1. F: ...zungumuza tu: utufundishe kiloko: utuletee: [pauses] mafundisho ja: ya Jamaa/ ni: juu ya nini? mbele ya kutufundisha/ tena vile vile: kwa kutuletea: mufano moya sawa vile munafundisha: munafundishaka sasa mu: Jamaa/
L: mm/
F: yenu/ [pause]
L: mm/ kumbe tutaomba kidogo/
F: mm/
L: hh/ [pause] tuombe/
K: mm/
L: tazama: Bwana Yezu rafiki yetu Mungu moya ma: tunashukuru jina lako/ ni kweli Mungu wa huruma: nimefika/ na njo maana yote kadiri umeipanda tumetingeliza/ mambo hayimekwisha kwa siku mingi: mara moja tulikuwa nasikiliza tu/ ikiwe kama tuna Baba Fabian hapa siku ya leo: ni kwa ajili ya kujenga/ mawazo yetu tunania kuko kama Jamaa itasili kuendelea katika umoya kukote? na ?bioma na siku ya leo tuna kitumaini kama kama utasiri kutupatia nyema na nguvu: na musaada kutoka kwa kusiri kutukuza/ hivi tusiri kurudisha umoja wa kweli Jamaa yote nzima: katika nguvu kutoka kwako mu jina na wee Kristu Bwana wetu: amena/
All: amena/ [pause]
 

1. F: ...we had a conversation – (now) teach us a little, give us a Jamaa mafundisho[1]. Why (am I asking for this)? First of all because you may instruct us and, furthermore, to give us an example of how you are used to teach in the Jamaa.
L: Mm.
F: (I mean in) your (Jamaa). [pause]
L: Mm. So, let us pray a little.[2]
F: Mm.
L: Yes. [pause] Let us pray.
K: Mm.
L: Behold Lord Jesus, our friend and only God, we thank your name. Truly, God of mercy, I have come (before you) with everything that you brought on us, (our) troubles that have not come to an end for a long time. But then we heard that we would be with Baba Fabien today (and we knew) this would be edifying. The thoughts we have in mind are: Will the Jamaa be able to continue everywhere in unity? And ...?... today we hope that You will be able to give us kindness and strength and help us to grow and to bring back true unity to the Jamaa as whole with the power that comes from You, in the name of You, Christ, our lord. Amen.
All: Amen. [pause]

2. L: mm/ na ni wazi: jambo yetu:
All: yambo yetu baba/
L: mawazo makubwa kadiri tunapima kutana: na weye wakati tunakutana leo hapa: ni ya yetu kubwa ni paka ile: tunaendelesha: kwa kujua wazi kama: kitu kikubwa tunatafuta nia moja kwa: na mu ungano/ njo neno kubwa zaidi/
F: mm/
L: na njo maana tukiangaria mawazo makubwa ya kutupatia kazi leo kwa kujua wazi kama tunaendelee na hii njia: ni wazo kubwa: hasa ya bumuntu/ kwa sababu muntu kila mara ana mateso makubwa sana/ leo tunaweza kukutana leo hapa kadiri tuko naongea/ labda moya wako weye/ ulipenda tuonane: na sisi tulikuwa na moya roho kwa kusema tuonane: ni nani wee ushulika pale pa kuonana? ni paka muntu mawazo/ njo sababu tunasema: tusionane tu: ...?...fwatana ma wee: maulizo unauliza kwa kusema kama: unatutakia nini? katika maisha ya nkundi la Jamaa: kama vile mateso tunateswa siku ya kutosha: na: una: utakuwa na ule moyo: kama vile Baba Placido? alikuwa na moyo ya kutupenda/ na kupenda watu/ waonyeshe njia ya kwenda vizuri: ni njia muntu alitafuta zaidi mu hii wazo kama: bantu kwa kupatana inafaa bawa: bawaze mo...
All: ...moja/
 
 
 

2. L: Mm. Of course (we start with our greeting) yambo yetu...
All: ...yambo yetu, baba.
L: It is about some important thoughts that we are trying to come together with you in our meeting today. Foremost among them is for us this: Are we going to make progress in our understanding of the one important matter we seek to resolve and (can we) do it by agreement? This is a very important matter.
F: Mm.
L: That is why, when we consider the great thoughts that occupy us today as we try to understand how to continue on this road, it is above all the great thought of bumuntu (we should consider). Because muntu always suffers a lot. Today we can meet here and spend some time together. You are the special occasion, you wished to see us, and we were unanimous about seeing you. Whom did you come (to talk about) when you arrived to meet with us? It is none other than muntu mawazo.
Because we say, let us not meet just to answer the questions you ask. In other words, (we want to know) what is it you want from us? (When we talk about) the life of the Jamaa, about the suffering we endured since we were expelled (from the Catholic church) – will you have the same desire and courage as Baba Placide? He had to courage to love us, and to love Africans. He wanted to show them the good way, the way man has searched for, (following) the idea that, if people are to encounter each other they should think alike.
All: Alike.[3]
 

3. L: na njo sababu tunasema muntu: ni fungu/ muntu: ni nyama/ muntu: ni mawazo/ tunakutana katika ile mawazo kama muntu iko na sehemu tatu/ kama iko ...?...sula tano: mu sala ya kumi inne inasema: kama: muntu ni nyama: muntu ni mawazo: muntu ni roho/
F: mm/
L: eh? maana yake: muntu ni fumbo/ muntu ni nyama/ ile sehemu tatu inaikutane ...?...munaona kama: ile sehemu: wakati tuko hapa kama muntu: tunatumika muntu fumbo: habitatembea muzuri/
F: mm/
L: na: hamutapatana/ na njo sawa mankundi ya Jamaa inakuwa iko sawa watu wengi walitumika na mutu fu: fumbo/ maana yake habeko wazi/ anasema hapa bantu tunapatana si kunapatana/ lakini moyo wake hauna wa:
Others: hauna wazi/
L: muntu nyama ni ule mutu tunakutana katika maisha mara moja: anaweza kuwa hapa: kukutana ku kulala ndani ya nyumba anaweza kuwa moya vitu anaiba: ule tunamuita ni muntu ya: nyama/ muntu mawazo: njo ule tunatafuta mwenye kuwa na mawazo ya uzi: ya uzima/ njo mutu mwenye kutumika na mawazo ya ro: ya roho/ ni kama vile tuko na baba superviseur Kimuni: yeye unaweza kumuuliza/ mukono ni wa nani? ataniambia mukono ni wangu/ kichwa ni cha nani? atasema kichwa ni changu/ wee nani? mi mutu/ mutu iko wapi? haoneka:
F and L: haonekane/
L: sasa wa kumupata wazi wazi: inafaa tupate mawazo yo:
F and L: yote/
 

3. L: And that is why we say muntu is a composite being. Muntu is animal, muntu is thoughts. According to those thoughts muntu has three parts. As it says in the fifth chapter, prayer fourteen,[4] muntu is animal, muntu is thoughts, muntu is spirit.
F: Mm.
L: Right? Which means muntu is a puzzle. Muntu is animal. When it comes to those three parts you realize that, as long as muntu remains a puzzle for us, things will not go well.[5]
F: Mm.
L: And you are not going to come together. That is what happened to groups of the Jamaa. It was like many people laboring under the puzzle of muntu. What that means is they are not open. Someone says, we are coming together, aren’t we? However, his heart is not op...
Others: ...is not open.
L: Sometimes we come upon this animal muntu in daily life. There may be someone we meet when he stays in (our) house and he turns out to be thief. That kind of person we call muntu nyama (animal). Whereas muntu mawazo is the one we seek, someone who is inspired by the thought of wholeness. That is a person who lives with the thought of spirit. Take our supervisor here, Baba Kimuni. You may ask him, whose arm is this? He’ll tell me, the arm is mine. Whose head is it? He’ll say it’s mine. Who are you? I am muntu. Where is muntu? (Muntu) is invi...
F and L: ...invisible.
L: Now, to meet (muntu) in the open we must get hold of all the thoughts...
F an L: ...all of them.
 

4. L: na hii kuna wa ndani njo tunatafuta/ kama yee anaharibika ni kule wa ndani: na mutu wote ana: anaharibika/ tulete mufano: kama mi niko hapa: nikiharibika: utanitambua? utafahamu macho: itaharibika: midomo itaharibika: kusema kuta: kutaharibika/ na nyo ile wa ndani akiisha kuharibika: analeta nguvu yote: na bitu yote bina: binaharibika/ mu kule wa ndani kama anasimama muzuri ule muntu mawazo wakweli kama anasimama: atakuwa na hamu ya kubeba benzake bo:
F and L: bote/
L: njo kule: kulikuwa hii mawazo ya kuiwaza kama: wakati bantu baliweza kupatana: mapenda iliru:
F and L: ilirudi/
L: kulikuwa ku upesi kama: muntu ni mugonjwa: tunakuya na mara moya mbele kumuangaria/ ni ...?... mizito hapana/
F: mm/
L: lakini wa ndani kama anaharibika: ataanza kuuliza ni nani mwenye: mulikuwa na mugonywa? ni fulani/ atasema aaah/ ule fulani mi simupendaka hapana/ maana yake: ule wa ndani anaharibika moya na migu:
F and L: na miguu/
L: na miko:
F and L: na mikono/
L: na ma:
F and L: na macho/
L: na kiisha kutembea kwenda kumutembelea fulani anakata:
F and L: anakatala/
L: lakini kama ule muntu mwenzako uko nani: naye ndani ya mawazo: hata mi kuita kuwe ...?... wa kwe:
F and L: wa kwenda/
L: kama na kule kumuangaria sawa mutu mawa:
F and L: mawazo/
L: na yee vile kintu hii ki:
F and L: kimoja/

4. L: And what we seek is (muntu) inside. When something inside gets damaged (muntu) is damaged as a whole. Let us give an example. Take me here. Are you going to notice when I damage something? You are going to see that the eyes will be injured, or the lips, such that that one cannot speak. And when that which is inside has been damaged it will have the power to ruin everything. But when this muntu mawazo inside is truly upstanding he will have the desire to support all his fellow human beings.
F and L: All of them.
L: That is where people get the idea that, if they manage to encounter each other, love will have come ...
F and L: ...will have come back.
L: A person can easily become sick. (Then)  we go to see him at once. That is not a burden.
F: Mm.
L: But someone who is damaged inside will ask who was this the sick person? It was so-and-so. Aah, he’ll say, that one I don’t like. Because, being damaged inside, this person is like someone who broke his feet...
F and L: ...his feet.
L: And his arms...
F and L: ...and his arms/
L: (Hurt his) eye...
F and L: ...his eye.
L: To go and visit the one (who is ill) is something he refuses ...
F and L: ...he refuses.
L: Whereas that muntu mawazo who is inside you will tell me ...?... to go...
F and L: ... to go (and visit the sick).
L: When you are there you look at him as muntu mawa...
F and L:  ...muntu mawazo.
L: (You) and he are one...
F and L: ...one.
 

5. L: na njo sababu wakati tuko hapa: kama si tunasema hii Jamaa/ kadiri Baba Placide alifundisha: alituonyesha wazi wazi kama: muntu wa kweli: ni ule muntu mwenye kutumika na mawazo ya buzima buzazi na mape:
F and L: na mapendo/
L: maana yake ...?...kutakia benzake buzima: buzazi: mapendo: bila kuwatakia magu: magumu/ mutu akiisha kuharibika anaanza kutakia benzake magu:
F and L: magumu/
L: anageuka mwizi: anageuka mongo: anageuka musharati: anageuka matetano: na njo kule sasa mawazo yote ili: iliharibika/
F: mm/
L: kumbe leo kama si tunakutana: tunapenda ule muntu wa kweli: tuziri kumutafu: kumutafuta/ na kwa kumutafuta sasa inakuwa naomba nini? inakuwa naomba paka mawazo ya [with emphasis] kufikiri kuwaza/ kama kweli matendo nilitenda leo: tangu asubui mupaka mangaribi: ni nzuri ao ni ba: ni mba: ni mbaya/ leo: nilitembea njia nilikosana na nani ndani ya nji: ya njia/ na mama ndani ya nyumba/ tulikosana tulipatana mu sauti ao hapa: ao hapana? sasa: kama tunaanza kufikiri vile wee mwenyewe unajikuta ndani ya bumu:
F and L: ya bumutu/
L: kama muntu hajikute: hawezi kutembea muzu:
F and L: muzuri/
L: kama muntu anajikuta: anaanza kuji: kujiona kosa kama ha: ile fasi niliko:
F and L: nilikosa/
L: kama pa ile fasi nilikosa: wakati nilikosana na Baba Kimuni mu sauti: nikitoshe tena hii sauti? kama tunakosana: vile hatutapata: hatutapatana/ kumbe sasa wakati utaanza tutambua asema aah: kumbe sawa tunatosha kwa mama ni mba: ni mbaya/ ile natosha kwa muntu fulani ni mba:
F and L: ni mbaya/
L: kumbe nitaanza kutosha sauti ya kuiweza kupatana tabia ya: yake/ kumbe njo sababu inafaa tunaongopa si bote: tuache muntu fu: fumbo/ tubakie na muntu mawa:...
F and L: ...mawazo/
L: mwenye kutumika mawazo ya nini? ya uzi:...
F and L: ...ya uzima/
L: sababu tukitembee na uzima: tutatembea bantu ba kwe...
F and L: ...ba kweli/
 

5. L: Because when we are here now to talk about the Jamaa according to what Baba Placide taught us – he showed us clearly that the true muntu is the one who practices the thoughts of wholeness, fecundity, and of...
F and L: ...of love.
L: Which means that he wishes his neighbors wholeness, fecundity, love, without wishing them trouble. A person who is damaged (inside) wishes his neighbor trouble...
F and L: ...trouble.
L: He turns into a thief, a liar, an adulterer, a trouble-maker and that is when all thoughts are ruined.
F: Mm.
L: So, when we meet today it is because we want to search for this true muntu. And what does it take to search for him now? All it takes is [with emphasis] really to ponder this idea. (Ask yourself) what I did today, from morning to evening, was it good or was it bad?
Whom did I offend today when I walked the streets? And what about mama at home? Did we wrong each other? Did we talk and come together or not? Once we begin to think like that you find yourself in bumu...
F and L: ...in bumuntu.
L: If a person does not find himself he cannot live (lit. walk) well...
F and L: ... well.
L: When a person has found himself he will look at himself and see his fault. (He’ll tell himself) this is where I did...
F and L: ...I did wrong.
L: If I did wrong when I offended Baba Kimuni with what I said – am I going repeat that? If we do wrong to each other we won’t encounter each other. That is the moment when you reflect on (what you did). Aah, you tell yourself, when I talked like that to mama this was bad. And what I said to so-and-so was bad...
F and L: ...was bad.
L: Therefore I am going to talk in a way that makes it possible to come together and respect a person. We all must be anxious to leave muntu fumbo behind and stay with muntu mawa...
F and L: ...mawazo.
L: Realize the thought of what? Of whole...
F and L: ...of wholeness.
L: Because when we live with wholeness we’ll live as people who are truly bantu...
F and L: ...truly (bantu).
 

6. L: kumbe ni ile: nazani ni ile mawazo adisi ilese: ilite: ililetea Baba Placide asema kama: muntu wa mu: eh: muntu wa mukwenu: ?kamu wela kuboko/ mu tumbo ya mwenzako sikia muko: mukono/ sababu ya nini? unaweza kumuingilia mwenzako hamujue kwenyeye i: iko/ sasa kwa kumujua kwa upesi: mpaka kuanza mu ile mu ile wazo ya kwanza ku sa...
F and L: ...ku sauti/
L: unaanza kumuuliza: habari gani? habari muzuri/ unaishi ye: unaishi nje: naishi hivi: pole pole mukiisha kuelewana: muntu anaweza kupatia mo...
F and L: ...moyo/
L: njo ku tunaonana mara moya kama muntu: iko nakwenda tembea: kwa mufano: iko mu kupita unaweza kusema kama huyu muntu anakwenda: ni yee moya/ hana yee moya hapana/ kwa kumujua kama ni yee moya: mpaka kujua mawazo ya...
F and L: ...yake/
L: kule mwengine anapita hapa: kiisha kufika pale: anaanza: banaanza kumuzomea/ aliiba bintu/ sasa banasema: eeh: atakuwa peke yake tena? sasa kutakuwa bantu kinkundi: banaanza kuya banasema anaiba/ alikuwa na kitu pe: peke/ lakini akiisha kuiba kunakuwa bantu bami...
F and L: ...bamingi/
L: sasa tu naye muntu: alikuwa natembea na bantu wa nini: alikuwa natembea na mawazo ya bui...
F and L: ...ya buizi/
L: ule muntu tunamuita ni muntu fu...
F and L: ...fungo/
L: mara moya anapita: anapita hapa/ kiisha kidogo anamukamata mukono/ ao ni busharati/
F: mm/
L: sasa bantu banabisha naye pamoya banakuwa kizumbua banaanza kumuzomea/
F: eyo/
L: hana peke yake tena: sasa kumbe alikuwa natembea na mawazo muba:...
F and L: ...mubaya/
L: kumbe mwenye kwenda tu peke: bumuntu wa kweli:
F: oui/
L: na kurudia bila kutenda mubaya: ule njo tunaita muntu wa kwe:...
F and L: ...wa kweli/
L: njo sababu/ byote muntu byo anaformer byote tuko naye/ kama mukono mi niko hapa: kama muntu anaharibika mu nyumba: ni mukono atatumika kupiga ma: mama? ni muntu wa ndani atamusukuma asema pi: piga/ na anamupiga ginsi yote anapenda/ na anaweza kumutendelisa anapenda/ kintu gani kinaharibika? ni mukono? hapana/ ni macho? ao ni miguu? ni ule wa nda: wa ndani...
F and L: ...wa ndani/
L: na njo tuna...?... kama: ile sauti ya ule muntu mawazo ni kusema kama: hiki ni changu: hiki ni changu infafaa ipatika...
F and L: ...ipatikane/
L: tuione/
F: mm/
L: na tukiisha kuiona: mi na baba hatutakuwana magumo hapana/
F: mm/
L: sababu mitayua sitamutendea mubaya kwa sababu ni mu...
F and L: ...ni muntu/
L: vile yee anapenda njo vile mi nape...
F and L: ...napenda/
L: na huyu naye: sitamukosea/ kwa sababu napashwa kupendana na bantu yo...
F and L: ...yote/
L: kwa sababu kama yee anasikia mu magumu minasikiaka magu...
F and L: ...magumu/
L: sasa tunaanza kutembea na ule muntu: mawazo: muntu wa kwe...
F and L: ...wa kweli/
L: ile mawazo ilikuwa ndani: iliisha kutembea muzuri: na mwili wote muzima: unaongoza na mawa...
F and L: ...na mawazo/
L: kumbe ni pale tunaona kama: kadiri si tulikuya: eh? mara moya kama muntu anatembea na gari: bon: gari inaanguka/ anaanguka nayo/ tutasema ni kosa ya gari? ni kosa ya mu...
F and L: ya muntu...
L: kwa sababu muntu mwenye kuwa ndani: njo anapashwa kutembea gari muzuri/
F: mm/
L: kama yee analewa pombe: anakunywa sana: anatembea na gari ovyo ovyo/ tutasema: ile accident ni kosa ya gari? ni kosa ya mu...
F and L: ...ya muntu/
L: kwa sababu: kama nilikunywa pombe angeongoza gari muzu...
F and L: ...muzuri/
L: kumbe: humu mwili yote muzima: ni kama gari/
F: mm/
L: na njo sababu mawazo njo inaongoza mwi...
F and L: ...mwili/
F: mm/
L: kumbe kama mawazo inaondoka muzuri: na mwili itatembea muzu...
F and L: ...muzuri/
 

6. L: I think that this thought is (expressed) in a proverb[6] Baba Placide quoted. Where you come from, they say “...?...”[7] In your neighbor’s belly listen to his hand. Why? Even if you could get inside your neighbor you would not really know what is there. To get to him fast you begin with (expressing) what you think: by speaking...
F and L: ...by speaking.
L: You ask him, how are you? Fine (he answers). How is life? Life is as it is. Bit by bit, as you come to the point where you connect, a person can open his heart...
F and L: ...his heart.
L: That is the moment when we see each other as muntu who goes about (his life). For example, when he passes by you can tell, whether this person is unique[8] or not. To can know whether he is unique only if you know his thoughts...
F and L: ...his thoughts.
L: (To give you another example), someone approaches and when he gets there people start accusing him, he stole things, eh, will he be alone? A crowd comes together saying, he stole something, he got away with something.
When it turns out that he committed a theft this involves many people...
F and L: ...many.
L: In that case (it is clear) that he was going around with thoughts of theft...
F and L: ...of theft.
L: Such a person we call a muntu fu...
F and L: ...fungo.[9]
L: He happens to pass by and soon someone hold him by his arm. (It's  the same when) he commits adultery.
F: Mm.
L: Then people argue with him, they expose and blame him.
F: I see.
L: He is no longer alone. Therefore (it is clear) that he went around with bad thoughts...
F and L: ...bad thoughts.
L: Therefore someone who goes around by himself, (with) true bumuntu...
F: Yes.
L: ...and returns without having done anything bad, he is one we call a true muntu...
F and L: ...a true muntu.
L: Because we have everything that makes up a human being. Be it an arm – I have one. Say, a person does damage in his home, is it his arm that makes him beat his wife? It will be the inner muntu who urges him: (Go) beat (her). And he beats her in every way that pleases him. And he can do to her whatever he likes. What is it that does wrong? Is it the arm? No. Is it the eye or the feet? It is something inside...
F and L: ...inside.
L: That is when the voice of this muntu mawazo tells (us), this or that may be mine but it must be shared...
F and L: ...it must be shared.
L: We should see it.
F: Mm.
L: And once we saw it, baba and I won’t have problems.
F: Mm.
L: I’ll know that I won’t do something bad to him because he is muntu...
F and L: ...he is muntu.
L: What pleases him is what pleases me...
F and L: ...pleases me.
L: And I won’t do wrong to him because I must love everyone...
F and L: ...everyone.
L: Because when he is in trouble I am in trouble...
F and L: ...in trouble.
L: That is when we begin to walk with this muntu mawazo, the true muntu...
F and L: ...the true muntu.
L: Once those thoughts inside go well you, your entire body is going move forward with your thoughts...
F and L ...with your thoughts.
L: So we realize that this is the point, right? Take a person who happens to drive a car. Alright. The car turns over and he with it. Are we going to say that it is the fault of the car? It is the fault of the person...
F and L: ...of the person.
L: Because it is the person inside who has to use the car properly.
F: Mm.
L: If, being a drinker, he had too much beer and drives the car recklessly are we going to say that it is the car’s fault when has an accident? It is the fault of the person...
F and L: ...of the person.
L: I may have been drinking but the car is functioning properly...
F and L: ...properly.
L: Here (we realize) that if a body is intact it is like a car.
F: Mm.
L: That is because thoughts control the body...
F and L: ...the body.
F: Mm.
L: Thus, when the thoughts function properly the body moves well...
F and L: ...well.
 

7. L: kumbe ni pale kadiri wee sisi tunakuya: ule uito tulikuwa nao sisi: tunakuya kufwata ule muntu mawa:...
F and L: ...mawazo/
L: ni hii tulisema: ulizo yetu kama: kintu gani kinakupata ile kazi: ya wee kufika hapa? ni bumu...
F and L: ...ni bumuntu/
L: sababu nitambua kama: ah: bale bantu ile mawazo balipokea/ ni ile mawazo beko nakwenda inendelea naye na leo/ banaendelea nayo namna gani? na si na tuko tunajiuliza kama hii mawazo iliacha huyu baba [Placide]: alitupatia sisi: anatuambia kama musitembee tena vile mulikuwa zamani na chuki na asi: na asira/ mutembee na muntu mawa:...
F and L: ...mawazo/
L: sasa ni nani: tutapatana naye ku hii mawazo tena kama vile tulikuwa na ule muntu walituonyesha njia ya ukwe: ya ukweli? na kama vile wee leo unakuya: tuko tunazungumuza hapa tuko na hii furaha ...?... kama kweli/ tulizani kama hii mawazo ilikuwa yake yee moya/ kumbe ilikuwa na bengine ma: bengine balikuwa na ile mawa: mawazo? sasa mawazo hapa inaungana: tutatafuta paka njia: ya kuonyesha bantu: batambue ukwe: ukweli/ muntu wa kweli iko namna gani? na muntu mubaya iko namna...
F and L: ....namna gani/
L: na njo kazi: ile tunapigania ya kufundisha usiku na buchana kama: tuache ile yote wa kurudisha mawazo ya bumuntu paka kutoka mawazo ya chu: ya chuki/ ya asi: ya asiri na mate: na matetano/ kwa sababu tukiisha kuwa na fitina: na magomvi: hatutatembea tena muntu wa kwe...
F and L: ....wa kweli/
 

7. L: So when we came to (meet with you) it was with the calling to follow this muntu mawa...
F and L: ...mawazo.
L: That was what we talked about and our question is: What made you take the effort to come to this place? It is bumu...
F and L: ...it is bumuntu.
L: I think the people who accepted that idea made progress with it to this day. How did they progress with it? We, too, keep asking ourselves about these ideas which baba [Placide] left us. He told us, don’t go on (living) as you did in the past, full of hatred and anger. Live with muntu mawa...
F and L: ...mawazo.
L: Who is the person we are going to meet through this idea as it happened when we were with the one who showed us the way of truth? When you came to this place today and we had a conversation it truly was a joy for us. We thought if he had this idea, were there others with him who had this idea? What brings us together here is the thought that we will search for a way that will show people that they should think about truth. What makes a person true? What makes a person bad? What is it...
F and L: ...what is it?
L: And that is (our) task, the one we are fighting over night and day, teaching that we should give up everything that makes us go back on the thought of bumuntu, in which case thoughts of hatred come out, (thoughts) of slander and bad-mouthing. And, once we give in to discord and quarreling, we are no longer going to conduct ourselves as true muntu...
F and L: ...true muntu.
 

8. L: ile ni kazi tunabakia naye busiku na muchana: kwa kuweza kuendelea/ sasa katika maisha tuko nakwenda naye: muntu katika uito wake: kama si letu tuko na kanisa: kuna uito namna tatu/
F: mm/
L: kuna uito wa ndani: kuna uito wa kanisa: kuna uito wa inje/ bon/ uito wa ndani ni kama vile sisi: tulisikia mawazo/ banatufundisha kama: muntu anaikalake hivi anaikalake hivi/ tulikuwa napigana/ tulikuwa nakombana/ tulikuwa nafanya mambo yote/ kiisha kusikia asema aah: kumbe muntu akikombana si muntu wa kwe...
F and L: ...wa kweli/
L: sasa pole pole: uito wa ndani ni huu tunakuwa nao leo: hatuko: hatuna najua kama si hatukuwa na kanisa/ lakini mara moya tulipokea sauti: ya Mungu inakuya asema: hii maneno: hata banamitesa: hata munapata magumu: inafaa muichu...
F and L: ...muichunge/
L: sawa tunakadirisha na ile mawazo Baba Placide alipata alisema mu kama: mweye mutaweza kunirudisha tena/ na mutaweza kuniendesha lo...
F and L: ...lote/
L: kumbe kumurudisha tuliona kama: tukikubali hii mawazo kadiri Muntu anatuambia: kama mukamate hii mawazo kwa nguvu: tutamurudisha baba alifundisha mawa...
F and L: ...mawazo/
L: ule sasa ni uito wa ndani: kufwatana ma ule ya Mu...
F and L: ...ya Mungu/
L: uito ya kanisa ni kama vile bantu yote banakuya kadiri Timoteo/
F: mm/
L: yee alipokea na uito wa kanisa/ eh? bana: bana: banamuambia kama: Timoteo: Paul anamushauria kama: Timoteo: shika maneno yenyeye uko nayo/ maana yake alipokea maneno ku njia ya kani...
F: and L: ...ya kanisa/
L: sasa uito wa inje: njo vile kama bantu yote beko natembea/ muntu mwengine anaona kinkundi ...?...kizuri: anaona kama Jamaa iko muzuri: sasa na bo kuingia: yee ni uito wa inje/ mara ingine anafwata ngoma: anafwata chakula: pole pole akisikia mafundisho ya kweli: ya bumuntu: anage...
F and L: ...anageuka/
L: lakini alik: alikuya na uito wa i...
F and L: ...wa inje/
L: sasa pole pole anasikia mafundisho anage...
F and L: ...anageuka/
L: anayua muntu wa kweli: anaanza kusema ah: nilikuya kufwata ngoma/ chakula/ banazikana / lakini sasa maneno ilikuwa ndani ni nzu...
F and L: ...ni nzuri/
L: aliona bya inje/ lakini sasa anapokea mafundisho: inamuge...
F and L: ...inamugeuza/
L: na njo sababu ile sisi: tunafwata: sasa ni uito wa ndani kwa kuyua kama: tulipokea kintu kiku...
F and L: ....kikubwa/
L: lakini kintu kikubwa: ni kile kinatupatia fahamu ya kupatana/ mara moja huku kwetu kwa asili kabisa zamani: watu walikuwa natembeleana bila magumu yoyote/ lakini sasa: ile mambo ilimalizika/ tangu mambo ya: mu kizungu kinakuya: mambo mbali mbali: sasa manyumba inakuwa na makufili: bantu banakuwa bezi: zamani nyumba yetu: haikuwa na makufili/
F: mm/
L: ilikuwa ni milango iko wazi wazi tu/ wala haweze wee ni muntu kuibu: muntu anasema hapana/ siwezi kwenda kumuibia muntu: buizi hakukuwa hapa hapana/ sasa ile mawazo Baba Placide bali...?...fundisha ile: ilitupatia wakati ya kuyua asema ni kweli/ bankambo yetu zamani: balikuwa na bumuntu wa kweli/ kama muntu anakufa mu mukini: bantu habawezi kutembea/ banaikala kita...?...na chumba banasema hapana paka tuzike muntu: njo tutafanya makazi mwengi...
F and L: ...mwengine/
L: lakini yee iko muntu munaharibika/ utaona mara ingine muntu anakufa: bantu banaanza kutumbea ovyo ovyo: sababa ya nini? habayue tena kama muntu ni na...
F and L: ...ni nani/
L: kumbe ni kule sasa tulitumbua kama huu uito: wa ndani: tunaitwa sisi kwa kuweza kufanya hii kazi: tutaokamata na mikono miwili kwa sababu: ni huu utapatia njia ya kuwa muntu wa kwe...
F and L: ...wa kweli/
L: na njo sababu leo tunapendana: baLuba: baSongye: si ku buLuba tuko nafika?
F: mm/
L: ku buSongye? hata tuko nafika? lakini si tunatembea fasi yote/ tunakula kwa bule/ tunalala kwa bule/ tunasaidiana/ ile yote ni njia ya kutumika na mawazo ya bumu...
F and L: ...ya bumuntu/
L: ni kule mawazo inatufikisha na leo: unaikutana kadiri tuko natembea na usiku na muchana/ yambo yetu...
F: ....yambo yetu baba/ eyo/
L: sasa kama wee uko na ulizo unaweza kuuliza kidogo...
 

8. L: That is what we work on night and day so that we may progress in the life we live with muntu according to his calling. In our church, that calling is threefold.
F: Mm.
L: There is the calling inside, there is the calling of the church, and there is a calling outside. Alright. (We follow) the calling inside, for instance, when we have understood thoughts. We are taught (everything) about the human condition. We used to beat each other, we used to fight each other, we did all sorts of things. Once we understand (thoughts) we tell ourselves, aah, someone who gets into fights is not a true muntu...
F and L: ...a true muntu.
L: Gradually, we acquired the calling inside, the one we have today. (But) we would not know about it if we didn’t have (our) church. Once we received the voice of God (we understood) that even though it may cause you suffering and get you into trouble, you must heed it...
F and L: ...you must heed it.
L: That is how we keep the thoughts of Baba Placide in mind when he told us, you will be able to make me come back and to accomplish for me everything...
F and L: ...everything.
L: We realized that we bring him back when we accept these thoughts which God told us to embrace firmly. We are going to bring back baba (Placide) who was a teacher of thoughts...
F and L: ...of thoughts.
L: So much about the calling inside which is to follow (the voice of) God...
F and L: ...of God.
L: The calling of the church is about all the people who come (to us), (as it says in Paul’s first epistle to) Timothy.
F: Mm.
L: He received (instruction regarding) the calling of the church, right? He was told – it was Paul who advised him -- Timothy, settle the arguments you have. This was because he had had arguments regarding where the church should go...
F and L: ...where the church should go.
L: Then there is the calling outside, regarding how everyone should conduct himself. A person may see that it is good to be part of a group and that the Jamaa is good. So, to have them join is the calling outside. Perhaps he follows the drums or comes for the food, little by little, as he listens to the right teaching of bumuntu, he is transformed...
F and L: ...transformed.
L: He had the calling outside...
F and L: ...outside.
L: Gradually he understands what is being taught and is transformed...
F and L: ...is transformed.
L: He knows true muntu and tells himself, ah, I went after the drums and the food to join their party but now (I realize) that was because (what they did) was good...
F and L: ...was good.
L: (At first) he just saw the outside but then he accepted the teaching and that changed him...
F and L: ...changed him.
L: And that was because what we are following is the calling inside, knowing that we received something great...
F and L: ...something great.
L: A great thing that lets us know how to encounter each other. Here in our country there was a time, long ago, when people got along with each other without any problems. But nowadays this is no longer the case. When colonization came it was divisive. Now houses have padlocks, people turned thieves – in the old days our houses did not have padlocks.
F: Mm.
L: It used to be the doors were just open. Nor could you be a thief. A person told himself, no, I must not go and rob someone – theft did not exist here. Now the thoughts Baba Placide taught us gave us pause and we knew it was true: Our ancestors long ago had true bumuntu. When a person died in a village people could not go on with business as usual. They would stay quietly in their houses. They didn’t say let’s just bury him and go back to (our) other chores...
F and L: ...other chores.
L: (It would mean) that you do damage to the person (who died). Whereas (nowadays) you are going to observe that a person dies and people just carry on. Why? Because they no longer know to whom a person belongs...
F and L: ...to whom he belongs.
L: That is when we understood what this calling inside is about. We are summoned to do this work. We’ll take it up with both hands because that is going to open for us the road toward being true muntu...
F and L: ...true muntu.
L: And that is why today we love each other, Luba and Songye. Have we not gone to Luba country?
F: Mm.
L: Or to Songye country? We went there. (When we visit) we eat for free, we sleep for free, we help each other. All that is the way to carry out the thoughts of bumuntu...
F and L: ...of bumuntu.
L: So that is where thoughts lead us today, thoughts that are with us in our life, night and day. Yambo yetu...
F: ...yambo yetu baba. [pauses] I see.
L: If you have questions you can now ask a few...
 

9. F: ...ao baba ana: taka kuongeza kiloko? sijue/
N: ndiyo/
K: jambo yetu...
F and others: ...jambo yetu baba/
K: [clears his throat] tuzane: tunafwatana mawazo ya baba: mchungaji mukulu Lutema Kapiteni/ njo ni mara ya kwanza tunaonana na Baba Fabien: kwake mu ...?... Lubumbashi: tunaongeza tena ile mawazo ya bumuntu baba vile anaongeza/ na ni kweli kweli kama tunaongeza ile mawazo ya bumuntu: ule muntu wa ndani: kwanza alisema: muntu fungo: muntu nyama na muntu mawazo/ kama: tukafwate hii mawazo ya muntu mawazo: ni ile itaweza kutuonyesha hata ufalme mwa mbingu/ sababu tunaweza kutafuta sehemu ingine: asema kama minaingia: mu Jamaa ya kutafuta mawazo yangu: ni paka kumutumikia Mungu wangu/ lakini mbele ya kumutumikia Mungu: ni lazima utafute ile mawazo yako ile ya mutu wa ndani/ ukaa muntu nyama: hauweze kupata ufalme wa bingu/ hauweze kuwa mutakatifu kama uko na mwazo ya muntu nyama/ kama vile mawazo ya buizi/ mawazo ya: uchuki ya kuchukia watu ao kupigana/ hauweze kupata ile wa kusema kama hii nitatapata utakuwa muntu wa Mungu hapana/ muntu wa Mungu: ataweza kufanana na Mungu ku mawazo ile ya ndani/ ni kama ile mawazo ya ndani kama vile tulisikia: mu mawazo: ni mule mulitoka asema kama: hata Jamaa yee ilikuwa mbele ku mawazo ya Mungu/
F: mm/
K: ile mawazo ya mapendo: ile mawazo ya masikilizano: ile mawazo ya masaidiano/ uzima: uzazi: na mapendo...
F: mm/
K: ...ilitoka ndani: ya mawazo: ya bumuntu/
F: unihurumie baba/ [recording biefly interrupted] tuendelee/
K: jambo yetu...
F: ...jambo yetu baba/
K: ni ile mawazo ya bumuntu: inaweza kule: kuongoza hata kazi yote/ mutoto gani: hana mawazo ya bumuntu/ hata masomo: hata maarisi/
F: mm/
K: hata kazi yote: hatatumika/ basi: kumbe ule muntu wote wa kupata...?....kazi: ni lazima ile wawazo ya bumuntu: itumike ndani yetu: na njo shee na mukubwa ya kanisa yetu ya Jamaa tunapenda kueneza ile mawazo ya bumuntu katika dunia muzima/
F: mm/
K: tuwe watu wa namna moya: watu wa tendo moya: watu masikilizano masaidiano/ kumbe paka hapa leo/ Père Placide alifahamu hii mawazo ya bumuntu: alikamata mawazo ya buzungu: alitupa/ alikuwa kamata sasa alikamata mawazo ya bantu mweusi/ sasa vile alituongoza: tunakuwa wantu wa asema kama: ni wantu wa Père Placide: Placide ilitoka ndani ya mawazo ya bumuntu/ mawazo ya bumuntu ni mawazo ya mapendo/ masikilizano/ masaidiano/ ni yee ilituletea hata sisi leo wa Afrika: tunapenda kuongeza mafundisho ya Jamaa kama: ile mawazo ilituletea Père Placide haitabakia: na Jamaa itaongezeka mupaka mwisho wa dunia/ tunatumika na wazo gani? tunatumika na wazo ile ya bumuntu/
F: mm/
K: ile wazo ya bumuntu ile muntu fumbo/ hawezi kuwaza ile mawazo kya muntu ni yee alitutendea kizuri/ muntu fumbo anafanana sawa na mbuzi na nyenda imbwa/ anaiba kitu hata ya nduku yao: baba yake yee kumufoka/ mbuzi anaweza kula hata chakula yake: anaweka kintu kizuri hapa: mbuzi anayua kuiba: ao imbwa anakuwa kuiba/ ni mawazo ya muntu: nyama/ sababu nyama haiwake asema hii mali ya baba yangu hapana/
F: mm/
K: muntu fumbo: ni ule muntu mwenyewe kutenda hajifahamu/ kama vile baba muchungaji mukubwa alisema/ ku ule muntu: ni fungo tunamuona: mwili/ na vyungo: na nsula na byote: na tunamuona ni muntu/ lakini ndani yake: hana bumuntu kamilifu/ hata watu wanaweza kumuona: matendo yake inonekana: huyu si muntu/ sababu anaonyesha ni nini? ni matendo/
F: mm/
K: ile matendo yote inonekana/ haionekane kama muntu wa kweli: muntu mwenye kuyua ile mawazo tatu/ kumbe: muntu mukamilifu yo tuko natafuta sisi kama: [pauses] tuwe watu yua kamilika: muntu mwenye kuwa na huruma/ muntu mwenye kuwa na mapendo/ muntu mwenye kuwa na nguvu ya kutumika/ ni mutu mukamilifu/ kama leo/ ungaliona ile matendo ya Jamaa/ ku mawazo yako: inyekuwa ndani: ...?...kuwa kuiyua kama ile wazo ya Père Placide ilikuwa nakamilika/ ...?...kutulika leo kuwa ungana na wee hapa? ni harama kubwa: inaonyesha mapendo: na leo tunaonyesha harama kusema kama: Fabien leo iko kati: ya watu: wa Jamaa/ wale watu walikuwa walikwe: ni kufwata iko ni juu ya nini? ni juu ya Jamaa/ mapendo ile ilikuwa pale: inakutuma leo nakutana pamoya: ile mutu mu wa ndani: ni mutu mapendo ule aliweza kukamilisha: ni siku ya leo tunakuwa kuonyesha kama: unaonyesha ile matendo ya kweli ya mapendo/ yo tuliita kama ni muntu wa kweli/ [pauses] kumbe nazani: sasa hakuna bingi ya kuongeza tena hapana/ jambo yetu:
F: jambo yetu baba/ ule baba yetu anatuongojea sasa na chakula/
K: mm/
F: sasa napikia aksanti sana/
N: ndiyo/
F: tuko kamambo ya kurèregler na secrétaire mais...
N: ndiyo/
F: ile ni mu mwisho/ eh: tupite tu ku salon sasa: merci/
K: ndiyo/

9. F: ...or would baba (Kimuni) like to add a little? I don’t know.
N: Yes.
K: Jambo yetu...
F and others: ...jambo yetu baba.
K: [clears his throat] Let us reflect, following up on the thoughts of baba chief supervisor Lutema Kapiteni. This is the first time we meet with Baba Fabien at his place in Lubumbashi. We are going to say more about the thought of bumuntu he talked about. He really spoke the truth when he explained this thought of umuntu, of muntu inside, and began with talking about muntu being a composite of animal muntu and muntu mawazo. Following this idea of muntu mawazo can enlighten us also about the heavenly kingdom. We may take a look now at another chapter: When I join the Jamaa to search my thoughts this is to serve my God. However, before you (can) serve God you must find among your thoughts the one of mutu inside. As long as you are animal muntu you cannot find the heavenly kingdom. You can’t be holy with the thoughts of animal muntu. Or take the thoughts of theft, thoughts of hating people, or of fighting with them – it impossible for you to become muntu of God. As muntu of God a person may be similar to God through those thoughts inside. With thoughts inside, it is as we have heard: It is in thoughts (inside) where the saying “the Jamaa originated in the thoughts of God” came from.
F: Mm.
K: Those (are) thoughts of love, of understanding each other, of helping each other. Wholeness, fecundity, and love...
F: Mm.
K: ...came from inside, from thoughts of bumuntu.
F: Excuse me, baba. [recording briefly interrupted] Let’s continue.
K: Jambo yetu...
F: ...Jambo yetu baba.
K: It is this thought of bumuntu which can accomplish everything. No child (is born) with thoughts of bumuntu, (nor does it get them) from school or from stories.
F: Mm.
K: All the effort won’t work. There fore, to find this muntu we all need those thoughts of bumuntu working inside us. And we and the leader of our church, the Jamaa, would like to spread the thoughts of bumuntu all over the world.
F: Mm.
K: Let us be people who are equal, people who
act together, people of mutual understanding and help, today, here and now. Father Placide knew this thought of bumuntu. He knew the European ways of thinking and threw them away. Then he adopted the thoughts of black people. That is how he succeeded in making us human beings, the people of Father Placide. Placide appeared in the thoughts of bumuntu. The thoughts of bumuntu are thoughts of love, of mutual understanding, of helping each other. It was he who gave them to us, to today’s people of Africa and we want to spread the teachings of the Jamaa so that the thoughts which Father Placide brought to us are not going stand still and the Jamaa may keep spreading to the end of the world. What is the thought we work with? We work with this thought of bumuntu.
F: Mm.
K: This thought of bumuntu, of muntu as an inscrutable being. You would not get this idea thinking that it is muntu who does what is good for us. Muntu the inscrutable is like a goat or a roaming dog. He steals from his people even though his owner (lit. father) scolds him. A goat will even eat his (owner’s) food. He may have put aside some treat, the goat knows how to steal it or the dog gets it. That is the thinking of muntu the animal. Because an animal does not stop to think this is the property of my master.
F: Mm.
K: Muntu the inscrutable is the one who acts without knowing himself. As baba (Lutema), our chief supervisor, said, in such a muntu we only see a part, the body. We see the limbs, the face, and all that and take him for a human being. But inside, his bumuntu is not complete. People may observe him and it appears that this person is not muntu. What is it that makes this apparent? It’s what he does.
F: Mm.
K: All his deeds are visible but he does not appear to be a true muntu, someone who knows those three thoughts. Therefore it is the complete muntu we are looking for [pauses] so that we master the task of becoming muntu full of mercy, of love, muntu who has the strength to do the work, which means muntu who is complete. Today, if you looked at what the Jamaa does, in your inner thoughts, you realized the thoughts of Father Placide were fulfilled. Wasn’t that what brought us together with you today? It has been a great occasion[10] to show love. Today Fabien is among the people of the Jamaa – what was this about? It was about the Jamaa. The love that was there made us encounter in each other this inner muntu. It was muntu full of love who made it possible. That is what we demonstrate on this day. You show how one acts truly with love. That was what we called a true muntu. [pauses] So, I don’t think there is much to add. Jambo yetu...
F: ...jambo yetu baba. Our cook is now waiting for us with the meal.
K: Mm.
F: For now I thank you very much.
N: Yes.
F: There remains a small matter to be arranged with the secretary but...
N: ...yes.
F: It is something (we can do) in the end. Well, let’s move to the dining room now. Thanks.
K: Yes.