhuru wabo/
F: ma ku ile ngambo unaona: kama ni bien?
K: ...?... parce que mule...
F: ana: anasema kweli: na tena: ni sawa complet/
K: lakini/ ni mbele ya kufanya hii kazi: ingalipenda: ingalipenda/ c'est par votre intérèt/
F: mm/
K: kumuona baba Ngoi Léon/
F: oui oui/
K: peut-être: yeye anaweza kuongeza: anaweza kutoshamo/ vous voyez ce que je dis?
F: oui oui/

F: About other writings. I think in the old days, already in the thirties, there were some who began to write down their -- what do we say in Swahili for memories?
K: makumbusho
F: Yes, that's it, makumbusho.
K: Yes.
F: So, they began to write down their memories, or they collected histories of stories and customs from the village, or others [noted] their dreams -- was this done?
K: If I remember correctly, yes. Because at time some people worked hard at their education [in French] but their memories they wrote in Swahili.
F: Yes.
K: For instance, a person would see that a certain thing was done in a certain country.
F: Yes.
K: He would take his memory and write it down [lit. do it].
F: He would do it. Have you seen this?
K: I could say yes, I have seen this but not nowadays.
F: Furthermore...Not nowadays?
K: Not nowadays.
F: But long ago, yes?
K: Very long ago.
F: Furthermore, people were writing papers, personal letters.
K: .... of course, letters.
F: Many, many [did this]?
K: [Write] letters? Yes. Had they not gone to school?
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: [They wrote] to the family...
K: ... the family, friends, relatives, yes, yes, yes. They were write each other letters. They gave the letters....
F: But...
K: You see, in those days the negroes just took papers [and brought them] to the commissioner and he would take them along.
F: I see.
K: ...?... a few kilometers, yes. That was the mail.
F: That was the mail.
K: That was the mail.
F: So they brought...
K: Thy brought the letters to the counter.
F: I see.
K: [If the person bringing the letter would learn that some one] was on his way to its destination he would say: "You can leave this at a certain place.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Now, if you were a writer, if you would write a document like this [the Vocabulaire], would you do it differently?
K: [It would be] a translation, by all means.
F: How is that?
K: [I say this] based on what [the author of the Vocabulaire] said.
F: Yes.
K: Yes, because, you see, he wrote down the different things he had to say. Let's say, I am Tabwa, this must be clear. I am not a person from here. [My language] is not the local Swahili. This local Swahili is a mixed-up Swahili.
F: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You should do it [nevertheless]. Now, how do you see my work here?
K: How?
F: What am I after?
K: You want to know what happened in the old days in Katanga.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: This is what you want to know. ...?... you want to know what it was, how did it come about, who were the bigshots and the little people.
F: Yes.
K: How did it go after they got their freedom.
F: As far as this is concerned, from your point of view, [do you think the Vocabulaire] is well made?
K: ...?... [it is] because in it...
F: Does [the author] speak the truth, and also is [the Vocabulaire] complete?
K: Yes. And before you took up this work, you liked it, you liked it. It was because you had an interest in it.
F: Mm-hmm.
K: About seeing baba Ngoi Léon.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Maybe he can add things, or reject things. You see what I am saying.
F: Yes, yes.