to the LPCA home page Archives of Popular Swahili logo

ISSN: 1570-0178

Volume 11, Issue 2 (19 February 2009)



to the APS home page



Swahili remembered
Two conversations

transcribed , translated, and annotated by

Johannes Fabian

University of Amsterdam


address:
Amsterdam School for Social Science Research
University of Amsterdam
Kloveniersburgwal 48
1012 CX Amsterdam
The Netherlands


 

Introduction

Text One

Text Two

 

 

 

Text One

A conversation with Jean Matafari (M) and Kalundi Mango (K) recorded in Lubumbashi on May 27, 1985. The setting was the yard behind Matafari’s house on Avenue des Usines (close to the center of town). Baba Matafari had retired from his job at the Gécamines where he had worked as one of the two Swahili editors at the company paper Mwana Shaba (see Archives of Popular Swahili, Vol. 1). For further information, see the Introduction.


 

Swahili text and English translation

1. F: ... bale: ile bazungu mbili uko nataya: Monsieur Thiery:
M: Monsieur: Tillange...
F: [overlapping] Ti...
M: Tillange/
F: oui/
M: et Monsieur Thiery.
F: aha/ na bo: bo balikuwa sawa ba editeurs: ya journal moya kwa wazungu au Katanga/
K: au Katanga:
F: mu mwa
K: environ?
M: ah environ mille neuf cent cinquante six: njo ilitaya: mi nilikuwa commencer cinquante sept avec le journal d’entreprise/
F: aha/
M: Mwana Shaba/
F: cinquante sept mulianza na:
M: na journal d’entreprise/
F: Mwana Shaba/
M: Mwana Shaba/ et puis: bo balikuwa: ba: banatrouver maarticles yabo: kulikuwa ma: matravailleurs: ba: ya: macités yote ya société:
F: mm.
M: bana: pata: habari yabo:
F: mm/
M: banaandika ku: ku journal yetu:
F: mm/
M: shee tunatraduire mu Français: bana: angaria kama iko muzuri: kama itakuwa kibillet:
F: vile: habari ilifika mu Swahili ya: ya Shaba: ya...
M: ya kutoka ku masièges ya:
F: yote/
M: ya société eeh/
F: na mweye?
M: shee tunawekayo ... [overlapping]
F: mu Français ...?...
M: mm/
F: tena?
M: inakwenda ku wa: ya wazungu/ na ...?...
F: [overlapping] si muligeuza tena mu Swahili: bora? kipande na kipande?
M: eeh: kiisha/
F: ...?...
M: kiisha kama banakwenda angaria eh: kuko maneno ile bataitika
Woman: [interrupts] ...?...
M: iko na neno ile bo bataitika: asema inapashwa kuparaître:
F: eeh/
M: na ile batakatala: non: batafanya ao accord signé ya Français:
F: mm/
M: ao bata: weka un peu ma: manotes de la rédaction après/
F: ahah/
M: na bo sasa banaturudishia: si tunaweka:
F: mu...
M: ...Swahili propre sasa: kwa kuweka ku imprimerie: na kutuma majournal: ku: batravailleurs/
1. F: ...about those two Whites you named, M. Thiery...
M: M.Tillange.
F: [overlapping] T...
M: Tillange.
F: Yes.
M: And M. Thiery.
F: I see. They were something like editors at a journal for Whites1 in Katanga.
K: In Katanga.
F: What was the year, approximately?
M: Well, around 1956, that is when it got its name. I started out in 1957 with the company paper.
F: I see.
M: Mwana Shaba (lit. the child of copper).
F: In ’57 you began (working for)...
M: ... the company paper.
F: Mwana Shaba.
M: Mwana Shaba. They would find their articles (written by) workers they had in the settlements of the company.
F: Mm.
M: Their news were received...
F: Mm.
M: ... and written up in our paper.
F: Mm.
M: We made French translations, they checked whether they were good and going to make a news item.
F: So the way it was the news arrived in Shaba Swahili from..
M: the (different) branches...
F: All of them.
M: ...of the company, yes.
F: And what was your job?
M: We put it ... [overlapping]
F: into French ...?...
M: Mm.
F: And then?
M: It went to the Whites and...?...
F: [overlapping] Didn’t you then translate it into refined Swahili, piece by piece?
M: Yes, in the end.
F: ...?...
M: In the end the took a look at the wording to see whether they would accept it.
Woman: [interrupts] ...?...
M: If they found the text acceptable they said it should appear.
F: I see.
M: And (they said no) to what they did not find acceptable. They would approve the French (version).
F: Mm.
M: Or they would do some editing afterwards.
F: I see.
M: Then they returned it to us and we put it...
F: ...into...
M: ... correct Swahili so it could be go to the printer’s and the paper could be sent out to the workers.
2. F: et: nani alidik: eh: aliandika: eh: ma: mahabari ya: ya: ya makompund? balikuwa batravailleurs ao changachanga? ao... M: non: batravailleurs bo benyewe/
F: bo benyewe?
M: eeh/ na ku ba...
F: ...?...
M: benye kuyua...
F: hata ku barua?
M: eeh: tu banaandika ku papier yabo: banaandika voilà huku kwetu: siège par example Panda: par example ku Panda:
F: Kolwezi/
M: ao Kolwezi:
F: eh/
M: siye huku ku Kolwezi: tunaona: eeh: neno inatoka huku: iko hivi: iko hivi: iko hivi: iko hivi/
F: mm/
M: eeh: banatuma huku:
F: mm/
M: shee tunapokea ile: barua inatoka ku mu sièges:
F: mm/
M: tunatraduirayo en Français: tunaremettre ku bapatrons yetu/ bale bazungu minasema: bale banaangaria: sasa kama iko bien pour publier: ao kama hapana/
F: mm/
M: ingine banakatala: ingine banaitika/ kama banaitika: na bo: bana: eh: tengeneza namni gani ya ku: pitisha habari: banturudishia: shee tunaweka ku kiSwahili: bana...
F: alafu bale bazungu: habasemake: Swahili? hata/
M: banasema kiSwahili mais kiko kosa...
F: ...?..
M: makosa ndani/
F: ndiyo/
M: eeh/
F: sawa miye/
M: ah: sijue: mi siyazunguza na wee mu kiSwahili/
F: mi minasema:
M: mm/ yee uko nasema iko muzuri/
2. F: And who wrote the reports of news from the settlements? Was it the workers or the camp manager?
M: No, it was the workers themselves.
F: They themselves?
M: Yes. And in...
F: ...?..
M: Those who had some information...
F: Even just letters?
M: Yes. They wrote it on their own paper: Here in our place, for instance, at the Panda branch, for example, in Panda...
F: (Or) Kolwezi...
M: Or Kolwezi.
F: Yes.
M: Here in Kolwezi we saw something that happened here, this is how it went.
F: Mm.
M: Yes. They sent it here (to Lubumbashi).
F: Mm.
M: We received those letters that came from (different) branches.
F: Mm.
M: We translated them into French and submitted them to our bosses, the Whites I mentioned. They had a look at them and (decided) whether they could be published or not.
F: Mm.
M: Some they rejected, others they accepted. If they accepted (an item) they would work out how the news should be passed on, return it to us, and we put it into Swahili. They...
F: But those Whites did not speak any Swahili?
M: They spoke Swahili but (they made) mistakes...
F: ...?...
M: There were mistakes in it.
F: Yes.
M: Yes.
F: (Mistakes) like the ones I make.
M: Well, I don’t know, I haven’t talked (enough) with you in Swahili.
F: I am speaking it.
M: Mm. What you are speaking is good.
3. F: bon/ ile: barua/ asema banatupa ...?... c’est perdu/
M: aha/
F: hakuna na maarchives: ao...
M: hapana/
F: hapana/
M: mm mm/
F: ile ilipoteza/
M: mm/
F: yote/ hapa sasa mu rédaction: beko na archives?
M: eeh rédaction na: kwiko maarchives ya majournal/
F: ya majournal/
M: eh: majournaux: njo iko...
F: série complète?
M: mm/
F: beko naye/
M: mm/
F: alafu correspondance?
M: correspondance: mm: non/ macorrespondances: très peu/ ile iko necessaire: banagarder: mais ce qui n’est pas necessaire...
3. F: Alright. About those letters, (I assume) they were thrown away ...?... (this material) is lost.
M: Yes.
F: It is not (preserved) in some archives, or...
M: No.
F: No.
M: Mm. Mm.
F: That material is lost.
M: Mm.
F: Everything. Right now, are there archives at the editor’s office?
M: Well, at the editor’s office there are the archives of the paper.
F: Of the paper.
M: Yes, of the papers. They exist.
F: A complete series (of the published issues)?
M: Mm.
F: So they have that.
M: Mm.
F: But what about correspondence?
M: Correspondence, mm. No. There is very little correspondence. Whatever has to be kept is kept but material that is not necessary...
4. F: aah/ bon/ ile wakati wee ulikuwa: kutumika wa: eh:
K: ile wakati bali: balikuchagu: chagula/
M: mm/
F: tumika ile kazi/
M: ku rédaction:
F: ulikuwa: kutumika kazi gani?
M: bon minakuwa nafanya makazi mingi: nilikuwa: eh....
F: ...?... tuanze: tuanza na carière yako: sawa mu uzungu/
M: [high pitched] uuuuh: iko mingi sana/
F: baba/
M: tangu mille neuf cent trente sept?
F: trente sept ulifika?
M: mm/
F: kutoka?
M: hapa...
K: cité/
F: hapa: Eli: Elisabethville?
M: mm/
F: c’est vrais?
M: oui oui/
K: oui/
F: na mi minawaza ni muntu wa: Kivu: ou...
M: hapana/
F: hapana?
M: mm/ mi na yee twiko paka hapa/
K: yee iko kule/
M: mm/
F: ...?...Ma: Marungu? baTabwa/
M: mm/
K: ...?... je suis un muTabwa/
M: mm/
K: yeye:
M: des: baSonge: de Kongolo...?...
K: baSonge de Kongolo/
F: ah bon/
M: mm/
F: Ngoy vile vile?
M: Ngoy de: Malemba Nkulu/
F: Malemba Nkulu: ah oui/
M: mm/
F: bon/ ulizalikwa za: mu: trente: non: ulizalikwa maka gani?
M: mu mille neuf cent vingt/
F: vingt/
M: mm/
F: donc:
K: mi: ni mukubwa kwako: mi ni mille neuf cent dix neuf/
F: mukubwa yako/
M: ah mukubwa: c’est: c’est rien ça/
F: [aside] non non/ haina maneno/ na:
M: c’est rien/
4. F: Alright. Fine. When you were working (there) had you been chosen to...
M: Mm.
F: ... do this work?
M: At the editor’s office.
F: What was the work you did (before)?
M: Well, I did many kinds of work, I was...
F: ...?... Let’s start with your career in the urban-industrial world.2
M: [high pitched] Ooooh, there were lots (of kinds of work I did).
F: Baba.3
M: Since 1937?
F: You arrived in ’37.
M: Mm.
F: From where?
M: From here.
K: From the township.
F: Here from Elisabethville?
M: Mm.
F: Is that true?
M: Yes yes.
F: And I thought this is someone from Kivu or...
M: No.
F: No?
M: Mm. Me and him, we are from this place.
F: ...?... (Not from) Marungu? (From) the Tabwa (ethnic group).
K: ...?... I am a Tabwa.4
M: (I come from) the Songe of Kongolo...?...
K: The Songe of Kongolo.
F: Ah, alright.
M: Mm.
F: Ngoy also?5
F: Ngoy is from Malemba Nkulu.
F: Malemba Nkulu. I see, yes.
M: Mm.
F: Alright. Your were born in thirty – what year were you born?
M: 1920.
F: Twenty.
M: Mm.
F: So...
K: So I am your senior. I (was born) in 1919.
M: Senior indeed, that’s nothing.
F: [aside] No, no, it doesn’t matter...6
M: That’s nothing.
5. F: tulisumbulia na baba: Kalundi hapa: juu ya: ile wakati: kwa utoto yako:
M: mm/
F: Swahili ilikuwa lugha: ya wantu bote? ao: muna: mulikutana tena malugha ingine: sawa tunasema langues véhiculaires?
M: oh/ hapa kulikuwa tu: kulikuwa tu Swahili njo ilikuwa batu kwa kutaka kusikilizana: kiSwahili/
F: mm/
M: eh: bantu mu kabila yabo balikuwa banasema kya kwabo/
F: kila...
M: lu:lugha yake ya kwabo/
F: ya kwabo/
M: na kama anaona muntu wasiyo kya kwabo: anamusemesha kupima kusema kiSwahili: mais qui est: ff: ya kuchakulachakula/
K: oui eko: eko changachanga/
M: mm/
F: eko changachanga/
M: mm/
F: na...
K: ...paka vile nilikuambia: tunasema kiSwahili: unipeko spoon/
M: mm/
K: alors si spoon c’est lupao/
M: mm/ lupao ile/
K: oui/
M: sababu tuliku: tulikuwa hapa: hapana mpaka bantu bako balifanya kazi...
5. F: We were talking with Baba Kalundi here about the time of your childhood...
M: Mm.
F: (And the question I had) Was Swahili the language of everyone? Or did you come across other languages (of the kind) we call vehicular languages?
M: Oh. Here it was just Swahili. Swahili was what people used when they wanted to communicate with each other.
F: Mm.
M: Within their ethnic group they spoke the language of their region.
F: Of their region.
M: And when one realized that a person had no command of his home language he would get him to talk by trying to speak Swahili, but it was hit and miss.7
K: Yes, it was a mishmash.
M: Mm.
F: It was a mishmash.
M: Mm.
F: And...
K: ...just as I told you before. In Swahili we said give me the spoon (using the English term).
M: Mm.
K: Whereas it isn’t spoon, it is lupao.8
M: Mm. It is lupao.
K: Yes.
M: Because we who lived here were not only workers (employed by the companies).9
6. F: ...baba yako alikuwa muntu wa kazi ya Gécamines?
M: ndiyo/
F: donc: ku wakati yake:
M: mm/
F: alini: alijiengager mu mwaka gani?
M: eeeh [searches] en mille neuf cent: vingt: deux/
F: vingt deux/
M: mille neuf cent vingt deux: yee/
F: ile wakati/
M: mm/
F: ku: nani: ku machapu: ku tshimbotelo: ku nani: usine/
M: mm/
F: balikuwa kusema seulement Swahili ao lugha ingine?
M: Swahili tu/ njo: eeh: lugha moya ya kutaka kusikilizana na bantu bote: hata muzungu: hata muntu mweusi/
F: ile la: lugha ingine sawa inaitwa: kiKabanga?
M: ah: ile: ilikuwa humu vilevile/
F: mu ville?
M: sababu: humu:
F: huku?
M: mm: mu makazi/
F: hata: hata mu makazi?
M: mm/ hata mu makazi sababu ku kazi kulikuwa: kulikuwa paka baBelges: kulikuwa na ba: baItaliens: kulikuwa ba: baRhodesiens:
K: ...?...
F: eheh
M: eh? na ba: batravailleurs bengine balikuwa natoka ku Rhodesiens: ba nya ?Flank par exemple: oui/
F: na bazungu banakuwa kusema: habaku: habasemake Swa: Swahili?
M: bo banasema kiSwahili kidogo mais banachanga na ile:
F: na ile
M: lugha ya kule/
F: ya kule/ peut-être Anglais? balisemaka?
M: ah oui/ hata Anglais/ batasema: na Anglais...
K: spoon ile...
M: à force...
K: ...knife/
F: ndiyo/
M: à force ya ku ba: batravailleurs: à force ya kusikia ile siku yote siku yote: kama unakamata: mutoto kidogo unamuambia: unamuonyesha kile iko lupao: leta eeh: leta supuni/
F: oui oui/
M: ah: supuni/
K: oui/
M: eh/ anakwenda kule basi/ à force ya kurépé: ya répétition: ile...
F: ...?...ile wakati mulitembea: ku utoto ya: mulitembea un peu mu ville: mulisikia wazungu wanasema: wanasema: wanasema/ ilikuwa Français or ilikuwa Anglais?
M: mais hapa attention: maneno ville yenyeye ilikuwa....
K: ...tulikuwa na baBelges mingi hapa/
M: oui/
K: baBelges njo balitu: balitudumu/
M: mm/ maneno: ville inyewe: sawasawa hii ville unaona/
F: ndiyo/
M: ile wakati ilikuwa:
K: kidogo/
M: kidogo sana/ kidogo eh?
F: si balikuwa na mabars: na:
M: mabars yabo/ yabo tu/
K: [overlapping] ...?...
M: ya bo benyewe kiisha kazi banakwenda kule: eh/
6. F: Was your father a worker employed by Gécamines10?
M: Yes.
F: So, at his time...
M: Mm.
F: What was the year when he got himself hired?
M: Let me see [searches]. In 1922.
F: Twenty-two.
M: 1922, in his case.
F: At that time.
M: Mm.
F: In the workshops, in the mine, in the factory.
M: Mm.
F: They only spoke Swahili, or was there another language?
M: Just Swahili. That was the only language if you wanted to communicate with every one, White or Black.
F: What about that other language, called kiKabanga?
M: Ah, that one was also (spoken) here.
F: In the town?
M: Because here...
F: In this place?
M: Mm, in work places.
F: Even in work places?
M: Mm. Even in work places because at work there were not only Belgians, there were also Italians, there were Rhodesians...
K: ...?...
F: I see.
M: Right? And among the workers some came from Rhodesia, those employed by ?Flank11, for example, yes.
F: And the Whites (from those other countries) did not speak Swahili?
M: They spoke a little Swahili but they mixed it with these...
F: With these...
M: ...languages from those other places.
F: Those other places. Perhaps English, was that spoken?
M: Ah, yes. Even English, they would speak English...
K: (Remember) that spoon...
M: Of course...
K: ... knife.
F: Yes.
M: Of course, (such words were used) especially among the workers when you heard them everyday. When you take a small child and tell him, you show him, this is a lupao, (but then you would say) eh, bring me a supuni.
F: Yes, yes.
M: Well now, supuni.
K: Yes.
M: Yes. He goes there (and gets the spoon). It comes from constant repetition...12
F: ...?... in those days, when you were children and would take strolls in town, did you listen to what the Whites spoke all the time? Was it French or English?
M: Now wait a minute, the town itself...
K: ... we had a lot of Belgians here.
M: Yes.
K: It was the Belgians who stayed with us (when the others left).
M: Mm. Fact is that the town itself as you see it now...
F: Yes.
M:... was at that time...
K: ... small.
M: Very small. Small, you understand?
F: Didn’t they have bars and....
M: (They had) their bars, reserved for them.
K: [overlapping] ...?...
M: They were reserved for them and that is where they went after work. Yes.
7. F: bon/ ulizalikwa mille neuf cent vingt/ mu nyumba: mulikuwa: kusema: ki: kiKabinda/ ao ile lugha..
M: nani: eh: mben: inchini/
F: inchini/ mama ule: non: mu nyumba/
M: eeh/
F: sawa...
K: ku nyumba mule ndani/
F: wazazi:
M: eeh/
K: mu nyumba c’est kinywa gani?
M: kwa ile kinywa tulikuwa tunasema?
K: ya kusema/
M: baba na mama banasema kya kwetu/
F: aah/
M: mm/
F: na: alafu: watoto:
M: na kiSwahili/
F: na batoto?
M: kiSwahili vilevile/
F: kiSwahili vilevile/
M: oui/
F: habasemake ma: kikwetu: mu: ku: kwa wazazi?
M: ah kilogo sana/
F: ...?... kilogo:
M: kilogo sana/
F: [to Kalundi] na kwa wee?
K: mi iko kiSwahili/
F: paka kiSwahili?
M: paka Swahili/
F:[to Kalundi] kiTabwa: unajua sasa?
K: kiTabwa ah nasikia tu/
M: mm/ voilà/
K: parce que minazaliwa hapa Elisabeth...
M: mm/ sasa mi hapana kuyua kusema kya: kwetu hapana/ nasikia tu: mais mi hapana kusikia/
F: [overlapping] ndiyo/ ndiyo/ minaona/
7. F: Fine. So you were born in 1920. At home you were speaking kiKabinda or the language...13
M: Well, the language spoken in the region.
F: (I didn’t mean) in the region but in the house.
M: Yes.
F: Like...
K: (He means) inside the house.
F: (With) the parents.
M: Yes.
K: What was the language spoken in the house?
M: This is about the language we were speaking?
K: (The language) of conversation.
M: Father and mother spoke the language of our region14...
F: I see.
M: Mm.
F: But with the children.
M: ...and Swahili.
F: And with the children?
M: Also Swahili.
F: Also Swahili.
M: Yes.
F: So (the children) would not speak the language of the region with the parents.
M: Ah, very little.
F: ...?... a little.
M: Very little.
F: [to Kalundi] And how was it in your case?
K: In may case it was Swahili.
F: Only Swahili?
M: Only Swahili.
F: [to Kalundi] Do you still know Tabwa?
K: I can understand Tabwa (but I don’t speak it).
M: Mm, you see?
K: Because I was born here in Elisabeth(ville).
M: Mm. Nowadays I can no longer speak the language of our home region. I can understand it but I don’t speak it.15
F: [overlapping] Yes. Yes, I see.
8. bon/ [pause] bon/ twendelee tu mbiombio sasa tu/ ulikamata kazi: ku Gécamines: trente sept/
M: mm/
F: bon/ ulikuwa dix sept: dix sept ans: ah: uko engagé kwa: kwa nani: kwa: kwa tout travail: kwa?
M: non/
F: ile yee: ya kwanza/
M: engagé kwa comme commis/
F: commis déjà?
M: en clerc d’abord eh?
F: clerc?
M: clerc/
F: ulifanya masomo: ulifwata masomo/
K: oui/
M: yee: na mi na yee/
K: ku Saint Boniface ici/
M: Saint Boniface eeh/
F: aah/ Saint Boniface:
M: mm/
F: kufika combien? à dix sept: c’est...
K: uliisha masomo mwaka gani?
M: mu: mu trente sept: wakati ile iko nakuwa: kuliingia épidémie/
K: trente sept/
F: mulikuwa na épidémie?
M: huku? ah oui/ oui oui/
F: ya nani?
K: ya nani? ya ...?...
M: maladie/
F: oui mais: na maladie gani?
K: petite...
M: ah si ile balisema: balikuwa naita asema kaputula: mais:
K: attention/...?...
M: ile: nani:
K: mille neuf cent dix sept: mille neuf cent et vingt: kaputula inaisha/
M: ah: oui:
F: mille neuf cent dix huit: ilikuwa: ilikuwa: ya kaputula?
M: [overlapping] ili: ilikuwa huyu baliita nani: [pauses] hapana kaputula mais: enfin: nani: mmm: hapana fièvre: hapana nani: quoi encore? enfin kulikuwa épidémie/
F: [overlapping] ...?.. bon/ ile mwaka uli: ulimaliza masomo: mu: mu classe ga: mu: mu: niveau gani?
K: uli...
M: ni: mi: miye? candidat commis/ tuliisha shee pale:
K:..?...
M: tulikwenda ku moyenne:
K: uliisha mu deuxième: troisième?
M: eh: deuxième/
K: deuxième du moyen/
M: pamoya na baPatrick: eh: ule mulâtre/ wa baba:
K: ah oui: baba ...?...
M: eheh/
K: ahah/ Patrick/
M: mm/
K: oui/
M: Scott/
K: Patrick Scott/
F: Patrick Scott?
K: oui/ il est encore ...?...
F: ah oui?
K: oui/
F: ba: balikuwa mulâtres?
K: balikuwa mulâtres/
M: mm/
K: balikuwa mulâtres/
F: mais: bon/ bali: ulianza kazi ya clerc:
M: oui/
F: hapa mu Lubumbashi? ...?...
M: hapa mu Lubumbashi/
K: Union Minière/
M: mm/ Union Minière/
F: bon/ uliendelea: kwake...
M: kutumika miaka na miaka kutumika:
F: paka...
M: kurenouveller contrat ya trois ans/
F: mm/ paka mu kazi ya: ya clerc/
M: eeh ya clerc/
8. Fine [pause]. Fine. Let’s go on quickly now. You took up work at the Gécamines in ’37.
M: Mm.
F: Alright. You were sixteen. At sixteen, you were hired as an unskilled laborer, or?
M: No.
F: [I thought] this is (usually) the first job.
M: I was hired as a commis (office worker).
F: As a commis already?
M: First as a clerk, right?
F: A clerk?
M: A clerk.
F: (Because) you finished school. You had gone to school.
K: Yes.
M: He (also), both of us.
K: At Saint Boniface here.
M: Saint Boniface, yes.
F: I see. Saint Boniface.
M: Mm.
F: How far did you get, at seventeen that was...
K: What was the year you graduated?
M: In ’37, that was the time when I – when the epidemic started.
K: ’37.
F: You had an epidemic then?
M: Here? Ah yes. Yes, yes.
F: What kind of?
K: It was – what was it called? The...?...
M: A disease.
F: Yes, but what kind of disease?
K: Small...
M: Ah, the one they were calling kaputula.16
K: Careful! ...?...
M: This – what was it called?
K: (That was) in 1917, in 1920 kaputula was over.
M: Ah, yes.
F: In 1918, that was kaputula?
M: [overlapping] It was the one they called [pauses], not kaputula but, well, what was it called, mm, not the fever, nor the one, what was it again? At any rate, it was an epidemic.
F: [overlapping] ...?... fine. The year when you finished school what class/grade were you in?
K: You were...
M: Me? I was candidat commis. When we finished (school)...17
K: ...?...
M: ...we went on to middle school.
K: What class did you finish? Second, third?
M: Well, second.
K: Second grade of middle school.
M: Together with Patrick, that mulatto. (The son) of Baba...
K: Ah, yes, Baba ...?...
M: Mm.
K: Yes.
M: Scott.
K: Patrick Scott.
F: Patrick Scott?
K: Yes. Is he still ...?...
F: Really?
K: Yes.
F: They were mulattoes?
K: They were mulattoes.
M: Mm.
K: They were mulattoes.
F: But, alright, you began to work as a clerk.
M: Yes.
F: Here in Lubumbashi? ...?...
M: Here in Lubumbashi.
K: (At the) Union Minière.
F: Fine. And you went on...
M: ... working, year after year, working.
F: Just...
M: (Always) renewing the three-year contract.
F: Mm. Working only as a clerk.
M: Yes, as a clerk.
9. F: bon/ sasa: kama unasumbulia Swahili na mi:
M: mm/
F: unatumia tu Swahili ya hapa/ ya Shaba/
M: ndiyo/
F: alafu: ku: kama unaandika: mi sisikie kintu/
M: ah: kama...
K: iko nguvu/
M: si: ndiyo/ sikia/
K: oui/
F: oui/
M: sikia/
F: oui/
M: kama unataka kuandika kiSwahili:
F: mm/
M: unataka kiSwahili na orthographe yake/
F: eeh/
M: mm?
F: eeh/
M: na kama minataka kuzungumuza na batu bengine hivi: natumia kiSwahili ya yee asikie upesi upesi/
F: ...?... ulifunda: ile Swahili:
M: mm?
F: ile Swahili bora/
M: mm/
F: ulifunda wapi?
M: nilifunda ku masomo/
F: ku masomo: [to Kalundi] sawa wee?
K: oui/
M: oui/ kujua...
F: njo ilikuwa Swahili ulifunda kule?
M: oui/
K: ...?..
M: na grammaire/
K: on commence par le Swahili/
M: na grammaire/
K: paka vile: eh...
F: na baprofesseurs? ba: balikuwa bapères ao banani?
M: kulikuwa bapères: kulikuwa ba: ba...
K: mwalimu:
M: bamwalimu:
K: bantu beusi/
M: bantu beusi/
F: bana...?... bitabu...?...
M: [overlapping] kulikuwa bitabu ya:
F: bitabu...
M: ya kiSwahili: na Français/
K:...?...
F: una: unakumbuka tena? ile bitabu: ya kiSwahili/
K: mais oui/ des grammaires/
M: oh: oui/ des gram: des grammaires ya...
F: sarufi: ya nani?
M: eh?
F: ile sarufi ya: ya: ya: monpères kule ku: kwenu/
K: lakini: lakini: haikuwa kiSwahili kabisa/
M: mm/
K: ilikuwa kiSwahili ya hapa/
F: ya hapa?
M: mm/
K: ya kiBemba:
M: ya hapa ile...
K: ile ya kiBemba/
F: hata mu: mu masomo?
K: hata mu masomo/
M: hata ku masomo: bana: fundisha ile/ beko na grammaire ku mukono/
K: oui/
F: ni kusema kama munas: mulisumbulia: mulisumbulia sawa: sawa vile...?...
M: ah oui/
F: bon/ mais mu kuandika: ilikuwa tu: sawa Swahili bora?
M: oui/
K: ndiyo/
F: mais: ile bitabu ya manuels?
M: mm/
F: grammaires: ao ki: mulikuwa naye: munakumbuka tena ma: ma...
K: jina ya ile bitabu?
F: oui/
M: mm: mm: mm:
F: [overlapping] ilitoka wapi?
M: mm: mm: mm: mm/
K: ah kutoka miye...
M: ilikuwa natoka: nazani: kipande ya ba: [interrupts himself] cet auteur Français quoi? non/
K: ou bien Baudouinville/
M: ou bien Baudouinville/
K: Baudouinville
M: oui/
K: c’est ce ...?...
M: ...?...
F: moya ao ku Albert: eh: ku Kalemie?
K: Kalemie: mais inatoka Baudouinville/
F: ya Pères Blancs/
M: mm/
K: Pères Blancs/
M: mm/
K: inatoka Baudouinville: hakuwe Kalemie/
M: mm/
F: si ulikuwa ao Sarufi ya: nani?
K: ...?... kama alikuwa kwa Monseigneur Roelens?
M: Monsei: oui/
F: Roelens?
K: Roelens/
M: sawa vile: Roelan: Roelens oui/
9. F: Fine. Now, when you speak Swahili with me.
M: Mm.
F: You are using local Swahili, (the Swahili) of Shaba.
M: Yes.
F: But when you write I don’t understand a thing.
M: Ah, when...
K: It is difficult.
M: It is not, well, yes. Listen.
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
M: Listen.
F: Yes.
M: If you want to write Swahili.
F: Mm.
M: You want a Swahili with its orthography.18
F: Yes.
M: Right?
F: Yes.
M: And when I want to chat with others then I use a Swahili the person should understand easily.
F: ...?... (so when) you learned that kind of Swahili.
M: Mm?
F: That refined Swahili.
M: Mm.
F: Where was that?
M: I learned it at school.
F: At school. [to Kalundi] Same as you?
K: Yes.
M: Yes. Knowing...
F: That was the Swahili you learned there?
M: Yes.
K: ...?...
M: And the grammar.
K: (At school) one starts with Swahili.
M: And the grammar.
K: Exactly, yes...
F: And the teachers? Where they missionaries or who were they?
M: There were missionaries (and) there were...
K: Teachers.
M: Teaches.
K: Black people.
M: Black people.
F: Did they...?... have books...?...?
M: [overlapping] There were books...
F: Books...
M: ... in/about Swahili and French.
K: ...?...
F: Do you still remember (them)? Those books about Swahili.
K: Of course. Grammars.
M: Oh, yes. Grammars of...
F: (Called) Sarufi (grammar), published by whom?
M: What to you mean?
F: The Sarufi (published by) the Fathers in you home region.19
K: But it was not really (refined) Swahili.
M: No.
K: It was local Swahili.
F: Local?
M: Mm.
K: (Influenced) by Bemba.
M: This local kind...
K: (Influenced) by Bemba.
F: Even at school?
K: Even at school.
M: Even at school they taught it. They had a grammar at hand.
K: Yes.
F: In other words, at school you talked like ...?...
M: Ah, yes.
F: Alright. But when it came to writing it was something like refined Swahili.
M: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: But what about those books that served as manuals?
M: Mm.
F: Or the grammars you had, do you remember the...
K: ...the names of those books?
F: Yes.
M: Mm, mm, mm.
F: [overlapping) Or where they came out?
M: Mm, mm, mm, mm.
K: Well, about where they came out I...
M: I think they came out, in the region of [interrupts himself] (you mean) that French author? Or not?
K: Or it was at Baudouinville.
M: Or at Baudouinville.
K: Baudouinville.
M: Yes.
K: It was this ...?...
M: ...?...
F: Was there not one that came out in Albert(ville), or rather Kalemie?
K: Kalemie. But it was published in Baudouinville.
F: By the White Fathers.
M: Mm.
K: The White Fathers.
M: Mm.
K: It was Baudouinville where it came out, not Kalemie.
M: Mm.
F: Was it not the Sarufi by -- who was it again?
K: ...?... perhaps it was by Monseigneur Roelens?
M: Monsei(gneur), yes.
F: Roelens?
K: Roelens.
M: Something like Roelan, Roelens, yes.
10. F: aah/ njo yote: kumbe: hau: tembee là: ao: ao kufika ku fasi ya maSwahili: ya kufunda Swahili vizuri: hata?
K: hapana/ hapana/
M: wapi/ kwiko waSwahili ingine ya Arabisés/
F: eeh/
M: ile hapana Swahili muzuri enfin/
K: [laughing] alafu Swahili muzuri sababu ...?...ni yo?
M: [chuckles] mm: mm: mm/
K: mi nilikala Albertville/
F: oui/
K: minatoka Elisabethville: minakwenda Kalemie/
F: eeh/
K: Kalemie minakutana kiSwahili: bora: kuzidi kiSwahili ya Lubumbashi/
M: mm/
F: hata: kama una: unasoma: sawa wee unasoma maarticles waliwa: waliyogeuza ku:
M: mm/
F: una: unasikia yote yote yote/
K: minasikia yote/
M: mm/
K: nasikia yote/
M: ah oui mais ni na magumu/
K: ule magumu?
M: mm/ iko na...?...
F: uko na kitabu kimoya kile kya...
M: ah oui na bitabu mingi...
F: kama: kama ...?...
M: kama uli...?...
F: ndiyo/
M: oui/ kama ulikuya na ile kitabu moya:
F: ...ile Swahili minafunda mi mwenyewe ilikuwa ku Swahili ya hapa/
K: hayue kitabu/
M: mm/ kama ulikuwa na kitabu ile moya: ya kuonyesha:
F: ndiyo: niko na bitabu: eh?
M: kwiko na ingine nilifanya traduction: bu: eeh: na mmm: Monsieur Clément: professeur wa ku université de Liége:
F: Clément?
M: Clément/
F: Clément/
M: kufanya mi na yee tulifanya kitabu/
F: Natalis?
M: c’est ça/ Natalis/
F: Natalis/
M: grand eh? eko grand comme vous: mais...
F: oui/
M: oui/
F: ...?...quoi/
M: je ne sais pas si ils est encore...
F: na wee ulimusaidia? kwa: kawa ile: kitabu aliandika?
M: oui/
F: ahah/
M: tulikuwa mi na yee/
F: aha/
M: na Ngoy/
F: na Ngoy vile vile?
M: mm/
10. F: I see. So that was all. You did not travel to a Swahili region in order to learn Swahili properly? Nothing like that?
K: No, no.
M: No way. There are some Swahili people, (called) Arabisés.
F: Yes.
M: (But) the Swahili (they speak) is not really good.
K: [laughing] But (it was) good Swahili because...?... is that it?
M: [chuckles] Mm, mm, mm.20
K: I used to live in Albertville (Kalemie).
M: I travelled from Elisabethville to Kalemie.
F: I see.
K: In Kalemie I found a Swahili that was much more refined than the Swahili of Lubumbashi.
M: Mm.
F: So, even when your read articles that were translated into (refined) Swahili...
M: Mm.
F: You understand everything.
K: I understand everything.
M: Well, yes, but there are difficult parts.
K: What were they?
M: Mm. There are ...?..
F: You still have one of those books?
M: Ah yes, I have many books...
F: If, if...?...
M: If you would ...?...
F: Yes.
M: Yes. If you had one of those books (I would like to see it).
F: The Swahili I myself learned was the local Swahili.
K: He doesn’t know the book.
M: Mm. If you had this one book to show (me).
F: Yes, I have books, right?
M: I have one for which I made translations, it was for, mm, M. Clément, a professor at the University of Liége.
F: Clément?
M: Clément.
F: Clément. I did this book together with him.
F: (Was it) Natalis?
M: That’s it, Natalis.
F: Natalis.
M: A tall person, right? He was as tall as you, but...
F: Yes.
M: Yes.
F: ...?...
M: I don’t know whether he is still (alive)...
F: And you helped him with this book he wrote?
M: Yes.
F: I see.
M: It was me and him.
F: I see.
M: And Ngoy.
F: And Ngoy also?
M: Mm.21
11. F: ile minashangaa/ muko na lugha mbili/ moya ya kwa kusema: moya ya kuandika/
K: ah inaachana ...?...
M: [overlapping] inaachana/
F: oh: pas tellement eh? pas tellement/
K: miko na: mi kiSwahili nasema pale...?... kama minakunjia kiSwahili:
M: mm/
K: hautasikia/
M: mm/
F: aah non: ita: itakuwa nguvu/
K: mi niko na kiSwahili ya hapa/
M: oui/ sababu kama tunataka ku: kuandika ya kuandika:
F: oui/
M: il faut construire maintenant/ eh?
F: oui oui/
M: construire des phrases/
F: oui oui/
M: alors là: eh? unasikia tunaingia mu: ile: ungine ya kusikia: inafaa: ah: arudie nyuma: ende mbele: arudie: njo: ah oui/ banasema ...?...
K: kama minaandika kiSwahili yangu muntu ya hapa:
M: mm/
K: hatasikia: hawezi kusikia/
M: mm/
F: hawezi kusikia?
M: mm/
K: hatasikia: hawezi kusikia/
M: eeh/
F: wee unatosha ile Swahili wapi?
M: mi? [chuckles]
K: ile Swahili...
M: iko ya ile contraire/
K: maneno minatembea/
M: mm/
F: oui/
K: ile alikuwa kuikala hapa/
M: mm/
F: ah bon/
K: quinze ans/
F: bon/ ah voilà/
K: kiSwahili ya Elisabethville hapana kiSwahili ya Kalemie/
M: wapi/ hapana/
K: oui/
F: ule baba:
M: mm/
F: aliikala tu/
K: yee: paka Elisabethville/
M: mi paka hapa/
F: sasa/ Swahili yake bora: muzuri vile: alifunda na ku wapi?
K: ah: pale ku masomo...
M: ...ku masomo:
F: ...?...
M: na bitabu/
K: na bitabu/
11. F: I find this intriguing. You have two languages. One to speak and one to write.
K: Ah, there is a difference...?...
M: [overlapping] There is a difference.
F: Oh, not really, right? Not really.
K: If I were to speak Swahili there ...?... I would adjust (my) Swahili.
M: Mm.
K: You wouldn’t understand it..
M: Mm.
F: Ah, no, it would be difficult.
K: (But) my Swahili is the local one.
M: Yes. Because when we want to write it properly...
F: Yes.
M: We must construct, right?
F: Yes, yes.
M: Construct phrases.
F: Yes, yes.
M: So there is the point, right? When we come to the point we made about understanding there has to be a constant back and forth (until you tell yourself) ah yes, that’s it.
K: When I write my Swahili a person from here...
M: Mm.
K: ... is not going to understand it. He cannot understand it.
M: Mm.
F: He cannot understand it?
M: Right.
F: Where do you get that kind of Swahili from?
M: Me? [chuckles]
K: That kind of Swahili...
M: It is the opposite of the other kind.22
K: (I can use the other kind) because I got around.
M: Mm.
F: Yes.
K: (Whereas) this one [Matafari] (always) lived here.
M: Mm.
F: Ah, yes.
K: (I was away) for fifteen years.23
F: Alright, that was (what made the difference).
K: The Swahili of Elisabethville is not the Swahili of Kalemie.
M: No way. No.
K: Yes.
F: This baba...
M: Mm.
F: ...just stayed (here).
K: He (lived) only in Elisabethville.
M: I only lived here.
F: Now then, where did he learn his good, refined Swahili?
K: Well, there at school...
M: ... at school.
F: ...?...
M: And from books.
K: And from books.
12. F: na bitabu vilevile/
M: eeh/
F: ulitumia/ pa: pa kufanya par exemple kama mulifanya ma: ma: traductions/
M: mm/
F: mulikuwa na bitabu ya kuangaria: na magrammaires:
M: oui/ kuko kama tunatafuta...
F: dictionnaire:
M: [overlapping] ... mot moya: enfin: quoi: Français inasema hivi: mais ile mot ya inacorrespondre ku:
F: ndiyo/
M: ku: ku mot gani?
F: eeh/
M: utaona angaria: mais kama tunajuger iko nguvu: tunasema non/ tunakumbuka muzuri: bon: mu Français banasema hivi: tunatafuta [with emphasis] sense/ sense ya ile: mot ya Français: tunatraduire: tunaweka mu kiSwahili/
F: ni vile/
M: mm/
F: eeet: mulikuwa na dictionnaire?
M: kulikuwa oui: mais: vocabulaire quoi/
F: vocabulaire:
M: ah [inhaling]/
F: unakumbuka tena: ka: kama ilikuwa:
M: ile kitabu ya vocabulaire: ilitoka ku France/
F: mu: munene hivi? [shows]
M: munene hivi: iko na carton mweusi/
F: Père Sacleux/
M: Sarc: oui/ Sac: Sacleux/ oui/
F: Sacleux/
M: oui/ ilitoka ku: ku France/
F: ku France: mu trente neuf/ trent neuf nazani/
M: mm/
F: na ilikuwa tena ya mamots:
M: ...?...
F: mamots Swahili: maArabes: ma:
M: c’est ça/ na Arabe eko ndani vilevile/
F: Sacleux/
M: mm/
F: ile mulitumia?
M: mm/ nilikuwa na ile...
F: na grammaire?
M: na grammaire: mais: grammaire: ilikuwa: mais sijue kule ilitoka muzuri muzuri/
F: muli...?...
M: sababu: eeh: bitabu ya magrammaires: bamwalimu balikuwa naye: choyo/ hapana kuleta hivi hivi/
K: hapana kuleta:
M: na yee anabakia naye: yee mwenyewe: eko anaonyesha ku:
K: anaandika ku tableau/
M: eh/
F: oui mais: ku Mwana Shaba?
M: mm/
F: ile wakati tu: ulitumika ku Mwana Shaba:
M: mm/
F: kugeuza/
K: iko na madictionnaires/
M: ah dictionnaire oui/ dictionnaire pour les mots Français mais:
F: eeh...?...
M: mavocabulaires: mm: vocabulaires [searching]: ma dictionnaires...
12. F: And also from books...
M: Yes.
F: ...you used, for instance, when you did translations.
M: Mm.
F: You had books to look into, and grammars.
M: Yes, when we looked for something there were (books).
F: A dictionary.
M: [overlapping] A certain word says this or that in French but what was the word corresponding to it in...
F: Yes.
M: What was the word?
F: I see.
M: You would see and look but when we found that it was difficult we would say, no let’s do it right). We would try to remember precisely, alright, this how it is said in French, and we would really try to get the meaning of this word in French, translate it and put it in Swahili.
F: That’s how it goes.
M: Mm.
F: And did you have a dictionary?
M: Yes, there was one but it was (more like) a vocabulary.
F: A vocabulary.
M: Yes.
F: Do you still remember whether it was...
M: This vocabulary had come out in France.
F: A big one, like that [showing]?
M: Big like that. It had dark covers.
F: (The one by) Père Sacleux.
M: Sarc, yes. Sac, Sacleux, yes.
F: Sacleux.
M: Yes. It had come out in France.
F: In France, in ’39. I think it was in ’39.24
M: Mm.
F: And it also had words...
M: ...?...
F: ...Swahili words and Arabic words...
M: That’s it. There were also Arabic words in it.
F: Sacleux.
M: Mm.
F: That was the one you used?
M: Mm, I had that one...
F: And a grammar?
M: And a grammar. But about the grammar, I don’t know where exactly it had come out.
F: Did you...?...
M: When it came to grammars, the teachers kept them for themselves.25 They would not give them (to you) just like that.
K: They would not give them out.
M: And the teacher would kip (the grammar) for himself, just show it on...
K: He would (just) write on the blackboard.
M: Yes.
F: Yes, but (how was it) at Mwana Shaba?
M: Mm.
F: At the time when you were working at Mwana Shaba.
M: Mm.
K: They had dictionaries.
M: Ah, a dictionary, yes. A dictionary for French words but...
F: I see ...?...
M: Vocabularies, mm, vocabularies [searching], dictionaries...
13. F: uliona: mbali mbali: enfin: zamani: mavocabulaires ingine: kwa bazungu? ba: bazungu:
K: ndiyo/
F: bazungu balifika hapa: ba: eeh...
K: ...?... cinquante deux/
F: oui/
K: avec Monsieur Muller/ le petit qui était le commissaire de district/
M: c’est ça/
K: et puis le gouverneur: vice-gouverneur/
M: eeh/
K: Monsieur Muller/ Albert Muller aussi/
M: mm/
F: oui/
K: kwangu mi nilikuwa na kitabu moya: Français Allemand/
F: Français Allemand?
M: mm/
K: Français Allemand: Swahili/
F: Swahili?
K: oui/
M: ahah: ah/
K: mais ile wakati: ali: niaanganika/
M: mm/
F: eeeh?
K: kakitabu kwa brochure kizuri: kiSwahili bora/
M: mm/
F: oui oui/
K: kiSwahili bora kabisa/
F: mm/
M: mm/
K: Français: Allemand/ mais c’était pendant après la guerre de quarante quarante cinq là/
M: mm/
K: pour ...?....
M: mm/ enfin/
K: [claps his hands] ...?...baBelges/
F: oui/
M: mm/
K: ile wakati wazungu walikuwa kutembea manyumba/
M: mm/
K: wanakuya kwangu:
M: mm/
K: vers cinq heures:
M: oui/
F: kutembea manyumba?
K: ndiyo walikuwa...
M: mm/
K: wanavisiter manyumba ya: ya si baclercs/
M: mm/
F: ah oui/ pa kuona kama muko: muko: civilisés/
K: [overlapping] ...?...civilisés/
F: [laughs]
K: c’est ça/ [laughs] oui oui/ alors...
F: [coughing]
K: ...balikuwa ba...?... baliona ile kitabu/
M: mm/
F: eeh/
K: balibeba/
F: yee alibeba?
K: alibeba Monsieur Albert Muller/
M: ooh oui/
K: oui oui/
M: kama anaona ki: ki: tu: précieux vile?
F: oui oui/
M: anabeba/
K: uko Français: Swahili: Allemand:
M: mm/
K: alors les Allemans: c’était les enemis: non?
M: mm/
F: auteur: unakumbuka ...?...
K: non non: non/
M: non non non/ maauteurs ile: iko matata kubloquerayo ...?...
F: maneno nazani mina: minafahamu ile/
K: kakitabu kadogo hivi/
F: oui oui/ oui oui/
K: eh: vert: vert...
F: Auguste Verbeken/ jina yake/
K: attention/ pas Verbeken: qui était commissaire du district?
13. F: Did you see now and then, I mean in the old days, other vocabularies (authored) by Whites? The Whites ....
K: Yes.
F: The Whites arrived here, well...
K: ...?... in ’52.
F: Yes.
K: With Monsieur Muller, the short one who was the District Commissioner.
M: That’s it.
K: And then (he became) governor, (or rather) vice-governor.26
M: Yes.
K: Monsieur Muller, Albert Muller.
M: Mm.
F: Yes.
K: At home I had a book, French-German.
F: French-German?
M: Mm.
K: French-German-Swahili.
F: Swahili?
K: Yes.
M: Ah, well.
K: But I was in trouble then.
M: Mm.
F: Really?
K: It was a booklet, a nice brochure with refined Swahili.
M: Mm.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Really refined Swahili.
F: Mm.
M: Mm.
K: French-German. But that was in the time after the war of 40-45.
M: Mm.
K: [claps his hands] ...?... (for) the Belgians.
F: Yes.
M: Mm.
K: At that time the Whites went through the houses.
M: Mm.
K: So they came to my place.
M: Mm.
K: Around five o’clock.
M: Yes
F: Go through the houses?27
K: Yes, they were....
M: Mm.
K: ...visiting our, the clerks’, houses.
M: Mm.
F: Ah yes. To see whether you were civilized.
K: [overlapping} ...?... civilized.
F: [laughs]
K: That’s it. [laughs] Yes, yes. So...
F: [coughing]
K: ...they (were looking around and) saw that book.
M: Mm.
F: I see.
K: They took it away.
F: He took it away?
K: It was Monsieur Albert Muller who took it.
M: Ooh yes.
K: Yes, yes.
M: (What to you expect) when he saw how precious it was?
F: Yes, yes.
M: He took it away.
K: There was French, Swahili, and German in it.
M: Mm.
K: Now the Germans, they were the enemies, no?
M: Mm.
F: Do you remember the author?
K: No, no way.
M: No, no way. It is a problem to learn and remember authors.
F: Because I think I know that one.
K: It was a small book.
F: Yes, yes. Yes, yes.
K: Yes, it was green, green...
F: Auguste Verbeken. That was his name.
K: Wait a minute, not the Verbeken who was district commissioner?
14. F: non non/ njo tu ulizo ingine tu/
K: ah oui/
F: Auguste Verbeken: ulimufahamu?
K: [to Matafari]...?... de Kabinda:
M: eeh/ K: commissaire de district ya kafupi/
M: mm/ mm mm mm/ oui eeh: de: de: de nom:
F: oui/
M: de nom/ pas: pas: en face comme ça non/
F: est-ce que: ni yee alikuwa kufundisha bazungu ku: ku: ku Gécamines? kis: kiSwahili?
M: oui/
K: bazungu:
M: yee sawa alifanya na kitabu moya ya vocabulaire...
K: Verbeken: oui...
M: oui: Verbeken oui/ eeh:
F: Petit Cours/
M: Petit oui: eh: Petit Cours: oui en: en: avec le carton: brune ou: brun ou:
F: oui oui oui/
M: comme ça/
F: oui oui/ oui/ ile unaisha kuona/
M: oui/ naisha kuona ile kitabu ile/ vile banaandika...
F: c’est ça/
M: ...namna gani: yote ya kusikilizana...
F: c’est ça/
M: ...na boy: na nini/
F: [overlapping] sasa ...?... ile Swahili ya kitabu: unaona namna gani?
M: ah eko kiSwahili ki: hapana kiSwahili: mm: muzuri kabisa hapana/ ni kupermettre tu kwa kutaka muzungu asikilizane na boy yake/ [pauses] mm/
F: kusi: wasikilizane na nini? fanya hii...
K: sikilizane na kazi/
F: fanya: leta:
M: mm/
K: ....fanya: leta: kwenda: ona: ile:
M: mm/ kuko bengine banakamata mule mu kitabu: eh nawezao kuambia: ah sema: kama anataka kwenda ku Likasi: anaacha boy pale: atamuambia/ eh: boy eh: pikenini eh/
K: pikenini/
M: eh pikenini/
K: oui/
M: angaria: ngurube/ yee anaangaria/ pika muchele: kulya na nguruwe/
F: [laughs]
M: [laughs]
K: oui/
F: nani atakulya nini?
M: ah: eh: eh: boy: mais boy yake...
K: ...?...
M: ile ile: ile: le cochon/
F: oui oui/
M: eh il a: [chuckles] il a préparé...?...
K: ...?... wakati ule waBelges:
F: oui/
K: baboy:
M: mm/
K: kama muzungu eko anaita boy/ Albert:
M: mm/
K: Albert:
F: mm/
K: yee kule iko na: yee kule:
F: ndiyo/ wende wee tu/
K: yee kule iko anajibu: eh?
F: oui/
K: eko anaita Albert/ Albert: Albert/
F: oui/
K: yee boy kule ndani nyumba iko naita: ponoo/
F: ponoo?
K: ponoo iko anatu: iko: iko namutusi/ mais muzungu yee hapana kusikia ponoo iko kitu gani/
F: mi sisikie/
K: ponoo anamutukana: eh: bunji yake:
F: aaah/ [chuckles]
K: oui/ alors muzungu anazani ile boy anai: anaita mi na heshima/ anaréprondre mi na heshima/
F: [overlapping] na heshima/
K: kumbe anatukana yee/
F: oui/
K: alors bazungu baliona: c’était trop exaggeré/
F: oui oui/
K: c’est trop exaggeré/ alors njo banatafuta madictionnaires ya kuyua: kitu gani/ muzungu iko anaita ...?...Albert: présent bwana/ Albert: mi iko hapa bwana/
F: eh/
K: maneno kama anaita Albert: yee boy iko anamuuliza kapuni iko weee/
M: [laughs]
F:...?...
K: kapuli unaona c’est du kiBemba/
F: oui oui/
K: c’est English/
F: oui oui/
K: ah voilà/ [claps] c’est ça/
14. F: No, no. This is another question.28
K: Ah, alright.
F: Auguste Verbeken. Did you know him?
K: [to Matafari] (The one) from Kabinda.
M: Yes.
K: The district commissioner, the short one.
M: Mm. Mm, mm, mm, mm. Yes (I know him) by name.
F: Yes.
M: By name, (I never met him) face to face.
F: Was he the one who taught the Whites at Gécamines Swahili?
M: Yes.
K: The Whites.
M: He also wrote a book, something like a vocabulary...
K: Verbeken, yes. Right.
F: (Called) Petit Cours (A Short Course).
M: Petit, yes. Yes, Petit Course. Yes, a brown paperback.29
F: Yes, yes, yes.
M: (Something) like that.
F: Yes, yes. Yes. That one you have seen.
M: Yes. I have seen that book. It was written...
F: That’s it.
M: ...about everything (you needed) to communicate...
F: That’s it.
M: ... with your boy and what not.
F: [overlapping] Now, what is you opinion of the Swahili in this book?
M: Well, it is Swahili, but not a very refined Swahili. It was to help a White who wanted to communicate with his boy. [pauses] Mm.
F: Communicate about what? (Telling him) do this...
K: So they could understand each other in matters pertaining to work.
F: Do, bring.
M: Mm.
K: ... do, bring, go, see, that sort of thing.
M: Mm. Some took (phrases) from that book (and thought) eh, that way I can tell (him) – (for instance) when he wanted to go to Likasi he left the boy behind and would say to him, eh, boy, eh pikenini.30
K: Pikenini.
M: Yes, pikenini.
K: Yes.
M: Watch the pig. He looks. Boil the rice, eat with the pig.
F: [laughs]
M: [laughs]
K: Yes.
F: Who is going to eat what?
M: Ah, yes. Well, the boy. But this boy of his...
K: ...?...
M: ...(is going to eat) that pig.
F: Yes, yes.
M: Well, he prepared it (after all)....?..
K: ...?... (that was how it went) at the time, with the Belgians...
F: Yes.
K: ...and their servants (lit. the boys).
M: Mm.
K: The White would call for his boy: Albert!
M: Mm.
K: Albert!
F: Mm.
K: He (the White) is there and the other one (the boy) is over there.
F: Yes, go on.
K: The one over there answers, right?
F: Yes.
K: So he keeps calling: Albert, Albert, Albert!
F: Yes.
K: He, the boy, calls back from inside the house: ponoo31
F: Ponoo?
K: Ponoo, which means that he is insulting him. But the White does not understand what that is, a ponoo.
F: I don’t understand it (either).
K: (Calling him) ponoo means that he insults him, (calling him) bare-assed (lit. speaking of his nakedness32).
F: I see. [chuckles]
K: Yes. While the White thinks the boy calls me politely, he answers me politely.
F: [overlapping] Politely.
K: Whereas actually he insults him.
F: Yes.
K: So the Whites realized, this was too much.
F: Yes, yes.
K: That’s too much. That was why they would search the dictionaries to find out what was what. The White calls....Albert! who (should answer) At your orders, Bwana. Albert! I am here, Bwana.
F: Yes.
K: Because when he called Albert the boy would ask him kapuni, (that is) in a manner that was really disrespectful.33
M: [laughs]
F: ...?...
K: You see, kapuni is Bemba.
F: Yes, yes.
K: It is English.34
F: Yes, yes.
K: So there it is [claps], that’s it.35
15. F: muliona: muliona bitabu bingine? na ile namna ya sawa Verbeken?
M: oui/ oui oui/
F: bazungu: unakumbuka wakati ...?...
M: balikuwa nayo: kuko ingine kitabu kidoogo hivi: kya Français kiSwahili: édité par qui?
F: mm/ jina ya muzungu moya: Mélignon/ unafahamu? unakumbuka yee?
K: muntu ya chapu?
F: non non: zamani/ muntu muzungu/
M: alikuwa natumika wapi?
F: nazani mu: mu Jadotville/ ile wakati/
M: ...?...
F: na yee aliandika kitabu moya: muzuri sana juu ya Swahili/ Mélignon/ haufahamu?
M: ts: non/
F: non/
M: siyue wakati iko ku Likasi: wakati mi: niko paka hapa mi/ weka na ancien wa Likasi/
F: mulikutana na wazungu wenye kusema Swahili: [pause] mbele: turudie/ sawa: hata ule wakati: ya zamani/ uliona: sema tu wazi wazi sasa/ [claps twice]
M: mm/
F: bon: on est entre nous hapa/
K: oui/
F: namna ya kusema kwa wazungu/ wee muliona namna gani?
K: kusula kiSwahili?
F: oui/
M: ah/ beko banachanga na ton ya kikwabo ya Français/
K: ndiyo
M: mm/
K: sawa wazungu alikuwa c’est kiSwahili: ile ya baFlamands: ingine kofordege: et puis: balisema kuya hapa: kofordege: nom de Dieu:
F: oui/
K: oui/ ilikuwa banachanga na kiFransa kidogo na kiSwahili: kiSwahili ya ovyoovyo/ [claps]
M: yo yo hii/
F: hamukutana muzungu hata moya: mwenye kusema sawa mi: ao sawa wengine?
K: non/
M: hapana/
K: minayua: ile Monsieur...
M: ... paka ku bamonpères eh?
K: bamonpères/
F: ku bamonpères:
M: bapères/ paka bapères njo:
F: bapères/
M: njo:
F: sema/
M: kulikuwa iko natoka...
F: kwa wazungu wa kazi?
M: oh hapana/
K: non/ lakini muzungu moya: Monsier Thonnet/
M: ah oui: alikuwaka:
K: ule commerçant/ iko Thonnet/ Thonnet/ yee anasema kiSwahili: anasema kiBemba/
F: c’est vrai?
K: ndiyo/ kiSwahili ya bucommerçant eh?
F: ali: alikomea hapa?
K: ule alikomea hapa Elisabethville/
M: mm/
F: eeh/
K: Monsieur Thonnet/
M: mm/
K: tena ni alikuwa sema mingi Kamuchacha/ Kamuchacha iko bwana Granat/
M: bwana Granat oui/
F: Granat?
K: Granat/
F: eheh/
K: yee anasema kiSwahili ya: Elisabethville/
M: mm/
F: eeh/
K: njo wazungu ya zamani/ na Monsieur Staquet/
M: balifika hapa mu ma...
F: Staquet?
K: Staquet/
M: ...ma:
K: oui:
M: vingt trois: vingt: jusqu’à vingt cinq: tangu Etoile eh? tangu Etoile/
K: Etoile/
M: sababu ku Etoile njo kule balitaka kuweka ville/
K: ndiyo/
M: njo kule balitaka kuwa Elisabethville: mais: Banque du: du Congo: si alianzia pale?
K: eeh ndiyo/
M: pale ku: Etoile/
15. F: Have you seen other books of them same kind as Verbeken’s?
M: Yes. Yes, yes.
F: (Used by) Whites. Do you remember the time when ...?...
M: They had them. There was another book, this small one, French-Swahili, published by whom?
F: Mm. Do you know the name of a certain White, Mélignon36. Do you know it? Do you remember him?
K: Someone who worked in the factory?
F: No, no. It was long ago. A White.
M: Where did he work?
F: I think in Jadotville, at the time.
M: ...?...
F: He also wrote a book about Swahili, a very good one. Mélignon. You don’t know him?
M: Well, no.
F: No.
M: I don’t know, at the time when he was in Likasi (Jadotville) I was here. Put (your question) to an old-timer from Likasi.
F: Did you meet Whites who were able to speak Swahili, [pause] (but) first, let’s back up. (I am talking about how it was) it was in the old times. Did you (ever) see – just talk openly now [claps twice]
M: Mm.
F: Alright, we are among ourselves here.
K: Yes.
F: What is your opinion of the Whites’ way of speaking?
K: (How far they got in) mastering37 Swahili?
F: Yes.
M: Well, they would mix it with the intonation of their own language, French.
K: Yes.
M: Mm.
K: With the Whites there was (for instance) the Swahili of the Flemish. Some would (intersperse it with) kofordege and what not. They said, come here kofordege, nom de Dieu.38
F: Yes.
K: Yes. What happened was that they mixed French with a little Swahili, really bad Swahili. [claps]
M: Well, well, that’s what it was.
F: You never met a single White (in colonial times) who spoke (Swahili) as I or others do?
K: No.
M: No.
K: I know of this Monsieur...
M: ...except among the missionaries, right?
K: The missionaries.
F: Among the missionaries.
M: The missionaries. Only the missionaries, they...
F: The Missionaries.
M: They...
F: ...spoke (Swahili).
M: It happened that someone came from...
F: (But) among the Whites at work?
M: Oh no.
K: No. But there was one White, Monsieur Thonnet.
M: Ah yes, he was around....
K: There was hat trader, Thonnet. Thonnet. He spoke Swahili and Bemba.
F: Is that true?
K: Yes. (He spoke) the traders’ Swahili, you understand?
F: Did he grow up here?
K: That one grew up here in Elisabethville.
M: Mm.
F: I see.
K: Monsieur Thonnet.
M: Mm.
K: And then there was one who spoke a lot, Kamuchacha. Kamuchacha was (was the nickname for) Bwana Granat.
M: Bwana Granat, yes. F: Granat?
K: Granat.39
F: I see.
K: He spoke the Swahili of Elisabethville.
M: Mm.
F: Yes.
K: (And) there was (another) White old-timer, Monsieur Staquet.
M: They arrived here in...
F: Staquet?
K: Staquet.
M: .... in (the years)...
K: Yes.
M: Twenty-three, twenty, until twenty-five, starting when (there was work at) the Etoile mine. When the Etoile started.
K: The Etoile.
M: Because it was at the Etoile where they wanted to put the town.
K: Yes.
M: That was where they wanted Elisabethville for be but (it was not to happen). Didn’t the Banque du Congo open there?
K: Right, yes.
M: There at the Etoile.40
16. F: bon/ sans exception: sauf: bale bacommerçants: bantu ba mu ville: mais kule mwenu mu: mu kazi:
M: mm/
F: hata/
K: hata shee ku kazi: hakukuwa kiSwahili/
F: hata wachangachanga?
M: changachanga: njo kabisa ku Une: maneno tu mu ki: mufupi mufupi/ ya: ile kitabu/
F: si njo yee alipashwa kukata maneno? kusikia:
M: non: weko wa par intuition quoi: eeh: angaria kama wee ulikosa ...?...mais banasikia mais kwa kuisema muzuri hapana/ ah: piga: kwanza atapiga nani: ts: mm: procès verbal yake en Français/ unakwenda parquet: en Français/
F: en Français?
M: oui/
K: en Français/
F: jamais mu Swahili?
K: jamais jamais/
M: mm/
K: hata ku paruku maneno yote en Français/
M: mm/ en Français/
K: wee unasema na kiSwahili:
F: na bal: na baba balikuwa balifika kwake: ku nani: ku: ku palabrer: [aside] c’est mot tu gani?
K: kusamba/
F: kusambasamba: donc/
M: mm/
F: banasema banasema: murefu: murefu/ yee anasikia ao haisikie kintu?
K: [chuckles] hasikie kintu?
M: kidoko....
K: Albert...?...
M: iko moya moya eh?
F: eeh/
M: una bainterprètes yake beko banasema hapa/
F: ahah/
M: eeh?
F: ahah/
M: ile yee anasema: interprète anamwa: anamwambia pole pole: iko hivi: iko hivi/ njo mule muko na bubaya parce que ungine interprète eko contre vous:
F: ah oui/
M: atasema maneno ingine mm:
K: [chuckles]
16. F: Fine. With the only exception of those traders who lived in town (no White spoke Swahili). But how about at places where you worked?
M: Mm.
F: Not even there?
K: Not even where we worked, there was no one (who really spoke) Swahili.
F: No even the camp managers?
M: The camp managers, above all at the Uni(on Minière), (only) spoke it in short phrases, which the got from that book.41
F: But wasn’t the camp manager responsible for settling disputes? (He had) to understand...
M: No, they worked intuitively, what interested them was whether you had committted a fault ..?... They would listen but were not able to speak well. Ah, what he would do first was type his report in French. When you went to court it was French.
F: In French?
M: Yes.
K: In French.
F: Never in Swahili?
K: Never, never.
M: Mm.
K: Even at the native court42 all litigation was in French.
M: Mm. In French.
K: You would speak in Swahili.
F: And the men who appeared there to argue their cases, [aside] what is the word for that?
K: Kusamba (to argue).
F: Kusambasamba (to keep arguing). So...
M: Mm.
F: They would talk and talk at length and he (the judge or camp manager), he understood, or didn’t he understand a thing?
K: [chuckles] He didn’t understand a thing.
M: A little.
K: (Except a certain) Albert...?...
M: He was the only one, right?
F: Yes.
M: You would have your interpreters. They would speak (for you) there.
F: I see.
M: You understand?
F: I understand.
M: The interpreter would tell a person what he (should) say, (explaining to him) slowly, this is what it is about. That meant that you could be in a bad position if a certain interpreter would be against you.
F: Ah yes.
M: And he was going to argue a different case, mm.
K: [chuckles]
17. F: si mulipashwa ku: ko: ku: kukata bidomo kiloko ya interprète?
K: ile kizungu...
M: ... ah ile wakati haikuwa/
K: hapana utakula ...?...
M: hakukuwa/
F: ha: hakukuwa?
K: hakukuwa ile tu/
M: haikuwe/
F: hakukuwa namna?
K: haikuwa ile bitu/ hakukuwa corruption/
F: kweli?
K: kweli kabisa/
M: mm/ haikuwe/
K: hakukuwa corruption/
M: corruption...
K: iko paka kama soldat anakamata wee:
M: mm/
K: unalilia yee/ [performing, clapping hands like before chief] wee njo baba:
M: mm/
K: wee njo Mungu yangu: unihurimie/ wee njo baba: angarie niko na batoto ku nyumba unihurumie/
M: eeh/
K: alafu yee asema bon: attention/
M: eeh/
K: siku ingine: hapana kurudisha/
M: mm/
K: kama unarudisha: utakwenda bloku/
M: mm/
K: hakukuwa corruption/ iko paka unalia: unatubu: [clapping]
M: mm/
K: na uko pardon/
F: mais c’est humain eh? c’est humain/ bata:
K: oui oui/
F: batapima/
K: zamani hakukuwa: hapokuwa ile corruption/
M: hakukuwa corruption haikuwako/
K: haikuwako/
F: tena: ts: nilikuwa tena: [pauses] ao tu: tupumuzike kiloko?
K: tupumizike/
F: tunapumuzika kiloko/
[recording stopped]
17. F: So then you had to pay off the interpreter?
K: That is a White custom.
M:... ah, that did not happen in those days.
K: Wouldn’t you accept43...?...
M: It did not happen.
F: Come on, it did not happen?
K: That sort of thing just did not exist.
M: It didn’t exist.
F: Wasn’t there a way?
K: Those things did not exist. There was no corruption.
F: Truly?
K: Quite truly.
M: Mm. It did not exist.
K: There was no corruption.
M: (There was) corruption...
K: ...only when a soldier grabbed you.
M: Mm.
K: Then you would be wailing and imploring him [performing, clapping hands like as one does before a chief], you are my father.
M: Mm.
K: You are my God, have mercy on me. You are my father, look I have children at home, have mercy on me.
M: Yes.
K: So he would say, fine, but be careful (next time).
M: Yes.
K: Don’t make me come back another day.
M: Mm.
K: If you make me come back you are going to prison.
M: Mm.
K: There was no corruption. You would just wail and show remorse. [clapping]
M: Mm.
K: And you would get your pardon.
F: But it (bribery) is human, isn’t it? It is human. One is going to...
K: Yes, yes.
F: ...try.
K: In the old days it did not happen. This corruption did not exist.
M: It did not exist. There was no corruption.
K: It did not happen.
F: Next, well, I had (another question). [pauses] Or shall we take a short break?
K: Let’s rest.
F: We’ll take a short break.
[recording stopped]
18. F: donc ni: ni: ulizo tulisahabu nazani/ juu ya nini balichu: balikuchagula/ wee na Ngoy ...?... muli: si mulikuwa na batu bamingi?
M: aaah bon/ bon/ bon bon/ balituch: balichakula mbele miye:
F: eeh/
M: eeh? alafu baliniomba: nichakule: [talking aside, chasing someone away] allez/ allez allez allez/
F: fukuza ba...?... [pause]
M: kuchakula miye mbele:
F: eeh/
M: miye/ tunakwenda kufanya ile kazi ya: ya journal: ma: mbele mabrouillons: kuwa na Père moya: quoi Père? Franciscain ou ou [pauses] huku: kiisha baliniomba: nitafute muntu wa kunisaidia:
F: ahah/
M: ku kazi yangu ile...
F: kumbe Père: alikuwa ku: kusaidia vilevile?
M: Père? non/ Père alikuwa kule: alikuwa navérifier kiSwahili yangu kwa kuona kama kiko muzuri/
F: ahah/ haukumbuke jina yake?
M: non/ siyue: alikuwa ku Saint Boni huku/
F: Saint Boniface?
M: eheh/
F: kijana: muzee?
M: aaaah: anaisha: alikuwa naisha kukomea/
F: na fu: yee alifunda Swahili yako wapi? c’était alikuwa wa zamani?
M: aah: njo ile minasema:
F: eh/
M: nazani alitoka ku: ba Franciscains/
F: baFranciscains?
M: mm/
F: eheh/ baFranciscains/
M: mm/
F: bon/ oui/ mais: [pauses] tena: balikuwa: balichuk: ulisema: balinicha: chagula mi: kwanza/
M: eheh/
F: mais: juu ya nini balich: kuchagula: wee?
M: sababu balijua kama mi najua kusema kiSwahili/
F: bon: balijua namna gani?
M: siku yote tuko tunazungumuza nabo/
F: aah/
M: mm/
F: si balikuwa baclerc mingi balisema Swahili?
M: oui: oui mais ku mu ile groupe...
F: par chance?
M: mu ile groupe ya ba: ya mm: ya baclercs tulikuwa mule: mi nilikuwa numéro un/
[someone serves a drink]
F: ah: aksanti baba/ [claps]
M: mm/ muntu wa huruma humu/
K: saa ya dix huit la bas/ ...?... pombe ile/
Person serving: ...?...
M: mm/
F: sasa: minafanya nini?
K: ...?...
M: aaah/
F: ya ku: ouvrir/
M: [addressing the server?] bonjour: bonjour: oui/
K: ...tire bouchon/
M: tire bouchon: mais ...?... biko paka: K: bilulu/ tout tout/ kunywa bilulu/
M: [calling out] Saint Père/
Person from afar: ...?...
K: ...?... bilulu bule fung:
[recording stopped]
M: ... sers?
F: non non/ oui non/ sasa minapita/
K: [laughs]
M: [chuckles]
F: me souler? non/ ile:
K: haikusouler hapana? [laughs]
18. F: So, there is a question which, I think, we forgot. Why did they choose you and Ngoy (for this job)? Weren’t there many of you?
M: Aah, alright. Fine. Fine. First they chose me.
F: I see.
M: Right? But they asked me to choose...[talking aside, chasing someone away] go away, go away.
F: Make them go away...?.. [pause]
M: About choosing me first.
F: Yes.
M: It was me. This was how we went about doing that job at the paper: At first there was a missionary, a Franciscan, or [pauses], someone from here (who edited) the drafts. Then they asked me to look for someone to help me...
F: I see.
M: ...with my work.
F: So there was a missionary who also helped you?
M: The missionary? No, the missionary was there to check whether my Swahili was good.
F: I see. You don’t remember his name?
M: No. I don’t know, he was at Saint Boni(face) here.
F: Saint Boniface?
M: Yes.
F: Young, old?
M: Well, he was of a mature age.
F: And where had he learned his Swahili. Was he an old-timer?
M: Well, that’s what I am saying.
F: Yes.
M: I think belonged to the Franciscans.
F: The Franciscans?
M: Mm.
F: I see, the Franciscans.44
M: Mm.
F: Alright. Yes. But [pauses] as you said, you were chosen first.
M: Yes.
F: But why was it you they chose?
M: Because they knew I could speak Swahili.
F: Fine (but) how did they know this?
M: Every day we talked with them.
F: I see.
M: Mm.
F: Weren’t there many clerks who spoke Swahili?
M: Yes, but within that group...
F: (Or was it just) chance?
M: Within that group of clerks we had there I was number one.
[someone serves a drink]
F: Thank you, baba. [claps]
M: Mm. Here is a man of mercy.
K: At six o’clock ....?.... that beer.
Person serving: ...?...
M: Mm.
F: Now what am I going to do?
K: ...?...
M: Aah.
F: Something to open (the bottle) with.
M: [addressing the server?] Good day. Good Day, yes.
K: A bottle opener...
M: A bottle opener is there but...?... (we just drink)...
K: From the bottle, all of it. Drinking from the bottle.
M: [calling out] Holy Father?
Person from afar: ...?...
K: ...?... from the bottle...?...
[recording stopped]
M: I serve?
F: No, no. Yes. No, now I pass.
K: [laughs]
M: [chuckles]
F: Getting drunk? No, that...
K: You are not going to get drunk? [laughs] 45
19. M: mm/ [chuckles] bon: yee iko ile/ sababu gani balinichagua mi?
F: eheh/
M: sababu: unaona: mi nilifwata masomo yangu hapa/
K: mm: c’est ça/
F: oui/
M: hapa: nafwata masomo yangu:
F: eh/
M: na: na: nasema kiSwahili/
F: eeh/
M: mm?
F: oui/
M: nasema kiSwahili/
F: oui/
M: tandis que bale baclercs: balikuwa pamoya na mi ku bureau: balikuwa baclercs beko natoka
mbali: sawa sawa ku baKasai: eh: ku...
F: aaaah: sasa mina: minasikia/
M: hapana yua kiSwahili muzuri/
F: kumbe: wee ulikuwa muntu wa:
M: ah mi niko wa hapa/
F: na: na ile wakati habakuwa bamingi/
M: ...?...
F: wenye kuwa pa hapa/
M: mm/
F: non/
M: mm/
F: la majorité...
M: ...ku: ku bureau yangu kule nilikuwa:
F: oui/
M: hakukuwa bamingi/
F: hakukuwa bamingi/
M: hapana/
F: sasa minasi...
M: hali yabo balikuwa paka mu gouvernement humu/
K: moi j’étais dans le gourvernement/
M: dans le gouvernement/
F: oui/
M: eheh/ mi mu Union Minière/
19. M: Mm.[chuckles] Alright, that’s that. (But the question was) why did they choose me?
F: Right.
M: It was because, you see, I went to school here.
K: Mm, that’s it.
F: Yes.
M: It was here that I went to school.
F: Yes.
M: And (that is why) I speak Swahili.
F: I see.
M: You understand?
F: Yes.
M: I speak Swahili.
F: Yes.
M: Whereas the clerks I worked with at the office, they came from far away, for instance, (they were hired) from among people from the Kasai and from....
F: Aaah, now I understand.
M: They did not know Swahili well.
F: So, you were a person from...
M: Ah, I come from this place.
F: And there were not many (of them) in those days.
M: ...?...
F: People who came from this place.
M: Mm.
F: No.
M: Mm.
F: The majority...
M: ... at my office where I worked.
F: Yes.
M: There weren’t many.
F: There weren’t many.
M: No.
F: Now I...
M: Usually such people would work only in the local government offices.
K: I was with the government.
M: With the government.
F: Yes.
M: Yes. I was with the Union Minière.
20. F: oui/ oui minaona: ...?... balikuwa recruter: balikuwa na ba...
M: balirecruter bale habasikie kiSwahili: inafaa kufundisha na ku: fanya masignes/ mikono kwa kutaka sikie...
F: ...mu trente sept ulikutana tena mara ingine: baNyasaland: ou?
M: oui/ balikuwa banatumika/
F: mu kazi?
M: oui oui oui/
F: na bo balisema Swahili vilevile?
M: banasema Swahili yabo mmm: mubaya kabisa/
F: mubaya kabisa/
M: mm/
F: Anglais?
M: oui/ bo paka Anglais na: Swahili yabo: pamoya na ile: kiKabanga:
K: kiKabanga/ kiNdebele:
M: kiNdebele: kiKabanga:
F: eeh/
M: mm/
F: na balikuwa ku: nani: kuoa hii: hapa: balioa ba: babibi ya kwabo: ao?
K: balikuwa bengine banakuwa na bibi ya kwabo:
M: [clears his throat] ba: baNyasaland oui/ mais balirecructer: balikuwa banabaleta kwanza mbele bule/
F: mm/ ma: pas...
M: ... pasipo...?...
F: [overlapping] kuikala ku manyumba: balikuwa na fasi yabo? à part? mpembeni: non?
M: ilikuwa kama nyumba ile murefu ya bacélibataires/
F: ah bacélibataires/
M: mm/
F: jina yake ya ile nyumba ya balis: bacélibataires?
K: bambaraka/
F: no: ilikuwa jina spécial moya/
K: hapana/ jina ya leo?
F: no no/ ya zamani/
K: bo muikala bule?
F: oui oui/ sema/
K: makala bule/ [repeats slowly] bamuikala bule/
F: mu...
M: eeh/
F: bamuikala?
K: bamuikala bule/
F: aah/ donc: mwenye kuikala bule/
K: bule: il n’a pas de femme/ ina: haina: bien/
M: mm/
F: aah voilà/ parce que maintenant: on: on: on: on dit ça: pour insulter quelqu’un/
K: oui/
F: muikala bule/
K: oui/ muikala bule inakuwa: inakuwa sawa tusi/
M: mm/
F: eh?
K: inakuwa sawa kutukana yee/
F: c’est ça/
K: ndiyo/
M: mm/
F: hapa sasa tena?
K: hapa sasa/
M: eheh/
F: muikala bule/
M: eheh/
20. F: Yes, I see...?... they used to recruit among the...
M: They did their recruiting among people who did not understand Swahili. They had to be taught. One had to use signs and gestures if he wanted them to understand...
F: ... in thirty-seven you would also find people from Nyasaland, or?
M: Yes. They worked (here)..
F: At (your) place of work?
M: Yes. Yes. Yes.
F: And did they also speak Swahili?
M: They spoke their Swahili, mm, a very bad one.
F: A very bad one.
M: Mm.
F: (How about) English?
M: Yes, they only spoke English and their Swahili, together with kiKabanga.
K: KiKabanga, Ndebele.
M: Ndebele, kiKabanga.
F: I see.
M: Mm.
F: And they were married to women from their own country, or?
M: [clears his throat] People from Nyasaland, yes. But when they recruited (them) they first brought them over without (families).
F: Mm. With(out)...
M: ....without...?...
F: [overlapping] (About) the quarters where they lived, did they have their own place apart or not?
M: There were these large houses for the bachelors.
F: Ah, the bachelors.
M: Mm.
F: What was the name for those bachelor quarters?
K: Bachelors.46
F: No, there was a special name (for them).
M: No. A current name?
F: No, no. An old one.
K: Bamuikala bule (where those lived who were not married).
F: Yes, yes. Tell (me).
K: Bachelor quarters. [repeats slowly] Quarters for those who lived unmarried.
F: Mu...
M: Yes.
F: Bamuikala?
K: Bamuikala bule.
F: Ah, so (it means) someone who lives bule.
K: Bule means [in French] he has no wife. That is not good.
M: Mm.
F: Ah, you see. Because nowadays one says this to insult someone.
K: Yes.
F: Muikala bule.
K: Yes, muikala bule is something like a swear-word.
M: Mm.
F: You see?
K: It is like an insult.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes.
M: Mm.
F: Still nowadays?
K: Nowadays.
M: Yes.
F: Muikala bule.
M: Yes.47
21. F: mu: nani: mu musique/ sawa niliona: leo kwa shi niliona: programme moya: kwa: ilitoka trente six: trente: kama trente six: trente sept: ah: balikuwa: inaitwa: fête indigène/
M: eheh/ fête indigène/
F: fête indigène/
M: mm/
F: eh?
M: mm/
K: kama iko na jina fête indigène:
M: mm/
K: ilikuwa fête ya watu weusi/
F: oui/ ile minasikia/
M: mm/
F: ile minasikia/ na walikuwa na ma: mapro: programmes: na: niliona tena: chanson [searches]: chanson: oc: oc: à l’occasion: quelque chose comme ça:
K: oui/ occasion de marriage: ou d’un deuil:
F: eh? en kiSwahili/ donc: ile wakati balikuwa: mulikuwa na magroupes ya: ya musiciens: déjà: mu trente sept?
M: [with emphasis] oui/
K: ...?...
F: kuli: kuimba mu Swahili?
M: Matamtam:
K: mu kiSwahili/ Matamtam: oui/
M: na mu kyakwabo bo benyewe/
K: balibakia mu kyakwabo/
M: kila: kila: kila mm musicien: ba: baorchestres yabo: enfin: banapika matambours:
F: baba kupika matu: matambours ni musique ya: ya: ya zamani/ ya bankambo/
M: mm/
F: mais ile ya musique ya tu kucheza naye etcetera?
K: rumba?
F: rumba/
K: ...?...maaccordéons?
F: eeh/
M: aaah: ile ilikuwa...
K: [overlapping] kulikuwa maaccordéons: kulikuwa maguitares/
M: mm/ ikoako/
F: baBaba Gaston:
M: kucheza maringa ao/
K: Baba Gaston: minaona ni wa sasa/
M: aah ni wa sasa/ F: ni wa sasa?
M: mm/ Baba Gaston...
K: Baba Gaston wa sasa/
F: aah/
K: mais zamani zamani zamani kulikuwa: eeeh [searching] ma...?...: ma:
M: ...?... xylophones:
K: oui des tamtams là:
F: tamtams?
K: oui/
F: babitali non?
K: bitali ilikuwa ile: nzenze ile:
M: nzenze/
K: nzenze comme guitare/
F: ndiyo/
K: nzenze wa ...?...
F: oui/ na wa ku: kuse: ku: kuimba mu Swahili?
K: balikuwa imba mu Swahili: bengine kiBemba:
M: eeh: kiBemba/
K: Nyasa: walikuwa nacheza na yake avec le tambour là bum bum bum: bum bum bum bum/ Nyasaland:
F: eheh/
K: baRundi/
M: eeh/
K: balikuwa mingi na Union Minière/
F: oui/
M: mm/
K: balikuwa banacheza ile danses ya kiRundi yabo/
M: danses yabo/
F: eeh/
K: oui oui/
F: eh/
K: oui/
21. F: (To take up Swahili) in music now, today I saw a program that had come out in thirty-six, thirty, around thirty-six, thirty-seven (in which they announced something) called fête indigène, native party.
M: Yes, fête indigène.
M: Mm.
F: Right?
M: Mm.
K: If it was called fête indigène...
M: Mm.
K: ....it was a party for black people.
F: Yes. That I understand.
M: Mm.
F: That I understand. They had these programs and what I also saw that a song [searches], a song (would be played) “on the occasion of” or something like that.
K: Yes. The occasion being a marriage or a death.
F: You see? (And the song was) in Swahili. So you had groups of musicians already in thirty-seven?
M: [with emphasis] Of course.
K: ...?...
F: Singing in Swahili?
M: There were these Tamtams.48
K: In Swahili. The Tamtams, yes.
M: (In Swahili) but also in the various native languages of the performers.
K: They kept their native languages.
M: All the musicians and their orchestras played the drums.
F: Baba, playing the drums that is the music of the olden days, of the time of the ancestors.
M: Mm.
F: But what about the music to dance to, and so forth?
K: Rumba?
F: Rumba.
K: ...?... with accordions?
F: Yes.
M: Aah, those existed...
K: [overlapping] There were accordions and guitars.
M: Mm, they were (played).
F: (For instance) the group of Baba Gaston.
M: Playing the maringa49 dances, or....
K: I think of Baba Gaston as a contemporary (musician).
M: Yes, he is contemporary.50
F: I see.
K: But really long ago there were, [searching] what was it again?
M: ...?... (they played) xylophones.
K: Yes, and those drums.
F: Drums?
K: Yes.
F: And there were those who played guitars, no?
K: The guitars were those (instruments called) nzenze.51
M: Nzenze.
K: A nzenze is like a guitar.
F: Yes.
K: Nzenze, from...?...
F: Yes. And the language, the singing was in Swahili?
K: There were those who sang in Swahili, others in Bemba.
M: Yes, in Bemba.
K: The Nyasa would play their music with the drum: boom boom boom, boom boom boom boom. (The people from) Nyasaland.
F: I see.
K: (And) people from Urundi.
M: Yes.
K: There were many of those with the Union Minière.
F: Yes.
M: Mm.
K: They performed the dances of their Rundi tradition.
M: Their dances.
F: I see.
K: Yes, yes.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
22. F: na ile musique ya s: ya sawa sasa na bitali: ilianza: environ: ali: ilianza: mwaka gani?
M: oh/ ya ma gi: guitares?
F: maguitares na:
M: attends/ saa ile mi: mi nilipikaka na mi guitare:
K: ...?... trente sept: trente huit...
M: nazani...
F: trente sept: trente huit?
M: no no no no/
K: ...?... avant eh?
M: mu ma:
K: trente quatre?
M: ma:
K: trente deux?
M: vers: les années quarante/
K: njo ya kule ku quarante/
M: eeh: les années quarante/ parce que unaona: eh: tuseme hapa kwetu ku Lubumbashi: maguitares haikuwa mingi: haikuwa kwanza inexistent d’ailleurs: parce que: Likasi njo alikuwa nayo: kulikuwa François Kalabanga:
K: oui/
M: eeh? François Kalabanga na ule: mm: mwenzake alikufwa: Pierre M: Mbaka Mbaka Pierre/
K: oui/
M: oui/ c’est dans les annèes quarante/ parce que mi nilikuwa: na kama tunakwenda kupika futbol:
K: oui/
M: ku Likasi: ile wakati:
K: hapana kupika futbol: kucheza futbol/
M: kucheza futbol/ [indignant] enfin/
K: voilà [chuckles]
F: alafu mu Swahili bora?
M: aah: kama minataka kuandika: mi hapana kusema...
F: [laughs]
K: ...?... kupiga futbol tu/ c’est kucheza/
M: eheh/
F: bon/ mulipiga futbol:
M: ...?...
F: mu Jadotville:
M: oui Jadotville: ilikuwa maa: maquarante? quarante: quarante: mais: quarante deux: quarante trois: quarante quatre/ guitares ile existaient déjà ku: ku Likasi/
22. F: And what was the year, approximately, when this kind of music, with guitars, came up?
M: Oh, you mean guitars?
F: Guitars and....
M: Wait, at that time I also played the guitar.
K: ...?... in thirty-seven, thirty-eight...
M: I think so.
F: Thirty-seven, thirty-eight?
M: No no no no.
K: ...?... (that was) earlier, right?
M: It was in ...
K: Thirty-four?
M: In...
K: Thirty-two?
M: Sometime in the forties.
K: It was back in the forties.
M: Yes, the forties. Because you see, let us say, here in Lubumbashi where we live there were not many guitars. First there were none at all. Likasi had them, there was François Kalabanga.
K: Yes.
M: Right? François Kalabanga and this buddy of his who died, Pierre Mbaka. Mbaka Pierre.
K: Yes.
M: Yes. It was in the forties. Because when we went to kick soccer...
K: Yes.
M: ...in Likasi, in those days...
K: Not “to kick soccer,” it is “to play soccer.”
M: Play soccer [indignant]. If you insist.
K: You see [chuckles]
F: But (how do you say it) in refined Swahili?
M: Well, if I wanted to write it I don’t say...
F: [laughs]
K: ...?... kick soccer. It’s “to play.”
M: Yes.
F: Alright. You played soccer.
M: ...?...
F: In Jadotville.
M: Yes, Jadotville. Was it in the forties? Forty, forty but (when exactly?) Forty-two, forty-three, forty-four. At that time there were already guitars in Likasi.
23. F: na guitares bali: bantu: ba: balikuwa na: na feza ya ku: kununua guitares ao?
M: aah: ah: ah:
F: ilikuwa...
M: ilikuwa matata sana kupata guitare hapa/
K: ilikuwa matata sana/ ao wazungu wanakuya bana?falopa boy/
M: eheh/
K: parce que unaona zamani hapa muntu alikuwa na mali: ni paka boy/
M: paka boy ah/
K: boy anakuwa na muzuri kupita si baclercs/
M: eheh/
F: eheh/ ndiyo/
K: eh?
F: eeh/
K: boy anavwala cravatte:
M: mm/
K: basi kutupée ya muzungu/
M: mm/
K: anavwala bilatu: boy anavwala costume:
M: mm/
K: maneno ya muzungu/
M: mm/
K: kama muzungu anafanya déplacement: asema samedi atakwenda Likasi:
M: ah anakwenda Likasi/
K: boy anakamata costume ya muzungu: anakoma: ile soir...
M: anavwala/
K: ... anafanya musique:
M: [overlapping] ...?...
K: [claps] il mène à corde au cou: bwana atakuya huit heures: déjà à six heures:
M: eeh/
K: aliisha ku?..kuza: à la brush: anapika brosse brosse brosse:
M: mm: ahah/
K: il met ça dans la garde-robe/
M: ...?...
F: oui oui/
K: ah ndiyo/ kama boy: eh: ou: maphono/ iko paka boy ye wa kwanza kupata phono/
M: mm/
F: phono/ oui/
M: oui...?....
K: maneno muzungu...
M: ...mafacilités yote:
K: ndiyo/
M: iko anatoka...
K: ... muzungu analeta yee/
M: baboy balikuwa na mafacilités ...?..
K: boy ya bapata...
F: ... mais alafu bale baboy: si banaikala mu manyumba yabo karibu na wazungu ao mu...?...
K: ku cité indigène/
F: ku cité déjà/
M: ku nyumba ...?...
K: zamani kuko nyumba ya bazungu/
F: ya boyerie: oui mais: bule/
M: oui oui/
K: ku bale bazungu/
F: sasa balifanya nini na ma: maphono? baliku: kujiamuser namna gani?
K: uhuru/
M: eeh mu...
K: balipiga na iko ma...?...
F: ku boyerie quoi?
K: banakuwa ku boyerie:
M: oui/
K: mais oui oui qu’est que on dirait? oh oui/
M: mm/
F: oui/
K: ku boyerie/
M: kazi inaisha: eko tranquil kule/
K: il ...?... na bibi yake na batoto: anapiga musique yake/
F: très bien/ très bien/
23. F: About the guitars –did people have the money to buy guitars?
M: Aah, ah, ah.
F: It was...
M: It was a lot of trouble getting a guitar here (in Lubumbashi).
K: It was a lot of trouble. Unless Whites ...?...(gave one to their) boy.
M: Yes.
K: Because you see, in the old days here the only person who had resources was the boy (domestic servant).
M: Only the boy, yes.
K: A boy was better off than we clerks.
M: Yes.
F: I see. Yes.
K: You understand?
F: Yes.
K: A boy would wear a tie.
M: Mm.
K: One the White had thrown away.52
K: He wore shoes, the boy, and a suit.
M: Mm.
K: Because (he got them) from the White.
M: Mm.
K: When the White travelled, lets say on a Saturday he was going to Likasi.
M: Ah, he went to Likasi.
K: The boy took the White’s suit, pressed it, and the same evening...
M: ... he put it on.
K: ... and played music.
M: [overlapping] ...?...
K: He does with him what wants (lit. he leads him with a rope around his neck). If the Bwana was going to be back at eight, already at six o’clock...
M: Yes.
K: ... when he was done with thoroughly brushing (the suit)...
M: Mm. Ahah.
K: ...he put it in the wardrobe.
M: ...?...
F: Yes, yes.
K: Ah, yes. It was the boy – or take the phonograph. In the beginning, only the boy had access to a phonograph.
M: Mm.
F: A phonograph, yes.
M: Yes. ...?...
K: Because the White...
M: ... had all the facilities.
K: Yes.
M: He would leave...
K: ... (it was) the White who would make them available to (the boy).
M: The boys had facilities...?...
K: The boy had them.
F: But those boys, didn’t they live in their houses close to the Whites or in ...?...
K: In the township.
F: In the township, already then.
M: In a house...?...
K: In the old days the house was (on the lots) of the Whites.
F: A boyerie, yes but that was shabby.
M: Yes, yes.
K: At the places of those Whites.
F: So, now what did they do with the phonographs? How did they use them for their amusement?
K: (It was) independence.53
K: The would play (the phonograph) and there were...?...
F: In the boyerie, I assume.
K: They were in the boyerie.
M: Yes.
K: However, yes, yes. How should one put it? Oh yes.
M: Mm.
F: Yes.
K: (Being) in a boyerie.
M: When the work was finished and you would have your peace there.
K: One would be with his wife and children and play his music.
F: Very well. Very well.54
24. ile madisques ya: ya mwanzo: unakumbuka tena?
K: kulikuwaka madisques ya bapoloka/
M: mm oui/
K: aaaah/ [searching]
M: oui ma:
K: iko...
M: ... kwanza: mm...
F: pa lukamba?
M: unajua: Albert:
K: oui/
M: unajua ma: madisques ya zamani ilikuwa inatoka ku baZululand/
K: ilikuwa toka ku baNdebele: ku baEnglish/
M: ben: ku baNdebele/
K: ku Rhodesie/
F: eeh/
M: eh/ kwa Zululand/
K: kutoka kule kulikuwa mingi madisques ya kiNdebele/
M: [overlapping] mm/ mm/
F: kiNdebele aah/
K: kiKabanga...
M: na baPortugais/
K: na baPortugais/
F: na baPortugais vilevile/
M: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: eheh/ oui/...?...
K: après: njo kulikuwa sasa madisques ya: ya Kinshasa/
M: eh Kinshasa/
F: banani? Jean Bosco?
M: oui/
K: après/
M: après/
F: alianza mu: cinquante eh? non?
K: après/ après/
M: oui oui/
F: sasa: ile Swahili yake/
M: aah...
K: Swahili ataweza...
M: ... ataweza kuwa na Swahili sawasawa yetu: mais:
K: sawasawa yetu: mais anakamata Swahili bora kidogo/
F: bora kidogo?
M: mm/
K: ndiyo/
M: mm/
K: na pale ...?... kama ile aliimba: zamani nilikuwa mpishi/
M: mm/
K: nyama ililungula.
M: mm/
K: ça c’est ki: kiSwahili gani kile?
F: bon/
K: iko na disque moya anaimba vile/
F: oui oui/
K: zamani ilikuwa mpishi/
M: mm/
K: nyama ililungula/
M: mm/
K: ni kiSwahili ya ...?...
M: oui/
F: kuwa upishi/
K: nilikuwa mpishi/
F: nili: kuwa/
K: nilikuwa mpishi/ ça veut dire il était cuisinier/
F: oui/
K: il a fait...?... [claps]
F: oui/ ma: eko na: na mimbo ingine très très: très très bons eh?
K: oui mais:
M: [with emphasis] oui/
K: oui mais: iko na maana yake muzuri/
M: iko na maana yake/ yee anaimbaka mimbo yake ya maana/
K: ya maana/ oui/
F: ya?
K: ya maana/
M: ya maana/
F: ya maana/
K: ndiyo/ avec signification/
M: oui oui/
F: masimango ni mubaya/
K: allez oui oui/
M: mm/
K: critiquer quelq’un ça...?...
F: burafiki na milele/
K: oui/ voilà/
M: mm/
24. Do you still remember the first records that came out?
K: The records of bands that played polkas.
M: Mm yes.
K: Aaaah. [searching]
M: Yes, there were...
K: There were....
M: ... the first ones, mm.
F: On the wire?
M: You know, Albert.
K: Yes.
M: You know, the old ones were records that appeared among people from Zululand.
K: They came from the Ndebele, people from the British colonies.
M: From the Ndebele.
K: In Rhodesia.
F: I see.
M: Yes, from Zululand.
K: A lot of records in Ndebele came from there.
M: [overlapping] Mm, mm.
F: In Ndebele, I see.
K: (Also in) Kikabanga.
M: And there were the Portuguese.
K: And the Portuguese.
F: And the Portuguese also.
M: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: I see. Yes. ...?...
K: After that was the time when records came from Kinshasa.
M: Yes, Kinshasa.
F: Who were (the musicians)? Jean Bosco?
M: Yes.
K: (He was) later.
M: Later.
F: He began in fifty, right? Or not?
K: Later, later.
M: Yes. Yes.
F: Now, how about his Swahili.
K: (His) Swahili, he would have....
M:... he would have a Swahili like ours, but...
K: Like ours but he uses a bit of refined Swahili here and there.
F: A bit of refined (Swahili)?
M: Mm.
K: Yes.
M: Mm.
K: And in that song, when he sang long ago, I was a cook.
M: Mm.
K: And nyama ililungula (the meat was burned).
M: Mm.
K: What kind of Swahili is that?
F: Alright (let me understand that).
K: He has one record on which he sings about this.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Long ago I was a cook.
M: Mm.
K: The meat was burned.
M: Mm.
K: Whose Swahili is this?
M: Yes.
F: (He sings about) being a cook.
K: I was a cook, (he says).
F: I was...
K: I was a cook. [In French] That means he was a cook.
F: Yes.
K: He made...?... [claps]
F: Yes. He has other songs, really good ones, right?55
K: Yes, but.
M: [with emphasis] Yes!
K: Yes. At any rate, what he does well is to give them meaning (lit. he has his good meaning).
M: There is meaning in his songs. The songs he sings have meaning.
K: They have meaning, yes.
F: They are what?
K: Meaningful.
M: Meaningful.
F: Meaningful.
K: Yes. [in French] With significance.
M: Yes, yes.
F: Masimango ni mubaya.
K: There you go, yes, yes.
M: Mm.
K: [In French] To criticize someone that is...?...
F: Burafiki na milele.56
K: Yes. There you are.
M: Mm.
25. F: bon/ Swahili mu: mu mimbo/ tena mu: sawa vile nilis: tulisema mu mapièces de théâtre/ he?
K: oui Jean/ bon/ zamani hapana kuku mapièces de théâtre tuko tunafanya/ mais minayua ile tuko tunafanya siye avec Père Ansgaire/
M: oui/
K: ça en Français/
M: [clears his throat] oui/ mais ku masomo ile/
K: ku masomo ndiyo ah oui: ...c’était encore...?...
M: oui oui/
K: oui/ c’est: alafu haikuwa ...?...kiSwahili/
F: [overlapping]... mais alafu ilikuwa mu Français? ilikuwa mu Français/
K: mu Français/ oui/
M: oui mu Français/
Ka a: hakukuwake ya kiSwahili/
M: ya kiSwahili? mm: mm mm/ no/ je ne vois pas/
K: parce que: mathéâtres tuko tunafanya: ilikuwa: bamissionnaires/
M: mm/
K: tunafanya théâtre mais: ils invitent le blancs/
M: ah oui/
F: ...?...
K: donc hatuweza kufanya: pièces de théâtre en Swahili:
M: [overlapping] en Swahili: non/
K: bazungu habasikie kitu/ [claps]
F: aah/
K: donc il fa: fallait faire ça en Français/
M: en Français/
F: ah oui/
K: ah oui/
M: mm/
K: mi nilikuwa nacheza mathéâtres mingi/
M: oui oui/
F: oui?
K: [with emphasis] mingi/
M: wee: mingi sana/
K: mingi: ya ...?...mingi/
M: mm/
K: et j’étais le prémier chantre de la mission Saint Jean/
M: mm/ kabisa/
F: chantre?
K: chantre/
F: oui le chanteur/
K: chanteur si vous voulez/
F: muimbazi/
K: muimbaji/
F: baji/
K: muimbaji/
M: mm/
K: un chantre/
F: ku: ku kanisa ao?
K: ku ka: na ku kanisa na mathéâtres/
M: mm mathéâtres/
F: mathéâtres?
K: oui/
F: ah bon?
K: oui oui/ nilikuwa na sauti: nzuri kabisa/
F: hapa sasa/
K: oh je deviens vieux mon cher/
M: oui oui/
K: avec age/
F: [to Matafari] ah ule: si anabakia kijana yee?
M: mais...?...
F: na sauti yake:
M: [chuckles]
F: na mwili yake: askofu/
K: [chuckles] parce que he: Jeans se mêle dans les bières: là:
M: eeh/
K: mois je ne peux pas ça/
25. F: Allright, so much about Swahili in songs. Then, as we discussed (earlier), (Swahili was used) in theatrical plays, right?
K: Yes. Jean.57 Alright. In the old day there were no such plays that we did (in Swahili). But I know that we did some with Père Ansgaire.
M: Yes.
K: And they were in French.
M: [clears his throat]. Yes. But that was at school.
K: At school, yes, of course. What was it again, ...?...
M: Yes, yes.
K: Yes. That was not...?... in Swahili.
F: [overlapping]...but it was in French. It was in French.
K: In French, yes.
M: Yes, in French.
K: There were no plays in Swahili.
M: In Swahili? Mm mm mm. No. I don’t see any.
K: Because the plays we performed, that was (organized by) the missionaries.
M: Mm.
K: We did the theater but they invited the Whites.
M: Ah yes.
F: ...?...
K: Therefore we couldn’t do plays in Swahili.
M: [overlapping]. In Swahili, no.
K: The Whites wouldn’t have understood a thing. [claps]
F: I see.
K: So it had to be done in French.
M: In French.
F: Ah yes.
K: Ah yes.
M: Mm.
K: I was in many plays.
M: Yes, yes.
F: Really?
K: [with emphasis] Lots of them.
M: You were in lots of them.
K: Many. Of ...?... many.
M: Mm.
K: And I was the first chantre at Saint Jean mission.
M: Mm, and how.
F: Chantre?
K: Chantre.
F: Yes (now I understand): the (lead) singer.
K: Singer, if you wish.
F: Muimbazi (in Swahili)
K: [correcting me] Muimbaji.
M: Mm.
K: A chantre.
F: In the church, or?
K: Both in the church and in theater performances.
M: Mm, in theater performances.
F: In theater performances?
K: Yes.
F: Is that so?
K: Yes, yes. I had a very good voice.
F: Even now.
K: Oh, I am getting old, my dear fellow.
F: [to Matafari] Ah, this one stays young, doesn’t he?
M: But...?...
F: As far as his voice is concerned.
M: [chuckles]
F: And his body, like a bishop.
K: [chuckles] Because Jean gets mixed up with all that beer.
M: Yes.
K: I can’t do that.
26. F: paka unakumbuka tena ingine: kintu ingine juu ya mas: Swahili? ya kunisaidia ile mambo? lu: ni vraiment lugha kwenu/ maneno si: mara ingine: mina: hapana banani: bananis: bananiambia: aaah lakini Swahili: ts: si lugha: kweli/ non?
K: attention/
F: na minashangaa/ bale bantu banasema vile: beko na lugha: na lugha gani? paka Swahili: ki: kikwabo kiloko kiloko tu:
M: mm/
F: na Français/
M: mm/
F: sasa: kama niko na lugha moya tu: sawa mi nilizaliwa na: na kiAllemand/
M: mm/
F: mi siwezi kusema si lugha: si lugha/ si minaona: tumia hii lugha mu fasi yote: wakati yote: na bantu wote: Swahili/ donc: mweye: mu: mu roho: munaona Swahili: namna gani? kiSwahili: ni vraiment lugha: complète?
K: Swahili: kwa leo: ni lu: ni ru: ni lugha complète/
F: oui/
K: sababu gani? maneno mingi wanatuimia ile kinywa/
M: mm/
K: mingi wanatumia kinywa/ mu English: paka kiSwahili: maneno ya nini? kunatoka tu Daresalama:
M: oui/
K: watu wa Uganda: watu wa Bukavu: watu wa Kisangani: paka Swahili/ paka Swahili/
M: mm/
K: donc ça devient une langue véhiculaire kabisa/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/
F: [to Matafari] na vile wee una: una: unawaza namna gani?
M: paka vilevile tu/
K: oui/
M: sasa vile anasema: sababu unaona: tangu baKisangani: hata baBukavu: bawapi: banakuya:
K: Swahili/
M: kama banasema Swahili yabo: yee na mi tutasikia/
K: tutasikia/
F: mutasika/
K: oui/
F: hamuna na kintu: ina: inamileta: nani: inamiletea magumo ya: ya expression: non?
K: hapana/
M: hapana/ hapana/
K: hapana: hata kidogo/
F: hata kidogo/
K: hata kidogo/
M: hapana/ hapana/
F: sawa mara ingine tutaweza: hata kufundisha ku université ku Swahili yetu/ non?
K: tunaweza kufundisha/
M: ah oui/
K: tuko tunafundisha/
M: mm/
K: tunafundisha/
F: ah mi: minafu...?...
K: kuko wazungu ingine: banakuya hapa anatafuta muntu wa kufikila mangaribi:
M: mm/
K: anafundisha: yee na watoto yake kiSwahili/
M: mm/
K: ndiyo/
26. F: Can you think of anything else on the subject of Swahili, something that would help me in this project (of mine)? Swahili is truly your language. (I am asking these questions) because sometimes certain people tell me, aah, Swahili is not really a language. No?
K: Careful.
F: And that surprises me. People who talk like that, what kind of language to they have? Swahili and a little of the language of their region.
M: Mm.
F: And French.
M: Mm.
F: Now, I have one language, I was born with German.
M: Mm.
F: I could not say this isn’t a language. What I observe (here) is that the language that is being used everywhere, at all times, and by everyone is Swahili. So, in your mind, how do you see Swahili? Is Swahili really a complete language?
K: Swahili, nowadays, is a complete language.
F: Yes.
K: Why? Because many use this language.
M: Mm.
K: Many use the language. In the former British colonies, only Swahili. Why? It came from Dar es Salaam.
M: Yes.
K: So it becomes a truly vehicular language.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: [to Matafari] And you, how do you think about that?
M: Just the same.
K: Yes.
M: Nowadays, as he said, (it is spoken) beginning with the people from Kisangani, or from Bukavu, and from who knows where. When they come here...
K: Swahili.
M: ... and speak their Swahili he and I are going to understand it.
K: We’ll understand it.
F: You’ll understand it.
K: Yes.
F: You have no problems whatsoever with expressing yourselves. No?
K: No.
M: No. No.
K: No, not the slightest.
F: No the slightest.
K: Not the slightest.
M: No. No.
F: For instance, it would be possible for us to teach even at the university in our Swahili. No?
K: We can teach in it.
M: Ah, yes.
K: We teach.
F: Well, I teach...?...58
K: There are certain Whites who come here and look for a person who can come in the evening...
M: Mm.
K: ...and teach his children Swahili.
M: Mm.
K: Yes.
27. F: oui/ oui/ mais: quand même: sawa nilisema: nilikutana bantu wanasema ooh: ts: si lugha: ya kweli tu/
K: ...?...
M: oh: oh: oh/
K: parce que .../... lugha Swahili: hata bulaya leo:
M: mm/
K: kama minafika bulaya:
F: ah/
K: na wee tuko tunaonana:
F: eh/
K: tutatumia kinywa gani?
F: ah Swahili/
K: Swahili/
M: mm/
F: maneno shee: ts: tunazobelea/
K: ma: ndiyo/ iko mingi bazungu balitoka hapa mingi baBelges:
M: iko kule/
K: ilikuwa dans: après indépendance mingi kiSwahili/
M: mm/
K: unakwenda Kigoma:
F: na Swahili yabo/
K: Swahili ya: oh: mbulumbulu/
F: oui/
M: mm/
K: Swahili ya bulebule ile/
F: oui/
K: tunaweza kusikilizana/
F: hapana bulebule: bulubulu/
K: mbulumbulu/
M: mm/
F: si njo baSudafricains njo?
K: mbulumbulu eeh?
F: oui/
M: mm/ [chuckles]
K: eh bon: Swahili ya ovyoovyo/...
F: ya Boers/
K: haina ku ...?... Boers: ya mbulumbulu ya ovyoovyo ile/ bon/ tunaweza kusikilizana/
F: eh/
K: mais Swahili bora: iko Swahili bora/
F: eeh/
K: iko sawa kiFransa/
F: eeh/
K: hii Français tunasema hapa: Zaire/ ce n’est pas vraiment comme les Parisiens eux mêmes/
M: non/
F: eh bon/
K: pas comme les Français eux mêmes/
M: mm/
K: shee tuna: Français tunasema d’ailleurs/ bo sema d’allieurs/
F: d’allieurs?
K: mais oui/
F: [chuckles]
K: oui: example/
F: [chuckles] hata mu France: marégions inaachana tu/
K: ndiyo ndiyo/ ndiyo/
M: mm/
27. F: Yes. Yes. Still, as I said, I have met people who said (Swahili) is not a real language.
K: ...?...
M: Oh, oh, oh.
K:: Because the Swahili language, even in Europe nowadays...
M: Mm.
K: When I get to Europe.
F: Ah.
K: And you an I we see each other.
F: Yes.
K: What is the language we are going to use?
F: Well, Swahili.
K: Swahili.
M: Mm.
F: Because we are used to it.
K: Yes. There were many Whites, Belgians, who left this place.
M: They are there (in Europe).
K: It was after independence when many (went away speaking) Swahili.
M: Mm.
K: You go to Kigoma...
F: With their kind of Swahili.
K: A Swahili, oh, mbulumbulu.
F: Yes.
M: Mm.
K: A Swahili bulebule.
F: Yes.
K: (Still) we can communicate.
F: Not bulebule (but) bulubulu.
K: Mbulumbulu.
F: Doesn’t that (expression) refer to South Africans?
K: Mbulumbulu, really?
F: Yes.
M: Mm. [chuckles]
K: Well alright, the worthless kind of Swahili...
F: ...of the Boers.59
K: It has nothing to do with the Boers. Mbulumbulu means worthless. Alright, we can communicate.
F: Yes.
K: But refined Swahili is refined Swahili.
F: Yes.
K: It is like French.
F: I see.
K: The French we speak here in Zaire, which isn’t exactly like the one of the Parisians.
M: No.
F: Yes, alright.
K: Not like the French themselves (speak it).
M: Mm.
K: We and the French speak it differently. They speak it differently.
F: D’ailleurs?
K: Of course.
F: [chuckles] 60
K: Yes, (it was just) an example.
F: [chuckles] Even in France (French) differs according to region.
K: Yes. Yes. Yes.
M: Mm.
28. F: una: unaitalenda: enfin: mambo i: mambo itaenea: endelea namna gani? juu ya Swahili/ sawa bengine wanasema: oooh: wakati itakayokuja: ku mu l’avenir:
K: oui/
F: utaona Lingala hapa/
M: aaaah ça: ça: ile: ....?... inataka kuingiza: politique mule ndani/
F: eeh/
K: oui/
F: eh/
K: parce que wakati...
M: politique ya colonisation yee...?.../
F: mais kwa bantu?
K: bantu hapana/ alishindwa eh? alishindwa Mobutu/
M: aliisha kusema...?...
K: [overlapping] batu yote hapa na watoto kutumia: Lingala/
M: eeh/
K: mais:
M: mais: mm/
F: mais/ [pauses] kweli/ batoto wa sasa: si banasikia Lingala?
M: batoto ya sasa?
F: ah/
K: batoto yake yee banasikia Swahili/ ba...
M: bantu mingi kiS...
F: ...?... Lingala/ Lingala/
K: Lingala?
M: ooh/ non/
F: non? si habafundaka ku: ku madisques?
K: ...?...
M: banasikia...
K: [overlapping] unaona bo banasikiake/ habayue kusikilizana...
M: banaonana na benzako: wata...
F: no: habaseme?
K: banasikia mots moya moya: mbote/
F: mbote/
K: mbote/
M: mm/
K: yambo eh/
M: eeh/
K: banasikia/
Fa: mobali/
K: ....?...okeyi wapi?
F: bolingo na ngai/
K: eeh/...?... pour causer: c’est toujours le théâtre: les musiques/
F: oui/
K: hapa minasema okeyi wapi?
F: eeh/
M: mm/
K: mi sisemake kiMangala: mi sisikie kiMangala.
F: donc wee hamuona chance hata: kama: kama Lingala itakamata?
K: minaona Lingala itakamata hapana/
M: non/
K: non/
M: oui/
K: peut-être ku wao:
F: Kisangani ndiyo eh?
M: ah: kule kule kule...
K: [overlapping] kwabo...
M: ...?... ndiyo/
K: ...?...
M: da: d’ailleurs: ...?...kwabo: de naissance banaparler ile:
K: lugha kwabo/
M: kikwabo:
F: eeh/
M: hata kama qui n’a pas: il n’a pas passé ku masomo maneno ya maorthographes: ile [pauses] eh?
K: huku hapana/ mu Shaba/
M: mais huku: ff: non/
K: kama unaona Shaba: anasema Lingala:
F: mm/
K: c’est pour se courvrir/
F: oui/
M: mm/
K: parce que ils ont peur/
F: ah/
M: mm/
K: mais kama hanatusurveiller:
F: oui/
M: mm/
K: tunatuma Swahili/
F: oui/
M: bon mi minaonana: na:
K: oyebidi Lingala: pourquoi ...?...
M: père...?... niseme Mangala: mon dieu: mon dieu/
K and M: [laugh]
M: ça ne peut pas se faire quand même/
F: mais minaona sasa kwa université: par: par example eh?
K: oui/
F: paka Swahili/
K: oui/
F: kwa étudiants/ kama una: uko natembea kule kwenu ku faculté eh?
K: oui/
F: il y a dix ans: ilikuwa Lingala Lingala ...?...
K: oui/
F: sasa: Swahili/
M: mm/
K: njo minakuambia: Swahili hawezi kumalizika...
M: mm/
K: paka leo/
F: ah/
M: hawezi kumalizika/
K: peut-être dans les jours à venir:
M: oooh/
F: dans: mu Union Minière: enfin: de: Gécamines?
K: Swahili/
F: Swahili/
K: Swahili/
M: [aside to someone] weka dirisha pale/
F: bon: [checking the tape] ina: inataka ku: kumalizika sasa/ bon: merci baba: aksanti: nakupigia aksanti sana:
M: eheh/ [chuckles]
F: ulinisaidia...
[recording ends]
28. F: ...?... this should do (about the present) but how will it go on? As far as Swahili is concerned. For instance, some say, ooh, in times to come, in the future...
K: Yes.
F: ...you are going to see that Lingala (is spoken) here.
M: Aaah, that. That is something ...?... (Lingala) would have to be introduced as a political measure.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
K: Because the time when...
M: (As) a policy of colonization.
F: But (what if it came) from the people?
K: Not from the people. He failed, didn’t he? Mobutu failed.61
M: He did say ...?...
K: [overlapping] All the people here, including the children, should use Lingala.
M: Yes.
K: But.
M: But, mm.
F: But. [pauses] Isn’t it true that the young people nowadays understand Lingala?
M: The young people nowadays?
F: Yes.
K: His children understand Swahili. They...
M: (For) the mass of the people it is Kiswahili.
F: ...?... Lingala, (we are talking about) Lingala.
K: Lingala?
M: Ooh, no.
F: No? Don’t they learn it all the time for the records (of popular music)?
K: ...?...
M: They understand...
K: [overlapping] You see, they understand but cannot communicate (in Lingala).
M: They observe their age mates and they are going....
F: No, (what I want to know) don’t they speak it?
K: They understand single words, mbote (for example).
F: Mbote.
K: Mbote.
M: Mm.
K: (It means) yambo, yes.
M: Yes.
K: They understand that.
F: (Or something like) mobali.
K: ...?... okeyi wapi?
F: Bolingo na ngai (my love).62
K: Yes. ...?... to make conversation, always about theater and music.
F: Yes.
K: Do I say okeyi wapi here?
F: No.
M: Mm.
K: If I don’t speak Lingala (it does not mean) I don’t understand Lingala.63
F: So you don’t see a chance that Lingala will stick?
K: As I see it, Lingala won’t stick.
M: No.
K: No.
M: No.
K: Maybe in their...
F: In Kisangani, it will, right?
M: Ah over there....
K: [overlapping] it’s their place
M: ...?... yes.
K: ...?...
M: By the way, ...?... it is their home language, they speak it from birth.
K: It is the language of their region.
M: Their home language.
F: I see.
M: If a person who has not gone through school and learned to write (Lingala) correctly, such a person [pauses], you understand?64
K: Not here in Shaba.
M: But here, no way.
K: If you observe someone in Shaba who speaks Lingala...
F: Mm.
K: ...it is to play it safe (lit. to cover himself).
F: Yes.
M: Mm.
K: Because they are afraid.
F: I see.
M: Mm.
K: But when they don’t watch us...
F: Yes.
M: Mm.
K:... we use Swahili.
F: Yes.
M: Alright, I meet with...
K: Oyebidi lingala (you speak Lingala)? What for ...?...
M: Father...?... I should speak Lingala? My God, my God.
K and M: [laugh]
M: You really can’t do that.
F: But what I see, for instance, at the university, right?
K: Yes.
F: (It’s) only Swahili.
K: Yes.
F: Among the students. When you walked around there at our Faculty, right?
K: Yes.
F: Ten years ago, it would have been Lingala, Lingala...?...
K: Yes.
F: Now it’s Swahili.
M: Mm.
K: That’s what I have been telling you, Swahili cannot possibly be abolished.
M: Mm.
K: From one day to the other...
F: I see.
F: ... it cannot disappear.
K: Maybe in days to come.
M: Oooh.
F: (And) in the Union Minière, or rather Gécamines?
K: Swahili.
F: Swahili.
K: Swahili.
M: [aside to someone] Put it on the window sill there.
F: Alright. [checking the tape] It is just about at the end. Fine. Thank you, baba. thanks. I thank you very much.
M: Alright. [chuckles]
F: You helped me...
[recording ends].

 

 


Notes

1 The Swahili designation mu/wazungu is difficult to translate because it has complex social, historical but no clear racial or color connotations. I have addressed that problem in several publications and also in notes to other texts. In this text, I opted for a single gloss instead of alternating between Whites, Europeans, expatriates. This sometimes becomes awkward, especially in the singular ("the White" or "a White") which is not really idiomatic. Still, the less elegant term is appropriate in a conversation about colonial memories.
2 A clumsy translation of uzungu (kizungu would have been the more usual term), the way of life, the language of the Whites. At that point I had mistakenly assumed that Matafari, like so many others, had begun his working life as a recruit from a rural region.
3 By using the respectful term of address I said something like: Tell me about it, nevertheless.
4 Kalundi says je suis un muTabwa, the first of many instances of code-switching, a term I like to reserve for complete French sentences in a conversation in Swahili. Single terms and short phrases in French are even more frequently used by all three participants in this exchange (more frequently also in comparison with other conversations deposited in Archives of Popular Swahili). In translations of some other texts I noted such code-switching. Here I decided not to do this in order to avoid yet another source of interrupting the flow of conversation (see general notes above).
5 This is elliptic for "Does Ngoy, your colleague at Mwana Shaba, also come from that region?
6 The recording indicates that I am reacting to someone or some gesture outside the conversation.
7 He says kuchakulachakula (ECS -chagua), lit. choosing/picking this or that, garble.
8 This is the local form of ECS upawa.
9 Matafari’s elliptic remark refers to the social diversity of the population.
10 Here and later I use the name the mining company was given after its operations in the Congo were nationalized in the sixties. During most of Matafari’s career it was the Union Minière du Haut Katanga (UMHK).
11 This could be "Frank," first or second name of one of the recruiting agencies that operated at that time.
12 What Matafari tells me is not very well articulated but the gist is clear; he speaks of the effects of daily linguistic contact in a multilingual setting.
13 There is some confusion here. To my question whether they spoke Kabinda (i.e. Songye) at home Matafari responds with: "well, inchini," a way of ignoring rather than correcting a misunderstanding on my side. I had confused his ethnic group, the Songe of Katanga, with the Songye of the Kasai, popularly called Kabinda. In the passage that follows, my probing for the language spoken in the family left him confused until Kalundi clarified the sense of my question.
14Matafari says kya kwetu, short for kinywa kya kwetu, the language of our place. In other contexts, kikwetu is commonly used to refer to Katanga Swahili.
15 In the Swahili text Matafari makes a mistake (mi hapana kusikia, I don’t understand).
16Kaputula or kapitula is the local term for shorts. According to The Standard Dictionary it also means "influenza. (Prob. from Nyanja verb kubutula, cut off, introduced during the Great War when shorts became known in this part of East Africa, and used for influenza because it appeared simultaneously with the shorts!)."
17 Matafari was a bit confused by my question; Kalundi gets him back on track. I am not sure how to translate the designation for classes ("grades") and levels. Moyenne ("middle school") seems to refer to a level of secondary education.
18 When Matafari says orthography he does not mean just orthography (spelling) but "correct writing" (lexicon and grammar).
19 I had in mind Sarufi ya Kiswahili, Albertville: Procure des Pères Blancs, 1929, but it seems (see later) that this was not the text book used at St. Boniface.
20 What was the joke? Perhaps Kalundi was saying something like "any Swahili is good compared to the one spoken here."
21 Ernest Natalis published his manual in two parts: La langue Swahilie. Première Partie. Cours Méthodique and (coauthored with Guy Dubois) Deuxième Partie. Exercises. Liége: Editions F.U.L.R.E.A.C. 1960. In the first part he expresses his "profound and sincere gratitude" to, among others, "MM. Jean MATAFARI, de la tribu Songe-Luba, et Léonard Ngoy, de la tribu Muluba-Shankadi." He mentions that both "parlent un excellent swahili" (1960: 9-10).
22 Here and in many other instances my translation is guesswork – a statement of the perceived meaning of an utterance rather than a transposition of its lexicon and syntax.
23 Kalundi had worked in the colonial administration in Albertville/Kalemie.
24 This was Sacleux, Charles. Dictionnaire francais-swahili. Paris: Institut d'ethnologie, 1939, still one of the best available. But why did Matafari call it (just) "a vocabulary?" The physical description (a dark binding; dark green, to be precise) fits the dictionary. Of course, he could have used vocabulaire as a synonym (see the end of this paragraph).
25 Matafari used the word choyo here, greediness, selfishness – a vignette on education in colonial times.
26 I am not sure what to make of the date (1952). Who were the Whites that "arrived" then? The best guess is that Kalundi refers to the tenure of Governor R. Wauthion (1951-1955); see also the following note.
27 This must refer to inspections of households as part of the procedure to grant Congolese a "carte d’immatriculation," a document that, theoretically, granted them legal status equal to Europeans. See http://www.lepotentiel.com/afficher_article.php?id_edition=&id_article=26156 (where this practice is said to have started in 1952)
28 I must have realized that I was on the wrong track as far as Kalundi’s little book was concerned; therefore the new start with "another question."
29 An accurate description of the booklet that had also been my first guide.
30 Probably from Portuguese pequeno, little one; it was widely used as a disrespectful term for very young domestic servants ("boys") but also generally for African children. Calling an adult "boy" pikenini would be a double insult.
31 I consulted Achille Mutombo about ponoo. He was not familiar with the expression but offered a guess that seems plausible in the light of this exchange (see below): it comes from French porno, meaning obscene.
32 Kalundi uses the local form of ECS uchi, which can be "a vulgar word, the sexual organs," "dick-face" would be the word in American slang.
33 Achille Mutombo helped again when he told me that kapuni is often used as a synonym for kibengo, a complex notion that refers to behavior (including language use) that is appropriate among equals but offensive toward persons with whom one does not have what ethnologist call a "joking" relationship. A striking example (which I often observed) is verbal interaction with a mother of twins that is spiked with sexual allusions and innuendos.
34 "English" here refers to Bemba, spoken mainly in Zambia, a former British colony.
35 There are some bitter colonial memories packed in this example of reduced communication. Though he had never worked as a domestic servant, by choosing "Albert," his own Christian name, for the example he is about to give, Kalundi slips into a colonial role. It is safe to assume that many stories of insults and mockery Africans got away with circulated in colonial times.-- Somewhat surprising is that Matafari showed such a low opinion of Verbeken’s Petit Cours when he said it was just good enough for learning how to talk to a servant (but perhaps I had given him the clue when I threw in some typical pidgin commands as examples of White man’s Swahili). About Verbeken and the context of his work see Fabian 1991:148-57.
36 About A. Mélignon and his manifesto against the promotion of a low-standard Swahili see Fabian 1991:157-162.
37 Kalundi uses a verb I don’t recall hearing from another speaker, kusula, the local form of ECS kuzua, to make a hole in (with many related meanings).
38Kofordegeis how people heard the Flemish swear word god verdegge, a milder form of god verdomme, God damn, nom de Dieux in French.
39"Kamuchacha" Granat is also mentioned in the Vocabulaire: http://www2.fmg.uva.nl/lpca/aps/vol4/vocabulaireshabaswahili.html
40On the Etoile mine see the Vocabulaire.
41 Probably a reference to Verbeken’s Petit Cours.
42Kalundi uses a term I hear as paruku and take to be a local expression for parquet, the native court at the prosecutor’s office. See also the Vocabulaire.
43 Kalundi says utakula (the rest of the phrase is incomprehensible), you were going to eat, which sounds like a concession to my probing for corruption..
44 I kept repeating myself because I found it strange that a Franciscan missionary would have been a Swahili expert in Elisabethville. The local missionaries were Benedictines.
45Exchanges in which objects play a role are always difficult to transcribe and translate. This much is clear: Beer was served in capped bottles and I was waiting for an opener and a glass. That gave Kalundi (himself a teetotaler) and opportunity to treat me to some local drinking lore. No glasses were coming, we would drink from our bottles bilulu, something I had rarely observed before (in my experience even in the most modest household one would drink from glasses that were always kept filled to the brim). Again it was Achille Mutombo who explained the meaning kunywa kilulu. Not to be confused with its homonym kilulu, an insect, it probably is an onomatopoetic, mimicking the glugging sound of liquid running from a bottle.
46Matafari used the French term for bachelor, célibataire; Kalundi mentions the local expression mbaraka (or mbalaka) of unknown origin, not to be confused with its Swahili homonym (m)baraka, blessing.
47The historical fact that some recruits lived in bachelor quarters brought up several issues: I must have known that such quarters had a special name but could not recall it. Kalundi could not help me but offered a descriptive phrase in which being (or living) single is described as bule, a word with many (negative) connotations ranging from empty to gratuitous, useless, barren. It characterizes bachelorhood, not as a neutral contrast to a married state but as a deficiency and that explains why it can be used as an insult.
48 Tamtam was a current term, also among expatriates. It could have been the name of a specific group of performers but I take it to refer to a kind of event (such as a fête indigène).
49About the fashion of malinga ball-room dancing see the Vocabulaire.
50 I had thought of Baba Gaston as belonging to 1940s music scene [but see http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=Baba+Gaston&meta=]
51The term I use, bitali, is an example of phonological and morphological assimilation of loan words in Katanga Swahili: the gui- in French guitare is interpreted as the singular prefix ki-, plur. bi-. Such forms are becoming obsolete or sound old-fashioned (see the beginning of the following paragraph). When Kalundi places nzenze, a lamellophone (also known as sanza, likembe, mbira) in the same class as guitars he casually formulates a musicological insight into the role of guitars and the origin of guitar styles in modern Congolese music.
52Kalundi says kutupée, a French past participle of the Swahili verb kutupa, throw away. I have heard other examples (fungulateur, from kufungula, to open, was a current word for bottle-opener in Lubumbashi).
53Kalundi laconically says uhuru, a term seldom used in Katanga Swahili and without the resonance it has in East Africa. In the Congo the current term has been French indépendance, with local variants such as dépendant, (without the in, an unintended irony) or bantu-ized dipenda.
54 I now regret that I did not pursue this. Kalundi makes an important point about the ambivalent situation of domestic servants who often did demeaning work and lived in shabby quarters but also had advantages from being close to Europeans and away from the noisy and unsafe townships.
55This exchange did not go too well and I changed its direction. What had gone wrong? When I gave signs of not understanding, Kalundi thought that I had problems with the word mpishi (not likely; almost every expatriate employed one and most knew the Swahili term). What I did not understand at the time was the phrase nyama ililungula, the meat was scorched, nor why this should be an example of less refined Swahili, as Kalundi implied when he chose to quote from the song. The Standard Dictionary has "nyumba imeungua moto, the house has been (more or less) burned," which may give us an of idea what he had in mind and why he had reservations about Jean-Bosco Mwenda’s Swahili.
56 I am quoting from one of Mwenda’s most famous songs, lit. rejoicing over another’s misfortune is a bad thing, friendship is forever.
57 For a moment this sounded as if Kalundi was addressing me. In the sixties people from the Jamaa called me Baba Jean but he would not have called me by my first name. What happened was that the topic I brought up made him turn to Matafari whose Christian name was Jean.
58 The phrase is partly incomprehensible on the recording. What I had in mind was that I occasionally did use some local Swahili in teaching (giving explanations or discussing matters with students).
59The semantic detour we took here needs explaining. Memory and context let me hear mbulumbulu as a pejorative reduplication of mbulu, which I knew as an old-fashioned (and, as it seems, obsolete) term for Whites, derived from Afrikaans boer (probably used in Kikabanga/Fanagalo). This was a misunderstanding, caused by the fact that until now, when I searched the Standard Dictionary, I did not know the word mbulu, "a person who says meaningless things because of madness or weak intellect." Kalundi tried to clear this up with the help of a synonym, ovyoovyo, rubbish, valueless, and similar-sounding bulebule, a reduplication of bule (ECS bure), useless.
60Kalundi says d’ailleurs, by the way, but means autrement, differently (giving an example of Zairean usage?). Perhaps he had ailleurs, elsewhere, in mind – French is spoken differently in different places.
61 During the first meeting of Zairean linguists at the National University of Zaire in Lubmbashi, May 22-26, 1974, a delegation from Kinshasa attempted a kind of coup by proposing a resolution for Lingala as the national language but failed to get it adopted. (I was a participant in the panel the delegation had chosen as a forum and criticized the "linguistic" arguments that supposedly showed why such a development was inevitable.) Kalundi, at that time the administrator of the faculty of social sciences, knew what hat happened.
62 I don’t know what Kalundi’s phrase means. I am throwing in a few bits of Lingala. Bolingo na ngai probably occurs in most love songs (and most songs seem to be love songs). Mobali (tones not noted) means husband.
63 Kalundi does not say Lingala but kiMangala, a form that could be slightly pejorative.
64 Another elliptic statement. I think Matafari wanted to point out that, although some Lingala was spoken in Katanga, there was not litereracy in that language.




[Introduction]

[Text One]

[Text Two]

[LPCA Home Page]


© Johannes Fabian
The URL of this page is: http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/vol11/swahiliremembered1.html
Deposited at APS: 19 February 2009