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ISSN: 1570-0178

Volume 11, Issue 3 (19 February 2009)



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Swahili remembered
Two conversations

transcribed , translated, and annotated by

Johannes Fabian

University of Amsterdam


address:
Amsterdam School for Social Science Research
University of Amsterdam
Kloveniersburgwal 48
1012 CX Amsterdam
The Netherlands


 

Introduction

Text One

Text Two

 

 

 

Text Two

A conversation with Kisimba Adolphe (K) and Kalundi Mango (Ka) recorded on June 6, 1985 in Lubumbashi. The meeting took place in Kisimba’s office at the Social Services Department of the Gécamines. Kisimba’s recollections of  the emergence of popular music and theater provide valuable background (and occasionally counter-points) to the more recent material on Mufwankolo (see Archives of Popular Swahili, Vol. 6). For further information, see the Introduction.


 

Swahili text and English translation

1. F: ..?...[laughing] semaka/
K: bon/ théatre tulinanza: tungali batoto: ku boyscout na ku école Saint Boniface/
F: ku boyscout: eeh?
K: ndiyo/ mu: mu kila ya camp: tulikala unaona mu camp mu wakati ya kuchezesha bantu: tuko tunafanya: ma: sketch/
F: mm/
K: en tout cas: tunamandika hapana/
F: mm/
K: tulikuwa tu tunafanya ma sketch bule: tunawaza kintu ya kufanya: tunafanya: eh: temps: dix: vingt minutes maximum:
F: mm/
K: tuna: chekesha bantu: tunatoka/
F: mulikuwa moya na conducteur: ao: non?
K: non/
F: non/ non/
K: eeh: conducteur wa kwanza: alikuyaka ni: [hesitates] chauffeur wa gouverneur/ ni nani:
Ka: Michel?
K: Michele...
Ka: haina mbele:
K: ma: ma: Michele [hesistates]...
Ka: ah Michel Makasi/
K: Michel Makasi/ ah bon/
F: ah oui/ juu ya conducteur: si njo kama uko nafanya moya: paka....
K: hapana/
F: ...?... [overlapping]
K: hapana/ hapana/ ilikuwa tuko tunafanya: tu....
F: ...?...
1. F: ...?... [laughing] just talk.
K: Fine. With the theater we began when we were still children, with the Boy Scouts and at school, at St. Boniface’s.
F: With the Boy Scouts?
K: Yes. In every camp – you see, we used to go camping – when the time came to entertain people we performed sketches.
F: Mm.
K: We never wrote them down.
F: Mm.
K: We just used to do the sketches. We thought about what to do and we did it. We took ten or twenty minutes at most...
F: Mm.
K: ... we made people laugh and then left.
F: You did have a conducteur,1 didn’t you?
K: No.
F: No. No.
K: Well, in the beginning our director was [hesitates] the governor’s chauffeur, who was this again?
Ka:2 Michel?
K: Michel...
Ka: He was not the first...
K: Michel [hesistates]...
Ka: Ah, Michel Makasi.
K: Michel Makasi, right.
F: Yes. About this conducteur, don’t you prepare one, just...
K: No.
F: ...?... [overlapping]
K: No. No, the way it was we just did (the sketch).
F: ...?...
2. K: ....?conde [compte]: tunasema tunafanye nini? bon: tufanye: ni: eeh: mutoto: muzuri/
F: mm/
K: eh? mutoto muzuri: anasaidiaka ba: masikini/
F: eyo/
K: tunafanya: tuko tunapita mbele ya maskini: anasimama: baba munakusaidia mi: mi niko wa bule: na mutaingia ?mate
F: eeh/
K: eh?
F: eeh/
K: bon/ kiisha tunaunga tunaunga polepole polepole: inakuwa: murefu/
F: eeh/
K: tunafanya marépétitions inakuwa mulefu: tunaonyesha kwa mwenzetu/ tunacheka/ siku: tutafanya siku ingine: eh? bengine banaangaria: banatengenezamo kiloko: banaangoza: banatosha: tunafanya paka vile: kipande ita: tutafanya: kintu ya dix quinze minute sketch/ muzuri/ bon/ mu ...
F: munacheza wapi? ku ma....
K: ku camp/
F: camps de...
K: boyscout/
F: de scout?
K: bon/
F: ah oui/
K: kiisha: ku mafêtes mukubwa ya ma: [hesitates] patron?
F: mm/
K: eh: Saint fulani: Saint Georges par example: St. Paul: sawa ya scout/
F: Saint Georges njo?
K: wa bascout/
F: oui/ oui oui/
K: Saint Paul nayee wa baroutiers/
F: wa boyscout/
K: bon/ eeh: kama tunaona: tuna: ona vile: tunacheza ile muchezo tulicheza ku camp: sasa tunatengenesha: inakuwa muzuri kabisa/
F: eeh/ eeh/
K: unaona hakukuwa muntu asema huyu njo: promoteur huyu: njo hivi: hapana/
2. K: ...?... We said what should we do? Alright, what we should do is, let’s see, "The good child."
F: Mm.
K: Right? The good child who always helps the poor.
F: I see.
K: What we did, we would pass a poor person who would stop (and ask), baba help me and that is how you would get into (the sketch).
F: Yes.3
K: Right?
F: Yes.
K: Fine. Then we would slowly add to it until it was long (enough).
F: Yes.
K: As we went through rehearsals it would grow and then we performed it for our friends. We had fun. When we did it again some other day before another audience we would develop it a little further. Adding parts, dropping others, that’s how we did it. After a while we would come up with a good sketch of fifteen minutes. Alright, in....
F: Where did you perform? In the...
K: In the camp.
F: The camps...
K: ... of the Boy Scouts.
F: Of the Scouts.
K: Fine.
F: I see.
K: Later (also) on the big celebrations of the [hesitates] patron (saint).
F: Mm.
K: Yes, one or the other saint, Saint George, for example, (or) Saint Paul. Whatever the Scouts (celebrated).
F: Saint George, that is the (patron saint) of?
K: Of the Scouts.
F: Yes. Yes, yes.
K: Find. Well, we watched how we performed such a play in the camp and then we would improve it until it really became good.
F: I see. I see.
K: You see, there was no one who acted as a promotor or whatever.
3. F: ulikuwa paka batoto mwanaume ao bamwanamuke?
K: bamwanamuke bado ile wakati/
F: non/
K: bamwanamuke bado: waguides: mara mingi walikuwa baliimba bule/
F: mm/
K: habakuwake eko nacheza/ shee benyewe ...?kati tunaweka mu: nguo ya mwanamuke: tunacheza
huyu...
F: ndiyo/
K: mwanamuke/
F: ndiyo/
K: eh: na tu kwetu tunacheza ?bamama yake/
F: eeh/
K: ile nakuambia: iko ma mille neuf cent: trente-six: trente-sept: trente-huit: jusque trent-neuf/ à trente-neuf/
F: trente-neuf/
K: ah/
F: eeh/
K: bon/ una...
3. F: Was it only boys (who performed) or also girls?
K: There were no girls at that time.
F: No.
K: No girls yet, no (Girl) Guides, often they just did the singing.
F: Mm.
K: The did not perform. We ourselves dressed up as women and played (the part) of this...
F: Yes.
K: ... woman.
F: Yes.
K: Yes, we ourselves would take the female parts.
F: I see.
K: What I am telling you about, that was during the years of 1937, ’38, until ’39. Until ’38.
F: ’39.
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: Fine. You...
4. F: [interrupts]...una: sa: kuwa na mufano?
K: eeh: ts: eeh [hesitates, searches]...
F: ingine/ uli: uli: muliisha kuona: mapièces: ku ma citées: ao?
K: tulikuwa: eeh: tulikuwa tuko tunaona: mbele: ni ku Saint Boniface: balikuwa beko banafanya: tu ile wakati tunaimba kabisa: maneno Père Lamoral eh?
F: aha/
K: alipendaka kuimba sana/
F: c’est ça/
K: yee: kazi yake ni kuimba tu/ lakini alipenda alikuwa na théatre kiloko: alikuwa analeta mapièces ya Français:
F: ya Français/
K: tunacheza/
F: eeh/
K: bakubwa yetu banacheza ba:
Ka: oui/
K: eh?
F: mu Français/
K: shee pale tulifika: shee nawaza: njo tulianza karibu kiSwahili ku scout/
F: mm/
K: njo tulianza kazi: ma: sketch/
F: ndiyo/
K: ya kiSwahili/
F: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
4. F: [interrupts] Do you have an example?
K: Well, let’s see [hesitates, searches]...
F: Other (than the one you gave earlier). You had already seen pieces (performed) in the
townships, or not?
K: We had, yes. First we saw the ones they used to do at Saint Boniface’s. At that time we did a lot of singing because of Father Lamoral, right?4
F: I see.
K: He really liked singing.
F: That’s it.
K: All he did was singing but he also liked to run a little theater where he put on plays in French.
F: In French.
K: We performed.
F: Yes.
K: (That is to say) those who were older than we performed...
Ka: Yes.
K: Right?
F: In French.
K: When it was our turn, I think it was us who began with Swahili at the Boy Scouts.
F: Mm.
K: That was when we started working with sketches.
F: Yes.
K: In Swahili.
F: Yes. Yes.
5. K: bon: tunafika mu: ma mille neuf cent: eeeh: quarante: wakati tulikuwa waroutiers: eh? Tunaanza plus: kuangaria histoire/ mais en tout cas tuko tunaandika kabisa kabisa/ tuko tunafanya mapoints/
F: eeh/
K: eh?
F: oui oui/
K: bon/ sasa: tutafanya hivi: sasa tutafanya hivi: haikuwa asema tutaandika tunabakia na souvenir hapana/
F: eeh/
K: tuko tunaandika tu ni: aide mémoire/
F: c’est ça/
K: eh? tunafanya aide mémoire: alors tunaanza kufanya presque masketch
F: mm/
K: murefu/
F: mm/
K: eh? tulikuya: kwa mufano: ma ....?....kale mule kizungu: ni baba moya: eeh: alipenda makuta wakati ya wazungu: ana: banamuambia ku mwisho mutoto yake dawa anakunywa na anakufa: mais clair tuliish: sasa bale: munona mimbo siko yote ndani/ tulikata: pièces yetu...
5. Alright. We now get to the 1940s. At that time we were Rovers5, right? We began to pay more attention to the story. At any rate we wrote a lot and made outlines (lit. points).
F: I see.
K: Right?
F: Yes, yes.
K: Alright. This was how we did it (but) that is not to say we wrote so that we would have a souvenir.
F: I see.
K: We wrote (something down) a summary.
F: That’s it.
K: Right? We made a summary and then we almost began to write down sketches...
F: Mm.
K: ... full length.
F: Mm.
K: Right? To give you an example, we (had one that played) in town about a father who loved money – that was in colonial times – when finally he was told that his child had died from a medicine he drank. But it was clear...?... You see, there were always songs which we inserted in our plays...6
6. F: muliimba vilevile ku ile michezo?
K: ndiyo/ siku yote/
F: siku yote/
K: siku yote tu: ku: muchezo yote paka na: na mwimbo ndani/
F: kuimba na bitali: na?
K: ah ah: bule/
F: paka bule?
K: bule/ tunapenda/
F: mm/
K: sasa kunakuya: [addressing Kalundi] mwenzako moya Matenge Bunka/
Ka: Bunka oui/ Timothé/
K: eh?
F: eh?
Ka: ndiyo/ kiisha ku Saint...
K: aliisha ku Saint Boniface/
Ka: aliisha/
K: na yake: musicien mukubwa sana/
Ka: ndiyo/
K: anakwenda boyscout sasa utufundishe guitare/
F: ahah/
K: mm/ anaitufundisha guitare: harmonica:
F: eeh/
K: eeeh: ff: na: na: tunaanza kupiga ma: tambours:
F: na tambour/
K: bon/ na kulikuya fanfare/ ku: Saint Boniface/ bangine banapika: ma ...?.... [essoumat]: yote/
F: eeh/
6. F: So you also sang in these plays?
K: Yes, always.
F: Always.
K: Always, songs were part of every play.
F: Singing to a guitar and (other instruments)?
K: No, just like that.
F: Just like that?
K: Like that, we loved it.
F: Mm.
K: Now, [addressing Kalundi] there was some one of your age, a certain Matenge Bunka.
Ka: Bunka, yes. Timothé.
K: Right?
F: Yes?
Ka: Yes, then at Saint...
K: He finished at Saint Boniface.
Ka: He did.
K: The thing about him, he was a really great musician.
Ka: That’s right.
K: When he joined the Boy Scouts (we said) your should teach us the guitar.
F: I see.
K: Mm. He taught us the guitar (and) the harmonica.
F: I see.
K: Yes, and then we started playing the drums.
F: And the drums.
K: Fine. And there was a fanfare at Saint Boniface’s, others played the ...?... all this.
F: I see.
7. K: nilikala na nani? na Michele: Make...[searches]?
Ka: Michel Jita/
K: hapana/
Ka: Michel ?Gree/
K: ule wa mu...
Ka: Michel Lukonga/
K: Lukonga/ eeh? Michel Lukonga alikuwa musicien munene sana/
F: eeh/
K: bon: yee anatufundisha: nani/ sasa tunaanza na maespèces ya madyas/
F: ahah/
K: eh/
F: dyas gani?
K: tulikuwa tu: tunapima surtout mamimbo yetu ya: ya ku mugini: tunarhytmer: humu mu...
F: ku rumba ao?
K: ku rumba: tunapika marumba: cucaracha:
F: eeh/
K: mamimbo ile ya zamani: mm: Ali Baba: eh?
F: ah oui/
K: oui/ tunapiga ile: tuaendelea tunafanya: VeJeKat/ Voix de la Jeunesse Katangaise/
F: Ve: je: Kat?
K: VeJeKat/
F: oui/
K: bon/ chez VeJeKat ni: Kitenge Gabriel/ eh? Kitenge Gabriel: njo alikuwa: mukubwa ya ile: muchezo: shee bote tuna: fwata/
F: eeh/
K: bon/ pale tuna: ile wakati....
F: ...?... ilikuwa tu: ilikuwa tu kati ya: ya Saint Boniface na ...?...?
K: ... bon jeunesse yetu: eeh/ ile wakati tunaanza kutoka ku masomo: bengine banaisha kuya mu makazi: bengine beko ku masomo: tuko shee bote/
F: eh/
7. K: Who (else) was I with? With Michel, Make...[searches]?
Ka: Michel Jita.
K: No.
Ka: Michel ?Gree.
K: The one at...
Ka: Michel Lukonga.
K: Lukonga, right? Michel Lukonga was a very big musician.
F: Yes.
K: Alright, he taught us -- what do you call it? Then we started with some kind of jazz.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: What kind of jazz?7
K: Mainly we were trying to put rhythm into our songs from the village, here in...
F: As rumbas, or?
K: As rumbas, we played rumbas, cucaracha.
F: I see.
K: Those old songs, mm. (For instance) Ali Baba, right?
F: Ah yes.
K: Yes, that’s what we played and then we went and started VeJeKat. Voix de la Jeunesse Katangaise.
F: VeJeKat?
K: VeJeKat.
F: Yes.
K: Alright, with VeJeKat its was Kitenge Gabriel. Right? Kitenge was the leader of that orchestra, all of us followed (him).
F: I see.
K: Fine. Then, at that time, we...
F: ...?.. was that at Saint Bonifaces and ...?...?
K: ... right, it was us youngsters, yes. At that time we began to leave school, some were already working, others were still in school, all of us were together.
F: I see.
8. K: tunaisha kufanya VeJeKat: miye: mi sikuwa musicien mukuba: miye siyue kuimba: sina musicien:
F: mm/
K: mais: nayua kudiriger/
F: oui/
K: bon/ njo mi hii wakati moya minakumbuka minasema non: inafaa tu: fanye kintu ingine/ njo minafanya / Jecoké/
F: Jeux Coquets oui/ ahah/ Jeux Coquets/
K: Jeunes Comiques de Kenia/ Kenia ni...
F: ... commune/
K: commune yetu eh/ bo: kazi yabo alikuwaka balifanya nini? banaimba: tuko tunaimiter/ eeeh: tulionaka mu cinéma: aaah: kuimba mamingi: tunaona: tunasikia ku maradio/
F: mm/
K: mamimbo ya mazezurum:
F: aah/
K: na tunaimba: mamimbo ya kwetu:
F: radio/ surtout/
K: ku radio/
F: mu ku radio/
K: nalikuwa na: kiyana moya: alikuwa [with emphasis] nguvu: sana/ atasikia ku radio/ deux fois: trois fois: psht: anabeba/
F: oui/
K: eh/ bon/ pale tunafanya bale: mi: ku Cercle Saint Benoît: naanza kufanya masketch: na mthéâtres à même temps/
F: ah/
K: unayua ile mathéâtres écrits ya Français: ...?... hakukuya ya kisSwahili: ya kiSwahili tunaendelea paka: ku...
F: mpembeni/
K: ile ya kuandika kiloko/ hapana kuandika phrase par phrase/
8. K: So we started VeJeKat but I’m not much a musician, I can’t sing. I’m not a musician.
F: Mm.
K: But what I know is directing.
F: Yes.
K: Alright. So I, one day I thought (about this and) told myself, no we must do something else. That is when I started JeCoKe.
F: Jeux Coquets, yes. Yes, Jeux Coquets.8
K: Jeunes Comiques de Kenia. Kenia it...
F: ... a township (in Lubumbashi).
K: Our township, yes. So, what was it they did? The sang and we did imitations of what we used to see at the cinema. We watched and did many of the songs (and) we listened to the radio.
F: Mm.
K: The songs of zezurum.9
F: I see.
K: And we sang the songs from back home.
F: Above all, from the radio.
K: From the radio.
F: On the radio.
K: I was with one youngster, he was [with emphasis] really strong. He would hear (a song) on the radio two or three times and, like that, he got it (lit. carried it away).
F: Yes,
K: Yes. Find. While we were doing that I began at the same time to do sketches and theater at the Cercle Saint Benoît.10
F: I see.
K: You know, these plays in French...?... it wasn’t in Swahili. With (plays in) Swahili we went on just...
F: ...on the side.
K: For those we made short notes, we did not write them down sentence by sentence.
9. F: mm/ lakini: Mufwankolo alisema que: kama: kama ni yee: kama mweye: bote pamoya: mulianza tena kucheza mu mabar/ kiloko kiloko/
K: ndiyo/ nabo/
F: bo/
K: tuko tunabeba na JeCoke: na ma: mm: ingine: tulikuwa tuko tunakwenda mu mabars/
F: mm/
K: tunacheza: tunafunga bar: tunalipishwa/
F: aah/
K: tunalipishwa: bantu banalipa ndani: bana: bantu banaingia: tunaimba: tunafanya sketch/
F: eyo/
K: tunachekesha bantu/ d’ailleurs huyu [points to a person in a picture of JeCoKe] alikuwa spécialiste ya masketch/
F: ah oui/
K: Mungogo Joseph/ [to Kalundi] tu l’a connu?
Ka: eh/
F: kiisha yake: tukamate ma: ma:
K: majina ya bale/ bon: bana: kama kwangu: na...?... nakuonyesha ma photo mingi/
F: eyo/
K: eheh/
F: eyo/
K: bon/ miye: ile wakati: nafanya haba: sasa naanza tena kupenda: kufanya: danses folkloriques/
9. F: Mm. But Mufwankolo said that he, or rather all of you together began to perform in bars, little by little.
K: Yes, they (did).
F: They.
K: We carried on with JeCoKe and, mm, sometimes we used to go into bars.
F: Mm.
K: We played, closed the bar, and were paid.
F: I see.
K: We got paid. People paid admission when they came in, we sang and did sketches.
F: I see.
K: We made people laugh. By the way, this one [point to a person in a picture of JeCoKe] was a specialist for sketches.
F: Ah, yes.
K: Mungogo Joseph. [To Kalundi] Did you know him?
Ka: Yes.
F: We’ll take down the names (of the others) later.
K: Their names. Fine. If we were at my place I could show you many photos.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: Fine. While I was doing this I developed a liking for folkloric dances.
10. F: mm/ mais: turudie kiloko ku ile masketch mulicheza ku: ku mabars/
K: ndiyo/
F: ilikuwa sketch ya namna gani?
K: namna moya sasa vile nalikuambia mbele/
F: ...?... [overlapping]
K: tulikuwa tuko tunakwenda: maisha ya kila siku/ tulikuwa: tuko tunaenda ku: cabaret/
F: eheh/
K: eh? tunakwenda mu cabaret: tuna vile bantu beko nafanya: beko nawayawaya: beko na: eh? banamuke beko nachokoza banaume: banaume banachokoza: tunafanya sketch/
F: eheh/ eheh/
K: tunakwenda ku bus/ tunaona bantu vile beko anafuya [??fujo] bus: beko anafanya matata: tunafanya sketch/
F: c’est ça/
K: bon/ tunakwenda ku: [hesitates]...
Ka: ku gare/
K: ku gare/ tunaona bantu namna gani wee unapigania:
F: eh/
K: eh: ku: tuna: paka vile/
F: eh/
K: surtout: nani: nani: tulipenda ile tu muzuri kabisa enquête tribunal/
F: ah oui/ enqête tribunal/
K: eeh/ kama tunakwenda ku tribunal bushiko: parce que unayua tribunal de nuit:
F: eeh/
K: tunakwenda bushiko ku tribunal: tunaona bantu vile beko anasamba: tunapata: nani: sujet/
F: sujet/ matériel/
K: oui/ tunapata sujet: tunakwenda kudeévelopper: mais: ah: pasipo kuandika eh? tuko tuna: bon/ dis: wee utacheza hivi eh? ah: wee uta: wee utakuwa mwanamuke eh? wee utakuwa mwanaume: wee utakuwa: paka vile/
10. F: Mm. But let’s get back a little to those sketches you performed in bars.
K: Yes.
F: What sort of sketches were they?
K: The same kind I told you about earlier.
F: ...?... [overlapping]
K: We went to drinking places (to observe) every-day life.
F: I see.
K: Right? We went to drinking places (to see) how people behaved, how they were hanging out, the women teasing the men, the men teasing (the women), and then we made a sketch (about it).
F: That’s it.
K: Fine. We went to [hesitates]...
Ka: ... the railway station.
K: To the station. We watched people and saw how you would jostle with others.
F: Yes.
K: Yes. (Things) like that.
F: Yes.
K: What we really liked was court proceedings.
F: Ah yes. Court proceedings.
K: Yes. When we went to night court – because you know about night court.
F: Yes.
K: We went to night court, we saw how people argued, and we had a theme.
F: A theme. Material (for a sketch).
K: Yes. We got a theme and went on developing it, but without writing it down, right? We had – alright [demonstrates] You, that is how you are going to play it, right? You’ll be a woman, right? Your will be a man, and you..., and so on.
11. F: na mulikuwa pake mwee: ao: ile wakati ilikuwa mankundi mingi ya kucheza?
K: wakati ya mu mille neuf cent quarante: eeeh: cinquante: à partir ya cinquante: na ku rika shee banaanza kucheza/
F: mm/
K: na ku liga shee banaanza kucheza: baba Matteo/
F: Matteo?
K: oui/ bakiyana banamuita baba Matteo: ...?...
F: eh/
K: ... mu troupe yake/
F: eeh/
K: nayee alikuwa anacheza: paka michezo ya: ya: ku: improviser/
F: mm/
K: eh? ya ku: ku: améliorer: pale uko nacheza: uko unaaméliorer: uko unacheza: uko unaaméliorer/
F: oui/
11. F: And was it only you at that time or were there many groups who performed?
K: K: In the 1940s, well, ‘50s, starting in the fifties, among our age mates we were the ones who started performing.
F: Mm.
K: And among our age mates who started performing there was Baba Matteo.
F: Matteo?
K: Yes, the youngsters called him Baba Matteo...?...
F: I see.
K: ...(those) who belonged to his troupe.
F: I see.
K: He also performed only improvised plays.
F: Mm.
K: Right? (The way it went was) when you performed you would improve (the play), again and again.
F: Yes.
12. K: sasa nani? mmm: tena: ile wakati: tunaanza spectacle populaire mille neuf cent cinquante sept/
F: cinquante sept/
K: mm/ mbele vya: mbele ya mi kuanza nani: maneno unasema wee ni tatu unapenda: na minafaya madanses folkloriques/
F: ao madanses...
K: bon/ mbele mille neuf cent: eeh: mille neuf cent cinquante: ku Cercle Saint Benoît: tulikuwa kule: bananicharger me niko nafanyaka madanses folkloriques/
F: mm/
K: mu macités/ mu masiku ya fête: eh? dimanche: tunaocheza leo: ba ka: ba kabila moya: inacheza/ mu commune Albert: kabila moya inacheza mu commune Kenia: commune moya inacheza paka: minazunguluka/
F: mm/
K: kiisha: njo inakuya kupata idée ya kusema tiens: pourquoi me siwezi kufanya: nani: ba badanseur banafanya défilé ya dance: espèce ya ballet:
F: mm/
K: bon/ tunafanya ile/
12. K: Now, who else? Let’s see, then, at that time, we began with the spectacle populaire of 1957.
F: ’57.
K: Mm. Before that I myself – because you like to say that there were the three of us11 -- had started to organize folkloric dances.
F: Or dances...
K: Alright. Before that, in, let’s see, 1950, at the Cercle Saint Benoit, I was put in charge of organizing folkloric dances.
F: Mm.
K: In the townships. On holidays, on Sundays, we would perform the dances of one ethnic group one day in Albert township, those of another in Kenia township, and so on, I would make the rounds.
F: Mm.
K: Then I had an idea: Why should I not be able to make the dancers move in a parade, a sort of ballet?
F: Mm.
K: Fine. We did that.
13. F: na bapères na bazungu balikuwa ku...?....ile?
K: ile wakati: hapana/
F: ku...
K: ni shee benyewe....
F: ...kupata mainstruments?
K: hapana/
F: hapana/
K: shee benyewe tu/
F: paka mwee benyewe/
K: shee benyewe tu/ ku bapères: balikuwa banafanyisha mathéâtres ya Français:
F: eeh/
K: na ma: ballets: kwa père na: Ansgaire: na ma: mmm: chant surtout/ chorale/
F: mm/
K: chorale yetu inakuwa de cuivre:
F: oui oui/
K: eh? ilikuwa ni chorale mukubwa sana sana sana eeh/
F: beko na disques/
K: madisque haina mi: no: ile wakati madisques bataanza kufanya/
F: no no no/ disques ya petits chanteurs:
Ka: du cuivre/
F: du cuivre/
K: ya: ya Kiwele/
F: oui/
K: ça est fait tout à fait après eh?
F: oui oui/
K: oui wakati: ku mukongo: parce que Lamoral...
Ka: ...?...
K: Lamoral yee alianza mbele/
Ka: ....?...
K: eh/ tutakuwa tu tunaimba sawa mimbo ya Mungo:
F: mm/
Ka: ...?... cathédrale/
K: mm: unaimba....
Ka: cathédrale:
K: unakwenda ku: ku Saint Boniface eeh/
13. F: And were the missionaries and (other) Europeans involved in that?
K: At that time, no/
F: In...
K: It was we ourselves.
F: ...getting instruments.
K: No.
F: No.
K: It we ourselves only.
F: You yourselves only.
K: Just we ourselves. At the missionaries’ place they had French theater performed.
F: I see.
K: (And) there was our choir, (the one with) copper (in its name).
F: Yes, yes.
K: Right? It was a really great choir, yes.
F: They had made records.
K: Records, no, at that time they were yet to make records.
F: No, no, no. (I mean) the record made by the Petits Chanteurs...
K: ... du Cuivre.
F: Du Cuivre.
K: (The one directed by) Kiwele.
F: Yes.
K: That one was started much later, right?
F: Yes, yes.
K: Yes, it was at a later time because Lamoral...
Ka: ...?...
K: Lamoral began earlier.12
Ka: ...?...
K: Yes, we would sing only hymns.
F: Mm.
Ka: ...?... (at the) cathedral.
K: Mm. You would sing...
Ka: ...(at the) cathedral.
K: (When) you went to Saint Boniface’s, yes
14. bon/ ile wakati ma: mambo ya: ma: nani: madanses: nafanzia madanses: mu théâtre sasa: mu ndani ya théâtre: nafanyisha: ma: maspéciales défilés de danse tu: tuseme: ma danses ya kabila fulani: anacheza inapita trois minutes: deux minutes: eh minute ...?.../ banakuambia kubafundisha: inafaa kucheza iko naangaria bantu: hapana kucheza: mu ...?...
F: ilikuwa ku michezo authentiques ya zamani?
K: authentique [with emphasis] kabisa/
F: mm/ ao ku...
K: kutengenesha?
F: ku ta: nani: kutengenesha...
K: hapana/ ma danses...
F: ...?... na sasa: non?
K: hapana/ madanses ...?...
F: ...?...
K: tuliacha: bo benyewe beko nacheza: non/
F: eeh/
K: njo kintu: wa: geni mingi habayue eh? beko nawazia: kwa mufano: pale minacheza: minaenda asema eh oooh: twenda twenda [tuwe na?] mu kudya mukate eh? banasema tiens: banaweka na banapenda mukate asema ni ya sasa: non/ parce que danse: hata pale zamani: ilikuwa eko nakwenda ni: situation journalière/
F: c’est ça/
K: eh? badanseurs banakuya kucheza wanakutana muti munene/
F: mm/
K: unaota sasa/ anataimba ule muti/
F: mm/ mm/
K: bon: banakutana: eeh: nani? samaki ilikufa mingi ku mukini fulani/
F: mm/
K: bataimba ile: nani: ya/ njo ile bataingisha ...?... anataya kintu banaimba mimbo/ banataya mu Français: c’est: ni normal/
F: ni normal/ ndiyo/
K: ni normal/ ni: parce que ni époche par époche beko banakwenda naye/
F: ndiyo/
K: eh? c’est ainsi kwa hii wakati tulikuwa nayo ku bulaya na bambudje: baliimbaka Rois Baudouin: tunakuya kulamukia Roy Baudouin: tuko: maneno gani? tunakulya nayee mukate: c’est un...
F: mm/
K: wee: haikuye asema: parce que banamoderniser/ eh eh/
F: mm/
K: [with emphasis] ni vile/
F: ni vile ilikuwa...
K: oui/ kila mwaka: mbudje: eh: libunga: nani: bote banaendelesha/
F: mm/
K: eh/ eeh: miye sikucréer danse hata moya/ ni madanses ya tangu zamani/ balikuwa beko nacheza...
14. Alright. At that time, as far as the dance performances I organized are concerned, that now took place inside the theater. What I did was to arrange special performances of certain ethnic groups. They danced for three minutes, two minutes, even ...?... minutes. You were told that in order to educate people you must perform something that concerned them, not (just) put on (anything).
F: This was done with dances that were authentically traditional?
K: [with emphasis] Absolutely authentic.
F: Mm. Or with...
K: ... adaptations?
F: By – how shall I say – adapting them...
K: No, the dances...
F: ...?... to contemporary dances, or not?
K: No, the dances ...?...
F: ...?...
K: No, we left (the performers alone), they themselves did the dancing.
F: I see.
K: This is something many foreigners don’t know, right? They think, for instance, when I perform I do this to make a living, right?13 They say because they want to make a living that it is modern. No. Even in the old days, dances followed everyday situations.
F: That’s it.
K: You understand. It could happen, for instance, in a certain villages that many fish died.
F: Mm.
K: So the would sing about this. That was would they would introduce and mention in the songs they performed. As they say it in French, that’s normal.
F: It’s normal, yes.
K: It’s normal. It was because they always went with the times.
F: Yes.
K: Right? So, when we traveled with Bambudje dancers in Europe, they sang for King Baudouin. We came to greet King Baudouin. Why? Because we "ate bread with him?" That’s a...
F: Mm.
K: All this was not about going modern. No, no.
F: Mm.
K: [with emphasis] That’s how it was (it was what had to be done at that moment).
F: That’s how it was...
K: Yes. Every year, the Bambudje, the Libunga, all of the (dance societies) moved forward.14
F: Mm.
K: Yes. I did not create a single dance. It was dances that (were performed) in the past.
They would dance...
15. F: niko na ulizo ingine/
K: mm/
F: tunajua kama: mu les années vingt environ: michezo ya: mbali mbali ilifika/ majina yake beni: si njo vile?
K: beni/
Ka: ngoma/
F: beni ngoma/
K: bena ngoma/
F: bena: bena ngoma?
K: eeh/
F: kalela/
K: kalela beko banasema eh/ kalena kalena/
F: kalela?
K: eheh/
F: si ilikuwa: eh: muchezo? sawa vile: na kucheza madanses [overlapping]
Ka: ...?...
F: danser: mais kucheza aussi: des sketch?
K: oui oui/ kalela...
F: banaimiter saswa: administration ya Bula Matari/
K: eeh/
F: balikuwa na: kuvwala na....
K: mm/
F: eh? ni hii uliona?
K: eeh/
Ka: mimbo/
K: kanena...?... alikuwa hapana mille neuf cent vingt/ parce que na kabolonso alikuwa: mi naisha kuwa muntu mukubwa/
Ka: ...?...
F: kalela?
K: eeh/
F: ku be...
K: ku ?beka: beni: ya baNyanza batu/
Ka: kabisa/
F: oui oui/ mais mu kalela aussi: ilitoka za:eh: Rhodésie eh? kalela/
K: ...?... attention: alikuwa hii: nani: hii tukacheze: tuchezeka....
Ka: ...?....
K: hapana: ngwaya: ngwaya: ni ya humu: ngwaya ni ya mu: Zaire yote mu baBemba/ enfin: inawezikana inatoka ku Zambie/
F: ngwaya?
K: ngwaya/
Ka: ngwaya/
K: ngwaya ni muchezo ya bushiko/
F: eeh.
K: tunacheza: babibi huku: babwana huku:
F: eh/
K: tuko tuna...
Ka: changer
K: kuchanger/
F: ah oui/ oui oui/
K: eeh/
F: oui/
K: mais kanena kabolonso ilikuyaka ni: tunaisha kuya bantu bakubwa/ hata: haina ya zamani kabisa/
15. F: I have another question.
K: Mm.
F: We know that in the twenties, around that time, dances arrived here from different places. They were called "Beni", right?
K: Beni.
Ka: Ngoma.
F: Beni Ngoma.
K: Bena Ngoma.
F: Is it Bena, Bena Ngoma?
K: Yes.
F: (And) Kalela.
K: Kalela they said, yes. Kalena, Kalena.
F: Kalela?
K: Yes.
F: Were this not dances where they would...[overlapping]
Ka. ...?...
F: ... dance but also perform sketches?
K: Yes, yes. Kalela...
F: Imitate the government administration.
K: Yes.
F: They dressed up as...
K: Mm.
F: Right? Was that what you saw?
K: Yes.
Ka: Songs.
K: But Kanena ...?... that was not in 1920. Because I was already a grown-up when "Kaboloza" happened.
Ka: ...?...
F: (You mean) Kalela?
K: Yes.
F: With the Be...
K: ...?...Beni (was something that came from) the people of Nyasaland.
Ka: Exactly.
F: Yes, yes. But Kalela also, it came from Rhodesia, right? Kalela.15
K: ...?... Now be careful, there was this dance we performed...
Ka: ...?...
K: No, Ngwaya. Nngwaya. Ngwaya was local. Ngwaya was (performed) all over Zaire, among the Bemba. Still, it is possible that it originated in Zambia.
F: Ngwaya?
K: Ngwaya.
Ka: Ngwaya.
K: Ngwaya is a dance (performed) at night.
F: I see.
K: They dance, women on one side, men on the other.
F: Yes.
K: We ...
Ka: ... change.
K: One changes (sides).
F: Ah yes. Yes, yes.
K: Right.
F: Yes.
K: But Kanena Kabolonso, that was when we were already adults, not too long ago.
16. F: donc kadiri ile muchezo: zamani:
K: mm/
F: banacheza tena masketch aussi/ non?
K: hapana sawa/
F: hapana?
K: hapana sawa/
F: ilikuwa tu:
K: mu nani: mu danse/ bataweza kucheza/
F: eeh/
K: kucheka muntu: mu danse/
F: c’est ça/
K: inakuwa sawasawa ballet tuseme/
F: eeh/
K: haina sketch kabisa:
F: eh/
K: itakuwa sawasawa ballet/ inawezikana muntu anakuya na chapeau: sawa mi niko mpolushi: mi niko mpolushi: anacheza/
F: oui oui/
K: eh? ana: anacheka policier/
F: oui/
K: ilikuwa plus ballet que...
F: plus?
K: eh?
F: ...?...
Ka: hapana: polisi/
F: [overlapping] polisi polisi: oui c’est ça/
K: ilikuwa plus ballet que: sketch/
F: oui oui/
K: mais shee tulikuwa banaanza masketch: parce que tulionaka ma théâtres/
16. F: So, in those days, as part of the dances...
K: Mm.
F: They also performed sketches, or not?
K: That’s no how it was.
F: No?
K: Not like that.
F: It was just....
K: In a dance it could happen that they performed.
F: Yes.
K: To make fun of a person, as part of the dance.
F: That’s it.
K: Let’s say it was like ballet.
F: Yes.
K: No sketches really.
F: I see.
K: It would be like ballet. It could happen that someone put on a hat acting like a policeman.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Right, as a parody of a policeman.
F: Yes.
K: It was more like ballet than...
F: More?
K: What do you mean?
F: ...?...
K: No, the police.
F: [overlapping] Police, police. Yes, that’s it.
K: It was more a ballet than a sketch.
F: Yes, yes.
K: But we began (doing) sketches because we used to observe theater performances.
17. F: [claps] bon/ ile: ile wakati/ donc: aussi loin que possible: dans votre mémoire eh?
K: mm/
F: unakumbuka/ lugha/ banatumia mu ile: mu ile nani: michezo/ ilikuwa nini?
K: bon/ lugha: nitakujibu: ya: kweli kweli/
F: eh/
K: miye: ni: mukubwa Albert: anakuyaka kuniambia asema: kiSwahili ilitoka mbali/ parce que baba yangu/
F: mm/
K: ile wakati anatoka kwetu ku mugini: mille neuf cent vingt huit:
F: ba: kwenu ni wapi?
K: ku Manono/
F: Manono?
K: eeh/ ku ?Njambi/
F: eeh/
K: bon/ anatoka mille neuf cent vingt huit/ kuya huku: alikuwa eko anasema kiSwahili/
F: eeh/
K: tena anasema kiSwahili bora:
F: kule kwa: kule ku nord/
K: kule eeh/
Ka: kule na ...?...
K: kule ku: nord: ku Tanganika: eh: ku:
Ka: Tanganika...?...
K: eh/ bo balikuwaka banasema kiSwahili muzuri sana/
F: mm/
K: banakuya humu: baba: banzake wote: banduku yake: parce que banduku yake banamuke walifika mbele yake eh?
F: eeh/
K: balifika mille neuf cent vingt cinq:
F: eeh/
K: mille neuf cent vingt quatre: bale banazala Oscar Kabila: ule ku Zambie/ bale alikutana kuweka anasema kiSwahili/ mais: kiSwahili hii yetu tuna sema kiSwahili wanasema kisSwahili ya Katanga/
F: mm/
K: habakuwe kusema beko nasema kiSwahili bora/ bale alitoka na kiSwahili bora: anafika huku balimucheka/
F: mm/
K: yee alinielezea baba/
F: eh/
K: banamucheka: njo anachanger anaanza kusema kiSwahili:
F: eh/
K: donc: minawaza mu mawazo yetu miye: sikukutana baba anasema kinywa ingine/ mais: kila kabila:
F: mm/
K: baBemba balikuwaka nasema: kiBemba/
F: kiBemba/
K: ba: baTabwa moya/ baTabwa kiSwahili/
Ka: baTabwa kiSwahili/
K: bo paka kiSwahili: shee Baluba: tulipenda kiSwahili: en tous cas tunasema kiLuba: c’est ainsi que shee ba: batototo ya Baluba mingi hatuyue kiLuba/
F: hamuye kiLuba/
K: hatuye kiLuba ki...?...
F: sasa ni baKasai?
K: baKasai moitié moitié/
F: eeh/
K: moitié moitié/ kule bale baKasai: tulikomea nabo kabisa: habakuyue tshiKasai/
F: c’est ça/
K: mais bale bengine balianza kuwa ku mukongo: balifundisha batoto yabo:
F: mm/
K: kiKasai/
F: mm/
K: eh/ baLuba bale balibakia ku: buLuba: balisemesha batoto yabo: kiLuba/ eh/ donc shee tulikutana kiSwahili/ mi nalikutana kiSwahili déjà ku village yetu/
F: ku village/
K: eh/
17. F: [claps] Fine. That was in those days, as long ago as you can remember, right?
K: Mm.
F: Do you remember what the language was they used in those dances? What was it?
K: Alright. About the language I answer you (and tell you) how it really was.
F: Yes.
K: Albert [Kalundi] who is older than I keeps telling me Swahili came from far away. (I don’t think so) because my father...
F: Mm.
K: When he left the village back home in 1928...
F: Where is your home country?
K: In Manono.
F: Manono?
K: Yes. (A place called) Nyambi.
F: I see.
K: Alright. He left in 1928. When he arrived here he spoke Swahili.
F: Yes.
K: Not only that, he spoke correct Swahili.
F: (The kind spoken) in the North.
K: Yes.
Ka: Over there in...?...
K: Over there in the North, along (Lake) Tanganika.
Ka: Tanganika...?...
K: Yes. Those people spoke a really fine Swahili.
F: Mm.
K: When they got here, my father (already had) all those relatives here. Because his female relatives had arrived before him, you understand?
F: Yes.
K: They came in 1925.
F: Yes.
K: You couldn’t say they spoke refined Swahili. People who had left speaking refined Swahili where made fun of when they came here.
F: Mm.
K: That’s what my father told me.
F: Yes.
K: They made fun of him, so he changed and began to speak (local) Swahili.
F: Yes.
K: So, when I think about it, I never heard father speak another language. But every ethnic group...
F: Mm.
K: The Bemba spoke kiBemba.
F: kiBemba.
K: Only the Tabwa, the Tabwa (spoke) Swahili.
Ka: The Tabwa (spoke) Swahili.
K: They only spoke Swahili. We, the Luba, liked Swahili. Though we spoke (some) kiLuba, (nowadays) we, the children of the Luba, many of us, don’t know kiLuba.
F: You don’t know kiLuba.
K: We don’t know kiLuba...?...
F: Now what about the people from Kasai?
K: With the people from Kasai it’s half-half.
F: I see.
K: Half-half. Those from Kasai with whom we grew up together don’t know tshiKasai.
F: That’s it.
K: But others who came later taught their children...
F: Mm.
K: ...kiKasai.16
F: Mm.
K: Yes. The Luba who stayed in Luba country made their children speak kiLuba. Yes. So, we were familiar with (lit. met) Swahili. In my case, I was exposed to Swahili already in our village.
F: In the village.
K: Yes.
18. F: na: sawa vile nilikuuliza: niliuliza juu ya machezo ya zamani/ banacheza: banasema: banas: banaimba: banasema/ mu Swahili?
K: banasema mu kila: kila bantu banasema kinywa wabo/
F:...?...
K: baBemba: banasema kinywa wabo: sheye ba: baLuba: balikuwa banacheza libunga/ eeeh [searches] paka ngwaya: ngwaya/ njo tulianza kuimba mu kiSwahili/
Ka: ...ngwaya/
K: ngwaya tulicheza mu kiSwahili parce que ngwaya: ilikuwa sawasawa danse moderne/
F: eeh/
K: eh? ilikuwa sawasawa...
F: si: si: sifahamu ile/
K: ooh: c’est le truc/
Ka: ...tulikuwa tunacheza njo ...?...inaanzia avec du kiBemba/
K: kiBemba: ngwaya: kiBemba: paka kiKasai hapana/
Ka: kiKasai hapana/ ...?....
K: ilikuwa kiBemba: ki: Swahili: kiNyanja kiloko/
Ka: kiloko kiloko/
K: eeh/
Ka: mélangé un peu de kiKabanga/
K: kiKabanga/ kiBe:
Ka:...?...
K: vile vintu ya ma:
18. So, when I questioned you about the danses of the past – when they performed, when they sang, was it in Swahili?
K: Everybody spoke their language.
F: ...?...
K: The Bemba spoke their language, we Luba, when Libunga17 was performed (it was kiLuba), only [searches] (with) Ngwaya we began to sing in Swahili.
Ka:...Ngwaya.
K: Right. It was like...
F: I am not familiar with (Ngwaya).
K: Oh, it was really in.
Ka: ...we used to dance it...?... it was first in kiBemba.
K: kiBemba. Ngwaya was kiBemba, never kiKasai.18
F: Not in kiKasai. ...?...
K: It was in kiBemba, Swahili, and a little kiNyanja.
Ka: Just a little.
K: Yes.
Ka: Mixed with a little kiKabanga.
K: kiKabanga, kiBe(mba).
Ka: ...?...
K: Those things of...
19. F: mais le ki: kiKabanga: ilikuwa nini?
K: kiKabanga ni langue populaire: ya le trois Rhodésies/
Ka: [overlapping]...?...
F: les trois Rhodésies/
K: mm/ njo ilikuwa langue ile ya kuwachanga wote/ sasa hivi huku: Lingala: Swahili:
F: oui oui/
K: kiKasai/
F: ile miminajua/ mais: mais: kama ilikuwa sawa: mu: mu linguistique eh? banataya hii langue Kitchenkaffir/ ou Fanagalo/ njo jina ingine/
K: mm/
F: mais est-ce que c’est Fanagalo ou non? est-ce que ilikuwa: ilikuwa lugha moya ya kabila ya ...?... ya: ya kabila ya Zulu?
K: hapana/ ile hatuwezi kuyua/ [chuckles] siwazi hata mukuba hatayua/
F: c’est ça/
K: ile: ile: shee tuli: sikiaka vile eh? parce que mi nalipendaka: parce que mi nalipendaka kufanya matournées/
F: mm/
K: yangu ya mathéâtres ku: Zambie: na ku Rhodésie/ eh?
F: ahah?
K: oui oui/
F: ...?...mwaka?
K: mu: soixante:
F: ah oui/ ah oui/
K: un peu après/ eheh/ ile wakati: ni kiBan: kiKabanga kinaanza kushuka/
F: mm/
K: parce que sasa ile kiKabanga inaisha kabisa eh? ku:
F: ah: ku Afrique du Sud banasemaka/
K: ndiyo/ mais ku Rhodésie:
F: non?
K: maRhodésies yote tu...?...c’est presque fini/
F: non: Bemba: kiBemba/
K: kiBemba: kiNyanja: na ki: kiZulu: eh ki:
F: kiNdebele quois/
K: kiNdebele/ Ndebele: c’est ça/ balituelezeaka shi asema: hii kinywa ni kinywa ya basoldats/ humu mu Zaire: ilikuwaka Lingala/
F: ki: kiKabanga ya basoldats?
K: ya basoldats kule ku nani/
F: si njo ba: ba nani: ba bantu ya kazi?
K: bantu ba kazi na basoldats/
F: aah/
Ka: bantu ya mines/
F: ya mines surtout/
K: sema ili: ilikuwa moya ya kuenea ku wantu yote waseme/ kabila yote ilisema/ iko sawasawa hivi: ku: hii maprovinces ingine ni ki: eh: Lingala/
F: oui/
K: bon/ soldats bote ba mu Zaire: balisema Lingala/ bote/
F: ndiyo/ hata zamani: balianza na Swahili eh?
K: ah: ba: ni shee tu/
Ka: basoldats ingine: bakuyua ni Swahili/
F: mu mille neuf cent huit....
Ka: basoldats ingine kiloko ni Swahili/
K: shee tulikutana: shee tulikutana:
F: mpaka: Li....
K: Lingala/ [to Kalundi]...?... ulikutana Lingala/
Ka: nilikutana Lingala/
K: mm/
F: na mu mille neuf cent dix: balikuwa: kutana na école militaire:
Ka: hapana/
F: ku école de policiers/
K: eh/ ah policier oui/
F: eh?
K: policier alisema kiSwahili/
F: po: policier: militaire ilikuwa....
K: ah ah: iliachana kabisa/
F: ile wakati/ ile wakati/
Ka: ah ile wakati mi si...
K: mu mille neuf cent dix?
F: mille neuf cent dix/ mbele ya campagne contre Kasongo Nyembo: ah? mille neuf cent: dix sept/
K: eheh/
F: dix sept/ balichanga tu: ba: bamilitaires et police/
K: ahaah/
Ka: ...?...kujulisha ...?...
F: oui oui oui/ alors: balisema: balikuwa kusema Swahili/ hata ku école: policier:
K: ah école mipolisi walikuwa kusema kiSwahili...?...
F: et camps de policiers/
K: ba Mpemba Prosper/
F: camps de policiers ilikuwa munenen munene/
K: bah oui/
F: balikuwa bantu kupita: bantu wa kazi ya Gécamines/
K: eh: tu wanabakilia camps: balikuwa pour quoi? ah shee tulikutana/ hata njo: shee: shee tunayua wa kati yetu eeh/ [laughs]
F: oui oui/...?...
19. F: But what was kiKabanga?
K: kiKabanga is [in French] the popular language of the three Rhodesias.19
Ka: [overlapping]...?...
K: Mm. That was the language that brought everyone together.20 As it is the case here (in Zaire) with Lingala and Swahili.
F: Yes, yes.
K: (And) kiKasai.
F: I know that’s how it was although in linguistics they use other names (for kiKabanga), Kitchenkaffir or Fanagalo.
K: Mm.
K: Is (kiKabanga) Fanagalo or not?
F: Was this (not) a language of Zulu origin?
K: No, this is something we could not know. [chuckles]I don’t think even the old man (Kalundi) would know that.
F: That’s it.
K: We just have it from hear-say because I always liked to travel around (lit. go on tours).
F: Mm.
K: With my theater performances, in Zambia and Rhodesia, right?
F: Is that it?
K: Yes, yes.
F: ...?... (what) year (was that)?
K: In (19)60.
F: Ah yes, ah yes.
K: (Or) a little later. Yes. At that time kiKabanga was beginning to lose importance.
F: Mm.
K: Because nowadays kiKabanga has disappeared completely, Right? In...
F: Well, in South Africa it is still spoken..
K: Yes, but in Rhodesia...
F: No (longer)?
K: Everywhere in the Rhodesias it has almost disappeared.
F: Right. (Now) it is Bemba, kiBemba.
K: kiBemba, kiNyanja, and kiZulu, what else, ki...
F: kiNdebele, for instance.
K: kiNdebele. Ndebele, that’s it. We were always told that this language was the language of the military. Here in Zaire it has been Lingala.
F: kiKabanga, a (language of ) the military?
K: (The language of) the military over there.
F: Was it not the language of the workers/
K: Of the workers and of the military.
F: I see.
Ka: Of the people (working) in the mines.
F: Mineworkers, above all.
K: Let’s say that this was the language that served everyone. Whatever the ethnic group, they spoke it. It was like Lingala in other provinces (of Zaire).
F: Yes.
K: Alright. All the soldiers in Zaire spoke Lingala, all of them.
F: Yes. Except in the old days they began with Swahili, right?
K: Ah, it’s only us (who speak Swahili).
Ka: Some soldiers know Swahili.
F: In 1908...
Ka: A few soldiers (know) Swahili.
K: What we found...21
F: ... was Li....
K: Lingala. [to Kalundi] ...?... you found Lingala (being spoken by the military).
Ka: I found Lingala.
K: Mm.
F: And by 1910 it was found at the military academy.
Ka: No.
F: At the police academy.
K: At the police (academy), yes.
F: Right.
K: The policeman spoke Swahili.22
F: So, the policeman (would speak Swahili) while the military...
K: Ah, (the two) were quite different.
F: At that time. At that time.
Ka: Well, about that time I don’t (know).
K: Around 1910?
F: Around 1910, before the campaign against Kasongo Nyembo, right. In 1917.
K: Yes.
F: In ’17 military and police were put together.
K: I see.
Ka: ...?... (you are) telling us (lit. making us know)...?...
F: Yes, yes, yes. So, Swahili was spoken at the police academy.
K: Yes, at school the policemen spoke Swahili....?...
F: And in the camps of the police.
K: People like Mpemba Prosper.23
F: The camps of the police24 were really big.
K: Of course.
F: The population was larger than that of the Gécamines workers (settlements).
K: Well, they were stationed in camps. Why was that? Ah, we knew what this was about and kept that knowledge to ourselves. [laughs]
F: Yes, yes.
20. K: oui/ tulifika hapa sasa/ ile wakati tuna: fanya spectacles populaires:
F: ah/
K: ni bazungu balikuwa kutoka bulaya/
F: mu cinquante: sasa ni mu cinquante six/
K: sept/
F: cinquante sept/
K: balikuwa mbele mu cinquante six: banacheza: Shangwe Yetu/
F: Shangwe Yetu/
K: eh/
F: oui/
K: Shangwe Yetu: mu: cinquante sept plutôt/ tunafanya spectacles populaires nabo pamoya:
F: mm/
K: na mi wa nkundi:
F: ...?... ni nani?
K: bazungu: monsieur eeh: Huisman/
F: Huisman?
K: Huisman: na monsieur: Landier/
F: Landier/
K: anaisha kufa sasa/
F: balikuwa bana:
K: jina yake ya kweli ni de Koninck: alafu ya muchezo ni Landier/
F: aah/
K: oui/
F: balikuwa ba: ba:
K: beko ni baacteurs: wa: wahommes de théâtre/
F: ba?
K: mm/ ba...
F: kutoka Belgique?
K: Belgique/
F: banafika tu hapa:
K: banafika na tuko tunakutana shee/
F: eeh/
K: banakutana shee banatuincorporer: banatusaidia: kufanya lumière: son: etcetera/
F: aah/
K: njo wakati minayua technique ya:
F: ya théâtre/
K: ya son/
20. K: Yes. Now we got to the time when we performed spectacles populaires, popular shows.
F: Yes.
K: (The ones who started them) were Whites who came from Europe.
F: In the fifties. Now we are in fifty-six.
K: Seven.
F: Fifty-seven.
K: They first came in fifty-six and performed (a show called) Shangwe Yetu.25
F: Shangwe Yetu.
K: Yes.
F: Right.
K: Or rather in fifty-seven, that was Shangwe Yetu. We worked together with them (the Europeans) on the spectacles populaires.
F: Mm.
K: I was part of a group.
F: ....?... who were (the Europeans)?
K: The Europeans, there was a M. Huisman.
F: Huisman?
K: Huisman and M. Landier.
F: Landier.
K: He is dead now.
F: They were...
K: ... his real name was de Koninck, but on the stage it was Landier.26
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: They were...
K: ...they were actors, theater people.
F:From where?
K: Mm, from...
F: From Belgium?
K: Belgium.
F: So they came here.
K: They came and we met with them.
F: I see.
K: They met us and made us part (of their work). They helped us with the lighting, the sound, and so forth.
F: I see.
K: That was when I got to know the technical side...
F: ... of theater.
K: Of sound.
21. ...?...tena njo banakamata baMufwankolo:
F: eeh/
K: tunakuingisha mule/
F: Mufwankolo ulikutana peke yake: ao alikuwa: yee na nkundi?
K: alikuwa na nkundi kiloko eh/ mais habakuya nguvu kabisa/
F: eeh/
K: shee njo tulibakamata: tuna: balamusha/ njo minakwenda na Mufwankolo: na ku bulaya/
F: ah oui/
K: eh/ mu: mu: mille neuf cent cinquante: neuf/
F: cinquante neuf/
K: eh/ cinqu...
F: mulifanya tournée/
K: tulifanya tournée ku bulaya/
F: ...?...
K: ya tournée?
F: namna gani?
K: ah tournée: eeh: cinquante huit: nalifanya tournée ingine: mais na Shangwe Yetu/ ile spectacle moya munene: ilikuwa madanses ya: Congo: Ruanda Urundi/
F: mm/
K: mu cinquante huit: ni spectacle yangu personnel:
F: mm/
K: ilikuya: sketch/
F: sketch/
K: ile: tulifanya na Mufwankolo pamoya/
F: ah/
K: ni chasseur moya: ana: eko anafundisha muzungu kwenda:
F: c’est ça/
K: kuchasser/
F: aliniambia vile/
K: alikuambia eh?
F: oui/
K: bon/ tulifanya naye...
F: ... nani? Le chasseur et le blanc/
K: le chasseur et le blanc/ tulifanya nayee pamoya/
F: ah?
K: yee alitosha idée: mi tulitengensha pamoya/
F: eeh/
K: eh/ tuna: rudia na Mufwankolo: tunafanya: eeh: medicin malgré lui/
F: ah oui/
K: ?kilolo kanambatila/
F: après Molière quoi?
K: après Molière: ba...?... avant Molière/ minasomaka ile buku ya avant Molière/
F: ahah/
K: eeh/ le: le faux medicin/
F: le faux medicin/
K: eeh/ nawaza na Molière nayee ni kule alitosha/
F: eeh/
21. ...?... (the people I told you about) also hired Mufwankolo and his troupe.
F: I see.
K: We saw to it that they became part of that production.
F: When you met Mufwankolo was he alone or did he have troupe.
K: He had a small troupe, yes. But they were not really impressive (lit. strong).
F: I see.
K: It was us who took them on and welcomed them. That was when I went with Mufwankolo to Europe.
F: Ah, yes.
K: Yes, in fifty...
F: You went on a tour.
K: We went on a tour in Europe.
F: ...?...
K: About the tour?
F: How did it go?
K: Well, the tour was in fifty-eight. Then I went on another tour, but this time with Shangwe Yetu, that big spectacle of dance from the Congo and Ruanda-Urundi.
F: Mm.
K: In fifty-eight, that was my own production.
F: Mm.
K: It was sketches.
F: Sketches.
K: There was one we did together with Mufwankolo.
F: I see.
K: It was about a hunter who taught a European to go ...
F: That’s it.
K: ... hunting.
F: He told me about that.
K: He told you about that?
F: Yes.
K: Fine, we did that together...
F: What was it like, the hunter and the European?
K: The hunter and the European. We performed together.
F: Yes?
K: He came up with the idea and the two us worked it out.
F: I see.
K: Yes. Then Mufwankolo and I came back and we did the medicin malgré lui.27
F: Ah, yes.
K: (We called it) kilolo kanambatila.
F: After Molière, right?
K: After Molière, (or rather) before Molière. I had read about it in this book that came out before Molière.
F: I see.
K: Yes, (that one was called) le faux medicin (The False Doctor).
F: The False Doctor/
K: Yes. I think that was were Molière got (the idea for his play).
F: I see.
22. K: na mi nalitosha kule: tunafanya ile: kilolo kanambatila/
F: mais: bon/ kwa: kwa ile sketch mbili: muli: mulikuwa na: na manuscript?
K: ile: ile ya mbili nilibakia na manuscript: mais siye ule inaisha kwenda/ [chuckles] nalitumia mingi/ sasa:
F: ilipotea
K: ilipotea/
F: ah oui oui/
K: ile nalibakia na manuscript: mais: toujours: pasipo parole eh?
F: c’est ça/
K: plan/
F: paka conducteur...
K: plan/ plan de travail oui/
F: oui oui/ plan de travail/ pasipo paroles/
K: pasipo paroles/ paroles mara moya moya:
22. K: That’s where I got it from and we did kilolo kanambatila.
F: But, alright. Did you have a script for those two sketches?
K: I used to have a script for those two but I don’t know where it went [chuckles]. I worked with so many. Now...
F: It is lost.
K: It is lost.
F: Ah yes, yes.
K: However, the scripts I kept were not written dialogue (lit. without words), you understand?
F: That’s it.
K: (Just) an outline.
F: Just a conducteur...28
K: An outline, a working plan.
F: Yes, yes. A working plan without written dialog.
K: Without dialog, except now and then.
23. Mufwankolo: ata: eh: ts: unona zamani hakuwe Mufwankolo/ zamani alikuya Kilolo/
F: njo ilikuwa nani? jina yake? Kilolo?
K: eh: Kilolo/
F: aah/
K: ça veut dire policier: mukubwa/
Ka: ...?...clairon/
K: clairon/ policier wa clairon: donc: brigadier: chef: etcetera: kilolo/
F: ni kilolo?
K: eeh/
Ka: oui oui/
K: njo ilikuwaka jina yaka zamani/
Ka: Kilolo c’est ça...
F: ...?... mu mwaka gani ali: alikamata jina ya Mufwankolo/
K: Mufwankolo ni après/ kabisa/
F: après/
K: minawaza après soixante/
F: aah: voilà/
K: eh/
F: balianza kuvaa: eh: mufwankolo?
K: [laughs] kufwa nkolo/ [laughs]
Ka: ...?...cravatte/
K: cravatte eh/ kulala na nkolo kule/
Ka: ...?.../
F: c’est: c’est:
Ka: kuweka cravatte/
23. (About) Mufwankolo. Well, what I want to say, in those days (his name) was not Mufwankolo. In those days he was (called) Kilolo.
F: What was the meaning of his name (when he was called) Kilolo?
K: Well, Kilolo.
F: Yes.
K: It means a policeman, an elder.29
Ka:...?... the bugle.
K: The bugle. The bugler in the police, (something) like a sergeant, a commander, etc., a Kilolo.
F: That is (the meaning of) Kilolo?
K: Yes.
K: That was his name in those days.
Ka: Kilolo, that’s it...
F: ...?... what was the year when he took the name Mufwankolo?
K: Mufwankolo was later, much later.
F: Later.
K: After sixty, I think.
F: Ah, so that’s it.
K: Yes.
F: (Was that when) people started to wear a "mufwankolo"?
K: [laughs] Die (with it around your) neck. [laughs]
Ka: ...?... you mean a necktie.
K: A necktie. Sleep with it around your neck.
F: That’s it.
Ka: (It just means) wearing a necktie.
24. K: bon: wakati: ile: tunaanza kufanya masketch mingi sasa/ nayee Mufwankolo anaanza cucréer masketch/
F: mm/
K: na: Kalwasha/ sijue kama balikuelezea mambo ya Kalwasha/
F: ah bado/ bado/
K: bon/ Kalwasha: tuseme toujours mu kiSwahili/ kiSwahili: iko différent: bo baTabwa: banasema kiSwahili muzuri:
F: mm/
K: baBemba banasema kiSwahili muzuri kidogo/
F: mm/
K: shee baLuba: tunasema muzuri: bakaTshokwe: banasema: mais accent:
F: accent yabo/
K: yabo [with emphasis] kabisa kabisa/
F: oui oui/ tena baSanga?
K: baSanga ça va encore eh?
Ka: ça va encore un peu/
K: baSanga ça va/
F: ile anachekeza sana: baSanga kama: banait: banataya mabus: mabus chachacha eh?
K: eeh/
F: banasema kyakyakya/
K: bakyakyakya/
Ka: [laughs]
K: ile ni baBemba/ ni ...?... [laughs] ile ni ba: mais ba: bakaTshokwe: bakaTshokwe na bakaLuena: njo balikuwa hasa na accent/
F: accent/
K: bon/ njo maana...
F: uko na mufano?
K: eh? njo maana: eh?
F: eh...
K: mufano moya?
F: ...?... mufano vile/
K: eh/ ah/
F: njo ya accent tu/
K: banduku: [putting on accent] tu: tutawkendaka wapi? aha/
Ka: ao kama mu kiSwahili unasema: ?ka ma...?... kwangu: acha mi nikuchome mi:
K: acha ninguchome miye/ pahali ya kusema: acha nichome/
F: ah oui/
K: acha ninguchome/
Ka: yo huyu/
K: acha ninguchome/
Ka: acha ninguchome mukukulye/
K: mukukulye/ eh/ iko mingi hapa iko: matata pa kuwaza eh?
F: eeh/
K: i: inakuyaka kama tuko...
F: ...?... mawazo c’est...
K: kama tuko shee benyewe: na: tunafuta kucheka muntu wa...
F: aah/
K: ...kaTshokwe: tunacheka: ita: tu/ bon/ alors: tulikuya tuko tunaprofiter ile: nani: différence ya langues: na baKasai:
F: eeh/
K: na bo balikuwa banasema: baLulua hasa: na bo balikuwa banakuwa kusema kiSwahili: njo tulifanyaka: Kalwasha: na: nani: mm [searching] na bwana moya ya Kasai: balikuwa beko banasema kiSwahili ya kuchekesha/
F: ndiyo/
K: nayee ile tena tunarudia paka mu masketch: mais tunaprofiter plus radio/
24. K: Alright. That was the time when we began to do a lot of sketches. And Mufwankolo began to make up sketches.
F: Mm.
K: Also Kalwasha. I don’t know whether they told you about Kalwasha.
F: No, not yet. Not yet.
K: Alright. About Kalwasha – this belongs to the topic of Swahili. Swahili is different. The Tabwa, they speak good Swahili.
F: Mm.
K: The Swahili the Bemba speak is not very good.
F: Mm.
K: We Luba speak it well, the Tshokwe speak it, but with an accent.
F: Their own accent.
K: Their own, you can say that again.
F: Yes, yes. And what about the Sanga?
K: The Sanga get along (in Swahili), right?
Ka: They get along, more or less.
K: The Sanga get along.
F: There is this thing that always gets a lot of laughs when the Sanga name the busses that are called Chachacha, right?
K: Yes.
F: They say Kyakyakya.
Ka: [laughs]
K: That’s the Bemba,30 it’s ...?... [laughs] but the Tshokwe and the Luena really had an accent.
F: An accent.
K: Indeed, that’s why...
F: Do you have an example?
K: Right? That's why... (you want me to give you)...
F: Yes.
K: ...an example?
F: ...?... an example of...
K: Yes, well.
F: How that accent sounds.
K: Brothers [putting on the accent] where are we going to go? Aha.
Ka: Or when instead of saying in (proper) Swahili ...?... at my place (you say): Leave it, I should grill you, me.
K: Leave it, I should grill you, me. Instead of saying: Leave it, I should do the grilling.
F: Ah, yes
K: [again with an accent] Leave it, I should grill you.
Ka: That’s the one.
K: Leave it, I should grill you.
Ka: Leave it, I should grill you so that you can you.31
K: So that you can eat you. Yes. There are many (examples) but it difficult to think of them (right now), you understand?
F: I see.
K: They would come (to us) if we...
F: ....?... it’s the idea that (counts)...
K: When we are among ourselves we look for ways to make fun of a person...
F: Yes.
K: ...the Tshokwe, you name it. Alright. So we exploited the differences between languages. The Kasaians, too...
F: Yes.
K: They had their way of speaking. And the Lulua spoke Swahili (in their way). So we had Kalwasha play a [searching] man from Kasai. They spoke a Swahili to make you laugh.
F: Yes.
K: We often came back to that in the sketches but we profited most from the radio.32
25. F: ah oui/ donc: pa kurudia ku: ku Kalwasha:
K: Kalwasha oui/
F: ilikwa titre?
K: non/ Kalwasha alikuwa acteur principal/ sasa Mufwankolo leo:
F: ni: ni muntu?
K: eeh/
F: ah oui/
K: eh/
F: Kalwasha/
K: eh/
F: kutoka: Kasai?
K: non non/ ni kaTshokwe/
F: kaTshokwe/
K: huku ku Sandoa: Dilolo: etcetera/ yee Kalwasha: alikuwa eko nasema: kiSwahili ya kikaTshokwe/
F: oui oui/
K: bon/ ungine: nani: Sumishi: alikuwaka nasema: kiSwahili: kiSwahili ya kiKasai/ sasa njo tulikuwa tuko tunaprofiter à même temps: bageni situation ya mbele nalikuelezea:
F: eyo/
K: ya kwenda beko kamata ma:
F: ndiyo/
K: masketch: masituations mu mafashi mingi/
25. F: Ah yes. So, to come back to Kalwasha.33
K: Kalwasha, yes.
F: Was that his stage name?
K: No. Kalwasha was one of the principal actors, like Mufwankolo nowadays.
F: (Does the name) refer to a person?
K: Yes.
F: Ah yes.
K: Yes.
F: Kalwasha.
K: Yes.
F: (Is that a name) from the Kasai?
K: No, no. It is Tshokwe.
F: Tshokwe.
K: (It is from) here, from Sandoa, Dilolo, etc. What Kalwasha did was speak Swahili in the manner of Tshokwe.
F: Yes. Yes.
K: Fine. There was another one, what was the name again? Sumishi. He spoke Swahili the way Kasaians speak it. So we profited from a situation where there were immigrants, as I explained to you earlier.
F: I see.
K: By going on and portraying them...
F: Yes.
K: ... in sketches that played in many situations and settings.
26. F: eh: njo ilikuwa environs soixante? ou?
K: aah: cinq: à partir ya cinquante neuf/ cinquante huit: cinquante neuf oui/
F: [overlapping] ...?...
K: ile wakati minabaacha ku bulaya: minabaacha tunaisha: tunaisha kufanya masketch: tunaenregister ma sketch mingi ku: ku radio/
F: ku radio hapa?
K: eh ndiyo/ hapa radio: Katanga tu/ eko inataya radio du Katanga/
F: mm/
K: wakati tunarudia: tunacontinuer tena kufanya: masketch: mais surtout tunaanza kufanya variété/
F: mm/
K: eh? ma: mapièces ya variété: mais toujours kiSwahili: na kuchanga:
F: mm/
K: eeh: kinywa ingine/
F: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
K: eh/ tulifanya: nani: s: ile medicin malgré lui/
F: oui/
K: kilolo kanambatila: tulifanyaka ku Zambie: tuko tunachanga kiSwahili: na kiBemba saa ile/ [chuckles]
F: kiSwahili na kiBemba/
K: ndiyo/ maneno bantu ya kule: basikie/
F: aah/
K: parce que bo banayua paka kiSwahili: tulicheza Ndola: Kitwe: eh: Luansha: hatukufika ah: tulifanya paka coppelbelt/
26. F: Yes, that was around sixty, right?
K: Ah, starting in fifty-nine, fifty-eight, fifty-nine, yes.
F: [overlapping]...?...
K: At the time I left Europe.34 I left and by that time we performed sketches, we recorded a lot of sketches on the radio.
F: The radio here?
K: Well yes. The radio here in Katanga. It was called Radio du Katanga.
F: Mm.
K: So when we came back (from Europe) we went on playing sketches but above all we began to do vaudeville.
F: Mm.
K: You understand? Vaudeville. But always in Swahili, mixed with...
F: Mm.
K: ...another language.
F: Yes. Yes.
K: Well, so we played medicin malgré lui.
F: Yes.
K: Kilolo kanambatila. When we performed it in Zambia we mixed Swahili and Bemba. [chuckles]
F: Swahili and Bemba.
K: Yes, so the people there would understand (us).
F: I see.
K: Because they only know Swahili [a mistake, he means Bemba]. We played in Ndola and Kitwe but did not get to Luansha. We just performed in the Copperbelt.
27. F: mm/ très bien/ mais: kiisha uliabandonner?
K: sikuabandonner/ ça veut dire: eeh: mu soixante deux: eeh: sasa ilikuwa gouvernement du Ka: Katanga ilianza kunisoutenir:
F: aah/
K: mais: na mavita vita:
F: ndiyo/
K: tulianza ku: fanya tu: kama banatuita ku fêtes/ njo minaita bale batoto nalibakia nalicheza nabo: Mufwankolo: nani: kuya huku: tunafanya sketch:
F: mm/
K: tunacheza/ mu: mu soixante: eh: ...?... mu soixante: minabeba groupe yangu moya ya madanses folkloriques tunakwenda kufanya: ku: ballets: ya indépendance/ tosalisana ku: Kinshasa/
F: mm/
K: sasa ile ni: mise en scène yangu mi mwenyewe:
F: mm/
K: eh/ tena mu soixante six: gouvernement central inaniita: nafanya ballet: ku Dakar/
F: eyo/
K: eh/
F: Dakar/
K: eh: ku Art Nègre/
F: ah: oui/
K: Festival de l’Art: de l’Art Nègre/ minakwenda kufanya ile ballet ya: ya Congo:
F: mm/
K: ilikuwa ni yangu mi/ eh/
F: ulikuwa na nkundi ya mbali mbali ya:
K: eh mbali mbali tuliita bantu wa mukini:
F: mm/
K: monsieur Domani njo baliopaka: kufanya: ku rassembler bantu/ njo alikuwa rassembler:
F: mm/
K: mais mise en scène ni mi nalifanya/
F: mm/
27. F: Mm. Very well. But in the end you gave it up?
K: I did not give it up. That is to say, in sixty two it was the government of Katanga that began to support me.
F: I see.
K: But with the fighting...
F: Yes.
K: What we did was to perform when we were called in for festivities. So I called on those young people I had been performing with, (such as) Mufwankolo and others. Come, I said, let’s do sketches.
F: Mm.
K: Which we did. In sixty ...?... in sixty. I took my group of folkloric dancers and we went to do performances at (the festivities of) Independence in Kinshasa, tosalisana35 (it was called).
F: Mm.
K: I myself directed it.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. Then, in sixty-six, the central government called on me and I directed a dance performance in Dakar.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Dakar.
K: Yes, at the (Festival of) Black Arts.
F: Ah, yes.
K: The Festival of Black Arts. I went there to direct a dance performance representing the Congo.
F: Mm.
K: It was my project, yes.
F: You had a group put together from different parts (of the country).
K: Yes, we invited villagers from different parts.
F: Mm.
K: It was to M. Domani that the task of getting people together was given. He was the one who got them together.
F: Mm.
K: But I did the staging.
F: Mm.
28. K: eeh/ pale narudia kule: kiisha: hakukuye moyen ya: artiste kuvivre: njo naliingia mu Gécamines sasa/
F: c’est ça/
K: bon: mu Gécamines naliendelesha: kufanya ma: maballets/ sasa nalijispécialiser plus:
F: ndiyo/
K: mu maballets/ bon/ sasa hapa sasa:
F: eeh/
K: mu Gécamines bote/
F: eeh/
K: muko troupe moya ya Swahili: troupe moya ya Français/ mu kila cité/ tuko:
F: aah/
K: tuko na quinze cités:
F: eh/
K: kuko au moins: troupe moya ya Swahili: troupe moya ya Français/
F: tiens?
K: eh: mu Gécamines/
F: eh/
K: tunafanyaka concours: kila mwaka: [searching among papers] naweza hata kuonyesha tena: ...?...
[to himself] moya: tuko na hii: ah oui/
F: muko na prix: sawa?
K: mm/
F: eeh/ voilà/
K: souvenir wee utaweza kubeba/
F: aah/ merci/
K: eh/ tunaisha kufanya concours tatu sasa/
F: aah...?... na balichezaka nini? paka mapièces na ya Français?
K: bon/ mapièces: na ya Français: mapièces écrites/ ma: nani: tuko tunawapa thème/
F: thèma: thèma juu ya kubu...
K: badévelopper bo benyewe/
F: oui/ oui/
K: par exemple tunawapa: sécurité/
F: bon/ oui/
K: eh?
F: utartibu/
K: utartibu/
F: oui/
K: d’ailleurs njo bali: gagner prix troisième mu concours: ni bale balifanya utartibu watoto ya ku Kambove/
F: eeh/
K: eh/
28. K: Yes. After I came back from there I (found that) it was impossible to make a living as an artist, that’s when I entered the Gécamines.
F: That’s it.
K: In the Gécamines I went on directing dance performances. That was when I specialized more ...
F: Yes.
K: ... in dance performances. Alright. At this moment...
F: Yes.
K: ...all over the Gécamines...
F: Yes.
K: ...there is one troupe performing in Swahili and one performing in French. We have one in every workers’ settlement.
F: I see.
K: And we have fifteen settlements.
F: Yes.
K: There is at least one troupe performing in Swahili and one performing in French.
F: Really?
K: Yes, in (the settlements of ) the Gécamines.
F: Yes.
K: Every year we organize a competition, [searching among papers] I could even show you one...?... [to himself]. Here we have this one, yes.
F: Do have something like a prize?
K: Mm.
F: I see. That’s (what I thought).
K: You can take it home as a souvenir.
F: Ah, thanks.
K: Yes, by now we have organized three competitions.
F: Aah...?... and what did they perform, just French plays?
K: Alright. Plays in French that had written scripts. We also gave (the actors) a theme.
F: A theme to...
K: ...for them to develop.
F: Yes. Yes.
K: For example, we gave them "Security" (as a theme).
F: Right. Yes.
K: You understand?
F: Utartibu (in Swahili).36
K: Utartibu.
F: Yes.
K: By the way, they got the third prize in the competition, the youngsters from Kambove who performed utartibu.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
29. F: balibaka ba: mwan: mwanaume ao?
K: hapana/ sasa tu: attention/ sasa nirudie/ mille neuf cent soix: eeh: cinquante sept: pale tunaanza nani: spectacle populaire: tunaanza na banawake sasa/
F: aah/
K: banawake banaanza kuimba: tunaanza na banamuke mu masketch/
F: eh/
K: kiisha na maécoles: Sacre Coeur nayee sasa: anaanza kufanya ma petits théâtres/
F: eyo/
K: à ce moment là njo tunaanza kupata wanawake wanaanza kucheza mu michezo yote/ eh/
F: aah/ ...?...
K: mbele banawake ni anza kuimba/ balikuwaka naimba: mais habakuwe beko nacheza michezo mingi hapana/
29. F: (The actors) were boys, right?
K: No. Wait, I must back up now. In 1960, or rather in fifty-seven, that was when we began with female actors in the spectacle populaire.
F: I see.
K: First, the women (only) did the singing, then we began to have women in the sketches.
F: Yes.
K: Later it was the (girl) schools like Sacre Coeur that began to perform little theater plays.
F: I see.
K: It was then that we began to have women who performed in all plays. Yes.
F: I see. ...?...
K: First the women (only) sang. They used to sing but did not perform in many plays.
30. F: très bien/ ku: ni ulizo moya minauliza kila mara/
K: mm/
F: kwa utoto/ kwako/
K: ndiyo/
F: eeh: lugha ya kwanza? ulisema/
K: kiSwahili/
F: ilikuwa kiSwahili/ donc ku nyumba: mulisumbulia:
K: kiSwahili/
F: paka wazazi?
K: bazazi: balikuwa beko nasema kiLuba:
F: kiLuba/
K: mara moya moya:
F: aah/
K: bon: na shee tuko nashikia/ parce que...
F: ah oui ...?... [overlapping]
K: ... tutaweza kusema: tu: tunaanza kusema:
F: eh/
K: ba [clears his throat] minasema: baLuba ni bakwetu eh?
F: oui oui/
K: bo baliwazia: kiSwahili: njo kuya civilisé/
F: eeh/
K: banakatala kusema kiLuba/
F: eyo/
K: eh asema kama unasema kiLuba: uko sawa ki...
Ka: kishenzi/
F: uko mushenzi/
K: eeh/
Ka: oui oui/
K: sema kiSwahili...
Ka: ...?... village/
F: oui/
K: ni de: ni erreur moya na sasa tuko tunaregretter/
F: oui/
K: eh/
F: c’est...
K: [addressing Kalundi] maneno na mwee eh?
Ka: hata shiye/
K: nabo: ni: baTabwa: ni kiSwahili tu/
Ka: hata shiye/
F: paka kiSwahili/
Ka: paka kiSwahili/
F: mm/ oui oui/ kumbe mu mambo yote yote tu: Swahili ...?... mais sawa: questions sentimentales:
Ka: seul/
F: tout/ paka ku...
K: ku tu Katanga yote: kipande ya Kisangani: na kipande ya Bukavu/
Ka: kiSwahili/
K: kiSwahili/
30. F: Very well. There is a question I always ask.
K: Mm.
F: In your childhood.
K: Yes.
F: What was the first language you spoke?
K: Swahili.
F: It was Swahili. So, at home you talked in...
K: Swahili.
F: Even37 the parents?
K: The parents spoke kiLuba.
F: kiLuba.
K: Now and then.
F: I see.
K: Right, and we understood because...
F: Ah yes ...?... [overlapping]
K: ... we could speak it a little (and sometimes did).
F: Yes
K: The [clears his throat] Luba, as I said, are our people, right?
F: Yes. Yes.
K: It was thought that (speaking) Swahili was to be civilized.
F: Yes.
K: So they refused to speak kiLuba.
F: I see.
K: It was said that if you speak kiLuba you are like...
Ka: (some one) from the bush.
F: Your are someone from the bush.
K: Yes.
Ka: Yes. Yes.
K: If you speak Swahili...
Ka: ...?... you come from a village.38
F: Yes.
K: This was a mistake we lived to regret.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: That’s...
K: [addressing Kalundi] Because with you (it was the same), right?
Ka: Even among us ...
K: For them, the Tabwa, too, it was only Swahili
F: Only Swahili.
Ka: Only Swahili.
F: Mm. Yes, yes. So in all matters it was only Swahili...?... But take sentimental questions.
Ka: (Swahili) only.
K: Everywhere in Katanga, in part of the Kisangani and Bukavu regions.
Ka: Swahili.
K: Swahili.
31. F: mais nilikutana mara mingi kwa: mwenye kusema Swahili: donc les locuteurs: ceux qui parlent le Swahili: beko na mawazo: enfin: banawaza juu ya Swahili kama: ts: aah si vraiment lugha: développée: eeh: hainee: kwa: kwa kusema: yote/ una: unawaza vile?
K: ça veut dire: kiSwahili: ku masomo? ku masomo?
F: no no/ Swahili...?... Swahili tunasemaka kila siku/
K: non haita: haitakwenda mbali/
F: non/
K: tuko tunachanga mu Français mingi: mara ingine: zamani tu tuliweka Anglais mingi:
F: Anglais?
K: eeh/ zamani meza tuko tunasema tablo:
Ka: ...?...spuni/
K: spuni/
Ka: foloko/
K: unipe spuni kule/
F: eyo/
K: unipe forko kule/ zamani/
F: ndiyo/
Ka: ...?...
K: sasa: njo tunaanza kuyua pawa: tunaanza kuyua: kisu:
F: mm/
K: non/
F: mm/
K: zamani tungali batoto tuliyuaka spuni: leta mi spuni:
Ka: [addressing me] ao unataka kuuliza kusema donc Swahili ki: haiweze kuendelea?
F: [ignoring the question] ah bon/ minakutana kwa ba: kwa wenye kusema Swahili/ hata: sawa wee/
K: mm/
F: Swahili ni lugha wenu wa: wa:
K: hata yote/
F: ...wa kwanza: munasemaka mu: mu jamaa: munasemaka kiSwahili kila: kila siku: kila siku/ mais malgré tout: munabakia na: na sentiment: kwa kama Swahili:
K: haina langue/
F: si yaa: ya kweli kweli sawa: kiLuba: sawa thsiLuba: sawa eh? sawa Français par exemple/ no/ ule....
Ka: kwa mi kiSwahili itabaki/
F: itabaki/
Ka: itabaki/
K: ...?... ku hii ngambo yetu humu?
F: mm/
K: ku hii ngambo yetu tunapendaka asema kiSwahili ende ...?.../ parce que kiSwahili: kama tunaanza batoto banafunda kiSwahili bora:
F: mm/
K: batatambuka ku Tanganyika: batatambuka ku:
Ka: Zanzibar: Uganda/
K: ku Zanzi: ku Uganda:
F: c’est vrais/
K: mm/
Ka: hapa ni kiSwahili/ mais: iko sawa: Lubumbashi: Bukavu: Kisangani/ ile ...?...
F: mm/
Ka: mais ile ngambo kile: kiLuba: tuko na Mangala/
K: Lingala eeh/ ma...?... sasa kwa: d’ailleurs: ku: kiSwahili sasa na mu Kinshasa inakuya mingi/
Ka: inakuya mingi/
K: na comme na Lingala sasa:
F: ndiyo/
K: na humu inakuya mingi/
F: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
K: zamani Lingala humu hautasikia/
Ka: huku iliingia pa bamilitaires: basoldats/
K: mm/
F: mm/
Ka: oui/ mais sasa ...?... kiSwahili iko yulu/
F: ha: muwezi kuacha Swahili?
Ka: kiSwahili hatuwezi kuacha/
K:: hapana/ hapana/ minaisha kuikala ku missions mingi ku Kinshasa.... [interrupted by phone ringing; recording stopped]
31. Yet, what I often found was that speakers of Swahili, speakers in the sense that they talk Swahili (all the time) have certain opinions about Swahili not being a language that is fully developed, that it cannot express everything. Do you also think that?
K: That means Swahili in school, in education?
F: No, no. Swahili...?... the Swahili we speak every day.
K: No, that will not go far.
F: No.
K: Sometimes we mix it with a lot of French. In the old days we would put in a lot of English.
K: Yes. In those days we would call a table tablo.
Ka: ...?.. or spuni (spoon)
K: Spuni.
Ka: Foloko (fork).
K: Give me the spuni there.
F: I see.
K: Give me the forko there.
F: Yes.
Ka: ...?...
K: Now we know it is pawa (spoon) and kisu (knife).39
F: Mm.
K: No.
F: Mm.
K: Long ago when we were still children we knew spuni. Bring me the spuni.
Ka: [addressing me] Or was the sense of your question that Swahili cannot move forward?
F: [ignoring the question] I meet people who can count as competent speakers of Swahili. Like you.
K: Mm.
F: Swahili is the language...
K: (Capable of expressing) just about everything.
F: ... you speak it as the first one. In the family you speak Swahili every day. Every day. But still, you keep feeling that Swahili...
K:... is not really a language.
F: Not a real one like kiLuba, tshiLuba, or French, for example. Right? No, that...
Ka: As far as I am concerned, Swahili will stay.
F: It will stay.
Ka: It will stay.
K: ...?... here in our region?
F: Mm.
K: In our region here we would like Swahili to develop ...?... Because if our children begin to learn refined Swahili...
F: Mm.
K: They will get along in Tanganyika (meaning: Tanzania). The will get along...
Ka: In Zanzibar, Uganda.
K: In Zanzibar, in Uganda.
F: That’s true.
K: Mm.
Ka: Here Swahili is (the common language), but that is the case in Lubumbashi, Bukavu, Kisangani. This...?...
F: Mm.
Ka: But in the area where kiLuba is spoken we also have speakers of Lingala.
K: Lingala, yes. ...?... by the way, as regards Swahili, nowadays it is spoken a lot in Kinshasa.
Ka: A lot.
K: This is like Lingala which nowadays...
F: Yes.
K: ... is spoken a lot here (in Katanga).
F: Yes. Yes.
K: In the old days you wouldn’t have heard any Lingala here.
Ka: Here it was introduced (lit. it entered) by the military, the soldiers.
K: Mm.
F: Mm.
Ka: Yes. But right now...?... Swahili dominates.
F: You cannot abandon Swahili?
Ka: We cannot abandon Swahili.
K: No way. I have often stayed in Kinshasa when I traveled for my work... [interrupted by phone ringing; recording stopped]
32. F: ...presque fini/ mais: mu: ts: muliona ku: kun maisha yenu/ muliona: maendelea: sa: changement ao progrès mu Swahili? maneno ba: bengine balinguistes: nitaku: nitaeleza mbele: sawa linguistes banawaza namna gani/ banawaza: environs vingt: mille neuf cent vingt: dix: eh? Swahili ilif: ilifika hapa: mais ilikuwa tu Swahili: ya: ya:
Ka: kibulumbulu/
F: oui/
Ka: ovyo ovyo/
F: oui/
Ka: ndiyo/
F: mais: hata: acha:
K: mm: mm: mm/ ts: mi niko: partagé mu bintu mbili/ [laughs]
F: njo théorie ya linguistes: mi: sina d’accord/ minawaza: na wee unani: unanieleza sasa: minawaza: Swahili: ile wakati ilifika: ilifika tu sawa lugha: complète/ ba: ni vrais: bantu balichanga na: kiAnglais: na kiBemba:
K: après/
F: he?
K: après/
F: après/
K: oui/ parce que sinakupa example ya baba?
F: eeh/
K: eh? baba alifika humu: iko nasema kiSwahili bora/ kiSwahili ile alifunda ku Albertville/
Ka: ah oui/
F: oui/
K: eh? alifunda ku Albertville: etcetera: ni ile wakati ikingali: Kalemie sasa: Albertville...
F: sa: ndiyo/
K: bon/ alifundaka kiSwahili bora/ anafika hapa na kiSwahili bora/
F: alikuwa: mu: muntu: kwa: kwa Gécamines?
K: hapana/ baba alikuya: indépendent/ [brief interruption of recording]
F: donc ku: ku vingt huit alikuwa inde: indépendent déjá?
K: oui oui/
F: kwa: ni ku:
K: menusier/
F: menusier/
K: eeh/
F: alikuwa ku: kutumika? ...?...
K: alifwata huku: ku: mbele alikuwa na nani: luka/ balikuwa banasema luka/
Ka: luka ...?...
K: commerçant ambulant/ eh: alikuwa na: alikuwa na:
F: oui/
K: kuuzisha bintu/
Ka: luka c’était le commerçant/
F: oui/
Ka: luka c’était iko na kamagazin yake/ kashop/
K: non: pas fixe/ pas fixe/
F: ...?...
K: luka/ tu luka/
F: mule mwee munasema luk: luka: mais c’est: ni mi: ni mu: [snapping fingers] Hindustani/
K: aaah oui/ ni bo balisema vile...
F: banasema nduka/
K: oui/
Ka: ah nduka/
K: donc que beko anauzisha hapa leo: kesho anakwenda: ...?... anakwenda/
F: [overlapping] eeh/ eeh/
K: anafanya vile/ kiisha pale anfika huku mu millle neuf cent vingt huit: anaanza kufunda menuserie:
F: oui/
K: directement: anakuya: nani: alitumika kwa muzungu moya kiloko maneno ya kufunda:
F: oui/
K: anakuya indépendent/
32. F:... (we are) almost finished. But, how shall I put it, during your lifetime did you observe change or progress in Swahili. Because some linguists – I must explain this first what certain linguists think – assume that Swahili arrived here around 1920 or ’10, right? But it was only a kind of Swahili that...
Ka: ... was white man’s talk.40
F: Yes.
Ka: A mishmash.
F: Yes.
Ka: Yes.
F: But even – wait a minute...
K: Mm, mm, mm. I am of two minds about this. [laughs]
F: That is the theory of the linguists with which I don’t agree. What I think – and you have been explaining this to me – at the time Swahili arrived as a full language. True, people mixed it with English and Bemba...
K: (That was) later.
F: Sorry?
K: Later.
F: Later.
K: Yes. Because did I not give you the example of my father?
F: Yes.
K: Right? When father arrived here he spoke proper Swahili, the kind of Swahili he had learned in Albertville.
Ka: Ah that, yes.
F: Yes.
K: Right? He learned it in Albertville, and places like that. At that time it was still Albertville, now it is Kalemie...
F: Yes.
K: Alright then, he had learned proper Swahili. He arrived here (speaking) proper Swahili.
F: Was he employed by the Gécamines?
K: No, father came on his own. [brief interruption of recording] 41
F: So in twenty-eight he already was on his own.
K: Yes. Yes.
F: As what?
K: As a carpenter.
F: A carpenter.
K: Yes.
F: So he was working? ...?...
K: He followed his first trade as a luka. The used to call it duka.
Ka: Luka...?...
K: A peddler. Yes, he had a....
F: Yes.
K: ...(a business) selling things.
Ka: Luka meant trader.
F: Yes.
Ka: Luka meant he had his little store. A little shop.42
K: No, it was not stationary. It wasn’t stationary.
F: ...?...
K: Luka (it was called), just luka.
F: What you pronounce as luka comes from [snapping fingers] Hindustani.
K: Ah yes. That’s what they call it.
F: They say nduka.
K: Yes.
Ka: Ah, nduka.
K: At any rate, today he would sell things here, the next day he would go...?... he would go (elsewhere).
F: [overlapping] I see. I see.
K: That’s what he was doing. Then, when he arrived here in 1928, he began to learn carpentry.
F: Yes.
K: Right after he came here he worked for a European now and then because he had learned (the trade)
F: Yes.
K: He became independent.
33. F: mais ile wakati: maneno: minawaza aussi: kama: kila lugha inataka: nkundi/ inataka: hauwezi kuwa na lugha kwasipo: kwasipo wantu wenye kusema lugha/
K: aah/ ndiyo/
F: hapa mu Gécamines: Union Minière: balikuwa kusema Anglais surtout: et kiKabanga/ habasemake Swahili ile wakati/
K: mm/
F: mbele ya: mille neuf cent dix sept/
K: ndiyo/
F: donc: banani balikuwa kusema Swahili? na mi minawaza kama hata mu dix sept: ilikuwa tu cités/ sawa cités: ya baindépendents/ eh?
K: kulikuwa cités tatu: humu mu Lubumbashi/ munene/ kulikuwa cité: ya Union Minière:
F: Union Minière:
K: BCK:
F: eeh/
K: l’état: njo macités ya: organisées par: le patronat/
Ka: ...?...
F: ile: oui/
Ka: ...?... zamani Union Minière hapana kamata kila kabila/ par exemple baNyasaland: ngambo yabo/
K: ngambo yabo eh/
Ka: et: baRundi:
K: ngambo yabo/
Ka: ngambo yabo/ bantu ya huku...
K: baRundi: baRundi ni ku mukongo walikuya/
Ka: ku mukongo/
K: ku mukongo/
Ka: ni baNyasaland ...?...
K: ni baNyasa....
F: si ilikuwa: hata mbele ya CEC ah? na bale: maCEC: balianza ku mu vingt:
Ka: Centres Extra-Coutumiers?
F: oui/ balianza mu vingt: kama ni vingt deux: vingt: sijui/ mais mbele: hata mbele: ilikuwa tu cité ya: ya: maneno: bantu bengine hapa: eh: balifika: bamingi hapa: hata kwasipo kazi kwa: kwa Ge...
K: ndiyo/
F:...Union Minière: ou: ha?
K: baba...
F: ...?...
K: baba alifika pasipo kazi/
F: ha? pasipo kazi: balikuwa nani...
Ka: bantu baTabwa/
F: ... commerce ya makala:
K: eeh/ bakipalo: njo balikuwa beko nakamata ku: ku Union Minière/
Ka: ku Union Minière ku...
K: eeh/
Ka: Kalukuluku/
K: Kalukuluku: banaweka paka Lukuluku: naneno ya formation/ mais ...?... alikuwa wanatoka kwabo: wanakwenda na: wagons:
F: oui/
K: sasa anakuongesha machine ya coudre: bintu gani: asema mukuye banaweka: unakuya/
F: mm/
K: mais kulikuwaka bengine balibakia na ...?... baba alibakia na mukulu yee/
F: comme baba yake yee?
Ka: ah oui/
K: eeh/ alitoka na mukulu kule kwetu/
F: eeh/
K: anakuya: maneno ya kutafuta kazi/
F: aah/
K: maneno nduku yake alikuyaka: nayee alikuyaka ...?...
F:... baba yako alikuwa: alikuwa tena mu: Manono vile vile?
K: eh: ku Kiyambi/
F: Kiyambi/ donc eh...
Ka: ...?...
K: Manono eh/
F: ah/ alikuwa: donc: ya kabila moya/
K: ndiyo/ ni kabila moya kule/ ni ile ...?... yetu moya/
F: ah oui/ na yee vilevile alisema Swahili?
K: kule anasema Swahili bora/
F: eeh/
K: anafika huku: anaharibisha Swahili yake/
Ka: c’est ça oui/
33. But in those days (who were the speakers)? Because I also think that every language needs a community. You can’t have a language without people who speak that language.
K: Ah, yes.
F: In this region, in the Gécamines, or rather Union Minière, they spoke mostly English and kiKabanga. At time they did not speak Swahili.
K: Mm.
F: Before 1917.
K: Yes.
F: So, who were the speakers of Swahili? What I think is that already around ’17 there were townships, settlements of independent people. Right?43
K: There were three townships here in Lubumbashi, large ones. There was a settlement for (workers of) the Union Minière.
F: The Union Minière.
K: The BCK (railway company).
F: Yes.
K: (And) the state. Those were the settlements organized by the employers.
Ka: ...?..
F: That one, yes.
Ka: ...?... the old days the Union Minière would not take people from every ethnic group. (Those who came from) Nyasaland had their own place.
K: Their own place, yes.
Ka: And also the people from Urundi.
K: (They had) their own place.
Ka: The same went for the people from this region...
K: The people from Urundi came afterwards.
Ka: Afterwards.
K: Afterwards.
Ka: It was the people from Nyasaland...?...
K: It was the Nyasa....44
F: Was it not the case that even before the CEC were set up around ’20...
Ka: (You mean) the Centres Extra-Coutumiers.
F: Yes. They were started around ’20, in twenty-two or twenty, I don’t know. But even before there was a township because many other people arrived here who were not working for the Ge...
K: Yes.
F: ...the Union Minière.
K: Father...
F: ...?...
K: Father came here without a job.
F: Right? Without a job. There were, what do I know...
Ka: The Tabwa.
F: ... (people) in the charcoal business.
K: Yes. (And than there were) the bakipalo,45 people recruited by the Union Miniére.
Ka: Be the Union Miniére in...
K: Yes.
Ka: Kalukuluku46.
K: Kalukuluku. People were placed at Lukuluku for training. But...?... when they left their home they went in railway freight cars.
F: Yes.
K: (When they were recruited the company) threw in a sewing machine, what not. They said come, offered (the incentives), and you would come.
F: Mm.
K: But it also happened that others stayed and ...?... My father stayed with his older brother.
F: Like his (Kalundi’s) father?
Ka: Ah yes.
K: Right. Then he left home together with his older brother
F: Yes.
K: He came here, looking for work.
F: I see.
K: Because his brother had come here. He also had come here ...?...
F:...your father was also in Manono?
K: From Kiyambi.
F: Kiyambi. So...
Ka: ...?...
K: (Close to) Manono, yes.
F: I see. So he belonged to a certain ethnic group.
K: Yes. There is one ethnic group there, ours.47
F: Ah, yes. And he also spoke Swahili.
K: Over there he spoke proper Swahili.
F: I see.
K: When he came here he spoiled his Swahili.
Ka: That’s it, yes.
34. F: très bien/ ma: hata sasa: njo kintu moya ya nguvu/ namna ya kusema ya bamama eh? minaona sawa mi minasikia: Swahili ya: ya wabibi eh? inaachana kwa Swahili ya: ya: bwana/
K: hapana/ ni kabila/
F: ni kabila?
K: ni kabila/ parce que: kuko bantu...
F:... sawa baKasai:
K: batoto: batoto mingi bale banatoka ku Kasai sasa/
F: eeh/
K: habaseme kiSwahili: beko bansema kiSwahili namna yabo tu/
F: eh/
K: bon/ ba: sawa sawa vile tunasema bakaTshokwe: ao bakaLunda: kaTshokwe: nani: parce que: kaTshokwe hata mu: bale tulikomea nabo ku masomo: kama atasema utasikia/ utasema:
Ka: ndiyo/ Tshokwe/
K: huyu ni kaTshokwe/
F: juu ya accent yake/
Ka: juu ya accent/
K: accent yake eh/ tena na kusema kiSwahili mubaya: yee hapana kusema ...?...kiSwahili muzuri/ eh/ tandis que: kulikwa ba: baLuba: baTabwa: eh: surtout baLuba ya Manono: kule ku Manono: Kiyambi etcetera: surtout kule tulikuyaka karibu na Baudouinville/ tuko karibu ya Baudouinville/ bapadri balikuwa banatoka ku: ku: Marungu: banakuya kule kwetu: tulisema kiSwahili muzuri/
F: mm/
K: ile naye inawa: inawaza inafaa kuambia: papadri nabo baliingisha kiSwahili sana/
F: mm/
Ka: ndiyo/
F: surtout ba: baPères Blancs/
K: baPères Blancs/
Ka: oui/
K: baliingisha kiSwahili: ile ngambo ya: nord eeh/
F: ya nord/
K: eh/
F: hata kule ku ngambo ya nord: sawa: sawa Nyangwe na: nani: Kasongo...
K: c’est ça kule eeh/
F: ilikuwa migini ya waArabes/
Ka: Arabu ni kiSwahili/
F: oui oui/
K: maneno beko na kiSwahili ile ya nguvu:
Ka: kiSwahili nguvu/
K: tena eh: wale eh: kubalula: weko wanabalula namna ingine/ na msirini: na nini: moi je ne comprends pas rien de tout/ [laughs]
F: [laughs]
K: ?hafuraba: eh?
34. F: Very well. Now, there is one thing (I find) difficult. It’s the way women speak, you understand? I observed this and in my experience, the Swahili spoken by women differs from that spoken by men.
K: No, it is the ethnic group (that makes the difference).
F: It’s the ethnic group?
K: It’s the ethnic group. Because there are people...
F: ...like the Kasaians.
K: The young ones. Nowadays there are many youngster who come from the Kasai.
F: Yes.
K: They don’t speak (proper) Swahili. They speak Swahili in their own manner.
F: Yes.
K: Alright. As we said about the Tshokwe and the Lunda, especially the Tshokwe, even those with whom we grew up together at school, if a Tshokwe speaks you are going to hear it and be able to tell...
Ka: Yes. A Tshokwe.
K: ...this one is a Tshokwe.
F: Because of his accent.
Ka: Because of the accent.
K: His accent, yes. And also his bad Swahili, he doesn’t speak ...?.. Swahili well.48 Yes. Whereas if you have a Luba, a Tabwa, especially Luba from Manono, from the region of Manono, Kiyambi, etc. (it would be different). Above all, there we were close to Baudouinville. We were close to Baudouinville. From the Marungu the missionaries came to our place. (That is why) we spoke Swahili well.
F: Mm.
K: This, I think, is something I should tell you: It was above all the missionaries who introduced Swahili.
F: Mm.
Ka: Yes.
F: Especially the White Fathers.
K: The White Fathers.
Ka: Yes.
K: They introduced49 Swahili in the North, yes.
F: In the North.
K: Yes.
F: Especially in the North, (in places) like Nyangwe, Kasongo...
K: That’s it. Over there, yes.
F: ... which were Arab settlements.
Ka: Arabs means Swahili.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Because they have this difficult Swahili.
Ka: A difficult Swahili.
K: Also, they count differently and (use words like) msirini.50 [in French] I don’t understand a word. [laughs]
F: [laughs]
K: Hafuraba51, right?
35. ile sw: ile Swahili ya: iko sawa kwa Mwana Shaba: una: unasikia lote?
K: beko napima kuandika eko muzuri kidoko/ sasa habaandiaka tena: zamani balikuwa banaandika beko banaandika kiSwahili/
F: oui/
K: eh/
F: nani anaandika sasa? anapata phrases ya ku pensionés?...?....
Ka: ...?...
K: sasa beko banaandika paka Français/ banaandika paka Français/
F: paka Français?
K: eeh/ kiSwahili kidoko tu/
F: eeh/
K: mm/
F: eeh/
K: sawa vile muntu akitafuta kuandika Swahili: anapima/ kuandika/ iko sawa sawa mu ?kuaruzu: kama anasema kiSwahili ya: bon/ sawa: example ingine sasa/ radio/ ku Kinshasa: ao telévision Kinsh: ku Kinshasa/ hapana sema Swahili?
F: mm/
K: na shee hatusikie kintu/
F: oui/ kumbe ni: ni nani ana: anaandika?
K: anaandika? hatuyue/ ma ?kuaruzu: mi nalikuwa kusema mi mwenyewe/
F: eh/
K: minawaambia mu kuaruzu minasema non: hii kiSwahili eko anasema: huku hatusikie/
Ka: ...?....
K: hapa: parce que: kama unasema ku telévision: ni neno bantu basikie/
F: oui/
K: sasa uko nasema ya ovyo inyewe/ he/
F: sawa mara ingine minaona mu telévision: banaanza: bana: banajikaza kuanza na s: Swahili bora/
K: eh: kati kati....
F: katika:
K: inarudia/
Ka: eh oui/
F: inarudia ku Swahili ya hapa/
K: eeh/
Ka: ndiyo/
K: tena fasi ingine beko nafanya nguvu: ni ku nyumba ya Mungu/
F: ah oui/
K: que ce soit protestant: que ce soit catholique: que ce...?... kote: banapima kusema kiSwahili muzuri/
F: eyo/
K: banakazana eh?
F: oui/
K: mais habaseme muzuri: mais banakaza/
F: ndiyo/
K: na sasa mu théâtre: d’ailleurs nitakwenda kuprésenter ku: direction:
F: mm/
K: eh? de: na sasa ku théâtre: tuko ku: matroupes yetu ya Gécamines:
F: mm/
K: ya ile tunasema troupe moya ya Swahili: troupe moya ya Swahili: tuko tunakazana: baseme kiSwahili muzuri: mu théâtre/
F: ndiyo/
K: hapana kiSwahili bora: mais kiSwahili muzuri/
F: no ...?... Swahili/
K: eh/ banapima...
F: hapana kizungu/
K: eheh/
F: kibulubulu/
K: kibulubulu eheh [chuckles]
Ka: oui/ kinywa ya ovyo ovyo...?...
35. F: The kind of Swahili (you read in) Mwana Shaba52, can you understand everything?
K: They are trying to write in a somewhat refined manner. Nowadays they don’t do this any longer. In the old days they used to write (refined) Swahili.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: Who is the writer now? Does he get his phrases from retired people? ...?...53
Ka: ...?...
K: Nowadays they only write in French. They only write in French.
F: Only in French?
K: Yes. Just little pieces in Swahili.
F: I see.
K: Mm.
F: I see.
K: If some wants to write (refined) Swahili he tries writing it. It is like in kuaruzu54 when good Swahili is spoken. Another example is the radio in Kinshasa, or the television in Kinshasa. Isn’t Swahili spoken there?
F: Mm.
K: And we don’t understand a thing.
F: Yes. So, who writes this?
K: Write it? We don’t know. As regards kuaruzu, I myself have spoken there.
F: Yes.
K: I told them during kuaruzu, no, the kind of Swahili (radio or television speaker) use we don’t understand here.
Ka: ...?...
K: When you speak on television this is something people should understand.
F: Yes.
K: But what you speak is completely incomprehensible, really.
F: Sometimes when I watch (local) television I observe that an effort is made to employ refined Swahili.
K: Well, now and then.
F: But eventually...
K: ... it’s back to (local Swahili).
F: It’s back to local Swahili.
K: Yes.
Ka: Yes.
K: Another place where people make an effort is in church.
F: Ah, yes.
K: Be it protestant, or catholic, everywhere, they try to speak good Swahili.
F: I see.
K: They make an effort, right?
F: Yes.
K: Though they don’t speak (really) well, they make an effort.
F: Yes.
K: And also in the theater right now – by the way, I am about to present (this) to the management.
F: Mm.
K: This regards one of the troupes that use Swahili. In one of the Swahili troupes we make an effort so that good Swahili is spoken in the theater.
F: Yes.
K: Not refined Swahili, but good Swahili.
F: No ...?... (good) Swahili.
K: Well, they try.
F: Not the way Europeans speak it.
K: Right.
F: Kibulubulu.55
K: Kibulubulu, yes, [chuckles]
Ka: Yes, a mishmash of a language.
36. F: minajikaza/
Ka: ndiyo/
K: maneno we unasema muzuri/
F: sasa ni miaka ya: miaka: makumi mbili/
Ka: ndiyo wee unajikaza...
K: uaanza mwaka gani kusema kiSwahili?
F: soixante six/
K: kusema kiSwahili?
F: oui/
K: kutafuta kiSwahili ao kusema/
F: nili: nilifunza mu: mu Musonoi/
K: ah kumbe uko kaTshokwe eh? [laughs]
F: hapana: no ...?... kwa: non non non: balikuwa kwa nani: kwa: sawa [pauses] mbele: ku mwanzo: ni: monpère/ alinifundisha/ Bertin/
K: eeh/
F: nayee alikuwa sawa muLuba eh? yee/ lugha yake ya kwanza ilikuwa kiLuba/
K: ah bon/
F: ali: alianza: enfin nayee alisema: mu accent: mu accent ya...
K: ya kiLuba/ ah bon/ [chuckles]
F: eeh: habaseme kufa: anasema kufwa/
K: kufwa/
Ka: un peu comme ...?... ici/
F: eeh/
K: kufwa eh/
F: njo: njo kiLuba/
K: mais siye tulipita ku masomo ya: kiSwahili kidogo: tulitu: funda sarufi/ tuta: tutaanza kusema ah: muntu anakufwa/
F: mais ni mi s: sifunda hata: neno moya ya sarufi/ paka na masikio [interruption, door squeaks a female office worker enters]
K: oui?
F: eh/
K: eh/ [to the office worker] mama ikoamo?
Office worker: mama iko/
K: ni nani? ni nani?
Office worker: Salumu/
K: Salumu?
F: tuna ...?... ah bon/
[recording ends]
36. F: I make an effort, (too).
Ka: Yes.
K: Because you speak (Swahili) well.
F: By now it has been so many years, twenty.
Ka: Yes, you make an effort.
K: What was the year when you began to speak Swahili?
F: Sixty-six.
K: Speak Swahili?
F: Yes.
K: Studying Swahili or speaking it?
F: I learned it in Musonoi.
K: Well, then you are a Tshokwe, right? [laughs]
F: No, not really... they were, what was it again? [pauses] In the beginning it was a missionary who taught me, (Father) Bertin.
K: I see.
F: And he was like a Luba, you understand? His first (African) language was kiLuba.
K: Ah, I see.
F: He began, well, how shall I put it: He had the accent of...
K: ... kiLuba. Ah, I see. [chuckles]
F: They don’t say kufa (to die), he said kufwa.
Ka: A bit like...?... (they speak) here.
F: Yes.
K: Kufwa, yes.
F: That’s kiLuba.
K: But we did quite a bit of Swahili at school, we learned Sarufi.56
F: However, I did not learn a word from a grammar. Just by listening [interruption, door squeaks a female office worker enters]
K: Really?
F: Yes.
K: Well [to the office worker], is the woman here?
Office worker: The woman is here.
K: Who is it? Who is it?
Office worker: Salumu.
K: Salumu?
F: We are...?... ah, alright.
[recording ends]

 

 


Notes

1 I had learned the term conducteur when I worked with the Groupe Mufwankolo on Le pouvoir se mange entier: a one-page written/typed outline of a sketch or play. Kisimba probably understood my question as asking about a director (see the end of the following paragraph where he says that they had no promoteur).
2 Some general observations on Kalundi’s contribution to this exchange: Because he was probably farther away from the microphone than Kisimba and I many of his interjections were poorly recorded, making transcription difficult or impossible. He seldom raised his voice, often he just echoed Kisimba (affirming by repeating), and often his response overlapped with Kisimba’s. Still, he did make important contributions, for instance when he helped Kisimba with recalling names and events, or when he added information (such as mentioning kiKabanga in par. 18). Notice also that Kisimba deferred to him, calling him "mukubwa Albert" in par. 17.
3 What I transcribe as eeh usually is an affirmation but with a different intonation (high-low) it can mean the opposite ("really?").
4 Dom Lamoral was the founder of the Petits chanteurs de la Croix de Cuivre in Elisabethville/Lubumbashi.
5 "Rover" is the highest grade in the Boy Scout hierarchy.
6 What I translate as "in town" Kisimba calls kizungu, the world of the Whites/ Europeans. In this short fragment of a plot he says that it happened wakati ya wazungu, in the times of the Whites. Most likely it was about a common situation in colonial times when men sought work in the towns and had to leave their families behind in the villages.
7 Kisimba pronounced it dyas. Congo Jazz became a generic term for modern Congolese music (one of the famous orchestras was called O.K. Jazz).
8 I had heard about Jecoké earlier and thought it meant Jeux Coquets until Kisimba corrected me.
9 That is what I hear; I have been unable to find out what the term refers to.
10 On the Cercle Saint Benoît and its historical role as a forum for educated Congolese in Elisabethville/ Lubumbashi, see Bruce Fetter,"The Luluabourg Revolt at Elisabethville." African Historical Studies (1969), pp. 269-277.
11 Lit. it says "you are three." Kisimba must have sensed that, in his story, he needed to get back to JeCoKe, the comedy team of three he had been part of before he moved on to organize folkloric dance.
12 My questioning in this passage caused some confusion. Dom Lamoral (see note 3 above) was the founder of the Petits Chanteurs. Joseph Kiwele was his student and successor as director of the choir. Kiwele was a famed church musician and composer of, among others, a "Missa Katanga," not to be confused with the "Missa Luba" (which was on my mind during this exchange), a world hit composed and adapted from traditional songs by Fr. Guido Haazen, a Franciscan at the Kamina mission and performed by the "Les Troubadours du Roi Baudouin" (first recorded by Phillips in 1958; see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missa_Luba).
13Kisimba says mu kudya mukate, to eat bread (notice that he uses the Luba verb kudya rather than the local Swahili kula or kulya). Mukate, bread, serves as a metaphor for both the necessities and the joys of life (surviving and living). In the sentence that follows he asserts that the necessities and joys of "every day" (journalier) are not subject to "modernization."
14 He makes an important theoretical point here: "tradition" as a contemporary process.
15When I asked these question, I had already read Terence O. Rangers Dance and Society in Eastern Africa, 1890-1970: The Beni Ngoma. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1975, and J. Clyde Mitchell’s The Kalela dance: Aspects of social relationships among urban Africans in Northern Rhodesia. Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1956. The exchange leaves the impression that neither Kalundi nor Kisimba had clear memories of Kalela (notice that they pronounce it variously as Kanena or Kalena). I have been unable to trace the qualifyer kabolozo or kabolonzo they used with Kalela.
16Usually a distinction between the varieties of Luba spoken in Katanga and in the Kasai is marked by the contrast between ki- and tshi- (or chi-). One may hear echoes of ethnic strife when Kisimba speaks of thsiKasai (and kiKasai) instead of tshiLuba.
17 Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 97 describe di-bunga as follows: "jeu consistant à lever le même pied que celui levé par le partenaire."
18 A casual statement, worth pondering. Why did "kiKasai" not become a medium of popular culture in Katanga? Why were baKasai apparently absorbed in, drawn to Swahili? As a medium of "modernity?’ What does this say about the stereotype of the "progressive" Kasaian? See Kisimba’s earlier observation on Kasaians teaching their children tshiLuba "later."
19 Three Rhodesias? There was North Rhodesia (now Zambia) and South Rhodesia (Zimbabwe). Since we were talking about kiKabanga, more widely known as Fanagalo, the third "Rhodesia" would have been South Africa.
20 With the verb –changa, to collect, bring together, mix, Kisimba evokes the social history of kiKabanga/Fanagalo. The promotion of these vehicular work languages was tied to the mining industry in South Africa, the Copperbelt, and until the First World War, in Katanga where it was then replaced by Swahili. The managers of the multi-ethnic worker’s settlements (compound, kompun, komponi signified "camp de travailleus") were called changachanga.
21 Kisimba used the verb –kutana, to meet. I translate it as "to find" because this seems, short of long paraphrases, to convey the point of Kisimba’ statement: Lingala was already established when we "came upon" it.
22 Kisimba, who had just agreed that Lingala was used in the training of policemen, seems to contradict himself. I have often found such contradictions in conversations with my interlocutors (I remember countless responses to questions I asked or statements I made being met with "Yes, but no"). The problem this presents is solved when one assumes that the contradiction is not logical but rhetorical, reflecting a "dialectical" style of communication.
23 Who was Memba Prosper? In recollections of the past proper names often serve as mile posts.
24 "Camps de police" were barracks as well as settlements where policemen lived with their families.
25 Lit. "Our Rejoicing." Performed on August 3. 1956 at Leopold II Stadium in Lubumbashi as part of the festivities of the 50th anniversary of the Union Minière du Haut Katanga. The show featured groups of dancers and musicians from the Belgian Congo and Ruanda-Urundi.
26 Jean-Marc Landier, Jacques Huisman; names of stage directors, found on the Internet through the search engine ASP@sia (Active Server Pages - Spectacles Internet Archives).
27 "The reluctant doctor," a play by Molière.
28 "A plan" or "an outline" was the meaning I had in mind when I used the term in paragr. 1.
29 See ki-lolo in van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 360 as a term for a person of authority who executes the orders of a chief.
30There was a joke within a joke here: Actually the phonological contrast cha/kya marks the difference between tshiLuba and kiLuba speakers and it is the (often rural) Luba Katanga, Kisimba’s own group, that are made fun of by Lubumbashi urbanites when the phonological rules of their language ruin onomatopoetic effect of Chachacha (the sound of airbrakes on modern busses). Kisimba was not fooled by my deflecting the stereotype on the Sanga (close neighbors and fellow "Katangese") and puts it on the Bemba, a weak attempt given the phonology of Bemba (in which the prefix that serves as the vehicle of the joke is chi- rather than ki-).
31 Kisimba and Kalundi are trying to imitate of the Tshokwe "accent" Kalwasha puts on in sketches. In the example phrase they come up with (a person tells his guest to wait a moment so he can grill (some meat) for him) they use prosodic features (intonation and pitch) as well as morphological "mistakes" (with pronouns) that sound funny but cannot be adequately rendered in a translation, which is also always a problem with exchanges that are performative rather than explanatory.
32 Although Kisimba uses only French words in this phrase it is not clear what it means. My best guess is he wanted to say that doing accents worked best in radio shows.
33 About Kalwasha, also known as Sondashi, see "Le pouvoir se mange entier": http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/laps/lepouvoirsemangeentierintro.html#Members
34 Literally its says "I left them in Europe." The context suggests that he does not refer to people he was touring with; "them" are the people in Europe.
35 This is Lingala, perhaps an echo of some political slogan (tosalisana, we help each other).
36 I came up with the Swahili term because I remembered seeing it on posters in the Zinc plant where I did research in the seventies.
37 I began the question with paka, only, but suggesting that only the parents spoke Swahili would not make sense. So the meaning (caught by Kisimba) was something like "But what about the parents"?
38 Kisimba does not complete the sentence, Kalundi elaborates on the meaning of mushenzi.
39Of the two examples given (lu)pawa is kiLuba (van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:505) and I never heard an English loan word for kisu.
40Kalundi packs this in one word, kimbulubulu, the language of, or the way bulu, whites, talk; from Afrikaans boer. Duplication of term expresses contempt or derision. Perhaps bulu was a more or less neutral designation, the equivalent of muzungu, when it was used, as I assume, in Fanagalo/Kikabanga. The few times I heard it speakers left no doubt that it was an expression of disrespect.
41 We were disturbed by traffic at the office that kept a door squeaking.
42 Kalundi says kashop, English shop+diminutive prefix.
43There is a lack of precision in this part of our exchange. The term cité (which I translate as township or settlement) was used above all to contrast parts of the town inhabited by African with the center that was reserved for Europeans (and their domestic personnel). It could also designate government- from company-administrated settlements. In late colonial and post-colonial times squatters towns were also called cités. Company towns were officially cités de travailleurs; in popular language they were usually but not consistently referred to as compound (kompund, komponi) or camp.
44 Because part of Kalundi’s statement is not comprehensible (in the recording) it is difficult to make out why the recruits from Nyasaland were brought up again. Historically, they were among the earliest employees in the local mines.
45 I first found the term kipalo (probably Bemba) in the Vocabulaire where it is explained in a footnote. http://www. lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/vol4/vocabulaireshabaswahili.html.
Professor Donatien Dibwe of the University of Lubumbashi kindly provided the following information: Kipalo inatokea ku luga ya bemba. "Kipala" mu luga ya kibemba ni kusema "être pris au hasard pour des travaux forcés" (in the Bemba language "kipala" means: being picked up at random for forced labor). See also the Vocabulaire, with a note on recruiters: http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/vol4/vocabulaireshabaswahili.html
46This was the popular name of the first mining site of the Union Minière ("behind Ruashi township), officially the Mine d’etoile. On Kalukuluku see the Vocabulaire: http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/vol4/vocabulaireshabaswahili.html
47 In my question and in Kisimba’s response we speak of kabila moya, one ethnic group or the same ethnic group. The latter doesn’t make sense unless, the nduku, brother, mentioned a few lines earlier was meant in the larger sense of companion, friend.
48 When Kisimba said about a Tshokwe yee hapana kusema, he does not speak, he himself used a pidgin form, an example of "bad Swahili" (but current in Shaba Swahili).
49 Kisimba said baliingisha, lit. they caused to enter. Historically it would be more accurate to say they promoted or contributed to the spread of Swahili in the North. The language had already been established by Swahili traders and colonists.
50The standard Swahili dictionary has siri, secret. Msirini could be "in a secret place." In a short vocabulary from the Comoros Islands I found it translated as "at the Mosque." http://missngazidjaland.skyrock.com/3.htmls
51 This is what I hear on the recording but I have been unable to identify the expression.
52 The Union Minière/Gécamines company journal, see also: http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/mwanashabaApril1958letters.html
53 I had on my mind a conversation recorded a week before this one with Kalundi and J. Matafari, the retired Swahili editor of Mwana Shaba (see the Text One in this volume of Archives of Popular Swahili).
54 Again, this is what I hear on the recording and cannot identify. The context suggest that Kisimba refers to some kind of consultation.
55 See note 39 above and the conversation with Matarfari and Kalundi in this volume.
56 Sarufi, grammar, was also the title of a widely used text book published by the White Fathers; see the conversation with Matafari and Kalundi in this volume.


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© Johannes Fabian
The URL of this page is: http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/vol11/swahiliremembered2.html
Deposited at APS: 19 February 2009