1. T: minawaza bumoja: baba: ni kutafuta
T: pale tutaendelea na ile burafiki yetu:
tutasikilizana mu burafiki yetu: tutawazana mu burafiki yetu: minawaza: siye
tutakutana: kuta pamoja/ kwa sababu: kama hatukusikilizane: hatutafutane:
bumoja hakutakuya/ minawaza: ule bumoja...?...burafiki/ bule bu: burafiki
hakutakuya wa masimango/
T: ao wa mazarabu/ bule: burafiki kutakuya
ba kuwekeana mawazo/
T: huyu atakuya kwa huyu: huyu atakuya kwa
huyu/ ni pale tutaanza burafiki bwetu/ bule burafiki bwetu: kama bunakuya kwa
ku chaku: ba ku: kuya na burafiki juu ya chakula/ siku ile chakula yetu
itaisha: minawaza: bule burafiki yetu: butaisha/
F: [overlapping] taisha/
T: kama tunakuya na burafiki juu ya kuleta
nguo ao juu ya kuleta mali: siku ile yote itaisha: minawaza burafiki:
T: kumbe burafiki ni nini? burafiki ni
masikilizano/ burafiki ni umoja/ ile mateso itakamata kwa baba ao kwa mama: wee
wote ukuye pale/ kama kunatokea magumu: ule mama: ule baba: abebe ile magumu:
ikuwe sawa yake/ pale: ule: rafiki kama ataona vile: minawaza: atawaza asema
huyu anapitaka: nduku: ule tulizalikwa naye: tumbo moja/
T: kumbe ni kule kunaanza: burafiki:
burafiki njo kunaleta umoja/
[pause; another baba arrives and is
1. T: About unity, baba, I think that it
is above all a matter of striving for friendship.
T: When we'll make progress with our
friendship, we'll find mutual understanding in our friendship, we'll share
thoughts in our friendship – (and when this happens) I think we come
together. Because, if we don't understand each other and don't look out for
each other, unity will not come. I think that unity depends on friendship and
friendship is not going to come from masimango.
T: Or from contempt. This
friendship comes from exchanging thoughts.
T: If one comes to the other, that is where
our friendship will begin. If our friendship were based on food (we share) I
think it would end on the day when our food is finished.
F: [overlapping] Finished.
T: If we find friendship because we give
away clothes or we give away (our) wealth I think that the day all this is
gone friendship will end.
T: So, what is friendship? Friendship is
mutual understanding. Friendship is unity. The suffering that befalls a baba
or a mama should get to all of you. When troubles appear, every baba and mama
should bear them is if they were theirs. I think when a person realizes this
he is going to think that this friend is even more important than his own
T: So, that is where friendship comes in,
the kind of friendship that brings unity.
[pause; another baba arrives and is
2. F: ile bumuntu:
T: bumuntu ...?...bumuntu/
F: si njo kintu kikubwa ya kupita yote?
T: mm/ bumuntu wetu/
F: mawazo: mawazo kwa Baba Placide tena: bumuntu/
T: [to Baba Piere] muanzake yako/
[a short deliberation among those present
about who should speak now]
F: mais ni paka pa kutukumbusha/
T: [to Baba Pierre, in Tshokwe] mwende....?...
Others: [urge Baba Pierre to begin, Mama
Thérèse coaches him, but then Baba Gabriel takes the floor]...
T: ...vile: mbele ya kuyua bumuntu bwa
mwenzako: tena ujue bwako/
G: mm/ njo paka ile/
F: hii njo mwanzo? mwanzo ya: mafundisho?
G: ni vile/ mwanzo alikwenda: ile mwanzo
G: naye na mafundisho ile: ule baliweka bwa
rafiki: kuikupa rafiki: vile baba anapita kumisema: minakuambia yote ile:
G: njo fasi utaanza kujua sasa bumuntu bwa
ule muntu mwenzako/
G: maneno pale anapata mateso: ile mateso inageuka
G: kwa sababu nani muko naye mu bumo:
F: mu bumoja/
G: ni pale unajua/
G: unajua bumuntu yake: vile iko nateswa: na
vile unapashwa wee kuteswa/ njo kuta: utajua asema kweli: sasa minataka kujua
kabisa kabisa muntu naona bintu/ kwa kujua mawazo yake/ kwa kutolea mawazo
yake/ maneno hakuwe tena na kintu kingine ile ataweza kubakia nakye hapana/
G: anakutolea mawazo yake na wee unamutolea
kwako na munakuwa kintu hiki:
G: ni paka sasa kutakuya kujua bumuntu wa
muntu mwenzako/ bumuntu wa muntu wenzako utakujua ku nini? ni paka vile
ukaangaria ku mateso ku bintu bingine vile unaona bye: yee kumupita nguvu
kwake: binakuwa sawa byako/ maneno bintu batakufansia: eh: wee kama unafansia
bitakuwa bibaya/ na vile yee ile anabiona bibaya: na vile njo utaona bibaya/
G: kwa sababu ule muntu wa kufahamu mambo
vile njo anatambuka muntu wa muntu mwenzake/ ni kule tunajua asema ni bule bumuntu/
G: kwa sababu bumuntu buko mara mbili/
T: kama unafansia sawa..?...
G: kwa sababu kama unamufansia mwenzako
mubaya habujue bumuntu yako/
G: kama unajua bumuntu yako utapasha
kufansia mwenzenu vizuri/
G: kwa sababu na wee bizuri...?...ataweza
G: kwa sababu hakuna muntu anapendaka
G: anapendaka ...?...:
G: anapenda buzu:
G: vile unapenda buzuri: unapenda na buzuri
bwa muntu mwenza:
G: bwa muntu mwenzako/ kumbe unajua bumuntu/
2: F: (Now about this idea of) what it
means to be human, bumuntu.
T: Bumuntu, we get to bumuntu.
F: Is that not more important than
T: Mm, our bumuntu.
F: An idea, a thought (that came) from
Baba Placide (Tempels). Bumuntu.
T: [to Baba Pierre] Start with your (mafundisho,
[a short deliberation among those present
about who should speak now]
F: But this is only to make us remember.
T: [to Baba Pierre] Go on ....?...
Others: [urge Baba Pierre to begin, Mama
Thérèse coaches him, but then Baba Gabriel takes the floor] ...
T: ... (tell us about how) before you get
to know the bumuntu of your neighbor you should know your own.
G: Mm. That's the point.
F: Is that the beginning? The beginning
of the instruction?
G: That's right, that used to be the beginning...
F: I see.
G: ...of the instruction about friendship,
how to give friendship. As baba said to you in passing, I tell you all about
G: That is, about the moment when you'll
begin to know the bumuntu of this person who is your neighbor.
G: It happens when he suffers grief and
this grief becomes like you own.
G: Because you are one with him in uni:
F: in unity.
G: That's when you know.
G: You know his bumtuntu, how he
is suffering and how you need to suffer. That's when you realize, truly I
want to know this person looks at things. By getting to know his thoughts,
when he offers his thoughts. Because there ought to be nothing that he should
keep to himself.
G: He offers you his thoughts and you
offer him what is inside you and you become:
G: Only then it happens that you know the
bumuntu of your neighbor. What is it that lets you know your
neighbor's? It is when you looked and saw that the things that made him
suffer more than he could bear became yours.
Because what they do to you -- if you do
the same, this will be bad. That way he sees what is bad the same as the bad
things you see.
G: Because when this person is familiar
with the problems it means that one will understand those of his neighbor.
That is when we know, this is bumuntu.
G: Because, there are two kinds of bumuntu.
T: If you do something ...
G: Because if you do something bad to
your neighbor you don't know your bumuntu.
G: If you know your own bumuntu
you are bound to treat you neighbors well.
G: Because when you treat him well he can
do the same.
G: Because there is nobody who likes what
G: Who likes ...?...
G: He likes what is good:
F: What is good.
G: As you like what is good you also like
what is good for your neighbor.
G: For your neighbor. That's when you
3. P: ...ni kule njo unajua bumuntu wa
P: mi/ sipate kilondo ku maungu yangu/
maneno ya nini nitapata kilondo pamoya? ...?... sawa/ kama minakuumiza wee kilondo:
P: iko bumuntu yako/ mais yangu
P: juu ya nini?
T: njo ananiongeza/
P: kumbe ...?... si njo bumuntu?
P: kumbe bumuntu: ya kwanza kumujua
mwenzako/ umuone kama: bintu yote iko unamutesa: na wee unaisha kukuteseka/
kumbe ile mateso yake uikuwe naye weye: sawa yako.
P: yee hatatesa mu kipeke: weye uipende
umukankamisha asema dis: twende hivi: angarie hivi: tunafanye hii:
kusaidiana...?...njo kule kutatoka: njia ya bumuntu/ kwa sababu muntu: bamingi
habaitike umuntu: banajua paka ya kusema: Baba Jean: balisaidia pa...?.../
ahah/ lakini...?... /
P: njo bumuntu tunasikilizana naye/
P: Baba Gabriel alitufansia pa kintu
kifulani/ njo banakusaidia/
P: alakini: kubasaidia ile hainako
kubasaidia kama ni: juu ya chakula: hii habaina bumuntu/
P: ile ni umuntu inakukosana/ maneno:
minamupenda ule muntu sababu yo minamusaidiaka ku mateso yake niko naye/
T: [whispered] niko naye/
P: sasa ule anasaidiaka: yee atajua
bumuntu yake namna gani? na mi nitajua ...?... namna gani? kumbe inapasha
kusikilizana na ule muntu: kwashiyo karibu na mi/ iko mbali: mateso yake:
inakuwa sawa yangu/ ni yee atayua bumuntu namna yake kuwa...?... kweli:
mais muntu anayua bumuntu ni kintu gani/
P: ni vile tutapata njia ya kutakutana:
kuwa na uzima: kama tuko kwashiyo kuyua bumuntu: ni paka sasa kutafuta/ vile
yee ni muntu: sawa mi ni muntu/ inafaa nimufansie muntu/ inafaa minamusaidie:
inafaa kumus: tusikilizane:
P: tutafute masikilizano ya bumuntu: kuwa...
F: kuwa umoja/
P: kama vile hainako:
3. P: ...that's where you recognize the bumuntu
of your fellow muntu.
P: Me, I am not alone when when I am
wounded. Why is it that I am going to share the wounds. If I injure you.
P: Are your bumuntu and mine then
T: Because he and I complement each
P: So, ...?...is that not what bumuntu
K: Therefore bumuntu means above
all that you know neighbor. You should see that everything that you do to
make him suffer will cause you suffering. Therefore his suffering shoud be
P: He will not suffer in solitude. You
should care and give him support. Hey, let's go now, have a look at that,
let's do this. Just helping each other. That is where the way of bumuntu
will apear. Because there are many who don't respect umuntu, all the
knows is that Baba Jean...?...
Yes, but ...?...
P: It is through bumuntu that we
understand each other.
P: Baba Gabriel may have done something
for us. That is helpful.
P: Hower, being helped is no help if it
is (only) about food. That is not bumuntu.
P: That is something where both of you
lack umuntu. Because I love this person and that is why I help him in
his suffering which is (also) mine.
T: (whispered) Is mine.
P: Now how is the one who is helpful
going to know his bumuntu? An how am I going to know it? What it takes
it to come to mutual understanding with a person (even) he is not close to
me. He may be far away, his suffering is like mine. He will know about bumuntu,
he knows what bumuntu is.
P: That is how we'll find the way to meet
each other and become whole. If we don't know about bumuntu yet, we
should search for it right away. He is muntu as I am muntu. I
must do something for him as muntu. I must help him, we must
understand each other.
P: Let's seek the mutual understanding
that comes from bumuntu and becomes...
F: ...becomes unity.
P: If there is nothing like that...
4. T: [interrupting] sawa mufano:
T: sawa mufano: vile tuko mu Jamaa/
T: beko bengine: beko inje ya Jamaa/
T: si vile?
F: ni vile mama/
T: sawa mupagano/
T: ule muntu: tunapashwa kwanza kusaidiana
naye: tujuane naye bumuntu/ si vile?
T: aha/ pale nitaona mateso kwake: ananiona
mi niko karibu kwake/ ?siku ananiangaria:
T: kwa mufano: tuli: tuko na mama moja/ ule
mama tuko naye: ndani ya Jamaa/
T: baba wake: hana mu Jamaa/
T: sasa: siku balipata mateso: minawaza:
bamama na bababa balifanya kazi/ ule baba: aliona ya kwamba kama: sina ndugu:
angaria bale bantu nilikuwa nabo mbali/ mi sikuwe kuwaza asema kule kuko
nini? hapana/ angaria pale minakuwa na mateso: bale bababa na bamama balinibeba/
T: minakuwa nabo kintu kimoja/ bananisaidia/
T: pasipo kubalipa/ pasipo ku: ba: bapa
kintu fulani: kumbe miye nitazalika kwabo/ si ni bitendo vile weliona?
T: ule baba/ si aliona bitendo yetu?
T: sasa ule baba shee tunamuzala/ maneno
matendo ile tulimusaidia/
T: tunazalamo/ kumbe ni ile bumuntu kwa
kusema: hatutaweza kusaidiana na: [pauses] na jamaa huyu zangu ule tunayua
T: tutasaidiana ...?...[noise]
T: sawa mupagano kwa mufano/ naweza kumusaidida/
naweza kumuonyesha kitendo yangu/ na wee kumuonyesha: mifano yote/ ni yeye/
kama anapata mateso: minakuya karibu/ [noise] kuna muntu? shee tutapatana
naye? shee tutayuana naye?
T: eh/ sasa: kama mi minaonyesha mufano
pake mule mu Jamaa/ sasa bapagano: hapana/ minawaza: bataitika? habataitika/
bumuntu kumbe: ni: kusasaidiana/ kusaidiana pa nini? paka pa mateso pale/
kama kunakuya mateso: ao kunakuya mangumu: mi niko karibu/ kama yee anakuya:
rafiki: ni kusema: kitakuya nguvu wa kujuana?
T: haitakuwa nguvu hapana/ kumbe ya
kwanza ni masikilizano/ masikilizano na masaidiano katika mateso/ minawaza/
Bwana Yesu alisema: kama uko na kipaji: hii mu kipande ya muti ndani ya licho
T: unakiacha unakwenda/ utaweza kwenda
kutosha kya mwenzako pasipo mbele kujiangaria wee moya? ya kwanza
utajiangaria wee moya/ kiisha njo unakwanza kutosha: mwenzako/
T: kile kipo mu licho/ kumbe na shee
bamama na bababa: kipande ya bumuntu ni kusikilizana/
T: ni kuangariana pa mateso/ ni kule uko
kuwa naleta bumuntu: kwa kujuana/ kwa sababu kama ...?... mu mateso:
hunapatikana mu mateso: kunaonekana burafiki ao kusikilizana hainako/
T: kumbe ni ile/
4. T: [interrupting] For example.
T: The way it is with us in the Jamaa,
T: There are others who are outside the
F: Right, mama.
T: Take a pagan.
T: We and this person must above all help
each other, we should get to know each other's bumuntu, right?
T: Yes. When I'll notice the suffering in
him he will see that I am close to him. He looks at me.
T: For instance, we have a mama who is
with us in the Jamaa.
T: Her baba is not in the Jamaa.
T: Then, on a day when they met with
suffering, I think, the mamas and babas (of the Jamaa) did their work. This
baba (I mentioned) saw (what happened). I am not their relative, (he told
himself), look at what those people (are doing for me), people with who I had
nothing to do. Am I not going to reflect (on this), what is this? No (I am
going to think about it). Look, when I was suffering those babas and babas
T: I became one with them. They helped
T: Without having to pay them, without
giving them whatsoever. Therefore I am going to be born among them. Were our
deeds not observed?
T: Did this baba not see our deeds?
T: When we acted and helped him, that is,
when we gave life (lit. give birth) to that baba.
T: That's where we give life. Therefore, bumuntu
means that helping each other should not be limited to my family that I know.
T: We are going to help each
T: Take a pagan, for instance. I can help
him. I can show him how I act. And you this to him in all sorts of ways. When
he suffers I come to be nearby [noise] There is a human being. Are we not going
to meet each other? Are we not getting to know each other?
T: You see. When I behave that way only
inside the Jamaa and not among pagans, are they going to follow my example? I
don't think they will. Bumuntu, then, means to help each other.
Helping each other with what? With the suffering then and there. If there is
suffering, if there are problems, I am nearby. If he is already a friend is
this going to be something that gives me the strength to get to know each
T: There will be no strength. Therefore,
the first thing is mutual understanding. Mutual understand and helping each
other in suffering. I think The Lord Jesus said, if you have a piece of wood
in your eye.
T: You leave it there and go on. Could
you go and remove something from (the eye) of your neighbor without first
looking at you yourself? First you should look at yourself, then you may
remove for your (the eye of) you neighbor.
T: The piece in his eye. So, for us,
mamas and babas, understanding each other is part of bumuntu.
T: It is about looking after each other
in suffering. That is what brings about bumuntu, knowing each other.
Because if you don't come together in suffering, obviously there is no
friendship or mutual understanding.
T: So that's it.
5. S: ile mufano: baba: kuta: kwiko
S: ku hii mambo ya mafundisho ya bumuntu/
S: mita: patia: exemplaire moya/ tazama:
humu mu cité twiko mu camp ya Gécamines Musonoi humu/
S: hii manyumba hii banajenga: na
manyumba ile mwiko mu ville: iko inye ya kuachana/ hii banaweka modèle ingine:
ile iko mule mu ville banayenga modèle ingi:
F and others: ingine/
S: alakini ule muntu baliingisha ndani ya
ile nyumba: [pauses] ni muntu paka namna moya/
sasa muntu kama imekwisha kuingisha mu
ile nyumba yake:
S: iko mu ville: anaangaria asema aaah:
hii nyumba yangu iko muzuri/ kushinda ile ya mu: mu Musonoi/
S: sasa anaanza kujisifu juu ya nini? juu
ya nani: juu ya nyu:
F and S: ya nyumba/
S: anajisifu juu ya nyumba/ alakini ule
muntu iko mu nyumba ya Musonoi: na ule muntu iko nyumba ya monpère: ni muntu
paka namna hii:
F and others: moja/
S: sasa ni kile Mungu alisema: minaumbe
muntu kwa mufano yangu/ anaumba muntu katika mawazo: ile mawazo atamuingisha
mawazo makubwa matatu/ Mungu ku: muntu alimupata masikilizano: masaidiano: na
mu: na mapendo/
S: bile bintu tatu: Mungu anata?weka na wee
muntu wake/ kiisha kuumba muntu: anamutuma duniani humu: njo anabebe ile
mambo anamupatia asema: minakupatia sasa bumuntu: minakupatia masikilisano:
masaidiano na mape:
F: na mapendo/
S: alafu anakuya sasa kumuingisha manyumba
ya kuacha: ya kuachana/ ni kule sasa munaona kunatoka: huyu: iko mweupe: huyu
iko mwekunda: iko murefu mufupi/
S: alakini sasa: ile manyumba ile: tumekwisha
kupata ile manyumba: tunaanza kujisifu naye/
vile huyu: na ule iko mu ville anajisifu
asema mi niko na chambre moya muzuri: iko malata muzuri/ u: uliko Musonoi iko
na: iko na kanyumba kabaya/ alakini ule muntu iko ndani ni paka muntu namna
S: sasa kile kilikuwa kutuharibisha bumuntu
bwote ni nini? kwa sababu ile mwili tunaanza tutembea nayo: ni ile inakuwa
kutu: kutuharibisha bumuntu/ alakini bumuntu ni nini? Mungu aliumba muntu
paka na mawazo hii matatu/ alimuambia: usikilizana na muntu mwenzenu/ hivi
utayua mingi/ musaidiana na muntu mwenzenu: utajua mi: upende na muntu
mwenzenu/ hii njo mambo makubwa mata:
S: matatu/ inapashwa kuyenga muntu katika
S: kumbe bule bumuntu: ni kule kulitangulia
S: pale kulitangulia kwa Mungu: njo
banasema: inafaa na mwee muko kwenu/ pale Mungu ana: analeta nguvu mu
dunia...?...asema: ile mambo vile mi nilikuwa naye kwangu: na wee minakupatia
ile mambo/ kumbe na wee kwenda ukapenda muntu mwenzenu/ sawa vile anajipenda
wee: mwenyewe/ ni kule baliuliza baYuda banamuuzi asema: utuambia amri kabisa
kabisa: kushinda ya ku byote ni amri gani? Mungu alibaambia utamupenda Mungu
na ma:.mawazo yako na roho yako yote/ ya mpili: utamupenda muntu mwenze:
mwenzenu/ iko ...?...unajipe: unajipenda/
S: sasa leo pale tunakuwa kamata ile
manyumba: hii manyumba ya mwili tunaanza kutembea nayo: tunatoka kila mawazo
ya Mungu: bumuntu bunafanya bunaharibi:
F: and others: bunaharibika/
S: kumbe kama tunatafuta asema tujenge Jamaa
kabisa kabisa: inafaa kila muntu ajue bumuntu bwa: bwake/ kama unajua bumuntu
bwako: utajua bumuntu ya muntu mwenzenu/ ni kule Mungu yee wa ku nguvu:
aliona ya kama duniani hii mi ni kuweza na sifa/ ni juu ya kuumba dunia
mwenyewe? anaumba na mu: na muntu katika mawazo/ [pause] kumbe pale aliumba
na muntu katika mawazo: yee ni Mungu wa uzima: anaumba na muntu katika mawazo:
pa kushusha muntu hatukumuacha vile anamuambia asema na weye ukapendana muntu
mwenze: mwenzenu/ kumbe inafaa kujua bumuntu: muntu ni nini? ni masikilizano:
masaidiano: na mape:
F and S: na mapendo/
S: vile unajitakia wee mwenyewe: utakia
na muntu mwenze: mwenzenu/ alakini pale tunafikia hapa mu duniani: pale
banatupatia manyumba: mufano minakupatia/ huyu iko na nyumba murefu: huyu na
nyumba mufupi: huyu na nyumba ekunda asema aah: mi niko na nyumba mwekunda/
ao murefu/ njo nikasema ule: ule: kale kanyumba kafupi/ mais unaanza kujisifu
juu ya: juu ya nyumba/ alakini ule muntu iko ndani unamusaha: unamusahabu/ alakini
kama tunafahamu muntu iko ndani ya mawazo ile: ule muntu na tuko ginsi sema:
ku ginsi asema: kwiko Mungu: hauweze kujisifu ya: ya: ya mwili hapana/ c'est
pourquoi uliona mangumu ...?... kutoka na mateso ingine: juu ya nini? juu
bantu habakuyue bumuntu:
S and others: hapana/
S: hata eklesia katolika/ bababa bale ba:
baskofu balitufundisha na bengine: kama balijua bumuntu bwabo: habakutafuta
uta...?... bubaya hapana/ tazama/ yeye Mungu ule vile minatoka mukuambia:
Mungu: haikuwa mutajiri/ comment ?kumbe yee: yee mwenyewe? aliumba na muntu/
bon: Yesu: pa kufika duniani: habakombole yee mwenyewe? anasema nikupe kala ba:
na bantu/ anachagula bamitume/ na Baba Placido: pa kufundisha hakuya yee peke
yake/ alisema bababa na bamama kuyenga tujenge kani: kanisa/ ni tu wenye
mawazo ya Mungu/ tunatumika naye/ na yee alikamata mawazo ya bantu: anaweka ndani
ya moyo: mpaka anaweka ndani ya moyo: huku ni kuwa sasa kuungana asema:
tunakuya kuonyesha mawazo ya Mungu/ lakini kama leo Baba Jean iko hapa/
S: sasa: wee unasema mi niko: kama uko ...?...
bukubwa kwa mufano/ sasa hii bukubwa yako unakuwa kuibuweka ndani ya muntu/
sasa ukiutaona muntu ...?... asema ni muntu?
S: hauwezi kujua/ maneno kile
kinakupatia: eeh: eeh: butajiri ni nini? ni mwili/ pale unakuwa kubeba ile
mwili unasahabu bumu: bumuntu/ njo sasa eklesia katolika alisahabu bumuntu/
kama alijua bumuntu: hakutafuta leta ma mangumu namna hii/ njo pale ile sauti
tunasema: si tu iko bantu mwenye kufunza/ baaskofu/ comment tuenee kwenu
kwenu kushikia mambo ya ka: ya muntu chini kwashipo kufunza?
S: banapoteza nini? banapoteza bumu:
F and others: bumuntu/
S: ile mapendo: masikilizano: est-ce que
iko inye kuachana?
S: ni paka mapendo namna mo:
F and others: moja/
S: balileta ku mutajiri na mashiki: na
mashikini/ murefu na mufu:
S: muzungu na mweu:
F and others: na mweushi/
S: si paka mapendo namna moya? paka hatubujue
bumuntu bwetu: njo paka tunaharibisha ile mapendo/ kumbe ya hapa sasa
tunakwenda ndani ni nini? ni kutafuta mawazo ya bumuntu/ ile inapasha kujenga
bumuntu/ kama haujue bumuntu bwako: Mungu [claps] hautakumuya/
T: sawa njo pale/
F: ni vile/ ni vile baba/
5. S: There is this example, baba. There
is a little example.
S: Which is relevant to the instruction
S: I'm going to give you an example.
Look, here we are in the settlement, the (workers') camp of the Gécamines
here in Musonoi.
S: The houses they built here and those
you have in town, they are different. Here they used one model, there in town
they built another:
F: and others: Another one.
S: However the (kind of) person they
moved into those houses [pauses] is muntu just the same. Now, when a
person has been moved into his house.
S: (A house) in town. He looks at it and
says ah, this how of mine is beautiful, it beats the one (I had) in Musonoi.
S: So, what does he praise himself for?
For the hou:
F and S: For the house.
S: He is proud of the house. But the
person who lives in house in Musonoi and the one who lives in the residence
of a missionary, they are muntu of the same kind.
F and others: Of the same kind.
S: Now this is what God said, I am going
to create muntu after my likeness. He created muntu in His thoughts.
That idea was that he would endow muntu with the three great thoughts.
God gave him mutual understanding, mutual help, and love.
S: Those three things God gave to you,
his muntu. After he created muntu he sent him here to earth so
that he would carry the thing he gave him. (God said) I give you bumuntu
now, I give you mutual understanding, mutual help, and lo:
F: And love.
S: However then he put him into different
houses. That is why you see you see that this one turned out white, that one
red, tall or short.
S: So, to return to the (example of) the
houses we were assigned. We begin to praise ourselves for them.
Others: ...?... Someone who lives in town
praises himself, I have a beautiful room, a decent roof. The one who lives in
Musonoi has a tiny, shabby house. But the person who lives inside it is muntu
of the same kind:
F: The same kind.
S: So what was it that completely ruined bumuntu
for us? I has been this body we walk around in. That's what ruined bumuntu
for us. What is bumuntu? God created muntu with those three
thought. He told him, come to a mutual understanding with your neighbors, that way
you are going to know a lot. (If) you and your neighbors help each other, you
are going to know a lot. Love you neighbors. Those are the three things that
F: Three (things).
S: The three (things) that are bound to form
a person according to his bumuntu.
S: So, this bumuntu was how we
were before God.
S: So that was how we were before God.
Then they said, you should have this where you live. God then gave (us)
strength on earth. The things I kept to myself, He said, I am giving to you.
Therefore you should go and love your neighbors as you love yourself. So then
the sons of Juda kept asking him, tell us, what is the commandment that is
more important than all the others? God told them, you should love God with
all your thoughts and with all your soul. Second, you should love your
neighbors as you love yourself:
F: As you love yourself.
S: Now, when we take those houses – the
houses which are the body we walk around with – (but) as soon as we leave the
thoughts of God (our) bumuntu is ruined:
F and others: Is ruined.
S: Therefore, if we really seek to form
the Jamaa everybody should know his bumuntu. If you know your bumuntu,
you know the bumuntu of your neighbors. God Almighty saw that he would
be praised for this on earth. For creating the world by itself? (No) he also
created man in his thoughts. [pause] He created muntu in his thoughts
– He is God who gives life – and when he had this put muntu down on
earth he did not just leave him there like that. He told him you and your
neighbors should love each other. That is why it is necessary to know bumuntu.
What is muntu? Mutual understanding, mutual help, and lo:
F and S: And love.
S: What you wish for yourself you should
wish for your neighbors. But when we arrived here on earth, we were given
(our) houses as (I told you) in the example (I talked about). One had a tall
house, the other a short one, yet another had a red house. Ah, (he tells
himself) I have a tall house, or a red one. And I also mentioned a short,
small house. But what happened then was that you began to praise yourself for
the house (you have) and you forgot muntu who is inside the house.
However, if we recognize muntu inside the thoughts, that muntu
who resembles God, you cannot praise yourself for your body. Therefore you
saw problems and suffering coming about. Why? Because people didn't know bumuntu:
S and others: No, (they didn't).
S: Take the Catholic Church, the bishops
and others who taught us. Had they known their bumuntu they would not
have sought to treat us badly. Look, God, as I just told you, God was not
like a rich man (who kept his wealth) to himself. He also created muntu.
Jesus, when he arrived on earth, was he a
savior for himself? He said, let me live among the people. He chose the
apostles. And Baba Placide, when he taught he didn't do it all by himself. He
said, babas and mamas, let us build a church. That was in accord with the
thoughts of God with which we do our work. He took the thoughts of people and
put them in their hearts. That is where it came from that we got together and
show the thoughts of God, as we do today when Baba Jean is here.
S: Nowadays you say, I am... For
instance if you hold a high position you identify your high position (lit.
put inside) with (your) person. When you see someone who (is poor) are you
going to say that he is muntu?
S: You are incapable of recognizing
(him). Because what is it that makes you rich? It's the body. Once you flaunt
your body you forget bumuntu. That is how the Catholic Church forgot bumuntu.
If it recognized bumuntu it would not seek to cause those problems.
That is what we talk about (when we say) we are people who learn. Take the
bishops. How can we understand what you are after when what we hear are things
that come from a low person without learning?
S: What is it they lost? They lost bumu:
F and others: Bumuntu.
S: Does love and mutual understanding come
in different kinds?
S: There is only one kind of love:
F and others: (There is only) one.
S: It was given to the rich person and
the poor, the tall and the short:
F: The short.
S: The white and the bla:
F and others: And the black.
S: Is it not love of the same kind? If
we ignore our bumuntu that is when we destroy that love. Therefore,
what is it that keeps us going right now? It is searching for the thoughts of
bumuntu. That is what is needed to form bumuntu. If you don't
know your bumuntu [claps] you are not going to know God.
T: That is the point.
F: That's how it is, baba.
6. F: bon/ tunaanza kuchoka/
T: twende pale ...?...
P: [overlapping]... manyama nabo banaweza
kujua bumuntu yao?
F: manyama hapana/
P: anaweza kujua bumuntu?
P: sasa namna gani muntu anajua bumuntu:
anachukia muntu mwenzake?
P: kwa kuchukia muntu mwenzako: kwa
sababu haujue bumuntu ya:
F and P: yake/
P: unafanana mufano na nyama/ kama ulijua
bumuntu: hautaweza kuchukia muntu mwenzako/ hauweze kusema huyu ni mweushi:
huyu ni mweupe: huyu ni mubamba: huyu ni mwekunda: huyu ni mufupi/
P: kwa sababu muntu iko paka namna hii:
F , P and others: moja/
P: bumuntu njo iko kunakosakana mu dunia/
P: ni ile kintu balileta balichagula Baba
Placide ku: kusema ingishe bumuntu kwiko bantu bafahamu/
P: bafahamu bumuntu yabo: kuuana itaisha:
mashimango itaisha: chuki itaisha/ kwa sababu ile byote binaleta juu ya nini?
juu ya vile banakufuatilika ku baba jibu inaleta vile/
P: butajiri:[pauses] bunaua bumuntu/
F: paka vile baba/
P: bunaua bumuntu/ mutaweza kujua kama uko
mutajiri hauwezi kujua mwenzake asema ni yee ni muntu/ anajijue yee juu ya
nini iko muta: mutajiri/ ajue tele bumuntu wa muntu mwenzake/ anamutakia sasa
kutaka mubaya/ ni paka lufu/ ni vile unaona dunia inaharibika/
bantu ba mule: mwee mu dunia muzima: habajue
bumuntu/ kama balijua bumuntu kama hakuna mavita: hakuna bintu bya kuuana:
hakuna bya hivi/ kama bantu/ ni vile Mungu anaweka bantu humu mu dunia/
[pauses] alibatakia paka buzuri/ vile Mungu iko muzuri: aliweka tena muntu mu
paradiso akuwe muzu:
F and P: muzuri/
P: pale bantu balikosa bumuntu sasa unaona
kunakuya sasa: kukatolelana kukatolelana kukatolelana: kunakuya sasa
P: kukosa kujua bumuntu/
F: ni vile/
P: kwa sababu mafundisho ya bumuntu ni kintu
nguvu Baba Jean/
P: kintu nguvu sana zaidi/
F: [overlapping] kweli/
P: kwa muntu kukibakie naye...
F: ...tulijikaza tulijikaza: tunazeka:
Others: [chuckles and comments]
T: bado kupata/
F: bado kupata/
P: eheh/ [chuckles]
T: eyo baba/
P: mm/ ni kintu kya nvuvu sana: bumuntu/
P: mm/ bumuntu ni kintu kya hatari kwa
sababu kama unajua bumuntu...
F: aaah/ bon: [pause] nakupikia aksanti
6. F: Alright. We start getting tired.
T: Let's go on where....
P: [overlapping] ...can animals know
F: Animals, no.
P: Can an animal know bumuntu.
Other: It won't know about it.
P: So then, how come that a person who
knows bumuntu hates his neighbor?
P: You hate your neighbor because you
don't know his bumuntu.
F: His (bumuntu).
P: You behave like an animal. If you knew
bumuntu you could not hate your neighbor. You couldn't say this one is
black, that one is white, this one is big, that one is short.
P: Because muntu is only of one
F, P and others: One kind.
P: Bumuntu that is what we lack on
earth. That is what Baba Placide was chosen for: to bring bumuntu to
people so they would know about it.
P: Once they know their bumuntu
there will be an end to killing each other, to rejoicing over another's
misfortune, to hate. Why was all this brought up? So that people would heed the
answer Baba (Placide) had (for that question).
P: Wealth [pauses] kills bumuntu.
F: That's how it is, baba.
P: It kills bumuntu. When you are
rich you are incapable of knowing your neighbor, of recognizing him as muntu.
He should know himself and understand why is it I am rich. And also he should
know the bumuntu of his neighbor. Should he wish him ill then it's the
death (of bumuntu). So see, this is how the world goes to pieces. The
people – all of you all over the world – don't know bumuntu. If they
knew bumuntu there wouldn't be wars, killing each other, and all the
things people do. When God put people here on earth [pauses] he wanted for
them only that there be goodness. As God is good so he put man in paradise to
F and P: To be good.
P: Then people sinned against bumuntu
and now you see what happens, nothing but abusing each other. There is [in
French] domination now.
P: Failing to know bumuntu.
F: That's it.
P: Because the teaching of bumuntu
is difficult, Baba Jean.
P: Something very difficult.
F: [overlapping] True.
P: For a person to keep it...
F: ... we tried and tried (lit. exerted
ourselves) and now we are old...
Others: [chuckles and comments].
T: And still don't have it.
F: And still don't have it.
P: Yes. [chuckles]
T: Yes, baba.
P: It is a very difficult thing, bumuntu.
P: Mm. Bumuntu is (also) something
dangerous because if you know bumuntu...
F: Aah, well, [pause] I thank you ...